How it pays to be nice! The top ten big firms to haggle with and their call centre secrets

Martin Lewis gives you his top ten list of big firms you can haggle with to get the best price on things like satellite TV, phone bills, breakdown cover, insurance, and loads more. He also reveals call centre secrets, including tips from their actual staff, and from listeners who’ve managed to save. As the US and Iran have agreement to extend the ceasefire, will energy bills start to fall? Plus, Mastermind this week is all about a tax-free savings allowance few people know about. If you want to ask Martin a question, you now can! His Question Time podcast lets you ask Martin absolutely anything and everything (within reason!) – so if you’ve always wanted to know his favourite bridge, if he can do a handstand for longer than a minute, or have a very complicated question about your finances, email it to [email protected] mailto:[email protected].

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Martin Lewis?

  As that was substantially cheaper than the April price cap, you have been saving since men. We do not have a right to a cheaper price, but they do not have a right to our custom.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  My mates at school always used to say I'd end up with a brown maxi.

• 0:13Martin Lewis?

  I'm on a fix, I should fix, no. In the right industries, you can often save a shedload.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Olivia, hit the track.

• 0:19Martin Lewis?

  Hello, I'm Martin Lewis and this is the cunningly named The Martin Lewis Podcast. I do wonder what that's going to be about. And this is our big topic episode where each week we lead on a main subject to help you save. Now, much of it comes from my BBC Radio 5 live show with Adrian Charles, but there's also bonus money-saving tips and tricks just for you lucky, lucky podcast listeners. In today's episode, our big topic is haggling, specifically call centre haggling for broadband TV, breakdown cover, insurance firms and more. Many can save hundreds of pounds a year with just a simple phone call. I'll tell you the top 10 big firms to haggle with, I'll give you my top haggling tips,

• 1:00Martin Lewis?

  but also we've got top tips that call centre staff has told us to, including one that I genuinely found really shocking. Plus, with the agreement to extend the ceasefire in the Middle East, wholesale energy prices have dropped, so what does that mean for domestic energy bills? When will they get cheaper and is now the time to fix? And in this week's Money Mastermind, it's all about a tax-free savings allowance few know about. Will Adrian? We'll see. Play the theme tune.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Martin, I understand you haven't got your BBC pass with you and that actually means you don't exist, you're a non-person.

• 1:51Martin Lewis?

  I have a temporary pass, Adrian. Am I a temporary person?

• 1:53Speaker 01

  You're a temporary person, but very temporary. It only lasts the day, then you cease to exist again. You haven't, you haven't lost it completely, have you, your actual pass?

• 2:03Martin Lewis?

  Somewhere between being in the studio last week and leaving the door of the studio, my pass disappeared.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  The consequences for this are grave. It's the most unbelievable amount of faff. We might, in fact, I don't feel as if I can broadcast with you. I think I'll have to ask you to leave.

• 2:18Martin Lewis?

  Okay, fine.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  No, actually, don't go till one o'clock then. You might well be led away. I wish you well on your journey with doing a new.

• 2:25Martin Lewis?

  I know, I've been there before. I'm not happy.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Energy bills then. What are we, what are we thinking now in the light of peace breaking out at least temporarily?

• 2:35Martin Lewis?

  So it depends which bills you're talking about. I think it's worth starting. I have a graph in front of me. It is the UK natural gas price. If you'd like to look at it yourself, I'd go to Trading Economics and you want UK natural gas. I'm looking at the six month chart and it is really worth a look. I'm going to try and paint you a picture of what's happened. Because this is what feeds in to the prices that we all pay. Now, there are lots of other factors in our energy bills. Policy costs are huge and the costs of the company and the retailers, but the big changeable factor, the thing that moves most rapidly is these underlying wholesale rates. And even though I'm talking about the UK natural gas rate, because so much of our electricity is generated at the final point, the marginal call by gas,

• 3:20Martin Lewis?

  actually, this has a huge impact on the price of electricity too. So this is the graph that counts, if you like. So what you had, you had at the start of the year, while there were a couple of little peaks, you had the price was around seventy to eighty pence was pretty typical. So have that in your head. Let's call that normal, what the relatively recent normal has been, seventy to eighty pence. We then had, at the start of March, we had the start of the conflict going on in the Middle East and the price immediately shot up to around one pound thirty, one pound forty, peaking at one pound fifty. Stayed there for a while, dipped just before April down to around a pound again, but then went up to around one twenty. So

• 4:05Martin Lewis?

  the big picture, since the Middle East conflict started, a move up from seventy to eighty p to somewhere between one pound and one pound fifty. So you can see that that is, you know, it's a minimum thirty to a hundred percent rise in that underlying rate of wholesale gas and electricity. What has happened since the announcement of this treaty that we've come or the ceasefire that we've come? Well, the prices just dipped below a hundred, just dipped below a pound. So it's now at about ninety eight pence. That is less than it has been. Since the conflict started, but it's still nowhere near back to the 70 to 80p

• 4:46Martin Lewis?

  that it was before the conflict started. So prices are still 20% more than they were. Hopefully that has given you a rough idea. Now, what you have to get really complicated here is the impact of those prices, how it impacts depends hugely on whether you're talking about the switchable market, fixes and discount tariffs, or whether you're talking about the price cap. The energy price cap, you have to understand, is time lagged, right? So we already have the price for July, and the price for July was based on the wholesale rates

• 5:28Martin Lewis?

  from the middle of February until the middle of May. So about half of that was the Middle East conflict period. The beginning part wasn't. The price for October, the next one that we're going to, is the middle of May till the middle of August. So the first month of the October price cap has been at the high Middle East conflict rates. So that's already locked in, because the way the price cap is set is it's an average of wholesale rates over three months. We already have one month of the three months locked in. So whatever happens, you've got that high start point. So for it to come down a lot, you would need the wholesale rate to come down very much more than it was before the conflict started.

• 6:12Martin Lewis?

  I will say to come down a lot, maybe try and give some actual numbers on that. For the October rate to be cheaper than what we're currently paying, because the current rate that we're paying is the April price cap, all of which was before the Middle East conflict, we would need the natural gas price to come down probably to significantly lower than it was before the conflict. That is unlikely to happen, and if it does, it will probably be in only the last month of the assessment period. So all of that means... It's now looking like the October price cap may be slightly lower than the July price cap, but it certainly will still, almost certainly be higher than we're currently paying. That's what we know, and that of course is predicated on this ceasefire sticking.

• 6:57Martin Lewis?

  So the price cap, and people always say, oh, they rise quickly, they fall slowly. That isn't true. With the energy price cap, the price rises slowly and falls slowly. They can prove this by the fact that the the rise in July is the first rise based on the Middle East conflict which started in March. That will only hit in July, and it will still be hitting in October until the end of the year, even if this ceasefire continues right now. But the price that you can fix at, and the price that you can get discounted tariffs at, they tend to very much be based on today's prices. In other words, if you think about it this way, to set a fixed rate, to set a new rate

• 7:41Martin Lewis?

  that you can lock in a price at, what a company does massively oversimplifying, but gives you a good picture, is it says, what can I buy energy at today? Okay, I can buy it at that rate, so I will sell it at an equivalent rate with some markup on, obviously, because it's being retailed to consumers at that rate, because I can buy it today, and I will buy it for a year ahead, and I will buy thirty million pounds worth of that, and I'll sell thirty million pounds worth of that, plus the markup added on top. And then when that's gone, I'll look at what the new prices are, and I'll do a new fixed rate. So the rate of fixes that you can get a fix at moves much more quickly than the price cap. So we've already started to see fix rates come down a little bit because of this chipping away at the UK natural gas prices.

• 8:24Martin Lewis?

  And my prediction is by this time next week, I think that will have got a little bit cheaper again. To put this in perspective, a few weeks ago, you could not get a fix cheaper than the April price cap, the current price cap that we're all on. Last week, you could get it about one or two percent cheaper, with the very cheapest on the market, many fixes weren't. My guess is this time next week, I mean, currently we're at about three percent cheaper, we'll probably go to four or five percent cheaper than the April price cap will be the cheapest. As fixes. So the two things, the rate you can fix at is based on the immediate underlying wholesale rates. The price cap is massively time lagged. So we're going to get to this perverse situation, potentially if everything continues in October.

• 9:07Martin Lewis?

  That the the price cap will still be high based on prices right now. But the market could be entirely different for fixes. So there is a potential that back in October. You know, you could see fixed rates at twenty, thirty percent cheaper than the price cap that we've got then. That was a very long answer to the question. I hope it made sense then.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  It did make sense. Rochelle's got a question. Coming to an end. On my gas and electric fix rate with Octopus wants advice on whether to go on variable or fix again. Family of four with an electric car.

• 9:37Martin Lewis?

  So let's just go very, very simple here. Variable rate is the price cap. So we've we've talked about this before, but I will just reiterate it again, because whenever I ask people if they're on the price cap, they don't know. If you are not on a fix, if you have not chosen a special deal, if your fix has ended. And you haven't done anything, you're on the price cap. So when that question is about variable rate. That means, should I go on to the price cap or should I fix? Well, I mean, that you would not want to. Why would you go on to the price cap when fixes are getting cheaper right now? And the price cap is going to rise thirteen percent in July. I'd probably say somewhere about that level, although there's some crystal ball going into that.

• 10:19Martin Lewis?

  In October, it might come down a little bit from where it is in July, but it won't be as cheap as it is right now. But you can fix right now at less than the current price cap. And that's likely to be the cheapest it'll be for the rest of this year. So absolutely, if you're giving me a binary choice between staying on the price cap and going on to a fix, I would be moving on to a fix. I mean, when you move on to a fix is a more interesting question, depending what your current situation is. But compared to being on the price cap, you may as well just bird in the hand and sort it out now. The only thing I would note in there is you have an electric vehicle tariff. You have an electric vehicle and you might want to look at EV tariffs. EV tariffs. And there are lots of different ones with certain providers like OVO and Scottish Power. You can get fixes and have an EV add-on.

• 11:04Martin Lewis?

  With other providers, when it comes to an EV tariff, you get cheap rates for overnight charging and then you pay pretty much price cap rates during the day. So therefore you have a variable element that goes on within that price cap rate. And the question there depends on just how much of a proportion of your home energy bill your electric vehicle charging is. If it's a substantial portion, then the EV tariff will be cheaper. If it's not a substantial portion, you may be better off on the fix.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Okay, Brooks Fartini, I have fixed till the end of August. Do I switch to fix now? I haven't got any exit fees, even though it's at a higher rate than my current, but will be cheaper if things increase as expected come 1st of July or stay put?

• 11:45Martin Lewis?

  No, no, no, no, no, I can't. And I'm not, of course, I'm not angry with the person calling. I get this question so often. It's a completely false logic. Things are not increasing in July because the price cap is increasing in July. The price cap in July is going up because prices between February and the middle of May were high. That's why the price cap goes up in July because it is completely time lagged. It is based on three to five month ago past prices. That's what will happen in July. So the idea that you should fix now because of what will happen in July is a completely false decision.

• 12:27Martin Lewis?

  What you're effect, what we have to look at in this case is what will the prices of fixes be in August when my current fix ends? Will the prices of fixes in August be cheaper than I can currently fix? And the prices of fixes in August, the price cap is completely irrelevant for that because the prices of fixes in August are based on underlying wholesale rates.

• 12:51Martin Lewis?

  The problem is, I can't answer the question, because the prices of fixes in August were based on those worldwide markets. If the ceasefire holds and everything continues, then I would expect that you would be able to get a fix in August for less than you can get a fix now. Because, you know, the natural gas factories will be being repaired, the ones that are there, and the oil tankers will be coming out of the Straits of Hormuz, and things will be starting to flow, and things should be improving by then, though I don't think we'll go back to where we were on that basis, and that's not my area, but on the stuff I've been reading, anyway. So, yes, there is a real potential that things in August would improve, but if you're, so if you're asking me, should I get out of my fix now to pay more now because of the risk

• 13:36Martin Lewis?

  that fixes will be higher in August? I think it's predicated on a false underlying assumption. You know, things look like if we cross our fingers and the ceasefire holds, fixes will be cheaper in August, so you would want to hold on as long as you possibly can on your current fix. Of course, there is a huge amount of volatility, but there's nothing special about fixing right now if you're on a fix. And this is, sorry to go on about this, Adrian, but I think, I've really been struggling with this messaging in my work, I've tried to be as clear as possible. My message has basically been, if you're on the price cap, get off the price cap and move on to a fix, if you're on that variable price cap. And lots of people who are on fixes are reading that as, I'm on a fix, I should fix.

• 14:20Martin Lewis?

  No, that advice is for people who are on the price cap, where we know what's going to happen, we know it's going to rise 13%, or more accurately, 7% on electricity and 26%, 28% on gas, coming on the 1st of July. We don't know what's happening for fix rates. It doesn't apply on a fix. So, if you're making the decision, should I come off a cheap fix to get a more expensive fix? I mean, you would have to think the fixes are going to be much more expensive in future than they are now, and actually, the hope is it will be the other way around.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  I think there's a question from Lisa Campbell and there might be a barb in it, I'm not sure. But it says, what about those that followed your advice? Well, you don't really give advice as such, do you? What about those that followed your advice and fixed in May before the first of July price hike? Will those fixes come down like the first of April or do we just have to accept we drew the short straw this time?

• 15:14Martin Lewis?

  Well, if you fixed, I did a call out saying if you're on the price cap, there was a point in May, you really need to get off it because wholesale rates have just dipped and you might want to get in now because we're cheap fixes available. At that point, from memory, the fixes were about 5% under the April price cap. Since that point, you have been, fixes got more expensive, so you're only able to fix at best 1%. And in some cases, you couldn't fix at all cheaper than the April price cap. That's what that call was. So as that was substantially cheaper than the April price cap, you have been saving since May. And you were on the price cap. As long as you got a cheap fix, as long as you were, if you say you're following what I was saying, then it was about get a cheap fix.

• 15:59Martin Lewis?

  And I've never, I've always warned and told people to be careful about fixing it more than the April price cap. So you've been saving, but yes, at the time, and you can go back and listen to the podcast where I talked about it. I said, of course, nobody knows what's going to happen. If a ceasefire comes in, prices could get cheaper and they could get cheaper. And if you fix right now and you're on the price cap, it could be cheaper to wait and fix in six months' time. But you will have been paying more in the meantime. There is no way to judge that market. If you locked in on a cheap fix in May, you've already been saving. You'll be paying less than you would have done being on the price cap in July, less than you would have done being on the price cap in October, almost certainly. But you might have been able to get a cheap fix if you waited, but you'd have to pay more in the meantime, but no one knew that.

• 16:42Martin Lewis?

  So I would, I would question whether you have drawn the short straw. My actual, we're not back, fixes right now are not as cheap as they were at the point I made the big call in May. So I'm hoping they'll be back to that sort of level next week. Meantime, you saved. But yes, I always do the risk analysis. I always talk about the crystal ball element. And you know, for anybody listening, if you're waiting to fix, you may be able to fix cheaper coming October or November or December. I don't know that, but in the meantime, you would have paid more. So my, the exact phrase I used at the time is the risk averse thing to do if you're worried about price hikes is to lock in on a fix now cheaper than the April price cap. You

• 17:24Martin Lewis?

  did that, you saved money, you've, you've achieved the risk averse solution, but there's no way to know if in hindsight it will be the best solution or not, but it would certainly be better than staying on the price cap. I hope, I'm not trying to be defensive about that because

• 17:38Speaker 01

  No, I've got it.

• 17:39Martin Lewis?

  In fact, I remember having a long conversation with my team about communicating this. And I said that we have to talk about this in terms of risk because it's so unknowable. So the phrasing must always be about it being the risk averse thing to do because we can never say it's the best thing to do because you can't do that unless, you know, you're doing it six, eight months, eight months later.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Right. He wants to know if there's any particular advice for somebody purchasing a new house in terms of looking for an energy fix or not, or whatever.

• 18:08Martin Lewis?

  Well, I mean, if, if you're going to be purchasing a new house and you were to get a fix now, they are portable in most, most cases. I think the only ones who aren't off the top of my head are Outfox, Ovo and Scottish Power. And most of the rest have fixes that are portable, but I'd always check. So you can fix now and you can take that with you to your new house. The thing to be careful of is, for example, if you've got a dual fuel fix now for gas and electricity and you were moving to a property that only had electricity, then it may not be portable. But yeah, the same rule applies. If we're talking the really simple decision, should I stay on the price cap, which is absolutely undoubtedly going up 13% in July,

• 18:50Martin Lewis?

  and will probably, element of crystal ball, still be higher than it is now in October, and comparing that to fixing now, but making sure you get a fix, go Varicom Paris and site that's whole of market. If it's not whole of market, make sure you tick the box that says show all tariffs. But comparing it to a fix that is cheaper than the current price cap, then it is very substantially likely unless there were an extraordinary change that over the next year, you would pay less on that fix than you would staying on the price cap. And not only that, but you also get certainty of knowing what you're going to be able to pay and budgeting certainty to. So if it's price, but if it's a choice between EV tariffs or, you know, time of use tariff, like the agile and tracker tariffs that Octopus offer, then it's a much more complicated decision.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Okay, haggling is your big topic this week, specifically haggling with call centres. What's, what are you getting at here?

• 19:47Martin Lewis?

  Okay, so basically what this is all about is many mature markets out there are, you know, whether it's insurance or mobile phones, where effectively we've all got the product. So the real fight is they want to keep your customer and win business from other companies. Haggling, and by that we mean simply saying when you get to the end of your contract or you're out of contracts, and they will often try and put your price up saying, that is too expensive, I want to pay less, is incredibly lucrative. Now, of course, you could always switch elsewhere, but many people, if they're happy with the service and they don't want the churn, they just simply accept their renewal. And this is primarily a lesson in don't just accept your renewal, especially in the right

• 20:30Martin Lewis?

  industries, you can often save a shed load. That's what we're talking about. So it's call centre haggling primarily, we're going on about here.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Okay, we've had some successes sent from people who followed your advice. I call Sky every year and play the game. We say we want to cancel. We get transferred to the typical over friendly sales saver that they're there to stop me. We do a round of what if we did this discount for you? I say no, we go again until we come to the final boss. Let me put you on hold while I speak to my manager to see if there's anything we can do. They hold me for a few minutes while they doodle and build suspense and then come back with a new price. It's always 50% off the current monthly with some sort of freebie like movies for three months, etc.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  It's just, it's just so fatuous, the process, but Andy's right, that's how it works.

• 21:30Martin Lewis?

  It is how it works, and ultimately, this is all based on price differentiation, which is an economic term that says, one of the ways you have profitability is you charge each customer the maximum they are willing to pay. So those customers who automatically accept, and those customers who renew are clearly willing to pay, or they're not willing to pay but are unaware that they can pay, or accept and do pay, more than those customers who make companies fight for their business. That is simply the way that it works. And therefore, you have to decide, you have three choices. Either you can't cope with haggling, in which case ditch and switch and move elsewhere, and you will get a cheaper price. You can cope with haggling, in which case, as I'm going to do tips on it coming in a moment, you'll be able to save the price. Or you just do your renewal and you pay more.

• 22:15Martin Lewis?

  Now, I'm not justifying the way that the system works, but that is, I'm describing the way that the system works and talking about the consumer techniques that we can get there. Now, one of the biggest tips, and one of the most important tips, was contained in that success. And that is the fact that what companies tend to refer to externally as customer disconnections, the disconnection department, are internally referred to as customer retentions. So, if you say you're going to leave, and we'll talk about it in a bit more detail, I know we've got the news to come, if you say you're going to leave, then a company will often put you through to disconnections, where they have the people with the real power and authority to give you the discounts

• 23:00Martin Lewis?

  and deals which will keep you. So one of the absolute cores here is if you're not getting the deal and discount that you want and that you need, get yourself through to customer disconnections, internally known as customer retentions.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  But so what if you, what happens, I'd love to know if, I'm sure, but I can tell by the way Andy's written his question, he must have tried this. What if you ring up and say, look, I'm not going through the palaver, can we just get cracking? I'm gonna, I'm gonna disconnect, just give me your best offer. And if it's not good enough, then I'll disconnect anyway. I mean, is there a way of not going through this charade?

• 23:36Martin Lewis?

  I mean, no, I mean, leave and go elsewhere. It's as simple as that. Because, I mean, ultimately, Adrian, what you've just said, I mean, just just imagine that you're in the call centre and you've got that call. Well, they're gonna say, this is the best price that we can give you. And and you don't know, haggling is a negotiation. You know, it works like that. Now, now, look, you might be lucky sometimes and you'll get the discount that you want want straight away. And you might be unlucky sometimes and you won't get a discount at all. This is art, not science. But unfortunately, the the frustration that's going in your voice indicates that you are effectively, you can't really be bothered with this, all this charade and therefore the price isn't that important to you.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  No, no, no, don't say that. It is important. I just.

• 24:16Martin Lewis?

  Well, that's better, but we don't, but you know, the other thing, you have to start this with a different attitude. The most important way to do this, this is about chutzpah and charm and winning the person you're talking to to your side. Going in with frustration and aggression is is just not a good haggling technique, I'm sorry.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  It wasn't exactly a haggle, but I ran over my mobile phone, don't ask me how, while I was abroad. And I've been taught.

• 24:41Martin Lewis?

  Or with your feet?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  In a car.

• 24:42Martin Lewis?

  Okay.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  In a car, quite a large four by four. And I thoroughly recommend the case it was in because it's had a survive, but the it's just about, but the screen was, anyway. I paid for insurance, so that right, I'm gonna claim it. I went in with my studs on, I'm so fed up with insurers. I rang the poor bloke, I said, look, before he said anything, I said, look, I paid for this insurance, I was told it was no quibble, I wanted to pay, and he was going, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right. And they did pay off. And I felt a bit bad afterwards. But even he was saying to me, which I thought extraordinary for a call centre, he said, you know, you can do this online. So like, somebody who works in a call centre, trying to talk themselves out of a job by saying, go do it online.

• 25:20Martin Lewis?

  I mean, they all have targets and a number of people that they can they can hit and they have to push people online in order to do it, to get it going through. So I'm I'm less surprised by that. And it's worth me saying, when we're talking about haggling here, we could be talking on the phone. You could equally be talking these days with a with a web chat system. And going through a web chat system to do it and talking to somebody there. It doesn't necessarily have to be on the phone.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  I believe you have a top 10 of firms to haggle with. Do we have a little music bed?

• 25:47Martin Lewis?

  We do.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  As we call it for this?

• 25:48Martin Lewis?

  We have a music bed. We're going to play it in just a second. Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:51Martin Lewis?

  This is the top 10 UK service companies to haggle with from a poll that I've done based on the back of it. Now, the success rates are for people who tried to haggle, not overall. It's only those who actually went for it. And what we're going to talk about, Olivia, hit the track.

• 26:08Martin Lewis?

  In at number 10, it's LV with 69% success rate. Closely above that, at number nine, it's Sky Television, not its only entry in the top 10. Also with a 69% success rate, it is just behind its own stablemate, Sky Mobile Phones at 72%. Sticking in the telecoms arena, in at number seven, it's TalkTalk with a 73% success rate. And then we start to move into the big ones, where more than four in five people who tried succeeded. You've got AA Insurance, I'll be mentioning that name again later, at 80%. Hastings Direct Insurance at 82%. Admiral Insurance at 83%. We get to the big three now. And at number three, getting right up there, a huge success rate of 85% is Virgin Media. And the top

• 26:53Martin Lewis?

  two come from the same sector. Those who haggle often will know exactly where this is going to be. In at number two, 90% success rate, nine in 10 people who try succeed, is the AA only being picked by its biggest rival, RAC for breakdown cover, at a staggering 91% success rate of customers who tried to haggle succeeded. 62% say they had a big success, 29% say they had a small success. Add them together and you get 91%.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Right. One of the top two I haggled with, but I was so livid with them. I was so livid with them for offering me a much lower price than I'd found myself stock on. I just left them and swore never go back and wrote them a rude letter.

• 27:44Martin Lewis?

  Well, I mean, let me go through my haggling tips because that makes perfect sense. I get your frustration in this. Some people enjoy it, some people don't. But Adrian, the fact is, I mean, it is a golden rule. When you are coming to the renewal of your breakdown cover, do not, do not simply accept the price you're getting. We had someone on the Question Time version of the podcast the other week who saved £550 a year by haggling.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  I couldn't untick the auto renewal box that I'd stupidly ticked several years before. They wouldn't let me untick it without ringing them and then I couldn't get through.

• 28:17Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, I mean, that's very frustrating. But look, my number one tip is always before you do this, benchmark the best buys that are available elsewhere and be asking them to match that. So that if you were willing to go elsewhere, you could. But equally, I was going to, my last tip is always, if you don't get what you want, then feel free to ditch and switch. Remember, we do not have a right to a cheaper price, I'm afraid, but they do not have a right to our custom. And as long as we don't make this aggressive with the individuals that we're talking to, they are free to charge you the price that they're charging. You are free to go and take your business somewhere else. And that's ultimately the trade off that goes here. I'd just run through my quicks quickly because we've got lots of people who've got in touch with their own tips. And I've also got tips

• 28:59Martin Lewis?

  from people who walk in call centres too. Number one tip, just say again, always be polite and charming, never rude. Some operatives have discount quotas, so you want to try to win them over so they support you and they give you one of their discount quotas. You've just got to go in with the attitude of financial flirting, if you like.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Can I ask you something about that? If somebody says, oh, hi, it's Aloysius here. Good morning to you. Do you say, oh, hi, Aloysius, how are you? Do you use, if they're giving you their name, do you use their name?

• 29:31Martin Lewis?

  If it feels right, if that's your normal conversational mode, if that's how you do it. I mean, one of the most important things, as we can tell, let's do a, me and you do this exercise now, Adrian.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:41Martin Lewis?

  Okay. So I'm talking now, I'm going to, I want you, I'm not going to do it just yet. I want you to tell me when I start smiling, okay? So the next tip I have is know when to haggle. Focus on mature industries and

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Now.

• 29:54Martin Lewis?

  Exactly. You heard it.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:56Martin Lewis?

  Right? You heard the smile in my voice.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  But I'm livid though. I can't smile.

• 30:00Martin Lewis?

  Well, look, you know, you're an actor. You've just got to get round. You've got to do this. We can't be livid with them. It's not going to work. So that was a real tip. Know when to haggle. Focus on mature industries when the contacts end. Know your haggle reason before you call. So what is the reason you're going to say you want to discount? This is over budget. I've found it cheaper elsewhere and you should have benchmarked those prices. I've spoken to my wife, my partner, my budgie, whatever it is. And they say we can't afford this at this rate. So I'm going to have to get rid of it. I don't want to get rid of it. I'd prefer to keep it, but I can't keep it at that price. Have in your head what the reason you want a cheaper price is. We've already talked about no joy going to disconnections. Just going to read your success here. Because if we're talking mobile phones specifically,

• 30:42Martin Lewis?

  while you may be better haggling, there is a shortcut that you may enjoy. The final point, when you found a new deal elsewhere that you do on your mobile phone bill, is you ask for your PAC code, your PAC code. Right? And you can do that by, oh, you just text PAC. I just have to double check my header. Six five oh five seven. I hope I've got that right. I'm doing that from memory.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Have you got Rosie with you? She always

• 31:05Martin Lewis?

  I will check that.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  She normally gives you

• 31:07Martin Lewis?

  Rosie will message producer Matt and Matt will then say in my ear whether that's right or not.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 31:11Martin Lewis?

  PAC to six five oh five seven. That's the magic behind the scenes, Adrian. That's how it works. So when you do that, in quite a lot of occasions, the company that you're leaving, because you're telling it you're leaving, will try and keep you. And you'll get a text back saying, okay, here's your PAC code, but this is what we'll do if you stay. Let me read this from Sue. After reading your email, sorry, she sent this to me. I was finally prompted to switch my SIM from O2 to GiftGaff. I'd previously tried haggling down my monthly tariff with OT without success. I read the advice about getting a PAC number, then waited a while after getting it. As predicted, O2 called and offered me a deal, reducing my monthly tariff from over £12 to £6 and upping my data allowance from 5GB to 25GB.

• 31:54Martin Lewis?

  Encouraged by this, my partner did the same and reduced his SIM-only monthly tariff from £18 to £8. Between us, we've saved £200 a year and increased our monthly data allowances considerably. See, that's it, and she goes on to thanks.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 32:09Martin Lewis?

  Simply putting PAC in, telling them you're gonna leave, it's all about letting them know you're going. Couple of final tips from me before we get on to the tips from out there. Do not be forced to cancel. This is what scares people off. I go through to disconnections, like you say, but what happens if they say I'm gonna disconnect you? Here's the answer. They get on the phone, here, you could be the call centre, so I'd like to cancel, we've gone through the talk and you can, and you tell me now you're gonna cancel me, Adrian.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Well, in that case, I'm brave, you know, I know you're Martin Lewis and I know you're smiling as you talk, even though you're not particularly happy, but I'm gonna cancel you, don't want you.

• 32:43Martin Lewis?

  Okay, yeah, I just need to go and check that with my wife before I do, that she's happy with me to cancel and I will call you back on it. It could be your wife, it could be your husband, it could be your boyfriend, it could be your girlfriend, it could be your father, it could be your daughter, it could be your auntie, your uncle, or even your pet parrot, I don't care. But if your, if your concern is what happens if they call my bluff, then you just have the, I just need to check with someone else. And that saves your embarrassment and it gets you off the phone. Because, next tip, if you fail, try again in a few days. Different person, different time can get you a different result. And I've just had a message in, I'm sorry.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Go on, say it again.

• 33:17Martin Lewis?

  65075 is the right number, text PAC. And just because you're getting your PACO, by the way, doesn't mean you're leaving, it's only when that goes to the new provider that that's right. And the final tip of mine, if all of this doesn't work, if they haven't given you a deal or the discount that you want and you think is appropriate. If there are cheaper prices elsewhere, ditch and switch.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  We've got tips from people to haggle with a call centre, from people who work in call centres in some cases.

• 33:52Martin Lewis?

  You've got the tips, we did a tellers on this, my tellers was call centre secrets. If you work or worked in a call centre, what tips do you have for people to get the best deal? And then I did another one, which is for people who are good at haggling, to get in touch with their haggling tips. So you've got the haggling tips, I've got the call centre tips from the call centre staff, and we can alternate them. We'll play different roles in this, I'll be call centre staff, you be a haggler, even though you're clearly not.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Okay, haggling tips, and Peter, pressing hash when going through the automated menu usually pushes you through to a human, yep.

• 34:25Martin Lewis?

  Kirsty from the call centre says, be nice. If you're rude, I'll do what I'm paid to do. If you're nice, I'll do everything I can to help you.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Interesting, interesting, because I realise to the extent to which you assume they're almost automatons and they're only going by a pre-written script, you forget they've got, and you should remember this at all time, you know, they are, you know, they've, they've got hearts and minds and it's probably not what they grew up wanting to do.

• 34:52Martin Lewis?

  And the poor, the, the, well, not necessarily, it's not a bad job and it's moving through a process, you know, it, it gets you there. But the, the point I would make is literally, I've had call centre staff tell me in the past, they, they have a certain number of discounts they can give in a day. That's the point. So there is a discretion there of who they're going to give a discount to and who they won't. What's your next tip?

• 35:12Speaker 01

  The only effective way to haggle is to say you're cancelling. With car insurance particularly, it's an annual time wasting ritual when they hike the renewal for no reason at all. You're called to cancel and they immediately fall and come back with a better offer.

• 35:23Martin Lewis?

  Who's that one from?

• 35:24Speaker 01

  That's from system.

• 35:26Martin Lewis?

  Now, I have to tell you, this one from Ellie has sent chills through me and I think it will send chills through everyone who hears it. Ellie, I'm from a call centre staff. If you think you're on hold, don't assume because there's music that the call handler can't hear what you're saying whilst you're on hold.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  That's not cricket, is it?

• 35:47Martin Lewis?

  Well, I think it's probably just done for the system. So, I mean, in, in purely haggling terms, what you don't say is you turn to your partner and say, oh, they're offering me 50. If they get down to 40, I'll accept it because that, that would clearly, you've then given it away. But equally, what else could you be saying? I mean, I'm, I'm a little bit blown away by that one.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  What else could you say? What else could you say?

• 36:06Martin Lewis?

  I mean, no, I don't mean about the haggling. You could be having a private conversation. You could be talking, you could be brushing your teeth, you could be doing anything else at the time. The fact that they can hear you when you're on hold.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Cricket nut says, yep, open extreme. Make your biggest move, the first hold position. Increasingly smaller counter offers and holds. Additionally, look at the tradables. There's always value to be had. I, I think I know what he's talking about there.

• 36:32Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, tradables is, I mean, anything they can throw in as extras will give you more, you know, we heard it earlier, will give you more data on your mobile phone, will give you more channels that is non-cash. Try for that as well, because that's often easier for them than giving you cash. Claire, like this one, Claire from the call centre, most call centres work nine to five, twelve to six, two to ten and overnight shifts. Try and call towards the end of those times. Be polite, use the handler's name. Well, there you go, Adrian, you asked before. Claire, who works in the call centre, says use the handler's name and tell them to take their time so they don't have to take another call two minutes before their shift ends. That makes them finish late. Interesting.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Interesting. What were the times again for the shift?

• 37:12Martin Lewis?

  Nine to five, twelve to six, two to ten.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:16Martin Lewis?

  And overnight shifts.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Right, got it.

• 37:18Martin Lewis?

  And generally, if you want to get through earlier in the morning is often best, as a general rule, you know, not just haggling all over the place.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  The Volt, Volt LQ, I think it is.

• 37:30Martin Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  The haggle that works best is the, is the one you time. Sky, broadband, insurance, all price on inertia, so the discount goes to people who know their contract end dates. Diarrhoeous renewals two weeks out and the call centre script right itself.

• 37:46Martin Lewis?

  Absolutely right. And if I just go through the top five sectors to haggle with, I won't do this with the music bed. Bank and card providers, overall 46% success rate. Mobile phone providers, 63%. TV, broadband and home phones, 69%. Insurance, 70%. And breakdown cover, 87%, which I think is worth knowing. Back to the tips that I've got. I mean, some of these are fascinating. Tina, again on timing. Don't ring around lunchtime when people are on breaks. You'll have longer wait times and more stressed staff.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Okay, go on, give us another one. I like yours.

• 38:22Martin Lewis?

  I like this one too. Kylie.

• 38:26Martin Lewis?

  When we ask if there's anything else we can help with, please don't ask for the lottery numbers, because we've heard it millions of times already.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Brilliant, brilliant.

• 38:36Martin Lewis?

  And Kim says, know the NATO phonetic alphabet, because when you have a letter like a B or a P in your name or postcode, they sound similar over the phone, also M and N, and then swear words tend to come in the front of people's mind when they're under pressure to come out with something. I do people's names generally, because I don't know the NATO phonetic alphabet, I don't swear, but you could just imagine someone doing it, saying that. It's a B, like, B as in, well, you can come up with your own B swear word.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  I do know mine, my dad taught it to me when I was little, and it's just stuck, it just stuck with me.

• 39:11Martin Lewis?

  What's F?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Foxtrot.

• 39:13Martin Lewis?

  U?

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Uniform.

• 39:15Martin Lewis?

  You're very good, I don't know them. Alexander, sending in legalistic complaints from ChatGPT aren't the slam dunk you think. Nine times out of ten, they make no sense, yet always read through your AI before you're going through. Have you got any more tips there, before we get to my tip to you, which is not to do Mastermind?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, Chris, it's funny how people like to haggle gardening services, but not electricians or plumbers. Interesting.

• 39:40Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, I think face to face, people find it much more difficult, and when you're dealing with someone who's doing the work themselves, as opposed to offering a service, there's almost, I think we've got this British disease that we feel like we're insulting them by saying, that price isn't the right price for me, because you're having to say, oh, your work isn't that good. But, you know, everything, everything that is discretionary, where there's a fixed amount of work, is open to some form of negotiation, but you have to do it the right way. And remember, they can choose not to do it at that price, and you can choose not to employ them at that price.

• 40:19Martin Lewis?

  Adrian, you've got nineteen right and forty wrong in this three option multiple choice quiz, which means sadly you are still.

• 40:30Martin Lewis?

  No better than random chance. For those who don't listen regularly, this is the Money Mastermind as a setup and then a question for Adrian. We'll see how he does. Are you ready, mate?

• 40:40Speaker 01

  I'm ready.

• 40:41Martin Lewis?

  Okay, now recently, our Adrian was out in his padded gilet, off to a petrol forecourt shop to buy a token for his favourite weekend ritual: checking the tyre pressure on his beloved 2007 Mud Brown Fiat 500.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  It's funny you should say that. My mates at school always used to say I'd end up with a brown Maxi.

• 41:00Martin Lewis?

  Fiat 500 is quite close.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Close, yeah.

• 41:04Martin Lewis?

  Suddenly, the lights flicker and a smoking DeLorean screeches in, scattering air fresheners, dog chews and discounted de-icer. A wild-haired man leaps out and shouts, "Jump in, you host of that! Adrian, I need your help!" Adrian, thrilled, climbs onto a stack of screenwash and declares, "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads." The man says, "Of course we need roads. I just know you do that podcast with Martin, and I've got a tax question..." Sorry, my throat. "From 2026, anyway, I've just retired", he says. "My pension is around £12,500 a year, and my savings earn around £4,400

• 41:44Martin Lewis?

  interest. Back then, I didn't think to the future enough. Do I pay income tax?" So Adrian, are you Marty McFly or Marty Muk Y Me? I want to know what your answer. A reminder again, with a £12,500 pension and £4,400 of savings interest, roughly how much tax is payable? A, none, and it's all in the UK of course, B, 20% of £3,400, which is about £680, or C, 20% of £4,400, so £880.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  B again.

• 42:21Martin Lewis?

  Twenty percent of three thousand four hundred pounds. So you've got a twelve thousand five hundred pound pension and four thousand four hundred pounds savings interest. How much tax would you pay? Non twenty percent of three thousand four hundred or twenty percent of four thousand four hundred?

• 42:39Speaker 01

  It's got to be the middle one because there must be some allowance the first.

• 42:42Martin Lewis?

  So come on, what do you know about savings allowances?

• 42:46Martin Lewis?

  We've been doing this programme for a good few years.

• 42:52Martin Lewis?

  Okay, how much can a person earn generally the personal tax allowance before they pay tax on it? Do you know roughly?

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's about twelve thousand five hundred, isn't it?

• 43:00Martin Lewis?

  It is indeed. It's twelve thousand five hundred and seventy.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Right, okay. So.

• 43:06Martin Lewis?

  So this is a question about savings allowances.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's a question, yes, about savings allowance. So I'll take seventy off. It is.

• 43:12Martin Lewis?

  Ignore the seventy.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Ignore the seventy.

• 43:15Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, it's all rounding. So are you paying twenty percent of the entire savings interest? Are you paying twenty percent of the entire savings interest bar a thousand pounds? Or are you not paying any any tax on the savings interest? That's the question.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  I think you've got to pay some tax and I don't know why there'd be a thousand. It'd be not the whole lot, but I'll I'll go for not the whole lot.

• 43:37Martin Lewis?

  So are you locking in on B?

• 43:38Speaker 01

  I'm locking in on B.

• 43:39Martin Lewis?

  Okay, you're locked in. Right.

• 43:44Martin Lewis?

  Adrian says it's twenty percent of three thousand four hundred. Now, there is the personal savings allowance, which I suspect many listeners will know about, which says a basic rate taxpayer can earn twenty can earn a thousand pounds of interest a year on any form of savings without being taxed. So with the normal personal allowance and the personal savings allowance, that would mean you would only pay twenty percent of tax on three thousand four hundred pounds, not four hundred, not four thousand four hundred pounds. So if that were it, you would be right, Adrian, but you're not.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Why'd you do this?

• 44:19Martin Lewis?

  Well, because I was hoping that I'd give you at least, you didn't even get half the answer I was expecting you to get, which was to say that the personal savings allowance is a thousand pounds. What's missing in this one is there is another allowance that people don't know about. It is called the starting savings allowance. And what happens with the starting rate of savings is if you have high savings interest and low earnings, then it is a special allowance that means up to the first five thousand pounds of your savings interest can be tax free. Plus, you get the personal savings allowance on top. And the way they've set this scenario up, which was a twelve and a half thousand pound pension, and of course pensions are taxable income, so that's all taxable income,

• 45:03Martin Lewis?

  and four thousand four hundred pounds savings interest, again taxable income, it would all be covered by the starting savings allowance, which means the correct answer, I'm delighted to say, is A, in that circumstance, you would not pay any tax. You got it wrong, Adrian, but I'll be explaining the starting rate of savings a little bit more in the podcast for anyone in that circumstance, and they will get it right because it means they'll pay less tax.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Thank you very much, Martin.

• 45:28Martin Lewis?

  Okay, I've moved into podcast only mode, and I just want to explain how the starting rate of savings works in a little bit more detail. Effectively, the rule is above the personal allowance, so twelve thousand five hundred and seventy pounds, you can earn five thousand pounds of interest only from savings, and it would be outside an ISA because interest inside an ISA isn't taxable, and that will be tax free. However, for each pound you have from earned income, which includes pensions above twelve thousand five hundred and seventy pounds, you lose a pound of that five thousand pounds starting savings allowance of tax free savings interest.

• 46:10Martin Lewis?

  Let's do, let's do a few examples which I think should clear this up. So if you earned £12,571, one pound above £12,570, your starting rate of savings allowance would drop to £4,999. If you earned £13,570, a grand above the personal allowance, your starting rate of savings allowance would be £4,000. If you earned £16,570, which is £4,000 above the personal allowance, your start from earned income, your starting rate of savings would be just a thousand pounds. And once you get to earnings of £17,570, you no longer have the starting rate of savings.

• 46:55Martin Lewis?

  But remember, you do still have the personal allowance because now you're a basic rate taxpayer and that means you can earn a thousand pounds of savings tax-free each year. I know it's a little bit complicated, but what it effectively means is someone who earned £12,570 from earned income and had £6,000 of interest from savings outside of ISAs could have all £18,570 tax-free. Obviously, you'll need to do some thinking how it applies to you, but it effectively, this was set up to help people who have a low earned income and high savings interest, primarily pensioners who tend to be in that situation. You've got savings built up over the years but are no longer working and they're just living off pensions that are at a relatively low level.

• 47:39Martin Lewis?

  And it works there, which is why Adrian got the question wrong. I was expecting, I don't know what you think, I was expecting him to know about the personal savings allowance because we've talked about that a lot. That's the thousand pounds of interest you can earn tax-free as a basic rate taxpayer, £500 of interest you can earn as a higher 40% rate taxpayer. You don't get a personal savings allowance if you're a top 45% rate taxpayer. But he didn't, which means the score gets even worse, 19 right and 41 wrong.

• 48:09Martin Lewis?

  Now I'm joined by podcast producer Matt. Hello Matt.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 48:13Martin Lewis?

  It's nice to have you on here. I think we're mostly covered haggling. I think we've got a lot of the different messages we got in. We have had some successes in. I know you've got those and I've got a few more of the tellers from call centre staff that I'd like to read out. So why don't we alternate? Are you happy with that?

• 48:26Speaker 02

  I'm happy with that.

• 48:27Martin Lewis?

  Okay, you can start. You success first.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  Okay, success from Andrew. I bought two paintings the other day when I said I was interested in the second. I did ask for a possible discount and I got 400 quid off. I said, that's reasonable. I'll buy both.

• 48:41Martin Lewis?

  Wow. There you go. So work for both then. Hopefully work for the shop and work for you. Not a call centre haggle, but we liked that one anyway. Sarah, reiterating something we've heard, but I think it's a different way of phrasing it. This is coming from call centre staff. Please, please, please just be polite. We're not chief executives of companies and have to adhere to guidelines set out that often can't be changed. If you demand to speak to a manager, they will often not want to talk. We simply pass on to another colleague, or they would tell you the same as we've already said. Yes, you might be angry and frustrated, but out of hundreds of calls each day, we'd only have maybe one or two that were pleasant to talk to. Well, that's awful. If I ever call nowadays,

• 49:21Martin Lewis?

  I make their lives as easy as possible. Never ever call 30 minutes before closing. So yeah, I mean, you can hear the frustration coming from the staff. You can also hear why it pays to be nice, because if you're one of those two people, they really will want to help you. It's interesting, I had a, I had an issue myself with a call centre. I won't go into detail who it was. But I was, I felt that procedurally and systemically, something that that company doing was wrong. And when I asked about it and was told that that was the policy, I said, I said to the call centre staff, I said, look, this isn't you, but I think there is a systemic policy here. I'd like to make a complaint. How do I make a complaint? And he told me how. And we did the complaint

• 50:02Martin Lewis?

  together. And all the way through, I was very keen to say, I absolutely get you haven't done this. You seem a very nice person, but I do think that procedurally, the company is behaving in a way that isn't appropriate. And I put the formal complaint in, and we had a nice little chat about something, and then we said bye. I try not to make it personal, because it wasn't, it wasn't that individual's fault. I mean, why should I be having a go at him?

• 50:25Speaker 02

  When you ring up, do they know it's you?

• 50:30Martin Lewis?

  So when I call, I have an email address that is not my work email address. So doesn't include money saving expert in my email, which is what I use for all of my dealings. You know, my private, personal administrative dealings. And so there isn't an automatic clue in there. Some do go, you know, when they ask for your name and I say Martin Lewis. I've had people make a joke, oh, you're the Martin Lewis, are you? I should be careful. And I sort of don't never quite know how to reply to that. I've had others who do it as an assertion. And then I will, you know, if they ask me the question, I have to say yes. And some who don't know. So it can depend.

• 51:11Martin Lewis?

  I will always remember there was, I was calling up and it's a long time ago now. Cause I think it was motorbike insurance and I've since had a ban on driving a motorbike from, not from the police, from my wife, who won't allow it. But anyway, that's, that's another discussion. So, and I was for motorbike insurance and I called this company and they hadn't done anything wrong. And she got it with me straight away and just went into this absolute panic mode. And I said, I asked a question, said, oh, I'm going, I'm going to need to go and find out. I'm sorry, it's going to take me two minutes. And like, I was like, that's absolutely fine. She doesn't know what I'm like, it's fine. And I literally could hear her running across the call center.

• 51:52Martin Lewis?

  I could hear the feet patting at speed to get across the call center and her talking in the background to someone in panic. And I came back and I, they just, I felt really bad because I was being nice. I wasn't calling up to complain. I was just asking a simple inquiry question, but it felt, I feel she felt like her entire job was on the line. And, and I do remember one time, go the opposite way, where they didn't know it was me. And I had incredibly rude service from somebody. I mean, they were really rude and I wasn't being rude. And I remember putting, and what they told me was completely inappropriate. And I said to them, I don't believe that answer is correct. And I believe that break breaches the FCA's regulation on it. I would like you to check. And he said, I know what I'm talking about.

• 52:37Martin Lewis?

  And I said, well, I don't believe you do, and I'd like you to escalate if you would. And he was properly rude to me. And I said, I think we should take a step back here and start this again, because I don't think this is good for you or good for me. Still refused and in the end, then when I asked to speak to escalate it to a manager as it was part, he refused and he said, you don't have a right and I'm not going to talk to you anymore. And he put the phone down on me.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 53:04Martin Lewis?

  And I called, in the end, I went senior and I used the who I am and I called senior people in that very large corporate environment, explained to them what had happened and they said, yes. And I explained to them why I thought their policy was wrong, which they understood and agreed with. I'm not going to go into the details of what it was. And they said, can we listen to the call? And I said, I don't want to because I don't want that person to lose their job. And they said, well, we're going to listen to the call. So they listened to the call and they came back and I said, I had a big push. I don't want them to lose their job. I think they probably need some retraining, but I don't want them to lose their job. And they told me they wouldn't lose their job. But they said the

• 53:43Martin Lewis?

  irony was, they had done a training session with call centre staff and one of the analogies they'd used was just imagine that you're talking to Martin Lewis.

• 53:55Martin Lewis?

  And this person had been and hadn't got it. So, but I don't want, I'm trying to, as you can probably hear, Matt, I'm trying to be really nice about it and not do it in. Just for people listening, I was nice and I was 100% right. Right? And the company apologised later and agreed that I was 100% right. And this was, it was just wrong. But obviously the guy was obviously having a really bad day.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've all had bad days. But it does show, doesn't it? It pays to be nice. Just be nice. It's nice to be nice.

• 54:28Martin Lewis?

  It pays to be nice. And I always do it the other way around. I imagine I'm talking to someone who's been embedded by the call centre, by the Daily Mail, and they were looking to catch me out. So that I have to be nice the other way around in the same way. Right. So now I believe we've still got a few more left on this issue. I think we've got, you've got a couple of successes and I've got a couple more messages from people in the call centre. Shall we do those?

• 54:49Speaker 02

  If you'd like.

• 54:49Martin Lewis?

  PK Rising, I work at an insurance call centre. There is no wiggle room on price beyond changing your details, updating the quote. If they do get you a better price, listen carefully for, and that includes your optional XXX.

• 55:05Martin Lewis?

  So I mean, the message there I agree with, which is that always be careful to make sure you're getting a like-for-like replacement and the change in price isn't simply a change in the product. But we do have data that many insurance companies will, especially if you tell them what you're being charged elsewhere, and they will often want an accurate quote. They want to know which company is willing to charge you less than they are. They will price match at least with existing companies. Have you got another success for me?

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've got a success for Matthew. He says, "I always haggle, mainly with car insurance and car breakdown cover, main one being the AA for car breakdown. Every year I get the renewal at way more than last year's premium. I call them and ask why it's gone up. I think I've only had three or four call-outs in the nine years I've been with them. After this, the price usually drops. This year, the call handler said she can drop it from around £230 to around £170. I then said, 'Are you sure that's the best you can do?'" And her answer was, "Oh, I think we can do a bit better. Ah, yes, we can knock another £20 off. Win."

• 56:04Martin Lewis?

  It's, I mean, ultimately, it's variable pricing. It's price differentiation, as I talked about before. And we'll finish with Joe. And because I think Joe sums up, if I haven't knocked this message hard in yet, I don't know what I can. If complaining, which is slightly different to haggling, no matter how bad the complaint, just be nice to the person. I guarantee you will get better help from them if you make them want to help you. And that seems a good way to end. That's it for this week. We tend to put out a new episode every Thursday and Monday. That's our Question Time podcast, where you get to ask me absolutely anything and everything, open brackets, within reason, close brackets. If you've enjoyed the show today, please tell your friends you've been listening to

• 56:49Martin Lewis?

  the Martin Lewis podcast, suggest they listen too. Why don't you and they subscribe? And why don't you and they leave us a review? Are we asking too much? Maybe, but go on, if you've got a little bit of time, you can always do it. Your pockets at least will be pleased with you. And if you haven't enjoyed it and you've been listening this long, it's your own fault. So.

• 57:23Speaker 03

  Martin Lewis is the founder of MoneySavingExpert.com. But of course, other consumer and price comparison websites are available. You can get in touch with Martin's podcast production team by emailing [email protected]. The offers and rates mentioned in the podcast are correct at the time of recording. However, if you are listening on demand, it's worth double checking as details can date. Remember to subscribe on BBC Sounds and leave us a review however you listen.