#ICYMI - The Science of Curling, with Olympians Brad Gushue and Nina Roth

Slide down the ice with Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice as they investigate the surprising science of curling. Featuring author and curler Dean Gemmell, physicist John Eric Goff, 2018 Olympic curler Nina Roth, and 2006 gold medalist Brad Gushue. (Warning: Adult Language.) NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/science-curling-olympians-brad-gushue-nina-roth/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 0:10Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 0:11Gary O'Reilly?

  This is Playing with Science. Today, we are exploring the odd yet fun sport of curling, or as we have decided to call it here, science friction.

• 0:21Chuck Nice?

  Ah, yes.

• 0:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Just since it's a cool, cool sport.

• 0:25Chuck Nice?

  Cool, cool sport. And joining us to break down the physics of curling is our very own professor of physics at Lynchburgs College, Virginia, and author of Gold Medal Physics, Professor Eric Goff.

• 0:40Gary O'Reilly?

  Yay!

• 0:41Chuck Nice?

  Which, uh, Professor?

• 0:42Speaker 02

  Hey Chuck and Gary, how are you all doing?

• 0:44Gary O'Reilly?

  We're good.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  I'm doing great here.

• 0:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, you're good. Great to have you. So, let's just recap your fields of expertise, because we've got an hour.

• 0:50Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 0:51Gary O'Reilly?

  My god, is there anything? Soccer, cycling, Krav Maga, and you are a black belt karate, so any upstart student who's thinking of joining the good professor's classes, don't mess about.

• 1:02Chuck Nice?

  So, um... So, we definitely want to get into the physics of this sport that is so hypnotic. I mean, uh, you're a fan of curling, right?

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Yes, I, I never, I've never played it. Uh, I've never even seen a curling, uh, venue anywhere where I've ever lived, but some friends from Canada were visiting one time and got me kinda hooked during the Olympics. And, uh, I've been watching the last few Olympics, uh, where it's been in there, and it's just, it's fascinating to watch.

• 1:33Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 1:34Gary O'Reilly?

  So, apart from the strategy of placing guards outside the house, which it sounds rather sort of medieval, you know, you've got to place guards outside the castle, and you're doing this, and you're doing that, there's a lot of sweeping, you've got the ice and the surface of the ice, the rotation of the rock or the stone, whatever way you're gonna call it yourself. So, from the physics point of view, how can you deconstruct the sport and explain what's going on?

• 1:59Speaker 02

  So this is not, the, the ice is not like in a hockey rink or a skating rink. This is not smooth ice. Uh, they try to, they try to make it as level as they possibly can. And then you'll have a person will come out with one of these little water squirters. And it has to be done very precisely and you will get some very purified water. Put on the surface of the ice and it will freeze into these little pebble shapes. And then a machine will come out and cleave and cut off the tops of the, the domes on those little pebbles. And it'll leave a pebble, uh, shaped surface where you could, it actually lowers the friction.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  If you tried to slide one of these curling rocks on a, say a ice skating or a, a hockey rink, it would not go nearly as far.

• 2:48Chuck Nice?

  Really? So, okay.

• 2:50Gary O'Reilly?

  So the, the surface is aiding the rotation of the stone itself?

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I'm talking about just even straight line motion. Uh, the, there'll be added friction on a much smoother and flatter, uh, piece of ice than there will be on this, uh, petted, pebbled for surface that you have in a, in a curling rink.

• 3:11Chuck Nice?

  That's very interesting. That seems counterintuitive. You would think that like, if you think about cobblestone streets, right? You throw something like anything on a flat surface or anything that has a flat bottom down a cobblestone street. It's not going to go as far because of the, the bumpiness.

• 3:27Gary O'Reilly?

  Have no control over it.

• 3:28Chuck Nice?

  Right, but this, you're saying that this, this kind of these little, uh, shaved pebbles or this shaved pebble surface actually causes that stone, um, to go even further. And now does the stone have to be a certain weight for that to happen? Because I know it's like 42 pounds is what, it's like a 42 pound granite rock that they're using. Um, does the weight of the stone help that process along?

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Um, not so much with the weight, but I want you to keep in mind the stone bottom is not flat. Uh, if you've ever seen like an earthenware bowl, uh, you have kind of an annulus shaped, you know, a circular shaped, uh, piece of the granite that's going to be touching the surface of the ice. This is not flat.

• 4:13Chuck Nice?

  Oh.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Um, if it was flat, it would even, it would have even more friction. So the, the actual curling, the spinning of the stone is happening on this, uh, circle shaped piece of contact with the ice. It's not, you know, completely flat like a, you know, circular cross section on there.

• 4:29Chuck Nice?

  Ah, okay. That's very cool. Um.

• 4:32Gary O'Reilly?

  What sort of speeds do we achieve, uh, when they start to launch these stones down the ice?

• 4:39Speaker 02

  So they're, they're thrown pretty slow. I mean, you're, you're looking at something only going about a few meters per second, maybe six or seven miles an hour, uh, at most. So they're released with a rotation. Maybe you turn one to four times on the way down. But the point is, is that the, uh, stone itself is released very gently from, you know, right behind the hog line.

• 5:03Chuck Nice?

  Hmm. And why do they scream so much?

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Why do they scream so much?

• 5:08Chuck Nice?

  There's a lot, there seems to be a lot of yelling going on there.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  So let's, let's take it from, from start to finish. You got the, you have four players on a team. They're each going to throw two of these stones and you got four on the other team. So you're looking at 16 stones are going to be eventually thrown down toward the house, which is the big bullseye where you want to get, you know, as many stones close to the button as possible.

• 5:29Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  So you get the first person that's going to come down there, uh, the first, you know, person is basically looking at kind of an empty house. So that, that person's going to be doing what's called a draw shot and they're trying to place the stone somewhere in that, uh, bullseye area in that house. So the person's going to elevate a little bit up at, into this, uh, what's called the hack. And these are kind of like, um, you know, sprinting starting gate where you've got the, the foot protector, you know, back there to keep you from slipping.

• 6:00Chuck Nice?

  Like starting blocks.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you, you raise up your body, you got the, the rock on the, on the ice and then you're going to start sliding with it. So as you raise your body and push down, when you come out of the hack, you're going to create a little bit of momentum and get a little force from that hack, like the starting block. And then you start pushing the stone down. And you've been given a target, typically the best player, the skip, is down on the other side with a broom held down as a target. So you've kind of lined up with that target. You got the stone rolling and you're either going to give it a very slight clockwise or a very slight counterclockwise turn, depending on what's necessary. And the lead, the first person who's going to go, is going to try to draw the, you know,

• 6:46Speaker 02

  the shot in there. Now, the two with the brooms, they're going to be given instructions from the skip and even from the person who's released the curling stone. They're going to be screaming at them, letting them know, is this thing going too fast? Is it heavy, as they call it? Is it going too slow or light? Does it need to curl more or less? And the thing is, if they start sweeping, that's actually going to reduce the amount of curl, but it's going to make it go faster. So the idea is, if they need to get the curling stone to move a little bit quicker, get into the house, they need to sweep furiously. If it looks like it's already going too fast, they're not going to sweep it.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Now, as the sweeping takes place, you're looking at an ice rink that's about five degrees below Celsius, which is something like 23 degrees Fahrenheit. And if you start sweeping vigorously, you start getting that close to the melting point. And even if you don't melt the ice, you warm it. And by warming it, you kind of soften it slightly, which is actually going to reduce the friction, which is why it can go a little bit faster. And they don't have to sweep it very much, because I told you, you only have kind of a bowl ring shape contact with the ice. So they're just doing these little short sweeps, and they got to be careful not to touch the stone. And then the stone, of course, can land down in there.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Then the other team goes and then the seconds come up. And they might do kind of a what's called a guard shot. Where they they're gonna hit the rock and they're gonna lay it up a little short and try to block the house for the other team to come up. Then the thirds come up and they hit it stronger and they try to take out the stones and then you get the skip coming up last. Who's gonna try to get the the ma- the big point in the score there with the last shot.

• 8:39Chuck Nice?

  So the idea is to-

• 8:41Gary O'Reilly?

  There's something called the hammer.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the last shot.

• 8:43Chuck Nice?

  That's the last shot.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Sixteenth one, yeah.

• 8:45Chuck Nice?

  So the the last shot is really kind of the most important because what you wanna do is have your last shot kind of be in that bullseye or closest to that bullseye, that pin area, because then you win, right?

• 8:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, you the idea is you get in the whoever gets closer to the button is gonna be the winner for that particular end, as they call it.

• 9:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, but they have that guy who does like the ten pin bowling. Just comes in and just smashes everything out of the house and sees if that gamble pays off. So there's got to be physics involved in that kind of thing, because you've got that Newton's laws in place because it deflects, it comes back and or it sort of hits and bumps and so what's happening with that? How do we how do we explain that sort of science?

• 9:28Speaker 02

  So if you've ever done billiards or uh visited your grandma and done some shuffleboard or something like that.

• 9:35Chuck Nice?

  Uh, well, we we just we just had Dean Gimel on, please don't call it shuffleboard.

• 9:39Gary O'Reilly?

  Because the the the the reply doesn't work so well.

• 9:43Chuck Nice?

  He'll have a he'll have a big one finger salute for you if you call it shuffleboard.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:47Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, but that anyway, the examples-

• 9:49Chuck Nice?

  Go ahead.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  That that's what my grandma in Florida calls it, so that's what I was calling it.

• 9:54Gary O'Reilly?

  Good.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  But anyway, you you got the same kind of trajectories that you're gonna have to play. And sometimes uh there's what's called a drag effect. You get a couple of the stones that can actually start sticking together and what'll happen there is that you'll get a little bit of the ice will get up there and kind of melt on the collision surface. And once a couple of stones will stick together, the ice will refreeze. And they'll be stuck and you could actually hit one, break apart the other one on the back and send it off in kind of a crazy angle. Uh, it's it's some really interesting physics with it. It's called a drag effect that doesn't anything to do with, you know, air drag.

• 10:29Chuck Nice?

  Air drag.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 10:30Chuck Nice?

  Right. Wow, that is so so there really is when they call it chess on ice.

• 10:35Gary O'Reilly?

  There's a lot more going on.

• 10:36Chuck Nice?

  Lot more going on than uh what is apparent to the eye during this competition.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  That's right, and you know, if you could get even more than one of your stones or you know, the rocks closer to the button, then you've got even more points you could score in a given end. You could score for however many the rocks that you get close to that center of the bullseye compared to your team, the team you're playing against.

• 10:59Chuck Nice?

  That's cool. Do you know anything about the shoes? Because, one, aside from them being so incredibly fashionable, is there, is there anything special about these, what look to be orthopedic shoes, but clearly they have special bottoms on them to, to do something while they're sliding, while they're sweeping? Do you know anything about the footwear?

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Well, I know when you go to a, I know in Canada, my colleagues would tell me, when you go into one of the rinks and you want to try this for the first time, you can rent one of these covers that you put over just a normal tennis shoe.

• 11:39Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  And it's got a very, you know, smooth, slightly roughened surface, but it's fairly smooth, the slip on the ice. And you put one on one foot. So if I was going to be right-handed and I was going to try releasing the curling stone, I would put it on my left foot. And there's even a technique for how you actually get onto the ice. You know, you got a shoe that's got a little bit more grip, that you want to support yourself, and then you put your slippery foot down. You've also got a broom to give you kind of this added point of contact. And when you slide on that front foot, that, that shoe covering is what's going to enable you to slide. Now, when you're brooming it, you don't want to be sliding

• 12:22Speaker 02

  so much. You want to have a little bit more grip with those shoes.

• 12:25Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 12:26Gary O'Reilly?

  So when you curl, Chuck, you've got to get on the ice on the good foot.

• 12:29Chuck Nice?

  Ow!

• 12:30Gary O'Reilly?

  There you go.

• 12:30Chuck Nice?

  Hey!

• 12:31Gary O'Reilly?

  Ow!

• 12:31Chuck Nice?

  Ow! Good foot! Ha! Okay.

• 12:34Gary O'Reilly?

  All right.

• 12:35Chuck Nice?

  Oh, man.

• 12:35Gary O'Reilly?

  That's our musical incident.

• 12:36Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that's our musical, right.

• 12:39Chuck Nice?

  Hey Eric, man, thanks so much for the great, great physics behind curling. I mean, I think as the Olympics, it's becoming probably one of the most popular Olympic sports.

• 12:49Gary O'Reilly?

  No, it's not something that's on your radar, then once you get into it, it's like, I like this.

• 12:54Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 12:55Gary O'Reilly?

  This is cool. This is really cool.

• 12:57Chuck Nice?

  It's like, once you start watching, you just can't stop.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  So I gotta give you a real demo real quick.

• 13:02Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  You gotta try this. And the idea came to me at lunch today with a colleague, because he was asking me what we were gonna talk about. And I was trying to explain the actual curling, why this thing curls. It can curl up to, you know, one to three feet or something during this 125 foot trek down the ice. And if you're curling, if you've got a glass, I'm showing you a glass here. You turn it upside down.

• 13:28Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  And the bottom has a shape here that's gonna be kinda like the surface of the curling stone. It's gonna touch the ice.

• 13:36Chuck Nice?

  Yep.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Now, slide this on a table and give it a rotation and see if you can predict which way it's gonna bend when it slides across the table. And when I did this, it was lucky, it was right before the waiter brought us water to fill it. And he wondered what I was doing with his glass, but I pushed this thing across the table and my colleague guesses the wrong direction. So if you're looking down on the glass and it's spinning, say, counterclockwise, he thought it would go to my left. And it actually goes to the right. And the reason is, the front surface of the glass is slightly pushed down more than the back. And if you're pushing on the table in one direction, the table's gotta push on the other. So the push is easily explained. It goes in the opposite direction, you might think.

• 14:20Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  That, that, that type of physics is easy. We have not reached a consensus on why a curling rock curls. There are a couple of competing theories that are out there, whether you're actually scratching the pebbles and that's altering the friction. Or whether you have kind of an asymmetric melting that takes place, based on the fact that the sides of the stone are moving at different speeds. So it actually, if you rotate it counterclockwise from above, it'll go to the left. And clockwise from above, it'll go to the right. That's opposite what'll happen if you just slide this rotating glass across your table.

• 14:55Chuck Nice?

  That's fascinating.

• 14:56Gary O'Reilly?

  A great curling mystery.

• 14:57Chuck Nice?

  A great curling mystery and, and still yet to be solved. Well, you know, I'm pretty sure. It's an open question. That's right. I'm telling you this much, if you keep working on it, I'm sure you're going to come up with an answer.

• 15:08Gary O'Reilly?

  And if, if you're a young member of the household, listening to the good professor and think, that's a great idea. I'll go and get the glasses. Please ask the homeowner's permission first.

• 15:18Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 15:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Before you start sending those glasses across the table and off the end.

• 15:22Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, let me just tell you what Gary really means. Don't try this at home. All right, kids? No.

• 15:26Gary O'Reilly?

  Nicely put. Thank you, Professor. Always a pleasure to have you on Playing with Science. And when we're back, back with a champion.

• 15:34Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 15:34Gary O'Reilly?

  Just any champion.

• 15:35Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 15:35Gary O'Reilly?

  But a former Olympic gold medalist. Winning curler from Team Canada, Brad Gushue will be our guest. So stick around. We'll be back shortly.

• 15:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 15:52Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Dais.

• 15:53Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Playing with Science. And today, as you well know, we're exploring the fascinating world of curling. Basic physics broken down and then a little bit more from the professor Eric Goff, which I think took us all to school. But let's find out what it's like to be at the very top of your game. Not just a former Olympic gold medalist.

• 16:16Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 16:17Gary O'Reilly?

  But reigning world champion from Team Canada, Brad Gushu.

• 16:22Speaker 03

  Hey Brad.

• 16:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Hey Brad. What first got you into curling? Cause it's, it's not the big sport that you always imagine you would gravitate towards. But there's obviously a very good reason why you did.

• 16:34Speaker 03

  Well, in, in Canada, it's, it's a huge sport. Next to hockey, it's the biggest sport. It's on TV all the time. But for me, what really drew me to the game was the strategy part. And you outthink your opponent. And, um, you know, in elementary school, I used to play chess and I used to love that. And, and really curling is chess on ice. And, and if you play just as good as your opponent, but you outthink him and outmaneuver him, you can win the game. And, and I love that aspect as long as, as well as the physicality of it. Um, the sweeping part, the touch and the feel, the hand eye coordination. And then you throw in that mental part of it. I, I think is, uh, is really what drew me to the game.

• 17:08Chuck Nice?

  So when you say it's chess on ice, uh, you know, in chess, uh, there are several different opening moves. Um, from a strategy standpoint, do you have the same thing in curling?

• 17:18Speaker 03

  Absolutely. It really depends on the score in the end. At our level, certainly, everybody's kind of aware of those first few moves. And the difference with curling, the chess is there's so many variables and the rock can finish in so many different spots that there's almost an infinite number of different possibilities. And you always get in situations that you've never faced before. But that's where your creativity and the ability to think through and think a couple of shots ahead. If we do this perfect and then they do this perfect, then we're going to be in this situation. And that's what I like about it. I think I have the ability to maybe look ahead. More shots than my opponents. Obviously, there's others that are very good at it. But most teams that we play, I feel like we have an advantage from a strategic standpoint.

• 18:02Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so for those of you that do have access to the visuals here, Team Gushu, and you're the leader, you're the skip.

• 18:09Speaker 03

  I'm the skip.

• 18:09Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, so this in-game management seems to be the be-all and end-all of curling. That you're able to not just know that you can execute technically the shots you need to, but what shots are going to be coming next, what shots your opponent's going to be able to do, the technical ability of your opponent's. And then it just goes from there and there and there. It's, as you say, it does seem a lot jerk-like chess on us.

• 18:36Chuck Nice?

  It is a lot like chess.

• 18:37Gary O'Reilly?

  I've got to stick this round thing with a handle, looks like, I don't know what it looks like, it's going down there.

• 18:41Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 18:42Gary O'Reilly?

  And that's just the beginning.

• 18:45Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 18:45Gary O'Reilly?

  The very beginning.

• 18:46Chuck Nice?

  So let me ask you this. If you're facing a guy or another team, and on that team is a player who is known for being able to take the stone and just put it on the button. Like, that's his forte. Like, this guy, every time he comes up, boom, he could put that stone right on the button. What does that do to you in terms of your strategy?

• 19:15Speaker 03

  It changes a lot because we can really manipulate the game in such a way that we can force that player to maybe play more hits and maybe get away from those feel shots. And the same sort of thing, we have two different turns or two different rotations on the rock. Uh huh. Obviously clockwise and counterclockwise. And a lot of players have a preference in which turn that they throw and, you know, from an analytical standpoint, excuse me, they actually, percentage wise, are much better with one turn than the other. So before we go into a game against some of those teams, we'll analyze that and really try and force them to play the turn or the rotation that they're weaker at. Um, so as a skip, there's, there's so many different levels and so many different things you could do to exploit your opponents and, and, and really get at their weakness.

• 19:58Speaker 03

  Uh, but really at our level, I, we're, you know, we're the number one ranked team in the world. If we play our game and we play as good as we can, then we really don't have to, to go down those routes of exploiting those weaknesses. But it is another tool that we have in the toolbox. If, if our game is a little bit off, we can try and, and get the other team to play probably a little bit below where they usually play.

• 20:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay. Wow. We said you were Olympic gold medalist back in 2006.

• 20:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:26Gary O'Reilly?

  But let's be fair, you are reigning world champion, aren't you?

• 20:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 20:29Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah. Right, right now, you're, right now, you're the world champ, right? So right now, you're sitting there, all top of the pile. Do you ever get to the position where you don't have to worry about your opponents because your team's game is so strong, you just go out and play your game, dominate?

• 20:46Speaker 03

  Curling, we have so many top teams here in Canada that for us, we went from 2006, when we won the Olympics, to 2017, when we won the Worlds. And really, we won events in between, but we didn't win one of the big championships, be it the World Championships or the Olympics. So there's a lot of really good teams and, and as I said, there's so many variables to, to winning that. Sometimes you can play really good and and just not win. Uh but to answer your question, uh do we feel like we can just go out there and play our game? There's certain weeks of the year when we're we're in that zone and we're feeling good and all four guys are rolling. Yeah, we just go out there and we don't worry about what our opponent is doing. We just play our game. And we had one of those runs at the world championship last year where uh for 13

• 21:28Speaker 03

  games, we won all 13 of them and never came down to last shot. We were just we were all at our peak and and uh it was a lot of fun. Those don't happen very often, but when you have those moments in those weeks, you just you just let it ride.

• 21:41Chuck Nice?

  Hey, can you help me out with some?

• 21:42Gary O'Reilly?

  It must be an amazing thing just to be to be sat in that zone. It's not a comfort zone. It is a special zone. And then to be able to realize that, yeah, this doesn't happen all the time.

• 21:52Chuck Nice?

  No, it doesn't. Yeah.

• 21:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Incredible.

• 21:53Chuck Nice?

  Hey, tell me, help me, help me out with something technical here. Okay. Uh so I was watching some curling just to prepare for this show. And by the way, probably the most hypnotic sport I've ever encountered in my life. I don't know what it is. Once you start watching, you just can't stop watching it. I don't know what it is. But what I noticed was on the push off from the hacks, they it seems as though uh when you're in that lunge position, that you're not using your arm to propel the stone. It looks like you're just using the arm to aim the stone, and all the propulsion comes from your legs. Can you break down the uh the anatomy of the push and how that happens?

• 22:35Speaker 03

  Hmm. That's that's a great question. Uh it really is the legs and and at the top level to get that feel. Me personally, I feel like the big muscles are able to to fine tune that. When you get into the little hands and the and finger muscles and trying to shove a rock, there's a lot of variability in in what you could do. When you use your your muscles, your leg muscles, which are obviously some of the biggest muscles in your body, uh you can control it a whole lot better. And we kind of call the the push off from the hack with the leg. That's where you get your speed. The hand and the release is a little bit of fine tuning. The time from when we kick to when we release is usually around four seconds. So if we get out, kick out during those four seconds, we feel like we didn't quite kick hard enough, we could add a little bit with our hand.

• 23:19Speaker 03

  Um, obviously, the other way, if we kick a little too hard, we can just maybe just pull back on it or hold on to it for, for a millisecond or a tenth of a second longer and, and get that correct weight. So, uh, the hand and the arm is really for fine tuning. There are some players that really have a big extension, uh, and that really comes down to timing. And there's a lot of different ways to get the rock to where you want, similar to golf. You know, you look at Jim Furyk's swing versus Tiger Woods, they're completely different, but both of them can go out and shoot 65.

• 23:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 23:49Speaker 03

  Uh, similar in curling, there's a lot of different ways to throw the rock, but it really comes down to practicing and honing your skill and, and getting that fine tune feel.

• 23:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Has anyone come along and done things legitimately where you say, let's change the game? Is there a Michael Jordan of curling? There you go.

• 24:08Speaker 03

  Um, maybe not the skill level of Michael Jordan where he was so much better than other athletes or Tiger in golf. We really haven't had one of those players come along in a long time. Um, Kevin Martin would probably be one, but he's been retired now for, um, for four or five years. Uh, he would probably be the one that I could think about the most, but there's been teams that have done different things that have really changed the game. Um, our team, I'll give you an example, a couple of years ago, we had these very abrasive brooms, uh, very firm brooms, and they're actually a little bit harder than the ice. So when you swept, you're actually scratching the ice.

• 24:44Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay.

• 24:45Speaker 03

  We picked up on it way before all the other teams and, and figured out that if we swept on one side of the rock versus the other, we could actually get the rock to curl or go straight and we could almost, it was almost like a joystick going down the ice. We can control it and we were making these super precise shots look so easy. Um, and we were doing it with one sweeper, so one on each side, one and one on one, one on the other. And we were mocked for six, eight weeks while we were doing this because it was so different than everybody else. Uh, but then when they figured out what we could do, everybody caught on and it's since that point, we've actually had to rein in the brooms and the brooms are softer now and the material is, it's much smoother and, and uh, softer than the ice. So now when we put the pressure on, we can't scratch the ice like we used to.

• 25:30Chuck Nice?

  Wow. Wow. That's very cool, man. I, I'm just fascinated by how much there is to this sport and at first glance, it looks like people shoving rocks down the ice. And then when you get into this on any level, when you scratch the surface, excuse me, I, yeah, I did that. Uh, when you, when you scratch the surface, man, this thing unfolds and becomes like just a whole world within itself. Yeah, thank you.

• 25:58Speaker 03

  There, there's infinite ways to go and, and I could give you a number of other examples like that where, you know, we're still learning and, and the whole sport is still learning. Um, the fact that nobody picked up on that scratching for the last, you know, 30 years that we've been using brooms similar to this is, is really amazing. But all it took was a, a broom that was just a little bit harder for, for us to make it, um, you know, uh, obvious to everybody. Uh, but there's so many little nuances to the game and, and really the difference between being the 10th best in the world and the first best, uh, number one is, is so minute and, and it's really is just, comes down to almost intangible things, you know, communication out on the ice, uh, learning a little bit more about the rocks and the ice. And, and that's something I try to do is talk to the

• 26:42Speaker 03

  ice makers about the rocks that we're using, about the ice and how he's preparing it to see if I can gain anything, uh, from that. And, um, you'll, you'll look for every little advantage.

• 26:52Chuck Nice?

  Very cool. Just like any other sport, right? Yep.

• 26:54Gary O'Reilly?

  Just looking for that legal advantage.

• 26:56Chuck Nice?

  Looking for the legal advantage.

• 26:57Gary O'Reilly?

  Brad Gushue, thank you so much for your time and the very best of luck for you and Team Canada.

• 27:02Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, man.

• 27:03Gary O'Reilly?

  South Korea in Pyeongchang. Is that correct? Have I pronounced that name as well?

• 27:06Speaker 03

  That is correct. Our team will be in at the Olympics this year. We lost out in our Olympic trials.

• 27:11Gary O'Reilly?

  No.

• 27:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:13Gary O'Reilly?

  Recount, recall.

• 27:14Chuck Nice?

  What?

• 27:14Gary O'Reilly?

  We'll send you anyway.

• 27:16Speaker 03

  Kui going and they're really good. They're gonna go in as the gold medal favorites along with Team Sweden. Wish those guys all the best of luck and I'm sure you'll see Canada on the podium in some way, shape or form.

• 27:29Chuck Nice?

  Well, you know, I was gonna root for Canada, but now that you're not gonna be there. USA, USA, USA. Yeah.

• 27:36Gary O'Reilly?

  It won't be the same without the world champion, Brad. Just won't be the same without you, sir.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  Well, the US team are great. They're a bunch of buddies of our, buddies of our, sorry, Matt Hamilton, John Schuster. Those guys are great. They're gonna have a good chance to win a medal and if they play well, they'll be right there at the end of the week. And from my perspective, obviously, I'm cheering for Canada and Kevin Kui, but it'd be wonderful to see the United States do well and try and grow this sport a little bit more down there.

• 28:05Chuck Nice?

  There you go, man. Hey, man. Well, thanks so much for joining us.

• 28:08Gary O'Reilly?

  Brilliant.

• 28:09Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me.

• 28:09Chuck Nice?

  The camaraderie is exceptional, isn't it? Yeah, you know, this is the kind of sport where, yeah, you wanna crush your opponent, but then you wanna have a beer with them afterwards. There seems to be a real, you know, they self-manage, they're all good on the ice. There doesn't seem to be too many problems between teams and you could feel that the respect is there. There's no difficulty with getting on with all the other guys. I think it's because it's so hard to cheat at the game. It's just like, you know what? You have to have respect for your opponent, you know? Because you can't have like a dirty player. No. Yeah. But you can't have dirty ice. Yeah, mama.

• 28:38Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, dear. You know what? This is probably a perfect time to take a break. I'm gonna need it just to recover. Thank you so much to Brad Gushue. We will have Nina Roth with us when we get back. So more curling. Stick around and I'll try and clean up Chuck before we come back.

• 29:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 29:03Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 29:04Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Still Playing with Science. Yes, it is. And today, we are talking about curling. But you know that because you've been with us since the beginning. And joining us now is Nina Roth, skip of the American women's team at the 2018 Winter Olympics.

• 29:22Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, Nina, how are you? Welcome.

• 29:24Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 29:25Chuck Nice?

  Hey, Nina.

• 29:25Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome. So how does an American get involved in curling? It's not quite. It's more Canada than USA. So what dragged you into this sport?

• 29:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's definitely more big in the Midwest. So I'm from Madison, Wisconsin. The Madison Curling Club just happens to be really close to my house. So my family kind of just grew up in curling.

• 29:49Chuck Nice?

  That's very cool. You will notice, for those who are listening to the podcast, you cannot see this, but Nina, I hope that you like my headgear right here. I'm actually wearing a curling stone as a hat. It's very fetching. Yeah, man. It is. It is just, it's the look. I am now a stone head. I'm about it. I'm about it. So let me ask you this. Because it would appear that men and women can compete together on the same team. But if I'm not mistaken, they don't do that in competition. And why is that?

• 30:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, they have men's teams and they have women's teams. This year, they're starting mixed doubles teams.

• 30:35Chuck Nice?

  Oh.

• 30:36Speaker 04

  It's two people, not four, and it's a man and a woman. And they throw less stones. I actually just got done practicing with the US team, the Hamilton and Hamilton.

• 30:49Chuck Nice?

  Sweet.

• 30:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, really?

• 30:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:53Chuck Nice?

  Very cool.

• 30:53Speaker 04

  They're right here.

• 30:55Chuck Nice?

  Very cool.

• 30:56Speaker 04

  So this is Matt Hamilton.

• 30:58Chuck Nice?

  Hey, Matt Hamilton. All right. Good luck, sir. Hey, good luck to you. So it's, you know, huge responsibility to be representing your country at the Olympics. And do you find that you incorporate any physics or science when it comes to making your strategy for the sport?

• 31:21Speaker 04

  Definitely, we have to look at angles. So we're constantly looking for different advantages when we're playing. So looking at angles and trying to make those offensive choices to get the stones in the right spots that we need them.

• 31:36Gary O'Reilly?

  How long does it take you personally to master all of the techniques required to rise to the very top of curling?

• 31:44Speaker 04

  I'm still working on perfecting those techniques. You know, you always got to brush up on things and make sure that it's on point.

• 31:53Chuck Nice?

  So now, aside from practice, how do you prepare for a curling match? Are there any specific, like, mental gymnastics that you have to perform? Or is there any physical regimen that you must take that must take place in order for you to be ready for a match?

• 32:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, we do work with a sports psychologist. So she's helped us work on our mental prep. We do a lot of visualization. So in preparation for the games in particular, I've been visualizing the arena, trying to, you know, go through the motions of what it's going to feel like to be playing at the Olympic Village and those kind of things. We also do a lot of physical training. So it's a lot of strength training, so Olympic lifting and things like that. And then cardio days as well, since we're sweeping and need that endurance.

• 32:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah. You mentioned the stadium. How do you modify, change, or don't change your game as regards to the different venues that you find yourself competing in?

• 32:58Speaker 04

  Well, a lot of times, the ice will curl more or less. So the rock is moving more or less at the end. Or it can be faster or slower. So kind of have to change my game based on those ice conditions. So when we get to an event, generally, we get like our practice on all the sheets. And so we will kind of test things out and throw some shots, see what we are capable of doing, how much we're getting those rocks to curl. And then I kind of adjust my strategy based on that.

• 33:30Gary O'Reilly?

  You don't get to know prior to arrival what you can expect. You have to actually physically get down on the sheet and find out.

• 33:39Speaker 04

  Yes, a hundred percent.

• 33:40Chuck Nice?

  So when you're down on the sheet, I see, I see the players actually reading the ice the way like a golfer reads the green, uh, like the putting green. What are you, what are you looking for? Because it just looks like ice to us at home. What, what are you guys looking for?

• 33:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, you can't really judge how much, uh, what the ice is doing based on just looking at it. You need to watch a rock come down the ice and curl. So I'm looking at break points is the main thing. So, um, the point at which the rock starts to make that move. Because I need to know what that point is if I'm trying to get around another stone, um, to tap something out. Like if there's a, a guard or a rock in the front of the house and then I'm trying to hit something back here.

• 34:26Chuck Nice?

  Uh huh.

• 34:26Speaker 04

  I need to know when it's curling so that I can wrap around that top rock to get the back one.

• 34:31Gary O'Reilly?

  Do you get to use your own particular stones or are you, is everybody given new stones to perform with in the Olympics?

• 34:41Speaker 04

  The stones will be at the Olympics, so the, um, nobody's used them before. They're the Olympic stones. So, um, everyone has the same set.

• 34:51Chuck Nice?

  Oh, that's pretty cool.

• 34:52Gary O'Reilly?

  But do you, I mean, are you aware of that sort of stone? Because certain stones are made from certain different types of granite? And therefore might perform slightly different. Do you get to know what kind of stones you will be working with?

• 35:05Chuck Nice?

  Or do they just kind of put it on you at the last minute and let you practice and then you're like, okay, this is it?

• 35:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, we just practice with them. Generally, they're all from, um, all curling stones are from two quarries.

• 35:15Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 35:16Speaker 04

  In, uh, Scotland. So they're generally similar. Um, the main difference in stones is the running surface. So if you flip up a stone, the running surface is actually a circle. Um, so that the rock is like the whole bottom of the rock isn't just sitting on the ice.

• 35:33Gary O'Reilly?

  It's not flat, no, yeah.

• 35:34Speaker 04

  Right. It's just one circle. Exactly. Nice.

• 35:38Chuck Nice?

  There you go. I, I knew you were gonna say that, so I bought a visual aid.

• 35:43Chuck Nice?

  So yeah, so that's that must be um pretty cool that there's only two quarries. Is that all they do is make curling stones?

• 35:53Gary O'Reilly?

  I think one of them's a remote island in Scotland where they are and it's now a nature reserve. So you can't just walk in, blow up half of an island and then walk out with the granite. They have to do it in one time, take as much granite as they can, walk out and then come back however many years later. So there's a finite amount of granite and plus you don't want to disturb the wildlife. You upset them.

• 36:15Chuck Nice?

  So these are very special stones that you're that you're dealing with here. That's the sport is just so like, there's so many layers to this sport. Like you would never ever, ever think that there is as much to curling as there is. So um what what actually is it about this sport that because you seem to be very passionate? What is it about it that you like the absolute most?

• 36:45Speaker 04

  I like most of the strategy because it's always evolving, always changing. There's always something I can learn. You know, no game is just exactly like the one you game played before. So it's always changing and always be you always got to be on your game.

• 37:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Sweet. It's funny, we spoke to a couple of curlers and they said basically the same thing. Apart from getting to slide around on the ice and have lots of fun, it was the strategizing. The fact that they could tear an opponent apart through not just technical ability, but outthinking them, getting three, two, however many moves ahead, knowing how good they were. And it was it was a sport that takes place as much in the mind as it does on the ice.

• 37:30Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 37:32Chuck Nice?

  So when you yeah, when you talk about strategy, I mean, with what Gary just said, it reminds I was reading about this thing. It's like a, I don't know if it's a. I don't know if it's a rare play or not, but a raised takeout or a run back, and there's multiple stones being popped through, and it looks like luck when you see it played out. But you're saying that from a strategy standpoint, these are things that you guys are actually practicing? And do you do that in practice? Do you take and set up situations like, alright, if this happens, let's try to execute that? Like, you do that in football, basketball, do you do the same thing, like running plays? Do you guys do that?

• 38:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, we'll say, we'll set a score, we'll be like, so this, this color has last rock advantage, and we're down by two points, and it's the end of the game, so we need to score two points. Uh, how are we gonna mathematically get those points and, um, find the advantages against the other team?

• 38:35Chuck Nice?

  That's pretty, I gotta tell ya, I love this sport! Oh yeah, oh yeah! Who knew that I would end up loving curling? Okay, seriously, this sport is fascinating.

• 38:45Gary O'Reilly?

  I think Nina did.

• 38:46Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:47Gary O'Reilly?

  I think Nina knew that you would come out of this interview going, "I love this sport."

• 38:50Chuck Nice?

  I get, yeah, you know what? That like, like the NBA, that used to be their saying, "I love this game." Now you guys can say that, "Curling, I love this game."

• 39:00Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, well Nina, thank you.

• 39:03Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 39:03Gary O'Reilly?

  It's an absolute pleasure, and we wish you and the whole Team USA the very best of luck.

• 39:08Chuck Nice?

  USA, USA, go ahead and rock it!

• 39:12Gary O'Reilly?

  It's not quite the same if I say it, but I do wish you all the very best indeed. So, great luck, good luck.

• 39:18Speaker 04

  Thank you, thank you very much.

• 39:19Chuck Nice?

  Take care, Nina.

• 39:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you for that.

• 39:21Chuck Nice?

  Wow, man.

• 39:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, who's gonna be up all night watching curling?

• 39:24Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, look, I'm always up all night watching curling during the Olympics. I might just go home and watch it tonight, though.

• 39:29Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, you're just gonna have reruns.

• 39:31Chuck Nice?

  Exactly. Who, don't, hey, what are you watching? Yeah, well, yeah, I kind of DVR'd some curling, and I'm, I'm just gonna, instead of Netflix and chill, I'm gonna, I'm gonna curl and chill. I'm gonna curl and chill, babe.

• 39:43Gary O'Reilly?

  But what, what was interesting was, uh, Professor Eric Goff said, "We're not quite sure exactly what's happening."

• 39:50Chuck Nice?

  Right, the physics is not really figured out yet.

• 39:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Well, they've been curling since the 16th century. Surely someone must, because the laws of physics haven't changed.

• 39:58Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 39:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Not until I last looked. Why haven't they worked it out? Yeah, well, yeah, give it a few more months, right? Yeah, maybe after the Olympics, everyone will be so fascinated by it, there'll be a government think tank. Yeah. And they'll solve this. Yeah, we've had a few hundred years, you know, what's a few more months? We'll figure it out. What a fabulous show, and if you didn't like curling before, I know you do now. I've been Gary O'Reilly. And I'm still Chuck Nice. And this has been Playing with Science. See you all next time.