#609: In Case You Missed It: June 2022 Recap of “The Tim Ferriss Show”

Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=monthly-recap, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers to tease out the routines, habits, et cetera that you can apply to your own life. This is a special inbetweenisode, which serves as a recap of the episodes from last month. It features a short clip from each conversation in one place so you can easily jump around to get a feel for the episode and guest. Based on your feedback, this format has been tweaked and improved since the first recap episode. For instance, @hypersundays on Twitter https://twitter.com/hypersundays/status/1496997636846780416 suggested that the bios for each guest can slow the momentum, so we moved all the bios to the end. See it as a teaser. Something to whet your appetite. If you like what you hear, you can of course find the full episodes at tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=monthly-recap. Please enjoy! *** Timestamps: Jack Kornfield: 00:03:28 Bill Burr: 00:09:43 Edward Thorp: 00:14:53 Jason Portnoy: 00:20:22 Isabel Behncke: 00:26:36 Sam Harris: 00:31:36 *** This episode is brought to you by 5-Bullet Friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/?utm_source=timblog&utm_medium=timblog&utm_campaign=podcast-sponsorship, my very own email newsletter that every Friday features five bullet points highlighting cool things I’ve found that week, including apps, books, documentaries, gadgets, albums, articles, TV shows, new hacks or tricks, and—of course—all sorts of weird stuff I’ve dug up from around the world. It’s free, it’s always going to be free, and you can subscribe now at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/?utm_source=timblog&utm_medium=timblog&utm_campaign=podcast-sponsorship. *** Full episode titles: Jack Kornfield — How to Overcome Apathy and Find Beautiful Purpose (#601) https://tim.blog/2022/06/22/jack-kornfield-2/ Legendary Comedian Bill Burr — Fear{less} with Tim Ferriss (#602) https://tim.blog/2022/06/23/bill-burr-2/?utm_source=convertkit&utm_medium=convertkit&utm_campaign=weekly-roundup-jack-kornfield-bill-burr Master Investor Ed Thorp on How to Think for Yourself, Mental Models for the Second Half of Life, How to Be Inner-Directed, How Basic Numeracy Is a Superpower, and The Dangers of Investing Fads (#604) https://tim.blog/2022/06/28/edward-o-thorp-2/ Jason Portnoy of PayPal, Palantir, and More — Porn Addiction, The Corrosiveness of Secrets, Healing Wounds, Escaping Shame Cycles, and Books to Change Your Life (#600) https://tim.blog/2022/06/15/jason-portnoy/ Primatologist Isabel Behncke on Play, Sexual Selection, and Lessons from Following Bonobos for 3,000 Kilometers in the Jungles of Congo (#598) https://tim.blog/2022/06/01/primatologist-isabel-behncke/ New Insights from Sam Harris, Dr. Peter Attia, Ramit Sethi, and Elizabeth Gilbert (#599) https://tim.blog/2022/06/08/sam-harris-peter-attia-ramit-sethi-elizabeth-gilbert/ *** For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors http://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, Balaji Srinivasan https://tim.blog/2021/11/15/balaji-srinivasan-2/, Sarah Silverman https://tim.blog/2022/01/12/sarah-silverman/, Dr. Andrew Huberman https://tim.blog/2021/07/06/andrew-huberman/, Dr. Michio Kaku https://tim.blog/2022/01/07/michio-kaku/, and many more. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Five Bullet Friday, my very own email newsletter. It's become one of the most popular email newsletters in the world with millions of subscribers, and it's super, super simple. It does not clog up your inbox. Every Friday, I send out five bullet points, super short, of the coolest things I've found that week, which sometimes includes apps, books, documentaries, supplements, gadgets, new self experiments, hacks, tricks, and all sorts of weird stuff that I dig up from around the world. You guys, podcast listeners and book readers, have asked me for something short and action-packed for a very long time, because after all, the podcasts, the books, they can be quite long. And that's why I created Five Bullet Friday. It's become one of my favorite things I do every week. It's free,

• 0:44Tim Ferriss?

  it's always gonna be free, and you can learn more at tim.blog/friday. That's tim.blog/friday. I get asked a lot how I meet guests for the podcast, some of the most amazing people I've ever interacted with, and little known fact, I've met probably 25% of them because they first subscribed to Five Bullet Friday. So you'll be in good company. It's a lot of fun. Five Bullet Friday is only available if you subscribe via email. I do not publish the content on the blog or anywhere else. Also, if I'm doing small in-person meetups, offering early access to startups, beta testing, special deals, or anything else that's very limited, I share it first with Five Bullet Friday subscribers. So, check it out, tim.blog/friday.

• 1:27Tim Ferriss?

  If you listen to this podcast, it's very likely that you'd dig it a lot, and you can, of course, easily subscribe anytime. So, easy peasy. Again, that's tim.blog/friday, and thanks for checking it out, if the spirit moves you.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I answer your personal question?

• 1:50Speaker 02

  No, it doesn't seem appropriate.

• 1:52Speaker 03

  What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 2:07Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers of all different types, to tease out the routines, habits, and so on that you can apply to your own life. This is a special in-between-isode, which serves as a recap of the episodes from the last month. Features a short clip from each conversation in one place, so you can jump around, get a feel for both the episode and the guest, and then you can always dig deeper by going to one of those episodes. View this episode as a buffet to whet your appetite. It's a lot of fun. We had fun putting it together. And for the full list of the guests featured today, see the episode's description, probably right below wherever you press "Play" in your podcast app. Or, as usual, you can head to tim.blog/podcast and find

• 2:51Tim Ferriss?

  all the details there. Please enjoy.

• 2:57Speaker 04

  First up, Jack Kornfield, who trained as a Buddhist monk in the monasteries of Thailand, India, and Burma. Jack has taught meditation internationally since 1974, and is one of the key teachers to introduce Buddhist mindfulness practice to the West. His most recent book is "No Time Like the Present: Finding Freedom, Love, and Joy Right Where You Are."

• 3:28Tim Ferriss?

  So, Jack, let me ask you a question about the anxiety-suffused society in which we find ourselves. And this is a question I'm very interested in personally. So, to what extent do you think about creating the ideal environment for yourself and your loved ones versus adjusting to an anxiety-suffused society that is unlikely to be wholly changed by your efforts? And it makes me think of a very often quoted quote of Krishnamurti's,

• 4:10Tim Ferriss?

  which is, "It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society." But one could argue that that is absolving yourself of any responsibility. So, how do you think about... Choosing between those two, or a ratio between those two, or contending with that tension, if you see any tension between those two.

• 4:30Speaker 05

  I love your question, because it's a little like a Zen koan, you know? The world is on fire, it's in flames. Do I stay around and try to put the fire out, or the Titanic's going down? Do I help people into the lifeboats? Or do I flee? Do I go in the mountains? Or do I get a little lifeboat and so forth? Do I stay, or do I go? And the answer to those kind of koans is yes. Which you gave the little mathematical answer, how do you titrate it? In some fashion. Because I think it's both. You know, the metaphor that everyone uses these days is, you know, put on your oxygen mask first, before you put it on your children. There's a way in which we have a responsibility to ourselves,

• 5:14Speaker 05

  to try to stay healthy and well. And I know, you know, if I go into a refugee camp, it doesn't help if I go in and I'm depressed and anxious. They're already feeling that. They don't need me to breathe. They actually need somebody who says, yeah, this is suffering, and there are ways to manage it. There are ways, even though it's difficult, there are ways and there are possibilities for us. The great anthropologist and philosopher Wade Davis said, despair is a failure of the imagination.

• 5:50Tim Ferriss?

  That's a good one.

• 5:51Speaker 05

  It's a brilliant line, because it speaks to the heart. Despair is a failure of the imagination. Human beings have been in tough times since caves and saber-toothed tigers, since, you know, battles between different clans, you know, and then we don't have to talk about the Huns and the Visigoths, or the Roman army, or the, you know, the armies of the, whatever, the Aztecs, or wherever around the world. We human beings have dealt with epidemics, flood, tornadoes, continuing war is not a new story, right? And we're survivors. And we survive in two ways.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  First of all, we survive by protecting what we care about, which is ourselves and those close to us. So I do that. I want to protect my grandson. Have him live in a place where it's safe, if that's possible. Of course, safe enough. Or myself.

• 6:50Speaker 05

  But I also don't want to turn away for two reasons.

• 6:56Speaker 05

  My daughter said, "Well, if climate changed and everything gets better, you know, would you move to New Zealand?" Or, "Would you get..." And I said, "You know, I choose to be on the deck of the Titanic and I'll help people in the lifeboats." That's just what I've taken as a vow, as a bodhisattva, that you turn toward suffering and you offer what you can. But part of that offering is to see that the world that I want for my grandson needs my tending. And it doesn't mean I can change it, because this is the way of the world in some ways. But it can be better or it can be worse, and we know that. We can stand up for things that really matter. And so your question, which is a really, it's a question of the heart, it's also different for different people.

• 7:41Speaker 05

  There are some people who are profoundly contemplative, and I think the extreme are those Tibetan yogis in a cave who are broadcasting compassion to everybody in the world. If we're all connected, as they say, as we find, then that's their contribution. But then there I was, out on the streets in March for Your Lives in DC for this, and that was also important. And I love the fact, it was not this one, but with the prior March for Your Lives, I forget who it was, but there was a fantastic black gospel singer who stood up, and she sang in a sort of gospel style, Bob Dylan's "The Times They Are A-Changin'." You know, forty years after it came out,

• 8:26Speaker 05

  gather around people, "The times are changing, don't block up the wall." And I listened, and it was, it was the very same medicine that we needed. And I felt so glad to be out there with people. And I felt so glad that we were doing lobbying petitions and sending money and trying to support the organizations and do what we could. And I've also worked with kids coming out of street gangs in the cities. You know, and they're, they're veterans too. When we've had retreats with Army veterans, military veterans coming back, combat veterans, and some of these young kids, they look at each other. In their eyes and they nod and they know that they've all been together in battle.

• 9:10Speaker 05

  Because some of these kids have seen as much shooting as some of these vets have. And so, we actually need to tend to that. And it becomes part of our life purpose. In some way, yes, to take care of yourself, but yourself isn't separate. To take care of yourself is everything.

• 9:35Speaker 04

  Next up, legendary comedian, Bill Burr.

• 9:43Tim Ferriss?

  In high school, what did you think you were going to be when you grew up? Do you have any idea?

• 9:48Speaker 06

  No, I was failing miserably. But like, I did great in school. I did great in school and right until it counted. I did great right up to 8th grade. And when I, in my freshman year, I was going in, I was like, I'm gonna go to Notre Dame and I'm gonna become a lawyer. And by like sophomore years, it's like, I'm gonna be a construction worker and go to Wentworth. I'll drive a truck! Um, yeah, I just, I don't know. I think somewhere along the line, I just wanted to have a fun job. I wanted to have a fun job. I did know that because, uh, you know, I hated everything else. I didn't like carpeted areas. I didn't like wearing suits. Like, I liked working in warehousing. I liked, I liked having a job where I could walk, walk away from an area. Like, I always just remember seeing people who had to sit in cubicles, like, they just had to be there.

• 10:33Speaker 06

  And if you're not there, and immediately they know that you're screwing around, like, you know, like, where is he? He's supposed to be right here! He's not getting what he's supposed to be done! So if you work in warehousing, you could be on like a forklift, or unloading a truck, or cutting up boxes, or just doing something. As long as you were in this giant area, they were alright with it. And, um, like, warehousing is great. It's all class clowns, musicians, like, addicts, alcoholics and shit. I remember this dude, yeah, I remember this dude coming into work. He came in like 3 hours late. It was like 90 degrees out. And his hair was soaking wet from a shower, like dripping down. He's like, "Oh yeah, the traffic, the traffic was brutal." Just like, dude, your hair's still wet from the shower. And I remember, um...

• 11:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, he had a major coke problem. And, uh, yeah, he'd be wired. I remember my boss had a coke problem. I remember getting that job and the first day I saw him, he was, this guy was like probably 6'4" and couldn't have weighed more than a buck sixty. He was just, just wired. And they had this pallet jack that was like electronic. And they're like, "Yeah, let me take you over to meet the boss." And he saw me and he was just so, like, just geeked out. He was just like driving it towards the dock, back and forth, going, "I'm gonna drive it off the dock!" And just coming back, like licking his lips and shit. And I was just like, "Alright, this is gonna be my boss." And I, and I, I worked the third shift and it was all people like me, working our way through college. Like if, you know, if you didn't get student loans or whatever.

• 11:59Speaker 06

  I got laid off from that shit because there was this, this fat fuck used to come out. From the, uh, he was fat and he was a fuck.

• 12:09Speaker 06

  So, he would come walking out. He'd come walking, I remember he'd wear short-sleeved dress shirts. And you know those guys so fatty, he had to really swing the arms to get out? And he'd just come walking out and he'd look around and all these badass dudes all of a sudden would be grabbing boxes and pretending to work. And I just had that thing, maybe it's the stand-up comic thing where that, that, that thing, you're just like, I was like, "You know, fuck this guy." Fuck this guy. And I'd just look at him, like, "Hey, what's going on?" Like, "I'm not, I'm not doing this little fuck. I'm working out here. I don't want to fucking extra work." "When you come out here, fuck you." "Why don't you pick this up, you tub of shit?" That's what I was thinking. So then, I ended up, uh,

• 12:53Speaker 06

  right after that moment, like an idiot, I then asked the other, the coked-up guy for a raise. And then, and then I think the fatty was just like, "To hell with this guy." So then, I got laid off from that. And, um, then I was collecting unemployment, which I had never done and I felt, I felt like a piece of shit doing it 'cause my parents worked so hard. And it was a bad economic time and I couldn't get a job. And I just decided that I wanted to be a comedian because working in the warehouse, I was working with this guy who was hilarious and he wanted to be a comedian. And he was the first guy that said it. He said, you know, one of these nights I'm going to take a shot at Jack Daniels and just go on stage. And then, and all of a sudden, it wasn't on TV.

• 13:36Speaker 06

  Once again, you know, we didn't have YouTube, so it was sitting next to me. I was thinking, well, if he can do it, I can do it. So, um, I knew that I was a baby step kind of guy, so I had, rather than just doing it, I transferred to Emerson, which was more of a performance school, so. And then I just went there and I just, every class I could get up in front of the class, I would do it, no matter how nervous I was. And I was a really shy, withdrawn, really withdrawn kid. And, um, I just forced myself to do that. And every time I did it, even if it didn't go well, I felt good that I did it. Then I started to like it. And, um, I started doing radio. Because radio was a good baby step between performing and being funny to like a live crowd, because it was like I was on a microphone, there was an audience, but I couldn't see

• 14:21Speaker 06

  them, I couldn't hear them.

• 14:26Speaker 04

  Next up, Edward Thorp. Edward was one of the world's best blackjack players and investors, and his hedge funds were profitable every year for 29 years. He is the author of Beat the Dealer, Beat the Market, and A Man for All Markets: From Las Vegas to Wall Street, How I Beat the Dealer and the Market.

• 14:53Tim Ferriss?

  Ed, I'd love to know, and if there's no answer that comes readily to mind, that's fine as well, but I'm 45, and I'm wondering, roughly 45. After some thinking, you know, I am roughly at the midpoint to my next target, which is to get to your age, and then from there to 120, or who knows where.

• 15:15Edward O. Thorp?

  You know, by then, the world will have changed a lot, and your odds will be a lot better.

• 15:19Tim Ferriss?

  One can hope. A boy can dream. So I hope that is the case, and that we're not living in some dystopian future where no one has any reproductive health. So I am hoping for the upside case. Let's assume that is true. What are some of the new beliefs or changes in beliefs?

• 15:36Tim Ferriss?

  That most positively impacted your second half? And of course, this is self-serving and it's possibly a hard question, but how did your thinking or priority or beliefs change after the midpoint that you think retrospectively looking at it have most benefited you or those around you?

• 15:57Edward O. Thorp?

  I started running probably when I was about 40, just a mile or so on a Saturday. And then as we talked about last time, I built it up. Then I started actually running marathons when I was 47. So I got into running very late, but marathoning taught me quite a bit about life in a way. Cause I began to say to myself, you know, life is a lot like running a marathon. And if you look at it that way, here I am at that age then, back in roughly around 50, here I am at the midpoint perhaps of a marathon. So if you're running a marathon, you don't sprint because you'll burn yourself out early. You are careful not to step in potholes. There are all kinds of other things that you need to take care of in order to get to the finish line.

• 16:41Edward O. Thorp?

  And you eventually learn, some of us learn how to get through the wall without there being a wall anymore, which took me seven marathons to figure that one out. So I thought to myself, well, the same thing about life. If you plan ahead, you can avoid a lot of problems that sink other people. Knee replacements, heart clogging up, catching diseases because you don't do proper vaccination, going to countries where there are horrible diseases to catch in the first place. You can't protect yourself fully, maybe that sort of thing. So thinking long-term is one thing that running a marathon teaches us. And so I tend to think long-term anyhow, but that was a great reinforcement.

• 17:23Tim Ferriss?

  In the last, say, five to 10 years, is there anything you've profoundly changed your mind about? Or it could be recently, I don't need to put a timeframe on it.

• 17:32Edward O. Thorp?

  To me, the value of being around good people.

• 17:37Edward O. Thorp?

  And not being around the few bad people is much higher than it ever was before. And the people in my life I've considered the most important and my actions with good people, the most important thing. You know, I enjoy other things, but I think at this age, you've basically done most of the stuff that you're going to do of any general broad significance. And so it's a time to reflect and to think about life and enjoy it. And if one has any wisdom to assure it to some extent.

• 18:12Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you seem as sharp and as lively as ever, as far as I can tell. I mean, you certainly have more vitality, however, I know that's a bit of a, maybe an italicized word, but life force than a lot of the forty-somethings I know. So whatever you're doing.

• 18:31Edward O. Thorp?

  Well, thank you.

• 18:32Tim Ferriss?

  Keep doing it. And is there anything else, Ed, that you'd like to add before we bring this conversation to a close?

• 18:41Edward O. Thorp?

  I think an important thing for everyone is to think about the world and society as us instead of me and to try to act that way. And to think longer term, think about how the things one does affects the people around them, not only right away, but down through the years. And it's, it might seem like it doesn't matter, but it does in a way. And a lot of these things will, that you make better now for the future, will actually benefit us a lot sooner than you might think otherwise. Pollution, for example, climate change is, is coming along, it's coming along pretty fast.

• 19:24Edward O. Thorp?

  And people might say, well, what do I care about what happens 50 years from now? But it's happening in increments. It'll be a little worse next year and a little worse the year after and so on. And you might not want to be around when it's really bad 50 or 100 years from now, but you might not care because you're only going to be alive another 10 years, let's say, if you're a pretty old person. But still, these things come along sometimes faster than you think and in ways that you don't expect. And so it's wise, I think, to just try to make the world a better place in any way you can, even though you might not reap all the benefits.

• 19:56Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, here, here.

• 20:02Speaker 04

  Next up, Jason Portnoy. Jason served as the first chief financial officer of Palantir Technologies, and is the author of Silicon Valley Porn Star: A Memoir of Redemption and Rediscovering the Self.

• 20:22Speaker 08

  I changed everything.

• 20:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 20:24Speaker 08

  I changed everything. I changed my diet, I changed my sleep habits, I changed my workout habits, I changed the people I talked to, the work I did, I changed everything.

• 20:33Tim Ferriss?

  Let me ask a question that comes to mind. How much of that, if any, was consciously or subconsciously a desire and a renewed ability to look at yourself differently? Does that make sense? Like, sort of allowing you to regain maybe confidence or self-respect so that you could do the work necessary, right? When you change so many things, when you change everything, you're basically unrecognizable.

• 20:59Speaker 08

  Right.

• 21:00Tim Ferriss?

  Compared to the person that you were, behaviorally speak.

• 21:04Speaker 08

  I felt like it was out of necessity that I had been living with this set of beliefs of what would make me happy. I had been lying, I was full of shame, I was a danger of my career was at risk because I was taking bigger risks with what I was doing in terms of the philandering and stuff. And I was probably risking my health, I was probably risking my safety, I was definitely risking my marriage. Like, everything that I cared about was at risk. And so, I think I just didn't want to lose it all.

• 21:42Tim Ferriss?

  And that was 2000...

• 21:44Speaker 08

  It was early, early 2015.

• 21:46Tim Ferriss?

  Early 2015. At what point... So, I just have some notes here. These are, these are from your book. Two books, The Seed of the Soul.

• 21:55Tim Ferriss?

  And then that first one is Gary Zukavich. Zukavich. And then Healing the Shame That Binds You.

• 22:03Speaker 08

  Yeah, so those those came in later. I would say another book that was really instrumental when I was in the deepest part of my journey was Love Warrior by Glennon Doyle. So I mean, and I read so many books during that time, but the ones that really stuck out were Autobiography of a Yogi, Emmett Fox's books, and Glennon Doyle's book, Love Warrior. And Love Warrior, you want me to tell you?

• 22:30Tim Ferriss?

  Please.

• 22:30Speaker 08

  Yeah, Love Warrior. Glennon, you know, if you haven't read the book, she just shares her story and is very vulnerable. And I was in a very dark place and trying to figure out like, how did this happen to me? How did I get here? And there's some themes of that in her book as well. And it just really helped me feel less alone. And like, there was some kind of path that I could take to get out of this.

• 23:01Tim Ferriss?

  How did you end up coming back together with Anne Marie?

• 23:07Speaker 08

  So during that time, you know, she, at first, I thought we were getting divorced. Like, I just thought there was no way we're going to recover from this. And Melissa said, hey, Anne Marie, if you were engaged in this co-creation with Jason for so long, you must have been getting something out of it. You created this in your life, and I'm going to help you figure out why. It's the same message, right? The message is the same for everyone. And she recommended a book to the two of us called Women Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood.

• 23:45Tim Ferriss?

  Heard a lot about this book. I've never, I've never read it.

• 23:48Speaker 08

  It's a great book.

• 23:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 23:49Speaker 08

  And in that book, she talks about how women who are in families with an addicted parent, and Anne Marie's father suffered with alcohol and drug addiction when he was younger, when she was younger and he was younger. And

• 24:07Speaker 08

  They tend to get into relationships with other addicts or people who are not emotionally available in some way. And, you know, addiction definitely does that to a person. And so, as odd as it sounds, it was a very comfortable place for Anne Marie to be with a guy who was not fully emotionally present. Because if I had been fully emotionally present, it would have been very uncomfortable.

• 24:34Tim Ferriss?

  Unfamiliar.

• 24:35Speaker 08

  Unfamiliar and uncomfortable. And so, we read that book, and it really changed the way we thought about everything that was happening. And she started to understand this as well. But she was also, she also got very clear, you know, with her boundaries, like, you need to fix this. You need to climb out of this. I understand you're on a journey. I understand you have work to do. But if I ever feel like you're not working, and you're not taking this seriously, then we'll get divorced. It was that clear. And I was like, yes, ma'am. You know, like, I am going to do this. And I really wanted to get well. I didn't want to lose her, and I didn't want to lose my daughter.

• 25:18Tim Ferriss?

  When did Melissa reach out to Anne Marie? Or were they also having an ongoing?

• 25:25Speaker 08

  Ongoing, oh, yeah. When I started way back in 2010, when I started working with Melissa, Anne Marie started working with her around the same time. And we both still talk to her on a weekly basis. So she was, during that time, we had a lot of joint sessions during this time in early 2015. And then by August of 2015, we came back together. So I was only on retreat. It seems like a short amount of time. It was four, four and a half months. But it was really intense, and it felt like a very long time. And we both changed a lot during that time, me a lot more than Anne Marie. And we came back together. And have been together ever since, and it's been beautiful.

• 26:14Speaker 04

  Next up, Isabel Bengue. Isabel is a field primatologist and applied evolutionary ethologist who studies social behavior in animals, including humans, to understand our urgent challenges with each other and the planet.

• 26:36Tim Ferriss?

  So let's start with Bakho and Jiro. Who are Bakho and Jiro? Maybe you could paint a picture for us.

• 26:43Speaker 09

  I love this question. It was August 2010, and Bakho and Jiro are two males. And they were... One of them was kicking the other in the nuts.

• 26:58Tim Ferriss?

  Where I like to start all my interviews.

• 27:04Speaker 09

  Gently. Gently. There was no harm done. And don't do this at home. I should not start saying that. There was also some biting and other forms of physical touch, which may have looked to an entrained eye like fighting. But Bakho and Jiro were not fighting. They were playing. And Bakho and Jiro were in the depths of the jungles in Congo. And they are... They were not humans, but bonobo males. And this observation of these two males playing

• 27:48Speaker 09

  was, to me, really extraordinary. Because, let me give you some context after the "kicking in the nuts" comment. Bonobos are, together with chimpanzees, are living closest relatives. We have many other evolutionary relatives, but they're dead, they're extinct. So for us primatologists, it's really amazing to be able to observe the naturally occurring behavior of apes in the wild. It's difficult for many reasons, but they are still some alive, which is great. And I was following this wild group of bonobos for a long time, for many months. And of course, they don't usually meet other communities.

• 28:33Speaker 09

  And we can get into that. Why is it that typically, interactions are within a community? And then suddenly, the study group... You know, they have this way of traveling, which seems very, very intentional. And you can tell it when you observe it. They suddenly kind of switch onto, okay, we're going somewhere. And they cross the river, which typically demarcates their territory. And I was like, oh, God, where are they going? These guys are going somewhere, like, very intentionally. And they went into the territory of the neighboring community. So I was like, wow, something's gonna happen here. Because it doesn't happen very often. And in chimpanzees, when chimpanzees meet other communities, typically, they try not to,

• 29:18Speaker 09

  because it's aggressive. And you can have neighboring males that patrol the territory, and they will kill a male of the other territory, of the other community, sorry. And sometimes, not only kill, but also maim. For instance, they will take out their genitals. It's very, very... That's why this bonobo observation, I think, is poignant. Because there's this joke I cannot... Okay, I'll ask you. What's the most vulnerable part of the male anatomy?

• 29:48Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I think that...

• 29:50Speaker 09

  Well, it's a leading question.

• 29:51Tim Ferriss?

  It's a leading question, yes. I would imagine, you know, having a bonobo pull and poke my genitals would make me feel very vulnerable.

• 30:01Speaker 09

  Yes, right, but that's the point. Brilliant, I think that's the take home of this story. It is an extremely vulnerable part of the male anatomy. And it's actually used that as such in aggressive interactions. So that you actually use it in playful interactions. It's, I think, playing with a line of trust, vulnerability, and real-life risk. That's extremely interesting. It gets at the root of what play is. And so these males were playing. And they were males from different communities. So what kind of trust do you need to build in order to have this kind of interaction between males

• 30:45Speaker 09

  that don't usually live together or are related?

• 30:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's a very, uh, be a very unusual greeting among humans, right? To take a trip to Kansas City and walk up to a stranger and grab him by the balls.

• 31:00Speaker 10

  I, please do not do this at home.

• 31:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I don't recommend.

• 31:04Speaker 10

  Or anywhere. Yeah. Least of all outside home. Yes.

• 31:13Speaker 04

  Last but not least, a short clip from Sam Harris, neuroscientist and host of the Making Sense podcast. It comes from an experimental episode that features short clips from some of the best podcasters in the world, including Dr. Peter Attia and Ramit Sethi.

• 31:36Sam Harris?

  When we practice meditation, one of the things we learn is how to begin again in each moment. You notice that you're distracted. You've been lost in thought for who knows how long. And then suddenly you return to a clear witnessing of the contents of consciousness. You notice a sound, or the breath, or some other sensations in your body, or you see the present thought itself unraveling. And in this clear noticing of this next appearance in consciousness, we're training our minds. We're practicing a willingness to simply return to the present moment without judgment, without disappointment, without contraction,

• 32:21Sam Harris?

  with a mind that is standing truly free of the past. And it's always possible to recover this freedom, no matter what happens. Let's say you notice you're distracted, and rather than just observe the next sound or sensation, you're immediately plunged into self judgment. You're annoyed. You subscribe to this damn app, and you're supposed to be meditating, but you just spent the last five minutes thinking about something that you saw on television last night. But you can break this spell and begin again at any point by just noticing self judgment and frustration as appearances. And the truth is, they're as good as anything else you can notice when it comes to revealing the intrinsic freedom of consciousness.

• 33:06Sam Harris?

  Its openness, its centerlessness, its selflessness. Honestly, frustration, real frustration, a mind like a clenched fist, is just as good as the breath, or a sound, or even an expansive emotion like joy, if you'll just drop back and recognize what consciousness is like in that moment. Now, this ability to begin again has ethical force as well. It's actually the foundation of forgiveness. The only way to truly forgive another person, or oneself, is to restart the clock in the present. And this habit of mind allows for a resilience that we can't otherwise find.

• 33:51Sam Harris?

  And there are literally hundreds of opportunities each day to practice it. If you notice that a conversation with a friend, or a family member, or a colleague isn't going very well, or you're not having fun at a party, or you've been trying to get some work done, but you found that you've just wasted the last hour on the internet, or you're working out in the gym, but you haven't been making much of an effort. The moment you notice this ghost of mediocrity hovering over the present, you can fully exercise it just by beginning again, and then fully commit by relinquishing the past. There's no real reason why the next 10 minutes in the gym can't be the best you've had in years.

• 34:36Sam Harris?

  There's no real reason why you can't put this conversation that's almost over on a new footing by saying something that is truly useful. So the practice is to stop telling ourselves a story about what has been happening, and to fully connect with experience in this moment. Notice this present thought, this fear, this judgment, this doubt, this desire to be elsewhere, as an appearance in consciousness, and then just begin again.

• 35:13Tim Ferriss?

  And now here are the bios for all the guests. My guest today is a fan favorite, one of my favorites, Jack Kornfield. So Jack is one of the few people I have on speed dial if I hit particularly acute existential distress or anxiety. And this is roughly a two-year anniversary since we recorded an episode, which I suggest everyone listen to, right at the early stages of COVID. This was in March of 2020. So who is Jack? Jack Kornfield, trained as a Buddhist monk in the monasteries of Thailand, India, and Burma. He has taught meditation internationally since 1974 and is one of the key teachers to introduce Buddhist mindfulness practice to the West. Jack co-founded the Insight Meditation

• 35:57Tim Ferriss?

  Society in Barry, Massachusetts with fellow meditation teachers Sharon Salzberg and Joseph Goldstein. Goldstein? Goldstein. It's the German. It's the spending time in Germany that always messes me up there. And the Spirit Rock Center in Woodacre, California, which is stunning. I have spent some time there. We talked about that in our first conversation. Over the years, Jack has taught worldwide, led international Buddhist teacher meetings, and worked with many of the great teachers of our time. He holds a PhD in clinical psychology. And I just want to mention in aside here, one of the things that I love about you, Jack, and respect about you is that you spend time both in the deeply philosophical, I shouldn't say both, there are many stems to

• 36:37Tim Ferriss?

  this, the deeply contemplative, but also in the deeply clinical. And you've worked with many, many different patient groups. So I think that provides you with a very interesting and eclectic, broad-spectrum toolkit. So I just want to say that for people who may not be familiar with you. And jumping back in, you are also a grandfather, husband, and activist. Some of your current projects include MMTCP, a worldwide mindfulness teacher training, Cloud Sangha, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. This is another word that I have trouble with. Yeah, all right. Nailed it. S-A-N-G-H-A, a site offering access to expert mindfulness teachers online and a positive impact wisdom

• 37:21Tim Ferriss?

  Ventures Fund. His books have been translated into 22 languages and have sold more than 1.5 million copies. I have read many of them. They include A Wise Heart, subtitle, A Guide to the Universal Teachings of Buddhist Psychology, A Path with Heart, After the Ecstasy, The Laundry, one of my favorite titles, Teachings of the Buddha, The Art of Forgiveness, Loving Kindness and Peace, Bringing Home the Dharma, subtitle Awakening Right Where You Are. And his most recent book is No Time Like the Present, subtitle Finding Freedom, Love and Joy Right Where You Are. You can find him online, jackkornfield.com, that's K O R N F I E L D dot com, on Twitter at Jack Kornfield, Instagram, Jack underscore Kornfield.

• 38:08Tim Ferriss?

  So imagine yourself all alone on stage in front of 14,000 people staring directly at you. For many of us, probably most of us, that'd be a complete nightmare. But for my guest tonight, it's just another day at the office. The man you're about to meet is one of the most prolific and respected comedians in the world. He's done five hour long comedy specials, hosts one of the most popular podcasts of all time, and is the co-creator and star of the animated series F is for Family. Please welcome to the stage, Bill Burr.

• 38:42Tim Ferriss?

  My guest today is Edward Thorp. He is the author of the bestseller Beat the Dealer, which transformed the game of blackjack. His subsequent book, Beat the Market, co-authored with Sheen T. Kasuf, influenced securities markets around the globe. He's also the author of A Man for All Markets, subtitle From Las Vegas to Wall Street, How I Beat the Dealer and the Market. Thorpe was one of the world's best blackjack players and investors, and his hedge funds were profitable every year for 29 years. He lives in Newport Beach, California, and his website is edwardothorp.com.

• 39:16Tim Ferriss?

  My guest today, Jason Portnoy. Nice to see you. Who is Jason? Entrepreneur, venture capitalist and author. Jason Portnoy began his career at PayPal, working closely with technology icons like Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, Max Levchin and Reid Hoffman. He served as the first Chief Financial Officer, AKA CFO, of Palantir Technologies and later founded Oak House Partners, a top performing venture capital firm. Jason is sought after as a trusted advisor to technology company CEOs and has spoken on topics ranging from executive leadership to the intersections of technology and humanity. He holds engineering degrees from both Stanford University MS and the University of Colorado. That is BS, not BS's in. You guys should know what I mean by now.

• 39:59Tim Ferriss?

  His new book, which we will get to, is Silicon Valley Porn Star. What a title.

• 40:07Tim Ferriss?

  My guest today is Isabel Behncke. Let me spell that for you, per her Twitter handle, @isabel, I-S-A-B-E-L, last name B-E-H-N-C-K-E. Isabel is a field primatologist and applied evolutionary ethologist who studies social behavior in animals, that includes us humans, to understand our urgent challenges with each other and the planet. Isabel grew up at the foothills of the Andes Mountains in Chile, where she developed a lifelong love for nature and wildness, as well as culture and the arts. An explorer scientist, she is the first South American to follow great apes in the wild of Africa. She walked more than 3,000 kilometers, for us Yanks, that's roughly 1,864 miles, quite a few, in the jungles of Congo for her field research

• 40:52Tim Ferriss?

  observing the social lives of wild bonobo apes, who, together with chimpanzees, are our closest living relatives. Isabel documented how bonobos play freely in nature and has extended this research to show how human apes play at Burning Man, for instance, other festivals and in everyday life. Isabel has observed how play is at the root of creativity, social bonding and healthy development, findings that have relevance in education, innovation, complex risk assessment, freedom and many, many other places. Isabel, we'll see how I can screw up these titles and, of course, decree. Which is always a challenge. Isabel Holt, a Bachelor of Science in Zoology and a Master of Science in Nature Conservation, both from University College London, a Master

• 41:35Tim Ferriss?

  of Philosophy, an MPhil in Human Evolution from Cambridge University, and a PhD, although I think it's a Dr. Dr. Phil, that's not Dr. Phil, as in the daytime show host, something like that, PhD in Evolutionary Anthropology from Oxford University. She has won several distinctions for her public communication and knowledge integration, which ranges in format from TED, which was also, most recently, on the grand stage. So congratulations for that. Wired, the UN, BBC, where I think she won, or was nominated as having one of the most interesting interviews of 2020. I think she ranked number three. And Nat Geo to rural schools in Patagonia and traveling buses of schoolchildren in Cago. She is a Senior Fellow of the Grutter Institute, a TED Fellow, and currently advises the Chilean government

• 42:20Tim Ferriss?

  working on long-term strategies in science, technology, innovation, and knowledge for Chile's president. She can be found in Chile and New York City. You can find her on Twitter, like I mentioned, at Isabel Behncke, and on Instagram, Isabel underscore Behncke, B-E-H-N-C-K-E.

• 42:42Sam Harris?

  Hello, Tim Ferriss fans. This is Sam Harris. I've been on this podcast a couple of times before, and I'm also a frequent listener. I host my own podcast, Making Sense, and I also have an app called Waking Up, which I previewed here on Tim's podcast about three years ago. And it's been a major focus of mine ever since. As some of you might remember, my academic background is in neuroscience and philosophy. I also share Tim's interest in psychedelics, both in the current scientific research and in the occasional personal use. I've also spent a lot of time practicing various forms of meditation. When I was an undergraduate, I became interested in esoteric things like the nature of consciousness and

• 43:26Sam Harris?

  the nature of the self, both in what we can understand about them philosophically and scientifically, and in what can only be discovered about them through direct experience. And at that point, I dropped out of school for what became a full decade. I made many trips to India and Nepal, where I got a chance to study with some of the greatest meditation teachers who were alive at that time. This was in the late 80s and 90s. I also spent about two years on silent retreats, ranging in length from one week to three months. I eventually did go back to school, where I finished my degree in philosophy, and then I did a PhD in neuroscience. And while I've covered many other areas in my work since, I've written several books

• 44:08Sam Harris?

  and done hundreds of podcast episodes on a wide range of topics. I've always been most interested in those first questions about the nature of mind that sent me to Asia in the first place and into the silence of retreat. While questions about consciousness and the nature of the self may seem divorced from everyday concerns, they actually relate directly to the most fundamental causes of happiness and suffering, and to the larger question of what it means to live a good life, personally, psychologically, ethically, and even collectively, for whole societies. Waking up is where I fully explore these issues.

• 44:45Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half-page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered, or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.

• 45:30Tim Ferriss?

  And these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday. Type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday. Drop in your email, and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.