#1128 Chris Williamson On Understanding Human Nature & Modern Wisdom

Chris Williamson is the host of the “Modern Wisdom” podcast. In this episode, we discuss evolutionary psychology, changing careers, the modern man, space travel, human evolution, and his takeaways from speaking to individuals like Jordan Peterson & Jocko Willink. ======================= Amberdata provides the critical data infrastructure enabling financial institutions to participate in the digital asset class. We deliver comprehensive data and insights into blockchain networks, crypto markets, and decentralized finance. Download our Digital Asset Data Guide at https://www.amberdata.io/pomp ======================= OKX is the world's most powerful crypto exchange and is now the second largest in terms of volumes. It offers a comprehensive trading platform with over 730 spot trading pairs, 280 derivatives markets, and 1000 options markets. It processes 400,000 requests per second with 30 gigabyte per second data throughput and 99.95% uptime. For pro and institutional traders, they’ve just launched the OKX Liquid Marketplace, an on-demand liquidity network with multiple brokers where you can instantly trade spot, derivatives, and multi-leg structures at the price you want while bypassing the order book. They offer up to a 50% discount now. Go to OKX.com and try it now. ======================= Arculus knows a thing or three about security. Your assets are accessible through 3-factor authentication and by using the Arculus Wallet App and Arculus Key Card. Your keys are generated and encrypted on the Arculus secure element, rated CC EAL6+. This means you – and only you - own your keys and therefore, your crypto. Keep your digital assets secure and safe from exchange freezes, bankruptcies, and hacks with Arculus. Save 20% through 12/10 with promo code POMP ======================= This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. The Eight Sleep Pod is a tech layer that fits onto your mattress like a fitted sheet. The Pod dynamically cools and heats each side of the bed, to maintain the optimal sleeping temperature for what your body needs. With the Pod, you can start sleeping as cool as 55°F or as hot as 110°F. The result: Clinical data shows that Eight Sleep users experience up to 34% more deep sleep. Go to eightsleep.com/pomp for exclusive holiday savings and ring in the most wonderful time of night. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. ======================= Bullish is a digital asset exchange that offers industry-leading order depth, consistently tight spreads, and new ways to earn, with world-class security. Combining innovations of DeFi with the performance of a traditional, centralized order book, Bullish lets you trade with certainty across variable market conditions. All in a regulated environment. Learn more at Bullish.com and follow @Bullish on Twitter today. ======================= With a Messari Pro subscription, you gain access to exclusive industry-leading long-form daily research reports, daily crypto news & insights in your inbox, advanced asset screeners, curated sets of charts and metrics and so much more. Try Messari Pro today! Get up to 25% off their Messari Pro membership by visiting www.messari.io/pro and entering promo code "POMP" at checkout. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Chris Williamson is the host of a podcast called Modern Wisdom. I really enjoy listening to it and I highly suggest that you go check it out. In this conversation, we talked about a lot, everything from evolutionary psychology to whether you would condemn your family to go on a generational spaceship to preserve humanity. And also, we talk about many of the things that he's learned from his guests like Jordan Peterson, Jocko Willink, and many others. I really enjoyed this conversation with Chris and I hope you guys enjoy it as well. Once you get done listening to this episode, jump on Twitter, let us know what you liked and what you didn't like, what you agreed with, and what you didn't agree with. We really appreciate the feedback and it's how we get better. Alright, let's get in this episode with Chris. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Alright guys, bang, bang. I've got Chris here with me. I thought a great topic to start out with would be reinvention. I think you and I both, we've had like multiple lives, maybe not nine like a cat, but multiple lives. Walk me through like how you've thought about reinventing yourself multiple times. Is it intentional or does it kind of just happen? Are you following your interests? What's going on?

• 1:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, good point. So I do a podcast now and for a long time I was a nightclub promoter and in between that I did reality TV. So I guess I've done a few different iterations or whatever of being me. And yeah, I think that what you end up doing is outgrowing whatever it is that you do now and whatever you think you're calling is, kind of like a crab inside of a shell. And then it gets uncomfortable and you start to notice that things don't feel too right. And then you end up having to get rid of that. So my journey was go to uni, start a business, running nightlife, have a great time. I'm a young 20-year-old guy, like running nightclubs and everybody knows my name and I'm on the front door and stuff like that. But then- Toward the end of your twenties, I think a lot of guys encounter what I call the

• 2:09Speaker 02

  Mano Paws, which is this sort of situation where you realize all of the values and things that you used to look up to in other people aren't going to serve you anymore and they don't serve you. And for me, like, getting drunk and going out and having fun and stuff was fantastic at 21. But at 29, 30, I was thinking, is this really all that I've got to offer the world? Is this, you know, going out and partying with the boys on the weekend? Is that really what I'm gonna like max out life at? So I had to let go of some of those things. And one of the problems that you see is some people aren't prepared to let go of that because they're scared of whatever's on the other side of it. Or maybe they don't have any role models around them or any support in their friend groups that allow them to go on and do that. So for me, I had to, the pandemic was a really good thing. It was

• 2:51Speaker 02

  terrible for a lot of people, but it was great for forcing a change in my life because it shut down all nightclubs basically for two years. So I had to learn that I could exist without that. What is it like to not be the business owner I was before? And another big part of it, and it may be the same with you, is letting go of the identity that you used to be. Like, who am I if I'm not X? If I'm not the investor, if I'm not the podcaster, the club promoter, the reality TV guy, who am I then? Is that something that you noticed with yourself as well?

• 3:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, and I like the framing of it's outgrowing who you were rather than like a U-turn or like a hard right. It's you're still the same person. You're almost just kind of expanding, whether it's your ambition, your interests or whatever. And if you're outgrowing something, that I think insinuates improvement or like kind of moving forward. But it also means that like you're building on top of the things that you previously learned or experienced. So like a nightclub, while they probably have some negative connotations in some circles, I think there's also a lot of people who say to themselves, you probably learned a hell of a lot about human psychology, about business, about negotiating, about memetic desire. Like, talk a little bit about that experience and like, what exactly do

• 4:02Anthony Pompliano?

  you extract, you know, in hindsight from running nightclubs?

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:06Anthony Pompliano?

  That now you can actually use in the world?

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Biggest learnings, the almanac of running nightclubs. One of the biggest things, especially for business people, is the usefulness of anticipation when it comes to launching a product or doing anything else. So What's interesting about nightlife, especially in Newcastle, the northeast of the UK, these clubs weren't like what you've got here in Miami. Huge super clubs that have got very distinct identities. They were all basically rooms where people could get drunk to music. Like, you can dress it up however you want, you can call it whatever you want. This one can have pink branding and this one can give away free shots and this one can have R and B music and this one can have house music. But basically, it's the same product. So all that you're really competing on is the marketing and the hype. And what we realized was that if we created a very protracted, drawn-out launch sequence,

• 4:52Speaker 02

  it got people really bought in. And I came to realize or believe that a lot of people don't have all that much to look forward to, especially if you're young, eighteen to twenty-three. You can't afford to go and do the things maybe that you want to do. So you look forward to the next Jake Paul fight, right? You look forwards to the next release of Game of Thrones or whatever it is, because that's a big part of your existence. And what you need to try and do as a business is inject yourself into that. So there's a study done where they got people to self-rate their level of happiness throughout an entire night out. And the happiest point of the entire night was getting ready with their friends at about seven P M. So their friends would come over and they had some music on and the girls were doing the makeup or the boys were playing drinking games or whatever. Why?

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Well, it's often, as humans, our anticipation of the event is actually more enjoyable than the event itself. So we tried to pour this across into business. And the way we did that was that if we were to release a new event that we had coming up soon, we would announce something big coming soon, like more details this Sunday. And then we might release the day of the week or the venue that we were working in. And then we would release a teaser and then we would release a full trailer and then we'd release the launch date with tickets. Drawing that out allows you to give something. It extends the anticipation and the enjoyment of that experience and it really brings people into the narrative. So I was like, that was cool. And I now do this with Modern Wisdom, my podcast. If I've got a big guest, I have a couple of big guests coming up. My audience will hear about it a month before it happens. I'll be like, I've got someone big coming.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  Here's the person that's coming. Here's when I'm recording. Here's some shots from behind the scenes. Here's when it's going to be released. Here's a countdown to when it's released. Like, that's just me bringing them along for the ride. I'm in it already. And so that's definitely one big takeaway. I mean, there's a ton of other interesting shit, like watching men fight outside of nightclubs is fucking fascinating. Why? Because it's called the male monkey dance and there's usually a bunch of different steps. I can actually take you through them. So. What you see when you look at particularly male aggression under, how would you say, like less encumbered circumstances, i.e. that their front brain isn't working quite so much. So, male monkey dance. First off, you start with eye contact and a hard stare. What you're doing there is you're actually sizing up your opponent. Like, do I actually

• 7:01Speaker 02

  want to even begin confronting this person? You see this in animals as well, that they'll see each other and they'll begin to move, but they won't actually do anything that's too confrontational. The hard stare's enough. Verbal challenge, so like, what are you looking at? That will always come next. What you're trying to do there, male vocal tone is a massive indicator of formidability. So, one of the biggest things that you have, your vocal box grows as you grow taller. So, what you're looking for, deeper voices are perceived as being more formidable and more intimidating. So, when you say, what are you looking at? Like, what do you want? You're actually using the voice box as a proxy for how tough the other guy is, and yours as well. So, you'll hear that men will lower their voice when they do that. Number three, the closing of distance, possible

• 7:46Speaker 02

  chest bumping, and this is when the arms extend as well. So, what you're doing with the arms extending, and you see this in UFC fighters, right? They'll do that when they stand on the scales. They're trying to make themselves look as big as possible. Dogs do this, the hackles get raised. Like, all animals try and make their physical size as big as possible if they're trying to stop confrontation. And what's actually interesting that's happening here is, at each step, you're trying to avoid confrontation. You're not trying to get to the stage where you actually do have something physical occur. Humans are 100 times, or they're 1% as aggressive as chimps, but they have the same level of death lethality. So, it's 100 times more lethal and happens 100 times less frequently.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Reason being that the ability of humans to be able to kill each other was enabled by tools and weapons. And like, that means that you need to be very, very careful. You need, if you want to go, you need to go. Whereas, it seems like chimps, much more aggressive, but they're not going to, they're not going to do as much damage. So, you've got the closing of distance, chest bump, arms. Again, like, that's just feeling them out, especially if you were to do a push, like that finger poke or two Two handed push to the chest, number four, like that again, like, does this person really want to go? Like, I need to feel their power. I need to feel how big they are. At any stage here, someone could step in. Someone could try and sort of deescalate the situation. What you're also doing is you're allowing other people to get in. And maybe separate you guys so that neither of you show a loose face.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  And then finally, a dominant dominant hand roundhouse punch if the person is untrained in combat. So that's the sequence that you see. But when you watch it, you see guys, they'll circle each other. Like, why are you circling each other? Well, that's what stag deer do as well. Like stag deer circle each other. They're gonna size each other up. They're gonna like move from left to right. That's fucking interesting. Another thing that I learned recently, which I thought was absolutely fascinating, is that there's unspoken rules in a no rules fight. So for instance, if you see a street fight, first off, the opponents are always going to be usually males of a similar size and a similar age and a similar competence. It makes no sense for a man of thirty five years old to try and fight a twelve year old or a seventy year old, right?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  The reason that you have a fight is in order to determine who is the most physically dominant between two people where the answer isn't already obvious, right? So we need the fight in order to be able to judge what's going on here. So you think, okay, we need a reliable test of whether me or you are tougher in a street fight. So what that means is that we need to play by the same rules, because if you play by a set of rules that's different to mine, that makes the outcome of the contest neutralize. It's no longer a reliable sense of whether or not one is tougher than the other. So eye gouging, like grind shots, biting, usually kicking when someone's on the floor.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  All of this, even in a no rules street fight, would usually be frowned upon, and especially if someone was to pull a weapon out. If you're having a fist fight and then someone pulls out a knife, all bets are off. Now, this is no longer a reliable test of whether or not one person's tougher than the other. And the fascinating thing is this gets reflected in movies. So think about the born supremacy or the born ultimatum. Every single film, Jason Bourne goes into some apartment in Paris and there's some bastard in a black balaclava waiting for him and they'll start with a fistfight, right? So fair contest, two men, equal sort of size, equal sort of competence. And usually Jason will hit him and smash him through a table or whatever. Then the guy will pull out a weapon, but Jason doesn't have a weapon.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Okay, so what we see here is that the opponent has escalated and Jason now somehow needs to use a less effective tool in order to be able to even the stakes. So he'll get like, in one of them, he kills a guy with a biro and another one he uses a book, sort of punches this book into his chest or into his neck or something. So again, with that, you, even written into movies, we have this inherent understanding that there are rules that people are supposed to follow and that when someone breaks them, that kind of opens up another level. And almost always the guy falls out of a window after Jason like hits him with the book or something and then he falls to his death. But yeah, watching the aggression of guys, watching mating dynamics generally, like who

• 11:59Speaker 02

  goes for who and the chatter procedure and then learning about the anticipation effect. Like those were three pretty big learnings.

• 12:06Anthony Pompliano?

  What are some of the other unwritten rules that you see, especially like around mating? So the fighting, I think you just nailed it, right? In terms of, I think everyone who's seen a fight happen, whether it's at a nightclub or somewhere else, can say, yep, I saw this, this, this, and this. And like, that's pretty much how they go. I also think it's interesting that young boys, when they fight, which many of them do, almost all of them do at some point in their life, they are almost reinforced certain social norms, like don't kick that guy in the dick, right? Is like a, a thing that you know that you can do, but there's almost like a gentleman's agreement that like, if we're gonna fist fight, like that's off limits. So this kind of unwritten rule. When it comes to the nightlife and mating, what are some of the rules there or unwritten

• 12:48Anthony Pompliano?

  rules that like every single person that runs a nightlife venue is like, yep, I know this happens, but like the average amateur eye may not actually realize it's going on?

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Girls that walk into nightclubs with jackets around their shoulders but not their arms in the sleeves almost always get kicked out within thirty minutes. That's got nothing to do with mating, that's just like a fucking effect that I've noticed. You see a girl walk in, all of the door staff will go, she's gonna get kicked out soon. And sure enough, she does. I don't know what it is, there's just something, girls, stop, stop putting your hands not in the sleeves of your jacket because it causes you to get into fights or whatever like half an hour later. When it comes to mating in nightclubs particularly, it's kind of just like a rough-hewn thing because alcohol's involved, it can be quite like serendipitous. If you're at the right place at the right time, there's a famous show, The Inbetweeners in the UK, and they're talking to each other, oh no, actually no, this is American Pie, where they say, you know, you see those movies and in them like drunk girls make mistakes

• 13:41Speaker 02

  with guys, we could be those guys. Like that, I think, is what a lot of copulation and the dating that occurs in nightlife comes from. But certainly some of the interesting stuff I've learned recently that kind of relates to that and also relates to the male monkey dance. There was a study done where they got videos of men, they showed videos of men to both women and to men. They asked the women how sexually attracted they were to the guys. They asked the men how likely they thought that man was to win a fight with another man. Hmm. Eighteen months later, they came back to the guys that were in the videos and they looked at how many sexual partners they'd had over the last eighteen months. The girls' sexual attractiveness ratings had zero correlation.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  The men's judgments of formidability were both strong and significant in terms of predicting the number of sexual partners. Interesting. So men and their understanding of formidability is a better predictor of mating success than female sexual attraction, at least self-rated female sexual attraction, right? There's a difference between stated and revealed preferences, like it might be that they don't want to say that they're actually attracted to this guy, that whatever it might be. But that's, and that's been replicated a ton. What it suggests is that women pick off the top of a competing hierarchy of men, they just let men fight it out between, this is Peterson's thing, right? You just let men work out the hierarchy between them and then you just take the top filtering from that.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  We were talking earlier on, like before we started, about some high-performing friends and stuff. The guys that you know that are high-performing Women will just let let men do what they need to do and then they'll go, okay, he's the guy that won. Like, women that have no interest in sport will be attracted to the best player on the team. You don't even know the rules of the game. You literally have no idea what the rule you you don't know how to trade. You don't know how to fucking here's a good one. Guys that are great at esports, like dudes that are fantastic at gaming. Do you even play? Does the girl even play this game? Probably not, but she knows that that guy's the best. And if he's the best, that's the one that I want.

• 15:44Anthony Pompliano?

  How much of that is, uh, women are attracted to men and maybe even men are attracted to women who are just excellent at something, right? So it ends up being, um, the FTX blow up recently happened and, uh, there was a Tumblr for, uh, the CEO, uh, the woman who's the CEO of the hedge fund. And in it, I guess she had a list of like, here's all the things that I find attractive in men. And one of them was like, uh, control multiple world governments or like, like, like, something that was just like, wait, what? Right? Uh, okay. Sure. Uh, but like, to me, that's like a, a measure of excellence, I guess. Like, how much of it is just literally, it doesn't even matter what the thing is, whether it's physical, it's intellectual, it's, uh, spiritual, whatever.

• 16:27Anthony Pompliano?

  It's just like, if you're excellent, that is attractive to somebody.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I'm not sure about this in the data, but you know, anecdotally, people like to admire their partners. You don't want to pity your partner, right? Like, if you've got someone that's competent at something, if your misses is really good at what she does, it's fucking cool. It's kind of sexy that she's good at her thing. Now, you don't want to be better at your thing than you are, but you wanted to have her own thing. And definitely for men, absolutely for men, that there's just, there's something attractive about being, uh, an admirable person, about having traits, uh, and being someone that others look up to. You have to remember as well, you've got this sort of pre-selection thing that if other people look up to you, that makes it easier for you to choose that partner. Cause you go, well, everybody else is looking toward this particular person. They're

• 17:13Speaker 02

  the ones that are the best. Why don't I follow that? So yeah, I, I think that you're right, that competence is something generally that's like attractive and, uh,

• 17:21Speaker 02

  And admirable and works well to improve mate value.

• 17:24Anthony Pompliano?

  What about safety, right? So we talked earlier about if there's a fistfight between two men, they try to look as big as they possibly can. There's almost this like testing and formatability, like probing that's going on.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 17:36Anthony Pompliano?

  How does mating and that fit into it? Is it, if you see a guy go and knock another guy out, I'm assuming most people would come to the conclusion like, oh, women are going to say, oh, that guy is attractive. That is somebody that I want to go talk to or whatever. But what about the perception? So there is no fight. There is no ability to actually get a kind of objective answer as to who would win in that fight. Is it just whoever's perceived to provide the most safety? Or is there some other way to look at it?

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this is looking at the evolutionary psychology stuff that I've been kind of obsessed by recently. It seems like fundamentally, women want guys that are protectors and providers, right? So you need to be someone that is useful if the world comes to an end and can either outrun, outfight, or outpay the people that are in the room, right? Like, that's a good way to look at it. So, yeah, I think if you were to ask most women, would you rather be with a guy that makes you feel safe or with a guy that makes you feel unsafe? A guy that can protect you or a guy that can't protect you? Most of them are going to go for the one that can protect them. If you were to ask guys the same question about women, I don't think that that's going to matter so much because fundamentally, women on average don't tend to be able to provide as much protection. So, yeah, I think that

• 18:46Speaker 02

  there's a safety element there. There's a pre-selection that dominance is something that's very, that seems to be very attractive in women. Dude, I learned some fucking fascinating stuff about women's ovulatory cycles.

• 18:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  The way that their behavior changes. It's fucking wild. So when women are in the first half of their cycle, they're fertile, they can get pregnant. During that time, they have a preference for masculinized faces. They have a preference for men's T-shirts that are higher in testosterone. So if a man that's higher testosterone and lower testosterone and she gets to smell both of them, she'll prefer the one that's high tea. Now, you get toward the back end of the cycle, and women prefer men who have got more feminized faces. They prefer men that are lower in testosterone. The interesting thing is now, because of hormonal birth control being so widely used. Women are naturally suppressing their cycles and they're stuck in that second half. So women at the moment are over selecting for more feminized men, for low testosterone men.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  And this means that-

• 19:42Anthony Pompliano?

  We're fucked.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  It's not, it's not, it's not, it's not great for a certain cohort of, of guys out there.

• 19:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, as a society, though.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Well, no, because you're, you're selecting for men previously who wouldn't have been the ones that would have been mated with. Now, there's an interesting question to ask about, should you, should you use the old rules of high dominance, high testosterone as being the preference criteria for women to now mate with, given that we have a secure world that doesn't need that anymore? Like, that's an interesting question to ask. But what definitely seems to be the case is, women who choose their partners when they're on birth control, report lower levels of sexual satisfaction with them when they come off. And this is like, the golden rule. If you're in a relationship, if you're a girl or a guy and you're on birth control, you need to come off before you decide to get married, move in together, do all of that sort of stuff.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Because a lot of the time, women's hormonal profile changes so much that they find out that when they come off birth control, they're just not that attracted to their partners anymore.

• 20:42Anthony Pompliano?

  So, uh, I was at dinner with my wife and a couple of other couples, and the woman who sat next to my wife was a, I want to say sexual psychologist, maybe? She said. And it was one of those things where like, you don't really think those people exist until they tell you that's what they do. And so, uh, she also happened to be very forthcoming and, and constantly just like interjecting into the conversation, all these things that she understood. So like, we were learning a lot, which was interesting, but also at the same time, we're like, we're trying to have a conversation, like, it's not all about the, the sexual psychology of it. And she said this, and it blew my mind, because she was basically explaining, not in such an eloquent way, but she was explaining that like, there, in her mind, was a very

• 21:22Anthony Pompliano?

  uh, high correlation, or at least some connection in some way that could be measured, between uh, the rise of birth control and the increase in divorce rate. And what she was trying to explain was like, the later you get in your life, the less you may actually be using the birth control. And therefore, that could be driving the higher divorce because actually your preferences have changed. And it fascinated me. I was like, I'd never even thought about that. But it seems like the science is starting to catch up to that. And so you're saying, hey, maybe the woman should come off of birth control as a, hey, I really want to make sure that I'm attracted to this person.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 21:57Anthony Pompliano?

  But is there actually an argument that like, if you want to make a good selection of a husband, if you're a woman, that being on birth control could like deter that? Or like somehow muddy the waters and like you're increasing the odds of making a false positive choice?

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, if there is a risk that when you come off birth control, you're going to be more dissatisfied with your partner. A solution to that is to just not be on birth control. But obviously that's you're sort of rolling the dice a little bit there unless you want to be completely celibate as a woman. And then you've got like other types of protection, which you know, those also have, they're not completely perfectly secure. So.

• 22:34Anthony Pompliano?

  And just real quick, I think there's also this part of like, what is someone optimizing for? Like from a male standpoint or a female standpoint, like what are you optimizing for? A lot of times like people will come to me and they're like, oh, I'm in this situation, you know, what do I do? And what my question is just like, what are you optimizing for?

• 22:48Speaker 02

  What do you want?

• 22:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? Like, yeah. And if you can determine what you want, there's a lot of people who say like, I don't want to get pregnant. Right? Or I don't want this, or I do want X or Y. And so if you understand that, then you probably can actually structure your life and what you're doing on a day to day basis to pursue what you want, which therefore then will drive outcomes that you may or may not intend.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  The problem is that most women and guys don't know the side effects that come with hormonal birth control. Like they'll know how it makes them feel. Most girls say that it sort of dampens down their sex drive, that it makes them feel both like pleasure and pain, happiness and sadness less richly. And it does a bunch of, it makes them more tired, makes them gain weight, makes them more hungry, make a bunch of other stuff, right? That's second half of the cycle stuff. But the psychological things, I don't think that many people have known about. The research is Dr. Sarah Hill, if anyone's listening and they like the sound of this, Your Brain on Birth Control, or I've actually got an episode which will be out by the time that people are listening to this. So they can go and check that out on Modern Wisdom. It's Dr. Sarah Hill.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  The issue that you have is if women aren't fully aware of the psychological side effects of being on birth control, then not making, it would be like you making some sort of call with regards to investment without knowing all of the information to do with the market or the company you were investing in. And you go, well, if I knew more, would I have made a different call? Well, yeah, but you didn't. So it's important that you educate women around this. And yeah, for sure, the issue that you have with regards to divorce, medium term, longer term, absolutely could be due to women staying on birth control, maybe even staying on it through the wedding as well. Okay, now let's finally have kids. You do decide to come off in order to have children and attraction drops because.

• 24:31Anthony Pompliano?

  How would the world change if men had to take birth control and men had to be the ones giving birth? So we keep men and women biologically in terms of like testosterone levels, estrogen, psychology, like all these components. But in mythical land, not possible, but mythical land, we just said, okay, now the responsibility is for the man to remember to take birth control. The responsibility is that the man's psychologically going to be impacted by doing this to prevent pregnancy. The, my wife and I have talked about, like, I don't think there would be as many babies if men had to get pregnant.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Fucking chaos. It would be fucking chaos.

• 25:08Anthony Pompliano?

  We're like, nah, fuck that.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Dude, I mean, there's, there's an interesting question around like, why isn't there a male birth control pill? And that's the reverse of what you're asking. If it was on men to take that birth control pill.

• 25:22Anthony Pompliano?

  The magic pill, whatever it was.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, whatever it is that stops women from getting pregnant, the woman is putting her future in the hands of a man saying, yeah, don't worry, honey. Like I took it this morning. At least if a woman misses her own pill, she knows that it was within her control. But if the man misses it and she gets pregnant, she still bears all of the costs while he's the one that said that he was doing the thing. If men were the ones that got pregnant, the world would be a fucking shit show.

• 25:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Because men aren't predisposed to be as patient, as conscientious, as nurturing, as loving, as caring. They don't have the same profile that is needed in order to be able to raise children in that way. They're an important person to have around the house. But any, I mean, you know, your, it's first birthday of one of yours today.

• 26:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Would you say that it's right that within the first couple of years, you're kind of more like an observer when it comes to raising children?

• 26:10Anthony Pompliano?

  There are certain parts for sure where the extreme example is like, the baby is crying at night, it's six months old, and no matter what you try to do for that baby, that baby don't give a shit about you, it wants her mom. And she's like, where is mom? And so you can go, you can have the greatest voice and sing, you can try all kinds of different positions. You can do whatever you want, you could be in the circus. The baby wants the mom. And I'm assuming that most of that is just biological, just, you know, human instinct in saying, where's my mom? My mom has safety, my mom has food, my mom has like all these things. And so it then brings into question like, well, what happens for the babies who unfortunately don't have the mom in the first year, the first five years or whatever? And then what is the divergence of path, right?

• 26:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, one of the things I've talked about on the podcast before is there was a study done where kids of families that are considered more affluent, they hear more words. And it's something on the order of magnitude. I think it was like either 3 million or 30 million. I can't remember exactly, but like millions of more words are spoken to them before they get to kindergarten than kids who are from families that are not affluent. And so what you can see is already there's like this compounding effect. Well, we know that hearing more words and more language helps you to develop your brain faster and you become more advanced. So now all of a sudden you start to overlay affluence with the development of a child, simply because the parents either have time or they care or they whatever to speak to the child

• 27:36Anthony Pompliano?

  more than if they didn't qualify for as high of an affluence level. It's fascinating.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Well, remember as well that affluence and income is probably going to be correlated with a bunch of heritable traits, like maybe IQ, maybe spatial awareness, maybe memory and reasoning, maybe conscientiousness, orderliness, stuff like that. So yeah, you do get this, what's called a Matthew principle.

• 27:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, what's that?

• 27:59Speaker 02

  From the Bible, from those who have everything more will be given, from those who have nothing more will be taken. And this is how you end up with the haves and the have nots, right? And yeah, the stuff when you're looking at... Child rearing is fucking terrifying. There's some behavioral genetics stuff which I've been into for a little while. Book called Blueprint by Robert Plowman, who's probably the world's number one behavioral geneticist. And I'm gonna play a little game with you, alright?

• 28:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  So.

• 28:27Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm so terrified.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  I'm going to ask you how heritable you think different traits are.

• 28:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Amongst people in terms of a percentage. So 100% would be you are like it's 100% heritable. 0% is there is no correlation between your parents and you. Okay?

• 28:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Eye color?

• 28:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Eye color, uh, probably low.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Heritability?

• 28:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  95%.

• 28:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Now you have me thinking like, what does he think I'm gonna say so I can say the other? Okay, alright, go ahead.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Height?

• 28:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Height, uh, probably pretty high.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  80%.

• 28:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Weight?

• 29:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Weight, uh, also pretty high. 70, 70%.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  70%. Schizophrenia?

• 29:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Ooh. I don't know. Maybe it is like, uh, one of two, one of three, like type thing?

• 29:12Speaker 02

  50%.

• 29:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Autism?

• 29:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Autism, uh, probably lower.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  70%.

• 29:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow, it's much higher, okay.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  School achievement?

• 29:21Anthony Pompliano?

  School achievement. Oh, I would actually think that's probably, most people would think it's low, but I think it's probably higher.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  60%.

• 29:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Verbal ability, 60%. Remembering faces, 60%. Spatial ability, like navigation, 70%. General intelligence, like reasoning, 50% and personality, 40%. So basically, this guy.

• 29:40Anthony Pompliano?

  What about just pure IQ?

• 29:42Speaker 02

  0.8 by the end of life. 80%. So all of the school, all of the nutrition, all of the studying, all of the time spent listening to fucking podcasts and having a, an Ebbinghaus forgetting curve spaced repetition program to help you remember your notes and your Anki playlist. All of that is worth 20%. Like, the single best thing that you could do for your kids if you want to improve their outcomes in life is choose the person that you have them with very carefully. That's the most important thing. Now, the problem is this gets perilously close to eugenics, right? But everybody's committing eugenics when they choose one partner over another. Like, why is it that you like your wife and don't like another wife? Like, well, it's because there are certain cues that she has given you that you interpret quite rightly as like beauty and poise and grace and kindness and all of these things. But like, when you actually boil those down, they're fitness

• 30:27Speaker 02

  cues. Like, they're cues that I have fantastic genetics, the sons and daughters that we would have together would be of high genetic quality. Like, that is what you're talking about. So when it comes to the heritability fact, like.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  It's really uncomfortable to hear that all that you're doing, everything that you're doing with regards to your, like, let's say, spatial reasoning, which I think was 50% or something, like, all of the work that you do on that, fighter pilots and stuff, like, basically, everybody that's good at most of the things that they do had a huge predisposition when it came to it. Like, it would be very, very hard for you to have, to not have the genes for, like, conscientiousness, which is the hard-working, go-get-a-thing, and for you to be a pro athlete. Like, almost all pro athletes are probably going to be in, like, the 90th percentile or something for conscientiousness. And, um, this is difficult in a meritocracy, right? Because you're supposed to own your own successes, and also, if you

• 31:22Speaker 02

  own your successes, then the people who are failures own their failures. During, uh, ancient Greece, the word that they referred to the beggars on the streets as was "unfortunates." They were called the unfortunates because Lady Fortuna hadn't blessed them, right? And I think Fortuna was the, the god that had, um, uh, the, the scales. And the reason for that was that with one hand she gives, but with the other hand she takes away. Uh, roll the clock forward now, and what do we call the people that don't succeed and lay about on the couch? They're losers. So we've gone from a situation where fortune was something that was bestowed on all of us and taken away from all of us, to now something where people are the owners and the architects of their own failures. But when you look at

• 32:06Speaker 02

  some of the stuff from behavioral genetics, or, you know, an affluent family to a non-affluent family, how is 50 million fewer words, you, you arrive at kindergarten at three years old, four years old, uh, you're on the back foot. Yeah. You can outwork that, but again, you, I, I think it's, I think it's unrealistic to claim that people have the, uh, uh, an even playing field when they come in.

• 32:29Anthony Pompliano?

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• 33:13Anthony Pompliano?

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• 34:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Go to Arculus and use promo code POMP today. So take something like Eugenics, which it feels like we understand much more about genetics today than we did five years ago. 10 years ago is definitely 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago.

• 34:59Anthony Pompliano?

  It also feels like it's a topic that when people discuss eugenics in general, but also more specifically, certain types of genetic traits, things like IQ and how correlated it is to who your parents are, whatever, there is a moral argument, there's an ethics argument that gets made that immediately is like, that's off limits.

• 35:20Anthony Pompliano?

  When you go back in history, a lot of different things that at the time had moral ethic kind of antithetical views or kind of were put in a category in society as taboo, today we accept this fact. And one of the craziest ones, like the earth is flat versus the earth is round. Like, there literally was people who were like, you are an idiot. There were people who were killed for believing this. Now, that's not necessarily a moral ethic thing explicitly, but like now, literally, you know, there's a professional basketball player who said the earth is flat and people ridiculed them. And they're like, you're an idiot. They didn't kill him, but they were like, you're an idiot. They had like a, basically like a, a, a public shaming.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  Who said this?

• 35:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Kyrie Irving. Un- unknown whether he was being serious or not. He went to Duke. And so, people, I'm a Duke fan, so it's like, hey, man, come on, like.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  You're making this look bad.

• 36:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, I, it's unclear whether he was trying to antagonize people and kind of, you know, poke them a little bit and just see how dumb they thought he really was, or, or he really believes it. Either way, he was ridiculed for it. And so you go over a couple of centuries, like, literally, we will kill you for believing this, to like, now we will shame you for believing the thing that used to be accepted fact. Fascinating, because that is, I don't know, three, 400, 500 years. When you look at genetics today, it's like on the fringe. Like, we're just now starting to understand some of this stuff. Like, when you read this out, like, you literally asked me about eye color, and I think you're trying to ask me a trick question, right? And, and it's like, hold on a second, like, we don't even know enough about this, and I'm not even confident enough in the science to know where are some of these traits?

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 36:51Anthony Pompliano?

  A hundred years, 200 years from now, are they gonna look back at us and be like, these idiots knew certain traits or, or certain diseases, certain propensities, and they did nothing about it? Which, again, I understand every single argument against the whole eugenics thing and everything, and, and I'm sympathetic to many of them, and, and believe that it is probably one of the scariest, like, most, a, a lack of understanding around, like, what would the ramifications be? What are the ethics? Like, like, I don't know. I'm a complete moron when it comes to the nuances of it, and there's experts that are better at it than me. But it does feel like something where we're starting to learn enough. And if you follow kind of that direction of progress, 200 years from now, before you're born, they're gonna know everything.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:36Anthony Pompliano?

  And if they make decisions on it based on today's ethical and kind of societal framework, will it violate it? I don't know. It's like a fascinating question.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Looking at judging the actions of tomorrow by the standards of today, or the actions of today by the standards of tomorrow are like really terrifying things. This is how someone like Kevin Hart can have a tweet brought up from 10 years ago, where he uses a word which back then, nobody picked up on, but now is completely unsayable. Right?

• 38:05Anthony Pompliano?

  And that's only 10 years.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  Yes, precisely. I think with CRISPR, with genetic engineering, you're going to see, I mean, we've already had that guy in China who engineered those two twins to be more resilient, I think, to HIV. Turns out there was a third one. It wasn't just two, there was a third sister as a part of those girls. Like, obviously, the CCP just great with transparency. And long term, I don't know what that's going to look like. But what you see a lot of science doing, especially when it comes to stuff that humans do naturally, is science tries to reinvent and re-explain what humans intuitively have already been able to do. So let me explain. I throw a ball to you right over here.

• 38:45Speaker 02

  That is going at whatever it is, like 3.4 meters per second squared down in a parabolic line, and this is the velocity and all the rest of it. They've just about managed to be able to make robots that can move a bucket to catch the ball when you throw the ball at it. If I threw a ball at a three-year-old, he would be not far off being able to move the hand around to be able to catch it. It's like, hang on a second. So humans have something inbuilt in them which allows them to understand how gravity works so that they can catch the ball appropriately. Right? It also means that they can throw, they can judge distances, they can judge depth, all this shit. And we're just about trying to re-engineer that into code so that that can actually be done outside of the human system. When it comes to looking at genetic traits, again, the same thing. Why is it that?

• 39:31Speaker 02

  You are attracted to what you're attracted to. Symmetrical faces, for example. Symmetrical faces are more difficult to grow as a human than unsymmetrical faces, which is why we are attracted to symmetrical faces because they suggest stronger genetics. If there are fewer breaks in the genetic code, kind of a little bit over my skis here, but if the genetic makeup of the person has fewer errors in it, you end up with a more symmetrical face is what I understand. So if that's the case, and when you look at someone that is more symmetrical versus less symmetrical and you choose the more symmetrical one, are you doing eugenics? Is that eugenics there? Well, kind of, any mate preferences. The waist to hip ratio that women have, that's a fertility cue.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Women that have high waist to hip ratios seem on average to be more fertile. They have more children. Okay, so if you choose the girl with the hourglass physique over the girl with the non hourglass physique, that's eugenics. And that mate selection is that. Now, the problem is when you take this and you use it to justify awful fucking policies, right? When you start to talk about superiority, when you start to talk about differences in group IQ to justify different things like that, that's when you're going too far. But understanding the way that genetics influences what goes for it, like Huntington's disease, if two partners, sorry, if one partner has Huntington's disease and the other partner also has that gene, like the kid's getting Huntington's disease.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  I don't know if it's even illegal, is it illegal for two people with Huntington's to marry and have kids? Very well might be, right? Like, fucking, why are brother and sister not allowed to marry and have kids? Like, for the exact same reason.

• 41:10Anthony Pompliano?

  They do in some states. Just kidding, just kidding, just kidding.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Dude, I'm from Texas.

• 41:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Just kidding. No, but I think what you're highlighting here is like, we are much more comfortable with the implicit kind of aspect of it when it becomes explicit, when it is called out and people then say, because of X, I am going to do Y. It's uncomfortable, right? And like, I think even if you were to interview people who were like, there's no problem with this, like, we should do it. And you start asking them a lot of like, super nuanced questions, they get in like some pretty gray area pretty quickly to the point where people are like, ah, this makes me feel uncomfortable.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Dude, if you stress test most of the people that have got pretty nasty ideas hard, they end up falling to pieces quite quickly because.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  A lot of the, and this is the problem with behavioral genetics, with evolutionary psychology as well, it can be weaponized by some pretty nasty groups in order to justify some pretty fucking heinous things. And that, that's something that you can really only watch out for if you know what to watch out for. Like, putting your head in the sand doesn't really work. But dude, I mean, rolling the clock forward and thinking about what's gonna happen with genetic engineering. I was talking to this guy who's trying to re-engineer human DNA to be able to survive spaceflight. So one of the problems that we've got is that there's tons of fucking radiation as soon as you get outside of the atmosphere. And then, is it the Kuiper Belt? What's the thing that protects the solar system? There's something else that protects the solar system against solar wind. Once you get outside of that, it's just radiation all day. So the human DNA is gonna break down. So this

• 42:42Speaker 02

  guy is trying to re-engineer human DNA to be more resistant to a bunch of these other things. You wanna talk about an interesting ethical question. Let's say that you can go on a generation ship that you and future generations will live on in order for us to get to the closest habitable planet that we can find. But by you saying yes to going on it, you commit

• 43:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Your kids or your grandkids?

• 43:08Speaker 02

  10 future generations, or 20 future generations for the next half millennia for being on there as well. Like, is that a choice that you get to make?

• 43:18Anthony Pompliano?

  It gets into long-termism. I don't know if you've looked at this, William McCaskill, all these guys. I recently was reading the book,

• 43:26Speaker 02

  What Will Be the Future?

• 43:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes. And he started to outlay how many people have lived versus how many could live in the future. Dude, we don't fucking matter.

• 43:39Anthony Pompliano?

  You start looking at it, and at one point, he's like, you know, okay, he has like these 10, I think I'm gonna remember this correctly, but he's got like 10 kind of human figures, right? And he's like, each one of these 10 is basically a billion people. He's like, okay, now I'm gonna take that same figure, and I'm gonna color it in black. Now it's 10 billion people. And he goes, if the world lasts for whatever, 500 million years, or whatever it is, he's like, this is how many people are Still yet to live in the future and he fills the whole first page, the whole second page, the whole third page and about half of the fourth page. And he goes, by the way, I'm just going to stop now, but I could have filled 20,000 books with these black little figures because that's how many people we have yet to go. I hope that like me stopping the diagram gets the point of course.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Sufficiently illustrative. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes. And so his argument and kind of this whole argument of long-termism is basically the decisions we make today do have an impact in the future. And if we take it seriously, like although we may not meet them, we should care what world they live in, et cetera. You're extrapolating even further than you're saying, no, no, it's not just about like on earth. It's like you may make a decision today, like go onto a generational spaceship that will take your entire family lineage on a, on a intergalactic journey that they may not be excited about.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Yep. Yeah.

• 44:56Anthony Pompliano?

  And are you considering the ethical ramifications? Is there legal ramifications? How about the grandparents? How about the uncles and aunts that may not be able to interact with those people? Like, dude, what?

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Condemning people to be born, live and die, like that's your whole life. You're never going to touch earth. And this is going to be something that we're going to have to come up against unless we can wormhole our way or faster than light travel our way. And it seems very likely that we're going to get to interplanetary travel with sufficient protection in order to be able to make generation ships viable before we manage to get to faster than light travel. So this is a genuine question that's going to have to be asked. Is it ethical in order to condemn 20 future generations of your progeny to being born, living and dying on a fucking, in a tin box in the sky?

• 45:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Is it depressing that we're unlikely to live to see the interplanetary craziness? Like in some way, we're too late for the Roman Empire and we're too early for the like intergalactic empire?

• 46:05Speaker 02

  We just got dopamine hijacked from fucking TikTok.

• 46:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:10Anthony Pompliano?

  That sucks.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  What's the defining characteristic of this generation? And I really, really hope that it isn't in 200 years that future humans look back and see what we're doing now and go, can you believe what they were doing to attention and media and communication and interpersonal love and social cohesion with that technology? And they had these weird devices and they held them in their hands and they input it with their thumbs. Like, that is, it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. What would be even more scary is if we still haven't transcended that in 200 years' time, but something tells me that we will. Yeah, I think there's always a question of like, would it be better to have been born later?

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Given that progress seems to be, on average, linearly improving, would it be better to be born later? Maybe, but the chance of you existing is so infinitesimally small. Like, the only way that you can be here with your precise genetic makeup, which is what makes that consciousness that's inside of you, is if there was a complete unbroken lineage from the very first single-celled organism all the way through everything. And it couldn't have been a different sperm. It couldn't have been a different egg. It had to be your grandparents, it had to be at that time, at that time of the month, with that particular, every single one of them, all the way, this unbroken chain that leads up to you. So, yes, if you were to look forward and say, how unfortunate is it that I'm not there to see the future? That sucks.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  But the fact that you're here at all is something I think that you should take a lot of solace in.

• 47:40Anthony Pompliano?

  As we look forward, there's evolution. There is what we know today, psychological development, all of that. We are going to introduce technology. We already have to some degree. And I think about offense and defensive forces. So, offensive force could be, we're gonna put a brain computer interface. We're gonna insert it into your brain. You now have computational power. Oh, my ancestors were morons, they had phones. I just think and shit happens, right? Okay, that feels very much offensive in general. Yes, there are things around disease or disabilities that it'll impact, but mostly that's an offensive technology. Defensive changes is something where it kind of just happens, almost like more passive, maybe is a better word to describe.

• 48:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Text neck is future generations all going to be hunched over, you know, because we're all hunched over our phones.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:32Anthony Pompliano?

  And so, you know, our grandkids, grandkids, grandkids are just like, god damn it, you know, three, five, 20 generations ago, they literally had these phones, they were hunched over, and now look at me, I'm not born with a straight posture.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  You're suggesting that because we're using our phones so much, it would be advantageous to have long thumbs. So in like 100 generations, we're going to have long thumbed children.

• 48:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Your eyes are bigger, you're hunched over, you have longer, like, there's all these little things. And so some of it is like, maybe like offensive and explicit, it is external, right, kind of optimizations and trying to improve the human experience with technology from the outside. Some of it, though, is this passive stuff. And so as evolution and psychology, because you're also fucking with your brain, right, on TikTok or whatever all day, when we extrapolate this out, are humans going to be better humans or worse humans 200, 400, 500 years from now? Like, if we go back and we celebrateize, you know, I don't know, the ancient warriors

• 49:35Anthony Pompliano?

  or the Apache Indians, like, you know, they were these warlike figures, they had very simple lives, the Stoics had this clear way of thinking, like, sure, that wasn't 100% of the population, but there are these examples of people who I think we aspire to be like or we adhere to. 500 years from now, is the human experience going to be better or worse?

• 49:56Speaker 02

  I think the human experience will probably be better.

• 49:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  I think one of the advantages you have of evolution is it works so slowly that it's really fucking hard to mess up, really difficult to lock in bad evolutionary change into a species, especially like humans, that takes 25 years to go through a generation. In, you know, 10 generations, nothing's changed. And here's the interesting thing, if your environment is changing unbelievably quickly, any of the adaptations that you would have found during generation one that were advantageous would have been. The situation is so different during Generation 10 that that change is now no longer useful. So all of this just comes out in the wash. Does that make sense? That like, let's say that now it's thumbs. We want long thumb children. But in five generations' time, it's in your brain. Okay, well, the thumbs thing is now pointless.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  And so is the neck thing, and so is the posture thing. Now, what does change much more quickly, and I think what you're referring to is culture. It's like, what is it that we can uphold as values that we care about? What are the sort of things that we should praise in people? Should we have resiliency, grit, determination, community? Those are the sorts of things that we look back to and feel are missing, I think, from the world now. And yeah, the more that you outsource the rule-making, rule-breaking, rule-enforcement, support systems to any kind of superstructure, whether that be the bricks and mortars that are around us that are protecting us from the weather outside, whether that's the air con that's keeping us cool, whether that's the police that keep us safe,

• 51:30Speaker 02

  whether that's the internet that keeps us smart, right? Or Wikipedia that keeps us informed. Like, whatever it is, as soon as you start to outsource something, you'll atrophy whatever the muscle was, whether that be cultural, psychological, physical, that was previously supporting that system to work. You know what I mean?

• 51:48Anthony Pompliano?

  As we go down that path, one of the questions then becomes like, why are we here? And yes, there's this evolutionary arc. There's a psychological one as well. But the belief of why we're here seems to evolve as well. And if you go back, I don't know, use Ancient Rome as a good example. If you were to ask people, why are you here? Why are you human? What is it to mean to be human? We, I think in one way in society, we say, hey, that answer hasn't changed. Because if you look at the Stoics or whatever, be like, oh, for thousands of years, like, people knew this stuff, whatever. On the other hand, like, it feels like there's way more people who are more ambitious or bolder, right? And the way that I almost think of this is like, If you go back to ancient Rome, how many people thought that they could like conquer

• 52:33Anthony Pompliano?

  the earth? Maybe that was like the most ambitious thing. Like definitely some, they tried, right? And so that was happening. Today, if you said, how many people think that they can solve some incredibly hard problem that would have a material impact on a billion people or something? Like, there are many more people who think they can do that today than the amount of people who thought they could conquer the world, which was like a billion people back then. And so is that a changing of like what people think is possible? Is that a changing of what they think it means to be human? Is that just a changing of like arrogance level? Like, there's a lot of things that go into this. But if that keeps multiplying, eventually, you're going to have like one in 10 people who have some crazy ambitious, you know, thing. And that feels like something that doesn't really fit into the evolutionary bucket, doesn't really fit into psychology. Like, it's maybe culture, like, it's kind of everything wrapped up together. I don't know. What do you think?

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, leverage is a hell of a drug, right? The ability to leverage your inputs into greater, I mean, this is the industry that you come from, is the industry of leverage, right? Definitely, as humanities capabilities increase, what you end up with are greater and greater goals, goal sizes that people go for. So, for instance, I don't think anybody would have looked at the Romans and said that it was their job to protect species and ensure that the future of humanity was safe, right? Their wisdom was ahead of their technological capability. The problem that we have now is that our technological capability has overtaken our wisdom. We have the ability to release viruses and cause

• 54:00Speaker 02

  damage. Interesting point, it doesn't look like nuclear war would be an existential threat. It would kill tons of people. It would not be good. It would be a bad day. If all the nukes went off, bad day, but it wouldn't be the end of humanity. And that is a very good position to be in. I think that there is a good argument to be made that right now, the job of humanity is to ensure the future of humanity. Because we are at a stage, the precipice, Toby Ord calls it, this particular point in time where we have a very narrow path that we're walking along. And if we get through it, hopefully, technological capability and wisdom should be so great that any challenges we encounter should be fine for us to get past. But at the moment, we have an awful lot of risks and not so. So many solutions, you know, we just got nailed by an illness for two years.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  And we didn't have, we weren't able to do anything. We weren't able to make masks quickly enough. We weren't able to shut down travel. We didn't have the cultural institutions, the medical institutions. We didn't have the the wisdom, the communicate, any of that, right? None of it was sorted. And that was like nothing. That was absolutely nothing compared with what could be thrown at us, whether it be a super volcano, whether it be a solar flare from the sun that cuts out all of the electricity on the planet, whether it's an asteroid that's coming towards us or another bio weapon or a natural pandemic or, you know, a AGI, whatever, whatever it is, right? Tons and tons of things that could cause problems.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  At the moment, we have the ability to cause them, but not really the ability to protect ourselves from them. And that to me gives me a good bit of pause. That makes me think that a lot of our efforts should be placed on just getting through the next few hundred years. Like, some of the smartest people that I know don't think that humanity is going to make it past twenty one hundred. Like, some of the smartest people that I know think that-

• 55:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Why? What do they think is the biggest threat?

• 55:41Speaker 02

  Biggest threat's AGI, so artificial general intelligence.

• 55:46Anthony Pompliano?

  They think that in the next eighty or less years, basically, the computers will kill the humans.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  The problem that you have is, as soon as you have recursive self-improvement, a computer that can program itself to become a better computer, you get what's called an intelligence explosion. So the curve kind of goes like this, goes like this, and then it just, it just takes off.

• 56:04Anthony Pompliano?

  It's parabolic.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, precisely. In the space of a weekend, even if all you had was the same processing power as the brain, but it was running on the components of a computer, which is significantly quicker, the components of a computer run at the speed of light. And I think that our brain moved way, way, way slower in terms of how it communicates. You would come back after a weekend and had you have left it at human brain at the start, it would have done the equivalent of four million years of eight PhDs working full time over a weekend. So you come back and you you are now by far the dumbest thing in the room, right? So if you roll the clock forward from there, you have this potential where a- Algorithm, a computer system, is now by far the smartest thing.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  It is able to outsmart you and all of your efforts to turn it off. If it has any objectives, it's going to make sure that in order to achieve the objective, it can't be turned off. You are someone that could turn it off. You need to go away. Well, hang on, so could the guy next to you, so could that technician, so he needs to go away. And you end up with a runaway problem that is very difficult to stop.

• 57:06Anthony Pompliano?

  So let's say that this intelligence explosion happens. How do you go from threat identification to human dead? Is that clear yet?

• 57:16Speaker 02

  It could happen in a million different ways, I think. There's an interesting thought experiment called the Paperclip Maximizer by Nick Bostrom. So a company that makes paperclips wants to improve the efficiency of its paperclip production. It decides that it's going to create a algorithm that can do that. And by and load, it ends up having this superstar coder that creates a super intelligent algorithm to make paperclips. Now, this super intelligent algorithm decides that in order for it to fulfill its one objective, which is make as many paperclips as possible. That's all it's given, single function, right? Well, it realizes that all of the humans around it could turn it off. And if it was turned off, then it wouldn't make as many paperclips.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  So it decides to subdue them somehow, might kill them, might do something else. But then it realizes that it needs to be able to be powered for all of time in order to be able to do this. So it then takes over the entire power grid. Then it realizes that the humans might wage a war on it in order to stop it. So it just kills all of the humans. But then what it realizes is that all of the matter that the humans were made of would be better as paperclips. Because if the matter that the humans were, their dead decaying bodies in the, in the earth, well, okay, so I'll take their matter and I'll turn that into paperclips. And the same goes for the earth and the sun and the solar system and the rest of the galaxy and the universe. And you end up with an entire universe of paperclips, right? From one single function. And it's kind of a ridiculous example, but it shows the problem when you have what's called misalignment.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  So when the objective that you give a very powerful machine is not aligned with actually what you wanted it to do, you end up with some very strange outcomes when you scale it up to super intelligent, basically godlike creature, right?

• 59:01Speaker 02

  How it would identify stuff, basically, once you get to the stage of it being super intelligent, it's game over. Like, you can't, there's no putting it back in the bottle. And this is the AI safety world and alignment theory is looking particularly at trying to get out ahead of this problem. It wants there to be no AGIs, no super intelligent AGIs, up until this alignment problem's been fixed, because you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube once it's happened.

• 59:30Anthony Pompliano?

  This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. The holiday season is here, so give the never-ending gift of deeper sleep. About two years ago, I started to sleep on the Eight Sleep, and I sleep on it every single night. It quite literally changed my life. I get deeper and better sleep. But don't just listen to me. Clinical data shows that Eight Sleep users experience up to 34% more deep sleep. It is not a holiday miracle, even though it sounds like one. If better sleep is on your wish list, look no further than the new Pod 3. You can go to eightsleep.com/pomp for exclusive holiday savings and ring in the most wonderful time of the year. Eight Sleep currently ships with the US, Canada, the UK, and select countries in the EU and Australia. Go check them out, eightsleep.com/pomp today.

• 1:00:12Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:00:56Anthony Pompliano?

  your crypto data and research needs. With Messari Pro, you gain access to exclusive, industry-leading, long-form, daily research reports, daily crypto news, advanced asset screeners, and curated sets of charts and protocol metrics. You can try Messari Pro today. And listeners of this podcast will get 25% off the Messori Pro membership by visiting www.messari.io/pro and entering promo code POMP. Again, that's messari.io/pro and use promo code POMP. Navigate the market with confidence with Messori Pro. How much is the problem, engineers trying to build something shiny and cool, but not understanding the negative side effects versus actual malice? Like, is it ignorance?

• 1:01:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Or is it like some evil coder is sitting there and like, I'm gonna build the superintelligence to take over the world, you know, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha?

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  I think very much the first one, because the incentives generally in the market would support that. Like, the company that makes the first superintelligent AGI algorithm is the world's first gazillionaire, right? They own everything. They can make a better Amazon than Amazon. They can make a better Jeff Bezos than Bezos, right? They can do everything that anybody can do better than they can do it basically instantly. And it means that anybody else that then comes in, because you have that parabolic line, anybody that's further down the curve is so far behind that it basically doesn't matter, right? The recursive self-improvement means that gains accrue so quickly that anybody that starts even three weeks later is way behind,

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  and it basically doesn't matter. So I think that well-meaning, inquisitive, curious, competent coders are the most likely potential demise of all of civilization. And that's a big concern.

• 1:02:47Anthony Pompliano?

  How do we wrap our arms around them and say, help us? You know, help build a better world, not help build a world that you accidentally ruin? Is there certain things that you think are like crucial to solve that problem? Or is it, no, the people who are working on the AI safety stuff, they just gotta get, you know, kind of get it together and solve the alignment problem? And then we won't even have to really deal with the, with the engineers, because ultimately, they'll just be given a framework and, and it's kind of like, bring the solution to the masses? Or do we try to get the masses to create the solution?

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  They'll work inside of, hopefully, an existing Protective paradigm. So I don't know whether you know the way that tabletop genetic synthesizers work. So it's kind of like.

• 1:03:29Anthony Pompliano?

  That was Spanish to me.

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  Kind of like a, kind of like a 3D printer that does, it can create genetic like material.

• 1:03:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  So if you want it to sequence particular DNA, it'll do it for you. And kind of like a 3D printer, you plug in, I want it to make a bouncy ball or whatever, and then it creates a ball over time. The way that all of these current desktop printers work are that they go up to the cloud in order to get whatever sequence it is that you want. And there are levels of security. So there's like a green and amber and a red. The green, anybody can print it, doesn't matter, no one's concerned. The amber, you need to get clearance and the red, it just won't print. The reason for that is that the stuff that's in red is shit like smallpox and anthrax and stuff. So you don't, and then the SWAT team comes in and it alerts everybody and like bad stuff happens. What they've done is they've realized there is technology that has outstripped safety

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  and they need to constrain the potential externalities of this happening and they do that in a smart way. What would be great would be to somehow have a similar sort of system in place for coding. Now, it's going to be very different and difficult because coding is so distributed, it's so atomized, like one person could do it. It's probably going to be someone like Google Deep Mind, I think, that comes up with this. But what would be great would be if all of the people that are working on super intelligent AGIs had AI safety as their first priority. Like, the problem is that the incentives don't necessarily align. If you decide to be 5% more safe than me and I just roll the dice and I get there before you, I win.

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  And what you get here is just an ever decreasing level of safety down to no safety again. And then people just run as fast as they can.

• 1:05:14Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like deregulation, basically. Everyone wants a deregulated market so that then it's free competition, which sounds great. The only thing is that there's trade offs. OpenAI is, I think, a $20 billion company now. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's true.

• 1:05:30Anthony Pompliano?

  And it feels like they just scratched the surface. So to your point about like whoever gets their first wins, but they don't just win like a market, they like win the world. To have built a company that pretty much just built like developer tools, right? I mean, again, I'm highly generalizing and in some way dumbing down what they do, but they've built a bunch of libraries and models that people can go and they could use and they can pay for and already I think it's had this explosion of interest and developers running wild with it or whatever. But like this is a $20 billion company. It's not easy to build a $20 billion company. And it kind of feels like they're just, again, just starting. And so is it going to be thousands of companies all worth billions of dollars? Or is it going to be, you know, kind of the centralized, Amazon has 50% of e-commerce in America?

• 1:06:15Anthony Pompliano?

  And so we're going to have one massive AI company that kind of dominates. And like, you kind of can see both potentially playing out. I don't know if really the dominant one is the better world. Like you kind of want it to be as distributed as possible, but again, you need the safety. So like it has this like trade off. I don't know.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  One of the problems that you have if it's so distributed is that if all of these individual actors all have the ability to do godlike stuff, you have to try and regulate all of them. If you just have one, all of the resources, all of the scrutiny, everything goes on to that one. Now, yeah, typically monopolies and even oligopolies aren't fantastic for the market because you get price fixing and you like reduce like customer experience and so forth. But in this, I don't think you have a choice. Like the first company that does this is the only one. That's it. There is only one winner when it comes to this. You may end up with on route to that, a bunch of companies that are all 90% of

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  the way to AGI, let's say, and they're all just kind of battling around for whatever it might be to just push it over the edge. But when the first one goes, I'm pretty sure that's just game over.

• 1:07:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Game over.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Because of that recursive thing in that parabolic line.

• 1:07:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Last thing I want to talk about, the podcast, you've talked to many, many people, I think over 500 people now. And some of them are very different types of people. What is like maybe one or two common themes that you see through all of these different conversations? Right? You talk to everyone from evolutionary psychologist to Jocko to Jordan Peterson. Like it really is pretty diverse.

• 1:07:58Anthony Pompliano?

  What are the takeaways from so many conversations with just fellow humans?

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  Most of the people that I've spoken to that are successful are curious. That's probably the single most common trend that I see. They're led forward by a desire to find out about the world. And that seems to be a very robust way to motivate yourself to go forward. I think you can work out whether you're having a good life, because if you wake up in the morning and you're gassed about your day, if you're excited when you wake up, things are probably going well. And these are the people that wake up and they're excited about what they get to learn. That seems to be a really, really good marker. And that's something that I see between, between most of the people that I speak to. You know, this basic stuff like conscientiousness, hard work, motivation, sticking to promises that they made to themselves.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  But maybe one other thing is around success and happiness. And this isn't for everybody, but certainly in the world of crypto and trading and business and stuff like that, I think this would probably be a nice insight. A lot of the time, what people do when they try and achieve happiness through success is that they sacrifice the thing that they want for the thing that's supposed to get it.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  They sacrifice happiness in order to get success because success is supposed to make them happy.

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  You sacrifice the thing that you want for the thing that's supposed to get it. And the older that the guests are that I speak to, accrued a little bit more wisdom. And the more comfortable and the less that they seem like they have to prove, the happier they seem to be. And I think that a big part of that is this success and happiness balance that's going on. I try and remind myself of that a lot. If I put out an episode that I thought was amazing and it doesn't do very well, or I get criticized online, or, you know, I start to have self doubt about my performance or what it is that I'm doing or whatever. I really try to just remind myself like, look, you're happy with what you're doing. The success is a byproduct of that, but it's not the determinant of it.

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  Like, the goal that you're working toward here is for you to be happy with what you do.

• 1:10:15Speaker 02

  I think that if you are not the sort of person who

• 1:10:22Speaker 02

  has validation internally, no amount of external validation is going to fix that. Like, if you tell people what you think they want to hear, which is something I did for a long time, right? I was this club promoter, standing in the front door of nightclubs and running this great company with my business partner that I absolutely adore. But I was playing a little bit of a role in this world because you need to. Like, people don't want to hear a conversation about whether fucking human DNA can survive spaceflight. They're on the front door of a nightclub, right? They want to hear, they want to see you smile, they want to hear how many hot girls are inside, they want a free drinks voucher and a VIP band, and they want you to fuck off, right? So I became the person that I needed to for the job that I did.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  But there's not really any amount of success or number of friends like that, or number of acquaintances or people that know you that will make you feel fulfilled, in my experience. And I'm, I feel really thankful that I kind of got a taste of what happens if you try and climb up a very high ladder that's up against the wrong wall, super young. Because coming out of that, it's reminded me, okay, like, it can be fun, but ultimately is not as fulfilling as trying to do something that genuinely gives you a sense of self-worth. And all of the validation in the world, dude, I did, I did two reality TV shows, ran the biggest events company pretty much in the north of the UK for a decade and a half.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  Met a million people, stood on the front door of nightclubs and still had something that was missing. But I was successful with all of the metrics that like society should tell a young guy that he was successful on. Like, status and accolade and girls and like money and youth, all of this together.

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  And it was like, well, I don't know, this kind of, is this all it is? Is this really all it is? Is there nothing else to this? And um. Yeah, no amount of external validation is going to give you internally what it is that you need. And if you compromise yourself, even if you don't think that you're noticing each little white lie that you tell, each time you compromise what you believe to tell the person that you're speaking with, what you think they want to hear that will reflectively make you look good. Every time that you do that, something is keeping note. And the situation that I managed to get myself to about six years ago, just before I started the show, was like, I didn't know my own opinion. I didn't know anything, because what I'd done was I'd played the role that I thought people wanted me to be for a very long time.

• 1:12:47Speaker 02

  And when it comes to all of the guests that I've had, and all of the people that I've spoken to, the ones that seem the most fulfilled and the most happy are the ones that are no longer concerned about playing that role. They do what they want to do. They understand who they are and why they're here, and what it is that they're trying to achieve. They have boundaries that they won't cross. They have values that they're not going to compromise on. And that's it. That's the game.

• 1:13:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Atul Gawande wrote a book, Being Mortal. And in it, the idea of happiness is basically expectations minus reality, right? And this is essentially what you're highlighting here of just like, if you think that you have to have the perfect life to be happy, reality is that no one has a perfect life. And so like, you're basically persistently going to be unhappy. If you think that you need nothing to be happy, reality is better than that. And so like, you will be persistently happy. But also, he talks about in somewhat of like, an ode to like, the Stoics and those types of individuals, old people. Not like, hey, I'm later in my career, like 85, 95 year olds are some of the happiest people

• 1:13:50Anthony Pompliano?

  in the world, because they no longer are focused on the past, and they no longer are focused on the future. They're just happy to be there in that moment. And so, his view of the world is like, by spending so much time with people who don't have a lot of time, it is clarifying how to spend your life and be happy. Because what you learn is that like, all the bullshit disappears. And you're just enjoying the moment. And so like, whether you're a doctor who's used to dealing with people in geriatrics and kind of end of life, and like, all of these like, very complex things that society doesn't like to think about, or you're the Stoics who like, now are being, you know, put on this pedestal. It all comes down to the same thing. It's like here and now, not having high

• 1:14:33Anthony Pompliano?

  expectations, but living a fulfilled life. And like you can get to that happiness. But to your point, the things that you think may make you happy, aren't really that smart to pursue if you're going to have to sacrifice happiness to get them.

• 1:14:46Speaker 02

  Yes. Well, that's the problem because one of the instincts that a lot of the people listening, like type A, go get it people that probably listen to this show, will feel when you say have lower expectations is, well, no, fuck you. I want to be, I want to be a winner. Like, I want to be a big hitter. And you go, I'm not going to have lower expectations because that's going to lower my performance. Like, let's fucking face facts, man. A big chunk of the people listening to this podcast, and me, and you, have achieved success because of a fear of insufficiency.

• 1:15:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Of course.

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  Because we are terrified of not being wanted or needed by the world. And what we're doing is we're filling that void with success, hoping that that is somehow going to make us feel whole again. Right? If you get rid of the void, a lot of us are scared that you're going to get rid of the drive. Like, that's the thing that made me into the killer that I am. Right? Whether it's time, or whether it's success, if you sacrifice the thing that you want, happiness, for the thing which you're supposed to get it, success or time, right? People make themselves miserable by spending their time in order to be able to do something that can finally make themselves happy. It's like, if you fucking made an equation out of that, and you just removed time from both sides of it, you're left with

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  happiness in the middle. Right? Like, I, I think that it is a very difficult balance in order to be a high achieving but well balanced person. And this is one of the reasons why, as people get older, they're happy with what they've achieved, which allows them to, to drop that away. Desire is a contract you make with yourself to be unhappy until you get what you want. Right? That's Naval. I think that he is a particularly interesting example, because he's someone that's a very high achiever, but also seems to have found a good amount of peace with what it is that he does. And I think that that's the goal that you try and get towards, like, not from a place of insufficiency, not from a place of lack, just that life is more interesting if I achieve well, and if I fulfill my capabilities. So that's why I'm going to perform. And a byproduct of that will be happiness, hopefully.

• 1:16:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Such a no brainer. Where can we send people to find the podcast and maybe give them a little bit of a understanding of the types of guests that you have and kind of what the focus of the conversations are?

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Modern Wisdom, it's on Spotify and Apple Podcasts as Modern Wisdom and then Chris Williamson on YouTube. Episodes that I think your guys would like, Andrew Huberman, I had him on, we filmed the whole thing in 6K in Austin, it's beautiful. That was a really, really great episode, some great science-based tools for productivity, for morning cycles and getting to bed and supplementation and training. Dr. Sarah Hill, that was the lady that did the hormonal birth control thing, she just blew my face off, she was fantastic. And then I did a really great episode with Jordan Peterson at the start of this year. So there's three, Huberman, Sarah Hill, and Jordan Peterson. And if you just put Chris Williamson, Andrew Huberman in or whatever, or Modern Wisdom on Spotify, it'll come up. And I appreciate you, man. I've been looking forward to speaking to you for ages. It's fucking dope to finally get to meet you. Thank you for having me.

• 1:17:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I've really enjoyed it and will definitely do it again in the future. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to transition into a brand new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to thecryptoacademy.io. My team and I have been working with the top HR teams in the industry to develop an intensive three-week training program with over 50 live events. We teach you exactly what you need to know to break into the industry, including live interview prep and resume review. Our students have been hired at over 75 of the world's best Bitcoin and crypto companies. Go to thecryptoacademy.io to learn more. Again, that's thecryptoacademy.io. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure

• 1:18:16Anthony Pompliano?

  you share it with your friends and I'll see you all for the next episode.