Jocko Underground: Negotiation: Whoever Cares The Least Wins

Negotiation in Life. Getting a family member out of a huge lazy rut. More about Delta Platoon Commander, Seth Stone. 4 Pillars of self defense: Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai. Ice bath. Son not doing as well as he should be in college. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Underground Podcast number 77, sitting here with Echo Charles. What's happening Echo Charles? Hi. Okay, we can do it like that.

• 0:15Jocko Willink?

  Negotiation, in negotiation whoever cares the least wins. I saw this little clip from Tim Ferriss the other day.

• 0:24Jocko Willink?

  And that is a true statement, right? When you're in negotiation, if you don't really care, you have leverage because you're not concerned. Well, I was, I was buying a car many, many moons ago. My uncle, both my uncles, actually I have two uncles, they're both car salesmen. They're retired now, but I was buying this car and I called my, one of my uncles and I said, hey, here's what's going on. Here's the car, here's the, the package that it comes with and whatever. And I told him what the price was.

• 1:00Jocko Willink?

  And he, I said, you know, what do you think? And he says, it's not a hateful price. And I said, okay, well, what does that mean? What should I do? And he goes, walk away, they'll call you. And I said, well, I kind of like this car, you know, he goes, walk away, they'll call you. I said, all right. So I walked away.

• 1:22Jocko Willink?

  They called, you know, they, they adjusted their figures. Why? Because I acted like I didn't care. And they did. They want to sell that car. So, you know, this is one of the reasons I can't really go shopping for big ticket items with my wife. Yeah. Because she'll just walk up, look at a car, look at a house and just be like, oh, I love this. No, no, she's better now. I've, you know. You trained her? Yeah. We didn't train her. She's not a dog, but we have discussed protocols when looking at properties or when looking at big ticket items, right? So.

• 2:09Jocko Willink?

  That being said, a long time ago, you and I talked about something that's kind of the opposite of that. And that is, there's some environments where whoever cares the most is most likely going to win. Cause, and that's because, this is like in a team environment, in a work environment, the person that cares the most is probably gonna win because, because they won't stop until they do. Right? So, because they care, they're gonna make maneuvers, they're gonna outlast, they're gonna out hustle, they're gonna, they're gonna do things that the person that doesn't care is not gonna do.

• 2:51Jocko Willink?

  So, when you're going through life, make sure you know who you are, and make sure you know where you're at, and make sure you know who you're contending with. If you're at work, you gotta care. If you're in negotiation, you better not care. And it's important to know what you're up against, right? Know who you're up against. And you're negotiating with someone, you gotta know, you gotta understand how much they care about the thing. And then you know what you're dealing with. Cause if they don't care, then you, you gotta understand that. You don't have much leverage. If you're at work, how much do they care? They care more than you? Are they willing to go the distance?

• 3:36Jocko Willink?

  Cause you might be wasting energy trying to fight somebody that really cares and they're gonna win. So you gotta understand who you're up against, in what scenario it is, and then you gotta address it appropriately. And then, on top of that, these areas, these ideas, kinda collide when it comes to leadership. Because, when it comes to leadership, one thing that leaders mess up is they care too much about the wrong things. So they care too much about things that they shouldn't be caring about, they don't care enough about things that they should. One thing that generally leaders care too much about, is they care too much about their own ideas.

• 4:18Jocko Willink?

  They care too much about their own thing, their own idea, the plan that they came up with, they care too much about that. They also care too much, when you're in a leadership position, about who gets the credit.

• 4:32Jocko Willink?

  Right about who said more in the meeting, right? These are things that people in leadership perspective, in leadership positions, they care about and they shouldn't freaking care about those things.

• 4:46Jocko Willink?

  Leaders sometimes care too much about themselves. And what, how this impacts them. When what leaders should really care about isn't who gets the credit, isn't whose idea it is, isn't who said more in the meeting. What they should really care about obviously is their people, because if you take care of your people, your people will take care of you.

• 5:08Jocko Willink?

  So, let's think about that. The, the way caring impacts different situations, leadership situations, team situations, negotiation situations. Just think about it. Know yourself, know your level of care, know what you're caring about, know your, your teammate, your opponent, your counter in negotiation and know where they're at and what they care about.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I caught that Tim Ferriss clip as well. That was good. Yep. Yeah, it's almost like whoever cares the most is gonna spend the most, right?

• 5:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Essentially, and I don't mean spend necessarily just money. I mean, they're gonna give out or they're gonna expend the most. You know, if they care, because they care, you know? So negotiation, it works against you.

• 6:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Because negotiation, usually you want to get the most, not expend the most. So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that was a good clip, I thought.

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  There you go. But as soon as I saw it, I thought about that conversation. We had a long podcast a long time ago. There were some things in the, in the military that I cared about and it would take a while, but we'd, we'd end up with a V, with a, with a W.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Uh, your uncle's a car dealer.

• 6:29Jocko Willink?

  Car salesman.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Salesman.

• 6:32Jocko Willink?

  They're retired now.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  So, but they got all the inside tips or what? I mean, I'm sure there's new age.

• 6:37Jocko Willink?

  It was, it was, there is new age stuff, but it was kind of nice to have them on my side back in the burk.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Oh, when was that?

• 6:44Jocko Willink?

  Like my entire life.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  No, that that.

• 6:47Jocko Willink?

  That particular situation was um the nineties, the late nineties.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, so last encounter I had with the car salesman, I knew that I knew the tips. And my wife, she's down for the cause worse than me. Oh, yeah, she's the kind where like the opposite of your wife, I mean, like she'll go in just knowing like nobody, her dad, my father in law is freaking hardcore. As far as negotiation, that kind of stuff. So anyway, so she's like that too. We go and I knew I knew all the tactics. Well, most of them anyway, I looked them up. We knew that, uh, sorry, car salesman, I'm gonna give away some of the secrets. So they do like certain things and I'm just paying attention and I'm assuming they're doing all of this stuff or whatever. So they'll give you a good deal on it if you go financing with them because they make money off the financing.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  I've even heard of, and I don't know if they're doing this, but you gotta kind of know this stuff where um they'll bug the office.

• 7:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  And then when they leave, they record the conversation, they listen for more information, for more leverage or whatever. Got to know that kind of stuff too. I'm not saying they do that because I don't know. I don't think that's legal, is it?

• 7:52Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  But I've heard of that. And then um what was the last one? Oh, yeah. So the guy, my salesman, he wasn't like an older, he was a younger guy. And he did jujitsu at Otis. So I was like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna bond with this guy. And I'm gonna flip him to give out all the secrets. See what I'm saying?

• 8:08Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  We did it.

• 8:10Jocko Willink?

  So we like like sat down, like give me the secrets or he was like, uh, you mean for the deal gave you a good deal?

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so but but in the in this sense where this is what happened. We I ended up talking to him and you know, and we kind of create a relationship where now he's not negotiating on behalf of the company. He's just kind of bro-ing out with me. So he's like, he even said, and he had his like mask on, this is back in the day, we had to wear masks. And he like totally like takes off his mask. He's like, hey, they make their money on the giving up all the goods. They make the money on the financing. So you just gotta this and that and let me get do this. And he's like doing all this stuff. He didn't have that much power. He's like, but let me tell my manager this and that. And then we ended up getting a good deal.

• 8:50Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's definitely some tactics and counter tactics. The funny thing is like here in San Diego.

• 8:58Jocko Willink?

  The, there's an area mile of cars.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's where I got my first car in San Diego.

• 9:03Jocko Willink?

  So those guys are like sharks down there. They're looking for those young military dudes.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Bro.

• 9:07Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying? Like, I remember I'd go to look for a car and like, I was kind of read in on the game.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:13Jocko Willink?

  Because of my uncles. So, but you'd walk on that lot and they would be on you, bro. On you.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:22Jocko Willink?

  Like, ready to make a deal.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:24Jocko Willink?

  Ready to make a deal. And you know, back in those days, I mean, they're like, hey, what kind of payment do you want? They don't care. They're just ready to break stuff down for you. They're gonna figure it out. Like, how much, how much of a payment can you afford? And then we'll get you a car that kind of matches that.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't worry about the price.

• 9:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, don't worry about the price.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  I got got with that, by the way.

• 9:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you did, car?

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:44Jocko Willink?

  What happened?

• 9:45Speaker 01

  That, I was like, and here's the.

• 9:47Jocko Willink?

  What kind of car was it?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Cadillac.

• 9:49Jocko Willink?

  You like those caddies, don't you?

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, after, after that car.

• 9:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I remember that, I remember that Cadillac. CTS, right?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 9:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So not a CTSV?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 9:58Jocko Willink?

  No, okay.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  So that was, and here's another little tactic too, and this goes for a lot of businesses in life, but um, the, the guy who did it was a friend of a friend. So you, and so he's like, no, I'll tell him you'll get a good deal, right? You'd think, oh, freak, yeah, friend, it's my friend, you know, it's kind of one of my good friends too.

• 10:16Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  And he was a friend of a friend. So of course I go in thinking I'm getting a good deal when most of the time now, and guess who told me this? My wife. She's like, no, that's when the guys really capitalize because they know that you as a friend of a friend or a friend, like you don't want to disappoint them with like, oh, the deal falling apart. You know, so you're gonna, you have some skin in the game in that way where you don't want to let them down either, you know, kind of a thing? And if they know that, they're just gonna take advantage of you.

• 10:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  I was like, huh, that's weird. So um, she actually scolded me for getting that car without her, by the way. But, so I went and I was like, hey, this is my budget. This is how much I want to. Oh, yeah, big thing.

• 10:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  And try bringing it up now, next time you see her, and she'll, she'll probably feel some kind of way.

• 10:55Jocko Willink?

  This is the black one with not tinted windows, right?

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, no tinted.

• 11:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was kind of weird. I, I don't understand cars without tinted windows.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess, some cars.

• 11:06Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you should have negotiated that into the plan.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  I should have.

• 11:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  But he was like, I was like, hey, this is my budget. Like, I can't spend over this. He's like, okay, well, you know, and I'm thinking total price, right? So I don't know. And then he's like, oh yeah, what kind of payment, like what payment can you afford? And I was like, oh yeah, this much or whatever. So this one, at the end of the day, he goes, hey, this is the payment. $100 more than you said. He's like, but don't worry, like, think about it, like, you can afford this and just convincing me that I can afford it. Knows my budget all of a, you know, all of a sudden. So I'm like, all right, I was like, what's the total price? He's like, bro, don't worry about the total price. Like, we get these cars at all these, all different prices or whatever. Don't worry about that because we're not, we're not focused on us making the profit. We just want this to fit your payment budget. So look, and you can afford this because look, you figure this and that.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Crushed.

• 11:54Jocko Willink?

  Do you know what you did when you ran the calculations? What did you pay for that car? What's it worth?

• 11:59Speaker 01

  No, I didn't run the counter. I ended up, well, luckily at that time I was only making a certain amount of money. And then I ended up, you know, doing better with my work and stuff. So I ended up just paying it off. But this was, here, here was the time, this is when I really knew like, okay, I completely got screwed. Because Sarah gets on the phone with him and says, hey, I don't want one of those payments that you only pay interest first. You know, first you just pay interest only for like a while and then it slowly changes. She's like, hey, I don't want that, that payment for him. Like, I want the one where you're paying like just as much, like a flat.

• 12:30Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Rate or whatever.

• 12:32Jocko Willink?

  You're paying down the principal out of the gate.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just a flat rate, kind of a thing. And he's like, yeah, I got you. No, don't worry. I got it. I got the deal almost done already. And yes, you got that. She's like, okay. And she's like, whatever. Sure enough, freaking, we look at like all the records or whatever. No, interest only for like so long, totally lied. And I'm like, but what are you gonna do? I'm not gonna go school my friend's friend.

• 12:51Jocko Willink?

  How long was the payment plan? Was it like 72 months?

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Six years, yeah. Yeah, that was the plan.

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  Do you remember the payment?

• 12:59Speaker 01

  455 or something like that.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Yep, it's real.

• 13:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you can, you can charge, uh, I think they can charge 24.99% interest too. So like these young Navy dudes, bro, or these young Marines, they roll out and they're looking at like a brand new Camaro.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, Camaro, the, uh.

• 13:21Jocko Willink?

  It's a dream, brother, 18 years old. And you're getting a brand new Camaro. Think about that. You're 18 years old, you're getting a brand new Mustang or a super, a super duty freaking F350.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 13:33Jocko Willink?

  You don't know that you're paying it for eight years.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:36Jocko Willink?

  And it's costing you $142,000.

• 13:41Jocko Willink?

  So they get that it's weird. It's also weird how emotional cars are to buy.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:48Jocko Willink?

  Well, the car, people love Americans. I mean, maybe everyone does, but Americans really, a lot of Americans really like cars.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  You know what's weird, but I was thinking about that on the way over here, literally like, but like, what's the, and here's why, here's my little conclusion. You ready for it? So the typical American does only a handful of things and it depends on what city you're in too, by the way, because some cities like cars are not really that much, as much of a thing. But you know, we live in California and stuff, so you only do a handful of things, right? As a person and then from there it's like, yeah, from there it's just a few things, a few minutes a week or something, you know, like when you think about it, right? And then reduce the thing to things that have to do more with your identity. It's going to be your clothes, maybe your haircut or whatever. If you're a girl, the makeup, you put how you put it, you know? Basically your clothes, your car, because you go places, right? The car is essentially an extension of yourself.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Um, so yeah, clothes, car and maybe some people their house.

• 14:43Jocko Willink?

  Well, I was going to say your house, but you know, not as many people see your house as they do your car. Everyone sees your car.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Exactly right. It goes with you pretty much everywhere you go.

• 14:52Jocko Willink?

  I, I was going to say, see Americans, when you get a car, most, most places, it's a freedom, right? It represents freedom, but then it also represents for a lot of people, status. Like, oh, this is, you know, I'm being seen this car like I was rolling in a 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan with a taped shut window.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Yep. But my conclusion is a car is an extension of your identity or is intertwined with your identity. And that makes perfect sense, even for what you just said, where you can be like, oh yeah, I had a Dodge Caravan because I didn't care. But I was like, yeah, that's your freaking identity. Like, just like you don't have a Rolex, just like you don't wear like these $2,000 suits ever, you know? Most people with, you know, who, who, who, that's within their budget will say, people with money. They're gonna have nice suits. They're gonna have like a, like a nice car, probably. It's pretty rare. That's why I like when you, when you, when you think of an, uh, like if you know of a millionaire or, or someone with a lot, a lot of money and they drive their old truck. It's like, it stands out a lot. Everyone remembers that guy.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Cause it's so rare. Dude, grab any millionaire from San Diego. They're gonna drive a nice car. Straight up. They're not driving the caravan.

• 16:00Jocko Willink?

  What's crazy is you grab just about anyone from San Diego and they've put way more money than they should into that vehicle.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  The identity, bruh.

• 16:08Jocko Willink?

  Right? They like that vehicle.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  If you have someone who considers car part of status, you're gonna find something else of theirs that's gonna play the same role in their life. Like clothes.

• 16:17Jocko Willink?

  Wait, if they, if they like the car status?

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:20Jocko Willink?

  They're also gonna like the clothes status?

• 16:21Speaker 01

  You're probably gonna find that same pattern in something else of theirs.

• 16:25Jocko Willink?

  You can get sucked in any of those things though. Like the watch, you mentioned the watches. Like people are into watches. People pay twenty, thirty, forty, fifty thousand dollars for a watch, bro. And it doesn't have a stopwatch on it either, by the way.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:37Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't have like a two, you can't get like two time zones or whatever. It doesn't have the digital date. Like the functionality is lame.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:45Jocko Willink?

  And yet people will spend all kinds, they have them in case, like a little, uh, watch, uh, display thing that automatically winds them. I'm like, I got a battery, bro. They're winding things up.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  I know, but again, well, okay. And then, then this goes for cars as well, where some people, they, they just like cars. They're into cars.

• 17:05Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And I, I actually do like cars. You know, I appreciate a cool car.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:11Jocko Willink?

  You know, I like that nineteen seventy-three Ford Econoline van, cause it looks legit.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:18Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. And, and so there's a difference between liking cars, like just as a, as a subject or whatever. You know, like some people, they love airplanes. Some people, some kids, they like dinosaurs or whatever. You know, they know about all the different dinosaurs and all the, when they lived and all this stuff. So, so guys are like that with cars. They know the nineteen sixty-nine, you know, Camaro, whatever the cars are. And, uh, they, and that, that's what they're into. They're into even, a lot of times they're into like even the engine parts and the, and the, and the, you know, the mechanism and stuff. Like that. That's different than the status.

• 17:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's different than I want the BMW nine seventy four I.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  The most expensive or yeah, exactly. The status part of it or the Rolls Royce Phantom. That's what I wanted, you know? And I'm not saying if you like that, that's what it is. I'm just saying that's what it can look like. Same thing for watches. Some people there are just into that watch. That's that new rare one with the sapphire. I don't know, something made out of sapphire. And then or the rare, rare Rolex or whatever, right? And they're into watch. They got like, you know, a thousand of them. Cause they're really into them. But some people, they're just like, no, I just want a Rolex because it's status. You see what I'm saying? It's the same kind of pattern.

• 18:28Jocko Willink?

  Got it. Got it. I always, when I drive by like apartments. That people are renting and there's nice cars outside the apartments, like really nice cars, Mercedes, BMWs, Cadillacs, this kind of thing. Lincolns. I'm always a little bit, kind of feeling a little bit disappointed that you went and bought that Mercedes or that Cadillac. You probably could have bought a little house somewhere or like a, you know, a piece of real estate.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, from the.

• 19:00Jocko Willink?

  That's going to appreciate hopefully in value much more than your, your BMW is not going to appreciate in value.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, from a financial planning standpoint, for sure. Makes sense. And like, so think about this though, like what if you had? Obviously, let's say a person had um.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Two million dollars.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  And that's like kind of more, let's say they made, let's say actually how about this half a million dollars a year they made, right? So it's not like, they're not like top point zero one percent, but like they're like doing it though.

• 19:33Jocko Willink?

  Well.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  In America.

• 19:34Jocko Willink?

  Just to, just to let you know, four hundred thou, it's around four hundred thousand dollars a year puts you in the top one percent.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Okay, so um.

• 19:42Jocko Willink?

  So they're in the top one percent. They're making five hundred Gs.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Some of these nice condos, like they're super nice condos, maybe like six, seven, eight, nine, ten grand a month.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Their condos, their apartments or whatever, and then there's gonna be a nice car like that in front, right? So a lot of times, basically, the question is this, if you make a lot of money, there's, it depends what kind of person you are, which will determine what you spend your money on. Some people, they'll get money and be like, okay, for security reasons, I'm gonna make as much money as I can, so I'm safe. I got a safety net, I got, you know, and they, and they look at it from a financial stability and safety standpoint. Some people are like, hey, really, the primary reason to make extra money beyond what I need, like beyond like, you know,

• 20:26Jocko Willink?

  Is to have fun.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Is to have fun, to bolster my identity, maybe to score chicks, um, maybe to, uh, live experiences, like, you know, people, they just travel. They're like, man, I just wanna try, I wanna buy a deck out a big sprinter or something like this and just deck it out, put some solar panels on there too, and just travel and surf or whatever. And that's literally what, what the ideal money scenario would be, you know? So basically, the point there is, when you make money, like, different people have different idea, ideas of what money should be spent on. And yes, it, I think we look at financial stability as a smart thing.

• 21:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we do.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  But not, but some, a lot of people don't look at it like it's everything, you know?

• 21:09Jocko Willink?

  And when you're an 18-year-old Marine, you roll onto the car lot and that dude's got a freaking brand-new Camaro. So, that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jacoundground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms, so we are not subject to their control. And we're doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as-is, free-for-all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of

• 21:54Jocko Willink?

  sponsors, and we're doing it so we can give you. More control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So, thank you. It's jocko underground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.