68. Question Time: Battle for the National Trust, getting over Brexit and boycotting Qatar

What would it take for the UK to have a general election? Would Rory ever rejoin the Conservative Party? How does confirmation bias affect politics? Alastair and Rory answer these questions, plus discuss their insecurities, the legitimacy of Britain's Crown Jewels, protesting the Iraq War, the impact of Brexit on public services and much more. Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, enjoy ad-free listening, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Exec Producer: Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Creve, and of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/rustaspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/rustaspolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:43Rory Stewart?

  Welcome to the Rest is Politics Question Time with me Rory Stewart.

• 1:47Alastair Campbell?

  And me, Yannis Campbell.

• 1:48Rory Stewart?

  And again, small apology, you are in France, which thanks to President Macron, has one of the fastest bits of digital infrastructure in the world. And I am in a very remote part of rural Kenya, where I'm delighted to tell you, I just saw an elephant walk past my window. But that doesn't necessarily mean we're going to have great sound quality.

• 2:03Alastair Campbell?

  Did it have the word Brexit on its backside? Because the elephant in the room, as we know, is Brexit, which I never talk about.

• 2:10Rory Stewart?

  No, never talk about. And that brings us to our first question. We're in fact, following on from your elephant gag. There is a question coming in from David Hardy Harvey, written to me. Dear Mr. Stewart. My wife and I are avid readers of your excellent podcast. I'm delighted to see he's joined in my, my proper, proper refer to what one does in a podcast. Please, could you diplomatically ask your colleague, votre collègue, when he might be recovered from his disappointment over the 2016 Brexit referendum result? He mentions it in almost every edition. So here I am, very diplomatically asking you about the elephant in the podcast.

• 2:46Alastair Campbell?

  When will I get over the disappointment? Well, probably never, because I think it's one of those moments, I've said on the podcast many, many times, when the country of which I am a part and a proud citizen and which I love. I do believe on that day, during the 23rd, 2016, chose its own decline. I think our politics has never recovered. I think one of the reasons that we've been talking so much about what's happening in our politics more broadly is what happened then and the fact that politics hasn't, can't even bring itself to address the problems that it's, that it's given rise to. So if David Harvey is trying to get me to stop banging on about Brexit, I fear he's not going to be, not going to be happy.

• 3:28Rory Stewart?

  Part, part of the price of the podcast, isn't it?

• 3:31Alastair Campbell?

  I fear so, but let's, let's see if we can make that the last mention of Brexit today. And also for our, just so his listeners understand, we're going to try to get through this Q and A without really bothering about the Tory leadership because we'll be covering that off in the, in the, in the main podcast. But I guess this is slightly related and it does mention the B word, but it's a question. It's okay. Fee Posnet, what can I do to stop following politics 24/7? I've been doing obsessively TV, radio, Twitter, books ever since Brexit. And now I'm exhausted and I'm married to a man who just isn't interested. How do you not drive your family's wild?

• 4:10Alastair Campbell?

  Well, my family are actually, I'd say Fiona is in, I mean, I'd probably tell her to stop banging on about it more than she tells me to stop banging on about it, apart from possibly from Brexit.

• 4:20Rory Stewart?

  Well, I actually, I mean, I've had some very interesting conversations recently with my seven-year-old, who's very, very disturbed by Boris Johnson.

• 4:26Alastair Campbell?

  Is this the one who reads the week?

• 4:28Rory Stewart?

  That's the one who reads the week. He is, I mean, he seems to be a big Rishi Sunak supporter, as far as I can gather, and he's very disturbed by Boris Johnson. He asked me this morning, "Why is it that everybody wants to vote for a comedian?", was his question to me. But he's probably the person in the family most interested in politics.

• 4:45Alastair Campbell?

  Happily, happily, you were able to tell him that most people actually don't want to vote for him. It's one of the great myths, that Johnson's popular.

• 4:54Rory Stewart?

  And that he's funny?

• 4:55Alastair Campbell?

  Well, he was funny at a point. When he's, I once saw him do an after-dinner speech, and I probably laughed about three times in 20 minutes, which isn't, you know, it's not as good as Tommy Cooper or Billy Connolly, but it's sort of, you know, it's better than most politicians.

• 5:06Rory Stewart?

  Or Max Miller, the cheeky chappy?

• 5:08Alastair Campbell?

  Or your friend, the cheeky chappy, yeah. But you should, I do think it's one of the, in fact, there's a great, here we are, James Thomas, "How big an issue is confirmation bias with politician, e.g. Johnson supporters saying he is a winner, ignoring recent events, for example, by-elections, opinion polls, etcetera?" I mean, one of the things that Johnson managed to do with all his client journalists, friends, is portray himself as a version of something that he stopped being a long time ago in the eyes of the public. So I don't doubt there are some people who think he's absolutely marvelous, and they don't mind the fact that he's a liar and a lawbreaker. I really do think if Johnson had summoned up the bottle to go for the whole thing, and he'd won, I think actually

• 5:52Alastair Campbell?

  that would have been really, really good for Labour. I think it would be the end of the Conservative Party.

• 5:56Rory Stewart?

  So this idea of confirmation bias, and for those, as we say, readers of the podcast who aren't up on all this stuff, confirmation bias, the tendency to process information by looking for or interpreting information that is consistent with one's existing beliefs.

• 6:10Alastair Campbell?

  Happy to, happy to know that Google is working in Kenya, Rory. Happy to know.

• 6:14Rory Stewart?

  Thank you. So very much the heart of the Vietnam War, very much the heart of, I'm afraid, what happened in Iraq in the early days, which is when you are down a path, and I think governments really do this, you dig in and you listen to all the information. That suits you and you discount inconvenient information. And I saw this in everything. I saw this in British responses to flooding. I saw it in the way that we dealt with COVID in the early days. I saw it in the way that we dealt with Ebola. It is, I saw it the way we dealt with prisons. It's extraordinary, the psychological tendency. That and group think, I think, are the two biggest defining features of any government.

• 6:51Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm. I think also, eh eh, what was interesting about that is that polarization that we've talked about a lot has made it worse because we're so locked into our own tribal thinking of what we think is right. And I, listen, I, this book I'm writing at the moment, I've tried, I'm trying to challenge myself on it in relation to the B word. In that I, I so hate what Brexit has done to the country. I do consciously try to say like, let me try and see this from the point of view of a Brexiteer. Can I see anything? That is positive. And I do find it very, very hard. And I sometimes think, well, is that because I'm just constantly overlooking for the things that I know will support my view. I think we do all do it.

• 7:30Rory Stewart?

  We do, we do. I mean, I had, I had an interesting one of this because obviously like you, I voted remain. But I represented a constituency that was majority Brexit and I had a lot of very good friends, including actually, you know, a close personal friend in Cumbria who voted Brexit. And I would spend many, many evenings and dinners with him in Cumbria, talking this through. And I had a very strong sense by the end of it of why he wanted Brexit. It wasn't in his case economic at all. And I think that's sincere. I think many of the Brexiteers who say we didn't do it for economic reasons and therefore the economic arguments don't matter to them is right. I mean, certainly in his case, it's this idea of sovereignty. It's the idea of being able to make your own mistakes. It's um.

• 8:12Rory Stewart?

  I remember my father was a British colonial officer in Malaya after the Second World War, part of the British Empire. And I remember him relating a conversation that he had with people in the mid fifties where he said, but there are going to be negative economic consequences of leaving the British Empire was the argument that Brits were trying to make to people. And the answer, of course, then was maybe there will be, but we would rather make our own decisions. And that's more important to us than the question of whether or not we're wealthy.

• 8:40Alastair Campbell?

  We're not doing a very good job for your first question, Mr. David Harvey, at getting your brakes, are we? So we'll try, we'll, we'll really try now. Let's try and leave the B word behind us. Now, we had a few questions about what's going on at the National Trust. Natasha Jackson, can you talk about National Trust and what they're fighting? Another question, are you a member of the National Trust? If you are, please vote by this Friday to protect this organisation from infiltration by a right-wing group calling themselves Restore Trust. So I dug into this a bit and I discovered that Restore Trust was founded by somebody called Neil Record. And do you know what Neil Record does in his other life, Rory? He's the chairman of the Institute for Economic Affairs. And do you know where they're based? They're based in 55 Tufton Street.

• 9:24Alastair Campbell?

  And he's also a board member of the Global Warming Policy Foundation, which is another organisation based at 55 Tufton Street, which is the UK's leading climate denial campaign. This Restore Trust started in 2020. And who was one of the first people to take up its cause in the right-wing media? Lord Charles Moore. Record and Moore, board member and trustee respectively of the Global Warming Policy Foundation, the UK's principal climate denial campaign. Now, they pose, Restore Trust poses interested amateurs. They call themselves a grassroots outfit, supported by thousands of National Trust members. But we don't know who funds them, but we have a fair bet that it'll be dark money if it's anything to do with 55 Tufton Street.

• 10:09Alastair Campbell?

  They have lots of online supporters with anonymised accounts such as Save Our Statues. And they spend an awful lot of money on promoted social media. And they claim it's about, that what they're trying to do is to get their candidates onto the National Trust's ruling council. The trust is elected by members. They choose the trustees and the chairman. They, the, this Restore Trust group would appear to have on its board Tory and UKIP donors. Nothing wrong with that, but I think we should know. And they are very, very, as you might expect for 55 Tufton Street, they're very good at spreading disinformation. They get a lot of coverage in The Telegraph, they get a lot of coverage in The Critic, and they get a lot of coverage on a platform like the very right wing.

• 10:52Alastair Campbell?

  I don't know if you've heard of the New Culture Forum, Rory? And the New Culture Forum, which also comes from 55 Tufton Street. So, and then if you dig deeper, Rory, as I've been doing... If you dug a little bit deeper, it seems that what their big interest is, is land, land use policy, data and soft power, because the National Trust owns 1.3% of all land in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. So I am 100 million percent with those who are trying to see off what is in fact a right wing infiltration of the worst possible kind.

• 11:33Rory Stewart?

  Let me come back then. So I'm quite sympathetic towards Restore Trust, despite everything that you've said. And I have talked to many members of them. I'm very interested in National Trust. I'm a member of the National Trust.

• 11:43Alastair Campbell?

  Do you say what I've said is true, though? Do you say what I've said is true?

• 11:46Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, it's true that they are, many of the people who sympathise with them, many of the people who support them, many of the people who give them money tend to be more from the right and the left. And that's because they have a much more traditional vision of the National Trust. It's basically a fight between a much more traditional vision of the National Trust and a, I guess, a more modernised vision of the National Trust. And one of the big things at the heart of it is buildings. So the National Trust, as you say, owns an enormous amount of the landmass of the island. And of course, Scottish National Trust is independent, but a large amount of the landmass of England and Wales. And they also own an enormous amount of historic buildings. So after the, well, really after the First World War, but most sort of dramatically through the Second World War and onwards,

• 12:31Rory Stewart?

  they took over all these very, very big country houses. And initially, most of their focus, or a lot of their focus in the 30s and 40s, were on preserving these houses, presenting these houses. And that has become more controversial because the trust is divided between many volunteers who love these traditional country houses, love telling stories around them, and other members who are frankly quite embarrassed about the country houses and want to focus a lot on telling stories about feudalism, about slavery, about exploitation. So really, this fight started about the way in which these houses are presented to the public. And it started, for example, for the fact that in one particular

• 13:13Rory Stewart?

  country house, there was a very big push to reinterpret the owner of the house and emphasise his sexuality. There's been a lot of emphasis in other country houses on presenting the problems of empire. So if you go, for example, to Powers Castle, which was Clive of India's.

• 13:30Rory Stewart?

  Home, or the fact his family's home, you will see very, very strong attacks on Clive of India, driven obviously by views on British imperial history.

• 13:39Alastair Campbell?

  Which are not unreasonable. I've been listening to Empire and I learnt an awful lot about why, frankly, I learnt a lot about why we probably should be having a much harsher assessment of the role of Clive of India. And I mean, what you were saying to me Rory, is that this is just all fitting into this kind of alt-right, anti-woke campaigning, picking organisations which are, you know, trying to give a broad and balanced view of our history. What is wrong with that?

• 14:08Rory Stewart?

  So if that's what was happening, I would be more sympathetic with you. But actually, I have some sympathy for Restore Trust. I think there have been definitely examples in the National Trust of these buildings being presented in a very simplistic, dumbed-down way. So if you go to Powers Castle, it doesn't really attempt to frame Clive of India. It puts up a couple of slogans. It doesn't really attempt to create the context of his career. It's not actually presenting in an intelligent and thoughtful way why Clive was taken seriously, why the building was interesting. In fact, it often gives the impression, often gives the impression that the buildings are a bit boring, or that they're a bit embarrassing. So I guess, I think we don't need to be dragged into this left or right. I love the National

• 14:50Rory Stewart?

  Trust. I think they do incredible good. But I also think that we're quite lucky to have a new Chair of the National Trust who's begun to respond and recognise that some of the things Restore Trust was complaining about were going on, and has begun to hit more of a middle ground on this.

• 15:05Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I would simply say that I think anything that has some of the characters that I was reading about there, and anything that has 55 Tuffton Street driving the whole thing in their usual opaque, non-transparent way, I am utterly with those who are trying to see them off. And if you want to be on that side of the argument, as opposed to Rory's side of the argument, go to nationaltrust.org.uk, scroll down to AGM and follow the instructions and get the good people, not the bad people inside. Now Dom, our producer, is saying you're going on too long about the National Trust. Please, could you move on? So Rory, talking about Empire and the excellent podcast.

• 15:44Alastair Campbell?

  Fiona, my missus, has been driving down through France, listening back to Back to Empire. And she sent me a message last night saying, can you ask Rory whether he thinks the Koh-i-noor diamond, which Camilla might have in her crown when she's crowned, should be given back to the Indians?

• 16:01Rory Stewart?

  I think not, because the answer is, almost everybody claims it. So it was in India, enters history in India, and then it was taken to Iran. So the Iranians claim it, what was then Persia. Then it was taken to Afghanistan, so the Afghans have a claim on the Koh-i-noor. Then it was grabbed by the Sikh rulers, the Punjab, based in Lahore, which is now Pakistan. And the last Sikh ruler of Punjab gave it to Queen Victoria. So I think the Indians putting in a claim for it is going to find themselves in a lot of trouble for a lot of other countries also claiming it.

• 16:31Alastair Campbell?

  Good, good answer. I shall feed that back. Claire Debenham, how many people would need to take to the streets to force a general election? What do you think Rory?

• 16:38Rory Stewart?

  It's very difficult to know, isn't it? I mean, how many people did you have demonstrating against the Iraq war? And what impact did that have on you?

• 16:44Alastair Campbell?

  Over a million, over a million.

• 16:46Rory Stewart?

  And it didn't change your mind, did it?

• 16:48Alastair Campbell?

  It changed, it certainly changed the debate. It didn't change Tony Blair's mind, no. But I think this is, I mean, well, look, as you know, I'm in Paris. And I was on the, yesterday, talking to somebody on the train who's French. And who was saying that, you know, who lives in Britain, who was saying that if this, if what was happening in Britain right now was happening in France, the streets would be full. It does seem to take an awful lot to get British people so agitated that they take to the streets in, in large numbers. Although somebody did point out, Rory, Helen Rushby, there were 50,000 plus at the Rejoin March on Saturday, but it was not reported on the news.

• 17:32Alastair Campbell?

  Those who didn't vote Leave have been in North for six years now. Seventy percent now think Brexit, oh, sorry, I've gone to back to Brexit, sorry, sorry, sorry. Let's go back to general election.

• 17:41Rory Stewart?

  Okay, here's a question from John Engel, though. Interested to hear your thoughts on Lord King's comments that there isn't enough money to increase taxes on the rich and that no surprise, middle income earners should reshodle the load. Focus on tax havens, corporation tax, recalculating council tax, which I presume is a reference to imposing a property tax, etc. One question for you, Alistair, given that you're somebody from the left, and I want you to honestly answer this question and not cheekily cut this part of the podcast because you don't know the answer to it. What is your best guess?

• 18:13Alastair Campbell?

  Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I'm cutting in here, Rory. I'm cutting in here. I have never asked for anything that's been recorded to be taken out. I think I could point to two occasions where you have.

• 18:23Rory Stewart?

  Okay, go on.

• 18:24Alastair Campbell?

  Carry on.

• 18:25Rory Stewart?

  That was because I was unbelievably rude about a parliamentary colleague of mine, not because I didn't know the answer to your question. Okay, here we are. What would be your guess of which percentage of income tax receipts comes from the top 10% of income taxpayers? What's your best guess?

• 18:40Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, Lord. Well, it's not as high as people might think. I don't know.

• 18:46Rory Stewart?

  What's your best guess? Top 10% best guess?

• 18:48Alastair Campbell?

  What the top 10% pay in tax? I'm going 22.

• 18:52Rory Stewart?

  60%.

• 18:53Alastair Campbell?

  No, I should have known that.

• 18:56Rory Stewart?

  60% of income tax receipts come from the top 10%. What's your guess of what percentage of income tax receipts comes from the top 1%? Of all income tax come from the top 1%?

• 19:06Alastair Campbell?

  Well, hold on a minute. You say within the top 1%, you're talking about the top 1% who pay tax.

• 19:13Rory Stewart?

  So of the top 1% who pay tax, yeah, how much of the total tax take comes from the top 1%?

• 19:19Alastair Campbell?

  I'm going 27.9%.

• 19:21Rory Stewart?

  Good. The top 1%, that's almost right, pay 30% of all income tax revenues. In other words, three in every £10 the government receives in income tax is paid by just over 300,000 individuals. So that I think is interesting. But anyway, back to you, back to you on the question on why is it Lord King's saying that the rich are paying a lot of tax and what else should we be doing?

• 19:42Alastair Campbell?

  I saw Lord King's, parts of Lord King's interview, and honestly, I really didn't want to revisit the B word. But for him to sit there and opine in the way he did as a sort of independent minded commentator about what should be happening now and blather on about Ukraine, etc. Without even being challenged on the fact that he was a big Brexit backer and the damage that has done to the economy. And I think his successor, somebody for whom I have far more respect, Mark Carney, who said last week that you can't put it all down to Brexit, but the fact is, in 2016, our economy was roughly the size, 90% the size of Germany's, and now it's 70% the size of Germany's. So I don't, I've got

• 20:27Alastair Campbell?

  to be honest, I'm not a big fan of Mervyn King. And I just, I just think that we're back to the elephant in the room on this. So I'm not really going to, I don't think we should spend too much time worrying about his, um, about his view. Um, let's just go to a quick break. Okay.

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• 22:44Rory Stewart?

  And welcome back to the Rest is Politics Question Time with me Rory Stewart.

• 22:48Alastair Campbell?

  And me Alastair Campbell. Right, there's some lots of questions on education this week. Mrs. Hall, H O double L. Nine out of 10 schools, according to The Observer, will run out of money next year. Please, can you discuss this? What should be done to help schools during the crisis? No one else seems to be covering it. What with the circus going on? I assume that means the Tory leadership. Intel Scout, maybe you guys could talk about the state of the British education system? What could, has to be done to improve it? I heard on LBC that education spending has dropped below 2010 levels. And I think I'm right Rory, that Rishi Sunak had said previously that his big ambition for education was to get the spending up to the levels that it was at pre-austerity. So we're back to your friend austerity.

• 23:30Alastair Campbell?

  I really do think people are underestimating in all this talk about the energy crisis and the cost of living crisis, that the big, one of the big victims is going to be our public services and their energy bills. And for schools, it's going to be an absolute catastrophe.

• 23:44Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, it's not just the energy bills. I mean, it's cost of living in general. It's that the, the costs of paying for almost everything, energy, food, it's what's going to happen to staff costs, it's what's going to happen all the way along. No, I think we're going to be in real trouble. Quite understandably, the public is.

• 24:01Rory Stewart?

  Completely exhausted by austerity, by the state of the public services. As I think I said that I'd seen a figure suggesting 70% of the public is in favour of increases to public spending, even if it involves increasing taxes. But at the same time, the country is in real trouble and we're being punished very hard by the financial markets for borrowing more. So, and I guess Rishi Sunak during the leadership crisis, during the, sorry, the crisis, during the leadership race.

• 24:29Alastair Campbell?

  I think crisis is okay.

• 24:30Rory Stewart?

  Crisis okay, put a lot more money into education. But at some point, there is going to be something absolutely insane that we haven't begun to think about, which is it's not just the schools running out of money. The hospitals are in crisis and that's partly because, partly for Brexit reasons, they're running out of doctors and nurses, but it's also that the costs of healthcare go up every year, demand goes up every year, medical costs go up every year. And I'm just not sure what's going to happen because we've already, as people keep complaining, got the highest tax rates that we've had for 70 years. I don't quite get how any of this gets paid for.

• 25:04Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, a little bit lighter. WM Chris, love the podcast. I'm intrigued by the intro and outro music. What is it? And it's called People, A Diabolical Caper by Luke Richards. Sam Richards, Alistair and Rory, this is a very personal question, Rory, this one. Alistair and Rory, what are your biggest insecurities?

• 25:25Rory Stewart?

  God almighty, I've got a lot of insecurities.

• 25:28Alastair Campbell?

  Have you?

• 25:28Rory Stewart?

  I was thinking about it because I'm in Africa and I'm, I've been looking a lot of animals recently and somebody asked me what my spirit animal was. I mean, obviously I, my seven year old very sweetly said a lion, but obviously I looked at the lion, I realised I wasn't a lion. I've decided I'm, I'm a warthog and I think that suggests quite a lot of insecurities on my part.

• 25:46Alastair Campbell?

  But what are the insecurities Rory? You haven't said what the insecurities are.

• 25:49Rory Stewart?

  What's a warthog? I think a warthog's not, not very good looking. He's, he's, he's generally written off in The Lion King for farting in a smelly way. He's quite prance, he runs around with his tail in the air, got a couple of horns, looks quite tough, but he's basically just a pretty tiny, tiny animal. So I think there's a lot of insecurities there. What are your insecurities?

• 26:11Alastair Campbell?

  What are my insecurities? I, I have an absolute terror, and I mean terror, of Fiona predeceasing me.

• 26:20Alastair Campbell?

  Because I just don't think I could cope either with the practicalities. I think it's obviously the emotional side, but actually I've always had a big insecurity about being utterly impractical. As you know, from the way we record the podcast, that I literally cannot do stuff like that properly. So that's a big one. I also have, I do have financial insecurities. I have a terror of being in debt. And obviously, I have insecurities around, you know, my mental health. And when my mental health is good, I always have at the back of my mind, a little worry that quite soon it might not be. And that's sort of, that's

• 27:00Alastair Campbell?

  an insecurity as well. And I get very, very, I do go through phases where I kind of catastrophize about literally everything. So yeah, that was a very good question from Sam. I like, I like that one.

• 27:11Rory Stewart?

  I hadn't thought on financial insecurity, just, just quickly. I think it's important to understand this also with MPs, because MPs are paid much more than most people in the public. But of course, many of them are paid much less than they feel they earned in the jobs they did before they came into Parliament. Many people take a pay cut to come into Parliament. And they are paid, I guess, less than a GP, less than head teachers in many schools. And I wonder whether financial insecurity isn't one of the things that defines a lot of the bad behaviour. I was thinking back, I said no to a speaking invitation when I was, I think, been an MP for a year or two, to go and address the Tobacco Federation

• 27:54Rory Stewart?

  in Geneva. And they were going to pay me, I think, £15,000 to give a speech. And I said no. But instead of feeling sort of proud of myself, I actually remember sort of brooding about it for, for weeks and months afterwards. I mean, even recently, I was like, oh God, I said no to £15,000, etc. And I think it's, when we look at these lobbying scandals, when we look at these corruption scandals, when we look at all the horrible stuff, whether it's, you know, taking money from oligarchs, or Bernie Ecclestone, or any of this kind of stuff, I wonder whether financial insecurity amongst members of Parliament isn't an explanation of, of some of the problems we're seeing.

• 28:30Alastair Campbell?

  Interesting. I, I, look, Rory, I really wouldn't lose sleep about the Geneva thing. That's a pretty clear one on the moral compass, I'd say. And never lose sight of the royal comers. By the way, while we've been talking, I just popped up on my phone that Keir Starmer has done an interview saying that if England progress in the World Cup in Qatar, he and other members of the front bench will not go because of Qatar's record on human rights. It's quite a big statement, isn't it?

• 28:58Rory Stewart?

  That is a big statement, very big statement. And interesting to see how that plays out because remember Biden took a very, very strong line on Saudi Arabia. And since he's become, and obviously at the moment, this podcast tends to be quite in favor of Keir Starmer becoming Prime Minister. Biden found when he became president that his very strong statements about Saudi Arabia left him in a pretty difficult position when he had to go and ask them to increase their oil production. And I think we may be in a world where we can't rely totally on there being enough democracies out there to back us in every corner. We may be able to have to deal with monarchies and countries we disapprove of.

• 29:31Alastair Campbell?

  And also, we're recording this on the same day that we recorded the interview with former French President Hollande, who was, you know, talking about the fact that the more autocratic countries, we are becoming increasingly dependent on them. And I think, you know, we shouldn't necessarily always define our relations through a single prism. But anyway, I thought that was, I thought that was, that was quite interesting.

• 29:58Rory Stewart?

  Really interesting. And I think it suggests that Labour wants to put human rights at the centre of this. And of course, you did it, didn't you, with Robin Cook and his ethical foreign policy?

• 30:06Alastair Campbell?

  Ethical foreign policy, yeah, absolutely.

• 30:08Rory Stewart?

  But the problem with foreign policy is that that felt in 97, it was happening at a time when the number of democracies in the world was growing very, very fast, when America was this immense superpower. And I think we're now moving into a world, a brutal world with Ukraine and Russia, with China, where we're going to have to find allies in places which feel uncomfortable to us if we're going to win what's likely to be a prolonged global conflict.

• 30:34Alastair Campbell?

  Charlie.

• 30:37Alastair Campbell?

  What would it take for Rory to rejoin the Tory party? And what would it take for Rory slash Alastair to rejoin the Labour Party? So there's obviously, Charlie's obviously thinking, Roy, that you might be so disaffected with the Tories that you'll come the whole way. I'm doubting that one. So shall I go first? I, I, I feel.

• 30:57Rory Stewart?

  You go first.

• 30:58Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I'd be happy to rejoin the Labour Party. But I'm probably, I've got, I do enjoy the fact that even though you think I'm far too fond of the Labour Party and not strong enough on them on this podcast, I actually do feel I have a greater freedom not being a member to say what I genuinely think. And I, I think it's also, I guess also I do still feel a little bit angry that I was thrown out pretty unceremoniously. I think I learnt about it on Twitter, I can't remember now. But I certainly learnt about it before I got, got a letter. And I was thrown out because I voted Lib Dem in the European elections in protest at Labour's then Brexit policy, which moved closer to my position ultimately.

• 31:43Alastair Campbell?

  So I guess I'm proud enough to say, look, until it's absolutely hundred percent clear that if I did apply, not only would there be no obstacle to that, but actually that would be very, very welcome then, blah de blah. So what about you, Roy? What do we have to do to get you right over?

• 31:58Rory Stewart?

  It's a remarkable parallel, and maybe this is just the way the parties do it. I was thrown out by text message. I was actually in the turbine hall of the Tate Gallery, collecting a prize, this politician of the year in front of all these celebrities. And as I went, walked up.

• 32:11Alastair Campbell?

  I was there, Roy, I was there. You were wearing a kilt.

• 32:14Rory Stewart?

  I was, that's right. I was in my tartan, getting this apologetic text from the chief whip, telling me I'd been fired because I'd voted to try to stop a no deal Brexit in Parliament. And I remember my, one of the local councillors, the chair of my local Conservative Association very kindly resigned in my favour and a couple of the other officers, the association resigned in my favour. But of course, they were then immediately replaced by people who moved very quickly to prevent me from being able to stand again as an MP. I remember one of them saying to me at the Remembrance Day service, which I was reading a lesson at just before the election, that they hoped I understood it, it wasn't anything personal. And I said to them, having spent nearly 10 years campaigning for them up and down in every street of Cumbria, that, that it felt pretty personal to me.

• 32:59Alastair Campbell?

  So would you, would you, would you ever think, do you think you will ever rejoin the Conservatives?

• 33:04Rory Stewart?

  I don't know. I mean, we I would recommend people listen to this interview we did with President Hollande. I mean, it's really interesting. There's a struggle with the fact that he speaks good English, but I'm afraid it's about the standard of my French. But I think one of the things he says in it, which is really challenging to you and I, is to say you should not write off the importance of the parties, that actually he feels that France suffers from not having political parties like Labour and the Conservatives, that they play a moderating role, and that going to a system where everybody does their own thing is very dangerous. He had this lovely phrase, didn't he? He said, you don't want to be, what was it? On Povid d'Enchâne, was it was a sort of a man of destiny. He believes in organisation and believes

• 33:46Rory Stewart?

  in parties, is sceptical about the idea of the kind of individual hero politician. And I think there's a sort of wisdom in that. In fact, in some ways, one of the things that I am angriest with Boris Johnson and the ERG and the extreme Brexiteers about is destroying the Conservative Party as it used to be, which was a broad coalition that stretched from left to right and somehow contained within itself the ability to manage this kind of discord and try to provide a kind of moderating force.

• 34:15Alastair Campbell?

  So I'll try again. Does that mean you will never rejoin the Conservatives or you might?

• 34:22Rory Stewart?

  If I had a one nation leader who I was really proud of, you know, there are people still in Parliament who I really admire. There's a woman called Gillian Keegan I really admire. I have a friend called Alex Chalk who I like very much. I mean, there are there are people there who I think I could be proud of and get behind, but at the moment I'd find it very difficult.

• 34:42Alastair Campbell?

  Julian Mitchell, did I hear correctly? Steve Baker on Sky News threatening that the eurosceptics will bring down any prime minister that does not bend the Northern Ireland Protocol. How emboldened are the ERG and who are they really threatening?

• 34:57Rory Stewart?

  Well, that is, I think, just follows on very neatly from the last question and all this talk about coalition. So a lot of things we Complain about, which is the domination of the two-party system and the domination of the whips, had an advantage, which is it allowed governments to deliver budgets, allowed governments to hold their majorities. If they had a big majority, they could rule. And what's now happened is that the Conservative Party isn't a party anymore, split into a lot of factions. In fact, we had a good question from somebody who's trying to challenge me, I'm not going to obviously answer this, but Joel Gliford says, "Question for Rory, you said quite a few times last week that the Conservative Party was not really one party, but a coalition of 12 distinct factions. Could you define or characterize these for us?" Obviously, nobody's going to want to listen to me define the 12 factions in the

• 35:41Rory Stewart?

  Conservative Party, but one of those factions is obviously the ERG, and that threat is very, very dangerous. What's essentially happening there is yet again, a relatively small group of people. And during the Brexit votes, when they were trying to destroy Theresa May's softer Brexit deal, they were down to about 27 or 30 people were able to hold the entire party, the government and the country hostage. And Steve Baker is directly responsible for triggering the leadership challenge against Theresa May. He also moved to bring down Boris Johnson. He also, I think, I don't know whether he was, but there were certainly people in the ERG who moved against Liz Truss. So they are an extraordinary force. And one of the reasons that Suella Braverman, who really was a pretty much an

• 36:25Rory Stewart?

  unknown figure a few weeks ago, you know, she was Boris Johnson's Attorney General, but not somebody that anybody thought was heading for high office, is now likely to get a senior cabinet position because she's believed to have the support of the ERG. And when she resigned from Liz Truss's cabinet, that was actually one of the things, I think, that really triggered Liz Truss's departure. So it's odd how little groups of 30 people in modern politics can hold the whole thing to hostage.

• 36:49Alastair Campbell?

  Right, Rory, we're going to wrap up now. Last question. Martin Edwards, you've got 10 quid each to spend on a festive present for each other. What will you buy? Now, I've got mine, I've worked mine out.

• 37:03Rory Stewart?

  Oh blimey, okay. Gosh, that's a really good question.

• 37:06Alastair Campbell?

  Shall I tell you?

• 37:07Rory Stewart?

  Go on then.

• 37:08Alastair Campbell?

  Shall I tell you what I'd buy you?

• 37:09Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 37:10Alastair Campbell?

  My Albanian barber, Alex Palucci,

• 37:15Rory Stewart?

  Yep.

• 37:15Alastair Campbell?

  Never charges more than a tenner for a haircut.

• 37:18Rory Stewart?

  Oh brilliant, yeah, yeah.

• 37:19Alastair Campbell?

  And Rory, both President Ollon and I commented today that you look like a sort of brown haired version of Boris Johnson. This is not a good look. You need a haircut and I will happily give you a tenner. You can, when you get back to England, you can go and see Alex. He'll give you a nice, nice tidy cut.

• 37:38Rory Stewart?

  That's terrific. I saw a guy actually who was advertising this. He is called, I, I used to go to this barber. He was called, it was called a West End Cuts for East End Prices. Now here's what I'm going to buy you. I'm going to buy you a pair of Marino's Cycling Socks for eight pounds ninety-five.

• 37:55Alastair Campbell?

  Nice. Thank you. Thank you. I can wear those with the new, new European cycling top, which just arrived in the post yesterday, thereby plugging a newspaper and a sponsor of the podcast.

• 38:11Rory Stewart?

  Very good.

• 38:11Alastair Campbell?

  Lovely to talk to you.

• 38:12Rory Stewart?

  All right. I'll say bye-bye.

• 38:13Alastair Campbell?

  Bye-bye.

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