This CIA Scientist Led Alien Contact Ceremonies for Elites

Our American Alchemist this week is Greg Mallozzi. Check out Greg’s new Substack for updates on the film, bonus archives, etc. https://www.cosmicclock.net/ Go to https://zbiotics.com/JESSE and use JESSE at checkout for 15% off any first time orders of ZBiotics probiotics. Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to https://www. Quo.com/JESSEGo to https://Superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY] for $20 off your membership this year. Go to https://Superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY] for $20 off your membership this year. Take the guesswork out of getting healthy in 2026. Get full body testing that goes 5x deeper than an annual physical and a personalized action plan that tells you exactly what to do next. All for just $199. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w --------JOIN OUR WHOP (Early/Ad Free Episodes) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichelsInstagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficialTikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichelsX ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmericanSpotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotifyClips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClipsApply For Jobs ➤ [email protected] Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Inquiries ➤ [email protected] 0:00 - Introduction 3:06 - Puharich's Origin Story 9:47 - The Roundtable Foundation 13:37 - Sponsors (ZBiotics) 20:05 - Channeling the Nine 33:55 - The Nine and JFK 36:46 - Sponsors (Quo) 43:08 - Intellectron Corporation 51:07 - Delgado's Mind Control Bulls 57:19 - Sponsors (Superpower) 59:19 - Fabricated Alien Abductions 1:01:17 - The Tooth Implant 1:10:44 - Uri Geller as Guinea Pig 1:15:41 - The Israeli Connection 1:28:12 - Geller Meets Von Braun 1:37:24 - A Real UFO Sighting 1:47:38 - Roddenberry and Star Trek 1:51:29 - Itzhak Bentov 1:59:08 - The Space Kids 2:20:03 - Intelligence Missions Abroad 2:26:24 - Puharich's Mysterious Death 2:33:37 - Grinberg and Stargate's End 2:42:41 - Townsend Brown Connection 2:58:08 - Oliver Reiser and Tones 3:38:26 - Sponsors (AA Merch) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Jesse Michels?

  All these people conducting the séance were bringing in these nine, maybe extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings that go to the nine Egyptian gods, but it's like a council?

• 0:41Speaker 02

  He really was a genuine believer.

• 0:45Speaker 03

  I'm Andrea Puharic. I'm a physician by training, a research scientist by choice.

• 0:51Speaker 02

  We have tape recordings of him meditating in the king's chamber.

• 0:54Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 0:55Speaker 02

  And they brought through this information. Apparently, they're channeling this Egyptian god.

• 0:59Jesse Michels?

  And there are specifically nine Egyptian gods?

• 1:03Speaker 02

  So he gets this call of metallic voice. That was some sort of, you know, alien intelligence. This is what, you know, you hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff. Like, these people, like, weren't looking to be in the spotlight. It took about two years for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids. It's like Stranger Things in real life.

• 1:28Jesse Michels?

  You know, one neat solution that would explain everything away would be mind control, right?

• 1:33Speaker 03

  Delgado, if planet radio receivers in the heads of bull. Delgado has remote control of the animal.

• 1:39Jesse Michels?

  You have a guy who's being able to play the bull like a video game.

• 1:44Speaker 03

  I'm revealing for the first time a lot of things that even my closest working colleagues do not know.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  There's reason to believe Puharic may have been a double agent. He says it.

• 1:55Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Tape.

• 2:00Jesse Michels?

  This is one of the craziest interviews I've ever done, man.

• 2:06Speaker 03

  Ignition frequency five.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  How is this possible? Nothing too unusual about that.

• 2:16Speaker 03

  Existence cannot longer be denied.

• 2:28Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with Greg Malatsy. This has been a long time coming. We've had a lot of interesting offline conversations. You made an amazing documentary called Mind Traveler about this very mysterious mid-century scientist named Andrea Puharic, who is like this Zelig of American conspiracies. He's this architect of MKUltra and early CIA mind control techniques, but also seems to be channeling aliens through what he calls the space kids, this like collection of kids who he recruits who are psychic. He's the inspiration for Star Trek, incidentally. Like, he is one of the most interesting people I've ever encountered,

• 3:13Jesse Michels?

  and you've made this amazing documentary on him. So I just can't wait to dive into this, and I appreciate you being here.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate you having me.

• 3:22Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. So what, give me a little bit about the origin story for Andre Puharic. Who is he? And how did he come to be one of these kind of renegade spooky scientists involved in mind control?

• 3:36Speaker 02

  I guess you could start it at Northwestern University. He went there, he was a medical student. I think he started in 47. And so he was there doing all sorts of stuff with the nervous system. He was very interested in that. And he was doing like normal medical training. And he was actually part of the Army Specialized Training Program. Have you heard of this?

• 4:03Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  It's this special program where basically they recruit students who they believe could be, you know, useful to whatever they're planning on doing in the, in certain categories of the Army, whether it be medical, so forth. He was a medical doctor, and he was part of this program. It's very strange. Kissinger was part of this program.

• 4:27Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 4:27Speaker 02

  A bunch of other weird people. Kurt Vonnegut, the author.

• 4:32Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, you could look it up. It's really weird. So he was part of that. Basically, it was like sort of a recruiting program. And they saw something in him all the way back in 47, when he was a medical student. And he very rarely, in fact, I've never even heard him mention this and in all the stuff I've listened to and read about him. So for whatever reason, you know, he didn't talk about it. And that could have been his first, you know, step into that world, the military world. But um, that happened when he was a medical student, like way before the Roundtable Foundation, the first lab he had or anything like that. So.

• 5:12Jesse Michels?

  What did this military program, this army program involve?

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Well, it's you can even on Wikipedia, there's, there's not much about it. But again, I think it was more like looking at certain institutions, certain places for people who are special. I mean, army specialized training, you know, and he was considered special at that time for what he was doing. And they just saw something in him. And he was brought into that program. I don't know what it did exactly, or you know, what like, yeah, the day to day or anything. But he was part of it as well as like, again, a list of other people like in all areas, right? Again, Kurt Vonnegut, the author, like all these people were a part of that.

• 5:53Jesse Michels?

  Where was he a medical student?

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Northwestern Chicago, which, you know, is a very prestigious school.

• 5:59Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. Evanston. And I think also Jalen Heineck was, you know, it's astronomer Blue Book was Northwestern too. So.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:08Jesse Michels?

  Okay. So he's in the Chicago suburbs and he's a medical student. How does he get into like telepathy and mind control and things like that?

• 6:17Speaker 04

  I came up with a theory of the nervous system that I called the Puharich theory.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  I visualize the nervous system as being embedded in the cell tissue of the body, just as the roots of a tree are embedded in the ground, which gives it nourishment. But the tree also has a similar network radiating into the sky. Perhaps man does as well. And he too gains nourishment through a touchless process. And if dynamics can be transferred, why can't thoughts?

• 6:53Speaker 02

  So he was, yeah, a medical student and there's a guy also at Northwestern at the time named Warren S. McCullough. Do you know who that is? No, who's that? You, you could do an episode on him. He's, he's like, you know, the Puharich on steroids, sort of, back then at least. But he was this very far out researcher into, um, he, he basically ESP stuff back then. He was very interested in like, you know, altering, uh, drugs, psychedelic drugs, mind altering stuff. For the audience, ESP is extrasensory perception? Yeah, yeah, extrasensory perception. So he was at Northwestern, this guy McCullough,

• 7:35Speaker 02

  I think I'm pronouncing that right. Um, but he sort of took Puharich under his wing and, um, from what I understand was the first person who introduced him to, you know, whatever weird science, if you want to call it that. Because he was one of these guys, McCullough, who would, you know, on his off time, do all these like strange experiments with, uh, radio frequencies and, and, and that kind of stuff. And I think like in the academic setting, he had to, you know, put on a suit and tie and like not talk about that, basically. But, um, he also was very involved in intelligence stuff. Like he was always getting sort of like, we have

• 8:17Speaker 02

  letters, um, from like CIA and stuff back then, who were kind of going to him, uh, with questions and so forth. McCullough. McCullough, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And he actually, there was an archive in, I think it wasn't Northwestern, it was some bizarre archive I found years ago, making the film. And, you know, if, I know you had Annie Jacobson on, like she, she's in the film and she was trying to find records on McCullough because, you know, he's really interesting. He was part of the Puhar story. And, and somehow we found this like big stash of archives of his that.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Again, where these letters from CIA and the Navy and everything sort of, I guess, wanting to recruit him. But in those letters, they were, there were letters from McCullough back to these agencies saying, you know, you should check this guy Puharich out. You know, he's, I work with him, he's young, he's very smart. And he was older, like much older than Puharich at that time. I think he was probably like, you know, in his seventies or eighties or something. So, you know, he passed on. But basically that, I think, triggered Puharich get very interested in the subject. So he became almost like obsessed with it. And he sort of had this moment back then where he's like, I'm either going to choose

• 9:41Speaker 02

  the traditional academic path, or I'm going to choose the, you know, path of ESP, telepathy. And he talks very openly about like, making that choice.

• 9:53Speaker 04

  I was unexpectedly put in contact with Henry A. Wallace, Vice President, under Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He was impressed by my quest for the existence of telepathy and granted me a large sum of money. Additional benefactors emerged, including the heirs to two of the wealthiest families in the world, the Astors and the DuPonts.

• 10:16Speaker 03

  I was able to get a barn. I started working in the dead of winter in 48 in Maine. We lived in a big 50-room house on the seashore, which was a lab and residence and so on. It was called the Round Table Foundation.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  And so he opens the Round Table Foundation. So there's a lot going on with how that even opened. Because it's a huge lab, it's like a massive barn. It's on the coast of Maine, Rockland, Maine, it's called. So, you know, it's this huge place, he's got like a staff, you know, all in. And the thing with Puharich, I learned, like, he Tells a a different story of how the roundtable started and how we got the money and everything to what we kind of figured out was really going on.

• 11:08Jesse Michels?

  What'd you figure out?

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Well, it was all, you know, government funded at that time.

• 11:14Jesse Michels?

  Who fought? It was the CIA or?

• 11:16Speaker 02

  Everyone, Army, Navy, CIA, something called the, something Armor Foundation that was somehow tied into, into the Army, but, but basically any, any of those places back then, I mean, we have letters

• 11:34Speaker 02

  of, of all of them, you get Army, you name it. I mean, they were just like flocking to this place, basically giving him money to do research. And this was, yeah, forty nine, fifty, very early.

• 11:47Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. And you think their preliminary interest was mind control, telepathy, anything beyond the purview of kind of normal materialist reductionist physics that might be able to be weaponized or confer a tactical advantage to the United States or?

• 12:03Speaker 02

  It's, it's complex, but yes, the short answer is yes. But I think obviously there was an interest in ESP and in what he was doing and in this idea of, okay, what if this is real? I mean, he speaks a lot and we, you know, we uncovered like hundreds of tape recordings of his that no one's ever heard. And so, you know, he talks a lot about like, they were just obsessed at that time with like, what if this were real? What are the implications? What if somebody could basically remote view? I mean, he was doing remote viewing. And this is something like, I don't think is really out there, like way, way before SRI seventies, like we're talking early fifties.

• 12:45Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  He's basically doing what would be considered remote viewing.

• 12:48Jesse Michels?

  Do you think Hal Puthoff was aware of Puharich's kind of foundation that he set with remote viewing? Cause the story is that, you know, official American remote viewing kind of started with Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ and Stanford Research Institute.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not trying to make bold statements. That's just, that's not, you know, true. If you look, if you're looking at it from a Like researched, when did this start? Because we have like all of the um, roundtable research, which is so much, I mean, even all the time we spent on the film. It's I still haven't looked at at all, but they basically detail the experiments going on, which were, you know, your classic ESP stuff, you know, like the cards.

• 13:30Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  All that, but no, they were doing like what would exactly the definition of like remote viewing.

• 13:35Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, I think they were they, you know, intelligence community, so forth. We're just very intrigued with what was going on there.

• 13:46Jesse Michels?

  So it's a combination of kind of, you know, these military factions and then these kind of blue blooded elites.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:53Jesse Michels?

  Sort of, and um, what exactly is going on there? So who is he recruiting to do these experiments? And what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation?

• 14:04Speaker 02

  So.

• 14:07Jesse Michels?

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• 14:49Jesse Michels?

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• 15:34Jesse Michels?

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• 15:49Jesse Michels?

  What exactly is going on there? So who is he recruiting to do these experiments? And what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation?

• 15:58Speaker 02

  So again, it started with a lot of just basic ESP stuff. You know, can, can somebody pick up on what's written on a letter in the other room? A lot of, yeah, like the card guessing. And then he obviously built a Faraday cage there. And I think, you know, was one of the first people, as far as I understand, doing ESP tests in a, in a Faraday cage. Where basically he would like put people who claimed to be psychic in, in the cage. And it was his belief that that could sort of, you know, block out anything from the outside and it would really help the psychic focus and be able to do what they could do.

• 16:41Jesse Michels?

  And he had, I mean, Aldous Huxley would go to the Roundtable Foundation, right? And, and obviously Aldous Huxley is known probably best for a lot of his science fiction work, but, but also, you know, the Doors of Perception, where he talks about his experience with, with mescaline. And then, you know, if you really get into the maybe deeper kind of architectures of his thinking, like in perennial philosophy, he's like clearly this kind of deep esotericist. And so he was hanging out at the Roundtable Foundation too?

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were good friends. In fact, on Buharich's book, The Sacred Mushroom, which is how I got into this whole thing. I, I had read that book when I was much younger and I was really interested in all that stuff. And, uh, you know, what's the book? DMT, The Spirit Molecule?

• 17:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was really into that. And I came across The Sacred Mushroom, Buharich's book, which is very interesting. Have you read that?

• 17:37Jesse Michels?

  I haven't read it. Yeah, I think I have it, but I haven't read it. Yeah.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  The premise is basically, you know, and this was also the research he was doing at the round table was people, you know, taking a certain type of mushroom. In this instance, the Amanita muscaria, you know, gives people ESP abilities and they did extensive research on that there. But on the cover of that book, you know, Aldous Huxley gives a blurb for Puharich and calls him, you know, the greatest mind in parapsychology. But yeah, they were good friends. He was there all the time. Again, very interested in what he was doing. Really thought Puharich was like on to something.

• 18:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And the Amanita muscaria mushroom is a very interesting mushroom. It's the kind of archetypal, you know, emoji on all of our, you know, cell phones or iPhones at least. But it also, I believe, John Marco Allegro, who was a, you know, a scholar of various, you know, ancient languages, he came to the very heretical conclusion that the Eucharist itself was an Amanita muscaria mushroom. And so the actual transubstantiation involved this like mushroom. And that maybe what Jesus underwent was some sort of kind of pagan mystery ritual that allowed him to sort of gain the magical powers that he achieved in the Book of Acts.

• 18:58Jesse Michels?

  And that that whole thing had some kind of hermetic meaning that, you know, isn't just maybe a literal reincarnation or something.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:06Jesse Michels?

  And so that I assume that must have, because I think his, the name of his book is similar. It's the sacred mushroom in the cross or something.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:14Jesse Michels?

  So was there maybe some, some influence there with Puharich?

• 19:17Speaker 02

  I'm sure there was, you know, from, from what I understand, when Puharich's book came out, it was, you know, it's now sort of like a cult classic, but at the time it was like, you know, controversial because basically people didn't believe in what he was writing.

• 19:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  And that I think kind of kickstarted the You know, way people looked at Puharich as being, you know, kind of like a kook.

• 19:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  But he clearly wasn't.

• 19:46Jesse Michels?

  Clearly, but he was, he also was amongst, he was kind of a pioneer and had a few peers who were also at the forefront of their fields, people like Albert Hofmann, Karl Ruck, and Stanislav Grof, who thought of themselves as creating what they called the new Eleusis, based on kind of, you know, past mystery rituals, the Eleusinian mystery rituals.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:06Jesse Michels?

  And they involved ergot and psychedelic substances and, you know, these sort of, you know, Persephone's quest style, you know, you go down, you descend to the underworld and you come back up and you, you know, you, you gain knowledge of your primordial soul. And so Puharich was, you know, uh, he was amidst this backdrop. He was, he was sort of on his, on his come up, which, you know, maybe isn't a coincidence.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  We are the positive principles of cosmos. We penetrate, visit, person. We work through this body, but it is under our control.

• 20:47Speaker 03

  We nine and are we.

• 20:51Speaker 06

  The very first time that Andre heard about the nine was through Dr. Venod.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  I've never seen people like this that I've studied. Dr. Venod had become a channel for a civilization somewhere out there from outer space. It's so alien to our thinking. We can't even comprehend it. They called themselves, these beings, the nine. What is the nine? They said, well, it's hard to explain you. We're not personalities as you think of personalities. We're more like laws or principles of the universe.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  The part of Puharich's story where I think things sort of change in his life is when, you know, this instance happens, when they first channeled the nine, which was in 52. And it is correct. All these people were there. Again, these were people who were like benefactors, who were interested in what he was doing. But it all started with this guy Venod, that you may have heard this name. He was a, an Indian psychic.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  He came to the roundtable again through recommendation of somebody Puharich I was working with. And the story goes, he shows up in Maine, goes to the Roundtable Foundation, and the first night he's there, he just unexpectedly falls into a trance. And you know, they're like, what's going on here? Someone grabs a tape recorder, which we have the tapes of. And he goes into a trance and he just starts speaking, you know, saying, you know, we are the nine and where we're coming through to you now. And just kind of on and on and on about a lot of philosophical, new age sort of stuff, basically. I mean,

• 22:44Speaker 02

  it's really, really, it's a lot. I mean, there's, there's thousands of pages, literally, of transcripts of what they recorded with him. But that's how it, the story goes of how the nine first appear is basically this guy Vinod. But mostly Vinod. So the interesting, interesting thing about this guy, Dr. Vinod was his name. He was friends with Gandhi, right? They were, they were really, they were really close. So this was something I learned like way later into the process of the film. Because, you know, this was, as you know, it took like, almost 10 years. And it was mostly because these new facts and things were just like, come up that I never knew, or somebody would say, hey, have you seen this? And, and so Vinod, like I only really discovered a couple of years into

• 23:29Speaker 02

  it, but he was an interesting guy. And he was on a tour at the time, in the United States, going to like rotary clubs and dinner parties, like lecturing about theosophy, and spiritualism, and all sorts of stuff like that. And it is very, very little information on this guy. I mean, we tried to dig up like, everything we possibly could. But that's what we know about him. He was a professor at a university in Bombay. And again, with Puharich, like, he never mentions any of that. His version of the story is this guy, they'd Just randomly came in, fell into a trance, no context, you know, never mentions it.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  So that begins this like, okay, what's, what's really going on here? Because he clearly is, has a background that's, that's interesting that he just never mentioned. And then when Bhuvnath leaves eventually, I think 54, he goes back and it never talks about him again. You know, there was this huge moment in his life, the nine first comes through, through this guy. And he just sort of like, never talks about it. I think that's where the conspiracy starts. As far as what people believe to be like, I guess a psy op, I mean.

• 24:45Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  I don't want, we don't have to get into that now.

• 24:48Jesse Michels?

  No, I want to get into the psy op elements of it, but it, it sounds like fundamentally he's a believer in extrasensory perception, psychic abilities, right? He's not cynical about those things.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Who is it?

• 25:01Jesse Michels?

  Gharach, yeah.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  No, yeah, that's, I think, a big question. And even now, I, I always think, but I mean, yeah, there's just no question he was interested in that.

• 25:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And earnestly, or do you think it was some front?

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Oh, earnestly, yeah.

• 25:14Jesse Michels?

  Okay. Because what's, and we'll get into this in a little bit, but that there are also possible prosaic explanations around exotic electromagnetic wavelengths that can cause, you know, thoughts to be implanted in people and stuff, which is nuts. But I think he wouldn't reduce everything to that would be my rough understanding personally.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, definitely not. Yeah, there's a lot to get into there, but basically, so what did the nine say?

• 25:41Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  And so again, it's really, it's a lot. So I have to give a shout out to Dick Russell.

• 25:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I do.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  So he, he's awesome.

• 25:53Jesse Michels?

  Great guy.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  And he, he's written some amazing books. And so he, he was friends with this woman, Mary Ann Schenfield, this, you know, allegedly amazing psychic. She passed away, but I got to know Dick and he said, you know, I met Buharach once. In fact, I tape recorded an interview with him. It was 94, literally the year before Buharach died slash was found dead mysteriously. But he recorded an interview with him because at the time Dick Russell was wanting to write like a definitive book about MKUltra and he wanted to interview these people involved in it. In fact, he has one of the only interviews as far as I know with Sidney Gottlieb. Spent a whole day with

• 26:38Speaker 02

  him. He literally showed, told me to show it up at his house and said, hey, you know, yes or no, will you let me interview you? And he said, yes. And so he has that. So that this was part of that research he was doing for a book, but.

• 26:51Jesse Michels?

  Just for the audience, real quick, because I know we're getting into what the nine said. But Sidney Gottlieb was known as the kind of US version of Joseph Mengele, a poisoner in chief, an architect of MKUltra from the Technical Staff Services. So that's wild. Dick Russell spent a whole day with him.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:07Jesse Michels?

  So what, what are the nine saying?

• 27:09Speaker 02

  So, yeah, it's a lot of the sort of usual, I guess, channeling talk where there's this idea that there's been this, this surveillance of Earth and that they've been monitoring Earth and they've been seeing the negative things happening. They've been seeing wars, they've been seeing nuclear weapons and they're wanting to help, basically. The, the general message is this idea that they are, are wanting to help the human race, you know,

• 27:48Speaker 02

  basically not destroy itself. This, you know, goes on way through the seventies when Buharach, the nine come back. But it was basically a lot of, yeah, trying to help humanity. It was a lot of like. You've probably heard a lot about how they sometimes these channelers are, you know, what is it called, like remote writing when someone's in a trance? Automatic. Yeah, automatic writing. There is a lot of like very complex equations that would come through that would the nine, the nine meaning Vinod in a trance, speaking as the nine, a lot of like, write this down because you'll understand later what it means sort of stuff. And we have this notebook that he wrote everything in. It's, it's really,

• 28:33Speaker 02

  I mean, maybe I'm sure you might know somebody who could look at this. I mean, I, I'm just making the film. I mean, I'm very. Well, we should see if any of it checks with actual science or math or. It's crazy. They would say the nine, they would say, you know, okay, look, you're contacting us through a psychic, but if you want a clearer feed, a clearer transmission, you have to put the psychic in a Faraday cage. And on top of that, you should tweak the Faraday cage and build it this way and use this type of metal and use this. They were, they were telling him and constructing him how to like build the Faraday cage in a specific way

• 29:17Speaker 02

  that would like help this transmission. And it did. Whoa. Because you can hear the tapes. It was a lot. It was very like stalled speech and waiting. And then when they did the Faraday cage sessions, it was like, just boom, they would talk. So I heard that. I was like, okay, well, that, that's weird, you know? So crazy. Because like, again, there's a lot of it that you could just say, oh, you know, this could have been made up or whatever. But when it gets to that, it was very, very specific stuff, you know, copper, they're, they're big on copper. You need to use that and it needs to be, you know, these dimensions. I mean, really specific stuff and they would follow it. So they were basically like following instructions from.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  The nine.

• 29:58Jesse Michels?

  And you see the results get better as far as their channeling.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  You see the results get better. And that again, to me, I just thought that's, that's, that's interesting because it's not just sort of like, you know, spiritual mumbo jumbo.

• 30:14Jesse Michels?

  Hand wavy stuff. That's like totally unfalsifiable.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:17Jesse Michels?

  It's like the, literally like the transmissions are coming. When you say that it's getting better, it's just like more, more gets channeled, like more substance.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  More information clearer.

• 30:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Just sort of more precise. And the other thing too was again, it was this copper, this thing with copper where they would also say, okay, what you need to do is you need to get the, this is really crazy. Cause of what happens later on in his story, but they would say, you know, you need to have copper touching your, your skin. And so you would, you would need some sort of like bracelet or something that would kind of like constantly be touching your skin. In order again, for like the, the transmission to be better and they would do that.

• 31:02Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  What's crazy is, uh, one of the space kids that I met and that we interviewed for the film. She whipped out this, uh, this was, you know, only a couple of years ago. She whipped out this bracelet she had that was like a copper, a little copper plate on this bracelet that she said, like they all had to wear. When they were doing their channeling sessions with him decades later. So the copper thing is strange and he and Puharch obsessed over that. And that's the other thing. To me, you know, being a little skeptical, I was like, well, someone of Puharch's, uh, you know, academic abilities, like clearly he, he, he wouldn't take the time.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  And the energy like to look into this stuff as deep as he did, you know, like he like obsessed over this. He would go meet other academics. Hey, does this check out? And, you know, he really like. Was obsessive about this being legitimate.

• 31:57Jesse Michels?

  And Phyllis Schlammer, who later wrote The Only Planet of Choice, which channels the nine, I think she talks about the nine with respect to messages around the earth being a bottleneck of consciousness, right? And like other planets being more ascended and these nine really trying to help raise consciousness on earth, which might sort of sound like a cliche, but.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, one thing that they were doing at the round table was that this psychic, this one particular psychic would would claim that at a certain time of night, they would see an orb and they would go outside by the ocean and they would see orbs. And this happened and the only, you know, evidence I have is Buratt's own writing because we have all of his journals and he writes this in his journals where he literally says like this psychic would just blur it out, you know, 11 o'clock, you know, tonight and they'd go out and they would see an orb.

• 32:59Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  And I just thought that was interesting because of there's so much talk of this orb stuff going on currently, I don't know a whole lot about it, but I just that kind of rang a bell where I'm like, oh yeah, he wrote about that. And he, he, he did many experiments where he allegedly took photos, which of course, you know, weren't in the big stash of photos we had from back then, but he, that's what he claimed that there was like orb activity. This would have been, you know, early 50s again.

• 33:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, so trippy. Yeah, no, that almost sounds like Chris Bledsoe or something, these people who seem to attract these orbs. And it would make sense because those people also seem to be sort of high sigh or, you know, you know, have higher kind of mind, matter capabilities or whatever. There's seems like there's some sort of correlation there. The connection Lavenda makes is that all these people conducting the seance, bringing in these nine, maybe extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings that go to the nine Egyptian gods or whatever. We don't exactly know what these nine beings are, but it's like a council and, and later the nine plays prominently because this channeler, Phyllis Schlammer.

• 34:12Jesse Michels?

  Like gets all these messages from the nine along with a lot of the kids and stuff. But, but that, that all of the people in this original seance with these blue blooded elites are also entangled with the JFK assassination, which is so crazy.

• 34:25Speaker 07

  To make a long story short, there's a seance that's held in late 52, early 53. I think it was the New Year's Eve of 52 to 53. And there are nine people involved in the seance. Now, these are not just some casual nine people you pick up like, you know, your neighbors or something, right? This was a DuPont and an Astor and a Forbes. I mean, everybody that represents the, the blue blooded Brahmins of American society, old money people were at a seance, a freaking seance, right? In the woods in Maine on New Year's Eve with Andrea Paharich. And one of them is the guy who was the inventor of the bell helicopter. Right? So.

• 35:08Jesse Michels?

  Is that Arthur Young?

• 35:08Speaker 07

  Arthur Young. So Arthur Young is there with his wife. His wife is Ruth Forbes Payne Young. Right? She had a lot of names. She was excessively nomenclatured. And so you have, you know, Ruth Forbes Payne Young. She's a Forbes. She was married to a George Payne, Lyman Payne, and also married to Arthur Young.

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• 35:57Jesse Michels?

  So in that seance with the, you know, these kind of blue blooded elites that Poharich is convening, I think one of the people who's close with Mary Bancroft, who's Dulles's mistress, is a woman named Ruth Forbes Payne. Yeah, Ruth Forbes Payne. And so she's a Forbes first. So again, going into the blue blooded elite thing. But I think her daughter is Ruth Payne, who takes in Lee Harvey Oswald. I know. And Lee Harvey Oswald is living with Ruth Payne. And I think gets a job at the Texas Book Depository in Texas, in Dallas, through Ruth Payne. And then ends up, you know.

• 36:37Jesse Michels?

  Maybe not being the lone gunman, but you know, attempting JFK's life.

• 36:41Speaker 07

  And in her home, she opens her door to some refugees, you know, people who are recent immigrants from Russia, Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina. And their kids.

• 36:51Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 36:52Speaker 07

  So they're living with Ruth Payne in this house in Texas. She gets him the job at the Texas School Book Depository.

• 37:01Jesse Michels?

  And so it's these weird entanglements where, and the nine believed themselves to be sort of agents, or sorry, the, the, the group in the seance believed themselves to be agents of these extraterrestrials, right? Like to be acting on their behalf. And so like, and I know poor or rich would stop at airports and try and meditate because he thought he would be bringing about world peace and that the nine would speak to him through his watch and stuff.

• 37:25Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 37:25Jesse Michels?

  And so I wonder sometimes, was it all good or was it bad? I mean, I don't think, you know, the assassination of JFK was good. He seemed like a great man who was resisting really dark forces. So it's a strange story.

• 37:40Jesse Michels?

  Well, I just wanted to hear something really strange about that.

• 37:42Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:43Jesse Michels?

  So.

• 37:46Jesse Michels?

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• 39:32Speaker 02

  I want to hear something really strange about that.

• 39:34Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  So.

• 39:35Jesse Michels?

  That's why you're here.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  This, yeah, this, this woman who I got to know very well, uh, who's in the film, she was Puharich's assistant for, for many years and starting in, I think, 63. Basically, she worked with him, I think, until like the, the mid eighties. And she, she's amazing. She's from Hawaii, um, very nice woman, but she met him in New York. She was a student at NYU and Puharich is working, um, but this is a whole other thing to get into, but he had started his company there called Intellectron Corporation. But she started as sort of an intern at this company, Intellectron, which was basically a biomedical research company.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  We can get into that. But basically she told me a story that, um, she was working at Intellectron the day JFK was assassinated and that these men in suits, she says, came into the offices, went into Puharich's office, said something to him that seemed very serious and they left. And she said the whole rest of the day, Puharich was out of sorts.

• 40:44Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 40:45Speaker 02

  This could be as simple as, you know, it how horrible that this, the president was shot, or it could have been something else. But she was very specific to. Say, I remember this happening. It was very strange. But to finish the nine thing, basically, in the fifth, the roundtable ends in fifty seven, I think. Right? Meaning they, for whatever reason, I mean, I think I know the reason, basically, he moved on to Intellectron, which I can talk about, but he, you know, he claims that we ran out of funding, the benefactors lost interest and it shut down. But all the while, he was getting money from the army. I mean, there's records of that. But so the nine stopped allegedly.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  And I think Lavenda, I think, talks about this, but a lot of like the early nine related conspiracies start around that time, too, with this idea that it was a psy op or that it was this early psychological warfare experiment where can we get, you know, certain groups of people to believe in something and to what extent. And a lot of people think that that was like the nine. They think that's all it was. They think any sort of like real channeling or any is just, you know, is fake and that it was all set up as this sort of psychological warfare experiment, which, you know, there's,

• 42:12Speaker 02

  there's reasons to think that that could be true, but that's where a lot of that, you know, starts.

• 42:19Jesse Michels?

  You know, I think that's possible, but you think about like, when did MKUltra start? It was probably, there's probably stuff going on before fifty two. But really, the Korean War is like when, you know, conventionally, it's dated to. And the idea that they were that sophisticated at the very start of MKUltra, where they could convince these sort of elite members of society that they were in touch with these specific extraterrestrial beings. And that that those extraterrestrial beings were constructing.

• 42:50Jesse Michels?

  Faraday chambers that were able to like make the messages they received more effective, like, like this elaborate sort of magic trick that that seems a little beyond the pale to me.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:01Jesse Michels?

  But um, that's.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  It's a big mystery. I mean, even I I'll admit it, the years and years I research, I mean, even I don't know, like a lot of people I talk to who are interested in this stuff and know about the film and so forth, like, they think that I know all the answers and I I even I wish I did.

• 43:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  And it's not like I'm hiding something because I'm worried that, you know, I'm gonna be a monitor. I just don't, you know?

• 43:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  I know what was in the archives and a lot of the film for me was like, okay, what, what do we know? What is a fact? And let's like work off that.

• 43:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  And so it was really just like, okay, here's the transcripts. Here's what they were saying.

• 43:40Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of what are the facts, we have to get back to this Intelletron thing.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:45Jesse Michels?

  Like, so you're the implication of this story that this company had something to do with the assassination of JFK? Or like, were these men in tweed suits raiding the office, CIA? And were they, they thinking that Intelletron had something to do with this?

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Or?

• 44:04Speaker 02

  So, um, so Puharic, yeah, he leaves the round table. He moves to New York City, or he moves to Austin. A lot of people know this in relation to Puharic because he lived there most of his life.

• 44:16Jesse Michels?

  Upstate New York.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, you know, an hour on the train north of the city. You know, Mad Men, of course, the show. Like, I didn't even realize all the characters, they all live in Austin. Like Don, I guess there's, I remember watching it, but there's some reference, like, they live in Austin. So it's a very, you know, wealthy area. And all of a sudden, Puharic has what's considered like a mansion there, basically.

• 44:40Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Huge house. He moves there. He tells his family that basically he just got this contract to study basically more of what was going on at the Round Table Foundation, but there were specific people who needed him to move to New York. So they moved there. I mean, his family life is a whole different thing. He had, um, his, his wife sadly committed suicide around this time.

• 45:03Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was very like, you know, distraught about that and.

• 45:08Jesse Michels?

  What happened?

• 45:09Speaker 04

  I received a grim call from Jenny's father.

• 45:14Speaker 04

  Jenny had quietly leapt from the hospital roof into eternity.

• 45:23Speaker 04

  I wept for Jenny. I wept for my failure to keep her healthy and happy. I wept for our three daughters, who would never know a normal upbringing.

• 45:36Speaker 04

  I cried out to God in crushing despair.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  But so they moved to New York. He starts this company called Intelletron. He gets a, Annie Jacobson helped figure this out. He gets a grant for $300,000, which at the time would have been like at least a million dollars or more

• 46:03Speaker 02

  from the Atomic Energy Commission, which is strange. And we have all the documents that we found that prove that they went and visited him. They gave him this grant. So he starts this thing Intelletron, which is basically labeled as a biomedical research company. So they have an office in a hell's kitchen. And again with Puharich, I just, it's, it's, I have to to stress like, there is always these instances in his life, this one being the, really the first, but it was sort of the round table too, where like all of a sudden, he just has this company and this, and the, and these employees. Yeah. And this fun, you know, all of a sudden, it's just, you know,

• 46:46Speaker 02

  kind of expensive to have a big office in New York City and all this, and all this state of the art at the time, electronic equipment and Well, it sounds like in classic intelligence world, front sort of stuff. Well, How does Epstein have a huge hedge fund? Oh, yeah. He just always had, and it's always this company. And basically, and this was early sixties, now 62, 63. This is when he starts the, the hearing experiments, where basically he claims that

• 47:18Speaker 02

  Deaf people would come into the office and they would do research on them. And basically they designed a, a device which would enable deaf people to, to, to hear basically by emitting a certain frequency that would somehow bypass like the, the normal way we hear and go directly to the hearing center in the brain. And it was this breakthrough medical discovery, which, you know, go figure goes completely quiet. No one, no one ever hears about it. Yeah. But that's when he first starts this whole, you know, radio frequency stuff, voices

• 47:59Speaker 02

  in the head kind of stuff, which again was under this, you know, we're researching on deaf people, we're, we're doing this, you know, in a medical sense, we're helping people. But that's when these, you know, men in suits show up. That's when, once again, he's getting contracts from Navy, CIA. Again, almost everyone that was involved at the round table was back in this Intelletron situation with him. And so that, I think the connection, I mean, I don't want to just jump to conclusions, but I think what I've often thought with this JFK thing and why to Melanie is assistant

• 48:40Speaker 02

  seemed like such a big deal is that it may have had some tie in with a mind control, sort of like a Sirhan, Sirhan situation with Lee Harvey Oswald. I mean, I know that's like a pretty crazy bold claim, but that's just, just what I've thought. It's not that. Because they were doing that. This is, we're talking, and again, this is something I don't think a lot of people know. And I think people don't realize a lot of that MKUltra stuff happened much earlier, but they were doing this work in 62, 63 of like send, basically sending messages to, to people's heads, you know?

• 49:22Speaker 02

  And, and we have footage, we have, I mean, it's, it's real. The people from the Atomic Energy Commission write very clearly in letters we found, like we went, Annie Jacobson talks about it, I think in her book, like one of the guys is like, I don't believe you, you know, test me and just, and, and did the test on himself and it worked. And then it goes, it goes dark. And Intelletron closes and all of a sudden it's on to the next sort of, you know, mysterious company.

• 49:52Jesse Michels?

  Deep Black Program or yeah, some other front company.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:56Jesse Michels?

  That's really, really trippy. Is there any explicit connection between Lee Harvey Oswald and Intelletron or that sort of speculation on your part?

• 50:05Speaker 02

  I haven't looked, but I just think, you know, if you want to go there, it's like, like Lavenda says, the whole connection there at the round table. And then this weird incident where they seem to make a big deal about telling him about the assassination at that exact time, that exact year, they're researching ways to, to be able to send messages to someone's mind to do something specific, Manchurian candidate, et cetera, et cetera.

• 50:29Jesse Michels?

  Apparently Dulles did not want the fact that Ruth Payne had actually been at the summer house or whatever. I think that summer, right before JFK was assassinated.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:40Jesse Michels?

  He, he did not want, you know, that at all on rec, record. I think Mary Bancroft like started to talk about it and he like, you know, he kind of acted like he didn't know what was going on when like, you know, he, he would have reacted earnestly if, if, if he hadn't, he clearly did know what was going on. Obviously Dulles was probably, you know, among a very short list of people, if you, you know, the intersection of capabilities, motivation to, to take out JFK.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:05Jesse Michels?

  Dulles has to be on anybody's short list.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:08Jesse Michels?

  And then to further kind of steel man there maybe being a, a there, there. We know that Jack Ruby was an MKUltra patient.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:17Jesse Michels?

  I mean, like 95%, you know, like you have letters between Jolly West and Sidney Gottlieb, who's definitely the kind of architect of MKUltra.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:27Jesse Michels?

  You know, and, and Jolly West was, you know, UCLA psychiatry, but clearly very involved in Operation Midnight Climax and maybe brainwashed Charles Manson. And he sees Jack Ruby, who never remembers killing Lee Harvey Oswald.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:42Jesse Michels?

  In his jail cell alone, no cameras, comes back, comes out and says, uh, Jack Ruby has had a psychiatric break. And then Jack Ruby, you know, who was fully lucid, but just didn't remember having shot Lee Harvey Oswald. Talks about Jews dying outside of his cell and just like literally cracks.

• 52:02Jesse Michels?

  So very, very strange, you know, possible connections.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  Well, the other really strange thing at this time. Was that Puharich was working with someone named Jose Delgado. Who you probably might know who that is.

• 52:18Speaker 03

  Delgado, Alfredo, brilliant researcher from Spain. If planted radio receivers in the heads of bulls. Delgado has remote control of the animal. Do you realize the fantastic possibilities if from the outside? We could modify the inside. Could we give messages to the inside?

• 52:40Speaker 02

  He was a guy from Spain. He was a researcher. He was involved with a lot of this sort of mind stuff in the sixties, late 50s, 60s. But I think he's mostly known as somebody who did experiments with implanting. Putting an implant in the head of a bull and basically being able to remote control. A bull and basically say, go this, stop, go left, go right. And he was able to do it. There's literally footage of, of the experiment happening. And Puharich, we later found out was, was. Close friends, as Puharich says himself, with Delgado. We found letters between the two of them during this time.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  And it was nothing too sinister. It was mostly like, hey, I'm going to go to this conference. Are you going to be there? But they clearly were. Close. I mean, there's some people I met during the process of this who were like, don't. Don't even go there and don't talk about the connection you had with Delgado. But, you know. I, I was interested to.

• 53:46Jesse Michels?

  No, it's fascinating. You have a guy who's being able to pacify a bull and play the bull like a video game. And that clearly was the heir to MKUltra, which was mostly sodium pentathol LSD, that sort of thing. It's chemical based. If in the early 60s, we had chips that could control animals and you had heirs to MK Ultra, like MK Often, which were done, I believe, at the Science and Engineering Institute in the Northeast as well.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:16Jesse Michels?

  It's like, of course, you know, we're going to be way more advanced on that stuff now. It's creepy to think about. It's one of those things you don't even want to think about it because the second you do think about it, you get into reality being far weirder than we could ever imagine.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  So, yeah, if you think, okay, they're putting an implant in the head of a bull, like you say, basically remote controlling the thing, why wouldn't you try to do that to a human being? I mean, why wouldn't you? And I think that was going on at Intellectron. I mean, I'm sure of it because there's this way too many, there's way too many connections. I don't have a document that says, here's the experiment we did. But that whole decade of the 60s was such an odd decade for Bhattacharya. He was so like quiet, like there's all these records of the round table, you know, tapes, photos, everything.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  And all of a sudden you get to the 60s, it's like nothing really, very little documentation, very little, you know, photographic evidence of what he was up to. And all of a sudden, the 70s, boom, picks back up, there's 100 photo. So it's a very mysterious decade and it was just, it just so happened to be when he had this company in Electron.

• 55:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  With these very odd connections, Delgado.

• 55:38Jesse Michels?

  I think it's becoming super clear that.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  And the other thing too.

• 55:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  Not to cut you off is I've, with all this stuff in this film, I've gone to like the ends of the earth to try to track down, absolutely nothing, this place never existed in Electron. You would not find, the only thing I ever found was there was a guy, a pretty interesting guy, actually his name is Beardsley Graham. He was involved in NASA in the 60s, early 70s, colleague of Bhattacharya's, but he was like, I guess.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  He was somehow involved in Intellectron as like an outside consultant or something. And in his archives at Berkeley, there was like a couple of documents that had, you know, an electron letterhead and it was like correspondence. And that was like the only thing I could find. And even in that, it was nothing revealing. It was again, it was just like records and sort of like, you know, financial records, which again, didn't point to anything.

• 56:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  You know, so, so there's just, this place did not exist.

• 56:43Jesse Michels?

  It's so crazy. It very much did. Well, it's, I mean, now I feel like it's one of these things that's slowly shifting, you know, and I think more and more people are gonna start to recognize the fact that MKUltra had a role, not only in the JFK assassination, but in the RFK assassination. You mentioned Sirhan Sirhan, who had written in his diary right before he shot RFK, just like over and over, it was like some neuro linguistic programming was coming through him. To this day, does not remember having shot him. He's like, you know, I must kill him, must kill, you know, sort of thing. And you have RFK Jr. now, who's head of the FDA. He himself has gone deep on his father's death.

• 57:27Jesse Michels?

  I think he was 14 at the time. And I think he recognizes that he was actually shot from the back and not from the front. So there was this other gunman, again, just like JFK. I think he thinks that, you know, MKUltra was involved. You know, this guy, William Jennings Bryan, not to be confused with the 1890s William Jennings Bryan, was this kind of mysterious, deep, stady figure who I believe was tight with Sirhan Sirhan. And so I, you know, I think these things are gonna start to come out, that MKUltra was far more pervasive than, than we ever realized. And there's even a book called, I don't know if you know about this book, The Controllers by Martin Cannon?

• 58:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. He mentions Buhar in that.

• 58:12Jesse Michels?

  So let's, this book is insane. What's the, what's the thesis of this book?

• 58:17Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 58:48Jesse Michels?

  As you know, a lot of the guests I sit down with, whether they're physicists, intelligence officers, people who've worked inside black programs, are operating at a really impressive level mentally. Sometimes I feel like I'm a chimp talking to human beings. Often their work takes a toll, and a lot of them track their health obsessively. Regular lab work, obscure biomarkers, often things that most people never look at. Meanwhile, last time I went to a primary care doctor, they ran maybe like eight biomarkers, and they told me I was fine and sent me home. This massive difference between the ordinary, broken, and limited healthcare system and what elite people are doing to track their health got me interested in Superpower.

• 59:33Jesse Michels?

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• 1:00:16Jesse Michels?

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• 1:00:47Jesse Michels?

  What's the thesis of this book?

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  It's basically about this idea of the fabrication of alien abductions, right? That's at least a big part of it.

• 1:00:58Jesse Michels?

  Some of them being chip implantations done basically for MKUltra purposes. And people being tricked into saying, oh, you're like, this is your guardian angel or whatever.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  And There is a whole thing. We can go, we can get to that later. But the whole electron thing, basically to cap that off, it was, um, yeah. One of many of these, these very, to me, it became very obvious fronts. I mean, there's just no question about it, you know? That, that he had, and they were doing all that type of experimentation. Again, there's footage of them doing an experiment on a woman. There's no sound, but it's obvious what's happening. You can see, you know, she's in the other room. She's behind a wall there in the other room. He has his device that he invented in the early 60s called the TD 100, which I've told you about.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  And this basically enables like a certain frequency to be sent to somebody. And, you know, it's kind of like a, a situation where if you're exposed to this frequency, it's at a certain wavelength that only you can hear and anyone else around you can't, can't hear. And this kind of ties into what he was doing later in the seventies. But they're doing an experiment on, on a woman using this. And it's very clear what's happening and it's very clear it's working. This was, this was like Neuralink, basically.

• 1:02:25Jesse Michels?

  And you could, you could, you could send or implant thoughts

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:29Jesse Michels?

  To a person.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Jesse Michels?

  And that's crazy. And so how exactly did it work? You played a tone and then you would?

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Well, there's two things. One of the things he invented back then too, which again was, who harsh says himself was classified. And you've probably heard of this as the tooth implant.

• 1:02:46Speaker 06

  A device could be inserted into one of your back molars. That acted as a transducer that could send signals across the facial nerves into the hearing centers of the brain.

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  It took about a month of, of daily therapy and they would have their hearing improve significantly.

• 1:03:08Speaker 06

  It was extraordinary because it was a totally new way of understanding how we hear.

• 1:03:16Speaker 06

  You could send signals to someone secretly. It had a lot of potential.

• 1:03:24Speaker 03

  We gave a demonstration at the Pentagon. We fitted this device to this general. And we had somebody out in the hall broadcasting. And he said, God damn it, I hear it. God damn it, I hear it. The bastard did it.

• 1:03:42Speaker 02

  It was basically a radio receiver. That would be, I guess at one point it was, Puharich kind of says it, says it as though you could slip on some sort of thing. Like anyone could just kind of like slip this thing on their tooth. But in other instances, it was very specific about it being like a, like a real like cat, what do you call it? A molar or something that would really be put on your tooth. And that would basically be able to receive a radio signal. It would pick it up here and it would send it through the nerves of the face that would basically connect to whatever in your brain you register, you know, sounds. And so, so you could be, again, and you could, you could clearly see them doing this.

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  And this was very short, a short distance. Like I said, a woman right across the, the room. And you can clearly see they're, they're, they're able to do it. So you can imagine if the research continued, at what length can this go? Can this be in another town? Could it be in another state? Could it be in another country? So that's what they were, they were experimenting with. But so the first part of it was the tooth where you could send a message to the, the tooth implant, hear it in the head. And the second part was an offshoot of that where basically, from what I understand, you sort of bypass the whole tooth thing. And it's a very specific radio frequency that I guess you can't tune into like on a normal.

• 1:05:11Speaker 02

  Frequency band or radio.

• 1:05:13Jesse Michels?

  Do you know what frequency?

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  No, he doesn't talk about it.

• 1:05:16Jesse Michels?

  That would seem to be extremely classified would be my guess.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  It has a lot to do with sine waves.

• 1:05:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  I must, I must say again, like I'm, this is not my forte.

• 1:05:26Jesse Michels?

  Sure, sure.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  A lot of this I stumbled into. But it was this idea that again, you would bypass the tooth and the, and the, and the frequency would essentially just be sent directly to the head and be picked up in that same area that the tooth was essentially in connecting to.

• 1:05:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, just to also substantiate what you're saying to the audience who might think we're crazy. I mean, Beethoven, as early as Beethoven, he was deaf and he used something called bone conduction. Where he would bite on to a, a conductive rod while he was playing piano. That would bypass his ear canal and the vibrations would literally play in his brain. And so he would like de facto be able to hear his own playing without actually kind of, you know, hearing it through his ear canal.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:12Jesse Michels?

  So that is a thing. Uh, there's a story of, there's a kind of apocryphal, but I think substantiated story. Around Lucille Ball who had just.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  I've heard about this.

• 1:06:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's in the telepathy tapes.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Jesse Michels?

  And she had gotten a tooth filling or whatever, and she's driving and she starts to hear the radio in her head because she still has metal in her teeth. I think there's a story with Puharach where some guy works at a metal mill or something.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was his first aha moment is that they got a mental patient, a guy who claimed he was hearing voices, but his family's convinced he's, he's, you know, sane. And we're worried because they want to put him in a mental hospital and we don't want that to happen. So, you know, can you check him out? So they, they bring him in, they get to know him and he, yeah, he says, okay, I work at this metal factory. Where I guess basically he's like grinding metal pieces and this kind of thing. Annie Jacobson talks about it too in her book.

• 1:07:06Speaker 08

  Puharach's theory was that this metal dust had somehow collected on his teeth. And in essence, acted like a radio antenna.

• 1:07:18Speaker 03

  We found out he was tuned to station W O R in New York.

• 1:07:23Speaker 08

  And they put the mental patient in their Faraday cage, which blocks out all electronic signals. And the mental patient suddenly is no longer hearing voices, is like perfectly sane.

• 1:07:39Speaker 03

  And sure enough, soon as we locked the door, the sound ceased. Open the door, the sound would come on.

• 1:07:46Speaker 08

  That's pretty remarkable of Puharich to think that all through and to test it in the laboratory.

• 1:07:53Speaker 02

  And that kicked off like all of this research where it said, okay, well, if that's possible, like what else is possible with that basic idea that that's, you know, real?

• 1:08:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And if you can bypass the ear canal with vibration, whatever is processing the audio ultimately in the brain, we know that you can turn molecular mass into frequency. Everything has a quote unquote resonant frequency.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:18Jesse Michels?

  This sounds woo woo, but what I just said is fact.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:22Jesse Michels?

  Could you then use some sort of electromagnetic, you know, radio wave or some wave that connects directly to the brain? And that kind of gets into freaky territory because you end up in sort of psychic warfare, you know, that's ubiquitous or whatever and widespread. Like, it's kind of weird to think about. But I mean, if you're saying that was possible back then, it's just wild. And then you mentioned sine waves. I just interviewed a guy named Dan Sherman.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:51Jesse Michels?

  And you texted me when you saw the interview because you said it, you felt like it kind of comported with a lot of the stuff you had been studying around.

• 1:08:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:00Jesse Michels?

  Puharich. If Puharich is doing this stuff in the 60s, then it kind of makes me believe the Sherman stuff a whole lot more, which was happening in the early 90s.

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:12Jesse Michels?

  Around messages he is downloading. But it, maybe it does beget the question, you know, is the Sherman stuff? Genuinely, you know, extraterrestrial? Or were people beaming messages that were extraterrestrial to test the veracity of the messaging or whatever through him? And I don't know, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think he was lying and I think the program is real.

• 1:09:35Speaker 09

  The genesis of it was in 1947. We came in contact with an alien species. And in 1960, they started a, a project. It was called Project Preserve Destiny. And it was designed to genetically manage fetuses, human fetuses, so that they would have the heightened ability to do this particular thing that I was going to school for.

• 1:10:03Speaker 09

  And he said, I'm going to play a tone and I want you to mentally hum that tone. And he said that you will eventually feel a connection. The line will change. When I saw the sine wave move, I went, oh, okay. Well, there's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening. That this is not, this is not possible.

• 1:10:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Do you think that it was kind of a development from, um, you know, what you were looking into with Puharich?

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  I'd have to imagine it was. And that's always the question, you know?

• 1:10:38Jesse Michels?

  You said there are a lot of sine waves. He literally says, I had to flatten a sine wave.

• 1:10:41Speaker 09

  When I saw the, the, the sine wave move, it, it is like it came into focus, this thing that I was doing to my head.

• 1:10:50Speaker 02

  That's why I, that's why I reached out because again, like for me, a lot of this was, okay, I have all this information. I'm not a, you know, I'm not a physicist. I'm not, most of this stuff, but I'd have to imagine it's connected because Puharich, the way this machine worked as well, had something to do with specific sine waves, very, very specific. You know, he was always talking about sine waves. And so I just, I can't imagine that that wasn't some sort of early.

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  Interpretation of what, what he was talking about.

• 1:11:24Jesse Michels?

  And you have this machine that you like, where you like, you're matching tones and stuff. I mean, that sounds exactly like.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's all tone, it's all tones. And then the thing with the machine is again, um, and like you said, sounding crazy like for a long time, making this film, you know, like I had to really grapple with like that a lot because I knew what I was hearing and, and sort of not so much researching is a lot of stuff we got were like tapes of these experiments. So it's not just like, I'm reading a report, you're hearing it. So I'm hearing, you know, these channeling sessions, I'm hearing these experiments he's doing in electron. And, you know, you can just tell something's going on, something strange. And so you're right, I mean, I think like if that was happening in 60, 61, 62, I mean,

• 1:12:15Speaker 02

  I don't know, and this gets transitions into the Uri Geller stuff, which I believe is very much involved in that same sort of research. But.

• 1:12:28Jesse Michels?

  Top 10.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  Well, I think, um, it's my belief that, uh, Geller was, was sort of like a, um, uh, mind control guinea pig in a way.

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  Uh, there's a lot of context that would, that would prove that that was what his sort of role was in this whole.

• 1:12:49Jesse Michels?

  We're explaining that.

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  Story.

• 1:12:50Jesse Michels?

  That's, that's fascinating.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  Well, he, um, so basically Puharich, uh, in the sixties, we had Intellectron. And the thing is too, with this device, he invented the TD 100, it was called, which was called Transdermal 100. But, um, again, this was supposed to be this breakthrough, you know, medical device where, where people who are deaf can, can hear, you know, the, the, think about what we could do with this. But it just goes like, again, he never talks about it. No, no one ever in his family, oh yeah, I wonder whatever happened to that. Like you would think that with such an amazing discovery, like something would have come of it. Or it was just like, went, went dark, basically, probably around 68.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  Um, he never talks about it again, only way later in his life. He never ever talks about it. Of course, we learned he was using it with the space kids years later that nobody knew about that. But um, so he's the, he's coming off the tail end of all the Intelletron stuff, right? Right when he meets Geller, like literally it was 1970 is when he first hears about Geller, goes to Israel. Intelletron is still happening then. I mean, from what I understand, like it was still very much, you know, an operating company. So he's going to Israel to meet Uri Geller while he's still very much involved in the research of essentially sending messages to people.

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  And he gets to Israel, he discovers Uri Geller. I mean, I think a lot of people know this story, but you know, Geller was, was allegedly this very amazing psychic guy who could bend, bend spoons with his mind and read people's minds and do all sorts of things like that. He could like hover his hand over a watch and then it would, the hands would move and, and all these kinds of things. And so. Do you believe he could actually do those things? Or do you think that was stage magic? Um, all I can say about that is he did bend a spoon for us when we did the interview and I don't know how he did it. Whoa. So that's all I can say. It could have been a trick. And you.

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  Uh, I can't to this day figure out how he did it. You know, the easy debunks on things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all I can say is like, yeah, it could have been a trick. Yeah. But it was definitely kind of strange and cool and he did do it. But um, he, so Puhar, you know, again, the story goes, Puhar was kind of smitten with, with Geller and oh my God, this guy's, you know, an amazing psychic. I'm in, I'm interested in psychic phenomena. I want to study him. So he brings him back. But what people don't really know, uh, unless they read Puhar's book on, on Uri Geller, which is kind of like a rare book to, to come across. But he has this whole episode in Israel before he even brings him back to the United States,

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  where he basically hypnotizes Geller and you know, the nine come through. Really? And all of a sudden, after however many years, you know, 53 from when Dr. Vana did it to, to 71. And guess what happens? Uh, he starts channeling the nine, Uri Geller. And so Puharich is, you know, shock, apparently shocked and, you know, I can't believe this is happening. You know, there's all these tape recordings we have of this going down. And that kind of kickstarts again, the whole nine thing comes back into the picture through, through Uri Geller. And all of a sudden, they're like back, you know, and he's

• 1:16:28Speaker 02

  channeling them, channeling them, and he's communicating with them. But it's very strange because Puharich, as I just said, was still very much involved in the Intellektron Company, which, as we know, was experimenting with being able to send voices, send thoughts to people. And so one could assume that Uri Geller was a, you know, experiment in that way, when the nine just so happened to reappear all those years later. And it's also strange because I think a lot of people know, like, Geller has claimed his involvement with Mossad and his Israeli intelligence and all these things. There's reasons to believe Puharich

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  may have been a double agent for Israel. In fact, he says, he says it.

• 1:17:16Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  Tape. But he kind of says it in a jokey way. And so I had always just stuck to me like, okay, is this a joke?

• 1:17:24Jesse Michels?

  Have you found any connections between him?

• 1:17:26Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:17:27Jesse Michels?

  Israel?

• 1:17:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:28Jesse Michels?

  What were the connections? Besides, you're a yeller, obviously.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  Um, well, he, so we did tons of like FOIA requests, trying to, trying to find stuff on him and like, basically got nothing. But the only thing we were able to get was this big chunk of FBI documents, which is basically monitoring all of his movements in Israel, literally page after page. He just got here, he's leaving, he picked this bag up, he did, you know, in the exact years he's, um, he's going there to see Geller. So that that, there's that. And then, um, multiple people who knew him, who never really said anything until much later in their lives, um, told me that he, he was Mossad.

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  Again, I there's I don't have a document or something that that proves this. And then Puharach also mentions in a letter he was writing to, there's a good friend of his, this woman who kind of helped him with bookkeeping and stuff. And she was like his closest confidant. And he would write these letters to her all the time. It's very clear that they were close. You know, he spoke with her very differently than other people, but he basically admitted to being part of a Israeli US mind, you know, mind control program that was happening at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, which isn't, you know, is an army base.

• 1:19:02Speaker 02

  And I read that and, you know, again, what, what do you make of it? It's either true or for some reason he's making it up. I don't know why.

• 1:19:12Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating.

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  So, so he wrote that and then in this tape, he kind of jokingly says, oh, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a double agent.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  For, for the Israelis and, and he also was always there, you know, that's the other thing like, yes, he went to, to, to investigate Geller. But, you know, he was even through the eighties, like well after him and Geller kind of parted ways, he's always going there.

• 1:19:39Speaker 02

  On a lot of the channeling tapes that are happening in the seventies with the space kids, he's, he's referring by name to Israeli generals. This one guy, Aharon Yariv, who was, I think, the head of Army Intelligence, very, you can look him up. I mean, he was constantly, should we give this information to Yariv, always referring to him and other people high up there. So a lot of red flags, nothing, again, no concrete, you know, document or something, but it's strange and.

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, again, that's something like after all this time, I'm still thinking, okay, what was really going on there, you know?

• 1:20:24Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating, man. What do you think when he goes to Israel initially to see Geller in 1971 and Geller's kind of channeling the nine again? Is it like the nine are somehow like he has a protocol to like summon these specific nine extraterrestrial beings? Is it this cynical hypnotic technique that he's doing where he's implanting this idea of nine extraterrestrial beings? Or what do you think that is? Is he is he calling in something that exists in reality? These nine, you know, entities? Or is he creating those entities synthetically?

• 1:21:04Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPact.com, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:21:34Speaker 02

  First of all, just to quickly mention like this, this idea that Buharach is very, there's always two stories, right? So when he went to Israel for the first time in some lecture we have, he said, oh, you know, there was this parapsychology foundation and they wanted me to go. So they scraped some money together and I was able to get a plane ticket. And I went to, I went to Tel Aviv and then that's how I got there. Right? And then Geller himself said, oh yeah, no, he was sent by the CIA like directly. He was consulting for CIA. That's why he came. And then someone else close to Buharach said, oh yeah, like that he was CIA. That's why he went. But in this lecture, in fact, twice in two separate lectures, Buharach, when he, he

• 1:22:19Speaker 02

  kind of tells the story to an audience, you know? And he says, oh yeah, they just, you know, bought me a ticket at this foundation. So, you know, again, a little thought in my mind where I'm like, okay, who's? Who's telling the truth, you know?

• 1:22:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:32Speaker 02

  I think it's obvious, but um.

• 1:22:33Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:22:33Speaker 02

  With the nine, I mean, so yeah, it all did come from, from hypnosis. That was the protocol. It was a very, you know, your typical countdown from a certain number. Once you get there, you know, you're in a state where they can come through. And I do think, again, like I mentioned earlier, kind of having to accept some of these darker parts of the story, like I do think, uh, to some extent, like he was implanting this idea. Because you can, you can, I mean, you can hear it. I mean, again, this isn't like speculation, like on the tapes, you can very much hear

• 1:23:15Speaker 02

  him saying, you know, is it, is it the not, you know, the, the type of like leading questions? I think that a lot of people say, oh, you know, you can't trust a hypnosis if they're doing this. And it was, it was, it was that it was very leading questions. And I'm sure it's not the nine and, oh, actually, yeah, you're right, it is. And that kind of thing. But what's so confusing is there's, there's a lot of other sessions he did where it was like, not like that at all, the complete opposite, you know? Not leading at all.

• 1:23:44Jesse Michels?

  And the nine would still come through.

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:46Jesse Michels?

  So that's interesting.

• 1:23:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that always goes back to the crux of, to the heart of like, okay, what, what was he, yes, he believed in this stuff, but yes, he was also involved in.

• 1:23:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  Very, by his own, own admittance, you know, involved in, in MK alter and all these things. So it's like, what?

• 1:24:03Jesse Michels?

  Believer, master manipulator. I mean, I, I usually, clearly he was manipulative somewhat.

• 1:24:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:09Jesse Michels?

  I usually get to the end of these questions, thinking it's like a yes and like an improv or whatever. It's, it's usually not like one neat solution kind of explains everything away.

• 1:24:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:19Jesse Michels?

  You know, one neat solution that would explain everything away would be, you could think of the Archimedes lever of reality itself and its mind control, right? Like that would explain like. Aliens reverse engineer like so many things. Um, but then you you get into like the facts and the facts are just weirder than you think often. And it's it's like, well, I actually think there might be these other beings that come in and certain cases he's not asking leading questions.

• 1:24:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:47Jesse Michels?

  But it's a it's it's fascinating. He also he isolates specific um extra low frequency waves.

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:54Jesse Michels?

  That he thinks are particularly powerful as far as implanting thoughts. Is that right?

• 1:24:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a and again, this was interesting because his research into, you know, E L F extremely low frequency, you know, that was much later, like late seventies, eighties, he was very involved in that. But I figured out like, once again, like this origin point of the Roundtable Foundation, like he was researching this stuff back then, like this very specific extremely low frequency that can he figured out like penetrate the walls of a Faraday cage. That was like the only, uh, you know, frequency that could do that. You know, they went on to use that frequency with like submarine experiments.

• 1:25:40Speaker 02

  So that he believed was like the frequency that could carry, you know, audio information to somebody's head.

• 1:25:51Jesse Michels?

  And he was very concerned that the Soviets had similar capabilities?

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, Project Pandora, which started in, I think, the the sixties, which, you know, going back to Intelletron, that was right around the time this was happening, which was, you know, yeah, the same thing. The Russians had these sort of radio frequency weapons, which which, you know, they did. I mean, that's all proven at that time. I mean, this is like pre Havana syndrome stuff. And so coincidentally, you know, at Intelletron, they're doing a lot of that same stuff. I do firmly believe that that Geller was some sort of guinea pig for these experiments because.

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  It's just too many weird red flags around this time that he meets him. And I think, and again, I could be totally wrong, but I think that there was just this, you know, we need to experiment on a real, you know, human being with some of this stuff. And again, it goes back to this MKUltra, the, you know, LSD, you know, giving LSD to unwitting people. Like at a certain point with these kinds of experiments, you need to, you know, do it on a real person or else you're never going to know how someone in, you know, the real world will react. And I think Geller, you know, was, was part of something like this because there's a lot of experiments they did where there's a story, for instance,

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  where Geller allegedly teleported. So he was walking down the street in New York City, 1973, I think. He claims he's walked down the street in New York City, gets a weird feeling, right? All of a sudden he wakes up and he's in Austin, New York, which is, you know, however, 50 miles or whatever. And, and he crashes through the, the screen porch. There's footage, Super 8 movie footage of, of Puharic filming the screen porch. After this allegedly happened, it's all smashed through, right? And Geller allegedly winds up in Austin, he teleported and from New York City.

• 1:28:02Speaker 02

  And Puharic claims or told Geller, oh yeah, this happened and the nine did this. Basically, you, since you were questioning their ability and their power, they said, well, we're going to do something that will make you, you know, never question us again. And they did this teleportation, right? And the weird thing is, again, like the length Puharic went to, to actually get a, you know, again, people don't remember, this was like seventies, like get a load of film, you know, put it in the, put it in the camera, film, get the, get the film transferred and, and be like, hey, look, I actually filmed when you, right after you flew into the window.

• 1:28:46Speaker 02

  And here it is, it's, it's proof. So, you know, he's, he's, he's doing that, but. I that was just one instance of me thinking like, okay, like this is a way to get somebody to believe that some crazy event like that really happened. And Geller believed it. I mean, he talks about it. He wrote about it. And I think later in his life, he started to question everything. And he even came out with a statement on a radio show in like 2019, saying that Buharic had experimented on him with with mushrooms and had experimented extensively with him with with hypnosis. But again, like that story is crazy.

• 1:29:30Speaker 02

  And he and I think it's like, okay, like if you can get somebody to believe that they had been teleported and I mean, what else could you get someone to believe? And I just think it was all part of that type of experimentation. And Buharic himself, way later in his life, like I said, when he starts to kind of reveal things, he says himself, I was involved in a program. And my boss was the guy who did all research with hypnosis and mind manipulation. So, you know, he was doing it. And I think a lot of the Geller stuff was just like, okay, we need a guinea pig here to to see if some of these wild ideas work, you know?

• 1:30:10Jesse Michels?

  So wild. I think there's a story too that Geller tells around him meeting Werner von Braun and Werner von Braun taking him to a safe that contained some UFO artifacts, maybe from Roswell?

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, Werner von Braun, again, was somebody close to Buharic in the 60s specifically.

• 1:30:31Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:30:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, his assistant, the same one I told you about, who made the JFK comment, said, yeah, he talked to him, you know, all the time.

• 1:30:40Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:30:40Speaker 02

  So that was yet another person who was just kind of part of his, you know, Rolodex. But yeah, I think Geller said something effective. Yeah, he showed him some photographs of.

• 1:30:52Speaker 02

  Of yeah, something from Roswell or revealed facts to him.

• 1:30:56Jesse Michels?

  And I think he showed him material and I think he felt like he had a telepathic connection with the material.

• 1:31:00Speaker 10

  Werner von Braun takes me into his personal office. There is a safe in the office. He opens the safe. I see a piece of metal. I've never seen such a color. Pulls it out. It's not heavy. Says, Ori, touch this. Tell me what you feel now. I put my hand on it and I say, Werner, this is not from here. He says, you're right. This is a piece of a UFO that crashed on our planet.

• 1:31:23Jesse Michels?

  Did, uh, it's like he, he knew that it was not from here or something like he showed it to him and he goes, it's not from here. And he goes, how did you know something, you know, something? It's so interesting.

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  The other thing too, and this goes back to the, the controller's, um, book. A lot of the stories, and again, keep in mind, this is all pre coming to the U S, going to S R I. Everyone knows that stuff. This is in, in Tel Aviv before any of that. And he, another story like this teleportation one, they're in, um, the Sinai desert. They're driving around in, uh, in a Jeep and they're, they see a UFO. And Geller, all of a sudden, I mean, Puhar's book on Geller is fun to read. You know, in and of itself is because it's like, it's just like a cool, crazy sci-fi book, if anything.

• 1:32:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:17Speaker 02

  Even though it's supposed to be, you know, nonfiction, but he claims that this UFO lands, Geller goes into like a trance, boards the, the UFO. Comes back with like a pen and said, or something like a pen and basically said, you know, oh, they, these, these beings told me to keep this because this will forever be proof that I, I, uh, you know, went on this craft. But the same thing, it's always like, oh, he's in a trance before this happens, you know, apparently. And then it's that same idea of like, he believed it. And Puharich kind of substantiated, oh yeah, you know, we saw it land and we saw you walk on it. And

• 1:32:56Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:32:57Speaker 02

  But then it always goes to that question like, why? Again, you could just say, oh, well, they wanted to experiment with. Can you get someone to believe in? And we're just kind of framing it around this ET UFO thing. But it's always like, why? Why do this? You know, why, why was he doing this?

• 1:33:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:15Speaker 02

  You know, I don't, because again, there's no concrete proof. Oh. Geller was a guinea pig. He was, he was a subject like, I'm just kind of putting the pieces together, but it just seems to me that it's like, let's take this UFO ET framework. And do these kind of mind manipulation experiments around that.

• 1:33:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:36Speaker 02

  And see, you know, see what, what people can believe and.

• 1:33:41Jesse Michels?

  You also get in a weird territory where it's like. It does, again, the MKUltra thing just explain everything, which is like such a dark version of the truth, but it's possible. We have to entertain that.

• 1:33:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:53Jesse Michels?

  Or is MKUltra actually converging on a technique that the, you know, extraterrestrials or NHI, non-human intelligence already has mastery over vis a vis its ability to like manipulate human beings. Like, I think of one of the most credible cases for me is a guy named Mario Woods. Who is at Ellsworth Air Force Base in 1977 in South Dakota. And he was a missile security officer. And he's just like a really upright, great guy. And he thought, you know, like this sort of like B two bomber was like, kind of winking at him. And in the distance, he and his, you know, teammate or whatever, his colleague, Michael Johnson,

• 1:34:37Jesse Michels?

  go in this little Jeep and they follow it. They, they get there and it's this like huge like plasma orb. That's glowing. It's red hot and it, it's the size of a Walmart is the, the line he always says. It's sort of this crazy iconic line, you know, and, and he ends up nine, being transported nine miles. Away from the base, like behind a dam. And it's like, it's the next morning. He has no idea what happened. And all, all he I think had remembered was beings walking toward him, saying, do not fear, do not fear. And then he gets a hypnotic regression and he realizes that, you know, possibly he boarded a craft.

• 1:35:19Jesse Michels?

  And what's really interesting is he says that after, when he gets sort of, you know, debriefed, they check his teeth. I think he said that like, the guy checking him now said that there was some sort of ambient radiation in his mouth or something from that time. It's really sort of crazy.

• 1:35:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is, the tooth thing is really strange and there's a lot online about, there's a story about a, an individual who changed his name, in fact, because he didn't want to be associated with this, but this was, um, so, so post Geller, right? So, so Geller, uh, Lee, basically they, they kind of split up. Geller wants to, to move on. And again, way later in this 2019 interview, he, he kind of opens up and said, yeah, I was kind of like afraid, you know, and he, he really opens up like, I didn't know what was kind of going on and, and I was suspicious and I just wanted to get away basically from

• 1:36:20Speaker 02

  this guy. And so he, you know, but he was famous at that time anyways. So he leaves, Puharich is, you know, trying to find another subject to bring through the nine, he, he claims. So this is even pre Phyllis Schlemmer is right around, because Phyllis Schlemmer was sort of the next channel that he, he discovers that, that brings through the nine. But before Phyllis, there was this guy in Florida where Phyllis was from, she knew this guy. He was part of a psychic class that she, she taught. And again, I've heard from a lot of people that this woman Phyllis was like a legit psychic, you know, knowing things about people and so forth. But there's this guy that she knew, she introduces him

• 1:37:04Speaker 02

  to Puharich, uh, they do a bunch of experiments. Yeah. Sure enough, he puts, he hypnotizes him and he is communicating with not the nine, but it was some other being. Can't remember the name. But anyways, this guy says, you know, I got really, really weird vibes, you know, et cetera. But lo and behold, he wakes up one day and realizes he has a metal filling that he never had. And he goes to the dentist.

• 1:37:37Speaker 02

  And says, you know, what's going on here? I didn't get this done. And they looked and said, yeah, this was done. You know, professionally, there's no question about it. And, oh, complete side note, the guy that Puharich ran into Electron with was a dentist. What? That he met in the army. So this guy discovers a a feeling he never had. He completely freaks out and leaves the the group that is Puharich Phyllis. And and it's sad. And again, this always comes back to this, like, not avoiding the the negative stuff like, apparently, the guy went like, you know, crazy. He just had like a mental breakdown. There's a couple of other people in the

• 1:38:22Speaker 02

  the sphere of this story that this happened to. But that's like a real story. And the guy, you know, and he brought it up to Puharich and they said, oh, you know, we don't know what you're talking about. We this we weren't involved with this. Or I think, you know, actually, I think what they said was, oh, you know, this was done by the beings your talk, they wanted this to happen and they they did this somehow. And and so it's very bizarre. You know? But that goes back to the, I mean, what you just told me is crazy, because this was early 70s. So there might be something going on with this. This two thing. And, you know, again, I think the film does a good job of this. Or I hope it does is, is, you know, I don't

• 1:39:06Speaker 02

  believe or in especially don't want to believe that MK Ultra is responsible for everything and all of this stuff. Because there's a couple of stories in Puharich's life that, you know, do seem like legitimate sort of extraordinary encounters. For instance, in the late 80s, Puharich lived in North Carolina. And he, there was a story that a bunch of his family was visiting. A bunch of his cousins and people who, you know, are very skeptical about all of this stuff, skeptical of Puharich's whole world, but some psychic that that night.

• 1:39:44Speaker 02

  Or that day said later tonight, you know, I just got a message that like a UFO is going to show itself over the house. And so we have the video, Puharch's son Andy is an awesome guy. He, he did this kind of like funny video where he interviewed like all the people who were there at the, at this family gathering and say, you know, what do you think's going to happen? Do you think it's going to show up? And everyone said, oh, yes or no. But that night, um, multiple people saw this huge UFO and Andy tells the story and he like, he gets emotional telling it. And he's a come again, a totally sane guy, you know, of course, his dad was Andre Puharch, but like he's, he's very normal saying, and he

• 1:40:27Speaker 02

  said, yeah, of course, you know, the camera wasn't out because it was much later in the night. And again, pre iPhone, of course, you know, you got to run in and grab this bulky VHS camcorder. But apparently like him, that Puharch's son and two or three of the cousins all saw this huge thing is silently hovered over.

• 1:40:47Jesse Michels?

  So wild.

• 1:40:48Speaker 02

  And that and, and his son, again, very emotionally says like, that was the moment I said, okay, like I, I believe in, in this stuff. And, and I believe in, in, in things my dad did. And he just had a very emotional reaction to that moment. So it's stories like that where I go, okay, well, you know, Puharch is in running some MKUltra experiment on his family, you know, decades after all this stuff. So, so yeah, I don't want to put this idea out there that, you know, I, I think that way. I mean, again, it's just, there's too many red flags in his story that

• 1:41:25Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:41:26Speaker 02

  Point to his involvement. But then there's that story where even his cousin who didn't want to be interviewed or whatever, but I did talk to him and he was like, yeah, that happened, you know?

• 1:41:35Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think there's something, it's like, everybody sees the world through a perceptual prism or container. And I'm sure with his hypnotic techniques and with MKUltra and with implants and all these things, you can break that container and then probably intentionally shade or manipulate what people experience.

• 1:41:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:56Jesse Michels?

  But the idea that there's nothing outside of that perceptual prism. That involves other entities between man and God, or you know, whatever your metaphysical beliefs are. I think also involves some sort of hubris, like, you know, you can, you can have both. But um, it's, this is, I mean, this is one of the craziest interviews I've ever done, man. This is crazy. I mean, I'm, I feel like shocked, like, listening to all of these. And I'm just thinking, as you're talking about Pujar's son and this UFO showing up.

• 1:42:27Jesse Michels?

  What was, because I think of 1952 as the, you know, DC flyover, Washington invasion, like, maybe the most intense UFO showing in United States history, as far as mass media covering it. People seeing things, you know, I actually recently met a witness from 1952 and, and, and he was pretty amazing. And he remembers it and stuff. He's one of the probably last living witnesses.

• 1:42:53Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 1:42:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. But do you think that had anything to do with the seance? Because I think of the seance with, you know, the original channeling of the nine.

• 1:43:00Speaker 02

  It was 52.

• 1:43:02Jesse Michels?

  Do you know what month?

• 1:43:03Speaker 02

  It was, it was um, New Year's Eve.

• 1:43:10Jesse Michels?

  Okay. Well, I mean, it was before then, because the, so the, again, I don't want to engage in any sort of, you know, selection bias here, but the July 1952 was when

• 1:43:21Speaker 02

  It was.

• 1:43:21Jesse Michels?

  The thing showed up and so.

• 1:43:23Speaker 02

  But a lot of that early channeling with Vana, that was all, you know, 52.

• 1:43:28Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:43:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, into 53. I mean, it could have been, and I told you, like, he, he wrote in his journals about these orbs. And one of the psychics would say, you know, go outside tonight, you're going to see an orb, so you know.

• 1:43:40Jesse Michels?

  Well, every, every time I want to get away from like the occult having to do with UFOs. It's like, it's just so obviously does have everything to do. And there's, there's even a group called the Borderlands Society, which was.

• 1:43:52Speaker 02

  Borderland, well, which one?

• 1:43:54Jesse Michels?

  Borderlands Research.

• 1:43:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, Pujar's was very involved in that. In fact, a lot of the recordings we have, not a lot, but some of them came from, from them. They were really, they were, they had a bunch of stuff saved, actually.

• 1:44:06Jesse Michels?

  So there's a really amazing, like, kind of nuts and bolts UFO researcher, who I think did some software stuff for SpaceX. His name is Richard Geldrick. And he, he has uncovered like a couple of UFO, either crashes or appearances where the Borderlands Society knew about. These UFO appearances before the military did, before the army, before the air force. So, and then you have, you know, this 1933 Magenta crash, which it seems like is getting increasingly corroborated. David Grush, Harold Malmgren, both talk about it. And Hugh Angleton and James Jesus Angleton were there and, you know, maybe there's some occult stuff going on there.

• 1:44:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:47Jesse Michels?

  With the Knights of Malta, right? You know, who knows?

• 1:44:50Speaker 02

  But you know, Puharj was a master mason.

• 1:44:52Jesse Michels?

  He was.

• 1:44:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:53Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:44:54Speaker 02

  And he tells a story in a lecture much later in his life about how he was always approached by these, you know, what he would call kind of dark occult groups and societies and people trying to like get him to

• 1:45:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  join and he, he didn't want anything to do with it and that kind of thing.

• 1:45:17Jesse Michels?

  Well, Werner von Braun was also, I believe, a Freemason and he had gone through all these weird neo pagan rituals as part of the German space program. He was also close with Walt Disney and I think they made a little movie together and there's some Freemasonic symbolism there. There's Launchpad 33 in real life that he sort of created. And then my buddy Danny Jones just did an interview with one of the last living Apollo astronauts, Charlie Duke, and the number one moon landing hoaxer person, Bart Sabrell. And Danny on the phone with me is like, dude, I'm not sure that the early astronauts weren't MKUltra. And it's weird, you know, and it's like you have, you know, a picture of Jolly West on the set of 2001 Space Odyssey.

• 1:46:02Jesse Michels?

  You have, you know.

• 1:46:03Speaker 02

  There is?

• 1:46:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:04Speaker 02

  I think I did hear about that.

• 1:46:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah. And so.

• 1:46:08Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 1:46:09Jesse Michels?

  It is insane. It is insane. And, and then you have these, you know, it's like Neil Armstrong looking like, you know, he's in a hostage video. Joe Rogan describes it like that, you know, after he comes back from the moon. And so you have to wonder if there's some sort of like weird, you know, and if Puharj, I didn't know Puharj, I knew Werner von Braun.

• 1:46:33Jesse Michels?

  One of the MKUltra architects.

• 1:46:35Speaker 02

  In touch with the head of the American space part. It's weird.

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• 1:47:08Speaker 02

  Well, the other thing too with the NASA connection with Puharich is again, in the 60s, he was doing like a ton of like contract work for all sorts of different agencies. But so this is actually in newspaper articles we found, but they were doing like telepathy experiments with astronauts. And Puharich claims this, I've never heard it. We don't have the tape, but he claims that they, before they went to the moon, right? They didn't know the surface of the moon, what it would, would be like, really? So they were saying, okay, how can we land a craft? What we don't, could it be hot? Is it gonna, is it cold? Is it a, is it a spike? Whatever?

• 1:47:52Speaker 02

  So he, he claims that they sent remote viewers to the moon to get a picture of like what it would be like. So they would feel comfortable with like sending whatever, you know, if they went to, to, to send stuff there. And he says, yeah, you know, somewhere in the NASA archives, I'm sure there's the tapes we did where we recorded this psychic kind of remote viewing the moon and, and he, and he had the contracts from NASA like, we don't, we have one that doesn't say that, but he clearly, you know, worked with them. We have, we have documentation of that. Didn't NASA also have a camp around with space children or whatever? Psychic? Yeah, I've heard a lot about that, but I don't.

• 1:48:38Speaker 02

  I don't know much about that. I mean, I know about, obviously, Puharich is, we can get into that. But yeah, I've heard a lot about that, that there in the late 60s, there was some somewhere in Florida, there was like a NASA thing with kids. I honestly, I don't know.

• 1:48:52Jesse Michels?

  I think Gordon Cooper might talk about.

• 1:48:54Speaker 02

  Oh dude, Gordon Cooper was very involved with Puharich.

• 1:48:59Jesse Michels?

  So this is one of the, this is the guy who spent longer in the Earth's orbit, you know, in space than anyone prior to him, in the late 50s.

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. He went to Austin, like many times. And in his book, he writes about going there, seeing experiments with the Faraday cage, seeing the space kids. Yeah.

• 1:49:22Jesse Michels?

  Why was he so interested? I mean, why was a NASA astronaut interested in psychic research?

• 1:49:29Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, well, I think Coop, Gordon Cooper, I mean, didn't he have some UFO stories or experiences, or at least he was open to talking about that stuff?

• 1:49:41Speaker 11

  We had some, some kind of craft flying overhead, had preget all the Ted, flying the same kind of formation we fly in our fighter.

• 1:49:51Speaker 02

  Were they planes? I mean, what?

• 1:49:53Speaker 11

  Well, it turns out they didn't have wings. They were saucer shape. And we never could get as high or as fast as they were. So to really positively identify them, but they were metallic looking and saucer in shape.

• 1:50:07Speaker 02

  So he was definitely like in interested in this stuff. And, and yeah, so he went up there. Everyone went up there. I mean, the whole Gene Roddenberry thing is crazy.

• 1:50:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. The creator of Star Trek.

• 1:50:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so that's like something I read about. And, you know, I thought, oh, that's interesting. But in Puharich's archive, sure enough, is the tape that no one's ever heard of this session that is kind of like crazy to, to, to be in possession of. But basically, they would do these kind of round table-esque channelings where like back then, these prominent people at the time were now in mid 70s, would come there, spend time there, and they would do these sessions. And Gene Roddenberry went up a lot. And he makes mention on this one tape recording that like, You know, he says like, like I've said many times in the past, which would indicate that

• 1:51:02Speaker 02

  this wasn't the first time he was a part of like a channeling session with them. But yeah, we have the tape where it was Roddenberry, Puharich and Phyllis Schlemmer was the channel, the channeler. And you know, he, he does his thing. He hypnotically regresses her.

• 1:51:20Speaker 02

  She goes into a trance. He starts channeling the nine and Roddenberry is there. And it's like an hour or two hours of him asking questions about.

• 1:51:29Jesse Michels?

  And that becomes the plot of Star Trek?

• 1:51:32Speaker 02

  Well, I wouldn't say the plot of Star Trek had started. I think it would, I think people think of Deep Space Nine, which that came out post these sessions. And that, you know, of course nine, and then there's a character in Deep Space Nine who's called Vinod, just like the early nine channeler. So there's no question like that. That's connected. And they actually wrote, I have it and I don't know what will ever come of it. It's a, it's a long story, but Gene Roddenberry wrote a script called The Nine. And it's all about his, he changed the names and locations and the whole premise is his experience of working with Puharich and Phyllis channeling the nine.

• 1:52:18Speaker 02

  And we have an original copy of it and it's like amazing. And from what we understand, like Roddenberry at the time was going through a lot with like, I guess he was like drinking a lot and I don't know all the specifics, but it just like it, you know, as, as stuff in the, in the movie industry does, it fell apart or whatever. And, and it never happened, but he was moved enough to write a whole, you know, 130 page script about. About his experience and it's called the nine.

• 1:52:52Jesse Michels?

  So trippy.

• 1:52:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:54Jesse Michels?

  And you have.

• 1:52:55Speaker 02

  So we should make it maybe.

• 1:52:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, there you go. Yeah. You have a hit Greg up if you're interested.

• 1:53:02Jesse Michels?

  I mean, you also, you know, think about the Star Trek you did with the, you know, the Galactic Federation.

• 1:53:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:08Jesse Michels?

  That's mentioned in a couple of real world contexts too. One of which being you have Haime Shed, who, you know, has won multiple, the highest, you know, national security awards in Israel is basically the founder of their space program and their, their equivalent of Space Force and was, I think, head of it for decades.

• 1:53:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:31Jesse Michels?

  And he just writes this autobiography where he talks about the Galactic Federation.

• 1:53:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:37Jesse Michels?

  And so do you think there's something like more real going on that in, in that like the heads of various nation state space programs are aware of here?

• 1:53:47Speaker 02

  Perhaps.

• 1:53:49Jesse Michels?

  Does he mention anything about the nine too, or?

• 1:53:52Speaker 02

  Who?

• 1:53:52Jesse Michels?

  Ashed?

• 1:53:53Speaker 02

  No, I know.

• 1:53:54Jesse Michels?

  Maybe he, okay.

• 1:53:54Speaker 02

  Not specifically.

• 1:53:56Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:53:57Speaker 02

  But the other weird connection to Israel, Puharic and everything was he was close with Itzak Bentoff.

• 1:54:05Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:54:06Speaker 02

  Who's, you know, a really interesting guy. There's some videos on YouTube of him. He's kind of like the Israeli Puharic. He, he kind of looks like him and, you know, they have the same vibe going on. But they were, they were good friends. I don't know the specifics of how they met. Apparently Bentoff was, you know, instrumental in hooking up Puharic with Geller. I don't know the truth to that, but, um, well, they definitely knew each other because there's photographs of Geller, Puharic and Bentoff in an apartment in Tel Aviv together, but.

• 1:54:42Speaker 02

  You know, Bentoff is interesting because he worked for Israeli intelligence. I mean, that's, that's a fact. And they, and Puharach was again, like I said, going to Israel a lot at that time. And he was always tape recording their conversations, like him and Bentoff would sit around like you and I are right now. And they would record all their conversations, which, you know, is not weird necessarily, but also, you know, why would you do that and then save the cassette tapes decades later? So, you know, there's a lot of clues like that, that goes back to that Israeli connection.

• 1:55:18Speaker 02

  And, and Bentoff was one of a number of scientists who were being tracked at, you know, Puharach's house burned, burned in 1978. To this day, no one really knows who did it, but it was a proven, you know, arson job by the, the fire department. And Bentoff around that time was also being monitored. Puharach was being monitored. There's this big, like this circle of kind of his friends and colleagues were all claiming to be, to be monitored, be followed, harassed and so forth.

• 1:56:00Speaker 02

  And there was some story connecting a possible Israeli connection to this 1978 fire. But yeah, that's a big, big question mark. I mean,

• 1:56:15Jesse Michels?

  And Bentoff died in a plane crash.

• 1:56:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:56:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Sort of super mysteriously. He was friends with a lot of the Stanford Research Institute and early psychic, you know, research pioneers.

• 1:56:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:27Jesse Michels?

  And claimed to have this kind of theory of everything. He writes a book called Stalking the Wild Pendulum, where individual consciousness is kind of a pinched node of some larger fabric of consciousness or something. And fascinating guy.

• 1:56:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were close. Like I said, there's a couple of tapes of them just like literally talking and they would just record it. And they would talk about all sorts of things, mostly, you know. Their their shared interest and consciousness and stuff. But you know, then there's this other theory that Puharich could have not been a double agent and and and simply just a spy

• 1:57:02Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:57:02Speaker 02

  and going to kind of pick off information or hey, we're we're buddies, we're into the same stuff. We should tape record our conversation.

• 1:57:11Jesse Michels?

  Like he was CIA and Ben Dar was Mossad or something.

• 1:57:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:15Speaker 02

  But all I know is that stuff exists and you can put it together how how you want. But, you know, I've told a lot of people, and again, it's not because I sort of fear for, you know, anything, but we really done, maybe it's deliberate, maybe we're not supposed to have found anything, but we don't have any sort of like legitimate document or anything that really nail. And I think that's what's interesting about the film and the story in general is like, you still question, there's still research to be done into this because we don't have the definitive answer of what's going on. We just have all this, all these strange breadcrumbs over several decades that would point to.

• 1:57:59Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think the most interesting, you know, pieces of media or journalism beget more questions often than answers, especially if you're cutting to, you know, the deeper architectures of reality.

• 1:58:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:11Jesse Michels?

  And I often think you should be kind of skeptical or distrust, you know, people who are like, they're so sure it's just X or it's just Y, you know, and in this case, it's clearly this kind of murky subject. But that, I mean, that makes it, that makes it so fascinating, right? It makes you just want to go go deeper and.

• 1:58:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:31Speaker 02

  I think that the sign too of the whole Geller thing being, like I mentioned earlier, like him being involved, maybe willingly in these kinds of experiments, you know, but.

• 1:58:43Speaker 02

  He, he, um, yeah, he, he really opened up. I mean, anyone can hear it. Uh, I don't, uh, maybe it's been taken down, but it was this radio interview from 2019 and he, he was very open about, you know, I was, I was scared. Um, and he always uses the term like Buhar made me believe this. He made, you know, and then he, and he does credit Buhar says, look, you know, I'm, I, I, I love the guy. He helped me. He helped me get to the, to America. Um, so it's not like he's, he hates him or he speak, but he, he's very clear. Like, you know, at that period, like I was, I was, uh, concerned about what was going on. He mentions being pretty sure that, uh, Buhar had slipped him mushrooms. So, you know,

• 1:59:30Speaker 02

  there's that. I mean, I'm, I don't think he's, he's making that up.

• 1:59:34Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:59:34Speaker 02

  I think it was like, all these years later, I think he wanted to come clean or

• 1:59:40Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:59:41Speaker 02

  about, about like what he really experiences, the vibe that I got from.

• 1:59:45Jesse Michels?

  He's a wild character. He has a very flamboyant online personality. He'll often make these videos directed at world leaders. So like, Trump, don't push that button or Putin, stand down or whatever, you know, I know what's going to happen. And he'll like predict the wild things happening and, um,

• 2:00:04Speaker 02

  Well, he was doing that in the seventies.

• 2:00:06Jesse Michels?

  He was.

• 2:00:07Speaker 02

  Like, like again, these, this, this idea that you could use this directed thought to, to change somebody's uh, uh, opinion or to change somebody's, uh, direction or, and then he talks a lot about doing that back then.

• 2:00:25Jesse Michels?

  I have a friend who worked at the Princeton parapsychology lab. And whenever I try to throw the kitchen sink of skepticism around, like he's just a stage magician and he's, you know, and I don't, I don't know how legit he is. He often said, you know, and I think they're, they even have like a, uh, some papers where they studied him at Princeton and I think it's often again, like these people have something that's a little anomalous going on and they play it up, you know?

• 2:00:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, that's really actually my, again, with everything I said prior to him potentially being the sort of subject, but no, I, I actually firmly believe that he was one of probably, you know, a lot of people out there, yeah, who have something. And again, it's just like, can you turn it on every time? Can you, can you perform at every instant someone asks you? I mean, no, you I'm not a, I mean, I don't, I don't know, but I would assume like you can't do it a hundred percent of the time. Maybe you can do it 60% of the time.

• 2:01:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:21Speaker 02

  But I think that about him because I've heard enough stories through all these people I've talked to and stuff who were like, yeah, he, he had something, you know? I think he liked the idea of the, the showmanship and, but yeah, he definitely had something going on.

• 2:01:36Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of people with gifted, you know, psychic abilities. Who are the space kids?

• 2:01:43Speaker 02

  The space kids are, uh, well, there's a lot of them and we only were able to track down and interview, um, one, two, three, five of them. But basically when Geller was kind of blowing up, this was like mid seventies, early mid seventies. Apparently the story goes that these kids all over the world, um, specifically in the United States and the UK and in, and in China, which are just the, the, the stories that we were able to kind of look into. But these kids would see, um, Geller on TV and all of a sudden

• 2:02:25Speaker 02

  like that would, uh, cause them to just spontaneously like do something psychic, like they would, they would pick up a spoon and it would bend. Or they would, you know, go into the room and the, the, the drawers would, oh yeah, poltergeist to the stuff, right? And there's a ton of newspaper articles at this time, which again, like, okay, it could have all been a hoax, whatever. But you know, it's like parents calling in, uh, the TV station, you know, Puharich claims like saying, what the hell is going on here? You know, my kid just did this. My kid just bent a spoon. My kid just, you know, touched the, the, the refrigerator and it short circuited, you know, all sorts of stuff. And apparently it was because they

• 2:03:10Speaker 02

  saw him on TV and, and something happened, something clicked and they, their psychic abilities just kind of like came out in that moment.

• 2:03:19Jesse Michels?

  It's like a contagion of

• 2:03:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:21Jesse Michels?

  psychic

• 2:03:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:22Jesse Michels?

  powers.

• 2:03:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that's apparently what was happening. And so Puharich, of course, you know, learns this and he's very intrigued. So he starts to, you know, visit some of these cases of kids who were doing this. And, um, eventually I guess is so. Eventually, he's so convinced that that this is real and that these kids actually have this sort of like sudden emergence of ability that he brings them. Well, again, a lot of people have this idea. There's a lot online about how he like collected all these kids, almost like X-Men kind of thing, which is partially true, but mostly like he would lecture and, you know,

• 2:04:07Speaker 02

  all over the country in Canada and places and people in, and we say kids, we're talking like teen, you know, early. Apparently, there were like some very young, you know, five, four, five, six-year-old kids, but the ones that we're dealing with in the film are all, you know, in their early twenties, maybe 18, youngest. But they would see him at a lecture and they would, they would approach him and say, hey, you know, we could talk like I have, I have these abilities and you are obviously the guy who knows about this and I need your help. Basically, like they would kind of go to him. So at that point, he thought, okay, there's enough, there's

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  enough stories and enough of these kids coming to me that like I should start a research program. And so that's when he sort of collects like a large group of kids. I think it was like, again, online, there's all sorts of stories, but it was really only like, maybe like a dozen kids, I think, give or take, but he kind of invites them to Austin where he's, you know, living and, and starts this sort of camp where basically they are just doing psychic research on these kids. And I think, again, not unlike the earlier Vennard Roundtable

• 2:05:33Speaker 02

  stuff, like a lot of conspiracy stuff pops up at this moment, too, because of the general nature of kids showing up at the house of a, you know, known intelligence, connected scientist, et cetera, and so forth. But basically, he collected them and just started this camp where they did. You know, kinda went through the different abilities, tested them, and that all led to getting back to the nine, because a lot of these kids claimed they had some sort of encounter or, or you know, UFO experience. And so Puharic said, okay, kinda like grouped

• 2:06:15Speaker 02

  them, okay, all the, all the kids who've had an experience here, you know, not, and so all the kids that had an experience, he would hypnotize them. And allegedly, the nine would come through, even through these kids, who most of which never knew about, about the nine, and, and most of which were kids who like, you, you hear a lot with these experiencers who like, they didn't want to talk about it, you know, they didn't want, you know, fame, or they, they were just like, I'm actually scared and I want to know what's going on with myself, you know, they weren't trying to like, you know, do anything more than like, can you help me figure out what's going on?

• 2:06:54Jesse Michels?

  After, after you've looked at this for 10 plus years, do you think that the nine coming through these different experiencers, abductees, people who've seen UFOs, represent something real, that's sort of, you know, non-human or extraterrestrial coming through these people? Or do you think that these were sort of synthetically implanted or kinda manipulated by Puharic?

• 2:07:24Speaker 02

  Uh, I think it's, I don't want to say synthetically created. I think what was going on at this time, and this is, um, we're talking 74, when this started, 73, 74. And keep in mind, this is right around the time the SRI remote viewing stuff starts.

• 2:07:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:46Speaker 02

  And keep in mind how Puthoff tells us that he went to Puharic's house in Osening, heard all about the nine, and that Puharic was apparently communicating with this thing called the nine.

• 2:07:59Jesse Michels?

  Wild.

• 2:08:00Speaker 02

  And then didn't really say much.

• 2:08:02Jesse Michels?

  Has Hal Puthoff never talked about this?

• 2:08:03Speaker 02

  No, I mean, in the film he does.

• 2:08:05Jesse Michels?

  I gotta ask.

• 2:08:06Speaker 02

  But, um, he basically just tells a story about.

• 2:08:11Speaker 02

  Well, quite frankly, he was quite closed off when it came to the the subject of all this Puharich. So I don't know. I wasn't there at the interview. Someone else did it. I mean, he it was great. He did it. But he basically was like Puharich was more connected than anyone anyone ever knew. And really, he sort of alludes to that. But he does say, yeah, we we went up to his house. There's footage of him and and Targ at Austin sitting on the front steps. So my theory is that and people have talked about this and it's out there. But I think that there is this sort of and and we know for a fact that Puharich was part of the SRI program. A lot of people put off himself, say, no, he wasn't. He

• 2:08:53Speaker 02

  just simply Brock Geller and that was it. He disappeared. Not true. There's a pay stub in Puharich's archives that is a is from SRI to Lab 9, Puharich's lab from 73. Whoa. We brought it up to put off. He said, oh, I don't who knows. It could have just it's whatever. It's nothing, basically. But to me, that that proves he was connected. Because I think the story most people read is just like, he brought Geller, dropped him off there and was just like, you know, have fun, basically. But I think that Puharich's house, which was now called Lab 9, which, again, like Intellektron, and a couple others

• 2:09:35Speaker 02

  he had, which are no use getting into, but he just had these sort of like, front companies, which I just think it's obvious, you know. So he had this time, he had Lab 9. And I think that Lab 9 was doing SRI research, you know, on on children. Because essentially, a lot of the tapes are are remote viewing. There's no other way to look at it. It's, okay, what's going on in this location? What time is this such and such general going to be at this place? When should we go here? And it was actually

• 2:10:14Speaker 02

  Speaking of Adam Curry, I think it was actually Adam who brought up this idea that, you know, a lot of people who go into a trance or hypnosis, you know, there's, there's a protocol, right? It's either like a pendulum or whatever it is, a countdown. And I think the nine and something, somehow like this, we're going to connect with the nine thing was like a way that these, it was an in, if that makes sense, for some of these kids to, to sort of want to participate because again, it goes back to if you really want

• 2:10:55Speaker 02

  to test like a kid's, a real, you know, 20 year old person is a 20 year old, a better psychic than an 80 year old, you know, eventually you're going to have to find a 20 year old and then do an experiment with them. And I think what was happening was like, if you go to a 20 year old and say, hey, you know, especially at the time with Uri Geller being famous, you know, whatever, Star Wars, this and that, and you say, hey, you know, do you want to be a part of an experiment where you can communicate with these, you know, these beings and, you know, I can put you in it's safe and I can put you in this, this hypnotic state and you'll communicate with them, like obviously you would say, oh, that's, okay, that's, that's

• 2:11:40Speaker 02

  interesting, that's cool. You're not going to say, hey, do you want to come be a part of a covert, you know, mind control experience, you're not going to approach it that way. So that's my theory is that that was sort of his way. And one of the space kids whose name I don't, I won't mention, she, she basically admitted that where she said something to the effect a long time ago of like the nine was basically just like this sandbox for us to, or some analogy like that where the nine is basically just like. This sandbox for us to play in or something. And again, it was off. It wasn't in the interview. It was like one of this many phone calls we had and I always stuck with me.

• 2:12:20Speaker 02

  So I think that at that time, again, you've got same years, remote viewing experiments are starting at SRI. You've got the connection to SRI via some sort of pay stub going directly to lab nine. And you've got all these young kids who on the tapes are doing remote viewing. So.

• 2:12:41Jesse Michels?

  But the question, I want to push you on this is like, remote viewing is used for the US from 72 to 95 and probably now.

• 2:12:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:51Jesse Michels?

  To like actually add to our intelligence abilities about real things, drop Russian nuclear bases, find hostages, you know, whatever. Do you think that this council of nine were real, you know, extraterrestrial or non-human beings communicating through these space kids? Or do you think the nine was being implanted and they were testing their ability to sort of manipulate thoughts? And that was through the nine or whatever. And they had some, some, you know, I mean, clearly they did have some abilities to do that.

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• 2:13:53Speaker 02

  The, the, the, the evidence would point to the latter. I mean, that's, that's the best way I can answer that.

• 2:14:01Jesse Michels?

  God, that's crazy. That's a.

• 2:14:03Speaker 02

  And that would go back.

• 2:14:04Jesse Michels?

  It's very deflating, I'm sure for a lot of the UFO.

• 2:14:07Speaker 02

  Well, it is. And again, like, I don't want to come across as this like negative skeptic person, as I'm not. But again, it goes back to like, if you're trying to be serious and piece together the life of this guy that spans decades, like, and then that's what you're hearing.

• 2:14:26Speaker 02

  You know, that's what you, that's what you have.

• 2:14:28Jesse Michels?

  But what is, if you are saying some of the protocol to get people into this state involves uh saying, hey, you're, you're contacting the nine and whatever, it's some protocol and it sounds like a hypnotic technique.

• 2:14:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:41Jesse Michels?

  But then some seem super open-ended and they just seem to connect with the nine. How do you sort of make sense of that?

• 2:14:47Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know, and that goes back to the kind of, you know, I think Jeffrey Mishlove brings this up of this sort of trickster element, the kind of paranormal phenomena where like sometimes they're, they're tricking you and sometimes it's real, sometimes it isn't. I think there is, you know, with Buhar, like again, it's always that question of like, where did he stand with like, is this real research that he passionately believes in? And he's trying to come to some sort of, you know, reality of, of the ET phenomenon? Or was it just all MKUltra, you know?

• 2:15:29Speaker 02

  And again, I don't think it was all MKUltra mind control stuff, but there's some gray area there that is so hard to pin down because again, in some of these sessions, and, and this is strange is, is that on some of the sessions, you know, he'll be like, okay, here we are with this space kid and then there, and their mom is here and she's, you know, this is like the tape recorder we're hearing and, and on those sessions, it's like, you know, typical, okay, the nine, um, the, you know, the world is beautiful. We need to save humanity, et cetera, et cetera. Then there's other tapes that are like, you know, what time is the best to, to remote

• 2:16:13Speaker 02

  view the Kremlin so we can get in from it, you know?

• 2:16:17Jesse Michels?

  Oh.

• 2:16:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think it's, there was a way of like, okay, I need to kind of. You know, give an example to, to maybe other people around to say, hey, look, this is what we're doing. Okay. See, you sat in on a session. So now you know what it's like. And then when those people aren't around, it kind of gets to the, the serious stuff. Is again, what it, this is what I'm, you're hearing, what I'm hearing, it's all based off that. It's not like really my personal, um, you know, hardcore beliefs. It's just like, oh, okay, this is what I'm hearing. I think anyone would kind of conclude that. Yeah. But again, I think Puharich like, and, and this is a big part of the film and a big

• 2:17:03Speaker 02

  part of my philosophy about him and his story is like, I think he believed, I know he believed in, in a lot of paranormal stuff, but I think he got sort of under the thumb of the, uh, you know, intelligence world early on. And I just don't think that he could kind of get away from that. And I think, you know, you often hear it's like the mafia, like you don't just leave. And when you're, when you're that involved as he was, you know, to say, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm good, you know? And I, so I think that there was a lot of pressure on him to do some of this

• 2:17:45Speaker 02

  negative stuff that he may have otherwise not wanted to do. And I think that's like a big part of the film and what I wanted to kind of get across with it is there's so much negative conspiracy stuff about him out there. I mean, there's tons of it. Have you ever read the Stargate conspiracy, the book? It's really good. It's, um, it came out in the nineties and it was the first book that really talked about a lot. Like this, this book had the story that I told you about of the guy in Florida who woke up with the, the tooth implant. And then this is the first book that really exposed, basically saying everything he ever did was intelligence involved. You, you know, he's, he's an awful person. He's an evil genius, but, uh, you know,

• 2:18:30Speaker 02

  it's not true. And I think that I hope to get that across in the film. And I think we do because like a big part of that. That research, I don't think he wanted to do. I think he, he in a way was forced to do it, you know?

• 2:18:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And whatever this kind of amorphous blob that is the UFO legacy program that is always proverbially discussed, but you know, usually in a very kind of high level fuzzy ways. I think that's probably the case with a lot of these people is that they were kind of sucked up into, in certain cases, they probably came upon really exciting scientific truths that were converging on things that, you know, some, you know, behind the, the, the iron curtain science, you know, uh, group in the US, you know, uh, during kind of Cold War secrecy era, already knew and, uh, and, and they would recruit these people and then they would probably be forced to,

• 2:19:24Jesse Michels?

  you know, work on things in contexts that they weren't particularly happy about and didn't feel idealistic about and.

• 2:19:31Speaker 02

  I'm sure that that's the case with him because I, again, like, I don't want to, um, come, come across as someone who's trying to like, put him out there because I'm not, I mean, like, I got to know his family really well. I'm like very close with them.

• 2:19:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:47Speaker 02

  And, and they were great when I showed them the sort of final product, which really gets into this stuff. And they were like, you did a good job because you didn't shy away from, from that. And I think, you know, you illustrated it well, but you know, they were even like, wow, there's so much in here. We had no idea about like, we literally had no idea. You, you're telling us stuff that we never even heard before.

• 2:20:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:11Speaker 02

  So that just goes to show his own family was in the dark about a lot of it. But you know, the nine, again, like, I just keep thinking, I think about it a lot and

• 2:20:23Speaker 02

  I, again, like the, the answer just is, I don't know. But what I've heard and what I've had access to that came directly from his personal records would indicate that it was, it was a made up.

• 2:20:38Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:20:39Speaker 02

  A made up thing.

• 2:20:40Jesse Michels?

  Hmm hmm hmm hmm. Fascinating. Well, that, I mean, that in and of itself seems a little messed up as does, you know, slipping somebody mushrooms or, you know, telling them they've been abducted by aliens and taken aboard a ship when they haven't, or quote unquote teleporting them and throwing them through a window and, you know, like, these things aren't cool, you know?

• 2:21:02Speaker 02

  And again, like, I think if you watch, if anyone watches footage of Puhar, it's electric. He's the most jovial, funny night, you know, like, he's not this, like, monster person. And that's why I quite frankly, think makes him like interesting and an interesting subject for a film because like, he's complicated and he, he's, he's, again, I think, being sucked into these things that he would otherwise not want to do. And he, and not to ruin the end of the film, but he basically like admits that, that he basically admits like that is what was going on with him.

• 2:21:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well.

• 2:21:35Speaker 02

  And he warns future researchers, basically like, don't do what I did, essentially is what he, he, his message is.

• 2:21:43Jesse Michels?

  If you look at the Zombardo prison experiments at Stanford or whatever, where, you know, these prison guards start to get really self-important, or Stanley Milgram's shock experiments, you know, it's a, and then you combine that with the, you know, the, the, the power of the CIA at the time, I'm sure you could get coerced into doing all sorts of things. And does that fully exonerate you? Like, probably not. But, uh, it's, uh, yeah, I mean, I think the, the, the best version, which I think your documentary really gives is the nuanced one, where it shows how somebody could get incrementally walked into a position like that.

• 2:22:23Speaker 02

  And there's just no question, the level of, um, you know, how, how deeply connected he was to intelligence. I mean, there's, there's a paper trail of it. So there's this, there's no way to kind of beat around that bush. I think, again, I've just, I've read so much online and there's a lot of speculation, but at the end of the day, like, those people don't, haven't seen the materials that, you know, we had. So.

• 2:22:46Jesse Michels?

  So interesting. Were there any other experiments? They were obviously channeling, they were using these sort of Faraday chambers, they had this machine that produced tones. Any other experiments that they were doing with the space kids specifically?

• 2:23:01Speaker 02

  Well, here's what's interesting is that, um, and you see in the film, like, Getting back to this idea of the nine being this kind of endpoint, just to like,

• 2:23:12Speaker 02

  get things, get things done.

• 2:23:15Speaker 02

  In the seventies, we're talking seventy four through seventy six, you know, Middle East War, right? Going on and Puharich and

• 2:23:26Speaker 02

  specifically Phyllis Schlemmer, he was still working with her then, but and, and, and all the space kids, you know, they weren't specifically going on these trips, but they would literally have a session, right? With the nine. And they would do group sessions where it would be like, you know, two people, Puharich and two other people, him and three other people, him and six other people. And that would apparently like bring the message through more strongly and so forth. But um, in that time, they're getting messages from the nine saying, you know, you need to go to Egypt, do you need to go to, you know, any, you know,

• 2:24:09Speaker 02

  Middle East area, you need to go to Russia, you know, and all these places which would otherwise be very difficult for, for somebody to just go to during that period. In fact, one of the guys working with Puharich at that time, John Whitmore, he was a British guy that got really involved, like he even says in an interview, like you, you, you normally could not even get into these countries at this time, yet Puharich with his psychic were, were going constantly. Because the nine said, you have to go here, you have to go there. And so he kind of hints at like, well, what was that really the nine or once again, was Puharich involved in something else?

• 2:24:54Speaker 02

  That he had to be in these areas at this time, you know, under the auspices that this was a psychic, you know, this was the nine telling them to go there. Phyllis Schlemmer completely questions everything and, you know, way later in her life, she did an interview, she said, he used the, the TD one hundred machine on me all the time. I never knew what it did. I never questioned what it did. And so you just have to ask like, how is it that Puharich is able to go to these places during that time, get into very specific locations, often involving very high ranking government people. And it's all just, oh, hey, the nine told us to come here. So we're here. And, um,

• 2:25:36Speaker 02

  and so a lot of people speculate, you know, I'm, I've heard stories of, you know, Christian missionaries who were actually spies and, you know, something like that going on. Again, it's, uh, interesting to go down that road to think about it. Nothing we have like concretely proves that. But I just think like, the more you listen to those tapes at that time, and the more you just kind of put things together, like, it does seem like, what if that was, that was the cover? And oh, this guy's so crazy. He actually thinks a psychic is telling him, oh, just let him go. What a, what a kook. And meanwhile, he's, you know, doing whatever he's, he needs to do there.

• 2:26:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's using the stigma of the science kind of in your favor as a cover for something more vital that clearly was, was actually working and functional.

• 2:26:27Speaker 02

  And he actually, on these tapes, gives, this goes back to like the remote viewing stuff of like, some of the questions that they're asking are like, you know, what are, what is the code name that, you know, the, the, you know, Russian guerrilla soldiers are using? So we then know what to pick up on when we hear this code name. So then that begs the question, oh, why would an alien, why would an alien be like, asking those types of questions if that's what you're supposed to be doing, talking to the nine? But to go back to the, the, the, the constant contrast

• 2:27:04Speaker 02

  is like, he really was a genuine believer, because he would often go to the Great Pyramid in the, in the same time, and do like, all sorts of experiments there.

• 2:27:18Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:27:19Speaker 02

  And he just loved going there. Like, he was obsessed with the pyramid. He's obsessed with the history, all the, the Egyptian god, like, so you know, that's not.

• 2:27:27Jesse Michels?

  And there are nine, there are specifically nine Egyptian gods.

• 2:27:30Speaker 02

  So that was something he was like obsessive about. He would, he, we have tape recordings of him meditating in the King's Chamber.

• 2:27:36Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 2:27:37Speaker 02

  In seventy-six. And he did experiments with, um,

• 2:27:42Speaker 02

  Uh, one of the space kids in the pyramid and they brought through this information. Apparently they're channeling this Egyptian god and some pretty weird information lined up during that session. So then that goes back to like, it's almost like, okay, I gotta, I, I have to, you know, do my job for the CIA and on my off time, I, I can go in the pyramid and, and do, do some cool stuff. I'm interested in that's just kind of what it seems because like, again, there's no mind manipulation, dark stuff going on there. It's, it's, it's very clearly him like, I'm going to meditate in the king's chamber. Like, well, what does that have to do with, you

• 2:28:22Speaker 02

  know, MKUltra? So I just think like, and again, this goes to like his death in the mystery book around that, where I think like, there was a situation too, where he may have been, you know, on payroll for, you know, XYZ intelligence agencies and going to do these things, but kind of using that time to do other things he wanted. And maybe that was, he, he shouldn't have done that, you know? You think they took him out as a result? Maybe it's that. Yeah, I think a part of it is that he, he, cause again, he's going to Egypt, right? Because the nine are saying, you have to go here. You have to go to this location to meditate this and that. But I think he's going, okay, well, I'm already in Egypt.

• 2:29:05Speaker 02

  And there's the great pyramid and I've been wanting to go in there anyways. So I'm already here. I'm gonna go, you know, but he's there, ma- maybe on, on a mission and hey, you know, don't screw around kind of thing. I think there was a lot of that going on and um, his death is completely mysterious. What, what happened?

• 2:29:23Speaker 12

  You can see the stairway right for this window where my father allegedly fell down and they found him right at the bottom of the stairs.

• 2:29:34Speaker 12

  We don't really know. Not to ask. What killed him?

• 2:29:41Speaker 02

  Well, so there's a couple of things. He was sick at the time. But not, I believe, not enough that would have caused this to happen. But basically, it was 95.

• 2:29:55Speaker 02

  And around this time, he was very vocal about his life. Like, he was doing these sort of lecture tours, that sort of parapsychology conferences and stuff. And he was being very open about his past. And it was one of these lectures at that time where he said, you know, look, I'll admit it. I worked for this part of the CIA. My boss was the guy who was directly involved with all the hypnosis, mind manipulation. Who was his boss? He doesn't name his boss. But I, you know what? He might, actually. Let me think.

• 2:30:31Speaker 02

  He does. I have to think about it. Did you figure out? Yeah, yeah, I know it. Trust me. It's just in my crazy head, Puharich's head. But, but I'll remember it. But, um, basically. And so he says, yeah, that's what I did. I was, I was, I was a consultant at the time. And so he opens up about a lot of that stuff. He literally says, uh, I can produce in your mind the image of, of, um, an alien experience.

• 2:31:02Speaker 02

  His assistant. What? At the time was a woman who was on this, this tape that Dick Russell recorded, I told you about. And Puharich was in the hospital. There's a part of the tape where Dick Russell goes outside. I think they're having a smoke or something and he's, and he's just kind of like, hey, look, you know, give it to me straight. Like, what's going on with this guy? And she, she opens up to you and she says, yeah, he told me about things he's done that he, he, he's worried for his life about thing. She says he, um, using flashing lights, using all, all tone, all of that stuff was able to create the, the, the UFO experience. That that stuff is all created, she says.

• 2:31:47Speaker 02

  So what? She was opening up about that on this tape and so.

• 2:31:52Jesse Michels?

  So he would like stage UFO is showing up as well?

• 2:31:57Speaker 02

  Well, I think what she's, I think what she was getting at is what we were talking about with this, this controllers idea is that, yeah, like kind of, I guess more implanting the, the, the idea that you've had an encounter or, you know, you've been abducted or so like he was involved. Basically making the point, he was involved in that kind of stuff, that kind of research.

• 2:32:21Speaker 02

  And again, you know, you're going to ask like, why, why, you know, like, why was it always like the UFO thing? But, um, but all that was going on like right before he died, you know, that tape was recorded less than a year before he died. But, um, he, he was found at the bottom of the stairs. He fell and he, he passed away and at the time he had all these, um, he was still, and again, this goes back to like, what did he really believe? He was still living with this group of like women who were like psychics apparently. And he, they lived with him and he was still like, you know, you're doing stuff with them or whatever.

• 2:33:05Speaker 02

  But, but conveniently that day they, no one else was there at the house. When they were usually always at the house. And Puharich has this like weird legal pad that he wrote like very soon before this, this incident occurred where he, he fell on the stairs where he's basically like outlining why he thinks he's being monitored. He names people that he believes have come into his life who are, who are there to. Basically harm him and take him out. He claimed, again, this is either like the work of someone completely paranoid or somebody who's just totally telling the truth.

• 2:33:50Speaker 02

  Well, it's right before he fell down the stairs mysteriously. He claimed that they, this, this, and again, it makes sense because these psychic people would kind of like show up even to this day and be like, hey, you know, you should study me and this kind of thing. So he, and he was a nice guy. Again, so he would want, he would let people in and he would welcome them. And so he claimed that there was a people like that who were actually, you know, basically out to get him and that they installed this E L F emitter in his television set. So when he would turn on the TV, he would get hit by this, you know, E L F that would be, and he, and he was a physician. He was a medical

• 2:34:31Speaker 02

  doctor. So he would know what was going on with his own body. And he writes in this legal pad, like, you know, I'm, this is happening to me. I can tell. He would test himself every day. Well, he also developed a lot of these techniques, right? They're using what he developed on him, on him. Yeah. I mean, if, again, if this were to be believed, which I quite frankly do believe what he says in this, but he basically has this legal pad and he, and it's all these events kind of leading up to why he believes they're, they're out to get him, basically, right? But, um, yeah, coincidentally, the day he's found, you know, there's no one at

• 2:35:09Speaker 02

  the house and, um, right bef, not right before that, but a few years before, before his death, he had been approached by the CIA to head up a E L F research department, basically. Again, he writes this. I've, I've found some evidence to, to, to prove that this, this probably happened, but there was apparently a department being set up just to, to study E L F, um, you know, weapons and so forth. Again, a lot of that was going on in the late seventies and he, he said, no. And apparently some argument ensued and he said, you know, get out of here. And then, because they came to his house, he's kind of recounting this

• 2:35:53Speaker 02

  in his notes. And, um, the guy that he said came on behalf of the CIA to talk to him as a guy we know was involved in CIA. Who's that? This guy named Bob Beck, who's in the, who's in the film.

• 2:36:08Speaker 02

  And he was another Puharich type where where he got roped into a lot of things I think he he wasn't necessarily wanting to to do but um so that happened where he he refused that and said you know no you know get the hell out of here etcetera so all of that stuff was leading up to 95 and he was found dead coincidentally you know the Stargate program ends in 95

• 2:36:32Jesse Michels?

  I was gonna I literally made that connection in my mind yeah

• 2:36:35Speaker 02

  And coincidentally um this guy Grinberg Jacobo Grinberg

• 2:36:41Jesse Michels?

  Yes

• 2:36:42Speaker 02

  Who uh there's a great film shout out to um Ida my friend he made this great film about him um in 95 uh less than a month after Puharich dies he this guy disappears Grinberg when if you see the film um the story basically is he was involved in very similar research basically was able to prove a lot of this psychic stuff is real and to this day they don't know what happened to him he that's still a missing person

• 2:37:10Jesse Michels?

  Did he ever meet Puharich?

• 2:37:11Speaker 02

  Yeah they met when Puharich was in exile in Mexico after his house was was burned uh they were they met in Mexico in in less than um a month after Puharich was uh found dead Grinberg disappeared so again what do you say it's all coincidence and you move on or you say there's something

• 2:37:40Jesse Michels?

  So bizarre yeah Grinberg the the whole thing about him is like he realized we live in a matrix and then he had left the matrix or something like

• 2:37:48Speaker 02

  But what's interesting about him is like again it's it's it's literally still like an open gate like they've never figured it out and of course a lot of people say oh you know he he got sort of kidnapped by whatever government agency and they're using him and you know what's crazy is uh on some random message board uh this was like years ago I saw a post that was somebody like I know for a fact that Puharich never died and he was he was taken in by the government and he's still alive and someone I know and the weirdest thing is A I was skeptical of that but I I was like years later I remember reading that and I and I spent Hours and days trying to find this mess, but I could not find it for the life of me.

• 2:38:34Speaker 02

  I tried everything I could possibly do and I couldn't, I couldn't find it.

• 2:38:39Speaker 02

  So that was weird.

• 2:38:39Jesse Michels?

  That's super.

• 2:38:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:40Jesse Michels?

  So it just got erased or something.

• 2:38:42Speaker 02

  I get it, but that was the, that's like the real theory of Grinberg. Like again, the doc is really good, but there's like actually, you know, legitimate proof that like he, he was sort of taken by, by the government.

• 2:38:57Jesse Michels?

  So that's what your friend who made the movie thinks, that he was actually taken and.

• 2:39:01Speaker 02

  Well, that's one of the theories that basically everyone involved in the story like agrees with, because everything just points to like that.

• 2:39:08Jesse Michels?

  So.

• 2:39:09Speaker 02

  That happening. So, so all that was 95. January 95 was Bukhar's death, February 95, Grinberg goes missing, Stargate officially ends in 95. Government puts out newspaper articles all over the news, you know, Stargate, there's nothing to it. It was all bunk.

• 2:39:30Speaker 02

  So, and keep in mind Bukhar at that time was lecturing about all of that and being honest, being open about all the experiments he did with, you know, Stargate. So I think Annie Jacobson alludes to it. Like, I just think it was this classic, you know, he knows too much. And he can't be, he can't be out there talking and he, he's experienced too much. He knows too much and it's not good. So.

• 2:40:00Jesse Michels?

  I could see them seeing him as a liability late in life, you know, maybe he feels remorse about some of the things that he did and he's speaking openly and.

• 2:40:09Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:40:10Jesse Michels?

  They're probably just trying to accelerate the research in the, in the black. What, what are some of the wilder testimonies of the space kids that you spoke to?

• 2:40:19Speaker 02

  So basically with the space kids, like, yeah, there, there were a lot. And again, the reason the film took so long, which, you know, to give my, myself credit for, because a lot of people are like, I can't believe it took you so long and this and that. But a lot of it was like just getting people to talk. Because, you know, you could imagine. These people like don't want to. And again, this is what you know, you hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff like these, these people like weren't looking to be in the spotlight. In fact, they didn't want to be. It took about two years for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids who I now consider like good, good friends, but that's what took so long.

• 2:41:02Speaker 02

  And I always thought like, in order to make a really cool film, like you gotta get these space kids. It's like stranger things in real life, you know, like that's what would make this thing work. And so I was just like convinced we gotta get these, these people and we got, we got five of them. But again, there was like a lot more. A few of them were like, you know, never reach out to me again. I want nothing to do with this. So.

• 2:41:25Jesse Michels?

  What did they say? I mean, that's why five is amazing. What, what did they say?

• 2:41:29Speaker 02

  Well, so basically like, yeah, what I did was I somehow was able to track them down just basically through like in Puhar's archives and things. And again, on the tapes, like he would say a name or he would write their name. Well, actually, in fact, in one of his journals, he like wrote all the names of the kids at the time. So it's pretty easy to like Google people, but

• 2:41:52Speaker 02

  yeah, a lot of the, the ones we got were, were again, after kind of talking to them and saying, hey, I'm, I'm, you know, trying to do like a level headed, you know, portrayal of Puharich. I'm not some crazy conspiracy person. Like after all that, um, yeah, they were really open, but um, you know, they basically talked a lot about like what it was like being at his house at that time, which again was kind of cultish. I mean, if you want to look at it that way, in the sense that like other than the space, cause there's just all sorts of Sarfati, Jack Sarfati being one of them, like him and his kind of group of physicists, people would go up there. It was this kind of

• 2:42:36Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:42:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, like a hub of just any, all these people interested in this stuff would just go there and like hang out.

• 2:42:41Jesse Michels?

  For people that don't know, Sarfati is a physicist who is

• 2:42:47Jesse Michels?

  Pretty well respected and studied under, you know, very impressive people who, you know, were Manhattan Project, you know, pioneers. And he has a model of time travel and warp drive physics.

• 2:43:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:01Jesse Michels?

  And he, he lives in the Bay Area and he's very outspoken, loves to call people schmuck. He's written about, um, In the Hippies Saved Physics, uh, by, by David Kaiser, this MIT guy.

• 2:43:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:12Jesse Michels?

  And, um, so I didn't know he had any interaction with, uh, uh, Puharich. That's amazing.

• 2:43:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, he went to his house.

• 2:43:19Jesse Michels?

  Because he also, I believe Sarfati, the way he got involved in this exotic physics that he ended up studying was he claims that as a teenager, he was in some gifted and talented education program.

• 2:43:32Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 2:43:32Jesse Michels?

  And he was, he gets a call from the future saying, you're going to meet the others. You're going to be work on like building UFOs essentially, which he believes his work touches on building UFOs.

• 2:43:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:43Jesse Michels?

  And in, this is a guy who could keep up with, you know, any top theoretical physicist in the world. Like he's, he's a real physicist. He studied under Hans Betz, uh, you know, at Cornell and stuff.

• 2:43:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:55Jesse Michels?

  And, um, he, uh, says he gets a call from the future and then, and then, you know, they tell him when he's going to meet the others and then he ends up meeting Hal Puthoff like later or whatever. And it's this weird synchronicity, you know, it's so strange. So he's interacting with Andre Puharich.

• 2:44:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know, it's a crazy connection I just thought of.

• 2:44:17Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:44:17Speaker 02

  Um, in that story, so the Sarfati story, uh, quickly is, yeah, he, he got this call from this metallic voice, which is what some of the, um, Geller claims this as well, actually, but.

• 2:44:33Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:44:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he gets this called metallic voice. That was some sort of, you know, alien intelligence. But, um, I don't know if you remember as part of the story where his, I think it was his dad or his uncle or something was, was involved in the army or army intelligence. And one of the people that he knew through a family member that was connected was this guy, Wilson Green. He brings up this guy, Wilson Green. And that. Guy Wilson Green was working with Buharich in the 50s. At the roundtable, doing everything they were doing there.

• 2:45:09Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 2:45:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:45:10Jesse Michels?

  So do you, did you ever ask him point blank, hey, Jack, like, was any of your stuff? Do you think it was seeded by these sort of, you know,

• 2:45:19Speaker 02

  It could have been.

• 2:45:20Jesse Michels?

  Mind control people or?

• 2:45:21Speaker 02

  I mean, I think like, he's open about that being a possibility as far as.

• 2:45:26Jesse Michels?

  He is.

• 2:45:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I just remember him bringing up that name. And in, in, in Puharich's journals, like he has one where he's kind of listing all these people. That's when I first told you about the Townsend Brown connection.

• 2:45:37Jesse Michels?

  This is insane.

• 2:45:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:45:38Jesse Michels?

  This is the craziest, yeah, to tell everybody about this.

• 2:45:42Speaker 02

  Well, in one of his journals, it was just him recounting, like, he would often go to DC for like meetings.

• 2:45:48Jesse Michels?

  Puharich would.

• 2:45:49Speaker 02

  Would. And this is early 50s again, which weird that the same year you're channeling the nine, you know, in your lab, you're going to DC to meet with all these people. But he would just like, keep very meticulous journals about what he did, where he went, who he met. And he would just like, hey, I met this person today for lunch, met that person. And so, yeah, Wilson Green comes to mind because he had something to do with, um, I think it was the Army Psychological Warfare Department. And that's the same guy Sarfati references. But in these journals, he mentions, um, meeting Townsend Brown. And spending the day with him. And it's very brief, unfortunate. Actually, maybe we could do this together.

• 2:46:33Speaker 02

  It's part of the page that's like, so worn, you can't really like read what it says, but it's, it's kind of a, you know, a brief, uh, mention that he, he met with, with Brown. And spent the afternoon, he says something like, spent the afternoon with him to discuss a lot or something like this.

• 2:46:49Jesse Michels?

  I know some kid who like, helped, I think it's called the Vesuvius Project and he helped decode this ancient papyri. And so if he could do that, hopefully he could get us this, uh, you know, this transcript. That's crazy.

• 2:47:02Speaker 02

  So he met him and this was, again, I'm, I'm positive it was 53 was that, that journal. So, yeah, he was going there. So yeah, that's how I found.

• 2:47:13Jesse Michels?

  And it brings up all these questions of like, were people like Werner von Braun and Brown's ideas somehow seeded by like MKUltra adjacent things like probably not because you have like, you know, Werner von Braun goes way back to like, you know, early journey. He's clearly like a, you know, a rocketry genius like, you know, as a young kid was all was way into this like, you know, like in his teenage years. Or was like, you know, if you think about like, what would be one of the main use cases of MKUltra, it would be like keeping secret science sort of on lock, maybe creating some sort of cult dynamics around it, wiping people's memories when they work on really sensitive shit. Like, who knows? And Townsend Brown, to me, obviously, I'm very

• 2:47:58Jesse Michels?

  high conviction in his stuff. The audience will give me shit because I talk about him all the time. But I think he's like the godfather of American kind of, you know, in the black, dark science, like whole tech trees that come from anti-gravity or extended electrodynamics or fifth dimensional physics, I think kind of arrives from Townsend Brown. And so I wonder, I wonder what that meeting was like. The time then was weird overall. I think what people don't realize about the 50s is like, there's a letter between, I think it's Claude Shannon, who invented information theory, was at Princeton. Information theory is the basis

• 2:48:36Jesse Michels?

  of all modern computation. And William Shockley, who invented the modern semiconductor, you know, Bell Labs essentially. And it was a letter and he goes, you know, my, my friend, you have to meet my friend. He's really interesting. You know, he's into all this, you know, interesting science stuff or whatever. And it turns out he's talking about Elrond Hubbard. And so the point is, is like, it's this weird time where the intersection between the types of people who'd be engaging in like bizarre séances, ESP paranormal stuff, that wasn't outside the Overton window like it is today. And so. Yeah, anyway, how would you speculate on, do you, have you speculated on the connection

• 2:49:21Jesse Michels?

  between Townsend Brown and Puharich?

• 2:49:24Speaker 02

  Nothing more than just they were probably interested in similar,

• 2:49:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:28Speaker 02

  similar things and, and, but it's odd because he said it was in DC.

• 2:49:33Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:49:33Speaker 02

  So Brown was there for whatever reason.

• 2:49:36Jesse Michels?

  Well, Brown was probably deep in intelligence. I mean, there's a story of Townsend Brown engaging in a UFO crash retrieval. And I think it's in the late 50s. And it's like, I think Hartford, Connecticut. And this like green glowing object that seems like it's losing mass gets collected by a professor there named Robert Brown. It then ends up at Moon Watch at Harvard, which is connected with Blue Book. And Robert Friend and Jalen Heinecke have possession of this, you know, material. And Townsend Brown walks into Harvard, flashes his credentials and takes the material. And like that, you hear stories like that time, you have telegraphs that I think, or

• 2:50:21Jesse Michels?

  telegrams that his daughter, I think has, I know this, I think through this amazing researcher on Townsend Brown named Jan Lundquist. And I think she says that there's a telegram between William Stevenson, who's the inspiration for James Bond, Ian Fleming, Churchill super spy, who was like, you know, coordinating with Wild Bill Donovan, the OSS. He was like as high up as it gets when it comes to intelligence. And there's a telegram from him to Josephine, who's Townsend Brown's wife. Because Townsend Brown had flown behind enemy territory, parachuted into, you know, Nazi Germany in 45 to interrogate some scientists because he was an expert in all this stuff.

• 2:51:05Jesse Michels?

  And it's, this telegram is, says, you know, from William Stevenson, your husband is okay. You know, he's, he's been injured, but he's okay. And he's on his way back to the US or whatever. So I can give you like 50 other stories like that, like Curtis LeMay. I mean, his daughter said, I think on the phone with me, Linda Brown says Curtis LeMay chases Townsend Brown down the stairs because he's so interested in his inventions and stuff. So this guy was like as deep as it gets when it came to the American intelligence and military elite. So it makes sense if Puharich was as well on the kind of the psychic, you know, you know, vector. And maybe if all of this stuff is being coordinated at a higher level than we understand.

• 2:51:48Jesse Michels?

  And there's some spooky spooky science stuff and the anti-gravity connects with the psychic stuff and you know nuts and bolts like they all kind of materials they all kind of connect at the at the top those two guys seem like very central nodes.

• 2:52:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think there's a lot of similarities with what you said, you know, this idea of like flashing credentials and walking in play. I mean, there's again, I could give you 50 examples of Puharich doing that kind of thing that I've heard.

• 2:52:15Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:52:16Speaker 02

  And so that, yeah, and I think like the journals that mentioned Brown and these others like I don't think these were sort of meant to be seen, you know, these were like buried in his in his records. In fact, like in the film, you'll see like his, his, his assistant at one point kind of mentions this idea that like not, not, um, not long before he passed away, like he had made mention like these papers I have in my house need someone needs to take them. I don't trust giving them my children for their safety. And so I think this is stuff that was not supposed to be, um, read, you know, or seen.

• 2:52:54Jesse Michels?

  It's amazing.

• 2:52:55Speaker 02

  There's a lot of other names. I researched them all. He met with Dulles. I guess I didn't mention that.

• 2:53:00Jesse Michels?

  Wild.

• 2:53:00Speaker 02

  He there's he literally again in the journal met. He's like, you know, says something like, uh, you know, wait, it was in the waiting room for an hour and finally got in and we had, we talked and so obviously you're up to something serious.

• 2:53:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:16Speaker 02

  Doing that.

• 2:53:17Jesse Michels?

  You're meeting with the third director of the CIA who, yeah, that's why I mean, if, yeah, if anybody was kind of running the government behind the government, it was Dulles. So.

• 2:53:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:26Jesse Michels?

  D, um, yeah, some of the Wilder testimonies.

• 2:53:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, the space kids.

• 2:53:30Jesse Michels?

  Space kids, yeah.

• 2:53:31Speaker 02

  So, yeah, they, so they just basically recounted a lot of like, um, what they experienced, a lot of the channeling sessions. So a Wilder story is, um, uh, this, one of the space kids, his name is Jaime.

• 2:53:46Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:53:47Speaker 02

  He's, um, from Mexico City, great guy. And again, he was somebody who would never.

• 2:53:54Speaker 02

  Have wanted to appear in a documentary, you know, like his life was totally fine. You know, he didn't need to talk about this, but he did because eventually he told me like, if you're willing to like, tell the real story, like I'll talk because he knows like I did. There's just so much like BS stuff out there about Puharish and everything. But um, he told me a story about he um, he was medit- they, at one time, he was doing an experiment with Puharish's assistant. This woman who's in the film, um, they were doing experiment, they were meditating uh, together and

• 2:54:35Speaker 02

  she, they're sitting in a room together, both meditating. And he says that at one point, she got up and she went over to him and she touched his forehead with her finger. And when she did that, this big uh, blue ball, I guess this like ball of energy, as he describes it, appeared. Next thing he knew, he came to, she was all the way across the room against the wall and he was back up against the wall and he doesn't remember what happened. And the last thing he remembers is that she touched his forehead, some sort of burst of

• 2:55:19Speaker 02

  blue light, she flew across the room. And he

• 2:55:27Speaker 02

  told me that and you know, and he said, look, you know, you can talk to the assistant, like she'll, she'll corroborate this and I did and she did, and she did. And his, his theory was just like we, some connection, you know, must have been, been occurring. And, and

• 2:55:50Speaker 02

  What do you do with that? Because something I learned, which was very bizarre, because this was another thing that Bukharic didn't kind of open up about until way later in his life. As he says, and again, this is not me or speculation or making something up. Like, he says in his own words, he invented this prosthetic finger that would have a chip with a certain ELF frequency that would emit from it. So when you touch somebody's forehead with this, it would be the exact frequency that would like knock them into the hypnotic state they needed to be in in order to do channeling.

• 2:56:32Speaker 02

  And so he could basically just like, I could go like this to you and you would fall into the thing. He says that. One of the, one of the kids says, yeah, I remember that. So was this instance with Jaime and the finger, something to do with that? What was it not? I don't know, but that's one of his stories. That was really bizarre.

• 2:56:53Jesse Michels?

  Any UFO related stories?

• 2:56:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was a lot of, um, there were a couple, like the classic, you know, right now, there's a UFO that's sort of hovering over this session. And then some claim to have witnessed that. There was a few stories like that.

• 2:57:17Jesse Michels?

  So that would be in the like, his protocol? Like, he'd be saying that or like they'd be like automatically channeling?

• 2:57:24Speaker 02

  That would be like, apparently the nine, you know, saying that, saying this through them. Yeah. But, um, then there was a lot of, um,

• 2:57:33Jesse Michels?

  But like, if we're to get super concrete about this, like, is that him beaming the message? Right now, there is a UFO, you know, above our head? Or is it like, creating some weird protocol? And then like, what happens to them, happens to them? And we have no idea where that content is coming from.

• 2:57:53Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 2:57:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's strange because.

• 2:58:00Speaker 02

  A lot of these sessions are very long, like some of them are literally like two hours long, you know? And it's, it's just, I hate to say, like, it's kind of like, you just need to hear it to kind of like, to understand, because it's just, it really is mind boggling, because I constantly go from like, this is, this is an experiment, this has been to like, oh, no, this is like, literally, he's making contact with an extraterrestrial.

• 2:58:32Jesse Michels?

  Say you were to suspend disbelief entirely and just take the contents of the nine at face value, how would you characterize these nine beings and what they want for humanity?

• 2:58:46Speaker 02

  Well, it's like I said before, they, they speak a lot about this idea that we have the ability of destroying ourselves, you know? And that if there's a way they can prevent that, then they, they want to. And they talk a lot about nuclear bases and this kind of thing that, you know, we hear a lot about now. They kind of say like, we're kind of behind a lot of the sightings that, that are occurring on nuclear bases.

• 2:59:21Jesse Michels?

  But then now I'm like, you're making me think this shit's real. The reason, I'd love to be cynical about it, but like, the nuclear stuff has been going on since the 40s. There's this guy Bud Clem, there's this UFO and nukes documentary, it's all based on Robert Hastings' great work in his book. It's really good. And I made kind of a, you know, another little thing with Robert Hastings on my channel. But you have this guy Bud Clem as early as 1945 in Hanford, where he's talking about these fireballs in the sky, and they did this project Twinkle, which was deleted from the Air Force archives. Lincoln La Paz, this meteorite expert at University of New Mexico is talking about green fireballs that seem intelligently propelled, flashing, that like, aren't explained by anything prosaic.

• 3:00:06Jesse Michels?

  And just like, the, the nuclear connection is so ubiquitous, and then you're telling me the Atomic Energy Commission gave him money.

• 3:00:12Speaker 02

  They gave him like, over a million dollars.

• 3:00:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, so like, if I were them, I'd be like, try to tap into what the hell is, you know, controlling?

• 3:00:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, dude, this is a crazy rabbit hole.

• 3:00:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:24Speaker 02

  Obviously. What was I gonna say? You know, you're see now you're now you're entering what I've been in for like years of this constant like, wait a second. Now I think this because um

• 3:00:39Speaker 02

  there, there was a lot of uh

• 3:00:43Speaker 02

  well, you know, the the classic thing where like with disin for UFO disinformation, they often say like some of it, you know, some real stuff is sort of peppered into.

• 3:00:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 3:00:52Speaker 02

  I think it was that kind of thing, too, where like maybe there was real, you know, ET UFO related research going on with some of this mind control stuff peppered in just to throw off the course.

• 3:01:05Jesse Michels?

  Well, what connection did you just make when I said the atomic energy?

• 3:01:08Speaker 02

  Well, what what I was thinking was um there is, I think I sent you something about this guy a while ago and I have to say now I don't know enough, so I don't want to go too much into it, but there's a guy, his name's Oliver Reiser. He was a philosophy professor at University of Pittsburgh in the 60s and 70s. And he wrote a book called Cosmic Humanism, which I've only read some of, but it's basically this idea, like his whole worldview is this idea that like everything is right, everything in the world is just run on frequency, tone, sound.

• 3:01:53Speaker 02

  He thinks everything is like the universe is all sound.

• 3:01:58Speaker 02

  And that's how, you know, we that's how like inner interstellar travel works. That's how all psychic stuff where it all comes back down to this, you know, sound tones. Again, there's this big connection here with this tone stuff. But anyways, Bhujarj knew this guy. They exchanged like dozens and dozens of letters. But this guy's theory, Reiser, was, you know, the ability to communicate with, you know, ET UFO is through tones, through sound, and he was like, again, So complex, I can barely understand it, but him and Puharic exchanged these letters

• 3:02:38Speaker 02

  that were like, you know, two masters going back and forth about this stuff, like diagrams, charts, math, and like, you gotta think like, they obviously were like, on to something. And again, this goes back for the 100th time of like, Puharic's real interest in this stuff. But Reiser, yeah, this was his theory, that the way to communicate with, you know, non-human intelligence was essentially through tones and through sound. And so you get Puharic, you know, doing that, basically, where he's using tones and sound with space kids. And can you, while they're in a trance, there's a lot of experiments where like, I'm gonna play

• 3:03:20Speaker 02

  this certain tone, and can you kind of like, connect with that tone while you're in this hypnotic state? And can you follow that tone? Where is it bringing you? And what do you hear? Now, all sorts of stuff like that. So I guess what I'm getting at is, maybe there was some real research there.

• 3:03:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:43Speaker 02

  That had to do with something that wasn't just, you know, a mind control thing, because this guy Reiser was brilliant. I mean, in his obituary, Albert Einstein said he was like, you know, a genius.

• 3:03:55Jesse Michels?

  Is that true?

• 3:03:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:03:57Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 3:03:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, Albert Einstein said like, Reiser is, he had some quote about him being, you know, this genius.

• 3:04:04Jesse Michels?

  That's insane, because Reiser talks about like, parapsychology and mind matter stuff.

• 3:04:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04:10Jesse Michels?

  And you think of Einstein as being totally opposed to.

• 3:04:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think with Reiser, like a lot of guys, like, he started doing more, you know, quote unquote, legitimate research, but he got, he got obsessed with this, again, this, this theory of tone, sound, connecting the universe.

• 3:04:25Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:04:25Speaker 02

  This is how everything works. And so him and Puharic were exchanging a lot of letters about like, you know, do you have the ability to, to create? Such and such a tone and what, at what speed should it spin within the, you know, complex stuff, but would lead me as a layperson to think like, okay, clearly they like, they're talking about something serious here, you know?

• 3:04:51Jesse Michels?

  Ah, so fascinating.

• 3:04:53Speaker 02

  So, so.

• 3:04:54Jesse Michels?

  And the Atomic Energy Commission, funding it, I find.

• 3:04:56Speaker 02

  Those same years, literally the same years, he's exchanging letters with the riser.

• 3:05:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:01Speaker 02

  Sixty-three, sixty-four.

• 3:05:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:04Speaker 02

  That's when he gets the contract from Atomic Energy Commission. I mean, it's all, there's, there's, it's a paper trail.

• 3:05:10Jesse Michels?

  And the fifties UFOs showing up around nuclear bases is this ubiquitous thing. It's constant. It's all over various CIA, Air Force documents. You know, I sort of document a lot of this stuff. Hastings documents it. It was definitely a thing. Sixty-four, there's a famous case at Vandenberg Air Force Base. The guy, photo instrumentation specialist named Bob Jacobs. So that's, that's fascinating.

• 3:05:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:05:35Jesse Michels?

  Very interesting.

• 3:05:36Speaker 02

  So, yeah, it just points back to this idea that I, you know, he, he was genuinely interested in, in paranormal, you know, research and UFO. I mean, it's not just like all of that was fake.

• 3:05:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:05:51Speaker 02

  I just think it got muddled at some point.

• 3:05:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And like, you know, maybe there's somebody like typing out, you know, what these space kids are channeling. And then it's converted into this E L F frequency and it's transmitting to the, you know, space kid's brain or whatever.

• 3:06:07Speaker 02

  Well, you know, it's weird you say that because on a lot of the tapes, there's mention of

• 3:06:12Speaker 02

  coupling to the computer data bank.

• 3:06:14Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:06:15Speaker 02

  Is often a term that is thrown around a lot. And this idea that there are some sort of computers involved.

• 3:06:23Jesse Michels?

  On which end though? Because are they recording what they're saying?

• 3:06:28Speaker 02

  No, what you, what you just said, somebody's typing something.

• 3:06:32Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 3:06:32Speaker 02

  Because they often say.

• 3:06:34Jesse Michels?

  Well, now I'm back in the, in the more cynical camp where it's.

• 3:06:37Speaker 02

  Well, they said at one point, he said, um, that, you know, the, referring to the channel being the, the person, you know, at some point they will become a more reliable source of data. And there's a lot of talk about, about that. And again, like what we have are tapes and tons of them and hundreds of hours. So like you just, all you can do is piece together.

• 3:07:01Jesse Michels?

  Well, what did the space kids think? Do they think that they were genuinely tapping into nine, you know, non-human entities or extraterrestrials? Or do they think that they were tapping into like some dude on the other end? Like, because a lot of them probably know the history that you know at this point.

• 3:07:18Speaker 02

  Well, that's a great question, and I think that's really the best way to approach it. Cause they, they were involved firsthand. But I think, you know, to answer from what I know is I actually discovered things about, you know, what I'm talking about with these more sinister connections that they, they did not know in fact. One of the space kids who I'm close with, like, yeah, she, she was like, you know, shocked. I, I, because again, what, what they didn't understand, or I think a lot of people didn't understand who were involved in this project is like, information, I was getting information like as recent as like six months ago about things that I didn't know that were like,

• 3:07:58Speaker 02

  really important to the story, like this guy Bob Beck, who was, who was most certainly CIA, who was at the, at Austin at the time of these exact space kids experiments. This, one of the spaces, like, I never even knew, knew that, like, you're telling me this for the first time. So it's a mix between, I think, to be quite honest, I think a lot of them want to believe that what was happening was genuine. And I think they want to remember the time they had there as a positive time. And they want to, they don't want to go down the negative path, or they don't maybe want to accept

• 3:08:42Speaker 02

  that the negative path. May maybe, you know, the reality and I don't, I mean, I would probably do that. I mean, I, you know, so I think some of them want to just try to say, hey, look, we were told, we were talking in the nine, we were committing with the nine. We were, it was a good time. We were young. We were free, you know, et cetera. And a few of them have become more open, like the guy from Mexico City, I told you, where I think some of the things that I told them made them say, wait a second, I didn't know that. And all of a sudden, after all these years, they themselves are going, wait, what did it say and whose name is, and they're starting to put pieces together that they never, they never thought about.

• 3:09:26Speaker 02

  And they're starting to maybe think at least, okay, something else was going on. Well, was it, you know, we don't, we don't know for sure, but I think they're willing to accept like some, something else was going on back then.

• 3:09:41Jesse Michels?

  One of the trippiest people that interacted with Puharich, who, who he probably had plans for, and it almost seems like the subject of some, you know, kind of maniacal experiment is Valerie Ranson.

• 3:09:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:09:55Jesse Michels?

  Who is she?

• 3:09:57Speaker 02

  She, well, I wish I knew who she was. She's like the most elusive person I've ever come across. I think she's the most elusive person in this whole UFO history. Where, I mean, so basically what I do know is that she was, um, she was working in the White House during the Nixon administration. And it had nothing to do with like intelligent, or maybe it did, but it had nothing to do with intelligence or anything. It was, it was some sort of, um, uh, program to, I can't remember, it was sort of like a SNAP benefits type program. It was some, something like this, but that's how she was, you know, involved in government, where she was part of a, a program like that.

• 3:10:41Speaker 02

  But apparently she became very interested in the UFO topic. She became very good friends with Gordon Cooper. And she claimed to be a space kid, I guess, like she claimed to be able to like channel information. And so she somehow wound up at Puharich's lab, lab nine and, and 78. And she. Is very, there's nothing there about her. There's nothing out there about her. There's a couple of people I know about who have been trying to track her down for years. They can't. Apparently she's still alive, but she basically, I believe, was extremely deep in the whole UFO

• 3:11:26Speaker 02

  thing, and I think knew a lot. We have a tape recording of this guy Elvis Starr, who was very, very high up. I can't remember his exact role. He was like maybe head of the army in the 60s, some high up role in the army. But anyways, he's very, very connected. There's pictures of him with like every, you know, president during the 60s, 70s. Like, there's a tape of him saying like, I met Valerie Ranson in the White House. She believed she was in touch with extraterrestrials. And he kind of makes a joke like, what do I know? Maybe she was. But that kind of firmly places her in that circle. Cause there's a lot of speculation about

• 3:12:08Speaker 02

  like, what's true and what's not true. But this was a very legitimate guy basically placing her.

• 3:12:13Jesse Michels?

  What's, what was his role exactly?

• 3:12:15Speaker 02

  He was, um, so from what I understand is, yeah, he was like the head of Army something or other. And then he went on to become the president of like West Virginia University. But he was a part of all these like weird science, um, companies and weird energy companies that were happening in the late 70s. Like there's this, this company called Magnetic Energies LLC or something that Valerie had some sort of connection to. And this guy was like consulting for that, or he was connected to a lot of like weird stuff, basically. And it's very little on

• 3:12:55Speaker 02

  him other than his more official kind of government roles. But, um, he, he has this, cause he was writing a memoir. And we found this tape where he was kind of like dictating, um, the, what he was writing. And he says, yeah, I met her. She was in the White House a lot. She knew a lot of people. But yeah, she basically, she just claimed that she could communicate with UFOs that were giving her advanced, um, information that she in effect had to pass on to like important scientists. She predicted the failure of one of these rocket launches in the late 70s that actually did occur.

• 3:13:29Jesse Michels?

  Which?

• 3:13:30Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't know. You have to.

• 3:13:31Jesse Michels?

  That's so great. What, um, oh, wow.

• 3:13:34Speaker 02

  So, so, so basically she was there, but, but the kicker is like. She was also really involved in a lot of Tesla technology research, a lot of E L F research and a lot of people who I know who were, including the space kids, were like, yeah, she was like, she was connected. She was extremely mysterious. We have no idea what was going on with her.

• 3:13:58Jesse Michels?

  So they remember seeing her around?

• 3:14:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:14:01Jesse Michels?

  And then, and then, but and she was somehow like, do you know what role she had in the White House or?

• 3:14:06Speaker 02

  No, other than this guy, Elvis Star, basically saying like, I, I met her on, on numerous occasions at, you know, inside the White House. You can look it up. I can look it up too. I, I, I'm sorry. I don't remember, but it was some program that she like ran in DC and as part of the Nixon administration, which again was not like involved in an intelligence thing, but that was her like in with, with that, that world.

• 3:14:33Jesse Michels?

  And she had some N R O involvement too?

• 3:14:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Jacques Vallée is the only one I know who wrote about it, but he claims that he, he spoke with her back in that late seventies time and she was doing some sort of work for the N R O and experimenting with satellites and messages from satellites to people. And I'm telling you, man, yeah. I mean, I've tried to, I mean, the other film I'm doing, which is a whole other thing. But she's really involved in that. And that's how I got into her because we have a tape recording of her. That was a phone call that was recorded, but yeah, if there's like any crazy enigma in this world that someone needs to like, get to the bottom of it's, it's her.

• 3:15:19Speaker 02

  And I don't know if they ever will, because I've certainly tried hard to, and apparently she's still alive.

• 3:15:24Jesse Michels?

  She's still alive?

• 3:15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15:25Jesse Michels?

  Oh, you gotta go find her, man.

• 3:15:27Speaker 02

  Well, I've, I've, I think I, I think we kind of know where, where she is and stuff, but, but it's really just strange. She was very involved with Gordon Cooper. And again, he had started some company as well. That was some like advanced energy LLC or something. And so from what I understand, she was kind of like,

• 3:15:48Speaker 02

  Going around and even Jacques says this, like she was just trying to create this network of, of, you know, high up government individuals and people to kind of like start getting interested in, in advanced technology, Tesla technology, ELF stuff. But all, all the while she claimed to be, you know, a space kid and able to receive information and, and channel information and.

• 3:16:13Jesse Michels?

  So trippy.

• 3:16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. And there's a guy, a Kit Green. He, um, I mean, I don't even care anymore at this point about saying stuff like this. Like he, I was talking to him for a while and he was like, yeah, I can't be involved in anything that mentions Buhar is just too controversial. And then he told me that he knew Valerie Rantz on really well and that he was like, I don't know much about him. Again, I'm not trying to cover cause I'm like nervous or anything. I genuinely don't really know. I just know I've heard a lot about him being like a doc, like a person who helps like abductee, people who claim they're abducted and stuff. So apparently he was doing that even back then with Valerie and he was working

• 3:16:54Speaker 02

  with her, which I don't know what that means exactly. But he was very, I mean, there's something out there online as that's a, you know, very, you know, open where he talks about this, I think. But, um, anyways, he, I was like, hey, I'm trying to do this Valerie thing. But he was just like, yeah, no. And like basically like, don't talk to me again. And anything revolving that name, I can't be associated with.

• 3:17:21Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:17:22Speaker 02

  And every single person I've talked to who knew Valerie or had same reaction. Yeah. He, I'm literally like, I wouldn't go there. You should just kind of stop now. And I've gotten all that stuff.

• 3:17:37Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:17:37Speaker 02

  So like, what's going on?

• 3:17:39Jesse Michels?

  What do you think? Do you have, it was for, first of all, a little context for the audience, Kit Green.

• 3:17:45Jesse Michels?

  Deeply involved. He's a CIA psychiatrist and doctor.

• 3:17:48Speaker 02

  I knew that, but after all that stuff, I don't really know like what his.

• 3:17:52Jesse Michels?

  He's deeply involved in like, I think the whatever CIA files around biological interactions from, you know, people interacting with UFOs. That was given to Gary Nolan in the like mid 2010s. I think that was, I think, given by Kit Green and Kit Green analyzed them alongside Gary Nolan. But he's like a long time guy who kind of pops up in UFO lore, kind of akin to Hal Puthoff, but really seems to be as deep as anybody specifically on kind of the the psychological kind of, you know, you know, neuroscientific dimension of this whole thing. So what, what do you, do you speculate as to what Valerie?

• 3:18:35Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I have a couple of things. But yeah, the Kit Green thing, again, I'm not, I did talk to him. I'm not trying to throw him under the bus. I just think he like, it's just another example of someone who's like, oh, her. Yeah, I can't be involved. Like you, you're better off like not going there kind of thing. So a couple of speculations. Firstly, and this came from someone

• 3:18:58Speaker 02

  named Bruce Erickson, who's this kind of like new age researcher guy who I know who's really cool, but he knew her, he knew Valerie really well. And he painted her in the same light as like, you know, she always happened to be there. Whenever something was going on, she always happened to travel with no, no issues, no money issues. He was always anywhere she needed to be. But um, he speculates that she was sort of

• 3:19:24Speaker 02

  like a spy and, and the, and the type that would maybe sleep with, with somebody for information. And a lot of reasons that these men in particular don't want to talk about her is. You know, I don't need to say it. Maybe something happened. Now they're married. They don't want to go there. Maybe that's why it's this very standoffish thing, which I can get that. But that was his theory.

• 3:19:48Speaker 02

  Because apparently she was really good. I mean, there's one photograph that I know, literally one that exists of her. That's not true. There's one online and there's one that I have in the Puharach archives of her at Lab 9.

• 3:20:02Speaker 02

  And you know, yeah, she was very good looking. So that was this one theory is that she was kind of like getting information. On behalf of who? I don't know. But this, you know, you hear about that. Uh, happening, you know, sleep to that kind of thing. So that was what this guy said who knew her. Well, that was his theory. But um.

• 3:20:21Speaker 02

  The other theory is that she um. Was again, with the same idea of being an attractive. Woman was able to lure in. Uh, individuals to help with funding for certain projects and hey, I'm a part of this thing. You should be a part of this thing. Cause again, she was always on these boards of these sort of weird energy companies and things like that. But um, the really weird thing is, I don't know if you've seen it. There's, there's allegedly an interview of her. On YouTube. So you, you probably know this YouTube account, Eyes on Cinema. Oh, yeah. So anyways, on there, this one day, this was not even that long. It was like a year ago.

• 3:21:02Speaker 02

  This video pops up and it says Valerie Ranson like describes her UFO. Experience. You can go, anyone can go right now and look it up. And I was like, holy, holy shit. Like that's her. I've never seen, again, there's one picture. And I'm like, oh my, this is crazy. So in the interview, it's really bizarre. She tells us really weird. And the thing is it checks out of what we know from her and most of the information is from the forbidden science books, John Vale stuff. And you know, she says, I was going to school in Northern Illinois in this interview. She says she moved to Houston. We know Jacques met her in Houston. Uh, the point is everyone I know.

• 3:21:45Speaker 02

  Who knew Valerie, I said, oh, this is great. A video exists of her now. Sent it to them. Hey, look, here's Valerie. Like, can you believe this? Every, no, that's not her. No, that's definitely not her. I knew her. That's not her. And I said, well, that doesn't make sense. Cause like everything she says in the video checks out to what we definitely know. Nope, not her. Not one person. And even this-

• 3:22:07Jesse Michels?

  Do you think they were like, they just again, didn't want to-

• 3:22:10Speaker 02

  I don't know, but it's just, it goes back, she's so, she's the biggest enigma in this whole world. Every single one of them know, oh, man, what, you know, anyone who thinks that's her is an idiot. And but everything she says checks out. And in the video, she tells this crazy story about how she had a UFO experience when she was a kid in college and her friends saw it. And then after that, she continued to have bizarre sightings of UFO sightings happen to her in her life many times. And then some guy, you got to see the video. She says this guy shows up one day to her job. And is like, hey, you know, I want to take you, I can't remember exactly that what she says, but basically this very mysterious guy shows up.

• 3:22:55Speaker 02

  They go out to lunch. And he's like, you know, I know that you've had these UFO experience and he spouts all this stuff about her that no one would otherwise ever know. Like stuff about her family. I know you've had, you had this UFO experience at this time in this location. So she's shocked, right? So then she says she gets into the car with this guy because he's driving her home or something. And he gets a tape cassette, puts it in the car and the tape cassette starts and it's a voice, a metallic voice. Basically saying, you know, I am an ET. And I'm here on earth on like a humanitarian mission.

• 3:23:39Speaker 02

  And I, we want you to work with us. You're going to be the first

• 3:23:46Speaker 02

  test human to work with us. And, you know, do you, do you accept this position? And, and then she, she, the guy parks and she gets out or whatever. And, and she starts to question, okay, what, what's going on here? Like, was this real? Was this guy trying to like recruit and what? It's, it's, that's her story. And then after that is when all this stuff happens of her getting involved with Puhar. This was like early seventies, she claims this happens. And all this stuff that we know about is, you know, late 76 and 77, 70. So that's her like origin story. But apparently it's not her. According to everyone who knew her, oh, that's not her. That's not the right woman.

• 3:24:32Speaker 02

  That's not even what she looks like. So wild. On the tape recording we have, which is a recorded phone conversation, the voice on that, which is most definitely her, sounds, it's, it's her on this video. It sounds just. Sounds the same. It sounds like that. So it's probably her. Yeah. It's so weird. So that's a rabbit hole in and of itself, but, but basically, yeah, she spent like a good amount of time at lab nine. And she brought Gordon Cooper there. And then she disappeared and everyone who knew her was like, yeah, I have no idea what happened to her. Or they're just straight up, don't want to talk about her.

• 3:25:14Speaker 02

  I don't know. It's really bizarre. She wrote some book that's basically all this like channeled information that she got. Have you read it? No, I've, I've skimmed it, but I think you used to be able to buy it on some odd website, which is now down, but um, it's very, very strange. And um, when I was trying to get in contact with her, I weirdly, this is a crazy story. I got in, I just, this guy got in touch with me completely out of the blue. And this has happened a few times throughout the, the making of this where like someone is like, hey, I heard you got, you have Buharich's archives. I'm really interested in him and what do you have? And we should, we should talk and, and that kind of thing. This one guy weirdly, right around the time I was trying to um,

• 3:26:00Speaker 02

  try to track down Valerie, he reaches out to me. And he's like, same thing. Hey, I know I'm a, I'm a researcher and I heard your name about Puharich and this and that. And he's like, you know, have you heard of Valerie Ranson? And I said, yeah. He goes, oh, would you want to talk to her? Cause I'm actually in contact with her. And I'm like, yeah, sure. And, and so he forwards me an email, which is allegedly from Valerie, which is like, you know, hey, uh, you know, let's talk and this and that. And, and one thing led to another and this guy just completely ghost disappears, right? Never heard from him again. I look him up on Facebook.

• 3:26:42Speaker 02

  And again, I may, maybe I'm crazy and this stuff has gotten to my head, but his Facebook looks like the, the, the quintessential, I'm making a fake Facebook account.

• 3:26:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:26:54Speaker 02

  This isn't me kind of thing.

• 3:26:56Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 3:26:56Speaker 02

  And that, you know, again, I'm very level head that it really like spooked me out. And then years later, we year, this was, we're talking probably tooth, uh, probably like 2016, 17, I'm talking like, you know, not that long ago, like 2021, 20, he reaches back out to me and is like, hey, you know, what's going on with the film and is there any way I can see it? And hey, did you ever talk to Valerie if you want, I can try to get, and I just never responded to the guy again. It was really strange.

• 3:27:30Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:27:31Speaker 02

  And I tried the email that he had that he claimed was Valerie's, of course, it like, you know, weird.

• 3:27:39Jesse Michels?

  But well, what happened when you emailed?

• 3:27:41Speaker 02

  Oh, no, nothing.

• 3:27:42Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 3:27:42Speaker 02

  It wasn't, it didn't kick back, but I just never.

• 3:27:45Jesse Michels?

  You never got anything.

• 3:27:45Speaker 02

  I never got anything back ever. Yeah.

• 3:27:47Jesse Michels?

  But you think you've located her?

• 3:27:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:27:50Jesse Michels?

  And you're going to try to interview her?

• 3:27:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:27:51Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 3:27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:27:52Jesse Michels?

  Well, I hope you do, man. That would be incredible.

• 3:27:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, there's a lot to get in with, into with her, but that's, that's the gist of it. And then just the fact alone that Kit Green was involved with her back in the late seventies is really strange.

• 3:28:08Jesse Michels?

  So strange.

• 3:28:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:28:10Jesse Michels?

  And.

• 3:28:11Speaker 02

  Early eighties. Yeah.

• 3:28:12Jesse Michels?

  This is crazy. It's so, it's like, there's a woman in the Nixon White House who's claimed she's channeling aliens and also happens to be on the board of all these sort of, you know, spooky science outfits that seem to stem from exotic Tesla, you know, uh, uh, extra low frequency technology. It's.

• 3:28:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:28:32Jesse Michels?

  Really wild.

• 3:28:34Speaker 02

  And what I can say for, again, for a fact is like, in the late seventies, there really was like so much unknown about this potential like radio frequency weapons. And it's on YouTube. There's a whole CNN special which came out a little later. I think it was like 83, but it was kind of detailing all the research that had gone into like, you know, those, those types of weapons and, um, you know, radio towers that can beam a certain frequency that can agitate people and et cetera. So that was kind of like the Wild West in the late seventies there of like, I think people trying to figure out what this is, what can be done with it. And he was just like in, in the middle of that. And, um, you know, there was a lot of people running around researching

• 3:29:19Speaker 02

  that at the time. And I think there was also a lot of research happening of, um, you know, what's the potential of this stuff? What's possible with it? Um, so, and Valerie was again, interested in that and was involved in, in that. So.

• 3:29:39Jesse Michels?

  It's so wild. Um, what are the implications for all of this on modern UFO disclosure, which seems to usually emphasize kind of aerospace contractors, secret, you know, nuts and bolts, weapons, technology, faster than light travel, that sort of thing? What are the implications of the stuff you're looking into for, for that?

• 3:30:03Speaker 02

  I think it's, I honestly, I think it's more of the same that we talked about earlier. I think there's some, there's some truth peppered into a lot of, you know, false going on. And I think that that still happens, you know? I think that's still going on. So, you know, I think the implications are it's just still difficult to navigate.

• 3:30:32Speaker 02

  What's what's real and what is not real, you know? And I think it takes people, you know, like you and and others who are like, really seriously interested in looking into this stuff and talking to people to to kind of like, keep going with it, you know?

• 3:30:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, this is a, I mean, if they're, you know, it's a big puzzle that we're putting together. This is a huge piece that I think is missing for a lot of people, you know, prior to your movie. So I really hope people go check it out. I think it's going to be, you know, make make a lot of waves and update a lot of people's understanding of this whole topic. And I loved it. I thought it was really well made. How can people go find it?

• 3:31:16Speaker 02

  Well, it's going to be for purchase on, you know, iTunes and YouTube and that kind of thing. Yeah, we're gonna do kind of like this release now with Age of Disclosure.

• 3:31:30Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 3:31:30Speaker 02

  We're gonna do like a, you know, you can purchase it for a certain amount of time.

• 3:31:34Jesse Michels?

  A little bundle situation.

• 3:31:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:31:35Jesse Michels?

  Okay, cool.

• 3:31:36Speaker 02

  But there's some interest in in some streaming stuff, so.

• 3:31:40Jesse Michels?

  And anything big that I didn't touch on that I should have had?

• 3:31:44Speaker 02

  Honestly, like, yeah, probably, but.

• 3:31:46Jesse Michels?

  See, I mean, you're you got you're a gift that keeps on giving, man, it's crazy.

• 3:31:50Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, the one thing I was going to mention is this is again, an example of something like very recently, like Bobby Ray Inman, who I know a lot of people are talking about right now. I called him because because he was head of Naval Intelligence, I think, during this exact time that Puharic is doing a lot of space stuff, like late 70s into the early 80s and a lot of ELF stuff. And I just just called him straight up and I introduced myself.

• 3:32:19Jesse Michels?

  How'd you get his number?

• 3:32:20Speaker 02

  I found his number online.

• 3:32:21Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 3:32:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. I kid you not, it's one of those classic white pages sites where it was like a bunch of different numbers and I'm like, God, none of these are ever going to work. And I was like, hello? And it was him. It was one of them.

• 3:32:32Jesse Michels?

  Oh, my God.

• 3:32:33Speaker 02

  And he was pretty nice, but I just straight up was like, hey, have you ever heard, you know, the name Andrea Puharic? Do you know Bob Beck? That because those are the two working at that time. With the space kids and he was like, no, never, never heard the name. And he was really nice. And he was just like, if you come across anything more concrete, you can call me back. And, and, um, but I just figured, huh, maybe he, he knows something because we know, we know naval intelligence at one point, uh, was like a big funder of Puharach, not, not only back in the 50s, but going into, um, the early 80s as well. But anyways, he didn't.

• 3:33:10Jesse Michels?

  That's what Harold Naumgren always said. He said, the, the deepest, you know, kind of core was the O N I, Office of Naval Intelligence. They really knew the most about this stuff.

• 3:33:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. He, he, Puharach was in with them very early on and he continued. In fact, there was a, um, scientist working with Puharach at the, this time, Elizabeth Rousher. She passed away, but they got like this huge grant from the, the O N I. And I was like, you know, looking everywhere to try to find dog. Like she has a huge archive at Berkeley of all of her research. And I, I had someone go there and look and we couldn't find anything. But, but, um, you know, they, they were working with a lot of people then. Um, but yeah, Inman, uh, didn't come up with anything. So.

• 3:33:57Jesse Michels?

  Well, he might have reasons to withhold information as well. He was the, I think, uh, uh, deputy director of the CIA and the director of the NSA at the same time, I believe.

• 3:34:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, something like that. Um, oh, the other thing, yeah, the last thing I'll say is, uh, not unlike Valerie, one of the, uh, space kids who we did an interview because we couldn't find her, but she's on a lot of these tapes. So it was this woman named Sharon. So, um, you know, Sharon with two Rs. And like Valerie, you know, huge question mark. Everyone who knew her then was like, she was this very legitimate, real psychic. Puharach apparently would bring her around, show her off to people in government and academics and just say like, look what she can do. She can channel all this advanced information. He was always working with her. There's pictures of her.

• 3:34:53Speaker 02

  And she just disappeared and everyone who knew her back then was like, you know, it would be amazing if you found her because she they're convinced that she was pulled into a, you know, Stranger Things Montauk project type project where like she was the real deal. And she was sort of pulled into a project like that. That's why she's just kind of like wiped off the face there. There's nothing about her anywhere. Again, I went to the great lengths to try to locate her. Nothing.

• 3:35:21Jesse Michels?

  Does this?

• 3:35:21Speaker 02

  People don't want it like Valerie. They don't want to talk about her when you bring her up. So that was another example of like, okay, maybe there's some reality here because it's just so bizarre and like multiple space kids were like, yeah, I knew her well and I wish we could find her like she was a friend of mine and she disappeared.

• 3:35:39Jesse Michels?

  Just like she was a, the whole program was a feeder maybe into something deeper.

• 3:35:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a lot of conspiracy stuff like that out there, but um, people think that his, yeah, Buhar's his lab was, was that? So.

• 3:35:51Jesse Michels?

  Do you, does this add to your conviction? You know, I think even the makers of Stranger Things say that uh, it's based off of, you know, the Montauk experiments. And I think it's pretty well established that there were some experiments in Montauk, Long Island. Does this add to your conviction that? I don't know. You hear all these things around gifted and talented education, you know, kids who, who have psi abilities.

• 3:36:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:36:16Jesse Michels?

  Being taken into secret national labs facilities, often associated with the Atomic Energy Commission or federally funded research and development centers like Patel Memorial Institute and others. And um, you know, they're, they're told to like, you know, how do you interact with this exotic piece of metal or uh, you know, pick a card or, you know, things like that. Does this add to your conviction that this was happening in sort of a widespread way?

• 3:36:42Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Buharich himself, um, again, if you choose to believe, you know, what he says, he openly says, I helped locate these kids. He talks about it. I mean, he says like, I was the person who would say, you know, yeah, this, you know, this one checks out and they would move on to wherever they would move on to. Um, he talks about helping other countries with this, the UK. He said he traveled to the UK and helped them locate children with psi abilities. So.

• 3:37:16Speaker 02

  It's all that, it's all that gray area, you know?

• 3:37:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and you, you have to ask why this stuff is coming back into vogue. Like you have the telepathy tapes top the podcast charts in the entire country.

• 3:37:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:37:30Jesse Michels?

  And part of me is thinks it's a beautiful, amazing thing. And obviously, in my opinion, I think, I don't think it's all a psy op. I think that some of these autistic non-verbal children are actually, they do have really amazing abilities. It's unfortunate that some of them, like this woman that went on Danny Jones, um, I think are actually faking things. The mother of one of the kids and she clearly was peeking past this blindfold, which is, it's just so sad. And what a poor representation of, you know, again, what I think is an underlying real phenomenon. But does it, does it make you ask questions around, why is all of this stuff coming back into vogue?

• 3:38:13Jesse Michels?

  It feels like if you were to take an index of aliens, psy and psychedelics. Um, and you were to, you were to, you know, in, like, say it's like, you know, synthetic derivatives, like an ETF or something. If you were to invest in this in the late sixties, early seventies, you'd like lose a lot of money into today. But now if you were to invest in these things five years ago or something, it's just feels like they're all taking off. Like, it feels like the, the trend is like, and are you cynical about that? Is, is there, is there, I mean, maybe even to take that ETF analogy further. Are there financial or corporate interests behind the repopularization of some of these things?

• 3:38:56Jesse Michels?

  Cause a part of me is extremely idealistic about them coming out because I do think it touches on kind of deeper architectures and nature of reality. And then there's another part of me where I'm like, it's gotta be coming out now because of some military industrial complex reason or something.

• 3:39:14Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, I think.

• 3:39:17Speaker 02

  I certainly think this film is going to help, you know, put some pieces together about the history of all this stuff. And I think the fact that it's coming out now is interesting because of all this, you know, this resurgence of interest in it. But um, I know what you mean. I don't know. Like, I talked to a kid who claimed he was part of the gate program, and I won't say his name, but now, now he's very vocal online about his involvement in that and what he did. And he wanted to talk to me because it was so similar to the stuff the space kids did that he read about. But I don't know what's, I don't know what to believe, you know, with that. So it's just, I don't know, I'm in the same, I'm in the

• 3:39:57Speaker 02

  same boat as you. I don't know what, what the motives may be. But I think that Puharich was certainly extremely important in this whole world. And the fact that there's never really been something like on him that's out there is exciting for me, obviously.

• 3:40:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:40:16Speaker 02

  I think it'll, I think it'll raise some eyebrows.

• 3:40:20Jesse Michels?

  Think so too. Raise some eyebrows, maybe ruffle some feathers. But you know, you know, you're on the right path if you do that. But um, Greg, this is an honor, man. This is a lot of fun. One of my honestly, like, I love information dense podcasts, especially ones that are uncorrelated from other, you know, I love the, the stories, you know, I love, I saw a thing and I was in the bed and I wasn't, you know, they put a chip in me like that's, it's fascinating. But you, it's always hard to sense make after that. Like, how does this fit into some coherent tapestry of what's actually happening?

• 3:40:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:40:53Jesse Michels?

  I love this interview because you just, to me, again, you know, you, you added this big puzzle piece that seems to be missing as far as this whole story. And obviously begets, you know, 100 more questions. But I really hope everybody checks out the movie. And thank you for being here.

• 3:41:12Speaker 02

  Thank you, man. Appreciate it.

• 3:41:14Jesse Michels?

  Awesome.

• 3:41:24Jesse Michels?

  Head to AmericanAlchemyMerch.com to grab official American Alchemy merch and support the show directly. And while you're there, the Cowboy UFO T is a fan favorite we always keep in stock, along with the Atomic Age design. Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show.

• 3:41:55Speaker 00

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