Silicon Valley OG shares crazy stories from Zynga early days + 3 business ideas

Episode 678: Sam Parr ( https://x.com/theSamParr ) and Shaan Puri ( https://x.com/ShaanVP ) talk to Siqi Chen ( https://x.com/blader ), the founder of Runway.com. — Show Notes: (0:00) Early days at Zynga (14:34) Business ideas (52:18) Touchy-feely class (1:07:24) Siqi’s favorite interview question (1:12:48) Insane growth of ElevenLabs — Links: • Limitless - https://www.limitless.ai/ • Rewind - https://www.rewind.ai/ • Runway - https://runway.com/ • Hoffman Institute - https://www.hoffmaninstitute.org/ • Pump - https://pump.fun/board • ElevenLabs - https://elevenlabs.io/ — Check Out Shaan's Stuff: • Shaan's weekly email - https://www.shaanpuri.com • Visit https://www.somewhere.com/mfm to hire worldwide talent like Shaan and get $500 off for being an MFM listener. Hire developers, assistants, marketing pros, sales teams and more for 80% less than US equivalents. • Mercury - Need a bank for your company? Go check out Mercury (mercury.com). Shaan uses it for all of his companies! Mercury is a financial technology company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group, Column, N. A., and Evolve Bank & Trust, Members FDIC — Check Out Sam's Stuff: • Hampton - https://www.joinhampton.com/ • Ideation Bootcamp - https://www.ideationbootcamp.co/ • Copy That - https://copythat.com • Hampton Wealth Survey - https://joinhampton.com/wealth • Sam’s List - http://samslist.co/ My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by The HubSpot Podcast Network // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  And they said, well, you shouldn't confuse revenue for success. So I said, well, you guys shouldn't confuse a lack of revenue versus us either. And then they got like, kind of upset.

• 0:10Sam Parr?

  Dude, this meeting, it goes in like the Silicon Valley Autistic Hall of Fame.

• 0:22Shaan Puri?

  What's up? We got our friend Ciki here, founder of Runway, back in the day, built a company, sold it to Zynga, built another company, sold it to Postmates, has gone viral many times. And there's a lot of people in Silicon Valley who you almost, it's like a film director. It's like, oh, they're working on a new project. You really want to know what they're doing? That's you, uh, cause you do things with taste. So excited to have you here. Do you, uh, do you have any good stories from early days of Zynga? Cause you sold a company to Zynga back when Zynga was the shit. Did you work with Mark Pincus? What's he like? Give me a good Zynga story.

• 0:55Speaker 00

  Okay, I have a great story, actually. How I came to report to Mark Pincus is actually, it's not a great story. I have like so many good Mark Pincus stories. So yeah, Zynga was my second, uh, my first company. And I joined as director of product owner studio.

• 1:07Sam Parr?

  Wait, can you give the background of Mark? So he marks like a Silicon Valley OG. Did he help, uh, fund Facebook to get off the ground? Was that his first big hit?

• 1:14Speaker 00

  He did. So, um, he and Reid Hoffman co-owned, bought the Six Degrees of Separation Patent from a company of six degrees. And he angel invested in Facebook and also licensed a patent, I believe, for more stock into Facebook.

• 1:28Shaan Puri?

  That patent was basically the, kind of the social networking patent, right? Like how, how we're, we're connected, six degrees of Kevin Bacon away from each other. And I think Reid, the story, there's some story where Reid and him realized that if this patent got in the hands of Microsoft or some big company, that they would be able to squish innovation by a startup, by like, holding this patent over their head. So they bought the patent, I believe, and just decided, we're not going to use it to stop anybody. And then they, I think, parlayed it into, to getting extra shares in Facebook, which is amazing.

• 2:01Speaker 00

  I think that's what happened, yeah. So. When I joined, I was Director of Products and my girlfriend and my wife, who I recently met, moved to China for some job work thing. And I was like three months into Zynga and I was like, I'm not really feeling it. It's not that fun. So I told them I was going to resign and move to China. And they said, hey, why don't we just give you this new job? You know, you can report to Eric Schreimeyer, one of the co-founders, and basically be head of product for the company. I said, no, that sounds fun. That sounds great. So I did that. So I reported Eric Schreimeyer. He was a co-founder of Zynga. And what happened is a month into the job, Eric Schreimer stopped showing up to work. Like, wouldn't respond to emails, wouldn't go to work.

• 2:43Speaker 00

  And I was like, what? And basically, that's when I reported to Mark and I was the head of products. And later, the punchline of the story is what I, the reason why he stopped showing up to work is I later found out that he decided to become a ninja. Pretty good reason.

• 3:05Shaan Puri?

  Not what I thought was going to be.

• 3:07Speaker 00

  He literally, he was like, he wanted to start a ninja dojo and he wanted to undergo ninja training. And so when I-

• 3:14Shaan Puri?

  What in the Napoleon Dynamite is this story?

• 3:17Speaker 00

  How's his ninja career now? I think he started another social games company.

• 3:24Shaan Puri?

  So, give us a, at the time, what was Zynga like? Was it like on top, was it king of the world at the time or was it on the downswing?

• 3:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, what's interesting on Zynga is they hired a bunch of people who are, used to be investment makers to be product managers there. Because it was just all about the numbers going up. It was highly analytical. So I went in and just the amount of like knowledge I had about growth. One of the things that really blew my mind, I think about a lot, is when I first had a commerce with Mark Pincus, early on, I think, maybe during the acquisition, I asked him, hey, what do you think about this like industry? It just seems really low mo. It's, it's hard to have a competitive mo here because it's just so easy to enter, you build a new game and for it to expand. And how defensible is it? And I think about his answer quite a bit because his, I was like, no, this is great.

• 4:15Speaker 00

  I want there to be more new entrants into the space because it's free R and D for me. And I just like, okay, that is, that blows my mind. That is next level because he was just so confident in his ability to execute. That like anyone who's gonna come in with some new idea, they can just like fast follow it and do a much better job of growing it, which is like what they did, right? Farm Bill wasn't a first farm game. Poker was the first poker game. And that they work really, really well, at least during the Facebook era.

• 4:43Sam Parr?

  Wait, did he have like Genghis Khan energy where he was like, is he a conqueror?

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, he did. He did. I mean, you know, we were working like eighty, ninety, a hundred hours a week, Kazinka. And that was kind of the norm.

• 4:57Sam Parr?

  It sort of seems like a waste of talent, though, to have that conqueror energy and do it in the lamest way possible. You know, like, yeah, like Farm Bill, like that's what he's like trying to do this on.

• 5:07Speaker 00

  Like a few billion dollars, a few billion dollars.

• 5:10Shaan Puri?

  There's a, there's a quote by Max Levchin. At the time, Max Levchin, who created PayPal, is by all accounts like a genius computer engineer. Single-handedly was like fighting fraud at PayPal and like with, as a one-man army, like withstood, you know, the attacks of all of these sort of financial scammers around the world. The guy's brilliant. And then his next startup, I think, was Slide. And it was making like widgets for MySpace and Facebook where you'd be like slideshows or SuperPoke where you throw like chickens at your friends when you wake up. Uh, you know, by pushing a button and it just slaps your friend with a chicken or something like that. And they go, what, what was your takeaway from Slide? Slide ultimately didn't fully work out. Sold to Google, I think, for a little bit, but he goes,

• 5:53Shaan Puri?

  be really careful what you choose to work on because everything can be optimized endlessly. So he's like, once we got in that, we could just sit there and optimize and just get the number of chicken slap per day up. So, you know, choose wisely. Should I be optimizing this chicken slapping or should I be doing something else? And I've always thought about that because I found that myself falling into the same trap. No matter what I'm doing, if I'm selling little widgets, my life becomes about selling widgets and I can optimize that to infinity. And people do, if you go look at how any company works, that's what they've done. They've optimized it to infinity.

• 6:24Sam Parr?

  Dude, when my wife worked at Facebook years and years ago, I remember like I was talking to all of her coworkers at a party and I was like, oh, you guys are amazing. You guys are so smart. What are you working on? And they explained it to me, but it boiled down to they're trying to convince Brazilians to put more stickers on their photos, like the, there was like one dog that had a long tongue. Do you guys remember that fucking dog?

• 6:44Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:45Sam Parr?

  Like they're trying to convince that fucking dog sticker to put, or Brazilians.

• 6:49Shaan Puri?

  It was like the face, it was like the face filter thing when Snapchat came out and then if you opened up your mouth, a giant tongue would come out.

• 6:54Sam Parr?

  Dude, I felt like, and they explained that to, like, I kind of, I was like, wait, so you're just trying to get like Brazilians to use more stickers? So they share more photos? I felt like a cartoon. It was like, I was like, what? Like, you know what I mean? I was like, what are you guys doing?

• 7:07Speaker 00

  I also have a Max Levchin and Slide story. Uh, this goes back seven, 10 years, so I don't think they'll mind anymore, but um, when I, this is when I first moved to the city and I had this app on Facebook was blowing up. And so some guy who worked with Keith's boy, Keith's boy was, I think, the CEO of Slide at the time. But I said, hey, we like your app. You want to meet, you know, the team? I said, oh, my God, this is amazing. I mean, you're out of college. It could be Max Levchin. So I go in, we had a meeting at noon and I will go to the slide office and no one was there. Everyone was out for lunch. And I talked to receptionists. I said, I am here to meet Max and Keith. And they're like, oh, they're at lunch. Uh, they'll be back in half an hour. I said, okay. So we sit there for half an hour. And then they walk in and they act like they kind of forgot there was a meeting. Um, but we go into meeting room.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  And we just started talking about what I wanted to do with this app I build, whether I wanted to build it independently or maybe like join Slide.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  And they asked me how much I wanted for it. I said, well, I have a co-founder, so $2 million, I would probably do it. The million dollars each. I kind of lasted the number. I'm like, what? Like, I looked at the valuation of app data and like the amount of money we're generating. It's not a huge ask, but it's fine. It's too much. My friend, Akil, built Superpoke, which I recently bought. And they said verbatim, you know, we bought Superpoke and he's easily the 18th or 19th most important person in the company now. Out of a company of like 60 people. Uh, I said, okay, that's a compelling offer. And then I said, uh, and I said, yeah, this is probably not gonna happen. And I said, you know, we're profitable. We were making a bunch of money from ads, so it's cool if you don't want to buy it.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  And they said, uh, well, you shouldn't confuse revenue for success. And at this point, I was just like really upset. So I said, well, you guys shouldn't confuse a lack of revenue versus, I see either. And then they got like, kind of upset.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  So then, so then it got really weird. Oh, I forgot to mention, like, I just started a meeting, they said something like, hey, you know, there's a recession coming up to each other. And they're like, yeah, there's a recession coming up. And then he said, I can't wait to buy all these shitty companies for cheap. Like, we're in the room. I were like, what? What the hell?

• 9:17Shaan Puri?

  Dude, this meeting, it goes in like, the Silicon Valley Autistic Hall of Fame.

• 9:23Speaker 00

  At the end, Keith was like, hey, Keith, hey, Max, what was your body fat percentage in the, in the, in the paid out days? And Max was like, 8%. And I was like, yeah. And I'm like, look, I'm not the fittest person, but I'm not selling you my company because you're like, you're fitter than me. Like, what, what's happening? So that was like, meeting with them. But the thing that made it all make sense, made sense, is the next week, I was talking to my, one of my friends, John, who also was, had a company building apps. And he comes up to me at some party, he goes, see, Keith, man, like, you won't believe this, so I just had a meeting with Sly last week. I'm like, really? He's like, yeah, it was so weird, because he started a meeting, talking about how there's a recession coming up, and they can all these companies are cheap. I was like, oh, my God, is the script.

• 10:06Shaan Puri?

  Dude, it was, in episode one of this podcast, I think, my buddy Sui told almost the same story. He goes, he gets invited to Slide, he sits with Max and Keith. And what they said was, they were like, you should, we want to hire you. And he's like, I don't really want a job. Like, I have, my app's good. I thought you wanted to, like, maybe buy it or something. And then he opened the door, and he goes, you see all those guys out there? They, they're gonna build your app in like, six days, if you don't take this offer. And he was like, okay, I'm not interested in this even more now. Like, this is horrible. My app is stupid. What he said, he goes, his app at the time was called like Superlatives, it was like, you would name your friend like, most likely to, you know, go to jail or something. He's like, you're threatening me that you're gonna take my

• 10:47Shaan Puri?

  app? I think my app is stupid. The fact that you think my app is cool, makes me think you're stupid. That's what he thought in his head.

• 10:56Sam Parr?

  Siki, who did you meet? I love talking to people who have been around a bunch of these folks before they kind of quote made it. Who is a tycoon or a big shot now that you're shocked by because of when you knew them when you guys were both younger, you're like, oh, I can't believe they actually developed into such an amazing business person?

• 11:17Speaker 00

  I don't know that I met a lot of people who weren't great, that I think were great, that were huge later.

• 11:25Shaan Puri?

  Who's someone you met that wasn't huge then, but you knew? And why did you know?

• 11:31Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, I mean Drew Houston.

• 11:33Shaan Puri?

  When did you meet him?

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Dropbox was like 10 people. It was 2000, late 2007, early 2008. And we were just talking about growth. It's like they had this like college referral plan. So Drew Houston, I mean, Anish, who's chairman of Andreessen, like he was just a founder of building apps on mobile phones, right? And he would come to my office and we'd talk about it. Oh, probably the best one is Chris Wansfroth.

• 11:59Shaan Puri?

  Who's that?

• 12:00Speaker 00

  He's co-founder of GitHub. And he was a contractor at PowerSet, which was like this job I took when I first moved to the city. But he was actually a contractor for my first company, Serious Business. I had him build this translation layer between Facebook markup language and MySpace markup language, just like after, and he was really good at it. And I distinctly remember that we were at 21st Amendment. Yeah, or actually the bearer, a brewery, doesn't matter. But I gave him a full-time employment offer in early 2008, and he was considering it. And the same night, when we're talking about, he said, you know, DHH just put rails on GitHub. And so I think I might work on GitHub full-time.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  And I was thinking in my head, and I was like, the smart thing for me to do is actually shut down my Facebook days business and go work for you, but I didn't say that. But I was thinking.

• 12:54Sam Parr?

  Have did you have you had any massive angel investment wins because you're around the hoop for so long? And so and early?

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, the best, I mean, the best one by far is Amplitude. And that one was, I was introduced through, actually, yeah, someone at Zynga, Matt Ako, who runs Data Collective now. And he introduced me for his first angel investment after I sold to Zynga. And I like 10x in like 12 months. And so I was playing with play money up after that. And he introduced to this team that we ended up being the fourth customer of for analytics platform. It's now Amplitude. And we used it, we thought this is great. This is the best thing we thought we've seen since the Zynga internal tools. And I managed to get into the seed round and that IPO that, you know, we ended up being a 400x return on that. Which is pretty great.

• 13:45Sam Parr?

  Amazing. Let's jump in with ideas, opportunities. You're an idea guy. What do you think are some cool ideas or opportunities that that you would want to be working on right now?

• 13:54Speaker 00

  So I built a Zapier and it's basically categorizes my emails with G P D four into different labels. So I have this very long prompt and automation. And I also use a practical same box, which also does something similar to filters by emails. But there's been no good version of email manager software that I'm able to customize a prompt and train it. So I want to say, hey, here's the things related to my kids. And there's no keywords necessarily, you can, you have to kind of read it. It's like some email to my babysitter or or an email from the school. And if it's related to my kids, I want you to put it in this folder. And the idea is I want an inbox for like these different contexts.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  And so people are doing different kinds of email categorization. What's missing is there's no way to train it. So I think building some way for you to, for a product to understand all of the content about your life and organize your stuff. Starting with inbox will be really handy for me. And I've seen at least 12 companies do this and no one has done a really great job of it.

• 14:57Sam Parr?

  I just tested this product. Have you guys heard of this? I can't think of the name right now, but it was this thing where I, it sounds insane, where it recorded my screen for weeks at a time. And it would see how I'm typing, what I'm saying to people. And it would give me feedback on the productivity of my day and how I can improve it. Have you guys seen this? It started with an R, I think, is it called a?

• 15:19Shaan Puri?

  Elect or something, isn't it?

• 15:21Sam Parr?

  Yeah.

• 15:21Shaan Puri?

  Rescue time?

• 15:22Sam Parr?

  No, Sean, you're right.

• 15:24Shaan Puri?

  It's that guy.

• 15:25Sam Parr?

  The guy who started it's like a, like a, he's like a guy. He's like been around.

• 15:30Shaan Puri?

  He was doing like a pendant or something, right? At one point and then now it's a.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  Oh, rewind then.

• 15:34Sam Parr?

  Rewind, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Rewind.ai, is that it?

• 15:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, they stopped working on it. Now it's called Limitless and they're just working on the pendant now.

• 15:42Sam Parr?

  Yes, I was tinkering with rewind and the promise it, it's not there yet. But the promise of this is, is, was amazing. I like, I was like so into this. And it's kind of describing what you're, what you're just explaining because we're having to use Zapier and OpenAI or ChatGPT to like, kind of duct tape this all together. Their premise was amazing and that is exactly what I'm looking for.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  I got a third one, which is like a lot spicier, but you know, like this is not a ventrable thing, but you know, just character AI and chai and all of these like chatbots that really people are using for sexy chats. I think like someone could, and these things print money, by the way, like they immediately generate millions of dollars a month.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  I thought if, if I were just in it just to like print money, the thing I would make is something that is kind of like Tinder. But basically everything is AI generated. So it's not like, oh, you're creating a robot, but it's a fake dating app where everyone is attractive and is super into you. And then you can like, then, then you can go off of your Tinder app and go on Instagram and have an Instagram account on actual Instagram. It's owned by the, the, the person that you met on your fake Tinder app.

• 16:53Sam Parr?

  Sick, do you know who Ty Lopez is? He's like the guy who had the infomercial that was like here in my garage.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  I do know Ty, who, who he is, yeah.

• 17:00Sam Parr?

  So Ty, one accuse, he came on MFM years ago and an accusation that I learned about him based off of the comments on YouTube is that years and years before he was, whatever he was famous for, he owned dating apps and the accusation, accusation was that all of the users were completely fake and that it was guys in the Philippines like running it and doing exactly what you're describing.

• 17:26Speaker 00

  That's true of the majority of dating apps.

• 17:29Sam Parr?

  What do you mean?

• 17:29Speaker 00

  That's just like standard offered a procedure, like plenty of fish. You know, like a seeking arrangement like that is their business model.

• 17:41Sam Parr?

  They're like.

• 17:42Speaker 00

  And in fact.

• 17:43Sam Parr?

  Outsource men acting as women.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's also like the webcam industry like like they up until OpenAI. The companies with the most advanced AI technology is going to be one of these companies. Because they are better at creating chatbots than anyone. They have the most advanced technology. I'm not kidding. Like, I know people who work there or run it.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  They've just developed better chatbot technology than anyone and.

• 18:07Shaan Puri?

  That'd be so funny if that's where AGI starts. Actually, it's not OpenAI. It's none of these labs. It's like, whatever. Some of these like webcam sites.

• 18:17Sam Parr?

  That's not a crazy idea. I mean, isn't that how it typically has been where a lot of like the vice industries are the ones pushing the pushing the envelope?

• 18:25Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a transformative for OnlyFans, right? Like, I don't know if you read, but like there's, you know, you're a big influencer on OnlyFans and you have an army of 100 people who are like typers or chatters. Right?

• 18:36Shaan Puri?

  And the funny thing about them is they're not just chatters that are flirting. They're also basically salesmen. So what they're doing is they're chatting to try to upsell you until that get buy this video. Buy this photo. I don't know exactly. Buy the subscription, whatever the the thing is, but they're they're not just customer support. They're actually sales, but they need to come across. Like they're the original person, which is just hilarious.

• 18:58Sam Parr?

  What do you think that office environment is like?

• 19:03Speaker 00

  So I actually I know someone who works in that and it's just normal. It is like the most boring cubicle, normal office environment they've ever seen.

• 19:14Shaan Puri?

  That's almost better than if it was weird. The the other thing with the dating apps, I think that they did was. I remember seeing this study about match.com because if you're a guy on match.com, you would basically send out, you know, 30 messages and you'd get, you know, one back or whatever. And what they would do is they realized that a lot of guys' accounts would go inactive because they're not getting replies. And so what they would do is they would basically send, they would show an active person 30 inactive profiles, knowing that that inactive person is. Not there to reply, but that that will be the notification for that person to come back and reactivate their subscription. They have to pay to go read their inbox and to be able to reply. And so the it's almost intentionally a horrible experience for the person who's there trying to find somebody

• 19:59Shaan Puri?

  in order to reactivate all the churned members and they would do they would basically in a the first hundred matches that they would show you, you know, something like fifty, sixty, seventy percent of those matches were all just inactive people. They wanted you to send a notification to to make them come back.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  That sounds like a Zynga training PM.

• 20:16Shaan Puri?

  Dude, I went to the Zynga office once back in the like heyday. It was the craziest office I've ever seen. Sam, did you ever go to this thing?

• 20:23Sam Parr?

  Yes, it was right. It was like it shared a building or was next door to Airbnb and it had a huge bulldog in the front, right? And I think at one point, I think they I think they owned the building and I think the building was worth at one point more than the company like, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars. Why? What? What did you think of the office, Sean?

• 20:41Shaan Puri?

  Well, you would go in, there's a giant tunnel, like an LED tunnel you would walk through just to enter. And then when you're there, first of all, there was dogs everywhere. And it was like everybody, it was bring your dog to work. There was just like herds of dogs running around. It was insane. And we met the chef and the chef, like the food operation was more sophisticated, just the cafeteria was more sophisticated than any company that I'd ever I'd ever been a part of. Like just the food part was better than my actual company. So like they had a staff of sixty people on the culinary team. They had a roof on the top where they're growing all the vegetables. He had like a giant fridge that was like the size of like a swimming pool you'd walk in and there was cows hanging upside down because they had their own butcher

• 21:22Shaan Puri?

  process. They they didn't serve soda. They only brewed their own sodas, like everything was soup to nuts, custom. And like, like just so insanely sophisticated for a cafeteria program. I was like, man, if the food is like this, I don't even want to know what the actual, you know, like teams that do the work are. And I walked into one PM thing and it was like a stock market, dude, his screen had so many metrics, fine tuned in real time, where they were running so many tests at a time. And it was like you said, Zeke, like it looked to me from the outside like, you know, the most data driven operation I had ever really seen, you know, I knew about what we did, but what we did looked like, you know, cavemen compared to what what they were doing in terms of sophistication of data.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  The the food thing reminds me like I was the person who did a petition for us to serve real bacon. And after a few months, we finally started to serve real bacon because we never had real bacon. It was only turkey bacon. Because, you know, Mark Pincus didn't like to kill pigs. But yeah, like, one of the things that people did at Zynga in the product org is we had PM on call, and I've never seen this on any other organization. The PM on call for every game would daily send an analysis of what changed day over day. And so if there's a drop, then you would segment it. And so, oh, my God, there's like a anomalous like 50% drop in Mexico for Farmville. And we're not sure why, because usually on Wednesdays at 2, it shouldn't be like this. And it lasted three hours long. And they would have to explain, oh, it's because the World Cup is happening.

• 22:46Sam Parr?

  What comes, what comes first? We were with Mr. Beast a few weeks ago, and I had the same question, but he wasn't able to articulate or answer it. What comes first when you're that data or analytic oriented? Does it, are you that way and scale comes because of that? Or are you, can you only behave that way because you have scale?

• 23:05Speaker 00

  So it depends on the environment. For, if it's a data friendly environment like Facebook is, then like Facebook platform is where virality lets you grow from zero to a billion, then data is all that matters. But you could see in the, in the experience of Zynga that that didn't translate to the mobile industry. Mobile was less about virality. It was just difficult distribution, a lot more about creativity. And that's why Supercell had such a creative advantage because they actually built very fun new games. So I think it's the completely dependent environment. If it's hard to get early distribution, then scale makes it, makes data more important. But if it's quite difficult to get early distribution, then you want to be creative, innovative and brand and creativity matters a lot more.

• 23:48Shaan Puri?

  Do you remember any like random game change, like color red to blue or flashing lights or whatever? That just generated like $10 million overnight?

• 23:57Speaker 00

  I always remember thinking that like the best way to generate $30 million overnight is just to like, say, hey, it's going to take you $10 just to unlock the game today. Like we could just like make a not payable and people pay. One of the more interesting ideas is this idea of crew. So we had this idea of collecting materials and you ask people materials. One of the mechanics that we invented at Zynga is this idea of crew where you for whatever thing you want to lock, you have to get at least like 20 people to help you, unique people. Because what that did is what we saw in the data is that when you do materials, you ask same two people over and over again. But if we have a unique spread, then that increases this distribution.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  And that ended up being like a pretty large boost in the AUs. Another thing that we saw is like just the power segmentation. And so there was this one day where our, our numbers went down anonymously. And I had to figure out, well, is it like this channel or that channel? Turns out there was a one particular typo bug in the drop rate of this particular treasure that was creating a lot of opportunities for people to share. And so you just spend all day doing things like that. And so it's rarely something like huge, but it's all, all of the details added together. That makes a difference, is it?

• 25:16Shaan Puri?

  What were the other business ideas or opportunities that you think are exciting right now?

• 25:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I was, I actually asked Sam Altman to make this, but I don't know how long they're going to take. But I'm doing a lot of medical research. What? What did you say?

• 25:31Shaan Puri?

  He asked Sam Altman to make this product, he said.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Oh, I thought, I thought you were like, oh, you had Sam Altman make a list for you to talk about. I was like, no, oh, no, no.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  We're not that tight. But no, I was doing a bunch of medical research and I noticed that you can't access paywalled articles. And so I really wish someone would make a version of deep research that lets you enter my, your, your paywall credentials. So you can get full task access. And this goes further, I think there's just so much data behind auth walls, paywalls that you can't get to. And you can only search on the open web. And the more private data you can get access to, the more useful these agents become. So that's like probably number. Number one thing I've been thinking about.

• 26:18Sam Parr?

  What's the name of that company that starts with an R? It's based in England. Sean, we've talked to him about him a bunch. It's like an acronym. Anyway, it's a, an academic publishing company in England. And it's like really controversial because I think it has like the second highest profit margin of all publicly traded companies in the world behind public storage. And the shtick behind it and why everyone hates it is because researchers at universities don't get paid anything for this. In fact, oftentimes they have to pay tuition in order to even go to these places, but they take your research and they put it behind like a $30,000 a year paywall. And so it's a very frustrating industry.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a, that's a whole industry, right? Elsevier, I think, is the biggest one, and there's a bunch of controversy around that. And yeah, all of these are extremely hard, our merchant businesses, they charge an arm and a leg for access. The researchers get paid nothing. The peer reviewers get paid nothing. All they're doing is just like taking the text and copy and paste it and putting it somewhere and maybe like printing it into a journal.

• 27:19Shaan Puri?

  So how would this work? You're talking about like, you told Sam Altman to say, hey, can I just give ChatGPT my credentials? And then it can go login for me and use that information when I ask it questions. So that's, ChatGPT would have to do it. How could a founder, well, how would a founder get around that? Or how would they do this?

• 27:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, you wouldn't need access to O3, the full model first, because that's what Open Research is based on. But I mean, it's not terribly difficult to create something like a deep research. There was a company called, there is a company called GenSpark. So I'm friends with the founder, GenSpark. He used to be VP of Search at Baidu, which is the Google of China. And they made a version of deep research just using a different model. And so that's relatively easy to build. I think the storage of the credentials and logging in is a little bit more tricky.

• 28:08Shaan Puri?

  Right. It also just seems like somebody could just create like Science Pal or something like that. It's like specifically for researchers and it's a chat GPT like interface, but it's specifically trained on or going to access all of the journals, all of the, all of the academic research out there for you and just do like a vertical thing. Isn't there like a Google for doctors that's like this, like Lumo or something like that?

• 28:29Speaker 00

  There is. So there's, uh, so I'm deep in this space. There's a company called Elicit. There's a company called, uh, SciSpace. And what they allow you to do is they let you search abstracts where available. And also you can upload individual PDFs too, which also chat GPT allows you to do. But there's nothing I've seen that is lets you, that's indexes the full text of all these journals, uh, with your credentials.

• 28:52Sam Parr?

  And why are you so interested in, why, what's all this research for? Is it for, uh, I, I, is it your daughter? And if it is, what's the story behind that?

• 29:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. So my daughter was diagnosed with a rare brain tumor last September. Um, and we've been doing everything we can to find new treatments for this. Because it's so rare and you really get a deep insight into the sentence and the structure of the, of the medical, uh, community. And one of the big learnings is that what is available as standard of care? Meaning that's what's available if you go to a hospital or you talk to a doctor and what is available at the frontier? There's a huge gap already. And then further, when you have a rare disease, just amount of research and data and treatments available is also just thin. Because you need to have like enough critical mass for, for the research to be worth it. So they can recoup the, uh, research costs.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  And the other interesting thing that we've learned is that, uh, the IP issues are really weird. So for example, there's this, uh, drug that is FDA approved, non-prescription. It's been out since the seventies to treat pinworms. And over the past 20 years, there's a huge amount of compelling data. This might be a pretty good treatment for different kinds of cancer. And there's been no clinical trials for it because there is no money for it. Because you can't patent a pinworm drug. And so all the money, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars are going to new molecules that are patentable, even if things are already available. And so once you get into EBITDA, you're like, wow, this is super, super broken.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  And so, yeah, I'm doing a lot of primary research in order to find repurposed drugs that might already exist that could treat a distally rare brain tumor.

• 30:34Sam Parr?

  It's, you know, there's, obviously, this is super serious and I'm sorry you're going through everything, but also there's like an interesting logistical thing of like, wait, so you are able just to just research potential cures or ways to help your daughter on your own and come up with a solution? I mean, is that like what you hope the outcome like?

• 30:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, so there's, I'm not the first founder type who's been in this situation, right? So the co-founder of Clubhouse, Rohan, his daughter has a rare genetic disease, her name's Lydia, and he runs the Lydia Foundation, and he's going so far as manufacturing his own drugs, right? For very rare diseases, you can do a lot. There is other people I've met have done similar things, like N of one cures exist. And so you can go, this is what I mean, like, if you're sufficiently motivated and there's no one more motivated than a dad with a sick kid, you could do, you can go so much further than what is available as standard of care. And so even the last time we met with our primary care team, they were proposing like

• 31:39Speaker 00

  two particular paths, one involving like pretty aggressive surgery and radiation, another involving this like drug. I proposed a third path and they were discussing it. And this is like neurosurgeons and clinicians that came back a week later, it's like, actually, your path being more sets. And the reason I was able to do that is like, because this disease is so rare, I am like more knowledgeable about the disease than anyone in the room because they have to like study 50 different cancers, right?

• 32:07Sam Parr?

  Wow, that's, that's pretty incredible. Also.

• 32:10Shaan Puri?

  My experience has been that the doctors, once you get off of the kind of standard of care, and this is maybe I'm projecting just from like, you know, I just had a knee injury and I was asking the doctor, I was like, hey, like, would PRP or stem cells, like, is there anything, should I take, what's a peptide? Can I put a peptide in there? And he's like, you know, there's not a lot of evidence, you know, that's not part of the protocol. You don't have great evidence. And he was sort of like, my hands are tied. He's an orthopedic surgeon. He's just like, you know, my hands are, I can only recommend what I can recommend. You could do those things. Ah, I don't know. And so then I felt like, you know, I'm on my own here. Have you, once you do this path, are you just outside of the medical system? Basically, are you outside of your standard chain of command with your doctors?

• 32:54Shaan Puri?

  And you have to get your own system set up?

• 32:56Speaker 00

  That's a great question. And I've had an almost similar conversation in the last meeting I was just describing. And so I saw it play out in real time. So the neurosurgeon said, hey, when we did this operation, when we did it for this reason, do we for some other reason, it's not part of the standard of care? But our primary clinician, she is like, she runs, he's a principal investigator of one of the clinical trials. The only, one of two that treats this disease. And she was like, yeah, you're right. We don't have a lot of evidence because there hasn't been a lot of research into the tumor. And so sometimes you have to argue for first principles. And if it's a fairly rare disease, they're more open to be more creative. And in our case, our clinician was able to convince a neurosurgeon, this was the right path, or at least it's worth trying.

• 33:41Speaker 00

  And she told us she was excited to have a partner who seems well informed and is willing to think outside of the box. And I straight up said, I do not care what the standard of care is. I think the standard of care is crap. And she basically said, yeah, I think so too. I just can't say that.

• 33:56Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 33:56Sam Parr?

  Dude, and that's pretty cool that you're in San Francisco too, where hopefully you think that like, the open mindedness or the early adopter mindset, like even trickles out to like the doctors and things like that. That's pretty cool that you're around a doctor who's like willing to try some crazy stuff or what's crazy to a lot of people.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  So to answer Sean's question, like if you do find your own drug, you do have to like show enough research and be well informed enough that someone is willing to prescribe it off label on a compassionate use basis. And so you just needed to convince a doctor, a one doctor. And so if you can't find one, you can find others who's willing to do that. And then you're in, you're in the clear. And it's a lot easier if it's like a fairly serious rare disease.

• 34:35Shaan Puri?

  Can you tell the story about you tweeted out about your daughter's condition? And then this crazy crypto turn of events happened where someone created a coin and then millions, maybe tens of millions, I don't even know how much money was raised. And then people got mad at you. People were speculating on this thing. I don't even understand it. Can you explain what was going on and also just explain? Is this just, was there just degenerate gambling? Or did you maybe stumble upon a novel way that people might fund research in the future? I don't know which one of the two it is.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I have a better idea which one it is after some reflection on it. So.

• 35:12Shaan Puri?

  Okay, so explain what happened first.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, uh, Christmas, I was going to Japan to ski with some friends and the family. And I was on the flight and I had a plan to start a GoFundMe for this lab. The Hinkerson Lab in University of Colorado. So we were donating money to them. Once this happened because they're the only lab in North America that researches this particular tumor called the craniopharyngioma. And the treatment that we're on, they found. So I thought, okay, for Christmas, I thought it'd be great to do a GoFundMe, use my network and raise some money for this lab. So I tweeted this thread with this GoFundMe link. And that we ended up raising about a quarter million dollars for a lab, which is like, I think the biggest donation up to that point.

• 35:54Speaker 00

  But what happened is some people started asking about, hey, can I donate crypto? And so I said, okay, uh, I posted my ENS, right? My Ethereum name system address. And people started donating a little bit of ETH. And then some other people said, hey, do you have a Sol address? Cause we're on Solana and I didn't have a Sol address. I was aware what Solana is, but I never touched it. And so the next day, once I landed, I created my first Solana wallet. I created this address and I tweeted it out. And basically what happened.

• 36:29Sam Parr?

  By the way, are you big in the crypto world? Why were all the crypto guys doing this for you? Just because, what's the motivation other than it's good?

• 36:36Speaker 00

  So I, I, it didn't occur to me, I thought it was people, I had like 77,000 followers at a time. Uh, and I'm not big in the crypto world. I've like been on and off active in crypto since 2017, but never in a major way. Um, I, I, I'm not a crypto account that people follow. Uh, but I found out why people did this, uh, later. And this answers a question of Sean, like, is this gambling or is this something else? Uh, but anyway, I posted a soft soul address and basically an hour later, I looked at my wallet and the wallet said $400,000 and it was zero an hour before. Uh, so I'm looking at like what is going on? And it turns out, so someone created a coin called pump on pump dot fun, which

• 37:19Speaker 00

  is a platform where you can create a coin in literally like 30 seconds. And I was on ETH, right? And I haven't acted in crypto. This wasn't a thing. Creating a new token on Ethereum was like a whole process. Now they shortened it to 30 seconds.

• 37:33Sam Parr?

  Pump dot fun. Is that?

• 37:35Speaker 00

  Pump dot fun. Yeah.

• 37:37Shaan Puri?

  Have you seen this business by the way?

• 37:38Sam Parr?

  No, that's like-

• 37:39Shaan Puri?

  These guys made like $500 million of profit last year, like more than that, I think.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  More than that. Yeah.

• 37:45Sam Parr?

  And, and so you click a button and you make your own coin. And obviously in the name, there's no hiding that the point of this is that it's a pump scheme. Pump and dump scheme, right? They made $500 million?

• 37:56Speaker 00

  At least, at least.

• 37:58Shaan Puri?

  That's just their take specifically.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  That's just like the majority of the traffic on Solana. And so people are basically uh, creating these new coins and trading them, trying to write it. And it's basically uh, musical shares, right?

• 38:11Sam Parr?

  Have you guys gone to this website? It's crazy. It looks like a Geo City website. Like there's like flashing banners. This is insane.

• 38:17Speaker 00

  It's all real time.

• 38:19Shaan Puri?

  Like yesterday during the Super Bowl, uh, somebody created, for, for Dave Portnoy, this sort of bar stool, created jail stool.

• 38:27Sam Parr?

  Jail stool.

• 38:28Shaan Puri?

  And then jail stool ran up to like a hundred million dollars or something like that. But like he said, it's, it's musical chairs. So you're buying, trying to catch one of these thousand X waves, but it's going to dump. And you just gotta know when you're going to get off the train. And then if you wait too long or you're the one who comes in late, you lose. So it is a, it's like being at a roulette table or whatever, where you're, you're just throwing chips at the table, trying to, trying to hit.

• 38:50Sam Parr?

  Oh my god.

• 38:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like the Trump coin, except you can create it in like 10 seconds, 30 seconds. But anyway, that's why people created this coin is because you're looking for these new narratives to gamble on, right? And the more interesting, the more viral seeming a narrative is, the more valuable it becomes. If you're in early, it could really pump. So anyway, it was $400,000 and I tweeted a screenshot. There's this, there's a whole tweet sort of thread where I was like, what is going on? And I kept on adding those to the tweet thread with screenshots on my wallet. And so it was $400,000. I was like, what is happening? And your friend explained, someone created this coin called Mira and there's a billion tokens. And they sent me, someone bought half the supply and just sent it to my wallet.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  So I had 500 million tokens. And once I tweeted, then I check again and it's now $4 million. And I'm like, what? Uh, and an hour later, it's eight. A couple of hours later, it became 15 and at one point it was $20 million, just like the same day.

• 39:54Sam Parr?

  So the market cap and the market cap of the whole thing that means was 80 million?

• 39:59Speaker 00

  Uh, correct.

• 40:01Sam Parr?

  Okay.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  I think peak market cap was around $60 million.

• 40:04Sam Parr?

  Okay, and you had 40 million of it?

• 40:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I, I sold 10% immediately just to like capture something and I sold a bit more in the liquidity pool. So, you know, I got around a million dollars out, uh, but I still owned 30% of it. And immediately I was, I said, okay, I don't know what I'm gonna do with it, but every dollar in my wallet is going to charity. This is nonprofits, not for me. Not just charity, going to the research lab. Going to research. Researching the potential to your daughter's thing. Correct. So I said, hey, I'm not gonna move anything without 24 hours notice. Uh, I'm gonna try to like be very transparent about this. And I thought about it and I said, I'm gonna start selling a thousand dollars every 10 minutes.

• 40:48Speaker 00

  Until like we're done because I just don't have time to run a crypto project. And, you know, like, I want everyone to know where this is going. So that happened and the price started going down, but once we get to, it got to a million. Uh, what happened in between is because it was such a big story, um, a bunch of rare disease organizations started reaching out to me. And they're like, wow, this happened to you. Can we, how do we get up, get in on this? Because.

• 41:19Sam Parr?

  They're like, did you say pump dot fun? Okay.

• 41:26Speaker 00

  Average budget, annual budget for one of these organizations is like a hundred thousand, a hundred fifty thousand dollars. Just like not a whole lot of money. This is like more money than the community has ever seen. It's a lot of excitement there. So I thought, well, I was signing up for crypto friends and I thought, okay, how do we make this like a thing? And maybe we can make this more sustainable, long lasting. And this idea turning Mira into a launchpad for other rare disease tokens where Mira is a liquidity pair token. Was talked about. And so I thought, well, okay, that seems interesting. Before I do that, I should probably figure out how a coin works and how you launch one of these. So I went on pump that fun. And I thought, okay, let's find out how one of these works.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  So I created a coin called zero and I entered a description for the coin because you could do that. I said, hey, don't buy this coin. It literally says, don't buy this coin. It'll never be worth anything. I'm never going to do anything with it. It'll be worth zero dollars. So I pressed a button and what I didn't realize is because I was on Ethereum for a long time, but I never had a watch wallet. What happened is I was in the background, the most watch wallet in crypto. So within about 100 to 200 seconds, the market cap of this coin that I told people to not buy.

• 42:39Sam Parr?

  A watch wallet. Does a watch wallet mean that you are someone that should be monitored because you're a potential whale?

• 42:45Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, like people, people start tracking like, oh, what is Vitalik doing with his wallet? What is, what is? People are copying with their wallet. Yeah. People want to copy what you're doing.

• 42:53Sam Parr?

  And they think that you're, and they think you're the man because your wallet is old or you have a lot in it.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  Because I was sort of the main character of like crypto Twitter for like a few days.

• 43:03Sam Parr?

  Got it. Okay, understood.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  So they were copy, there were bots like just monitoring what I was doing and doing, buying whatever I was buying. And so they saw this new token. And so within 100 to 200 seconds, the market cap of this token was three and a half million dollars.

• 43:21Speaker 00

  So I was just sitting there like panicking and I said, okay, I don't, this is bad. I don't want to have anything to do with this. So I had half of the entire supply and I sold it. And that was my main mistake. I should have burned it, which everyone would have been happy about, right? But because I sold, I crashed the price of this token and people got very upset because it was considered a rug. So now like, oh my God, everyone's and, and when I sold, I made like $80,000. Cause even though it was three and a half million dollars in market cap, there's only about $100,000 or so in liquidity. And yeah, I started a thread explaining, oh my God, I didn't expect this to happen.

• 44:05Speaker 00

  I got on spaces over video, just like, I'm really sorry. I, I, I'm like, so try to figure out how this works and you know, people don't, didn't care. Um, and when I realized it's just a different community than it was when I was really active on Twitter in 2017. Like people on Ethereum, they're like very deep tech people, right? They're like nerdy and with a Solana in 2024, I didn't realize like it's so much more mainstream. A lot of people maybe have like $50, $100 and they're just trying to turn it into a thousand dollars. And so the amount of emotion there is like very, very different.

• 44:41Shaan Puri?

  Crypto transitioned from neck beards to like everybody who looks like Jack Harlow. In like four years, the community, the Solana community all has like the line etched into the, into like the side of their haircut or like multiple. It's very different than like the people that got me into Ethereum in the first place.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  Today I learned, or this month I learned. So anyway, the market out three and a half million before I sold, it dumped a 300,000. And as I started talking about my mistake, the market cap came back. And at one point it was like five and a half, six million dollars.

• 45:16Speaker 00

  Uh, just because I was like talking about it and people were just, the more upset people were, the more the coin pumped and more people, money people made from the coin. So they were trying to make it like even more dramatic, which I didn't really understand at the time. I just thought I messed up and people were really upset at me.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  So anyway, so then that was like the main villain turn on Twitter and everyone was super upset at me because they saw me as a scammer. So I thought about what am I going to do with it? So first of all, like the $80,000, within a minute, I realized this is a mistake. So I bought back in into the coin and I burned it all, right? So I already was like neutral and I explained that no one cared because of the anonymity of crypto. They thought I had like 100 other wallets that was like, that I pumped and dumped on and need profit there and I can't prove otherwise. So I decided like, this is really shitty and I don't want any part of it. So what I decided to do is I got some help from, you know, a friend who's a Coinbase

• 46:16Speaker 00

  and other people who didn't want to be named to do on-chain analysis. So what I said on Facebook is I'm actually just going to pay everyone back the lost money on this out of my own pocket and I've even touched a charity wallet. So what we ended up doing is everyone who held in the first 200 seconds, who owned any coins then, up until the point 43 minutes later where the market cap fully recovered, back to the same value. If you sold and you realized lost, I'm just going to airdrop you soul. And it ended up being like 104 to $50,000 out of my own pocket. And I just paid everyone back, which has never happened on any pump fund coin before. And maybe like 10% of the people have heard about this. I tweeted about it.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  I had to like keep on responding because every time I tweet for the next like month, someone would say, oh, you're a scammer. What are you still doing here? And I had to say, no, I paid everyone back and they were just like not saying anything.

• 47:09Sam Parr?

  This is like a crypto Larry David like thing. Like it's like, this is like you're walking through Times Square and one of those fake monks put like a bracelet on your wrist and then like now expects you to give them like $20, even though he called it a free gift. Like this is just, this is insane. So how much did you end up giving to the charity?

• 47:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, so between GoFundMe, so it was a million dollars from crypto. And just like I locked a bunch of the mirror coin into a liquidity pool. So it's sort of still perpetually generating.

• 47:39Sam Parr?

  So you bought a million dollars of charity for $150,000, basically?

• 47:44Speaker 00

  That's correct, yeah. And then we, his total was like a 1.4 million. We donated more to match like the mistake and we added a GoFundMe to it. So, and it'd be 1.4 million.

• 47:56Shaan Puri?

  And then the lab actually like triple leveraged it up into the coin?

• 48:02Shaan Puri?

  They they got hooked on pumped pumped off fun.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  Would you Sean put get back to 150 like he did? I wouldn't. Fuck that.

• 48:09Shaan Puri?

  I would not have for that situation personally. I get why you did. It's almost just like, dude, this is cra- all of this was unintentional. Uh, people are really mad. Okay. What's the sort of like? How can I just like clear up any possible confusion? But I don't think you needed to in this situation, right? You created a coin called Zero that you said is don't buy this. This is going to zero. It's a test coin. And if somebody went and randomly speculated on it using their like, their sniper bots that are trying to track your wallet, you know, like I wouldn't have given a shit personally. But then again, these this community is so like crazy that they'll just like make your life hell on Twitter for like the next five years. It might be might be worth it, you know, just to clear your own conscious, go to sleep at night, you know?

• 48:52Speaker 00

  Exactly. I couldn't. It was for me so I could sleep all night because a lot of these people are fairly low income and the money is fairly meaningful. It was one reason. But another reason is like, people just don't read. Like I explained this, I mean, the coin says, don't buy it. I explained this like a couple of different times. And what I realized is like, you just don't read on the internet. And as far as anyone else knows, because it makes little noise, like I, the, if you don't don't read, what it sounds like is I created a scam coin using my own daughter's name to scam people out of my.

• 49:26Shaan Puri?

  Right, right, right. It's crazy. Did you, um, in the end of this, is there anything here that's interesting for fundraising for research? Or this is just straight like, I accidentally got into a gambling pool and it's kind of got some money for research, but this is not a sustainable thing for anybody?

• 49:43Speaker 00

  I'm still trying to figure it out. So what I'm hoping to make nearer into is, so the way this works is you're, this is like sort of game theory around, okay, you own a bunch of this coin because this coin's narrative is attached to you, right? In the case of, you know, Dave Portnoy is doing something similar with Jailstool. And in order to turn it into real world impact, you have to sell. There's no way around that. And so when you sell, then you're just like playing your zero sum game against the community and they're all going to be upset for you for sure, no matter what. And so that's a very difficult dynamic. And I think my idea here is like, the only sustainable way to do this is to lock a bunch of the token into a liquidity pool.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  And so that when people buy in or out of it, you get to exchange, you get the fees. And that's not really like selling into your community. I think imagine a version of Dogecoin where every time someone, you know, it's like Dogecoin is like a couple of tens of billions of dollars market cap. But every time someone sells or buys, it creates like up to, it could be hundreds of thousands of dollars a day of fees and what you can then use to donate. I think that might be relatively sustainable.

• 50:51Sam Parr?

  This is insane. I don't even know what to say. Sounds like a great weekend.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  No, it was a month. It was the last, it was Christmas until like maybe, you know, now, and it ruined my vacation. And it's been by far the most stressful time I've ever had in my life.

• 51:08Shaan Puri?

  Can we do a quick detour? We were at a dinner once and you talked about some, I think it was a Stanford class you took called Touchy Feely, or that's the code name for it. I don't know. And it's something about communication and relationships. And I remember you said this really great thing at the dinner, but this was now many years ago and I don't remember it exactly, but can you say that bit again? I want to hear it again. And I think a lot of people might benefit from it.

• 51:31Sam Parr?

  By the way, Sickie, how old are you?

• 51:33Speaker 00

  I'm 41, I think.

• 51:35Sam Parr?

  You, you look like you could be 22 or 41. I have no idea.

• 51:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, Asian no raisin, let's go.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I, I took actually now twice, I took, I took class again since we talked this class that was based on the Stanford Business School class called Interpersonal Dynamics, which is the highly rated and most popular class in Stanford Business School. It's taught by a professor called Carol Robbins and it's generally known as Touchy Feely. And it's famous for every participant at some point will like cry in the class. But Carol Robbins is now a co-founder of a, a group called Leaders in Tech, which provides the same class for tech leaders. So one of the things that you get taught in this class is, so the purpose of the class is to teach you how to relate to people and build connections with other people because people work with other people.

• 52:25Speaker 00

  And one of the most useful frameworks I got from that class is how to think about your connection with other people and how to develop that connection. And so the two frameworks to connect is one is the two tracks of interpersonal communication and the five levels of it. So when you're talking with anyone else, there is two tracks. There's a content track and there's a relationship track. So the content track is filled with facts and a relationship track is filled with emotion and a relationship track is what is filled and what has to be filled for a relationship to get become closer and for trust to increase.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  And the way you fill each of these tracks is through the five levels of communication. And the idea is when you are talking to someone, there's five levels at which you communicate of increasing vulnerability and depth. So level one is what's called ritual. And that is, hey, how's it going? Hey, right? Where it doesn't really say anything. We're just, it's just ritualized greeting. Um, level two is extended ritual. So that is, how's the weather? How's the game? Right? You're, you're, it's, it's a longer version of, hey, how's it going? Level three is content. So these are facts. How's the project? Is it late? What are we gonna do with this particular idea?

• 53:50Speaker 00

  Level four is emotional self-disclosure. So that is when you say something that discloses how you are feeling emotionally at the time. I feel sad. I feel angry. And there's a lot of talk about level four because people think they're doing level four, but they're not. And that's a very common thing that's unique to the English language, which we talk about. That was a fairly interesting insight. So level five is the deepest one. And level five is mutual emotional self-disclosure. And it is when you are expressing the emotion that you have about the other person. I feel angry at you. I feel proud of you. I feel disappointed by you. That's the deepest level of a communication you can have with another person. And

• 54:34Speaker 00

  The content track is only filled by things from level one to three. And the relationship track is only filled by level four and five. And we are taught to really not use level four and five in professional settings. But if you want to build a relationship, level four and five is kind of the only way you can do it. And so a lot of the training is about breaking past the barrier or the uncomfortableness of engaging level four and level five communication. Uh, and you basically sit in a circle with 12 people for four days straight. Um, until you like, so you can observe the impact of doing level four or five and not doing level four or five. And how you are able to be closer to someone or further away from someone in emotional distance.

• 55:19Sam Parr?

  Has this made your running a company better?

• 55:23Speaker 00

  I mean, I would say this is the most impactful thing I've ever done in my entire life, like out of any class. I always like, as a founder, somewhat see the company as some kind of machine and I didn't find it. I'm like, you know, Miley asked for a degree, so I found it difficult to relate to people. Uh, but completely transformed my, all my relationships, including my relationship to my wife. And so one of the ways, this was even just last week, we had onsite. And I was able to do a mini version of this with our customer success team where we just sat. Or, you know, I did a very condensed version of this lecture and then we sat and we just talked for about four hours. And the amount of closeness people got, insight people got was transformative.

• 56:07Speaker 00

  And you wouldn't normally, you know, sit around for a couple of hours in a work setting, talk about your feelings. And it's very uncomfortable to do so. And it's intentionally so, like, it's very comfortable for the first couple of, uh, in the, in the case of a real life workshop, it's half a day. In the case of us, we had to like sort of speed run and then it was uncomfortable about an hour. But then people, uh, were really into it and it's weird, but everyone at some point was crying about, uh, some disclosure that they heard or, or they've experienced. And as a result, the team got so much closer and the trust increased.

• 56:40Shaan Puri?

  That's wild. Would you, uh, so how do you do this in practice, right? Cause when you talk about like, you know, I feel angry at you about X or I'm disappointed about Y. I could see myself not having the skills or finesse to be able to do that and let the end result be a positive one versus. We start talking, you're upset by this. Well, the other person gets defensive, or they push back and say, well, you did that, you know, blah, blah, blah. And so can you give me an example of a conversation that you had that like, maybe here's what I would love, a conversation that typically would have gone like this, or maybe been avoided altogether. And instead, here's how the actual conversation went that was useful for you as a, as a, you know,

• 57:24Shaan Puri?

  CEO, leader, friend, whatever, husband, whatever, whichever example you want to choose.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. So the first one is easy, actually. So in most people just don't have the conversation. Right? So the conversation wouldn't say, I'm angry. You would just be angry and you wouldn't say anything. And people can tell is the thing like when, when you feel a certain way about someone, it, it, it gets, it leaks, right? Like there's a level of even you're not intending to passive aggressive. You're just kind of ignoring the person or it comes off like you're said, like, oh my God, it's late again.

• 57:57Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 57:57Speaker 00

  Right? Or he didn't do this. And so that's the default. And that's when you have this negative feedback cycle of, well, okay, you already felt a certain way, then you express them unknowingly. And now the other person thinks you're angry at them and now they dislike you more. And then they do things that you dislike more because they dislike you more. And it just gets worse. That's all relationships get worse. And that's like the default. And so if you know that it leaks anyway, then it becomes easier to say, I'm going to express that. And you're going to express it no matter what. Your choice is, do you express it with words? Or to express it with not words, but just like passive aggressive behavior.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  And so, and then you combine that with, everyone is entitled to know these things that they know. But they're not entitled to make things up about what other people are thinking. So you are entitled to seeing the same facts as everyone else, seeing the same behavior. You're not entitled to, uh, uh, read the minds of some other person and how they're thinking and how they're feeling. But you're 100% entitled to share what you're feeling because those are facts to you. That's reality. And so the mental model isn't, and this is kind of like typical because people aren't used to expressing this. The mental model is like, oh, if I am expressing this emotion, that means I'm attacking someone. And that is true if you don't express emotion and you're just acting it out.

• 59:23Speaker 00

  But if I were to say, you know, when I see you do this, the story I tell myself is that you don't respect me. And I don't know if that's true, but this is like what I'm thinking in my head. And because of that, I feel angry. And I just want you to know that because I don't, I don't know if you know that you, I know that you probably don't because you can't read my mind. But I'm guessing you probably aren't intending to make me feel that way. And I thought it'd be helpful for you to share, for me to share that to you so that you are aware of it.

• 59:54Sam Parr?

  I just learned that technique in therapy last week.

• 59:57Speaker 00

  Amazing.

• 59:58Sam Parr?

  I seriously did.

• 59:59Shaan Puri?

  Nonviolent, nonviolent communication framework, right?

• 1:00:02Speaker 00

  It is. Yeah, it's very connected to that.

• 1:00:04Sam Parr?

  I literally just learned that.

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're, you're, you're, you're sharing information, right? So it's not an attack. Like if you are genuinely doing it because you understand that you can't read their mind, but other courses can't read your mind either. And so by sharing it is you're offering them a gift of information.

• 1:00:22Shaan Puri?

  One question, you said something about the English language making it harder. What did you mean by that?

• 1:00:27Speaker 00

  So what you start seeing when you're in this class with these tall people. And you start realizing that, oh, like, I really only feel closer and I get to know someone better when they say I feel emotion. I feel sad. I feel angry when this happened. And I feel distance when they're expressing that emotion, but not saying it. You can tell on their faces that they're pissed off and it becomes scarier. So then you start learning that, oh, I need to say I feel. The thing about the English language is that we say I feel often without expressing any emotion at all. And that's some sort of a quirk that's kind of unique to English.

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  So when you say, I feel that or I feel like there, it is actually grammatically impossible for the net word to be an emotion. I feel that you're an asshole is not an emotion. I feel like this is fucked is not an emotion. I feel sad is an emotion. I feel happy is an emotion. And we're not used to saying that because the word feel is used. Is is has been, you know, disused, misused for other purposes. And so we just often is unconsciously, you, once you see it, you cannot see it. People, I ask people, it's showed emotion. And they say, I feel like I feel that. And it's never an emotion. And it's very, very hard to change the habit.

• 1:01:47Sam Parr?

  Do you guys do this where like Sean, in particular, I'm curious if you do this, but do you guys do this where you like? You get into this type of shit, whatever you want to call it, the touchy feely stuff. And you're like, this is the way. And then like I get into it and then half the time I execute that poorly and all, and then like the business sucks. And I'm like, I gotta have more patience with this person or I gotta like, let them get away with shit more or whatever. And then I just go right back to the total opposite end where it's like, um, what, what do they, what do they call this? Doge where I'm like, everyone has 15 minutes to fight for their job. Like, you know, like, like, it's like I get influenced by either side and I, but there is no middle ground. And that's like.

• 1:02:32Shaan Puri?

  I'm kind of like you that the first sign of resistance, I crumble sometimes. So the, but the version of it that happens for me is let's say I, I hear this and I'm like, ah, see, he just taught me something. This is great. Two content tracks, five levels. I'm in, I got this, I'm going level five, baby. I don't even need one through four. And then I'll go have the next conversation with my wife tonight and I'll give her like,

• 1:02:55Shaan Puri?

  I feel that, no, no, I feel upset. And I know you didn't mean that. I tried to do the whole thing and she's like, what? And then she doesn't, she doesn't know all of this. She didn't, because she didn't go to the seminar and she didn't have the, the skills and the tools.

• 1:03:09Sam Parr?

  She's like, be a mad Sean, shut up.

• 1:03:11Shaan Puri?

  It's on the front of her mind. And so she does it playback like the role play that I had heard was. And then I'm like, well, I don't really know the next move. Okay, revert, revert back to my old asshole self.

• 1:03:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, that's not a bad response, honestly, because I think I think you have to do whatever works. And the reality is to get good at this, you know, it took me, I did this four day program twice. And every day was like 12 hours a day and you're just sitting in the circle practicing for eight hours a day. Uh, the first time she actually did.

• 1:03:46Shaan Puri?

  Okay, so she kind of had a team.

• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  I kind of know, I kind of smuggled her into her into the hotel room. So she didn't go to the class, but I will say like the second night when I went home, she was like, who are you? Cause I was like, oh my God, I feel so bad. I've been such an asshole.

• 1:04:04Sam Parr?

  Dude, this sounds like, have you guys heard of the Hoffman Institute?

• 1:04:07Speaker 00

  I've heard of this.

• 1:04:09Sam Parr?

  But I haven't been.

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Sam Parr?

  Like I have, I've contemplated going to it, but I think they, it's like, uh, they have a variety of locations. They have one in Connecticut near me and then they have a Boston one, but you go for, it's like not expensive. It's like $2,000 and you go for four days and you can't bring your cell phone. You can't, you're, you're got to be completely disconnected or maybe it's even five days. It's kind of a lot. Uh, but they like everyone who I go, who goes to it, they won't tell me what happens there. But they all say that it's life changing and they can now develop relationships and connections with other people. It's one of these really strange things that I'm so tempted to do, but the amount of time to be disconnected is very like nerve wracking. Or, or you know, just like scary. This sounds very similar.

• 1:04:51Shaan Puri?

  It does sound pretty similar. It's not the time to be disconnected. That's the scary part there.

• 1:04:56Sam Parr?

  Well, yeah, it is, dude. Could, it might even be seven days. Could you go seven days without a phone away from your family?

• 1:05:03Speaker 00

  Away from family is a little harder. Yeah, that's hard.

• 1:05:05Sam Parr?

  Like in a hotel, like it's like crazy to be disconnected, but yeah, I don't want to like, also, I don't want to like cry with a bunch of strangers. That's why I don't go to Tony Robbins. I'm like, I don't want to go to Tony Robbins. I don't want to see anyone. I don't want anyone to see me dancing and singing like, you know what I mean?

• 1:05:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. What's great about Leaders in Tuck is like, is they're all like, you know, well known-ish founders. It's like not cheap to go. So.

• 1:05:25Shaan Puri?

  Even worse. Be around awesome people. God, I want to be my, my most vulnerable self around cool people.

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  No, actually, it's really helpful because you realize that all the people that some people that you look up to, like, we're kind of all the same. Like, there's very similar insecurities.

• 1:05:42Sam Parr?

  Whenever I hear about, whenever I hear about this stuff, I think of the Tony Soprano quote, where he's like, whatever happened to the strong silent type, like Gary Cooper?

• 1:05:51Sam Parr?

  I get, I go all down this track, and I'm like, can I just say, like, hey, chief, like, hi, bub, I just know that person only at that amount, and just say yes or no?

• 1:06:00Shaan Puri?

  Siki, you have this interview question that I like. You said, my favorite interview question, after 20 years of doing interviews with people, is what is your greatest strength that you are most worried about not coming across in an interview setting? Why that question?

• 1:06:16Speaker 00

  I think I enjoy breaking the fourth wall, and interviews tends to be so standardized and formalized that what my greatest anxiety when I'm interviewing is, like, I'm actually really good at a thing, and you're asking me to, you know, you know, reverse a leak list or something, and it's just not coming across. What I find is that it breaks down this deformality, and it lets people, gets people excited to talk about something that they're really, really good at, tell me great, great stories. And you get it, you get to know the person just a little bit better. And I think the particular thing is, like, if you just ask what's your greatest strengths, it sounds really formal. But what is the insecurity that you're bringing in, that you're hoping to, that you're worried about not coming across an interview setting? It changes the tone quite a bit.

• 1:06:59Shaan Puri?

  It's a great question. I'm stealing that.

• 1:07:01Sam Parr?

  Yeah, that's a good one. You know what's interesting is, so you, you're, you founded Runway, which is like, a very serious business. Like, you're gonna have to hire enterprise people, I would imagine, enterprise salespeople. Like, it's like, I'm basing, like, the future of my company off of some of the output that I'm going to learn from your software. But you have the vibe of like, an artist to me, where like, you, you have a variety of like, really intriguing projects. You're like this thinker, almost like a philosopher. Is this new to be doing, like, is this like a new challenge for you to be doing something so serious and regimented, like, and, or can you still be like goofy and an artist in this B to B world?

• 1:07:43Speaker 00

  So yeah, funny enough, he said serious business. That was the name of my first company. And we built fun games.

• 1:07:49Sam Parr?

  I feel like if you call it serious citizen, you know?

• 1:07:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, because we're a games company, serious business, fun games. But uh, yeah, I mean, I think it's actually a pretty huge advantage, particularly for the things we consider serious. So I mean, people have the stereotype of business and finances being super serious and super rigid. But finance at its best is really about creating value. It's not looking forward and thinking about new ideas about how we can push the business forward and grow faster and all these things. And in order for us to be creative, we have to be in flow. And things that are fun keeps you in flow. And what we actually hear from our customers, that the thing that we hear quite often and we love hearing is this software feels fun. And that's not a luxury.

• 1:08:35Speaker 00

  That is a fun that creates flow, that creates your creativity, that creates value. Uh, and when you use something that isn't fun, if something that feels slow or confusing, then you're not creative. Uh, and you're making worse decisions. So I don't think they're intentional with each other. I think they're quite complimentary. And that is like very deeply part of our philosophy. I saw that. Have you ever seen this?

• 1:08:58Sam Parr?

  Yes, that's, that's, that's what made me think of that question.

• 1:09:01Speaker 00

  What's the, what's the story of this, Yuki? This happened last week. Our marketing team is run by Cal Fries, who was a Y C founder of a company called Taika. He was the C O O there. And we also have this woman named Julie Fritas, uh, who was at Shopify. And uh, I was in the office and I just saw them come out in a meeting, kind of giggling, and they got out this piece of cardboard and started like writing this. I'm like, what is this? Like, oh, you know how like, you know, you, you didn't want to do a billboard? We decided just like create a billboard ourselves and just hold on a freeway. And I'm like, that is such a cracked idea. Of course that's going to go viral.

• 1:09:42Speaker 00

  And uh, I said, I'll do it. It's like, you will? I'm like, yeah, I'll, I'll do it. So they're like, okay. So we walked outside, we found a freeway entrance. Uh, and I was just holding the sign. What does it say? By the way, it says. It says, hate your finance platform, get runway.com.

• 1:10:02Sam Parr?

  Are you, um, are you the only founder?

• 1:10:05Speaker 00

  Uh, I have a, I had a co-founder, Aria Asa Manfar, and he left the company about a year and a half ago, almost two years.

• 1:10:11Sam Parr?

  Because that's like pretty rare. I mean, you're, I don't know when you launched, but I feel like you're very, very, very, very early in the period because I remember seeing you guys go on Twitter, like get, get popular on Twitter. Uh, that's gonna be pretty, uh, different to be a kind of a, the only founder running a company. That'd be kind of exciting, right? You get to do whatever the hell you want, or is it, are you gonna be lonely?

• 1:10:32Speaker 00

  I think the reason why we parted ways is things were just slower to make decisions and neither of us were having as much fun as we wanted to. And actually, I didn't want him to leave. Like, he is, I mean, I, he's still on the board. I love him. He's just the most wise and high-integrity person I've ever met. Uh, he was one of Parag's peers at Twitter and he, I hired him out of school in my first company. And you know, he works for Brett Taylor, uh, at Sierra. But he'll, we, if things were like going slower than we wanted and he identified that it was him slow, or our relationship slowing us down, he decided to fire himself. And I didn't think he, he was right about that, but he was. He usually is right about just about everything and it totally transformed the company.

• 1:11:16Sam Parr?

  He also must have attended Interpersonal Dynamics.

• 1:11:19Speaker 00

  He did not.

• 1:11:19Shaan Puri?

  You talked about Character AI and Chai, like some of these AI companies that are crushing it, just printing money right now. Are there any other companies that just have blown your mind in terms of how well they're doing or how fast they're growing right now? Like, uh, maybe AI, maybe not AI?

• 1:11:34Speaker 00

  Uh, I love the labs. Um, I'm a small investor in that company, but it's, it's, they do like basically all of the audio, translation, generation, sometimes de-fakes. And when I met them, there were like less than 10 people. They were just, they were ex-Google. They're working on the foundational technology. And they are now, I don't know what they last announced, but they're in the hundreds of millions. They are in like a year or two, a year and a half or so. Um, and what, what blew my mind is I never seen a group of very good technologists that were also so good at commercializing the technology so rapidly.

• 1:12:11Sam Parr?

  They're at hundreds of millions and

• 1:12:13Speaker 00

  Hundreds, hundreds.

• 1:12:15Sam Parr?

  I feel like this just came out.

• 1:12:17Speaker 00

  And they're, yeah, no, no, no.

• 1:12:18Sam Parr?

  It's

• 1:12:18Speaker 00

  We should have invested in it.

• 1:12:19Shaan Puri?

  They dubbed our podcast. Remember that clip where they were like,

• 1:12:23Sam Parr?

  The Indian

• 1:12:23Shaan Puri?

  You're speaking Hindi now. And it was amazing. And I DM them and we were like, hey, this is really cool. Like so stupid of us not to have pursued that more.

• 1:12:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's that graph, right, for wise and the fastest growing SaaS companies. And I think cursor is up there. I am fairly convinced that I love labs is actually like faster than all of them. But yeah, I think they announced some revenue milestone, but it's

• 1:12:47Sam Parr?

  Well, when we were tinkering with them, it was borderline. This is cool. This is cute to I need, I can use this right now. It was like, it was like just there. So I guess they crossed it and people are actually using it like to actually

• 1:13:01Shaan Puri?

  Who are they selling to? Is it?

• 1:13:04Speaker 00

  So, so Apple has audiobooks.

• 1:13:07Speaker 00

  Oh, so on a podcast or Apple audiobooks, right? Like so previously did have audiobooks and you know, you would know that a lot of this AI generated is powered by level labs.

• 1:13:15Sam Parr?

  Oh, so they, and they also

• 1:13:17Speaker 00

  Publishers.

• 1:13:18Sam Parr?

  They also do AI agents for customer service and support agents and things like that. So they're the backend of maybe potentially other software tools as well.

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. So they have all kinds of product lines. So the book publishers, the power agents, they do a whole

• 1:13:31Shaan Puri?

  Why are they better than like what open AI, you know, like the risk with all these AI companies is that the The general, the base models, AI, open AI and anthropic, et cetera, can just Offer those capabilities, you know, as part of the main suite. Did they do something different? Are they fine tuning it in some way? What's?

• 1:13:46Speaker 00

  No, it's their own foundational models and the quality and expressiveness is just better. And the form factor is better. So you can use it for all these different use cases. And the voice API of open AI is actually like not as good or is easily usable.

• 1:14:01Sam Parr?

  Dude, you're super fun to talk to. I just like hearing all these like, I feel like you're like a, like a treasure box. I just like pick like, I just grab something out of the toy chest and be like, tell me the story behind this. You know what I mean? I think that's awesome.

• 1:14:17Shaan Puri?

  Yeah. Thanks for coming on, dude. And give people a shout out for your company and where to follow you for more.

• 1:14:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, runway.com. You can follow me at blader blade with an R or runway co. And if you are CFO, you should use our software.

• 1:14:30Sam Parr?

  How much did you have to pay for that domain?

• 1:14:33Speaker 00

  A quarter million dollars.

• 1:14:34Sam Parr?

  That's not bad.

• 1:14:35Speaker 00

  Naval Ravikant named the company and suggested that we use it on a dot com.

• 1:14:39Sam Parr?

  I think that was smart. Quarter million is not a lot, I feel like, for that.

• 1:14:42Shaan Puri?

  Wait, what do you mean Naval named the company? Like, you went to him being like, hey, what should we name this? Or he just suggested?

• 1:14:46Speaker 00

  So, when Clubhouse only had one room in April 2020, it was in the Naval app, right? I think you were on it quite a bit, too. And so, when I was thinking about what I want to do for next company, I said, I want to do a finance company. And I got a great name for it, Naval, CFO.ai. He's like, no, don't call it AI. It's going to be dated in like two years. Everything is called AI. You should just call it Runway, and you get the dot com. And he wrote the first track into Runway. And that's why we got the dot com.

• 1:15:16Shaan Puri?

  It's so funny that you said it was the Naval app at the time. It totally was. It was amazing.

• 1:15:20Speaker 00

  It was.

• 1:15:22Shaan Puri?

  It was amazing. By the way, I was using AirChat, like, pretty religiously, like, for like two months.

• 1:15:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:29Shaan Puri?

  Even though I knew AirChat's not going to work, I was like, oh, it doesn't matter. This is Naval's app. He's going to be on it 24/7. Cool. This is like, I like to hang out with Naval. I'm not going to email him like a million other people and say, hey, can we get a coffee?

• 1:15:42Speaker 00

  Just a thousand dollars a month, and you can talk to Naval whenever you want.

• 1:15:45Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, exactly. I was like, I'm going to be on this. I'm going to be on this for two months. I'm going to be a power user for exactly two months, and I'm going to hang out with Naval. And that's exactly what happened. I was very proud of myself for that. It was the most fun way to use that app.

• 1:15:56Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:15:57Sam Parr?

  Dude, thank you for doing this. You're the man. And we're thinking of you and your daughter.

• 1:16:01Speaker 00

  Thank you. Appreciate you, man.

• 1:16:03Sam Parr?

  All right. See you. Thank you. That's it. That's the pod.