KHC 207 - Do Hard Things: 22 Conversations to Help You Become Undeniable

We’ve pulled clips from 22 of our most viewed guests' conversations to bring you their experiences and advice on how they make themselves undeniable in life. Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Timestamps: 00:00:00 – Intro: Undeniable Guests 00:01:37 – Aaron Rodgers 00:04:39 – Andrew Huberman 00:07:55 – Chris Williamson 00:13:25 – Courtney Dauwalter 00:17:08 – Evan Hafer 00:21:03 – Kip Fulks 00:24:30 – Ken Rideout 00:25:12 – Levi Morgan 00:27:01 – Michael Chandler 00:34:03 – Ad Break (Ketone IQ & ALP) 00:35:48 – Nick Bare 00:38:16 – Remi Warren 00:41:23 – Andy Glaze 00:43:50 – Andy Stumpf 00:46:51 – Brian Deegan 00:50:26 – Craig Francis 00:59:58 – Dr. Andy Galpin 01:03:05 – Kilian Korth 01:07:37 – Max Jolliffe 01:10:44 – Rachel Entrekin 01:13:48 – Truett Hanes 01:18:00 – Jelly Roll Thank you to our sponsors: Ketone IQ: https://www.ketone.com/Cam use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription ALP: https://alppouch.com/ use code CAM for 10% off your first order LMNT: Visit https://drinklmnt.com/cam for a free sample pack with any purchase Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code CAM for 20% off & Free Shipping Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 15% off

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Cameron Hanes?

  I use Ketone IQ when I need to stay sharp for the long haul. Long runs, lifting, before I shoot my bow, even when I'm podcasting, anytime I want steady focus without crashing. What I like about it is how it feels. It helps me stay locked in during long efforts and mentally demanding sessions. Not jittery, not wired, just clear and steady. Ketones are your brain's preferred fuel source. So instead of that spiked caffeine feeling, the focus feels calm and controlled. It lets me push without leaning on caffeine or sugar. I'm not chasing another cup of coffee or something sweet just to get through a workout or a long day.

• 0:43Cameron Hanes?

  I can train, work, and think without that roller coaster of energy. Physically, I feel ready to go. Mentally, I'm locked in. That combination matters when you're putting in long hours and real work. Visit ketone.com backslash cam for 30% off your subscription order, plus receive a free gift with your second shipment. Or find Ketone IQ at Target stores nationwide in the hydration and protein aisle and get your first shot free. Warning: This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. No corporate playbook, just a brand that does its own thing and doesn't apologize for it. That's what got my attention. It's tobacco-free, comes in enough flavors that everyone on the crew finds one they

• 1:28Cameron Hanes?

  actually like, and four strength levels, three, six, nine, and 12 milligrams. So it fits you, not the other way around. Tuck one in, go run, go hunt, go put in the work. That's Alp. Head to alppouch.com and use code CAM for 10% off your first order.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  The mindset and the method that you preach and these outliers that you're bringing in, I mean, the people you're bringing into this, it's just freaking cool people.

• 1:58Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm. Oh, I know.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  And that, you know, like shine a spotlight on these interesting, very successful in their own way, all of them different, but they all have like a lot of commonalities too. When you start peeling back some work ethic, some like

• 2:17Cameron Hanes?

  They work their ass off.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Innovators, risk takers.

• 2:21Cameron Hanes?

  Believe in themselves.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Believe in themselves, a little bit of self-promotion, even though that can be an odd thing.

• 2:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  You see a lot of commonalities. They're just all going about it in a really different way.

• 2:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Most of them are just, they have this, whether it's quiet or loud, but this belief in themself. Because if you don't believe in yourself, as the cliche goes, how could anybody else believe in you? Right? So they believe in themselves whether they say it or not. Um, you know, you know, Courtney kind of undersells herself, but I know she believes in her heart, what she can do.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, she has a very humble demeanor.

• 2:59Cameron Hanes?

  Some people very loud, it's great. They believe in themselves and they're going to shout from the rooftop. But the point is, is like they're working their ass off to earn this belief in themself. And then they're just putting it out there. And what I've learned is from these outliers, and you included, is like you surround yourself with people like that, you can't help a fucking win.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  I think in general, you know, if you've been able to do something at a high level in your vocation, um, you know how hard it is to get to that point. And I think it gives you a keen interest and affection for mastery in other fields. And so I'm always just fascinated by other people who do things at a high level, who have figured out how to master a skill or multiple skills. And, um, and just when I, you know, when Joe gave me information and I did a big Instagram

• 3:59Speaker 02

  search of you and with you Paige, just was so impressed by the work that you've done, your mastery of this and your willingness to share this with other people and to create a platform to tell great stories. So for me, I just have so much respect because I know what it takes to be great at what I do. And it's the same focus in anything else, like we're just talking about down at the, uh, at the, at the range, like when you're great at something, you think, oh, I could just pick this shit up and it'd just be amazing.

• 4:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  It takes like, like Gladwell says, it takes like 10,000 hours to master something.

• 4:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  And so it just gives you such a keen respect for someone who's spent the time to become a master at something. And I think there's something just beautiful about that in life and we all have that inside us in some way. And I think some people have just, it's untapped, you know, either given up on a dream or got caught in the rat race. But to be able to meet you and to see what you're passionate about, when somebody's passionate about something too, is so inspiring. Just, you know, just talking to Joe and listen to his podcast all the time and seeing how much he loves hunting and, and bow hunting especially. And, uh, you know, listening to him call an MMA fight, even if you're not a fan, just like the excitement and the fun that him and DC have, um, it's just like, it kind of brings you into, you're like, oh man, like to see that passion for something, it just

• 5:26Speaker 02

  inspires you to like, want to learn more about it, I think for me, at least personally.

• 5:30Cameron Hanes?

  I like having outliers here because I feel like I can learn from an outlier, just to your point about somebody who has, they stand out in whatever field they do, for whatever reason, I can learn from somebody like that. You know, it doesn't really matter what the thing is, it's just how they've poured themselves into it. And it's, it's actually how Joe found me, same way. He was, he loves watching YouTube, still does, but he was watching me carry this rock up this mountain.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:56Cameron Hanes?

  And he's like, what the fuck is wrong with this guy? He's just carrying this big rock up a mountain. And then he's like, oh, watching me shoot the bow. And so in 2014, he sent this, he tweeted out and said, hey, Cameron Hanes, you want to come to LA and talk about training and bow hunting? And that was it, you know? And then, but it was just that, that same, what you just kind of alluded to is that passion for whatever, whatever it is, somebody pours themselves into it, it's hard to ignore.

• 6:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. The amazing thing about the human brain is that we can think about the past, the present, or the future, or a combination of past and present, or present and future. It's hard to think about all three at once.

• 6:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  But, you know, I think we imagine that, and you hear that people, you know, they focus too much on the future, future tripping, future. I don't think we do that as much as people think. I think we are rarely thinking about the future as much as people claim. And I think it's rare that we are fully present. I think we tend to think about the past a lot.

• 6:54Cameron Hanes?

  Too much?

• 6:54Speaker 03

  Too much.

• 6:55Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 6:55Speaker 03

  I mean, if you think about it, the, the best life is to remember the past if you need to, but to have the future pull you forward.

• 7:04Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  You know, and, and to be present in each day. I mean, I really believe that the unit of the day is the functional unit to really, you know, anchor oneself to the sunrise, the sunset, sleep at night. What are you going to accomplish that day? Maybe even need to divide the day into thirds, but at least the unit of the day. And then the unit of the week, you know, is not a coincidence and that we follow that. And, but, you know, the moment you start trying to think about what you're going to do for more than a week, maybe something you're going to do down the line, you put it on the calendar, but you can't really impact things out that far, except what you do right now.

• 7:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 7:40Speaker 03

  So I love, you know, the keep hammering slogan mantra, whatever you want to call it, law of nature for you.

• 7:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 03

  Um, applies because it's, it's that incessant, like now, now, now. You want to be better next year? You're now, what are you going to do today? And so I think archery clearly brings you into the moment. There's no question. I feel the only thing that's ever, you know, uh, not the only thing, but something that also brings me right into the moment is when I do my solo podcasts. It's always just me and Rob in the room.

• 8:12Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  When I think about what I need to accomplish at the beginning, I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to do this. I always allow myself four pages of one-sided notes, no teleprompter, despite what people say. And then I'm right as we start, I'm looking at the little bead in the camera, the little, and I'm, I always just think, my God, I don't know what to do. And then you just, you start segmenting.

• 8:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  Do the intro, do this, do this, do this. When you hit the end, you're like, well, that's how you do it. You break it down. It's sort of the, how do you eat the elephant? One bite at a time. So I think with archery, I also loved that, um, I love the sequence of steps is so fixed. I loved that.

• 8:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. But like knocking the arrow.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  Just putting the, putting the arrow in, you know? You know, I heard, you know, you dry fire it once, you destroy the bro. Great. I love rules.

• 8:57Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 8:58Speaker 03

  Cause it's like, there you go. I'm never going to drive.

• 8:59Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  So I was really slow, as you know, so I'm like checking every time. I love that the, like the details and how those matter, but I love it when there's a fixed sequence. Cause I do believe that if you can break things down into a sequence, well, then you can get better at each piece and each piece getting better will help you improve.

• 9:18Cameron Hanes?

  And yeah.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  But I know at the end of the day, it's also just reps.

• 9:21Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  Quality reps.

• 9:23Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 9:23Speaker 03

  You know, like with anything, podcasting, running, lifting. I mean, you know, people always probably ask you too, like, you know, what does it take to get really good at something? It's like about 10 years of reps and then just keep going and going and going.

• 9:40Speaker 04

  Most of the high performers that I know about are coming from a place of insufficiency. You know, they're trying to prove something to that parent, that teacher, that bully, that group of friends or whatever from their childhood, that they actually are worthy of love or praise or acceptance or admiration. And I think that you could track certainly through my twenties, the fact that, um, I think my fundamental like framing of who I was, was people might not like me or want to be around me because of the world I'd come up from being really unpopular and bullied in school. But if they need me, that's like close enough.

• 10:17Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 10:17Speaker 04

  That's a close proxy.

• 10:18Cameron Hanes?

  I see.

• 10:18Speaker 04

  So if I'm the guy in the front door of the club with all of the VIP bands.

• 10:23Cameron Hanes?

  You had the power.

• 10:23Speaker 04

  People need me.

• 10:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 04

  Now, obviously this is fundamentally flawed. Like you don't need to offer people things in return for them liking you or wanting you to be in their life. That's not the way that it works. But for me, I, I was so convinced that I was flawed and chronically meant to be alone, that I needed to be able to offer the world something in order to be accepted in that way.

• 10:45Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 10:46Speaker 04

  Um, and yeah, I think that you could see going on the reality TV stuff is just scaling that up. Like just give me more, give me more.

• 10:52Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 10:53Speaker 04

  More leverage, more scale, more exposure. And yeah, I think that wouldn't be too wrong to say, but it does, it still creeps up in other areas of life. You know, even with all of the self-work and all of the bits and pieces I've been exposed to over the last six or seven years, I still see it creeping back up. It's very important that I need to keep in check my fears of insufficiency or lack of confidence or lack of self-belief.

• 11:20Cameron Hanes?

  How does it crop up?

• 11:23Speaker 04

  Sometimes I feel like success is a fluke and imposter syndrome of nobody knows that I'm not supposed to be here.

• 11:34Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  I think you've mentioned this as well, the fact that it almost feels like one day someone's going to come out of the woodwork and go, oh, that this actually isn't your life.

• 11:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 04

  You actually don't deserve this.

• 11:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you're the lonely kid by yourself that nobody likes.

• 11:46Speaker 04

  You're not supposed to be here. Oh shit, we made a mistake. It's not supposed to be you. It's supposed to actually be that guy over there. And you go, I knew it all along.

• 11:53Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 11:53Speaker 04

  This is one of the strange things about the routines that you learn when you're a kid, because they just seep into all of the sinews of life and they're so hard to pull out. You know, you can change your approach with relationships at 30 and then 34 and then 38. And you've, you know, you've got perspective. You can at least see them in a different way. There's tons and tons of stuff from childhood that I simply can't remember. And yet I'm able to call on this like worldview of acceptance or lack of. And it's very difficult to deprogram in that way. I've spent a lot of time trying to deprogram stuff. So, you know, for anybody that has suffered with bullying as a kid, that felt lonely, that felt isolated, that feels like they need to prove something to the world,

• 12:37Speaker 04

  like I feel for you because that's me. And the only way, two ways, I suppose, actually, that I've found that have been pretty successful at helping me. One has been having an undeniable stack of proof that I am who I say I am. So Rogan calls it building a mountain with layers of paint.

• 12:53Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 12:54Speaker 04

  It's just one iteration after the next.

• 12:56Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 12:56Speaker 04

  Better, better, better, better. Each single time that you do something, you can get yourself to a stage where you've disproven your imposter syndrome so many times in the real world, that it just has to, it's crushed under this ridiculous weight of evidence.

• 13:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 13:13Speaker 04

  Right?

• 13:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 13:14Speaker 04

  There's no way that you could continue to exist. And the other side is to find, find people that just want you for you. You know, this is friends, this is family, this is partners.

• 13:24Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 13:24Speaker 04

  And if you've got someone who, there's no contingency for why they want to be around you.

• 13:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. That's hard though, because they know you as you now. And you now is like, you know, looks like a, a model, fit, popular, has power because you have a platform. So yeah, I mean, I understand that, you know, you can't, you have changed, but I think you're still the worry is like, I'm still that kid.

• 13:53Speaker 04

  Do they only want me because of now my position?

• 13:55Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 13:55Speaker 04

  And this is one of the problems of success. I think this is why you have, you know, actors that you find out about, their entire entourage was pushing them. Avicii, this famous DJ who didn't want to continue playing and all of the friends that were around him, his assistants and his managers and stuff, they, it looked like they were pushing him to continue to play because they were invested in that. Not only were they monetarily invested, but that was their status, that was their lifestyle, that was what they wanted to do. And they were prepared to push this guy to the stage where he had to take his own life. So you can, definitely when you start to gain accolade or success, the motivation of the people that are around you can be called into question.

• 14:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 04

  And if you've got that framing already, that maybe the world doesn't want me for me, you can, what was this, this quote that I heard?

• 14:50Speaker 04

  A negative mind will find any way to make the world fit his priors.

• 14:54Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 14:55Speaker 04

  So if you go into a situation adamant that this is, that you are unlovable, unwanted, broken, flawed, insufficient, you will manage to warp reality to be able to fit what you already believe.

• 15:09Cameron Hanes?

  Right. You think about like, that middle school girl who would love the mile runs and just to compete and run. And you think, so that was, I don't know, 30 years ago, right? Like, how does that happen where you're just somebody who enjoys running and now you're one of the, the most iconic women ultra runners in the world? How does that, is that just time? Is that just time and, and having a passion for something and just doing it because it's, your heart's full when you do it? Is that the secret?

• 15:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, I guess. I didn't know ultra running was a thing. Like, I know some kids, some people in the sport learned about it when they were a kid, you know, watched these 100 mile finishes and it made them dream that they could. I had no idea. And to me, a marathon sounded like insane. I couldn't believe people did those. And I didn't, I didn't, yeah, I didn't proceed this path ever.

• 16:16Cameron Hanes?

  How did you hear of your first 100?

• 16:19Speaker 05

  My first 100?

• 16:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. How do you, how do you hear, when did you learn that was a thing?

• 16:26Speaker 05

  I did a few road marathons and then I wondered what else I could try that sounded really hard. In that time period, I tried like a Tough Mudder, like that sounded super hard, you know?

• 16:39Cameron Hanes?

  Why? Because you liked the endurance stuff or?

• 16:42Speaker 05

  Yeah. And I just, I think I was just like looking for a thing outside of normal workday life that I could, you know, be, I was running every day anyways. So I was like, what could I sign up for just to see? Because who knows what will happen?

• 16:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. To me, and I want to hear what you say, starting is way harder than, once you've been going and doing even the hardest races, it's at the early days of running. I mean, do you think, I've never heard as much, I think Taylor said this when we were talking, but he heard more like when he first was trying to run five or 10 miles when he first started than any ultra.

• 17:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:25Cameron Hanes?

  You know, it's just getting your body used to the process. So what, what advice would you give to somebody who wants to be a runner?

• 17:35Speaker 05

  That it's that, it's hard at first, but it's tiny, consistent, you know, blocks that you're adding or grains of sand even on the pile. Like you're just putting one more grain on there, one more tiny block each day. But that consistency is the huge thing. So if you want to run five miles eventually, you shouldn't start by running five miles.

• 17:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 17:59Speaker 05

  You should start by running, you know, around the block. And then around a couple blocks, like go tiny, but be consistent.

• 18:09Cameron Hanes?

  I think that's it. I've never heard that analogy about like a grain of sand at a time. Cause people do want, they want these big gains. I mean, even Taylor St. Helene adds 10 year, 10 miles a year. But if you think it in perspective of a grain of sand building on that block, now that's, that's a small increment, but that is what it takes.

• 18:29Speaker 05

  Yeah. And then you look back and suddenly you've got a pile there.

• 18:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 05

  You know, they add up for sure. It's just, you don't see the gain every day.

• 18:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:39Speaker 05

  Like it wouldn't be like, yesterday I couldn't hit 10 yards. I hit a ladder instead of a target.

• 18:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it was a kill shot though. That ladder didn't go anywhere.

• 18:49Speaker 05

  It wouldn't be so quick.

• 18:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:52Speaker 05

  You know?

• 18:53Speaker 06

  It's just like this narrative around, it's okay just to be you. Well, why not just be the better you? Like work on yourself, you know, like.

• 19:05Cameron Hanes?

  Making everybody else accept you with all your flaws. How about just be better?

• 19:11Speaker 06

  Be better.

• 19:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 19:12Speaker 06

  Like, how much time do you spend training?

• 19:16Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 19:17Speaker 06

  Like, I mean, a huge percentage of your adult life, you've spent working hard to be passionate about the things that you believe in.

• 19:25Cameron Hanes?

  You, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Every day.

• 19:28Speaker 06

  Every day.

• 19:28Cameron Hanes?

  Hours a day.

• 19:29Speaker 06

  I mean, it says right here.

• 19:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 06

  Right?

• 19:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 19:32Speaker 06

  And, you know, you and I could roll out of bed and we could start our day with, you know, a pack of cigarettes and a carton or a, you know, a gallon of ice cream. We could.

• 19:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 06

  But that's weakness.

• 19:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 06

  It's okay to put out the fact that you want to be strong. You want to succeed.

• 19:52Cameron Hanes?

  Discipline.

• 19:53Speaker 06

  Yeah. Like Jaco says it, discipline equals freedom.

• 19:56Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 19:57Speaker 06

  And then people get trapped into this, what I think is ultimately a propaganda campaign into saying, it's okay to just do whatever impulse comes into your head. And you don't need discipline. And ultimately, discipline will, it's, it's, it's the problem. You've heard it.

• 20:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:23Speaker 06

  You've heard it. It's, it's disgusting.

• 20:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 06

  People talk about, well, I wasn't born privileged, right? Where I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, or I wasn't born privileged. Actually, I was. Like my, my parents weren't wealthy.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Um, none of my, like, nobody was.

• 20:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Like, my entire family, for, for the most part, everybody, man, they were positive. They were, they were a family. Like, I spent time with my cousins, my aunts, my uncles. We grew up in a really, really small town in the middle of nowhere. We spent time together as a family. We encouraged each other.

• 21:04Cameron Hanes?

  That's pretty rare.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  We fucking loved each other.

• 21:05Cameron Hanes?

  That's pretty lucky. Yeah.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude. So I've changed it because I used to, I used to talk about or hear people say, well, I didn't have, you know, wealth or privilege. And I was like, actually, I had something way more important than that.

• 21:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  I had a dad that got up every day at four thirty in the morning and went to work, like, working in the woods. I never saw him inebriated in my life. Never, never saw him inebriated. I saw him, he came to every one of my baseball games. He came to my basic training graduation, special forces graduation. He showed up every

• 21:37Cameron Hanes?

  That's rare.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  fucking week.

• 21:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you're lucky.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  And so that's what, that's, that's what I got, man. I actually got something better.

• 21:46Cameron Hanes?

  And that's a true silver spoon right there.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, I got it. It's better. It's better than the silver spoon, you know? And it's like, I got hugs.

• 21:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  I got people high fiving me and telling me jokes when I was a kid. I didn't get like people punching me in the mouth. So I feel good. And I actually feel because of that, like, I've been way luckier to have been inspired and raised by

• 22:11Speaker 01

  a bunch of real people. Yeah, super fortunate to have grown up where I grew up.

• 22:16Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I think that's why you have the perspective you have, even given all these, this turbulence, you know, the, the blessings and the challenges. It's like that, your upbringing, that being around positive people, feeling that care and love, that's what's made you have the perspective you have to be able to, hey, we're gonna get through this. It's gonna be okay. It's, I'm gonna deal with this. This is, this weight's on my shoulders, but I'm built for it. I mean, that's, it's, it's the whole journey who's prepared you for this.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  High quality relationships matter. You need to look at every single relationship with a critical eye. Because the one that drags you down is the one that's holding you down.

• 22:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  And like, you're playing down to other people's level. I don't like doing that. If someone is not maybe at your level, I'd like to try to help them get up, not come down to where they're at.

• 23:10Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Like, what, so someone wants to, like, drink, hang out, party, they want to do this, they want to do that, or they don't want to lift, or they, I don't know, maybe they're struggling in some other part of their life. What do you want to go down to that level and spend time in their misery and then convince them to go up the ladder? No, you stay high and help them go up.

• 23:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Don't come down. And I find people are playing down to these relationships they have. It could be kids, it could be parents, it could be business partners. And you just, high quality relationships matter. So all these people you're surrounding yourself, you're kind of doing that in like this, like, really condensed way with all these outliers, and you're getting little pieces of it. High quality relationships matter. The more you touch, it's like criminal justice, uh, four fifty-four at University of Maryland, Doc, Dr. Mariello. When two objects touch each other, they always transfer something. And so like, when you go to do a crime investigation and you look at tool marks on a door, whatever was used, there's something left from that.

• 24:15Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  When two objects touch, they always leave something.

• 24:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, well, that makes a lot of sense. And that's, you know, I sit here and I talk to these outliers, but I think the people listening in or watching in, they're touching that in their own, you know, in some way. They're gonna pick up something from that. Of course, I am, because I'm like, three feet away. But everybody listening in, if they have that mindset, they're gonna gain something from that also.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  These podcasts are amazing like that. I mean, you might be on a run, you might be driving two hours to go to work. Like, yeah, you could listen to Rand, Rand, or you could pop on a podcast, listen to you, listen to Jaco, listen to Huberman. I mean, you get some serious knowledge.

• 24:59Cameron Hanes?

  Definitely.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  If you want to better yourself in life, podcasts are a hell of a way to get a jump on it. The trick that I find that most people don't is they don't know how to apply what they heard.

• 25:11Cameron Hanes?

  Right. So what, what do you do? How do you?

• 25:15Speaker 01

  You gotta have a good, uh,

• 25:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, what's your advice there?

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Take risk. Change your structure, change your behavior, change your surroundings. You're gonna have to change something. In order to gain something, you must stop something. So people don't like change.

• 25:34Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  And so I think when you hear these podcasts, they're like, oh, well, cool, great. I'm gonna listen to another podcast. Okay, well, you just listened to a really fucking good one. What have you applied? What did you make changes? I'm almost the other way. I'm like, I'll fucking change every second. And people are like, dude, slow down. You didn't even stick with this two seconds.

• 25:57Cameron Hanes?

  Right, right.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  I'm like, no, I already heard there's something better. So I can go a little overboard on change because I grew up with a lot of change. It doesn't bother me as much. I think that that taking risk and change is an important part of like, asking yourself, are you taking enough risk and are you willing to change?

• 26:15Cameron Hanes?

  Element was created by former research biochemist Rob Wolf and has enough sodium, potassium, and magnesium to move the needle and get you feeling and performing your best. Plus, it has zero sugar, artificial colors, or other dodgy ingredients to derail your low carb lifestyle. That's why Element is my go-to electrolyte drink and trusted by many of the world's leading health experts and athletes, including Team USA Weightlifting, coaches, health practitioners, and teams across professional collegiate and high school sports leagues. You're also guaranteed to find an Element flavor you love. Try fan favorite citrus salt or raspberry salt.

• 26:55Cameron Hanes?

  Get spicy with mango chili or mix chocolate salt into your morning coffee from Mean Mocha. Element is offering listeners of the podcast a free Element sample pack with any purchase at www.drinklmnt.com backslash cam. Also try new Element sparkling, a bold sixteen ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. I've been shooting Hoyt for over twenty years now, and they're a lifetime partner of mine. That's not something I take lightly. I stay with partners that prove themselves. And Hoyt continues to do that year after year. They shattered the industry standards and built the AX ninety,

• 27:37Cameron Hanes?

  the first ninety pound bow to exist and be offered to consumers. Why? Because I want a hard hitting arrow delivered with enough force to push through, say, a rib or the edge of a shoulder blade. Because it's bow hunting. Not every shot is gonna be perfect. But when the animal reacts, or maybe I don't make the most perfect shot, I still want to deliver a lethal arrow and a ninety pound bow gives me more room for error. Unfortunately, they don't offer discounts on bows, but if you want to grab some Hoyt merch or selected accessories, you can use my code CAM for twenty percent off. If you're serious about archery and you want something you can rely on, shoot a Hoyt.

• 28:21Cameron Hanes?

  Get serious, get Hoyt, and keep hammering.

• 28:26Speaker 07

  I always say that having money and losing it is much more stressful than never having it. When you don't have it, you don't know really what you're missing. You just know that there's like, uh, there is a, um,

• 28:40Speaker 07

  there's a light at the end of the tunnel and I'm trying to get there. And when you get there and you're like, holy shit, I'm not, this isn't as overwhelming as I thought it would be. Cool. I have a lot of money, but I'm still the same person.

• 28:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 28:51Speaker 07

  I don't feel any happier. I don't feel like all my insecurities and vulnerabilities have gone away.

• 28:55Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 28:56Speaker 07

  And I think that was the realization of like, holy shit, money is not the answer. This, this, there's only one way to deal with this, and that's to like, do the hard work of coming to terms with some of the things that we go through in life.

• 29:08Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, the life you've created, the brand you've made with Levi Morgan.

• 29:15Speaker 07

  And I see, see what you've built, you know, with your family, with your home, with, you know, like I said, the brand of Levi Morgan. And it's like, I mean, I love it. It's inspiring to me because to see somebody to take a passion like that you have and turn it into this, it's a giant thing, really, because I don't imagine you could ever have envisioned this.

• 29:38Cameron Hanes?

  No, no. Like if you'd have told me, or if you could have let like 10 year old Levi see into the future, I would have passed out, you know, because it was like, I just shot a boat because I loved it.

• 29:48Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 29:49Cameron Hanes?

  I just happened to be like, do it a lot. Love it so much that I just was obsessed with it and did it and wanted to learn every little piece of it. And so, yeah, I've been like incredibly blessed and, and I think people that are good at what they do can never be really satisfied. And they're just like, ah, it's not good enough. It's not good enough. And so I also have a little bit of that, which I feel guilty about sometimes because I'm like, God, you've given me way more than I deserve, you know, and it's not that I don't think I'm getting what I deserve. It's just like, I can do better, you know, that kind of thing. But no, like what we've been able to do and what God's allowed me to do is

• 30:29Cameron Hanes?

  like above and beyond what, you know, I could have ever expected as a kid or even, even 10 years ago. But it's kind of been, and you and guys like you have kind of paved that way and showed that it's, it's, there's no limits. You know what I'm saying? You just, if you're willing to do things that nobody else is willing to do and just grind and, and go and be positive and just crush things. And that's kind of the mentality I've taken to this game. It's just like, how long can we do it? You know?

• 30:57Speaker 07

  But we talked about this too, the, the essence of, of who you are and how you've built this platform and how, you know, you didn't necessarily try to do it. You're just, you're just being campaigns and I put my camera on me here and there and people love it. People love it because it's, it's authentic. And also people want to see people doing things out of the ordinary and do things that are hard. You don't have to run a marathon for it to be your hard. Your hard could be something else like you talked about, but just coming here and getting immersed in the experience, having an awesome conversation, doing something a little bit hard, but also, you know, challenges you spiritually, mentally, physically. And every, I think it's great that every single time it will be different. It isn't like, hey, this is what we do every time. This is,

• 31:36Cameron Hanes?

  That's right.

• 31:37Speaker 07

  This is the first one. This was me. And I, even for me, for my personal, I don't know, I, I wanted to be able to finish the marathon. I, I, you know, I was like, well, we kind of were like, we know we're running again later. We're at least going to be at what 15, 16, 17. Might as well just go to 26. Let's just do it.

• 31:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 31:53Speaker 07

  So last night was, uh, last night was a doozy.

• 31:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 07

  In the middle of the night, basically.

• 31:57Cameron Hanes?

  It was great. It's like, but I think you, you made a good point too. It's like, when you're around people who that's, okay, here's what we do, then it changes your mindset. It's like you wouldn't have, I, I probably wouldn't have run a marathon yesterday either by myself. You wouldn't have for sure back at home because you haven't. But together you get around these people that elevate your game, you know, and, you know, I made, I know you made a reference of it yesterday that a rising tide lifts all boats. And it's like, that was a, a snapshot of it, just two guys, two guys training. It's like, hey, let's push each other. Let's do a little bit more than we otherwise would have. And then sometimes magic happens. And we're on top of Piscata last night, a summit 10 o'clock

• 32:39Cameron Hanes?

  at night or whatever it was. Of course, nobody else out there. And we had just finished a marathon. I mean, how, how great a feeling is that?

• 32:45Speaker 07

  It was really, really cool, you know? And, and like I said, even for me, I wouldn't have done it on my own, you know? But I, but I could do it with you by my side. Cause I know, well, A, you've been there and done that. And B, if you, you know, if you can do it, it gives me the, the permission that I can do it, you know?

• 33:04Cameron Hanes?

  Dream bigger.

• 33:05Speaker 07

  Yeah, of course. And, but I think that's what we, that is the essence of, of our human existence, you know? Like God created us for community. God created us for relationships. And we can be inspired by those around us. And I, I honestly think running a marathon was easier than I thought it was. But I think it was easier than I thought it was because you were there, right? You know, if, if you, if, you know, next week, if I'm like, hey, I'm gonna go run a marathon by myself, it's gonna be a lot harder, actually.

• 33:34Cameron Hanes?

  Right, right.

• 33:35Speaker 07

  But because I was watching your feet go, just watching them and I could just go with your cadence. And just like, okay, we're here and we have a little bit of conversation here and there. And a couple of those times it got hairy when we were actually climbing the mountain. I'm like, Cam, don't talk to me, you know? But, uh, you know, you unlocked my, you unlocked my running potential by not even trying to. You were just, you were just running it out, but you welled something up inside of me.

• 34:00Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 34:01Speaker 07

  That it was actually easier than I thought it was. Now, granted, I woke up this morning and, you know, a little sore, but it was good. We did it. We finished.

• 34:08Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I think people, they get so used to this narrative where, so if you say, well, I'm gonna run a marathon, people, the natural inclination would be like, well, have you even been training?

• 34:18Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 34:18Cameron Hanes?

  You know, they, they want to shoot it down before they know anything because it's like, we're ingrained. It's like, well, that's hard. That's, you know, you gotta take six months to recover from a marathon. That's been a thing people will say. So they give you all these reasons. Do you have the right shoes? Do you, whatever? It's like, just ignore all that and like, no, we're gonna run a marathon. It, it might take, you know, a few hours. We're gonna cover the distance and it's gonna be okay.

• 34:43Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 34:44Cameron Hanes?

  And at the other side of it, we're gonna have a whole different view on running, I guess, or what, what we're capable of, or if we're around certain people, what we can do together. And it's like, but it all, you have to get going. And yes, there are excuses you can make. You can say, well, I haven't been preparing. Um, you know, as you said, it's been the holiday season, it's Christmas, it's New Year's, I haven't been doing this. So he had plenty of, of opportunity to say, yeah, I'm not really prepared for this. How about if we just do 10? And I would have been, sweet, let's do 10. No biggie. But instead, your mentality and us together, it will, it allowed us, as you said, gave us permission to do more, to dream bigger.

• 35:26Speaker 07

  Yeah. Well, and, and I don't want to, I also don't want to have people hear, because they know who you are. And if they watch mixed martial arts or they see mixed martial arts, or they look me up, they're like, okay, this guy's a little bit kind of crazy too. Like, maybe you're, maybe you aren't, maybe you are just starting your fitness journey or listen to a guy who runs a marathon a day often, and a guy over here who fights the cadence every single day, 2am, you know, like, but you gotta start where you're at and also just get around people. Maybe for you, a hu, for me, a huge win was running a marathon yesterday with campaigns. And, and part of it was uphill. But maybe for you, if you're starting your fitness journey, or you're starting your weight loss journey, you're starting your spiritual journey, whatever, whatever journey you're starting, it's just putting one foot in front of the other, without sounding cliche, just like we're talking

• 36:10Speaker 07

  about running. It is, maybe for you, it's, it is a walk around the block. And then a month from now, it's a couple of walks around the block and then starting to jog a little bit and then starting to change this. And then getting around people who say, you know what? I believe in you.

• 36:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 36:23Speaker 07

  You know?

• 36:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 36:23Speaker 07

  You know, you didn't have to tell me, hey, I believe in you that you can do this marathon. But it was, but it was, you were unlocking that potential in me just by being there with me. And it's, it goes back to community and relationships and, and also being around people and be inspired by people. Cause we could also get so caught up in the social media age where we're like, well, I'm gonna watch this guy do, this guy out here is pushing himself and living his dream and how I'm inspired, you know? But then you just, the inspiration goes away until you look at the next guy and then the next guy and the next guy. And you never actually do anything.

• 36:54Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 36:55Speaker 07

  You know, you gotta, you gotta take the action. And the other thing too, is just like I gave the, kind of the example of, I'm a little bit less sore than I thought I was going to be. And it was actually a little bit easier than I thought it was, would be. But I would never have known that.

• 37:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 37:09Speaker 07

  Had we not tried it.

• 37:10Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 37:11Speaker 07

  And I think this, this idea of people being so afraid of failure, because I, there was the moments there where I was like, shoot dude, like, I'm about to finish this marathon. Because last night we had a nice little dinner, had some milk and stuff. And I'm like, okay, I got 15 miles ahead of me.

• 37:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 37:25Speaker 07

  Like, what if I, uh, what if I gotta tell Cam, I gotta, I gotta tap out here? But, but I was willing to, to do that. Number one, because of who you are, I know you wouldn't judge me and it would have been just fine. But, but also, you don't know what you're capable of unless you're willing to fail.

• 37:38Cameron Hanes?

  Put it out there.

• 37:39Speaker 07

  Unless you're willing to fall flat on your face and be laughed at and point, fingers pointed at, you know? So no matter where you're at on your fitness journey or your, any journey that you're on, A, get around the people that you want to emulate and be around who, or somebody that wells something up inside of you. And B, don't be afraid of failing because if you ain't failing, you ain't trying.

• 37:59Cameron Hanes?

  When people say, you know, oh, who you having on the podcast next? And I'm like, uh, Nick Berry. He's like this fitness guy? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know him. So now it seems all good, right? Um, what was the hardest part of that 11 year journey?

• 38:14Speaker 07

  I mean, there's a lot. But if I think about one, one thing that I learned that I think other people can implement into their life, it's, you know, you get started with this, this passion project, this, this purpose, this idea of what you want to create and how you want to create it. And it's really true and authentic to yourself. And the longer you do it, and you start achieving some wins and some success, it's really easy to be guided in the wrong direction. You know, these, these white rabbits pop up left and right and here and there, and it's easy to chase them.

• 38:54Cameron Hanes?

  You mean guided or just naturally go that way?

• 38:57Speaker 07

  Naturally go that way. You know, say you get started and you see another crater that is following certain trends and it's working for them. It's really easy to fall that way. Or you see another business following a blueprint and it's working for them. And it's really easy to try to implement that blueprint into your business, thinking it's going to recreate the same results. But if you can set your trajectory and you're really honest with yourself and about who you are and who you want to serve and how you want to serve them and what you want to create and what makes you unique and special, and you stay on that path, I think that's one of the most difficult things to do, but it's the most rewarding thing. I'm a big fan of compounding consistency over time. Just show

• 39:40Speaker 07

  up and be consistent. Just show up and be consistent. One of the things my running coach, Jeff Cunningham says, is it's better to be consistently good than occasionally great. You know, you think of the runner who wakes up every single day, goes and logs their miles, day in, day out. It's hot, it's cold, it's rainy, it's sunny. They're still gonna log their miles. Then you have the other person who wakes up, they snooze, they don't go run their miles, they don't log their easy runs. But occasionally they go out and they run the fastest mile they can. Or they go and sign up for a marathon and blow up. And they're occasionally great. But to be consistently good, that compounds

• 40:23Speaker 07

  and that's gonna get you so much further than the person who's chasing quick greatness.

• 40:27Cameron Hanes?

  So how does one, first of all, get to be the best? I mean, I don't know. How'd you get to be the best? Here's the thing. I, I don't know if I'm the best, but I've put in a lot of time. Yeah. You know? So time? I think, I mean, there's days where, or like years.

• 40:42Speaker 07

  In the past, before I had family, I would be out in the field three, my biggest year is 323 days in one year in the field.

• 40:50Cameron Hanes?

  That's a lot.

• 40:51Speaker 07

  It's a lot of days and that's just one year, you know? I mean, I professionally, I now I've been professionally guiding and whatever for about this will be 21 years. So I think like putting in the time and, and spending that time hunting on the mountains, learning the animals. That helps, right? Cause it's just, it, it like anything, thousands of repetitions and you, you start to like figure it out in a way and, and honestly making a lot of mistakes. I think that to be really good at something, I don't, I mean, I've failed at certain things thousands of times essentially. And it's like, okay, number a thousand and one, oh, I figured it out. And then that formula works and then maybe you fail again and you go, okay, I figured it out.

• 41:36Speaker 07

  And then I think the other thing too is like, I, I mean, I don't, I don't know. It, it just lends to me, the way that I like to hunt is I, I've always really loved hunting. And so like when I was a kid, if I would go out on a hunt, let's say we had five days to hunt and a good buck stepped out on day one, I would never shoot that buck. I would shoot that buck on the, I would shoot a deer on the last evening of the last day because I loved hunting so much, I didn't want to go home. And that's how I think that that's like the part of my brain that allowed me to go hunting 323 days. Like, how do you, I mean, I, I worked in three different countries as a guide, kind of chased the seasons. Essentially all the other days were just travel days and I'd be in the field scouting,

• 42:21Speaker 07

  taking clients, hunting for myself, whatever. But I think that, you know, having that, that time and then also it, it kind of, I gravitate toward difficult hunts, the ones that were the success could be really low because that would, those hunts naturally allowed me to hunt longer. So, so I like, I pick and I intentionally pick hunts that I think that I'm probably not going to be successful, which is a weird thing, but it's, I don't know. It's like my, it's what I love. And so I think by doing that too, I've had experience with very difficult hunts and then found success or, you know, I made it harder on myself by bow hunting and then self filming.

• 43:06Speaker 07

  And so it like extended the hunt, it made it more challenging. So I had to pay attention to more details.

• 43:11Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 43:11Speaker 07

  Or like then from bow hunting and self filming to bow hunting and self filming a recurve hunt. And then from that, like bow hunting and self filming, a recurve hunt in an over the counter unit that I've never been in. And you're like continually like pushing the bar for myself. I think that that lended itself to me having a lot of failures, which led to a lot of experience, which led to a lot of success.

• 43:35Cameron Hanes?

  Tell me about the smile or you're doing it wrong. I don't know where that started. Sure. Well, it started on a Strava segment. So Strava is an app that you can like make these segments and people make them all over the world and you can run them. And I was running this random hill and the segment was called, you're either smiling or you're crying. And I think probably if you're going downhill, you're smiling. If you're going uphill, you're crying. Yeah. But I just thought, it was just like a momentary thought, like maybe a decade ago. And I said, man, if, if, if you're not smiling, doing this, you're, you're doing it wrong. And then that just, I started putting that in social media posts and, and that's where it started.

• 44:16Cameron Hanes?

  And then it's obviously gotten so much bigger that it's, it's more of just a like about philosophy and a sort of a mantra about how lucky we are to be able to do what we're doing. And even if it's like terrible and horrible, you know, there's still joy in it. Right. I mean, like I, I've, I've been in races where people are really hurting and they really want to quit. And, and I'll look at them and I'll be like, well, what do you do for a living? The guy will be like, I make pizzas. And I'm like, okay. Do you want to be making pizzas right now? And he's like, no, you know? And I'm like, that's right. Now get up and keep running, you know?

• 44:57Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like, sometimes we lose perspective of how lucky it is to, that we can go out there and suffer and, and, and do these hard things. But I, you know, the joy and the smiling and just also just the spreading the positivity. If you're in a race, someone's having a hard time and you come across them and you smile at them, instinctively, most of the time they will smile back at you. Yeah. And when, once somebody smiles, there's like a trigger in their brain and it sometimes can get them out of that, like real negative low moment, just because they smiled. Right. Um, and, and so I think, you know, there's some, some positivity in that as well. Like sometimes that's all you need is somebody go, hey, good job. Hey, you look like you're killing it. Even you feel like death, you're slogging up this hill and somebody comes by and tells

• 45:42Cameron Hanes?

  you, you're doing a great job. Sometimes that's all you need emotionally to get out of it. Cause a lot of times in ultras and in life, it is just emotions that are holding you back. Yeah. It's not your physical, it's, it's your brain. So if you can have a small chemical change in your brain to like. The trigger effect. Yeah. And sometimes it's just a smile. This episode is brought to you by Mountain Ops, a brand I've trusted for years to fuel my training, power me through the backcountry and help me recover strong so I can do it all again the next day. Whether I'm deep in the mountains on a hunt or pushing hard during a workout, Mountain Ops has been a constant part of my routine. I worked closely with the team at Mountain Ops to create a full line of products that match the way I train and live every day.

• 46:25Cameron Hanes?

  We call it the keep hammering line and it's built to help you show up strong physically and mentally, no matter what your goals are. Need a boost before a tough workout or a long hike? The pre-workout delivers clean, sustained energy and endurance to help you go the distance. Want to recover faster and reduce soreness? Our BCA's are designed to help your muscles bounce back and stay strong for the next challenge. And when it's time to refuel, the keep hammering protein packs 23 grams of high quality protein per serving. No fillers, just real fuel your body needs. These are the same products I use every single day, whether I'm training in the gym or chasing elk through the high country. So if you're ready to step up your performance and recovery, head to mountainops.com, use

• 47:09Cameron Hanes?

  code CAM and you get 20% off your order. That's mountainops.com code CAM for 20% off. Mountain Ops, conquer more. Out in the mountains, there's no room for weak gear. When I'm packing out meat in the heat or loading up for a long range training trip, I need a cooler that holds the line every time. That's why I use Grizzly coolers. These things are bear proof, rugged as hell and keep ice locked in for days, literally. I've had coolers on the trail, baking in the sun, still holding ice after hauling out elk quarters. That's performance you can count on. Whether you're running deep in the backcountry or just stacking meat for the weekend, Grizzly is built for that grind.

• 47:55Cameron Hanes?

  Don't roll with weak gear. Go Grizzly.

• 48:00Speaker 06

  Obviously you've talked a lot about risk and danger being an important component for growth.

• 48:04Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 48:04Speaker 06

  I just kind of wanted to know how that opinion or that belief has been challenged as a father whose kids are now getting closer to the age where they start making those decisions on their own.

• 48:16Speaker 07

  So I would, I would probably clarify a little bit how I feel about that. Risk and danger, I don't think it is required. And I think a lot of people, I can use wingsuiting as an example, because a lot of people from the outside of that, they would look at that and be like, why would you do that? You're out of your mind. That is so incredibly dangerous. And I will not sit here and tell anybody that that is a safe activity.

• 48:37Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 48:38Speaker 07

  But I will say, I think it can be done as safely as possible. And what people never saw on a YouTube video or an Instagram video is that I would spend six months training to go to Switzerland for two weeks and then do an immense amount of jumps and maybe two of those would actually end up being posted somewhere. And in that, you are managing, assessing and controlling as much risk as possible. Can you get a better wingsuit? Can you get a better coach? What can you do to reduce the risk down to as low as possible? And then the question is, is the juice worth the squeeze? So it's not this cavalier approach to risk.

• 49:21Speaker 07

  Even, and even in my old job in the military, people like, oh man, you guys must've been fearless. I'm like, ah, I actually wouldn't want to work with somebody who's fearless because that would mean they're likely a sociopath or a psychopath.

• 49:31Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 49:31Speaker 07

  Like the things they ask us to do are pretty dangerous sometimes. And if you're not scared, I have some questions for you. Like first question, are you paying attention? Were you awake in the brief?

• 49:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 49:40Speaker 07

  Because this is, might be gnarly. And then the same, we do the same thing with a high risk operation is you analyze, assess and mitigate on risk. So it's this constant cycle of where's the risk? What can we do to mitigate it? What's the residual? Can we keep going and going and going until the risk threshold comes down? And on the first slide of every military operation, it lists the residual risk. A lower risk operation is probably going to be able to be approved at, uh, let's say a battlespace commander level, something like going into Iran. I bet you that was a white house call because of the high level nature of that operation. And we can leave the narrative about was it for the nukes or rescue, whatever it was.

• 50:24Speaker 07

  For them to go into Iran like that with the assets that they did in the daytime, by the way, very high risk. I bet you that was SecDef if not presidential approval on that one.

• 50:36Speaker 07

  And again, is the juice worth the squeeze on that? I have just found in my life, when I can get to places where I am exceptionally challenging myself to the limit, not. Not over the limit, but to the limit of what I'm capable of. That's been the most rewarding times in my life.

• 50:53Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. Okay.

• 50:55Speaker 07

  The things that I have not worked hard for are the ones that I value the least in my life.

• 51:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that makes sense. Who I have on the podcast is outliers and you are like the definition of outlier. And now, now, you know, I'm still older than you, but you know, you've been around a while and still, but still can shaking things up. How, how does that work?

• 51:17Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think it's, uh, just keep reinventing myself and I feel like I've, I love marketing, I love business and you know, in the categories that I enjoy. You know, I've been pretty fortunate that to ever have to do as much that I don't want to do as far as like categories. But yeah, I feel like, um, nowadays it's, it's my category is more like mentoring my kids, I would say.

• 51:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 51:44Speaker 07

  And I find in my space, my niche, you know, but I had all my years of action sports and motocross, supercross, car racing, all that stuff. And now it's, yeah, I'd say I'm a middle aged man. So I have that going on. So, and there's always an audience for that. So it's

• 52:01Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I know now I've been to a couple of events and all I know is every time I'm around you, there's a million people yelling, Brian, Brian, Brian Deegan, Brian, Brian. It's like non-stop. People want picture, want some time, something. So yeah, I mean, you say you're middle aged and like the dad thing, but man, you still got a presence out there.

• 52:24Speaker 07

  Yeah. And, uh, in our sport, such as I all say, action sports and, you know, motor sports. I grew up more the eighties, nineties. I'd say nineties was kind of my era. And so those guys from the nineties that were young teenagers that grew up in the my era, action sports militia, the whole vibe and, and they are now their forties and fifties with kids. And their kids are now following my kids. And now kids are all watching, consuming their content through YouTube. So, and we started our YouTube channel over, man, it must've been, it's over 10 years ago now. We've been doing YouTube and we were one of the first ones in the motocross industry to do it.

• 53:07Speaker 07

  And, uh, we just stayed at it and, uh, it has built the craziest fan base. I mean, more than I could ever think of, you know, it's people following the journey of our kids from when they were younger racing. And they first started watching because of my ex games and, and, uh, action sports and car racing. And then they were watching the kids and I always felt like together was stronger. Okay. Like, like instead of investing my time in, you know, a lot of other things, which I say you have your stock value. Can your name is your stock value to me.

• 53:44Cameron Hanes?

  You got one product.

• 53:45Speaker 07

  One product is your brand, right? And that's your name and that's your, you know, credibility and and so, and I am always invested back in my family and, and I felt like that was important. And, and you know, I definitely had pushback of like, oh, why would you expose your kids, your family on YouTube and this ad? And I thought, well, you know, I get your point, but we've always shown action, you know? We don't show too much personal. It's just like, okay, we're filming and showing what we're already doing, which is racing. You know, racing, action sports, flipping dirt bikes, you know, the fun stuff in the yard, that, you know, stuff people can relate to. And I feel like that journey has been something people have followed, you know, getting back to the point of nineties, you know, generation. And I have people that have followed

• 54:29Speaker 07

  me. Now their kids are following my kids. It has been a generational thing. And now I think that's why the fan bases have gotten so big.

• 54:37Cameron Hanes?

  How does one make themselves?

• 54:41Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I mean, it's marketable, I guess, but valuable to a company.

• 54:45Speaker 06

  As just a individual?

• 54:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 54:48Speaker 06

  Like, uh, are you asking like, how do you become like a hunting personality slash influencer?

• 54:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I just want to know what you guys value from the, from the company. Cause I have my guesses. I've, like I said, I've just been on this side of it.

• 55:01Speaker 06

  Sure, sure.

• 55:02Cameron Hanes?

  What do you guys look for?

• 55:04Speaker 06

  So a couple of different things. At a, for people that were going to pay.

• 55:13Speaker 06

  There's a mathematical like

• 55:15Cameron Hanes?

  And how realistic is being paid to bow?

• 55:19Speaker 06

  It's, it's very not realistic. It's extremely hard.

• 55:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 55:24Speaker 06

  It can totally be done.

• 55:27Speaker 06

  I think that almost everybody that is doing that, like has you to thank for some degree for that. Because you've proven that like this path is attainable. It can happen. It's possible. That like you should have, I, I listened to your episode with Greg and you guys brought up, or he brought up Chris. You should definitely have Chris on to talk about, cause he's like

• 55:47Cameron Hanes?

  I'd love to.

• 55:47Speaker 06

  The pristine example of, you know, he's 26 or seven. He's 10 years into YouTube, like he's doing it live.

• 55:55Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 55:56Speaker 06

  Right now. Um, so there's a mathematical, like how many eyeballs do you get? What's your, I'm, I'm interested in you as a distribution vehicle to help champion, like just brand name, get it out there. That's a part of it. So having like a platform from which you can speak with, with credibility is like the most important thing. Because you and I both know guys that just shill whatever, whoever will write them a check. I'm totally not interested in that.

• 56:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:29Speaker 06

  So so much of how possible is it to become a personality that gets paid to hunt? And I use that paid to hunt as like you do much more than just hunt. I'm totally aware. That's just kind of how people frame.

• 56:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:46Speaker 06

  It starts with, do you love it? And I mean, really love it. And I think you and Greg did a good job of like framing. I think he said, like, you should be prepared to lose money for three years if you do this. I think that that's

• 57:00Cameron Hanes?

  I lost for a lot longer.

• 57:02Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:02Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah.

• 57:03Speaker 06

  You also existed at a different moment in time when you were on your come up. So like, when did you?

• 57:10Speaker 06

  Like the business of hunting, you said 1989 earlier. What happened in 1989?

• 57:15Cameron Hanes?

  That's when I started bow hunting.

• 57:16Speaker 06

  Okay. When did you like, cause you wrote for Eastmans for a long time. Like, when did you get your first dollar from hunting?

• 57:24Cameron Hanes?

  God, it was a long, I mean,

• 57:30Cameron Hanes?

  maybe at least 20 years. I mean,

• 57:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:34Cameron Hanes?

  I remember PSC had a commercial and they said, we don't, we don't pay, or like something like these people shoot PSC for free. And I was on there and that was like in 2002 or three. And then I was like, kind of like going, I was writing for Eastmans, but I'm like,

• 57:53Cameron Hanes?

  if they're saying that I'm doing this for free, it's like,

• 57:59Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, I have value. They have me up my picture on there. Why am I not, if I'm being used.

• 58:07Speaker 06

  Right.

• 58:08Cameron Hanes?

  How come, what do I get?

• 58:10Speaker 06

  Right.

• 58:10Cameron Hanes?

  You know, then I was just like, cause then, and then it evolved into, you know, so then it'd be super small. I don't even know how much, no, no money hardly. But, uh, finally, I think I was, uh, I, I went to, I started to play this camo game because the camo companies had the money. You know, basically way more than a bow company or an accessory company. They, you know, those guys make a lot of money. And it's not even, they don't have to manufacture this, selling the, the, the pattern. So they're, you know, it's just

• 58:42Speaker 06

  Right.

• 58:43Cameron Hanes?

  They definitely have, have more to, to, um, I guess, I don't sponsor people or whatever. So I went through and I just said, I looked at my impressions per thousand. So I'd add up, like I write for this magazine. This is this many people I post this or, and like this was, might've even been right at the advent of Facebook. But I could keep track of where I was reaching people, how many people I was reaching and how much I was proposing. They pay me. And then it would be, you're going to pay this much per thousand impressions through me.

• 59:14Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 59:15Cameron Hanes?

  And it was a big number by adding all that up. Cause it's also on TV shows. This, I had all the numbers for the viewers. So I made it really easy for a marketer to be like,

• 59:25Cameron Hanes?

  wow, that's, he's getting out there, you know? So I'm, I signed a deal for like a hundred and 25,000 five-year deal with, I can't remember if it was RealTree or Mossy Oak, but I'm just like, I'm making a hundred thousand, it didn't matter. There's over five years.

• 59:41Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 59:41Cameron Hanes?

  It was just like, that was kind of validated at that time.

• 59:44Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 59:44Cameron Hanes?

  So that took over 20 years.

• 59:46Speaker 06

  Right. And so I think the point there to bring that into a modern context is what you're talking about. Like the CPM, like impressions per thousand. That was a very, uh, way to substantiate someone's distribution value as a marketer themselves for my thing as a brand person, that is still a component. I think now that's, that's part of, that's just like table stakes. If you don't have a lot of distribution, that's like, I mean, I'll, I'll seed you some gear. And I want to invest in people on the come up personally. And so I'm actually in the middle of like negotiating a couple of deals right now with younger creatives that are on their own rise.

• 1:00:31Cameron Hanes?

  Nice.

• 1:00:32Speaker 06

  Because the thing that I find most interesting is I want to align with people that are very hungry and trying to build the life that they want to live. And if I can help facilitate that, that scratches my own itch.

• 1:00:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:50Speaker 06

  And I get to the, the extreme joy, and I do mean that, the joy of shepherding a budget wherein I can help do that for people. It's like you're out there doing the thing, trying to build your presence and like, do what we're talking about right now. Can I, is this even real?

• 1:01:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Speaker 06

  Possible?

• 1:01:10Cameron Hanes?

  It's a dream. It's great.

• 1:01:11Speaker 06

  I can see you on the internet, call you and be like, hey dude, what's up? Tell me your story. What are you trying to do? And if you just engage with me in a way that's like, super honest, and I think that you're talented. And most of what I'm looking at is, do you represent capital H hunting? It's like how I frame it. Like, I work in this space because I'm really afraid that hunting can be legislated out of existence before I'm dead. And so working at a brand is my attempt to grab the biggest megaphones that I can to be like, hey, this deserves to exist. And I want to work with people that all feel the same way. So if you're on that team, I'm with you.

• 1:01:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Speaker 06

  That's what I do. Selling stuff is, is just like the mechanism by which I do that.

• 1:02:00Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:02:02Speaker 06

  So, do you really love it? Do you have a passion for it? Are you dedicated? Do you represent capital H hunting in a way that is like morally and ethically defensible to a non-hunting voting public? Are you stewarding your small corner of the internet in a way that's net positive for the lifestyle that we all love? That's what I'm really after. And just because we're a smaller company, like I can't go out and sign people like you. Like I don't have the budget for what you would demand. I'm interested in younger creatives, guys on the come up, people that are like, dude, I'm on the cusp. I'm trying to figure this out. Because those guys are dogs, like motivated, they're

• 1:02:45Speaker 06

  grinding for it. And it's like aligning with people that are hungry, it's net positive for the both of us. And so in any negotiation stuff that I do, it's like, what are the incentives? And how can we align them? Because I'm going to ask things of you, and you should ask things of me. So this should be a fair and equitable deal here. I look for scenarios where everybody can win. Because we're not a huge brand where it's like, yeah, I can just write you a check and let you do whatever you do and trust that it's going to be good for me. Like, I don't have that type of firepower.

• 1:03:21Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:03:22Speaker 06

  Different, bigger brands, it's like, I, I lived in that world before. That's totally a thing and appropriate for other brands at different phases of the game. I like really need it to work.

• 1:03:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:35Speaker 06

  Where I'm at now. And so I'm very choosy. And so, so much of like, as a creator, as a hunter of who's, like, the game is content and media right now, right? You should spend a lot of time, like picking your horse. Because you want to do everything you can to keep your integrity intact.

• 1:04:08Cameron Hanes?

  But I was, I was curious about this. Do you think, who has a higher ceiling? A grinder with less talent, who's had to outwork everybody to get where that, or somebody who's born with the talent and just gets by on talent? I guess there's different levels to everything.

• 1:04:25Speaker 06

  It's almost always the talent.

• 1:04:26Cameron Hanes?

  The talent always wins?

• 1:04:28Speaker 06

  It's the talent.

• 1:04:28Cameron Hanes?

  That's not fair.

• 1:04:31Speaker 06

  I get asked this a lot.

• 1:04:32Cameron Hanes?

  Did I get, did I have no hope?

• 1:04:35Speaker 06

  People ask me that one commonly, like, what is the difference between, because, because I've dealt with probably five or six of the highest contracts in, in professional sports in America, right across multiple sports. So the question comes up, like, what separates those guys and girls from the next round? And it's, they're just better.

• 1:04:59Cameron Hanes?

  And well, it's probably like the, the perfect storm is all the talent and all the work.

• 1:05:04Speaker 06

  That's how you get a LeBron.

• 1:05:05Cameron Hanes?

  And a Jordan.

• 1:05:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:05:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:07Speaker 06

  Guys that sustain, guys that do things. And you're like, wow, girls. And you're like, wow, that's how you get flowjos. That's how you get people. You're like, oh.

• 1:05:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Speaker 06

  Those are world beaters that are going to have their names.

• 1:05:17Cameron Hanes?

  Lightning in their bottle.

• 1:05:18Speaker 06

  No question.

• 1:05:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:19Speaker 06

  But most professional athletes, in terms of skill sports, golf, baseball, hockey, they're just better at their sport. Some of them are really good workers, really diligent. Others are not. They're just fundamentally better.

• 1:05:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:35Speaker 06

  That doesn't mean the other people have no shot. But, but those people are guys and girls that are like, on the bubble. Okay, so they're on the bubble, but because they do all those things, right? They have a seven or eight year career. They might be an all-star once or twice. That is where you're like, yo, you just changed your life, your family's life. Because if you wouldn't have done that, you wouldn't have got there.

• 1:05:57Cameron Hanes?

  Wouldn't even have made it.

• 1:05:58Speaker 06

  You wouldn't have made it.

• 1:05:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:59Speaker 06

  Right? That's, that's the bubble. So when I first left those people, that's the person I wanted to work with. I wanted to work with that bubble person. I wanted to work with the person who has one shot.

• 1:06:12Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:06:12Speaker 06

  In one preseason to make an NFL roster. And they make it that year, they get to say the rest of their life, they play in the NFL. Or they don't.

• 1:06:20Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:06:21Speaker 06

  Right? That one person who's going to get to the Olympics one time. That one person to get one contract that changes the life and they can buy their family out of distress. And there's just so many things that go into this, that literally change people's lives. It just resonated with me so much more. I'm like, that's the person. That's the person I want to go help. Everyone's fighting to work with some, you know, the famous, so and because they want, they're really not telling you.

• 1:06:48Cameron Hanes?

  10% of their contract.

• 1:06:50Speaker 06

  It's not only that, but it's, a lot of times it's like, oh, I'll work with that person. And then my name will get out and then I'll get famous.

• 1:06:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:56Speaker 06

  Like, yeah, I don't think you know how this works.

• 1:06:59Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:06:59Speaker 06

  I don't think you know how this works. But I resonated the opposite. So I started working with people that, that were going to sell their soul basically for a dream and no one would know or care. That, that's what got me.

• 1:07:11Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:07:11Speaker 06

  Initially. And for probably the first seven to eight years, that's pretty much all I did.

• 1:07:16Cameron Hanes?

  You mentioned a bunch of goals. Do you write down all these goals? Like, do you journal? Like, you said the 70, what'd you say, 70 miles on your 70th day? So do you have these goals written down?

• 1:07:25Speaker 04

  I mean, they're in journals.

• 1:07:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:27Speaker 04

  Do I know like?

• 1:07:28Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:07:29Speaker 04

  They're not like on a wall, or a sticky note on my mirror or anything. I do that. I'll, I'll, you know, I like to publish ahead of time, like my year goals. So like, on my Substack, I will go through what my goals are for 2026 at some point. Because I'm a big believer in just being honest about your goals. Like, don't hedge your bets. Hedging your bets is for wimps. Like, it's not, that's not cool. It's not, it is, like, if you're trying to win, say you're trying to win, and if you fail, it's okay.

• 1:07:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Speaker 04

  Right? Like, you know who Kamara Usman is?

• 1:08:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:08:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. He said something on, on Rogan one time, where, when he got KO'd by Leon Edwards. And he was like, I'm happy my daughter was there, because I want her to see me fail and be okay afterwards. Right? Like, what, that's, that's the mindset.

• 1:08:16Cameron Hanes?

  That's amazing.

• 1:08:17Speaker 04

  I know. And then that, he's one of my favorite athletes of all time, because I think he's got the mentality of just a, like, an insane person in a good way, right?

• 1:08:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:28Speaker 04

  It's that kind of thing where like, I'm just, you know, I know people who hedge their bets, who are like, I don't want to be honest about my goals, because I don't want to be embarrassed when I fail. And that's not, that's not the way to be.

• 1:08:38Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:08:39Speaker 04

  Like, it's, I'm just, I want to put it all out there. And if I don't reach it.

• 1:08:45Cameron Hanes?

  For all they may.

• 1:08:45Speaker 04

  Exactly. It's, it's like we were talking about, like, reaching for enlightenment. You know, I'm never going to get there.

• 1:08:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:50Speaker 04

  But I'm, that's my goal.

• 1:08:52Cameron Hanes?

  That's the goal. It's, you know, Truitt puts out big goals, and sometimes he comes up short. But we were, we were on that hunt with Jelly Roll the other day, and it was Truitt's birthday. And so I was talking to him on the phone, and Jelly Roll came up. He's like, hey, you know, he was, hey, can I say something? So he just mentioned to Truitt, which ties in exactly to this, that he likes that Truitt sets these big audacious goals. Because Jelly Roll told the story about, there was a time in his career where he could sell out like a $2,000 to $4,000 venue, and it would be sold out, Jelly Roll sold out. But he had to make a decision. Should he go for those venues?

• 1:09:31Cameron Hanes?

  Or the next venue up, which is say, an eight to 12,000 seat venue? And he probably wouldn't sell it out, but he could. And would it be better to sell 8,000 at a 12,000 seat venue, or sell out the smaller 2,000 to 4,000 seat venue? And he said, let's go big.

• 1:09:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:51Cameron Hanes?

  He goes, we got to go big. And if we don't get it, that's okay, because we will get it at some point. And he thought that that was a better option than just the safer bet, hedging your bet. As you said, like, you want to win, but you're not going to say it.

• 1:10:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Cameron Hanes?

  Because then you look bad if you don't, or you look, whatever. So that was like a perfect illustration of that mindset. And now Jelly Roll can sell out a stadium.

• 1:10:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:10:15Cameron Hanes?

  You know, so would that have happened? Taken, I don't know, maybe not.

• 1:10:20Speaker 04

  Maybe not.

• 1:10:20Cameron Hanes?

  Maybe he wouldn't have worked quite as hard, because he had already hit his mark, you know, he'd already sold out. He's a self, you know, he's already like selling out these shows. So that makes sense to me perfectly. I love it, too.

• 1:10:32Speaker 04

  I've got a few things I say along that line to myself. And one of them, one of First Form's mottos is never settle. And I, you know, I love that. Like, never settle, well, you do better, you know? Keep, keep working, keep hammering, right? And in another one that I say to myself along a similar lines is no limits. Like, all these limits you're going to set for yourself are arbitrary. Like, when I was going into Bigfoot this year, I was aiming for 48 hours, right? And I finished in 45. And if you had told me beforehand that I was going to finish in 45, I would have been like.

• 1:11:04Cameron Hanes?

  45?

• 1:11:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:11:05Cameron Hanes?

  At Bigfoot?

• 1:11:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:11:07Cameron Hanes?

  How? That is crazy.

• 1:11:09Speaker 04

  I mean, it was seven miles shorter than the original course, but still.

• 1:11:12Cameron Hanes?

  God.

• 1:11:13Speaker 04

  It was, it was three hours faster than what I thought was possible.

• 1:11:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Speaker 04

  And so after that, I'm like, what, what am I doing? Limits?

• 1:11:22Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:11:22Speaker 04

  Like, this is so stupid. Like, no limits, you know? That's like my sign off on my Instagram post now.

• 1:11:28Cameron Hanes?

  Is no limits because Love it. You just like that Jelly Roll story, you know, if he had limited himself, maybe he's not where he is today. Yeah. You know, and if it doesn't scare you, is it really worth doing? Right. Right? Like it should, your goals should scare you. Yeah. It should feel barely attainable and that's the sweet spot.

• 1:11:47Speaker 07

  Got back into skating. I'd quit skateboarding when I was doing my, doing my thing and in addiction, like

• 1:11:53Cameron Hanes?

  Struggling.

• 1:11:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, struggling and the, the company that I worked at, at had a skate park in one of the warehouses and I would skate in there every day and I kept getting injured. I broke one of my ankles and then a couple, six months later I broke my other ankle. So I was just out for quite a few months. I couldn't do anything. I was just sitting on the couch. I was on a knee scooter crutches and I had a roommate at the time who was like super into, I mean, he was a bodybuilder. So he was super into going to the gym and I came to him one day. I was like, dude, I just feel like shit, man. Like I, I need to like do something. And he was like, start coming to the gym with me. Like I'll, I'll show you what to do. Like I'll teach you how to lift and yeah, I started, I just got a gym membership and started going to the gym and like,

• 1:12:36Speaker 07

  I remember one thing he said to me. He was like, just pay the 30 bucks a month. Like an investment in your body and your health is the greatest investment that you'll make in your life. And I just started going with him and I wasn't, I mean, I, I do enjoy lifting quite a bit now, but I wasn't trying to be like him, you know, like he's benching 315. Yeah. Yeah. Super jacked and I was like going and getting comfortable. And then I eventually just found myself like going to the cardio machine area and doing the stair climber or doing the elliptical machine. Like I couldn't even run on the treadmill at that point. And eventually I did start running on the treadmill and I was like, oh, I really like this. Like this makes me feel good.

• 1:13:14Cameron Hanes?

  Productive.

• 1:13:14Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's hard. It's challenging and I couple of months of doing that, I'd be going to the gym and just going there to run on the treadmill for 30, 45 minutes. And I'm like, why do I have this gym membership if I'm just gonna run on the treadmill? Like I can just run outside. So started running outside and yeah, I remember it being like super hard, you know, running on a treadmill is like totally different than running on the road if you've never done it. And

• 1:13:39Cameron Hanes?

  You don't have to propel yourself.

• 1:13:41Speaker 07

  Right, right.

• 1:13:41Cameron Hanes?

  You're just gonna go up.

• 1:13:42Speaker 07

  Yeah. And I remember doing a three or four mile run. I was like, shit, man, I can barely do this, you know? And I was like, just wanted to push myself. I was, I was, every time I ran, I wanted to either run a little bit further or a little bit faster. And that was kind of the beginning of like this obsession that had developed with me and running. And I think part of that's just like having such an addictive mind and I get obsessed over things really easily and I do, I really like to take things to the extreme, you know? So I just, running was just like filled this void in my life and became like a new healthy obsession outlet for me to, for me to do. And it like seriously changed my life.

• 1:14:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:26Speaker 07

  I like to say like running changed my life and ultra running ruined my life. You know, cause yeah, it's at, you know, when you're, when you're doing, when you're training and doing a hundred, 200 mile races, it's like all consuming and I don't really skate or surf anymore as much as I would like to, but I'm just so focused and dedicated to like seeing how far I can go with this whole ultra running thing. Yeah.

• 1:14:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. You're still, you're loving it still.

• 1:14:53Speaker 07

  I'm in love with it. Yeah.

• 1:14:55Speaker 04

  As somebody who kind of went through those hardships or struggles with body image, self-confidence, and then you started, you know, winning these races.

• 1:15:06Speaker 04

  I guess I can fit this into one. You know, it made me think about Gary Cantrell and he was talking about how like the losses, losing is coming like, and it's, it's going to be good. If, if a team has a complete winning streak, their first loss, there's a lot that can be learned from that. Is there kind of this built up pressure for when that streak ends? And have you attached some self-worth to all of these first place finishes?

• 1:15:30Speaker 07

  Yeah, I've thought about this a lot because I do, I don't, I mean, and again, Spartathlon happened. So like streak. But again, Spartathlon taught me a lot about the, and I agree with Gary, the power of everything going wrong. And like what you do with the lessons, you have to, you have to, if you apply them, then you actually win. Of course, I think that there's going to be pressure and I know that podcasters are going to be like, and Rachel takes ninth in like a shocking turn of events and like ha, ha, ha, you know, but that is not, I hope that when that happens, and I will say when that happens because it will.

• 1:16:14Speaker 07

  At some point I will not win everything forever. And when that happens, I hope to be strong enough to learn instead of just allowing that opinion to bury me.

• 1:16:28Cameron Hanes?

  To sit and yeah.

• 1:16:29Speaker 07

  Fester.

• 1:16:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:30Speaker 07

  Make some kombucha.

• 1:16:31Cameron Hanes?

  I think, yeah, I think you're gonna be, you're

• 1:16:35Cameron Hanes?

  so smart and deep thinking. I think you're just gonna like, it's, I don't know. It's one of those things where, hey, we get better from it. You know, it's just like you, you explained that with Spartathlon. It's just like, everybody's gonna fail. I don't care. I don't care who it is. It's just how you bounce back. And that's like, that's what a true winner is. So in some ways, I don't want you to lose, but in some ways, if that happens, I want to see how much better you come back because that's usually the catalyst to greatness.

• 1:17:06Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:17:06Cameron Hanes?

  Is being disappointed.

• 1:17:08Speaker 07

  Yeah. All winning teaches you is how to not, what things not to change.

• 1:17:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:13Speaker 07

  Losing or not losing, that's a hard word, but like

• 1:17:16Cameron Hanes?

  Reevaluate. Yeah.

• 1:17:17Speaker 07

  Exactly. Like that, that forces growth where winning does not do that. If anything, winning forces like stagnation.

• 1:17:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Like, hey, I need to keep doing what I've been doing.

• 1:17:29Speaker 07

  And it gets you so rigid and like, well, if I don't get these things, then like I won't win. So yeah, I don't know. I'm, I, I'm not going to say that I look forward to the day when I don't win a race. But part of me, it's, it's almost like gaslighting myself into thinking that running at night is fun. Part of me is like, all right, like let's see what happens on the day that I don't win.

• 1:17:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:51Speaker 07

  And let's see the person that emerges after that event happens and who that person is. And I hope I like that person. I came out with an episode, the first one of the series.

• 1:18:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:04Speaker 07

  And someone was like, this guy really thinks he's going to be able to do it. Like, I don't know what they thought, but I wouldn't announce this series and, and be training for it if I didn't think that I could do it.

• 1:18:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's not, it's not a game.

• 1:18:20Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:18:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:21Speaker 07

  No, no. I'm tying like this is everything. I'm giving absolute everything. I mean, you know me with weightlifting and like having muscle. I kind of built my identity around that. I'm giving that all up. I'm not even doing any pushups or pullups or anything like that. I'm just letting everything melt away with one goal in mind and that's crossing the finish line before two hours and 16 minutes.

• 1:18:45Cameron Hanes?

  Where are you at with your mindset when it comes to training and focus on a goal? What, first it was a pull-up world record, you know, and that was years in the making, years. Five years, I think from when Goggins was here training with us to when, maybe when you got it, but tell me like, what's the mindset? Do you ever waver that I don't know about?

• 1:19:08Speaker 07

  What I will say is just for people that are kind of questioning this, if it's possible for someone like me to do this. It was an impossibility, I'm sure. If you were to ask Goggins when he broke the record in 2013, you think someone will be able to do 10,000 in a day? And he does for, he did 4,030 in 17 hours. If you would have told him, there's some stupid white kid from Springfield, Oregon, he's going to do 10,000 in a day. Do you think that's possible? He'd be like, what? That's insane.

• 1:19:36Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:19:36Speaker 07

  That's 6,000 more.

• 1:19:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Speaker 07

  It just takes one person, right? That's what this whole thing's about. I might not have the same background as everyone else and I might have a weird running form. I might have too much muscle, this and that. If I'm, if you're willing to show up and put in the work, anyone can do anything, right? That, that, that's what I'm

• 1:19:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:57Speaker 07

  Essentially trying to prove and show, but for some reason, people don't even want me to try is what it seems like. I think they might be scared of what might come of it. If I am able to get it, is it a reflection on them?

• 1:20:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:11Speaker 07

  I'm, I'm not really quite sure, but to answer your question, with the pull-ups, there was very few moments where I felt like, you know, maybe this is a waste of time and I can't get it. There was that one moment you were talking about. I had just come off a failed world, world record attempt. Did 4,000 when I was supposed to do 8,100. And it took six months to get to the level to where I could do 8,100. And I think that was, so I failed in April and then in May is the day that I called you because Alicia was like, hey, true. It's going through like a mental breakdown. Can you talk to some sense into him? And yeah, I just,

• 1:20:51Cameron Hanes?

  Lost the plot for a second because I failed to realize the only thing that's stopping me from achieving this goal is myself. That's all that it was. Right. So that has carried now into this fast marathon and granted, there's nothing that really indicates that I should be able to run this fast yet, right? It's just, I'm willing to put in the work, I'm healthy, I always, I log the miles no matter how I feel, I'm going to give my hundred percent and all every single day toward getting faster. And no matter if that's diet, getting enough sleep, doing all the little things like hip

• 1:21:35Cameron Hanes?

  exercises, a core workout, and then get enough speed training sessions in, hundred mile weeks. I truly don't care, I'm willing to, I'm willing to do all of it. And if you're willing to do that, I think that at the very least, you're going to improve. So I'm struggling, I know that I'm going to improve.

• 1:21:59Cameron Hanes?

  There's some moments where I'm like, am I going to be able to improve to the point to where I can be one of the best marathoners in the country? I'm sure that I don't know, but I'm sure that I'm going to find out. Yeah.

• 1:22:11Speaker 06

  I was talking about this on Joe's podcast of telling myself we're going to do stuff and doing it. Where I used to tell myself we was going to do stuff, we didn't do it. So then my body started being like, you fatty, not listening to you, man. You don't never tell me the truth. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:22:22Cameron Hanes?

  You, you mentioned that, I think that was with your family when they were out there on that run that you did and they were cheering for you, your first, I don't know if it's your first run, but you're saying that they, they had no reason to believe in you. You hadn't given them any reason. You'd been lying to yourself your whole life.

• 1:22:40Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:22:41Cameron Hanes?

  And

• 1:22:41Speaker 06

  My body had no reason to listen to me.

• 1:22:43Cameron Hanes?

  Your body, your body knew that, oh, yeah, he, he thinks this stuff all the time, never happens.

• 1:22:48Speaker 06

  Never happens.

• 1:22:48Cameron Hanes?

  Whatever. Used to, used to basically not being true to your word to yourself.

• 1:22:53Speaker 06

  To yourself.

• 1:22:54Cameron Hanes?

  And then your family was, was used to you probably saying stuff and never doing it.

• 1:22:58Speaker 06

  Never doing it, I lied to them.

• 1:22:59Cameron Hanes?

  Right, so how, how, that changed?

• 1:23:02Speaker 06

  How? You slowly start building a rapport with yourself.

• 1:23:05Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:23:06Speaker 06

  And this is what I tell people, don't, that's what my therapist taught me, Mary B and Miles from onsite, Miles is like a mentor to me. You start little things you tell yourself you're going to do and you do them. You're just, just that easy. Like for me, it was real simple. Gary Brecker said, get in a cold plunge and walk 10,000 steps a day. I'm too fat to walk 10,000 steps. I'm going to get in this cold plunge because I'm a man, I should be able to sit in cold water for six minutes. You know what I mean? And I'm going to walk a half mile. I don't care what the weather is, I'm going to do it outside because I need sunlight. I like, I one, if I ever write a book, this will be a chapter in it, but it's like I adopted the cliches too. You know what I mean? Like the fun cliches, you see all the, but all the real dudes say like Huberman's like, wake up and get in the sun.

• 1:23:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:49Speaker 06

  You want to battle depression, just go look at the sun.

• 1:23:51Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:23:51Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? I'm like, dude, this is a neuroscientist telling us this. You know what I mean? Like I should do this.

• 1:23:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:56Speaker 06

  You know, so it's as simple as it's, but it's a cliche, you hear it your whole life. Like you don't feel good, just go take a walk in nature.

• 1:24:01Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:24:02Speaker 06

  It's like, yeah, if that would solve my problems, Linda, I'd just go walk in nature. You know, that's that victim mentality, right? You don't know what I've been through, Linda, you know? And then it's like, you start walking through nature and you're like, ooh.

• 1:24:12Cameron Hanes?

  I actually do feel better.

• 1:24:12Speaker 06

  It's happening. I feel better out here. I was like, I'm in a better mood.

• 1:24:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:17Speaker 06

  I'm a better husband because I took a little walk in the sunlight and thought about my day and how I was gonna, and then, you know, so I just started telling my body what I was going to do. And then I started, and then it gets deep, then I started being able to manifest more. Then I started telling my mind what we were going to do. I was like, look, look, we're in, we know it's going to take a while for the body to get here.

• 1:24:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:36Speaker 06

  But I need you to start thinking now.

• 1:24:37Cameron Hanes?

  Like, what's an example of that?

• 1:24:39Speaker 06

  Summer slam.

• 1:24:40Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:24:42Speaker 06

  When I fell down, when I got to choke slam Austin Thier and I got up from them ropes and I was, you know, big and the, the Miz and our truth helped me up. And I remember thinking, right then I started telling my mind like, we're in a wrestle. I'm embarrassed right now of how this just happened. Like I should, I should, I, I gotta do something about this, like.

• 1:25:01Cameron Hanes?

  What, that they had to help you up?

• 1:25:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. That was just so big, I couldn't even get myself up.

• 1:25:05Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:25:05Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Like just the basic ability to be so fat, like I'm responsible for a full family out here, Cam.

• 1:25:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:10Speaker 06

  And I'm not even a man enough to be able to get myself up in a timely enough fashion. You know what I mean? That they needed to help me to get me out of there for the TV had to cut.

• 1:25:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:17Speaker 06

  Like, you know, um, and I asked them to help me. What's even worse, before I went out there, I knew this was going to be a problem.

• 1:25:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:25Speaker 06

  I was like, hey y'all, when we hit the five knuckle shuffle, help you boy.

• 1:25:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:30Speaker 06

  That's a big, you know, I don't know anything, I don't know if I'm going to be able to get up. You know what I mean? Or I might have to roll out of the ring, I'm not sure. You know, that's a super like, and I remember feeling that feeling and sitting with it for a minute. And I was telling the body to do little stuff at the time. And I was like, this is where I'm going to start challenging the mind. I was like, I want you to start focusing on Logan Paul jumping off that top rope through a table on you. And I literally, everybody talks about manifestation, I didn't really start truly trying to manifest. I've always manifested things in a real way, but it was more in like a natural, just like belief of going forward way. This was me starting to be like, I want to see Logan Paul off that top rope.

• 1:26:05Cameron Hanes?

  So, so, but explain the difference.

• 1:26:07Speaker 06

  Well, so now I gotta start telling the body because you can't confuse the body. For me at least, I can't tell the body, we're going off the top rope next year, the body can be like, you, we couldn't stand up.

• 1:26:16Cameron Hanes?

  Prepare your body, yeah.

• 1:26:17Speaker 06

  Yeah. But I'm getting, I'm getting my mind strong now. I'm getting my mind like, because if I can start seeing it up here.

• 1:26:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:24Speaker 06

  Because I, I remember this, somebody used to be like, have you ever imagined yourself skinny? I couldn't see it. That's why I shaved my face.

• 1:26:30Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:26:31Speaker 06

  I couldn't even imagine it, like at my biggest, I couldn't imagine myself skinny. You know what I mean?

• 1:26:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:36Speaker 06

  So it's like, but I realized I was trying to imagine, I was trying, I was, my mind wasn't ready to go that far and my body already didn't believe anything my mind was doing. So my, my, my body doubled laughing, my mind thought that. You know what I mean? I had to start really small with just like little wins.

• 1:26:49Cameron Hanes?

  I'm Jelly Roll.

• 1:26:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:26:50Cameron Hanes?

  Jelly Roll's not skinny.

• 1:26:51Speaker 06

  First, you know what I mean? The body's like, you dude. So there would be little things, like I'm not going to eat one thing besides what's on my diet plan today. Like just today, like a drug addict. I went back to, back to like how I would when I first got sober. I started applying all these real core cliche principles. Yeah, exactly. Just one day at a time, just the old school, like.

• 1:27:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:10Speaker 06

  Today, what I love about real alcoholics and addicts, when you meet us, we're like, the dudes are no, like you, if you ask them how many years they've been sober, they'll tell you, but they're like, all that really matters is I've been sober today.

• 1:27:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:20Speaker 06

  You know what I'm saying? Like all of those years don't matter, they don't carry them like a trophy. Cause they know that they could it up today.

• 1:27:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:27Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? It's like, that was the mentality of like, I'm going to eat good today. You know, like even out here, I gave myself grace if I wanted to eat some of, um, Miss Robin's biscuits one morning, I would have.

• 1:27:39Cameron Hanes?

  Biscuits are good.

• 1:27:40Speaker 06

  And I was okay with that if I didn't.

• 1:27:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:42Speaker 06

  If I did or I didn't, but I woke up every day and I just, instead I told my mind, I was like, you know what? Because I gave myself the choice to eat the biscuits, I'm not. Today I'm going to choose, today I'm going to choose. You know what I mean? Like, and I just continue to, you know, I just continue to push. So I still live that very today thing, especially with my eating.

• 1:27:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:59Speaker 06

  Like I just gotta eat good today. That's all that really matters. I gotta make good decisions. Like I gotta, the only food decision I gotta make today is one, it's dinner and I'm going to make a good one.

• 1:28:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:08Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Like it's my next meal, just, that's all that matters.

• 1:28:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. No, I like that. It's a, yeah, I mean, it just has me wondering, so 500 pounds, need help to get up, all this, and this is after you actually made some, some gains, you did the 5K. Where does it turn into like, um,

• 1:28:30Cameron Hanes?

  an ultra marathon?

• 1:28:31Speaker 06

  Ooh.

• 1:28:32Cameron Hanes?

  You know what I mean? Where, where, where does that happen? Is it, is it the small wins along the way?

• 1:28:37Speaker 06

  That's the, ooh, I'm sorry to cut you off, but you just made me see a good example because we talked about it privately.

• 1:28:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:41Speaker 06

  I've told you, I've sent Cam Hanes a message, we should, uh, I don't know if we should post an hour saver for a real good time, but when I see him, I'm like, bro, we're going to run a ultra marathon together one day. Like I'm that dialed into this thing, you know? And, um, I think it's like, once again, it's me telling my mind, my mind is already like, you're going to do a marathon. But my mind's also, but, but my mind's smart enough, that's what it's thinking forward. But backwards, it's telling the body, you're just getting ready for a half marathon and march back.

• 1:29:06Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:07Speaker 06

  It's not, you just tell yourself you're going to, because you know what? You're going to do it.

• 1:29:10Cameron Hanes?

  Well, it's, it's like, it's like the eating, it's one day at a time. It's like, you can't do that half marathon unless you can do a run every day.

• 1:29:19Speaker 06

  For sure.

• 1:29:19Cameron Hanes?

  Or get out there to get some steps or be active or eat well. You're not going to do that unless you do today.

• 1:29:24Speaker 06

  Today, exactly. It starts with breakfast. I gotta eat it, okay. It starts with, it starts with waking up, I, I still fasted run for my first, because I still do three to five a day. So it's easier that way for me.

• 1:29:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:34Speaker 06

  So I still just wake up, drink a little water, hop on the treadmill, go get in the neighborhood. You know what I mean? Like, okay, I won that first battle, first battle done, only got one other battle, I'm going to go eat breakfast and I've already, and at that point I done did my run. So all I'm thinking about on my run is how good breakfast is going to be. Not a bad one, I don't want to put biscuits in me after I ran.

• 1:29:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:50Speaker 06

  I just went out here and fought all my demons this morning, you think I want a biscuit? Dude, I just conquered, I beat the devil this morning, dude. No, I won't.

• 1:29:56Cameron Hanes?

  I'm ahead.

• 1:29:56Speaker 06

  Somebody got a kale salad for me this morning.

• 1:29:58Cameron Hanes?

  I got house money right now.

• 1:29:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's like I'm on the up, you know? So it's like, I'm already winning.

• 1:30:02Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:30:02Speaker 06

  The momentum is pushing. You know what I mean? And this is my biggest thing to big people. And this is where I want to be really honest with them. That first year, if you're over 500 pounds or 400 pounds, it's really miserable. You don't enjoy one bit of the process besides the, the, besides what the, what you see happening. You will enjoy it.

• 1:30:19Cameron Hanes?

  Changes.

• 1:30:20Speaker 06

  But every walk miserable.

• 1:30:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:22Speaker 06

  The pain miserable, sleeping hard, posture, everything. I mean, it's just, it's not fun. You're breathing so hard on your walks that it, sometimes you can't think about nothing but just that. Like, you know, like you're not even getting to enjoy thinking on your walk. You're just like, one breath in, one breath out. But I just had to keep reminding myself, man, I did this to me, this shouldn't be easy. I deserve this. You know what I mean? Like I should, in fact, I want to remember every moment I'm feeling on here. And I said this early when I started, one day I was out there and I was like, my wife said, how was your run? I was like, I thought I was going to die out there today. You know, and I was walking. And the next day when I felt that again, it was the first time I looked at it different. It was, it was your lact, uh, lactic muscle fiber mentality.

• 1:31:04Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:31:05Speaker 06

  I looked at it all of a sudden when it started, when I really thought I was like, when I felt like my heart was going to go out of my throat. I said, speed up. Test that motherfucker.

• 1:31:13Cameron Hanes?

  Lean into it.

• 1:31:13Speaker 06

  See what it does.

• 1:31:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:14Speaker 06

  I bet it's resilient. I bet it's strong. You know what I'm saying? Like I bet, you know what it is? This isn't my heart fixing to blow, it's it getting strong.

• 1:31:22Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:31:22Speaker 06

  I'm actually feeling the growth of my heart right now. Like this is, I feel it pushing bad shit out. Like I could feel it, then I started thinking it that way, feeling it that way, like, ooh, this is the good stuff, I'm in the money now. You know what I mean? And, um, just super leaning into that kind of stuff, hitting the hill first. I mean, you talked about that.

• 1:31:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:31:40Speaker 06

  Like walking straight up that hill.

• 1:31:42Cameron Hanes?

  It's just, yeah, it's just that, what do you, what message are you telling yourself?

• 1:31:45Speaker 06

  What message are you, what's the story you're telling yourself?

• 1:31:47Cameron Hanes?

  The story you're telling yourself, yeah. I like that.