Robert Greene: How to Deal with Negative People When They Are in Your Family, Friend Circle or Work

How do you deal with negative people close to you? How do you stay positive around negative people? Today, Jay welcomes Robert Greene, known for his bestsellers like "The 48 Laws of Power" and "The Daily Laws." Robert's works draw on historical figures and events to provide insights into the dynamics of power and social influence. His books are often used as guides for personal development, leadership, and understanding the complexities of human interactions. Robert shares tips on dealing with negative people, emphasizing the importance of emotional distance and understanding that everyone has their flaws and shares his thoughts on the idea that our sense of self is just a mental construct, and real enlightenment comes from letting go of our egos. He also stresses the importance of questioning your beliefs to truly understand who you are and what you’re meant to do in life. Followed by Jay and Robert's discussion on why it's more important to judge people by their character rather than their intelligence or charm, how a strong character is shown by handling criticism well, working well with others, and managing stress. They also talk about how modern life can make us less empathetic and the need to genuinely connect with others. In this interview, you'll learn: How to deal with negative people How to develop empathy in modern life How to question your own beliefs How to stay true to yourself How to handle criticism constructively How to manage stress effectively By understanding the nature of the self, maintaining emotional distance from negativity, and focusing on genuine connections, we can foster a stronger sense of empathy and authenticity in our lives. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 05:31 How to Deal with Negative People? 09:04 Look Behind the Mask 13:26 Getting Attracted to the Wrong People 15:02 Filling Up the Emptiness 17:23 Surprising Characteristics in Humans 19:10 Our Capacity for Empathy 21:31 What’s Your Most Repeated Thought? 22:34 How Quiet the Mind 24:54 Becoming More Aware 30:20 How We Process What We’re Experiencing 33:42 Who Really Are You? 37:44 How People Think About You 41:00 People’s Perception of You 43:46 The Before and After 46:57 Timeless Knowledge in Books 49:58 What Makes You Excited? 53:16 The Second Self 55:57 The Core of Your Reality 59:21 Limited Language 01:01:41 The Limited Circle of Harmony 01:04:49 Different Thoughts About the World 01:11:04 Slowing Down 01:13:21 Robert on Final Five Episode Resources: Robert Greene | Website Robert Greene | Instagram Robert Greene | TikTok Robert Greene | YouTube Robert Greene | Books See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 3:02Speaker 01

  We don't really have a self. The self is a construction of our minds. There actually is nothing there. And that kind of emptiness, egolessness, is enlightenment. It's a beautiful feeling.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  One of the bestselling authors of the last 20 years. Robert Greene.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  If you're dealing with your own weaknesses and your own emptiness inside, you're going to be drawn to people who fill that up. People's perception of you can almost become how you perceive yourself if you're not careful.

• 3:32Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. I've got some huge news to share with you. In the last 90 days, 79.4% of our audience came from viewers and listeners that are not subscribed to this channel. There's research that shows that if you want to create a habit, make it easy to access. By hitting the subscribe button, you're creating a habit of learning how to be happier, healthier, and more healed. This would also mean the absolute world to me and help us make better, bigger, brighter content for you and the world. Subscribe right now.

• 4:16Jay Shetty?

  Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guest is one of your favorites, someone who's been on the show before. You absolutely loved our first episode together, and so I had to have him back. He's also one of my favorite authors, someone that I've been rereading recently, especially when I fell out of love with learning. And I'll tell you about that in a second. Today's guest is Robert Greene, the author of the New York Times bestsellers, The Forty Eight Laws of Power, The Art of Seduction, The Thirty Three Strategies of War, The Fiftieth Law, Mastery, The Laws of Human Nature, and most recently, Of The Daily Laws.

• 4:59Jay Shetty?

  I am so excited to welcome back to the show, Robert Greene. Robert, thank you for being here.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me, Jay. Thanks for that great introduction.

• 5:06Jay Shetty?

  Of course, grateful to have you back in the seat. And as I was just saying to you offline, over Christmas, I spent last year touring. I was on stages. We did nearly forty cities across ninety days. My book had come out. I was really pouring out externally. And whenever that happens to me, I always kind of, after that, get a feeling of, I need to grow again, I need to learn again, I need to nourish myself. And I really believe that last Christmas, The Daily Laws of Power became my daily read. And I have recommended it to so many people. My wife started reading it. My closest friends have started reading it. And it was just such a great book for anyone who's either stuck with reading,

• 5:51Jay Shetty?

  someone who's kind of like not sure what to read, someone who's trying to figure out their direction in life. The Daily Laws of Power is a great starting place, I'd say.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you very much.

• 6:01Jay Shetty?

  And I've always been a fan of your books. And you sent me this beautiful, limited edition version, which I'm getting to show off on the show. But The Forty Eight Laws, what a phenomenal book. So thank you for being such a big part of my learning journey.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  For having me, you're a rock star. But what a tour you've been on. I've never been on a tour like that. That sounds like fun.

• 6:18Jay Shetty?

  It was fun, it was fun. We went to Sydney and Melbourne and Brisbane. We went all over India. I went to Dubai, I went to Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin. It was phenomenal, it was amazing.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Would you consider yourself more of an extrovert or an introvert?

• 6:33Jay Shetty?

  So that's a great question. And I'm gonna let you define the two for me, because you'll probably have some wisdom to share with us. I energize alone.

• 6:43Jay Shetty?

  But I enjoy connecting with small groups of specific people. So I assume I'm overall an introvert, but ninety nine percent of people would say, Jay, you're an extrovert. But if I was in a big group of people, I would find the one person who I share values with to have a deep conversation. I wouldn't be milling around introducing myself to everyone. So if that makes any sense.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  But do you need to be alone? Do you feel?

• 7:06Jay Shetty?

  I crave alone time a lot.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:09Jay Shetty?

  Yes, a lot.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  So you're a mix.

• 7:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  You're a must.

• 7:12Jay Shetty?

  Ambivert, yeah.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:13Jay Shetty?

  If that's what it's called, yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Ambivert, okay.

• 7:16Jay Shetty?

  Exactly.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:17Jay Shetty?

  But I have so many questions for you, Robert, that I want to dive into. And I'm really coming to you with questions that I know a lot of my community and audience repeatedly ask. And I think you're specifically positioned to answer a lot of these. The first one I have is, one of the biggest things I get asked is, Jay, how do I deal with negative people? How do I deal with negative people in my family? How do I deal with negative people in my friend circle? How do I deal with negative people at work? In close intimate circles, I feel a lot of people feel they're dealing with negativity.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it all depends on the details, the kind of negative person you're dealing with. There are several kind of ways of looking at it, some kind of micro and some kind of much larger. The larger picture is, we all have negative traits, we all have dark traits, right? And so you kind of, if you have this idea that it's just humans, human beings are like this. It's like a flower or a rock or a tree, it has its nature. You know, I just accept it. I accept people for who they are and I deal with them on that level. I don't judge them, et cetera.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Now, of course, when you're dealing with negative people, it can be very difficult because negative people like to stir up a lot of drama around you, around them. And that's the kind of power that they get. They like the attention that they get from making people upset from pulling on your emotions, right? So you have to have, you have to have this kind of larger look at them where it's not about me, right? They're dealing with their own issues, their own problems. There's a history behind it. It could be their parents, it could be their family, it could be their spouse, their children, whatever. And they're venting it on me in this particular moment, but it's not personal.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  I tell people, don't take everything so personally, right? But then, you know, so there are all these different levels and it's, it all really depends on the specifics because a lot of people come to me for advice. But a lot of times you're enmeshed with a negative person. Like it's your boss, it's your spouse, et cetera, et cetera. And it's very difficult to do what I'm talking about, right? And so you have to try and get a little bit of distance from them. You have to be able to, to say to yourself, um, they're not me, right? They have their own problems. I'm separate from them. The sense of being separate from them is very liberating, right?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  So they have issues and they're trying to drag me into it and they're trying to drag me down. But I'm not them. I have my own life and I'm not going to get involved. Sometimes you need to have empathy, but sometimes you need to shut that off. And so the best thing in life though is, that's why I say there's just so many angles to approach this from, is if they're like a deep narcissist, and that's probably the most common type of negative person you deal with in the world today, and we all have come across this. The power that you have is to recognize people like that before you get involved with them and to not get involved with them, right? And so they have signs, things that you can pick up in advance.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  People who are toxic, I don't know if we're gonna say toxic and negative are the same here. They don't show it immediately. They're good at deceiving you. They can be very charming. They can be very dramatic. They pull you in with their great stories. They have, sometimes they're even charismatic. A lot of important CEOs in the world, people like Elon Musk. Are raging narcissists. They appear very exciting and you want to get to know them. But you have to recognize that these are people that are probably going to use you. Right? They don't see you as an individual. And the people you associate with were very, um, as, as humans, we're very open to the emotions of other people.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Right? And so the people you associate with have a huge role on who you are and the energy you have. You know, your daily life, et cetera, et cetera. And so you have to be very, very careful who you let into your life. Right? And um, God, Jay, I don't know. There's so many different angles to approach it from.

• 11:44Jay Shetty?

  No, that's a very thoughtful.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  I tell people that don't judge people as far as who are you going to let into your life? Don't be deceived by the appearances. Don't judge people based on their intelligence, on their charm, on whether they're good or bad, et cetera. Judge them on their character, whether they have a weak or a strong character.

• 12:06Jay Shetty?

  What are some of the signals, the signs we can look out for? Because I think what you just said is so true that we naturally get attracted to people's appearance, intelligence, charisma, access. Because we haven't really been trained to view character.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:25Jay Shetty?

  So I remember when I lived in the monastery, the highest quality or character trait that was considered the epitome of internal emotional evolution was humility. And so when you met someone who was humble and you met someone who didn't have false ego, they were considered of high character and we were trained in order to understand that. But in the modern world, that isn't how the material world works. We're almost attracted to people who can come off arrogant and showboaty. And even if we sense we don't like that, we still believe that person has power. And so what are things that we have to look out for?

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Well, also, there are people who appear to be humble, but they're not really humble. There's a lot of people now who feign humility because it's seen as a positive trait.

• 13:18Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  So humans are born actors and you have to kind of look behind the mask. So I tell people, I view it as strong or weak character. A strong character is a person who can take criticism, right? Who can work with other people, right? Who can deal with stressful situations, who can handle responsibility. And if there's something goes wrong, they take, I am to blame for it. They don't look at other people. There's somebody you can rely on. You lean on them and there's something there to lean on. You can rely on them in situations. A weak character is somebody who cannot take criticism. That is probably the number one characteristic. The worst trait, I think, in people and a definite trait of negativity

• 14:01Speaker 01

  is somebody who can't take any kind of criticism, right? They're so defensive. So that means they can get away with anything. They can say anything they want and there's just like a wall, a shell around them, right? So the ability in a work situation, in a relationship, to take criticism and be able to use it constructively is an incredibly useful and powerful trait to me that reveals strong character. How people handle stress is a really good sign of their character. So in a work situation, people are good at faking it and pretending that they're very strong. But when it gets really stressful and there's a lot of pressure on it,

• 14:46Speaker 01

  the mask falls off and they reveal that they can't handle it. They're too weak. They're reacting to everything. They can't get out of the moment. They're so impatient, you know, and fragile. And so the ability to handle stress shows that somebody has something strong inside of them, right? How they handle power, right? So when people are kind of climbing up the ladder in a group or in a job. They generally try and pretend like they're with the group. But once they have power, that all falls off and they can become abusive. And they feel like they can get away with any things that they couldn't get away with before. They treat people below them miserably, et cetera.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  So when people have power, how do they handle it? Are they responsible? Do they suddenly become somebody different? Or do they maintain the character that they had beforehand? Right? What kind of partners do they choose? Do they choose a spouse, a husband, a girlfriend, et cetera? Somebody that they can push around, somebody that's inferior to them so that they can feel better about themselves? How do they look when they're playing like a game or they're in outdoor activities or something that has nothing to do with work? Are they so competitive they have to win at everything? Even when it's like outside of that kind of environment, you know? These are kind of traits that help me sort of judge a person's character.

• 16:14Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and these are often the things that we either ignore or we actually let them kind of fall by the wayside or don't pay enough attention to them. Because we think, oh, no, but they're so smart and they're so this. And I wonder how much of that is also like? What does that say about us? That we often get attracted to the wrong things within people? What does that say about us? Does that make us a strong or weak character? Hey, everyone, it's Jay Shetty and I'm thrilled to announce my podcast tour. For the first time ever, you can see my On Purpose podcast live and in person.

• 16:53Jay Shetty?

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• 17:18Speaker 01

  I know that I tend to be, I tend to get involved with narcissistic people. It's a weakness of mine, right? And maybe it's because of my upbringing and maybe it's because I feel a kind of emptiness inside of me and that their charm and the attention that they pretend to give you is kind of enchanting or casts a spell on you and it draws you in. Yeah, so if you're dealing with your own weaknesses and your own emptiness inside, you're gonna be drawn to people who fill that up. Or you're gonna be drawn to causes and charismatic leaders that pretend to give you a purpose in your life because you don't have a purpose, but they have it for you, kind of thing.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  So, a lot of it has to do, yeah, with ourselves and we're attracted to, we're even attracted to negative people. And there are people who have patterns in their life where they deliberately choose the wrong, the worst kind of person for them, right? And over and over and over again, because at least that makes them feel alive. At least the pain of it, you know, gives them a sense of something's half, something dramatic, and so they deliberately bring on those kind of, that kind of pain. So it's complicated, yeah.

• 18:39Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, when you said that often we feel an emptiness inside and you were saying maybe because of your upbringing, you felt that emptiness inside as well. Have you tried to fill that emptiness or is there another solution?

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Well, to me, it's why I wrote the book Mastery. The way I fill my emptiness and how I've done it since I was a kid is through my work and through my ideas and my thinking and how I'm constantly looking for new thoughts and new ways of looking at the world. So I find that if I don't, if I didn't have...

• 19:24Speaker 01

  My work as kind of, some people think of work as something that you just have to do, right? It's just a way to get money. But for me, it's a way to feel like I'm a human being, that I am who I am. I was destined to write these books. And it gives me, every day I wake up and I know this is what I need to accomplish, et cetera, et cetera. And so, that's why I read so many books. That's why I'm so intrigued by ideas. That's why I'm writing a book right now about a subject that very much captivates me. Because it does feel that inner kind of emptiness.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  But on the other hand, as someone who meditates and practices a form of Zen meditation, there is a purpose to emptiness, right? It's not necessarily good to be always having to fill things up in your brain, like you're just pouring food into your system. You know, there is something actually kind of intrinsically beautiful about the idea that there is emptiness, that I don't really have a self, that there is actually not, that there is no such thing as a mind, actually. It's an illusion that we create, right? It's something through words that we have.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  So that sense of emptiness, that, you know, I don't have an ego or that I'm confronting the world and I'm just hearing and seeing things as they are, is actually a beautiful thing. So you have to, I have to kind of struggle against this idea of always having to fill myself up.

• 21:01Jay Shetty?

  What's something, you were saying you like observing humans and humanity. What's something that you've observed about humans over time that surprised you?

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Well, nothing really surprises me. Because I read a lot of history and I see that things just keep repeating over and over and over again. I know though, since I had my stroke and since I've physically weak and there are things I can't do anymore.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  I've actually noticed that people respond to me differently, and it's actually very positive. So sometimes I can be very negative about people. That's kind of my inclination. That's how my mind tends to work, which is not necessarily a good thing. We all have these attitudes that make us look at the world a certain way. I tend to have a negative bent towards human nature. But I must say, people have been very, very kind to me since I've had my stroke. And it's sad that you have to have an accident like that to be able to perceive it. But I've seen another side where everyone wants to help me. They kind of empathize with the fact that I'm a little bit helpless in these situations.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  And it's also made me kind of feel differently about other people who have disabilities or things that they can't help in their lives. But the sense of I'm a little bit helpless and people are really eager to try and help me actually is something that has kind of surprised me in a way.

• 22:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I liked what you said there, that it's sad that someone has to go through something for us to then show that sides of ourselves, which means that it's always there. It means that it exists inherently within us.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:48Jay Shetty?

  Do you think it's because we... Why do you think that is? Why do you think that is? That if it's inherently there, we don't display it at all times to all people?

• 22:57Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, we're all born with a capacity for empathy. It's something that interests me a lot because the feeling that I'm connecting very deeply to another person, let's say my wife, et cetera, is a very overpowering emotion. It gets me out of myself, and I'm seeing the world through her eyes as opposed to me always projecting myself onto her. It's a very moving experience. And sometimes you go to a movie and you find yourself getting inside the characters. You're getting outside of yourself and you're feeling this empathy for them. You're identifying with them.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  These are all very powerful emotions, right? And we all have the capacity for that. But the world we live in is actually machinery to deaden those emotions, that sense of empathy, right? It's just put so much emphasis on ourselves, on our individuality, on who we are, our needs, you know, our, the attention that we want, that we deserve. We're so focused on ourselves that that natural feeling of wanting to get inside of another person. And you know, it's very strange, Jay, because if you think about it, our inner lives are actually quite boring. The same thoughts repeat over and over and over again.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  The same emotions, the same preoccupations, the same anxieties. And other people, they're so different. They have their own worlds, right? They're like, it's like traveling to another country. So we should actually be much more oriented towards other people. We should have a natural interest in their world because it takes us out of ourselves. It's like therapy. But it's been deadened by so many things in our world, by social media, by the pressures we're under, by just modern lifestyle. And so that empathetic muscle that everybody has is kind of atrophying. And yet there'll be moments where it kind of sparks to life.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  And you feel like, God, I want that, I want more of that in my life, more of that in my world. How do I get it?

• 25:09Jay Shetty?

  What would you say is your most repeated thought on a daily basis?

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Like, um, what do I need to do today? What's on my schedule? You know, so like I'm meditating in the morning. And I'm trying to empty my mind and I'm going into what's known as a koan, right? And then these thoughts keep bubbling up and they're so annoying. And it makes you aware of what, of the machinery of your own mind. And so to answer your question, it's always like, oh, did you remember that you have to call this person this afternoon? Did you remember that you have to change that reservation? Do you remember that you have to do this, that, the scheduling things? So unimportant, so trivial, where I'm trying to open my mind up to something vast and important.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  It's little things like scheduling and stuff like that. And there'll be other thoughts that will be repeating, you know? Like if I saw a movie from it, images will keep popping up from that and such. It makes you aware that you're not in control of your own mind, right?

• 26:12Jay Shetty?

  How have you found over time with meditation and other practices? What have you used in order to start quietening, emptying, whatever the right word is for you, releasing those thoughts so that you can connect with the vastness, be creative or self-express?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Wow, it's, it's not easy and it's an ongoing process. And I could say I'm maybe 10% of the way where I'd like to be. But first of all, you recognize, you go through a thing where a thought pops up and it's like, why am I thinking about that? I don't like it. You, you realize that it's just a thought. And what is a thought? And I know we're getting really weird and metaphysical here.

• 26:54Jay Shetty?

  I like it.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  But it's not, it's, it's not real. It's a phantom, right? It has no reality. Reality is your body, the present moment, the birds outside, the sky, where you are sitting, the fact that you're alive, that your blood is pumping. These are real, but that thought in your mind is a shadow. It's a phantom. It doesn't exist. It has no reality. And so I go through this process where

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Don't engage with it. And it's really weird because then my mind plays tricks on me and it pulls up a thought. It's definitely going to engage me. Right? Because it wants that. It's like a sugar rush. And so I go, okay, no, I'm not going to engage with it. And it made me realize as I went through that process that this is what social media is based on. Social media has mirrored the human brain on a large scale. We have thoughts that are designed to grab our emotions and make us.

• 27:55Jay Shetty?

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• 29:16Jay Shetty?

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• 29:46Speaker 01

  Think about them repetitively over and over again, compulsively, right? And there's probably a purpose behind that. But social media is actually a genius at that. Picking up, putting up things up there, they're going to engage our emotions. So we have to pay attention. So I always try and every time that happens, I withdraw and I say, it's just a thought. It's not real. It's not who I am. This is a very important part of meditation. Your thoughts are not who you are. They're a separate part of yourself. You are something different from your own thoughts. I don't know if that means anything to you.

• 30:23Jay Shetty?

  It does, it does, definitely. And while we are not our thoughts and we are not our mind, our thoughts become our reality. We find that a repetitive thought turns into a habit that turns into a pattern that turns into an action, becomes our reality. For example, I am a unorganized lazy individual. Usually translates into, oh, I forgot to send that. It didn't happen because now it's a belief that's built up. And so it's so fascinating that something that's so not real becomes so real. And, and I've been really into seeing how thought editing is so useful as an activity and an exercise.

• 31:08Jay Shetty?

  Because I've found so many of my thoughts become my beliefs that become my life. And I think a lot of people don't realize, because they don't realize that their thoughts are like clothes that you can change.

• 31:23Jay Shetty?

  We do believe that our thoughts are real and our reality.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:27Jay Shetty?

  And whatever we're hearing in our head is exactly what is.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:30Jay Shetty?

  And we don't realize that, oh, it's like looking in your wardrobe and saying, I don't like the color green anymore, I'm gonna change it for blue.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:36Jay Shetty?

  It's as simple as that.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Well, there was a, uh, something I read recently, um, in, in one of the Buddhist books that I like to read, that said, our minds are basically topsy-turvy, they're upside down. So, the reality is, we don't rea-, I mean, I don't want to get too deep into this, but we don't really have a self. The self is a construction of our minds. There actually is nothing there. And that kind of emptiness, that egolessness, is enlightenment, it's a beautiful feeling. And maybe in your life, you've touched upon it briefly, I know I've touched upon it briefly. It's not the reality I have every day. But, that's the rea-, that's real.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  And what's not real are the thoughts, but everything is turned upside down in our worlds. And so, these delusionary thoughts about, of, about people, about who I am, about my habits, et cetera, they become our reality when it's exactly the opposite. But you have to be able to, to be aware of that. And so, you know, meditation is all about being aware of, is becoming aware of these things, because we walk around like automatons. You know, I, I'm very into this writer named Gurdjieff, I don't know if you've ever heard of Gurdjieff?

• 32:53Jay Shetty?

  No, I haven't.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  He was this, um, he's basically from Armenia, he was, at the beginning of the 20th century. He was this man who was very interested in, in mysticism. And he traveled throughout Asia, trying to find the, the, uh, the essence of all the different esoteric philosophies. And he created his own philosophy. And it's very interesting, very exciting stuff. He wrote a book called, In Search of the Miraculous, that I highly recommend people. And it's not woo-woo stuff, he was a very, very practical man, he puts it in very practical terms. But his idea is that we walk around asleep.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  We're on automatic pilot constantly. We're not really aware that we're breathing, that we're existing. We're not aware where our thoughts come from. We're not aware of how our body moves, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so it's a process of slowly becoming aware of these kinds of things. That is really kind of, I've been doing this fourteen, fifteen years now. And it's really, really kind of changed the course of my life, I have to say.

• 33:59Jay Shetty?

  Hmm, yeah, I love that. And I can't wait to read that book now. And I couldn't agree more. I feel we're so disconnected from our mind and body that we constantly believe that someone outside of ourself has the answer for how we feel. And while that may be true when you're seeing a doctor or a dentist or something of that professional nature, we don't really know how our body's been feeling for weeks or months until it crashes. And then we realize that we haven't paid enough attention to X or Y or Z. Or a relationship in the same way has to end in order for us to realize that it had lost investment and energy or whatever it may be.

• 34:44Jay Shetty?

  And we're so far away from the self, or at least this version of the self, that, yeah, we're not really aware. I love what you just said about the idea of how conscious are we of the fact that we're breathing, we're here, we're present, we're together, versus how much are we living up here?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:01Jay Shetty?

  And, and it's really interesting, isn't it? Because there's almost two realities that we're always dealing. And if we're getting too heady, I'm happy to move away from it. But it's, it's almost like I've been thinking a lot about how, in one sense, what's out here is real. And in one sense, what here isn't. And at the same time, actually, what's going on here is the real because it defines how I interact with everything else. And, and it can help me be a better filter, a better chooser, selector of the people I'm around and the places I visit.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  So you say you have to kind of use the mind to be able to become present? It's a process?

• 35:39Jay Shetty?

  I would say I'm alluding to that in discovery, not in pushing it, if that makes sense.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it makes sense to me. Yeah, I agree with that, definitely.

• 35:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I, I've been reflecting a lot recently about how.

• 35:54Jay Shetty?

  Most of what's happening is in the invisible world in that.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  That's very interesting. Tell me more about that.

• 35:59Jay Shetty?

  So I've just been, I was thinking that in, in one sense, you have reality externally, the visible world, but how I make sense of that visible world is all in the invisible space. And ultimately, how I make sense of it is the reality that I experience, regardless of what's happening around me, which is why we realize that people who, well, we all are telling ourselves stories and narratives all day long, but how we're processing what we're experiencing is our reality as opposed to the event, or what someone said, or social media, as you gave an example, like, I can either sit here and say, like, I know that

• 36:44Jay Shetty?

  when I wake up in the morning and I start scrolling on social media, my mind is now moving 10 times, 100 times faster than if I don't do that. And I know that brushing my teeth and showering is a much more peaceful process if I haven't looked at my phone than if I do.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:02Jay Shetty?

  And so that choice is being made in the invisible world. And the visible world is simply something I'm interacting with and taking from or being affected by.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Well, so we mostly live in, I mean, things that are invisible.

• 37:18Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Right? Symbols, et cetera.

• 37:21Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Language is, is, is a symbol. It's not reality. And so, um, things like government and, and social behavior, there are rules and codes that we abide by, but they're not visible. They're invisible, right? Yeah, definitely. And, and we're not aware of that.

• 37:39Jay Shetty?

  And so we're trying to raise our awareness of the invisible world. I'm always trying to raise my awareness of. Why do I process this this way? Where does this come from? Where's this idea taking root?

• 37:51Speaker 01

  It's a very, yeah, it's a very interesting process to go through.

• 37:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's hard. It's like, yeah, it's not clear. It's not, it's not like a here's the step by step process. It's just something I've been engaging with a lot.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  I like to try and go through a thing where I question all of my beliefs and things of why? Where does that come from? Why do I believe that? Why has that become something that's so hardened into my brain? I believe that about myself and who I am, about other people. I continually try to challenge it and look at what might be the source of it. And then maybe say, it could be the opposite, right? And actually, it can be, it can lead to a lot of problems because it's like my mind is always swimming and I'm never really think anything is certain. I'm always, you know, seeing the opposite side of it. But I think it's, in the end, it's a very healthy process.

• 38:42Jay Shetty?

  How do you, I, I love, I love where we're going because it kind of comes back to your same point. Early, sorry, your earlier point about how someone of strong character knows how to take criticism, which means they know how to deal with the opposite of what they think or feel. And so this idea that you're sharing now that it's healthy to be able to question, to evaluate, to assess our beliefs and values. But like you said, it's one of the hardest things to do because you get into a space of uncertainty. You question your identity, you lose a sense of direction. How do we question ourselves without losing ourselves? And actually realize that that is the process of discovering and building ourselves?

• 39:21Speaker 01

  You know, like, who, who really are you in the end? You know, what, what, what constitutes you, the essence of you? What were you meant to accomplish in this world, right? Your sense of purpose, you know, to use the title of your show. What is it that makes you an individual, makes you unique? You alone are meant to accomplish in life? Well, it's not given. We don't know it. And a lot of people really, really struggle with trying to figure that out, right? Because they've been programmed by their parents, by their siblings, by the culture, by their teachers, to say, this is who you are, this is what you should believe in. This is what you were meant to accomplish in life. This is what's cool and what's not cool. Okay?

• 40:06Speaker 01

  And so you have to question yourself. You have to say, Is this really who I am? Do I really, am I really interested in this subject? Am I really interested in this kind of person? In getting in a relationship with this kind of person? And so question yourself on that level. You're getting at a deeper and deeper core of maybe who you are at essence. You're cutting away all of the social stuff that's been foisted upon you, that it has nothing to do with you, right? So in some ways, you're kind of a mystery to yourself and you're sort of trying to solve that puzzle. And you have to ask these questions. Is this something I'm actually really interested in? Is this an intrinsically important thing to me? Or is it something that's in the culture?

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Or something that other people have told me? And questioning that over and over and over again is not to lead you into this abyss where there's nothing real, it's to get you closer to who you are, to what really matters, to what that essence of you is, to what you're meant to accomplish in life. And once you reach that, that inner kind of gold, then you have, you have a degree of certainty. So I know, I knew from a very young age that I wanted to be a writer, right? I had a struggle to figure out what kind of writing I wanted. But knowing that that's who I am, probably about at the age of eight, it allowed me to go, I'm not interested in that. I don't want to do that. This isn't important. Why am I following this career path?

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Why am I wasting my time here? And then, so knowing that kind of core, you don't have to keep questioning yourself. So I'm never going to question myself, why are you a writer? Why are you writing books? You should have been a pop star. You should have been a rock singer. You should have written poetry. You should have been a lawyer. No, I'll never go there because I have that, that firm ground beneath me. And that's what your questioning is supposed to lead to, get to the essence of who you are. And once you're there, you have a degree of certainty in your life.

• 42:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it does, it does. And I feel like a big challenge, something that I've been thinking a lot about lately is, a big challenge of where that comes from is because we care so much about what people think and we're scared of being an unsuccessful version of ourselves.

• 42:27Jay Shetty?

  Because we'd rather be a successful version of what someone else wants us to be.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:32Jay Shetty?

  And so we're scared of being an unsuccessful writer if we could be a successful accountant. We're scared of being an unsuccessful artist because we'd rather be a successful tech person, whatever else it may be, fill in your blank. And because what we think people think of us has such a stronghold on us that we can't pivot to our passions, we can't maneuver to our purpose, we can't accept that maybe I'm not what this person wants me to be. And I've been spending a lot of time in this to try and figure out, and I'll, and we'll, let's, let's dive into it from different perspectives.

• 43:12Jay Shetty?

  But I guess, how much, Robert, do you care what people think of you? And how have you made sense of that over your time? As someone who obviously writes, that a lot of people enjoy your reading, people may disagree with you, they may agree with you, people, as you said, debate, discuss. But how have you made sense of that? And what's been your process of dealing with how you think people think about you?

• 43:37Speaker 01

  This is how people think about me who know me personally. And it's how people think about me in the social realm who don't know me personally and who have an idea of who I am, which is often very different from their reality. But naturally, as a human being, I care that people understand that I'm, I'm a certain way, that I have a certain character, that I actually love jokes and silly bathroom humor and that, you know, I like stupid movies and that I'm not always, you know, reading heavy philosophy, you know? My wife can tell you all about this childish side of my personality. So, you know, it's always been important to me to feel kind of authentic and sincere.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  And I've always hated, and it's probably why I wrote The Forty Eight Laws of Power. I hate. People who are pretending to be something that they're not, deeply, deeply wounds me and I don't know why. I don't know why it's been like this since I was a child. Maybe I suspected that in my parents, the kind of falseness that upsets me deeply. And so I wrote the Forty Eight Laws of Power because I felt people are such hypocrites. They pretend that they're not interested in power, but that's all they're interested in, right? They wear this front like, oh, I just want to help people. I just want to make movies and culture and art. No, you're interested in power. So it's always been deeply important to me to kind of reveal what's really going on in someone and to sort of feel that way about myself.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  So when I don't feel like I'm myself, when I feel like I'm faking it, and sometimes, to be honest with you, Jay, being a kind of quote unquote self-help guru, it feels false. It doesn't feel like who I am. I feel like a bit of an imposter. That's not really what I wanted to be.

• 45:25Jay Shetty?

  Can relate to that.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  I just wanted to write books. I love ideas. I love thoughts. I love expanding my consciousness, right? So the feeling that I'm not being who I am and that other people are kind of glomming onto that is upsetting to me.

• 45:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  I don't know if I'm answering your question.

• 45:44Jay Shetty?

  Oh, no, that's, I mean, that's resonating so deeply with me. I think it's so interesting, isn't it? How your self-perception is so different from people's projection onto you. And so I can identify with that. I do what I do because I'm just sharing what I love. So I love meditation. I love wisdom books. I love traditions. I love ancient wisdom and modern science and seeing the parallels between the two. And I just love talking about that and sharing that.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:21Jay Shetty?

  And I don't think I've ever thought of myself as a guru or a guide or a... Or that kind of individual. But we in society, if someone shares or teaches or gives insight or advice, we box them or bucket them as that's the same as you.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:41Jay Shetty?

  We'd go in the same bucket, even though we kind of do similar things, but very different things. And we probably have some similar interests and some different interests. And it's interesting how there isn't a space. Like I often say to people, I'm just trying to be everyone's spiritual friend. Like, that's my goal. Like, I'm that guy who's introducing my friends to cool things that they may not have come across, whether it's eastern spirituality or wisdom, or whatever it may be. Like, I'm that guy and that's all I want to be. I don't want to be anything else.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:11Jay Shetty?

  But it's hard when you almost get put on a pedestal, even though you didn't ask for that or didn't want that.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Well, people's perception of you can almost become what, how you perceive yourself if you're not careful.

• 47:24Jay Shetty?

  For sure.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  You know? And so, um, that's why I keep coming back to myself and going, is that really who I am?

• 47:32Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  I don't think so, Robert, you know? And also, I actually, um, I'm a flawed individual, I'm a flawed human being. I have, you know, blind spots in my nature. I have compulsions that I wish I didn't have. And I don't like this idea that people think I'm this powerful person who's figured everything out. Cause I'm not, I have, that's why, you know, I write the, wrote the book, The Laws of Human Nature. It was because I understand that I shared the same flaws, that I have narcissistic tendencies, that I too can feel envy, that I have moments of grandiosity.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  So I'm not comfortable with the idea like that I'm this, somebody that I'm not, that the perception of me is. But that's what happens to a lot of successful, famous people. They become trapped in what

• 48:22Jay Shetty?

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• 49:08Jay Shetty?

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• 49:49Jay Shetty?

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• 50:53Speaker 01

  Other people are thinking about them, they become trapped in that image. And I honestly think, I could be way off base, but I'm thinking of somebody like Anthony Bourdain, who committed suicide. I think he was burdened and weighed down so much by how people thought of himself. And it wasn't who he was, and it kind of made him feel deeply uncomfortable. And I'm sure there were many other issues going on. But a lot of times, it can make you uncomfortable in your own skin, the way people perceive you. And it can lead to deep feelings of depression and a loss of who you are.

• 51:28Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I could write a new book called The Flaws of Human Nature. It's like.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Thank you. That's what the book is.

• 51:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  It's the eighteen dark corners of human nature. But yeah, that's a good idea.

• 51:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, no, it's just, you know, a thought of like, it is true. It's, there's a seeking of perfection. And there's a sense that we've created in the world of before and after. In the sense that if you look at like a workout program, and there's nothing wrong with this because it makes sense. But there's a before picture and there's an after picture. And if someone's wealthy, it's like they were poor and now they're rich. And everything's a linear before and after journey. And what we're talking about, and I fully agree with you on this, is that actually all of my challenges are cyclical. And they're different. So it's not that I never feel envy anymore.

• 52:25Jay Shetty?

  It's that I feel it differently to how I felt it 10 years ago. And hopefully I'm a bit better at dealing with it and understanding it and engaging with it than I was 10 years ago. But it's not that it doesn't affect me anymore.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 52:40Jay Shetty?

  And same with spiraling thoughts. It's not that I don't have anxious or negative thoughts anymore because I'm enlightened. I still have those thoughts, I just deal with them better than I did 10 years ago. And I probably have more tools to help me engage with them.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  That's true, that's very.

• 52:56Jay Shetty?

  And I think that cyclical nature is.

• 53:00Jay Shetty?

  A wonderful thing to accept as an individual and as someone who's learning, because you then don't fool yourself to think, oh, there will be one day where I will no longer have a negative or anxious thought like Jay and Robert. Like, you know, they probably never have it. It's like, well, yeah, you probably have less, but it's not that I never have them.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 53:19Jay Shetty?

  Uh, right?

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:20Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And so, so that kind of idea of this before and after, I think, is what confuses so many people because it feels like, oh, there is a point at which I never have to go back to being this version of myself.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Well, that life isn't like that. You know, it's weird sometimes because before the forty-eight laws of power came out, I was just this nobody living in a two, one-bedroom apartment in Santa Monica, rent-controlled, you know, never really made any money, never really had any success in life. And I was constantly giving people advice, but nobody would listen to me because I hadn't written the book. And suddenly the book comes out and I'm supposed to be a different person. You know, it's very strange, but I'm actually the same person that I was when I was living in that miserable one-bedroom apartment, you know, and giving out my advice that nobody listened to. Now people listen to it, but the only difference is because suddenly I have this credential, which is very strange.

• 54:17Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I can relate to that in so many ways. I was, I, I used to be mentoring, coaching people in my community. I would do these little events in London, ten, eleven years ago now, where like five people would show up and, and it was, you know, I was, I was just doing it. I would speak at universities for free for years. Like I was, it was, you know, it's been such a big part of my life to just do this. I've always wanted to be someone who's learning and sharing. That's what I enjoy. I enjoy learning and I enjoy sharing. And I enjoy synthesizing and making things simple and practical for other people. That's, that's what I get my joy from. And I was always inspired by two quotes.

• 55:01Jay Shetty?

  One is Ivan Pavlov, where he said, if you want a new idea, read an old book. And so that's always been something that my work has been inspired by. It's always based on ideas that seem timeless, but they're, and, and old.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Very beautiful, yeah.

• 55:15Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And then there's another thought from Einstein, which is another part of what inspires my work, which is if you can't explain something simply, you don't understand it well enough. And so these were the two kind of tenets that what I enjoy doing in the world. And again, I don't think they're magnificent, miraculous or brilliant. They're just what I'm meant to do. And there's such a beautiful significance and insignificance in that very understanding. Like it's really significant building because I'm like, I know what I have to do. And it's really insignificant because I'm like, it's just what I have to do. It's, it's not the best or the worst, or it's not comparative.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:57Jay Shetty?

  And I think that's how, when you're talking in the daily laws of power, that's, that's kind of how, in different words, how you describe like your life's, you know, your life's gift, your life's work, your life's path.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  I've always liked old books myself. So, you know, I read a lot of books of philosophy, et cetera, history. But I also read books of famous Zen classics. The 20th century books, I'm not so sure, but I'd read like something from the 11th century where the thought process is so different, but it's timeless, it's human. Man, it is so beautiful. It so sparks these ideas that he, or this writer, this thinker, was dealing with the same things now, a thousand years later, but they still strike a truth. But it's in this language that's very weird and primitive and barbaric. I don't know why that excites me so much.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  It's the same idea that a modern writer might write, but put in the words of somebody a thousand years ago, it suddenly touches me.

• 56:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Can you explain that, Jay?

• 57:00Jay Shetty?

  I mean, I don't know if I can, apart from the fact that you've reincarnated and you had some connection to it, but can I explain it? I can't explain it, but I can, I can reflect on it. I mean, I find that there's a part of it that that writer or creator may never have known if anyone would ever read it.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:21Jay Shetty?

  And so that privacy and that secrecy and that intimacy with their work, not knowing that it would ever be viewed, seen, read, broadcasted.

• 57:35Jay Shetty?

  That has some power to it.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, there's a humility to that. Whereas now people write, we're expecting all these people to be reading it. We do it for the attention.

• 57:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  It was much different back then. Yeah, that's very interesting. Never thought of that.

• 57:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I've definitely found that.

• 57:52Jay Shetty?

  I try and re, yeah, I try and sit with ideas for longer now and try and kind of, I'd love to know your process for that. How have you managed that since that moment of where you became quote unquote, successful because externally because of 48 Laws? How did that change your creative process? How did you hold on to the roots of this kind of thinking?

• 58:14Speaker 01

  So after the 48 Laws of Power came out and it was successful, I was at a turning point in my life. And it's a turning point that a lot of people I think have faced was, do I just continue redoing the 48 Laws of Power? It was successful, it worked well. Why don't I just write the 48 Laws of Power, Part Two? It'll bring in money, it'll bring in attention. I'll just riff off what I wrote there. And something about me was not comfortable with that. It seemed cheap, it seemed easy, and it seemed lazy. And I know myself that if I'm not challenged by something different, I grow bored. So I have to write something that feels like there's energy behind it.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  There's anger, there's love, there's something powerful behind it. I have to feel it or it won't be in the words. So if I'm just doing the 48 Laws of Power, Part Two, it won't be there, it'll have an emptiness. And damn it, a lot of artists and writers fall into that trap. And it's why their books kind of have this sort of hollow ring to them. Right? They're just going through the motions, just repeating what worked before. And I can't stand that feeling. I have to feel like. I'm off into a new land with this new book. So each book has to represent a challenge, right? And so the one I'm writing now is completely different from all seven of the other books.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  And it's an incredible challenge, but it makes me excited about every day because I know I cannot repeat the same kind of books over and over and over again. My soul becomes dead and I have to feel alive with each project. Am I answering your, I keep feeling like I'm not answering your question.

• 59:54Jay Shetty?

  You are, you totally answered my question. I'm loving these personal answers. No, no, I, I can resonate very deeply with that as well. I always try and write about something that I'm working through or struggling with, whether it's personal, whether it's with clients, whether it's with someone in my life, friends, family, like it feels alive. It needs to feel alive.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:12Jay Shetty?

  I can't write from a point of theory or knowing.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:15Jay Shetty?

  Like the book has to be a discovery.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:00:18Jay Shetty?

  And I've only just started my journey. I've only written two books, but as I'm hearing you, I'm, I'm happy to, that I feel that I'm thinking about it in a healthy way.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:28Jay Shetty?

  Because, yeah, I was, I was about to write my third book and the topic everyone wanted was so predictable and expected and it made sense. And I was like, I don't want to write about something that makes sense. Like that's boring. Like it's like, I want to write about something that feels like alive in my life and electric. It makes me, I'm like, now that I've chosen, and I will tell this to you later, but I've chosen my next topic and I've just been like writing notes about it. I'm reading about it. I'm seeing connections everywhere.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  That means it's going to be a great book.

• 1:00:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it just, it feels, I mean, it's harder. It's harder because you don't know. So you're spending more time, like we said earlier, you're spending more time with emptiness.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:05Jay Shetty?

  Because there's a sense of, well, I don't know which direction this book's going to go in.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Jay Shetty?

  So it's, it's that comfortable with discomfort and uncertainty.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Jay Shetty?

  But there's a joy in that.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much so.

• 1:01:17Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. When you're, when you're discovering your process through a book or, or work, how have you learned to become comfortable in the discomfort of creativity in that?

• 1:01:29Jay Shetty?

  Like you don't know where the path's gonna take you, you don't know if it's going to land or not, you, you don't have it, like, how are you grappling with that process of what we're discussing?

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Well, it's very strange, because I'm dealing with it right this very moment. I'm writing something that's driving me crazy. And it's this, and the very subject I'm writing about is about what I'm going through. So I'm writing it, this is in my book on the sublime, and I'm writing about the concept of the daemon, are you familiar with that?

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  It's the idea, it's an ancient Greek idea, but it's in many other cultures, that we have a second self, that there's something, there's a voice inside of us that is guiding us to something higher or better, but it can also lead us to something lower and worse, can be demonic, which is where the word comes from, or it could be something, and Socrates had his daemon, there was a voice inside of him, and it said, it always just said, this is the right way to go, or this is the wrong way to go, nothing more than that, right? And so when I'm writing, it doesn't feel right, and it's driving me crazy, and I'm doing through this right now, it doesn't feel right, it doesn't resonate, it's not truth, it's not real, you gotta start over, you gotta do it again, and the back of my

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  mind, I'm thinking, God, I've lost it, I'm getting old, and I just don't have my mojo anymore. But then I realize, I've gone through this like eighty-five times, every single book, it'll come to you, it'll come back, it isn't right because it doesn't feel right, it doesn't resonate, it doesn't have a reality to it. So I have to go through this process, where I write something, and it excites me, and it interests me, and it just flows out of me, as opposed to like, I have to pull every word out. And so I learned to trust myself that eventually I'll figure it out, but each time I hit that wall, I go, this is it, Robert, you're finished, the book isn't gonna come out, you're done, the wells are dry, you know?

• 1:03:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's so interesting, I feel like that is every creative's journey, like, it has to go through that, the wells are dry, as you just said, that kind of experience of, that's it, it's over, there's nothing else coming out now, you know, and, and it's almost like, we, as, as we know, like, the cliche of like, it's on the other side of that feeling.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Jay Shetty?

  But it's, but it's true, there, there is a sense of When everything is just not making sense. How have you learned to sense whether something feels true to you? Because it obviously felt true to someone. How do you decipher between, oh, this feels true. It feels real to me, even if people don't agree with it.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Because it just feels that way.

• 1:04:11Jay Shetty?

  It's purely just a feeling.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  First of all, it like, I'm always trying to get at what's real and not at what's theoretical. I have a real dislike of abstraction for its own sake. Right? It feels like it's a way of alluding something. It's an evasion. I want to get at the core and the reality of what I'm trying to write about. And so when I get it, I feel it and I know that I've done that. And I have the reader in my mind and I know the reader can connect to it. It's going to have a personal appeal. Whereas I have a tendency to be abstract and professorial and theoretical. I cross all of that out. If you saw my notebooks, 95% of it's crossed out.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  And I don't let the public ever see that side of me because I don't like it. I want my books to feel like I'm hitting something that's actually truthful and real, that people don't like to talk about kind of thing. You know? So right now I'm writing about what is our self? What is the sense of self that we have in our world? It's a very limited idea of the self. We have a very limited idea of our consciousness. We have a very limited idea of what it means to be a human being in the 21st century. We're actually much more immense and much more interesting than we think we are. We have these positive.

• 1:05:35Jay Shetty?

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• 1:05:48Jay Shetty?

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• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Possibilities, these connections, because we're a part of something incredibly vast. And to have consciousness is absolutely an astounding thing. Right? So I want to sort of expand what you, the reader, thinks of who you are, what yourself is. It's much larger than you imagine. But I have to convey that in language that feels right to me, that feels authentic, that feels like everybody in Africa, in China, in India, in Idaho is gonna be able to relate to it, you know?

• 1:07:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, no, no, for sure. And that's, I think that's what I was alluding to with that invisible world point of like how that's what we don't see. Like, there's so much to ourself that we don't see, that we're fully unaware of, that we don't have, we don't realize we have access to.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:59Jay Shetty?

  And, yeah, finding the right terminology, I find to be such a... There's, there's one word that I love, which is a bit more ethereal, but... I guess an astronomer could find some beauty in it, but there's a term in the Vedic literature called Antar Akash, which means inner sky.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Say it again.

• 1:08:19Jay Shetty?

  Antar Akash. Antar means inner and Akash means sky.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Inner sky?

• 1:08:24Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, inner sky.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 1:08:25Jay Shetty?

  And it's this idea of how, you know, we're so fascinated by outer space, but there's that same inner sky that exists. So just that, like the galaxy and the planetary systems and everything else that exists internally too.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Oh, after.

• 1:08:40Jay Shetty?

  But there has to be a, just as we have to go and do space exploration.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:45Jay Shetty?

  You could do the same internally.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:08:47Jay Shetty?

  And you discover so much.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  That's exactly what I'm writing about. That's very interesting.

• 1:08:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's fascinating. And so, yeah, I find language as well. I find vocabulary so needed. And I feel like I grew up with a smart vocabulary, but not the biggest. And I feel reading, of course, expands that. And especially when you read history and other books. And I've found that it's, language is just so powerful. And I worry that social media exposes us to such limited language that the brain and the mind and the consciousness doesn't have the opportunity to be expansive, because the words don't allow for it. If we're all reading the same memes and the same trends and the same hashtags, and it kind of just creates this very, very limited space of consciousness.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Well, that's why I like looking at other languages. I speak several other languages and I'm constantly learning them. And right now, I'm reading a lot about an African culture called the Akon in West Africa, in Ghana. And their concepts of the soul, the spirit and the body. And they have a word in there called Sun Sum. And we translated to spirit. But then I'm reading the African philosophers who actually know that word and they go, it's not, it's not the same as the word spirit. And then they go on to describe it. And that one word contains all of these other worlds that are so weird and interesting that the word spirit in English does not convey, right?

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  You know? And other languages have that sense. And so, language can have that possibility where it opens up, it's not just this you know, this one track meaning. It has other valences, other possibilities to it, right?

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, we're kind of deadening our language in a way. And, you know, if you study like other cultures, you know, Eskimos had like a thousand words for for snow, and we have one word, you know. Russians have like forty words for the color blue, and we have one word kind of thing. Our as the language gets smaller and smaller and more uniform, our thoughts become more and more limited in uniform. So to know here a word like inner sky, it opens up all these other ideas in your mind. Whereas we don't have a word like that in English, you know.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  And and then, because I'm I'm doing things for Zen, Japanese language is so rich with things that we can't possibly even begin to express in English, you know. So, yeah.

• 1:11:27Jay Shetty?

  What what have been other ways of people opening up their minds? This has been something, one of my favorite things to do. I remember reading a quote from Robin Sharma years ago that said, um, ordinary people have big TVs, extraordinary people have big libraries.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:11:44Jay Shetty?

  And and it was one of those, you know, little dreams I had that was like, one day I have a home, I'm gonna have a big library. And and that was one of my most favorite things to kind of put together when I when I moved here. And I started spending more time in when I would travel, I've always collected books. I've always and and I started also collecting, expanding my audio library. I realized as I grew, when I was growing up, we listened to a very limited form of music in my home. And even as growing up as a teenager, I listened to like one genre of music.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  What was that?

• 1:12:19Jay Shetty?

  Uh, rap and hip hop, like that was. And again, I love rap and hip hop. I love rap and hip hop history. It's super cool. I have no issues with it. I just think that my audio library was so limited in my teens. That now that I'm in my thirties, I'm now listening, I'm trying to listen to so many random different things, which again inspire different thoughts, different feelings, different emotions. And so I've realized that vocabulary was one thing. Audio has been another thing. What are other things that you've discovered that help open up that consciousness in mind? Because as we both keep referring to, social media technology is almost making us more limited, more singular, more one dimensional.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Well, as I said, it's something I'm writing about right now. So music and the audible stuff is very, very interesting and very exciting. So this is new phenomenon where musicologists have been able to recreate music from eras that we never could listen to before. So I was writing at one point about a festival in ancient Greece. And to put me in the mood, I wanted to hear ancient Greek music. Well, that doesn't exist. I mean, there are recordings of it, but sure enough, there are. And the rhythms and the sound is so weird and alien that it makes,

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  it, music captures the spirit of a time, right? So if we're only hearing these same melodies, you hear cars going by with that same kind of pop song. It's such a limited circle of harmony, such a limited circle of what music can be. But when you open up to African music, to music from ancient Babylonia to Greece, to music in South America, other rhythms, other poetry in music and sounds. It's mind blowing. It's interesting. So that's what I'm saying, that the human animal is much more interesting than we think it is. Reading about ancient cultures is a very mind expansive project you can go on.

• 1:14:24Jay Shetty?

  And any books you'd recommend in that regard?

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  You know what's so exciting now is they have these books called The Daily Life in, The Daily Life in Ancient Babylon, The Daily Life in, I forget which city in India, The Daily Life in Ancient Greece, etc. And you get a feel for not just the grand philosophical issues, but how people ate, what their houses were like. And so, so I was writing, I just wrote a chapter about our relationship to time and history. And I was trying to take the reader in my new book, I'm giving them exercises. And I'm saying, try to imagine yourself in a world a thousand years ago, and you walk out your front door.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  There's no mechanical sounds, there's no airplanes, there's no cars, there's no machines. It's just birds, maybe a saw and a hammer is the most you're gonna hear. It's a strange thing. There are no signs, there are no advertisements, there's no words everywhere, it's kind of empty, right? You're just wandering around. There are all these kind of rancid, weird, horrible smells, because people aren't bathing, there's no, but they're very human smells, right? Your whole sensory experience is on another level. But when you live in this 21st century world where things are so sanitized, where we don't smell these things, we only hear these packaged mechanical sounds, your sensory world is shrinking down and down and down.

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  And you realize, yeah, ancient world, they had some bad stuff. They weren't very good, you know, they had slavery. I, I understand all of the negatives, so I'm not painting this portrait. But on another level, their realm of senses, their realm of language, their internal worlds were far richer than ours. And by connecting to that, by reading these books, by reading books, not just the daily life thing I said, but actually text from those times, as I was mentioning, when I read a monk, a Zen monk from the 11th century, and the different thought processes, it opens my mind to a different way of thinking, to a different way of accessing reality.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  But like, I'm reading a lot about Aztecs, because I've sort of obsessed with the Aztecs. I don't know why. And they had these amazing spectacles. That was the thing about the ancient world, these festivals and spectacles that are far beyond Burning Man or any rock concert, right? You know, I could describe the fire ceremony in Aztec culture that only occurred every seventy years. There is nothing you can ever imagine in your life that would be like that. It is so utterly spectacular. And so I have this eight hundred page book called Aztec Philosophy. And it's very theoretical, but God, it gives you an entree into a totally different way

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  of thinking about the world, right? Where they have these metaphors that the universe has this energy. Some of the energy is like string that's being wound around in a certain way. It's like weaving, like other, other things like that, this kind of energy that the world has. Wow, this is fascinating. You know, our ancestors were actually thinking, but they're not our, they're us. It's a human being, we're all human. We all have those same kind of consciousness.

• 1:17:52Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, you know, I, I love also finding things in cultures that match, but are in different languages.

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  And so. Like what?

• 1:18:00Jay Shetty?

  So I went to Hawaii a few years ago, which obviously for someone who grew up in London, it's not normal. People in America or LA travel to Hawaii fairly often. I went to Hawaii and, or not often, it's more accessible. But I went recently and my wife and I went, went on one of the tours there and they showed us the pericles, which are there, obviously like markings and storytelling technique and tool. And they were showing us how when a child is born, they used to place the umbilical cord on the ground and they would then draw a spiral around it. And that would be seen as a place that the child could always come back to, to feel the energy and reconnect with the earth.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  How exciting.

• 1:18:40Jay Shetty?

  And I was thinking, that's spectacular. I wish everyone felt disconnected to the earth. And then we would go out every morning on a canoe. I forget their name for it, but they had their version for it. And they would pay respects to the sun and the ocean. And we would take part in this ceremony with them. And in India, there's something known as Surya Namaskar, which it translates to sun salutation.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:19:03Jay Shetty?

  Which, again, I've talked to Andrew Huberman about this, it's like kicking off the circadian rhythm, but the goal is you pay your respects to the sun for everything it offers to you.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:12Jay Shetty?

  The energy that it provides. And so to see that in Hawaiian culture, Indian culture, and then, I was in Bhutan recently, I went on a trip to Bhutan, which I'd always wanted to visit. And this is a culture that really feels like you're going back in time. You walk out there and it feels like what you just described a thousand years ago.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Where is Bhutan, is it near Pakistan?

• 1:19:34Jay Shetty?

  Bhutan is landlocked between India and China.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  India and China.

• 1:19:37Jay Shetty?

  So right in between.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Where they're having their tensions, the kind of wars that's going on a little bit.

• 1:19:42Jay Shetty?

  Bhutan doesn't have a war, no. They don't even have a military, it's not part of their culture.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:19:46Jay Shetty?

  They, they believe in, they're a Buddhist nation.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  Is it a Buddhist nation?

• 1:19:51Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 1:19:52Jay Shetty?

  And their practices are very protected, their culture's very protected, like everyone's generally still wears the, the, the cultural dress.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  How exciting.

• 1:20:02Jay Shetty?

  Um, it was, it was spectacular. There's no, there may be a couple of these now, but until very recently, there's no malls, no cinemas, no restaurants, like completely.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:13Jay Shetty?

  And it's beautiful because it's just hills and mountains. They believe that the forest will always be seventy percent of the landmass because they believe they're sacred. You can't trek up to or ski on any of their mountains because they're sacred, they protect them. So there's a, and, and you almost, I almost felt like what you just said, there's no signs, you can't hear anything, there's no machinery, like it really does feel like that.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:38Jay Shetty?

  And we all, all of us who were there experienced this sense of slowness that you don't experience anywhere else. Not in a bad way, in, in a, the mind, the, the gravity almost of the space was really, really powerful to experience.

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  That's very exciting because, you know, you can go out into nature, into the mountains and you can feel that. And you can feel like this is what it was like two thousand, a hundred thousand years ago. But we don't have that feeling with human things because every city has its Starbucks, its malls, its generic culture that we've transported throughout the world. So to have a place where you can actually go back in time is fantastic. But I wish it wasn't so far away.

• 1:21:28Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. It's worth visiting for anyone who wants to. It was a really special trip. But you're right, the generic culture is the right word, actually. There's, there's a, every street looks the same. Every area looks the same. You, you, I know there's a lot of passion behind local businesses and it's healthy. People want to support local businesses. We need more of that because the generic culture really takes away from, like you expect. I mean, I was in India just recently on the way back and it's like, there was a Tim Hortons like right there.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:22:00Jay Shetty?

  A Tim Hortons, which I think is like popular in Canada or somewhere like that. Is it popular in the US, Tim Hortons? No, it's Canada. All right, my wife was telling me about it, but it was just one of the, it's, it's, and then there was a Starbucks. And then it was the same, the same thing. And I was like, I'm in India, like, you know, like, I don't not expect it, but it's, yeah, it's the generic. That's what's made the brain so dull.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  It has.

• 1:22:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're becoming homogenized. I mean, I, I like going to countries like Mexico because there's still pockets in Mexico.

• 1:22:30Jay Shetty?

  Right.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Where you can feel something of another, of a very different culture, you know? It's only in small little areas, but it's very exciting. It's nothing like Bhutan, but you can still get it a little bit, you know?

• 1:22:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, Robert, it's been such a joy talking to you today. And as always, I love how we just get lost. And this is what I wanted. I was, I was craving a authentic, real connection of where both of our minds were in this moment.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:22:55Jay Shetty?

  Um, but I want to end with a few, uh, solid, uh, fast paced questions. We call this the fast five. Uh, and I probably did it with you last time, so I'm going to change it up this time for you.

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  I hope my mind is fast enough to keep up with you.

• 1:23:08Jay Shetty?

  So you have to answer the questions. It's more like the final five. You've got to answer the questions in one word to one sentence maximum. So, uh, Robert Green, these are your final five. The first question is, what is something you had wished you'd learned earlier?

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  The piano. I mean, I know you were probably thinking about something about life, but I love music and I wish I had learned the piano when I was young.

• 1:23:35Jay Shetty?

  Do you still play? Do you play now?

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:23:37Jay Shetty?

  No, okay.

• 1:23:39Jay Shetty?

  Second question.

• 1:23:41Jay Shetty?

  What is something that you used to be sure about, but that you now are less sure about?

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  I guess a sense of right and wrong, or good and evil. When I was young, I had a very strong sense of it.

• 1:23:58Jay Shetty?

  That's a great answer.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  And now I'm not so sure about what it is.

• 1:24:01Jay Shetty?

  That's a great answer. Uh, question number three. If you could go back and live in any age, I'm thinking you're gonna say the Aztecs, but uh, where would you like to go and where would you wanna live? And what would you ask?

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  I would go back

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  to the Paleolithic era and our earliest ancestors. Because I'm fascinated by their world and what they were like. So, the Paleolithics, twenty thousand years ago, okay? And I would like to know about their religion, their spirituality. I'm interested in origins of human consciousness, so.

• 1:24:42Jay Shetty?

  Have you read any books on that?

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:44Jay Shetty?

  What would you recommend if someone's?

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  It's a subject that was just, my last chapter I was writing about.

• 1:24:49Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  The origin of language is the origin of human consciousness.

• 1:24:54Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  It's the same time that there were the cave paintings, right? Famous cave paintings in France, but they're all over the world. Aborigines, et cetera. And that was the beginning of symbolic consciousness. Yeah, there are all sorts of books written on that subject.

• 1:25:12Jay Shetty?

  Amazing. Question number four. If you could have three people over at your dinner party, any three people you choose, living or dead, who would they be?

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  Well, it would be Friedrich Nietzsche, because I'm reading a biography of his right now that's unbelievable.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  The other would be Buddha. Why not? And then the other would be, uh, it's a very odd mix of people, so I don't know if they're gonna get along.

• 1:25:39Jay Shetty?

  That's a good point, though, isn't it?

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd say, uh, maybe Socrates.

• 1:25:46Jay Shetty?

  Okay.

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  And let the fur fly.

• 1:25:52Jay Shetty?

  A fifth and final question, Robert.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  I find these stressful.

• 1:25:55Jay Shetty?

  They are, they are stressful. Something you're trying to learn right now?

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  To be more forgiving about myself, because I'm extremely unforgiving.

• 1:26:06Jay Shetty?

  With yourself?

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, not easy. It's not been my life pattern.

• 1:26:12Jay Shetty?

  Where did the pursuit begin and why is it a worthy pursuit?

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  Well, I think because of my upbringing, I always had a feeling of never good enough. I'm never smart enough, I'm not doing enough, I'm not a good enough person and I internalize that. And so it's probably partially led to my stroke, probably makes me drive myself too hard. And so sometimes I just have to be more forgiving. So instead of thinking, God, I'm never going to write anymore, the well is dry. The forgiving aspect is, Robert, you're tired, you're exhausted, you're doing fine, it's going to come. It will come, just trust it.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  So it's kind of like, you know, being indulgent towards yourself. I can be indulgent towards other people, but I can't be indulgent towards myself. So just learning to forgive myself for not being perfect and for not getting exactly what I want in life. It does the hardest thing for me.

• 1:27:21Jay Shetty?

  That's beautiful.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  It'd be very good for my health if I could, if I could ever get there.

• 1:27:25Jay Shetty?

  That's beautiful. Thank you, Robert.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 1:27:27Jay Shetty?

  Everyone, Robert Greene, I hope you enjoyed this episode of me and Robert truly just having a genuine passionate conversation about things we love. Please share on TikTok, on X, on Instagram, on Facebook, whatever platform you use. In the YouTube comment section, what resonated with you, what books you're going to read, what you connected with. Maybe some of the creatives out there who want to shift the way they think. Or whether you got some great insights on what are strong and weak character points. I want to know what hit you, what resonated with you. And thank you so much for listening and watching. And thank you again, Robert, for your time.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:28:01Jay Shetty?

  Your presence and energy.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  As usual, I really enjoyed it.

• 1:28:05Jay Shetty?

  Thank you. That means a lot.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'd go on for hours.

• 1:28:07Jay Shetty?

  I know, truly. If you loved this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Maté on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

• 1:28:20Speaker 08

  Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It grows where it's soft and green and vulnerable.

• 1:28:28Speaker 09

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, theHouseMajorityPact.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:28:57Speaker 04

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig.

• 1:29:01Speaker 05

  On October 2nd.

• 1:29:02Speaker 04

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:29:07Speaker 05

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:29:14Speaker 06

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You're stalled, you're freezing there, that's what.

• 1:29:18Speaker 05

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:29:21Speaker 06

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:29:23Speaker 05

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.