Griffin Dunne on Being “Kind of Brave”

Griffin Dunne is an actor, producer, director, and author of his recent memoir The Friday Afternoon Club. Dunne is known for his memorable roles in cult films such as An American Werewolf in London and Martin Scorsese's After Hours, which Dunne also produced. Dunne is also known for his roles in popular TV series such as This Is Us and Succession. His directing credits include films Practical Magic, Fierce People, and the documentary The Center Will Not Hold about his aunt, Joan Didion. Dunne tells more stories about his family and his unconventional Hollywood upbringing in his memoir The Friday Afternoon Club: A Family Memoir. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus, you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering, so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click Grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

• 1:06Speaker 03

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:36Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio. My guest today is an actor, producer, director, and author of a new memoir, The Friday Afternoon Club. Griffin Dunn is known for his roles in cult film favorites like An American Werewolf in London and Martin Scorsese's After Hours. You may have also seen Dunn in popular TV series such as This Is Us and Succession. As a director, Griffin Dunn's work includes Practical Magic, Fierce People, and the documentary on his aunt titled Joan Didion: The Center Will Not Hold. Growing up among famous relatives and a father in show business,

• 2:20Alec Baldwin?

  Griffin Dunn had an unconventional childhood.

• 2:23Speaker 05

  My father, when I was growing up, was very different than the man he ended up becoming. You know, when I was growing up, he was very angry, Irish Catholic kind of rage, you know, suppressed. He was closeted, which was, you know, not known at the time. And he was also very kind of superficial about how things looked, and he dictated what we would wear and what we'd go to school in, and it was really tough, kind of being around him. And I had that awful feeling as a kid to be a little embarrassed of my dad, you know, like, he wasn't, he wasn't like, a manly, manly guy. And, you know, my best friends, I went to a school in L.A., and everybody was in show

• 3:05Speaker 05

  business, all the parents, and my best friends, their father was, one was Jack Palance, who, you know, almost killed Shane, and the other was Howard Keel, who was a lumberjack. And then there was my dad, and, you know... It was Bob Cummings. Exactly. You know, I was once so embarrassed that I came to school and I said that my dad was in jail for robbing a bank. And, and the lie went through the school, like, smallpox or something, and the principal of the school called my dad. I go, "Oh, my God, Nick, you're out." And he goes, "What are you talking about?" "Well, I heard you were, you were in jail for robbing a bank."

• 3:47Speaker 05

  And he brought me, my dad brought me into the, you know, into this room, and he said, "Is that something you'd like me to do?" So when it came time, you know, for him, as many couples do when they break the news to their kids that they're going to get a divorce, they plan what they're going to say, you know, so it looks like a mutual decision, and... Did your dad see he was going back to prison?

• 4:15Speaker 05

  Now, we would have loved that. But he, you know, my dad had the first line. And he went off script. He just burst into tears and went, "Your mother doesn't love me anymore and she's dumped me and she's leaving." And, you know, we were all, I was about 10, my brother was eight, my sister was six. And we'd never really seen adults quite cry before. And it was particularly my younger brother and sister. So they burst into tears and they were really crying and my dad was really going at it. And I got nothing. I got, I'm dry as a bone and I just feel awful.

• 4:52Alec Baldwin?

  The chorus line.

• 4:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:54Alec Baldwin?

  I felt nothing.

• 4:55Speaker 05

  I felt nothing. And so I try to, you know, get a couple of whimpers going and I, and I cover my eyes and I'm making sounds and I'm looking, I see my mother, she's crying, I'm, wow, that's really bad. And then I open my eyes and she's looking at me through her eyes. And they're just totally dry. And I catch her faking it, she knows I'm faking it. And a bond happened.

• 5:22Alec Baldwin?

  The beginning of a beautiful relationship.

• 5:24Speaker 05

  Beginning of a beautiful relationship. And, and when he, you know, moved out, I became at a very young age, sort of the man of the house.

• 5:31Alec Baldwin?

  How old?

• 5:32Speaker 05

  I was 11.

• 5:33Alec Baldwin?

  Me too, same thing happened with me.

• 5:34Speaker 05

  Really?

• 5:35Alec Baldwin?

  Well, not so much in divorce, but at some point, my sister and I were Cinderella. We were the help.

• 5:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 5:41Alec Baldwin?

  My brother spent the whole day, every day, shooting basketballs, playing wiffle ball in pools. And my sister and I did the laundry, raked the leaves, cut the grass, shoveled the snow, cooked the meals. Then, so you're 12 and when he leaves, where does he go? Does he go far away or is he nearby?

• 5:56Speaker 05

  He goes to an apartment, you know, real kind of a Jack Lemmon bachelor apartment.

• 6:01Alec Baldwin?

  This is New York or California?

• 6:02Speaker 05

  In California. And, you know, real, you know, sad sack kind of a apartment that we're supposed to go to on the weekends that we never do. And, you know, my mom was like, she, what, she's, became very, I would say she, um...

• 6:18Speaker 05

  She would overshare and, you know, and she, you know, she liked her wine and, and she let me stay up late. I felt terribly grown up and she'd let me have a little sips of wine like they do in Europe with the children in Europe.

• 6:31Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 6:32Speaker 05

  And she'd get a little bombed and, and just overshare and I felt terribly grown up, you know?

• 6:39Alec Baldwin?

  My dad would be, uh, come home from work. He'd come home and he'd get on the couch and have the New York Times and he'd read those pithy little, uh, blurbs about the movies on TV on Million, uh, uh, The Late Show.

• 6:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:49Alec Baldwin?

  And he'd read it and he'd say, you know, uh, Ball of Fire, that's a great movie, he'd say to me. Let's watch a few minutes. And my dad would go, no, you gotta go to bed. It's 11:30. You gotta go to bed. It's 11:30. I go, let's watch 10 minutes of it. Just 10. He goes, all right, we'll watch 10 minutes. 10 minutes goes by. He's fast asleep. He passes out on the couch and I watched all of Ball of Fire, How Green Was My Valley, Sorry Wrong Number, Passage to Marseille. I watched all the movies I watched in my life. And like, like you, they wanted, they were lonely. They wanted companions.

• 7:17Speaker 05

  Absolutely. No, that's the other thing that happened too, was like all the structure went out the window and my mother, you know, was, uh, beginning to get sick. She had MS and, and so we would go to her bedroom and we'd eat on TV trays, everything. And it would be, you know, um, we had a housekeeper that pretty much raised me as well. She was Mexican and we would have, um, rice and beans just on the thing. We would eat at all different hours. We'd take our tray and we'd watch movies.

• 7:48Alec Baldwin?

  Perfect.

• 7:48Speaker 05

  And, and we would watch movies till, they, uh, my brother and sister go to sleep, but she'd let me stay up. And we would watch, you know, there, there was one movie called Suddenly Last Summer that was so terrifying to me, you know, and I guess that there was like a really scary gay theme that was under and cannibalism and there was Katharine Hepburn, you know, on, on one of those chairs that would come down the stairs.

• 8:13Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 05

  And for some reason we, and it would be a million dollar movie and, you know, they play the movies over and over and over. So we would watch this movie. We knew it line by line. And then when my mother, you know, advanced further, she had to get one of those chairs. And we would just do Katharine Hepburn imitations on this chair.

• 8:32Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 8:32Speaker 05

  Coming down the stairs.

• 8:35Speaker 05

  All those late night movies, you know, really were imprinted. They became like the language that we would speak. My mother just knew every movie, every musical, every one.

• 8:45Alec Baldwin?

  Was she an actress at some point?

• 8:46Speaker 05

  She wanted to be.

• 8:47Alec Baldwin?

  But she wasn't?

• 8:47Speaker 05

  She, she, when she got pregnant with me, uh, she decided to just become a housewife.

• 8:54Alec Baldwin?

  Now, when she, when you say her symptoms of MS, her battle with MS began when she was how old?

• 8:59Speaker 05

  I'd say in her thirties.

• 9:01Alec Baldwin?

  Cause she died when she was sixty-five?

• 9:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:03Alec Baldwin?

  Down in?

• 9:04Speaker 05

  Uh, in Nogales.

• 9:05Alec Baldwin?

  In Nogales. That's kind of her family's?

• 9:07Speaker 05

  That's where she went, she returned there.

• 9:08Alec Baldwin?

  And your fa- your mother's family, that was the railroad wheel car enterprise?

• 9:14Speaker 05

  Exactly. Her father was from family that in-

• 9:19Alec Baldwin?

  Chicago.

• 9:19Speaker 05

  Chicago, called, and they had the Griffin Wheel Company. And the Griffin Wheels were at one time on all the Pullman cars in America. So it was quite an empire.

• 9:29Alec Baldwin?

  Yes.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  And, and my grandfather really had no interest in taking on that business. He, uh, when he-

• 9:37Alec Baldwin?

  That idiot.

• 9:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, I know. But, but was he thinking? And he went to, um, he was like, you know, like Teddy Roosevelt. He had weak lungs and ended up in Arizona when he was a kid and just fell in love with the, with the landscape. And the air and the desert. So when he could, he was supposed to be married in a society wedding in Chicago. And he literally left her on the altar and went to Nogales where he became a cattle rancher. And knew nothing about cattle and bred this like, uh, very risky kind of cow. And, and was very successful at it. And, and my mother grew up on this ranch.

• 10:17Alec Baldwin?

  So I'm assuming, not to be gauche about this, but your mother's family was one of all the resources that you grew up with them?

• 10:22Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 10:23Alec Baldwin?

  She flirted with being an actress, but she didn't take it seriously?

• 10:26Speaker 05

  She, she didn't. She didn't. And she wasn't, uh, I, I think she had tremendous regret about it, you know? And when I, later, when I got kicked out of school and I decided to become an actor, moved to New York. And I was a high school dropout. She actually wasn't disappointed. She was a little oddly envious and she was like, kind of, go for it.

• 10:48Alec Baldwin?

  All of our parents are like that.

• 10:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:50Alec Baldwin?

  Now, you're, was your, I didn't see the photos of the, your mother was a beautiful woman. Was she camera ready?

• 10:56Speaker 05

  She was so beautiful. She was often mistaken for Jennifer Jones.

• 11:00Alec Baldwin?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:00Speaker 05

  And for Elizabeth Taylor in A Place in the Sun.

• 11:04Alec Baldwin?

  Ooh.

• 11:04Speaker 05

  That's the look I remember.

• 11:05Alec Baldwin?

  That'll work.

• 11:06Speaker 05

  Oh, my God. And I was, as a little boy, I, I knew how beautiful she was. I was just in awe of her beauty. And in this family, as you said, all this Griffin Wheel Company money kind of withered down. She was very comfortable and was able to, when she married my dad, my dad was able to, you know, buy a house that he wouldn't normally have been able to buy.

• 11:28Alec Baldwin?

  Of course.

• 11:28Speaker 05

  But, you know, the previous generations, outside of the founder of Griffin, who in the 1870s, they were all scoundrels and drunks and philanderers, you know.

• 11:39Alec Baldwin?

  Didn't handle money well.

• 11:41Speaker 05

  Absolutely. It just sort of dwindled down, you know, that her grandfather, my mother's grandfather, you know, died on, with his mistress, on a yacht off Palm Beach.

• 11:52Alec Baldwin?

  Yes.

• 11:52Speaker 05

  And, and his crew loaded his body onto a tender and checked him into the, uh,

• 11:58Alec Baldwin?

  The breakers.

• 11:59Speaker 05

  The breakers.

• 12:00Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 12:00Speaker 05

  And, and then-

• 12:01Alec Baldwin?

  They propped him up in the breakers.

• 12:02Speaker 05

  They propped him up and then they called the wife, Mrs. Griffin, and said, we have terrible news. Your husband is dead. And she turned to her lover, who was an admiral in, in the Navy.

• 12:13Alec Baldwin?

  And they were in the Coronado? Where were they?

• 12:14Speaker 05

  In Coronado, exactly. And she said, my husband died.

• 12:19Alec Baldwin?

  If there's ever a split screen scene in a movie, this is it.

• 12:21Speaker 05

  This is like Sturgis, you know? And she says, my husband died. We can get married. And do you want to go to the funeral? And so they get married the next day and then-

• 12:34Alec Baldwin?

  They get on a train.

• 12:35Speaker 05

  And then they get on a train and they head to the funeral. And, and then they, the Griffin family is so outraged because it's front page news. In the New York Times, it's all over. It's called Widow for a Day. And, and they derail the train to go to Wisconsin.

• 12:49Alec Baldwin?

  They uncouple the train to send them on their way.

• 12:51Speaker 05

  And she got all the money, too.

• 12:53Alec Baldwin?

  Now, your dad, who I knew of him, met him at the screening of The Dock in Southampton.

• 12:59Speaker 05

  I remember.

• 13:00Alec Baldwin?

  The latter day, as what people called him then, Nick Dunn.

• 13:03Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:03Alec Baldwin?

  The latter day Nick Dunn and his pals was just very, very warm and sweet and kind.

• 13:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, he loved you.

• 13:09Alec Baldwin?

  And he kind of really just divested himself of all of angry, well, what we'll call Mick Dunn.

• 13:15Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:17Alec Baldwin?

  I don't know about that, but anyway, when you decide you want to become an actor, how does it begin? Meaning you start, you go where to become an actor?

• 13:25Speaker 05

  Well, I was sent, uh...

• 13:27Alec Baldwin?

  You studied?

• 13:27Speaker 05

  Well, my parents always sent me to these boys' schools. I never went to school of girls. But from the time I was 11...

• 13:34Alec Baldwin?

  You made up for that, didn't you?

• 13:35Speaker 05

  Well, probably. I mean, I, it was just like the thing that you can't have. And, you know, when I went to this boarding school when I was 11, and we did operettas by Gilbert and Sullivan, and only we would wear dresses. I would wear like Buttercup, and I'd have tennis balls for breasts, and we'd wear lipstick and wigs. I mean, it was pretty fucked up.

• 14:01Alec Baldwin?

  You're a T-10, yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 05

  So, so I didn't really think I wanted to be an actor after that. And then, and also, you know, as I ended up in high school in another school, I really wasn't crazy about showbiz. I loved what my aunt and uncle were doing, that they were journalists. I thought, maybe I'd like to do that. And this guy talked me, the drama teacher, a guy named Hunter Frost, just insisted that I audition for Zoo Story by Edward...

• 14:26Alec Baldwin?

  This is where now again?

• 14:27Speaker 05

  In Colorado.

• 14:28Alec Baldwin?

  Got it.

• 14:29Speaker 05

  I read this play, and I understood Jerry in Zoo Story immediately. I auditioned, and I got the part, and once I did that play, and I felt that thing from the audience, and I just knew that was what I was gonna do. So I became kind of Joe Actor on the campus. And then I was doing Iago in Othello. We were in rehearsal, and literally kids would come watch me, and the principal would watch, sit in the back and watch. And I knew he was thinking, this kid's gonna be great for fundraising in the future. This'll be great. And my best friend at the time, who got really heavily into drugs, comes in my room the night before the performance with a joint, you know, or a hash pipe,

• 15:09Speaker 05

  and he lights it up, and I take a toke, and the guy, a teacher walks in, and I get kicked out of school. And I never get to do Othello. But it gave me the bug to, it was just a matter of time. At that time, I was seventeen. By the time I was eighteen, I was moving to New York. I went to the Neighborhood Playhouse. Only did one year there. I had real discipline problems.

• 15:32Alec Baldwin?

  That's at Wynn.

• 15:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, Wynn Hammond was a teacher there. And I had a guy named Freddie Karaman, who was incredible. So I only went there a year. I wasn't asked back a second year. And then I studied with Lou DeHagen, who I was well out of my league, you know, when I went there. I hadn't done anything. And I fibbed about what I did on resume. And I prepared a monologue from Catcher in the Rye. That soon as I saw her, I immediately forgot every word. And I just made it up. So I took a bus down here. And I changed the thing. And I bought a donut at the, whatever occurred to me. And I made it sound like Holden Caulfield. And she went, darling, that was incredible.

• 16:17Speaker 05

  She could tell I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. Like, you know, three or four times. Yeah. But I begged her to let me stay. And then I kind of found myself in that class. And she was incredible. Did you ever study with Stella Adler?

• 16:31Alec Baldwin?

  No, I went to Strasburg. I was sent, back then, they had Stella, Jack Garfine, their own in-house ETW, Strasburg. And my teachers were Marcia Holfrecht, who I loved, and Jeffrey Horn, who's my dear friend. Jeffrey's like ninety-two now.

• 16:46Speaker 05

  Stella used to do a workshop in Los Angeles for one summer. And so I went to audition for that. This is before I went to the Playhouse. And I was just such an earnest young man. And I thought I was auditioning for her, but it was for a guy who sounded very much like your teacher. And I did Candida, the Shaw play. And I was acting my little heart out. And he had a dog with a collar that must have had a million char blazes. And he would scratch all the way through my thing. And he goes, I'm not really sure you quite got the stuff for Stella. You might have to come back. So I came back. I did it. I worked so hard. And he said, I'm gonna take a chance on you.

• 17:29Speaker 05

  So she let, he lets me be with Stella. And I come to Stella in the first class. She's just this dynamic, strong woman. Sometimes she would say, she would grab the hem of her shirt. And she'd go, "It's gotta come from here." And you think she means her heart, but then she pulls down her T-shirt and you see her breasts for like, two seconds. And then she pulls them back up. You go, "Oh, my God." "It's gotta come from there."

• 17:55Alec Baldwin?

  I'm sorry, I missed that class.

• 17:57Speaker 05

  And I'm looking at the class, around the class. There are not many women, and the most incredibly handsome men I've ever seen in my whole life.

• 18:06Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 18:07Speaker 05

  I mean, jaws that come out of here. And, you know, dimples and things. So he goes, "All right, so we'll take the first scene here. Vic Ronson and Rock Thurber, can you..." And these guys come up.

• 18:22Alec Baldwin?

  Studly horseballs.

• 18:24Speaker 05

  They go, "What..." Sally goes, "So what scene are you boys gonna be doing?" "We're gonna do the shootout scene, the final shootout scene from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid." "I did Canada. I did Shaw." So they go and they stand behind these, they crouch behind these Samsonite chairs. They take out their fingers and they go, "Pew, pew." "You ready, Butch?" "Ready, Sundance." And they just do "pew" for the whole scene. And she goes, "Oh, that was wonderful." And so I was just the only straight guy in the class, I guess. I don't know what.

• 19:00Alec Baldwin?

  This is in L.A.?

• 19:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 19:01Alec Baldwin?

  Of course it is.

• 19:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 19:02Alec Baldwin?

  My great gift from doing Strasberg was gender reversal casting. You know, they cast a production of Cuckoo's Nest, and I was Nurse Ratchet as a man.

• 19:12Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 19:12Alec Baldwin?

  But I remember that whole idea. So when I teach acting, I got gender reversal, everything. Glenn Gary.

• 19:17Speaker 05

  Well, I gotta tell you, you know, my daughter was in American Buffalo in high school. And to do it with an all-female cast, it was mind-blowing. Because you see that those guys are protecting their masculinity. They have so much going, you know, to protect in their manhood. And to see women play that is an entirely another dimension. It was incredibly moving. I love when that happened.

• 19:46Alec Baldwin?

  In an acting class, I had a guy, this was an acting class for non-majors at Southampton College, and the guy comes in, he's a mailman on Long Island. He's a mailman who wanted to take the acting class with me. Probably 40 pounds overweight, he's a big barrel of a man. So I made him do the children's hour. I made him stand with another guy and go.

• 20:02Speaker 05

  Stay with a lesbian?

• 20:03Alec Baldwin?

  I made him stand on the stage with another guy and go, but I do love you that way. You know what I mean? I wanted everybody to try everything, you know?

• 20:09Speaker 05

  I love that when people have that drive and but they've got a life that has nothing to do with acting before they decide to become actors. A real life. And that's so fascinating to me, how some people get into. It was one guy at the neighborhood playhouse who went through the entire medical school and had a degree, a doctorate degree to be a brain surgeon. A brain surgeon. And he said, no, I want to go to acting class. Like, wow, okay. I mean, that's the kind of pull of doing what you love.

• 20:51Alec Baldwin?

  Actor and director Griffin Dunn. If you enjoy conversations about complex family relationships, check out my episode with novelist Erica Zhang and her daughter, writer Molly Zhang Fast.

• 21:05Speaker 06

  On the one hand, you're supposed to look like a fashion model, retouched. And on the other hand, you're supposed to claim to a sophistication you don't and cannot have at that age. And I think that women who are 14, 15 are in the most difficult position they have ever been in modern society. What do you think about that?

• 21:27Speaker 00

  I mean, I agree. I think there's a lot of sexuality. I think it's not explained to young girls in a way.

• 21:34Speaker 06

  Very confusing, Molly.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  But I think that's a legacy of the feminist movement. I mean, we said we wanted...

• 21:40Speaker 06

  It is not a legacy of the feminist movement.

• 21:45Alec Baldwin?

  To hear more of my conversation with Erica Zhang and Molly Zhang Fast, go to here's the thing.org. After the break, Griffin Dunn shares how Tim Burton almost directed the film After Hours instead of Martin Scorsese.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.

• 22:27Speaker 07

  My small experience with the discrepancy in the business of music made me angry in the best way, and I wanted to, I wanted to finish. So I started really like leaning into my therapy, trying to get down to like what matters now. Somewhere, Miguelito felt like he didn't have a place to say how he felt, and music was the place that I went to, to say how I felt.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 22:58Speaker 08

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 23:28Speaker 09

  This is Shirley Strawberry from the Steve Harvey Morning Show. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla Sedan, with the latest features and tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in, get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shoptoyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 24:11Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Griffin Dunn starred in Martin Scorsese's 1985 film After Hours, which has since become a cult classic. In addition to his leading role in the film, Dunn was also a producer. I was curious about his involvement in the project after what Dunn describes as a difficult start to his acting career.

• 24:36Speaker 05

  I had a very hard time getting an acting job, and I really didn't establish myself and start to work somewhat regularly until I produced a movie with my partner Amy Robinson and a guy named Mark Metcalfe. And we actually produced a movie with no experience for United Artists, and I gave myself a small part in it, and it got the biggest laugh. And that led to Werewolf. And Amy and I then produced another movie called Baby It's You with John Sales. And we had an incredible crew that we put together. There was a member of a union called NABIT. And so we had this, all these wonderful people working together. And Amy read this script. So I had a little bit of cred as an actor, but Amy read this script when she was at

• 25:19Speaker 05

  the Sundance Institute by a Serbian director named Dujan Makaveev. Gave her the script and said, "You know, my assistant wrote this. He's from Colombia. This was his thesis." And Amy reads it and goes, "This is unbelievable." And she sends it to me. I'm in Los Angeles at that time. And I'm blown away by the script. The anxiety, I had to read it standing up and turn the pages with my big toe. I can just go, "Oh, my God." And so Amy was Teresa in Mean Streets. And she knew Marty Scorsese, and she said, "He'd be really good for this. Like, he's really funny." Like, "Really?" So we got it to Marty.

• 26:03Speaker 05

  And, but Marty was just off to do Last Temptation of Christ, the first time around, with Aiden Quinn playing Christ. So he was unavailable. And then we go to a, Amy and I were wondering who to direct, and my friend Terry Garr had signed on already, but we didn't have a director. And we go see this movie, I forget which the movie was, but the short was directed by a guy named Tim Burton. And we went, well, what about him? And so we go to Burbank Studios, where he's an animator, at one of those desks, you know, with lots of other animators. And we go to lunch, and it's this brilliant, young guy, you know, with the pencil pocket pencil thing and the ink coming through. Pocket protector. Pocket protector.

• 26:48Speaker 05

  And he does little drawings and stuff, and you just go, wow, what's this gonna be? And around this time, we're trying to raise money with me, nobody, Terry, somebody, but still, Tim had not done a movie. It was a tough sell. Marty's movie get canceled in Morocco, and he's gotta come back. And on his way back, he reads at the top of the pile, his after hours. And he lands, and he gets back to us, we all had the same attorney named Jay Julian. So then we had to like, tell Tim, and we went, craziest thing happened. And he knew that we went to Marty first. And we start to tell him, like, very guilty intrepidations. Wait, are you telling me Mr.

• 27:33Speaker 05

  Scorsese wants to do this movie? Well, yeah, he said, we haven't gotten back to him yet. He goes, I gracefully withdraw. I won't do anything to stand in his way. So then it was just meeting Marty, and I kept waiting for him. I mean, it was implicit that I was going to play Paul Hackett. But I did wait for him to also say how great Bobby would be in this. But then he was like, no. Anyway, he started to say, oh, I saw you in Werewolf, and that was really great. And he never thought twice about it. So anyway, we're off and running. And then I mentioned the Nabit crew because this was so low budget, and he was in a bit of director's jail from King of Comedy, which we now know to be brilliant, but at that

• 28:17Speaker 05

  time was just getting the shit kicked out of it. And it was very expensive and all that stuff. So he was like, had to be, had to show that I can do Mean Streets again. I can, you know, be low to the ground, but not with an IA crew. So we gave him the Nabit crew. And... All those people, you know, from Michael Ballhaus, that's how we met Michael.

• 28:39Alec Baldwin?

  I did work together with Ballhaus, yeah.

• 28:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, I know, yeah. And I remember. So anyway, he took all these people on with him with movies, many, many of the people from that crew.

• 28:48Alec Baldwin?

  How, where'd you get the money from?

• 28:50Speaker 05

  Uh, Geffen. Geffen Films, David Geffen.

• 28:53Alec Baldwin?

  Who did Beetlejuice with Tim.

• 28:55Speaker 05

  He did Beetlejuice with you.

• 28:57Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah, with Tim.

• 28:57Speaker 05

  And, uh, yes. And matter of fact, I wanted that part really bad. And I thought, how come I can star in this movie and maybe it's because I gave Tim a movie and then took it away that I didn't get your part.

• 29:10Alec Baldwin?

  Let's be honest, I was probably a lot cheaper than you were at that point.

• 29:13Speaker 05

  Well, no, no, I was cheap. I was so cheap.

• 29:15Alec Baldwin?

  I was dirt cheap.

• 29:16Speaker 05

  No, you could have got me for a song. So, yeah, he did the, uh, he, he financed it and he, um...

• 29:21Alec Baldwin?

  How many days you shoot?

• 29:23Speaker 05

  God, it was like thirty. It was considered like, look how fast we are, running and gunning to the ground and getting it. Marty was unbelievably prepared. So there was never, we never fell behind or anything. But it was like, in those days too, with a movie like thirty days, that's all? I mean, you know, nine and a half weeks. I'm sure it took a lot longer than nine and a half weeks. I mean, you, you, you would shoot for months.

• 29:48Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 29:48Speaker 05

  And now, it's like, no, you only got thirty days. Oh, we can do it. And so, you know, helicopters, bring it down. We're landing the thing. That's more than enough. With a gun to your head, you can do whatever. I don't, I haven't been on one of those movies for months and years.

• 30:02Alec Baldwin?

  Oh, I mean, I, I did the movie Cat in the Hat with Mike Myers, which was just a silly role. I wanted to do Cat in the Hat because of Bo, because I loved Bo.

• 30:09Speaker 05

  I loved Bo too.

• 30:10Alec Baldwin?

  Love Bo to death. He was one of the greatest guys in the business. Catherine O'Hara's husband, who did all the, you know, Scissor Hands and everything.

• 30:16Speaker 05

  And Catherine from After Hours.

• 30:17Alec Baldwin?

  And Catherine. Right, right, exactly. And you knew it was a long movie because the makeup room decor changed from pumpkins to turkeys to Christmas trees.

• 30:26Speaker 05

  That's right. All the seasons.

• 30:28Alec Baldwin?

  To Valentines. We were there for fucking six months doing this thing. With a lot of breaks, but I mean, it was really... I haven't done one like that in a long time.

• 30:35Speaker 05

  No, I mean, that, that doesn't exist anymore. You know, and I just fell into a, uh, you know, when you're clicking around and then you just went, that's not what I intended to watch at all. And then you're there for the next, was Hunt for Red October.

• 30:47Alec Baldwin?

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:48Speaker 05

  Uh, how long did that take?

• 30:50Alec Baldwin?

  That was a few months because I think that they gave McTiernan, who was, you know, coming off of a couple, he did Die Hard. He was doing well. This was the launch of the Clancy.

• 30:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:59Alec Baldwin?

  Library. This was the first one they did. So they were really behind it. I always remember that movie that I remember sitting there at one point. It didn't hit me till I was there. It was like, how many great actors there were in that movie? Almost makes me cry.

• 31:10Speaker 05

  Oh, it's incredible.

• 31:10Alec Baldwin?

  I mean, Scott Glenn, James Earl Jones, Sean, Tim Curry, Firth.

• 31:16Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:17Alec Baldwin?

  Firth, who speaks that unbroken monologue in Russian as they push him.

• 31:20Speaker 05

  I love, that's my favorite thing. I've always wanted to steal that for something. Did you, uh, ever dream that that director would someday be in prison?

• 31:28Alec Baldwin?

  Well, no, I kept in touch with him and I think what he basically told me was it was not, I don't know if this is the right word, prosecutorial overreach. I think that he is involved in a case where they want to get him for something. And they finally get him for, what do you call it, perjury. He lied about something in a timeline.

• 31:44Speaker 05

  Once they catch you in a lie, then, and they're going after the lie after the bigger fish, and the bigger fish was the detective, uh, you know, the private ally, who tapped everyone. He's actually in the book and I'm.

• 31:55Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah, he was on our show.

• 31:57Speaker 05

  Oh, really?

• 31:58Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:58Alec Baldwin?

  He was on our show. We're talking about Anthony Pellicano. And Pellicano was on the show. He did our show.

• 32:04Speaker 05

  Oh, really?

• 32:04Alec Baldwin?

  Well, because, but he went to prison for years because he wasn't rat.

• 32:07Speaker 05

  Oh, I'm well aware.

• 32:08Alec Baldwin?

  He says, I think he says in our show, "I'm no rat, Alec." And he went, he went to jail for, to prison for a long, long time. He's in your book, was he?

• 32:15Speaker 05

  He...

• 32:16Alec Baldwin?

  What was he doing for the Dunn family back then?

• 32:19Speaker 05

  Well, I change tones possibly here. When the man who killed my sister, who's right here on the cover of this book, there, when the man killed my sister and did such a small amount of time, three and a half years, both my father and I became obsessed with, with rage and ruining where he would be and.

• 32:40Alec Baldwin?

  You had an alternate plan for him?

• 32:42Speaker 05

  Yes, we did.

• 32:46Alec Baldwin?

  Actor and director Griffin Dunn. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Griffin Dunn explains his family's shared obsession in the aftermath of his sister's tragic death.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by my friend, John Legend. What still makes you just sit down at the piano?

• 33:38Speaker 10

  If you sat down at 9:00 a.m. and then at noon, you had a full song that you recorded and put in your voice recorder or you recorded at your studio. You've just created something brand new that didn't exist when you woke up. What a beautiful feeling it is. I'm always excited to write something new. I've been writing for Broadway, which has been a new challenge with new collaborators and amazing performers who are triple threats, who can sing and dance and act and do all these amazing things. And I want to keep feeling that. And so that means not resting on my laurels, going out there and continuing to create something new.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:22Speaker 08

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 34:52Speaker 09

  This is Shirley Strawberry from the Steve Harvey Morning Show. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla sedan with the latest features and tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in, get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shoptoyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 35:37Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin. And you're listening to Here's the Thing. In 1982, Griffin Dunn's sister Dominique was murdered by her ex-boyfriend. She was only 22 years old. The jury acquitted her killer of the second-degree murder charge and found him guilty of only voluntary manslaughter. He received a six-year prison sentence for the lesser charge and went free after serving nearly two and a half years. As a result of what they considered a miscarriage of justice, Griffin Dunn and his family sought their own ways to right the situation.

• 36:15Speaker 05

  I used to find out where he worked and get him fired. And my mother actually would organize... He was a chef. And if he worked in a restaurant, there was a place called the Santa Monica Chronicle. And my mother organized a picket and had signs that the man who prepared your food strangled my daughter. And the Santa Monica Chronicle got rid of him. And sometimes I would find out if he had a girlfriend. And I would get in touch with the girlfriend and break them up. And both my dad and I kind of lost our shit. Anyway, he kind of fell off the map and he called Anthony Pellicano to find out where he was.

• 36:58Speaker 05

  And Pellicano found out that the guy had changed his name and had moved to Washington, I believe, you know, to Seattle. Moved out of the state. And he was very... You know, my dad loved... He loved cops. He loved journalists. He loved crime. And he really... You know, he was really charmed by Pellicano. You know, he really loved the guy. And he was really helpful. I don't think he charged him a dime. He just, you know... Pellicano was very...

• 37:27Alec Baldwin?

  He did some pro bono work.

• 37:29Speaker 05

  He did a little pro bono. You know, and he wanted to say, you know, "I threw a bone to Dominic Dunn. I helped him out a bit," you know, whatever.

• 37:37Alec Baldwin?

  Now, two things.

• 37:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:39Alec Baldwin?

  So the thing, obviously, the book is steeped in these tragedies you've had to deal with. And I'm not gonna say there's death everywhere, but obviously you and your father are... Your lives are changed by what happened to your sister, without a doubt. I was friends with Jelko Ivanikov. I mean, I am friends with him. I never see him anymore. And he was dating Rebecca Schaefer right before she was killed.

• 37:59Speaker 05

  Well, we know that. And from that, the families that supported Rebecca Schaefer... Attended our trial. They were called Parents of Murdered Children. And I believe that was started by Sharon Tate's mother, Doris Tate. She started this group, this support group. And Rebecca Schaper's parents were involved and were there. And there was a trial, I think, for some, that guy was, you know, was a fan or something. And there was a guy with, who, you know, delivered Arrowhead water. I remember he's the one who, who captured the killer. Horrible thing, yeah. And Teresa Saldano's family was also a member. But, yeah, that was a crazy time.

• 38:39Alec Baldwin?

  I mean, obviously, this is a long time ago in your life. What's the business like for you now in terms of you still like to make movies? You want to produce movies, act in movies, TV shows? Does acting still interest you?

• 38:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, my desire, my ambition, drive has not dropped at all. At one point, I thought I was going to just hang it up with the acting. It was like, I was just doing, I went from, you know, after hours and made stupid choices over the years, and suddenly it was fourth banana if that kind, if a banana was even that big. And I thought, I don't, I don't get this. And I'm getting older and, you know, everybody, I went to a neighborhood playoffs with my age, and I've never heard of anybody, so I'm gonna just go off on the sunset. And then somebody suggested, told me they were taking a Chekhov class. It was taught by a Russian, a guy from where Stanislavski came from, the Russian institute.

• 39:35Speaker 05

  And this teacher, who didn't speak a word of English, through a translator. I did Ivanov, and I've never done Chekhov before. And I'm like, this is like, maybe six years ago. I'm, you know, looking like this, I'm feeling, you know, the middle age, and I'm feeling I'm coming up on all sorts of shit, of aging and everything. And I got it. I got like, I think I know who I am as an actor. I'm funny and tragic and pathetic and kind of brave. And I want to take chances. And I just, I got so excited about acting. And out of the blue, Around that same time, as it can only happen in our business,

• 40:17Speaker 05

  I get a call from Dan Fogelman to be in the show This Is Us. He said, "I want you to play a guy who's suicidal. He's a drunk, he's a diabetic, he lives in a cabin, but he's actually kind of funny." And I went, "Oh, my God, I know how to do that." I'm a suicidal diabetic. I can do this. Come on. And I can get a laugh putting a gun in my mouth. And so it was just a wonderful part. Then it just reinvigorated my feeling about acting. And ever since then, I've done really interesting stuff. I'm in this very funny movie called Ex-Husbands, where I'm a guy who's my age with grown sons, who's going through a divorce,

• 41:02Speaker 05

  who crashes his son's bachelor party getting married in Tulum. And, you know, I'm suddenly carrying on this whole Chekhov thing, you know. Who's the director? Noah Pritzker. Oh, I know Noah Pritzker. Oh, you do? Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, of course, you know, and he's got a house up where you guys were too. Yeah, yeah, I know the whole Pritzker gang there. Yeah, yeah, well, his uncle, that's, you know, he could be one of the, we could be hearing a lot more from his uncle and the governor of Illinois. So what about a play? When's the last you did a play? That I haven't done in a long time. Would you want to do one? I would, I would. The last play I did was called Search and Destroy that Howard Corder wrote at Circle on the Square. And that was a fantastic part. We made it into a movie that no one saw,

• 41:46Speaker 05

  but it had Chris Walken and Ethan Hawke and Marty produced it. And I'm just thinking like, I've done a lot of things that no one likes at the time. Then, you know, Criterion goes, "Oh, there's..." They rediscover them. Yes, yes. It's like the Orson Welles lost movies. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, the longer you wait. It's 20 minutes of a guy walking along the shore, and then finally he stops and finds a boat. Mm-hmm. And that's it. And that's it. And then 20 years later, someone will come up and go, "That guy who walked along the shore, that changed me." My God. That was so good. And then the word gets out and suddenly you got like five rotten tomatoes, when they hated it the first time.

• 42:30Speaker 05

  Well, let me just say, you're one of those people. Everybody in this business loves you. Thank you, Alec. Good to see you. You too, buddy.

• 42:40Alec Baldwin?

  My thanks to actor and director Griffin Dunn. This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City and Monk Music in East Hampton, New York. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeese, and Victoria DeMartin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.

• 43:23Speaker 11

  With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. Whether you're leading a big project, planning an elaborate trip, or trying to balance work and life, ChatGPT can help. Give it a goal, plus things like files, notes, or project plans, develop a trip itinerary with daily updates, or create a prioritized schedule, so you can spend less energy sorting out the details and more on bringing your biggest ideas to life. Get started at ChatGPT.com.

• 43:51Speaker 12

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 44:20Speaker 09

  This is Shirley Strawberry from the Steve Harvey Morning Show. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla Sedan with the latest features and tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in, get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. ShopToyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 45:01Speaker 13

  Breathe in and reset with Lincoln Rejuvenate. An available multisensory feature in the 2027 Lincoln Navigator SUV. Experience the luxurious massage, visuals, and sense to help you relax in the driver's seat. It's your time for a reset. Visit Lincoln.com to learn more. Lincoln Rejuvenate does not operate unless the vehicle is in park. When the vehicle is off or if any doors open, do not use the feature in a closed garage or in other enclosed areas. See owner's manual for important operating instructions. Lincoln and Navigator are trademarks of Ford or its affiliates. All rights reserved.

• 45:31Speaker 12

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.