50 Simon Sinek: Why Leaders Eat Last

Simon Sinek is the mastermind behind Start with Why. His latest work, Leaders Eat Last, is another masterpiece on the topic of leadership. On this episode of the School of Greatness podcast, Lewis Howes and Simon go in-depth on the most pressing concerns for those seeking to create amazing, un-paralleled results with their lives and teams. Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 50 with Simon Sinek.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  What is upgrades? And thanks so much for tuning in today. We've got a special guest on today. His name is Mr. Simon Sinek. And some of you may recognize him from his book, Start with Why? And he is one of the most watched TED Talk speakers of all time with his video called, How Great Leaders Inspire Action. And if you haven't seen that video, make sure to check that out. It's linked up on the show notes over at LewisHowes.com. But I'm very excited about this episode because we're talking about leaders eat last is for those who want to feel they and their work matter. And for those who want to inspire others to feel the same.

• 1:18Lewis Howes?

  I'm very excited to talk about this. We dive into a few very important things. One, towards the very end, which kind of stumped Simon for a second. And I'm excited to have you guys hear about it. What I really wanted to learn about, we go into a lot of the stuff on leadership and why leaders eat last and the importance of this, how that all began, where it came from. We talk about ego and conceit, where most people get it wrong about ego and leadership. But then towards the end, we talk about leadership and family and marriage and kids. And I asked him an important question.

• 1:56Lewis Howes?

  I thought, I thought to ask him, do you think you can achieve a huge mission in life and and change the world and inspire the world with a family while taking care of a family, raising a family and being there for one other person? Can you fully lead the world on a huge mission? And his answer was pretty interesting. So make sure to stick around all the way to the very end to hear what Simon says. I'm very excited about this one. And let's go ahead and jump right in.

• 2:32Lewis Howes?

  What's up guys, very excited about today's episode. We've got Simon Sinek in the studio. What's up man?

• 2:37Simon Sinek?

  How you doing?

• 2:38Lewis Howes?

  Doing great. And this is actually the first time we've met in person.

• 2:41Simon Sinek?

  It is.

• 2:41Lewis Howes?

  Although we might have met at Summit Series a few years ago on the ship or something like that.

• 2:45Simon Sinek?

  I think I remember you amongst the other thousand people I met.

• 2:47Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. But I've obviously heard of you from your hugely successful TED Talk, which everyone talks about, where you talk about start with why. And I remember watching it and I was like, wow, man, that makes sense. Makes a lot of sense. A few years ago, whenever that was. And I think it's one of the top 10 or 5 most watched TED Talks of all time, which is pretty powerful. I'm assuming there's been hundreds of them, especially TEDx Talks. So congratulations.

• 3:12Simon Sinek?

  Thank you very much.

• 3:12Lewis Howes?

  On all of your success.

• 3:13Simon Sinek?

  Thank you.

• 3:14Lewis Howes?

  And you've got a new book out, which is Leaders Eat Last.

• 3:19Simon Sinek?

  Indeed.

• 3:20Lewis Howes?

  And I want to talk about this.

• 3:21Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 3:22Lewis Howes?

  Because when you go on an airplane, which you go on many, they always say, make sure to put your own mask on first before you assist others.

• 3:31Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 3:32Lewis Howes?

  Now, why do you say leaders should essentially put their mask on second? And save someone, sacrifice your life, the most important miracle is you in the world, and sacrifice it to give to others?

• 3:47Simon Sinek?

  It's not quite, that's not quite what it means. It doesn't mean like, you know, give up your life necessarily, though sometimes it does, so that others may survive.

• 3:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 3:57Simon Sinek?

  But it's when it counts to sacrifice your interests so that others may survive, or that so others may succeed. That's what it's about. And sort of the closest analogy I can, I can give you is like a parent, right? A parent feeds their child before they feed themselves. Now, you would say that's ridiculous. You have to eat. You have to be fed. If you're not fed, then you won't be able to raise. That's kind of not how it works.

• 4:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 4:23Simon Sinek?

  We feed our children first. And the title actually came about while I was doing the research.

• 4:31Simon Sinek?

  And I had a meeting with a three-star general in the Marine Corps and was doing a bunch of research with the Marines and asked him, you know, what makes the Marines so good at what they do? And he said, officers eat last. And it's not just an idea, it's true. If you go to any chow hall on any Marine base, anywhere in the world, you will see them line up in rank order, most junior person first. And it's not in any rulebook and no one tells them they have to do it. Really? Uh, uh, it's just what happens. And at West Point as well? Um, I don't know. I can't speak, I can't speak for the Army. I only know about this from the Marines. Marines only got you. Um, they may, but I just don't know. Right.

• 5:14Simon Sinek?

  Um, and so, like, again, it's not in any rulebook and it's, nobody tells them to do it. That's just what happens. It's just how it done, it's just how it's done. And the reason is for how they view the concept of leadership, which is we, very often in the business world, see leadership as, um, um, something to achieve, um, and we see it as the person in charge. They view leadership as, um, an, an honor and a responsibility to others. So for example, if you visit OCS, which is, um, officer, um, what is it? Officer, I always forget it, officer cadet, school, no, whatever it is, it's where the, OCS is where they select their officers. Got you. Train their officers. You will, you'll never hear this language. You will never

• 5:57Simon Sinek?

  hear these Marines say, I am a leader of Marines. I believe I have what it takes to be a leader of Marines. I aspire to be a good leader of Marines. A leader, I see, look, I even screwed it up. You'll never hear them say, I am a leader. I aspire to be a good leader. I believe I have what it takes to be a leader. You'll never hear those words. What you hear is, I'm a leader of Marines. I believe what I have it, what it takes to be a leader of Marines. I aspire to be a good leader of Marines. In other words, they don't even say, I am a leader. Like, we in the business world say, I'm, I'm a leader. In the Marines, they say, I'm a leader of Marines. That's just how they say it. In other words, even in their vernacular, the concept of leadership is a responsibility to others.

• 6:38Simon Sinek?

  And it's and it's an amazing thing. Here's the best part. Especially when this happens in the field. And I know I've heard of stories where this has happened in the field. Where whoever's in charge eats last and actually goes without food. Because he had his men eat first. And and then they get out into the field. And all the men will bring a little bit of food and make sure that their leader gets fed.

• 7:01Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 7:02Simon Sinek?

  And that's what happens. When our leaders look after us, we look after our leaders. And that becomes the symbiotic relationship.

• 7:09Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. So what do you think it takes to become a leader then? What type of qualities do they possess?

• 7:14Simon Sinek?

  Um, you know, I I love how this sort of everybody writes a book or an article about sort of.

• 7:18Lewis Howes?

  Ten ways.

• 7:19Simon Sinek?

  You know, the qualities of leader. You have to have charisma. You have to have, you know, vision. You have to have. Yeah, sure. Some some are better than others in those kinds of things, you know. Uh, some of those things I think are very superficial.

• 7:34Simon Sinek?

  The depth of leadership. Um, I believe there's only one quality. And and that's courage. It's the courage to put yourself after others. It's the courage to sacrifice. When your life might be more comfortable, more profitable, easier, better. Uh, and yet, when it counts, you choose to sacrifice those things so that others may succeed or gain. Um, just just like being a parent. You know, if you don't have kids, kids are really expensive. And if you choose not employees are really expensive. If you choose not to have children, you can get a bit of car. You can get a bigger house. You can go on better vacations. You can get a nicer hotel room.

• 8:17Lewis Howes?

  More time.

• 8:18Simon Sinek?

  More time. But if you choose to have a child, you. Makes all those things more difficult.

• 8:22Lewis Howes?

  You can't be as selfish.

• 8:23Simon Sinek?

  And there's certain sacrifices.

• 8:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:25Simon Sinek?

  And I think I think when it sort of it's funny when. The decision to have a baby is is the wrong decision. Having the baby is the easy part. You know.

• 8:35Lewis Howes?

  Eighteen years.

• 8:36Simon Sinek?

  It's the fun part, right? Right. Nobody should ever decide if they want to have a baby or not. You know, what they should is decide. If they want to raise a child.

• 8:45Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:46Simon Sinek?

  And it's the same for leadership. It's not, you don't decide to be the leader. You don't decide you want to be in charge. It's do you decide that you're going to commit to a lifetime of service to others? It's kind of what it boils down to. And that's why, you know, not everybody's qualified to be a leader. It's not that everybody's, it's not, it's nothing to do with intelligence or charisma. It's because that decision to put others before yourself, that's hard. You can get your head cut off, you know, I mean, you know, if you speak out, you know, for the good of others, you could get fired. But what you might do is give courage to others to then, to follow what you started. But you might lose your head.

• 9:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly. It's tough, you know, I think about kids every now and then, and I feel like I'm too selfish right now to have kids. Because I love what I'm doing in my life and my time and my energy. Doesn't mean I don't want kids.

• 9:37Simon Sinek?

  It's nothing to do with children. It's not that you, it's nothing to do with whether you want kids or don't want kids. It's that you don't want to raise a child right now.

• 9:42Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 9:43Simon Sinek?

  Exactly.

• 9:43Lewis Howes?

  The energy, I mean, I think it would be the most amazing thing in the world, but.

• 9:46Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. They say the best, they say the best birth control is other people's children.

• 9:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Hearing screaming babies on airplanes is the best birth control.

• 9:55Simon Sinek?

  It's like, I love children everywhere except on planes.

• 9:58Lewis Howes?

  Now, I want to talk to you about a couple of things. One, vulnerability.

• 10:05Lewis Howes?

  Do you believe a leader needs to be vulnerable in order to be a powerful leader? And I know you talk about you're either a leader or you're not a leader. There's no such thing as a good leader.

• 10:15Simon Sinek?

  Well, I mean, look, of course, there are variations in leadership, but I've sort of given up the, for the large part, this idea of, you know, good and bad leaders, you know? I think everybody has the capacity for leadership, everybody. And by the way, leadership has nothing to do with rank or position. You can be the top of the organization and not be a leader. And you can be at the bottom of the, of the organization and absolutely be a leader. It's the choice to look after the person to the left of you and the person to the right of you. At, in an, in an organization, if you're, also have authority, that's what rank gives you, then it means you can look after others at scale. But it has nothing to do, you know, with, with leadership, per se. But I believe, I believe everyone has the capacity for leadership.

• 11:00Simon Sinek?

  But not everybody has the courage to choose to do it. Which is why.

• 11:08Simon Sinek?

  There are few good leaders, there are few real leaders.

• 11:10Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. Now, are those great leaders that you talk about or that you believe in?

• 11:14Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 11:15Lewis Howes?

  Do they express the qualities of vulnerability often? Or do you think it's showing weakness?

• 11:20Simon Sinek?

  No, no. There's a great irony, right? Which is, which is more than anything else, the homo sapiens, sort of the social, you know, the human being, we're social animals. And more than anything, we crave the feeling of belonging. We crave the feeling of being safe amongst our own. You know, this is why, you know, if you go to an event and you're by yourself and everyone's a stranger there and you sort of feel uncomfortable, but if you see one familiar face that you've met this person before, and you may not even like them, you may not even know them, but you recognize them, you will make a beeline to them, be like, hey, you know? For this very simple reason, is it makes you feel safer, right?

• 12:02Simon Sinek?

  You know, you very often see neighborhoods form around, you know, common experience or common backgrounds or, you know, race or religion, things like this, is because we want to be around people who quote unquote, kind of get us, you know? It makes us feel safer.

• 12:18Simon Sinek?

  And so, this is, this is the core of why homo sapiens, human beings have been successful as a species, which is when we form trust, when we form trust, we're willing to fall asleep at night with the absolute confidence that someone else will watch out for danger for us, right?

• 12:35Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 12:35Simon Sinek?

  Right? And if we don't trust somebody, then we won't fall asleep at night, and ultimately the entire organization is weaker because of it, right? So when we trust each other, we're more likely to work together to, you know, to protect ourselves from outside dangers or seize opportunities.

• 12:51Lewis Howes?

  And does this vulnerability create trust?

• 12:53Simon Sinek?

  Correct. Because when we willingly demonstrate vulnerability, what we're demonstrating is trust. So, you know, let's just stick with the falling asleep analogy. That I would fall asleep demonstrates to you, my tribe member, my colleague, that I'm putting myself in a position of great peril, vulnerability. I cannot defend myself, I will be asleep because I know that you look after me, right? And, and the same goes for leadership.

• 13:21Simon Sinek?

  I was walking down Pennsylvania Avenue with a guy from Palestine, true story, and we stopped in front of the White House. And we're standing there looking at, you know, the White House, and he says to me, The president of the United States lives there. And I'm like, it's the White House.

• 13:40Simon Sinek?

  He's like, no, no, no, the president of the United States lives right there. What he was saying is, in democracies, we trust our leaders, and more importantly, our leaders trust us. Yes, we all know there's tons of security around the White House, but it's not visible. There's no razor wire, there's no guys walking around with submachine guns, there's no signs that say, you know, if you come here after 6:00 PM, shoot to kill order, you know, like, it doesn't, you could actually climb the fence, I mean, it's not a very daunting fence. And it's, in other words, the leader of our country lets us come right up to his house, where he actually lives, like, it's not a fake, he actually lives there, right? And we let him, they let us come up to the house. Right. If you go to a dictatorship, you know, the people aren't allowed within miles of the leader's house,

• 14:24Simon Sinek?

  the quote-unquote leader, you know, the dictator's house. You know, there is razor wire, there are tanks, there are guys with machine guns, and, and so there is no expression of vulnerability, right? So, yes, it is absolutely essential for leaders to demonstrate vulnerability, because that vulnerability must be mutual. Not only if you fall asleep, well, I promise to protect you, but if I fall asleep, I trust that you will protect me. And so this goes not only physically, but also emotionally. The leader who acts like they have all the answers, by the way, they don't, you know, leaves no opportunity for others to help. And so people don't. And it's not because people are difficult or don't want to help, it's because they've been given no opportunity to, because apparently, the guy knows it all, right?

• 15:08Simon Sinek?

  And this was one of the biggest lessons I learned in my own, my own life, which is, when I struggled most in my life, was when I thought I had to have all the answers, because I was in charge, quote-unquote. And if I didn't, I had to pretend that I did, I had to demonstrate confidence, even if I didn't have any, right? The reality is the total opposite. It's when you admit that you don't know something, that other people will come to your aid, not because you're vulnerable, but not because they want to intimidate you, it's because you said you didn't know it, and they do, and they're like, I know that, I can totally do that for you. Like, you can, you know? If you pretend that you know it, it's not that people don't want to help, it's that they just didn't think you needed it. And so the opportunity to express vulnerability is paramount to the building of trust. Doesn't happen overnight, like any relationship.

• 15:52Simon Sinek?

  I mean, think about Boy Meets Girl, Girl Meets Boy, you know? First, you know, you go for a drink and everybody sort of shows off and, you know, puts their best face on and then it's, it's as you get to know the person, so the walls come down a little bit, you know, the fears come out, you know, the insecurities come out and the things you don't like start to come out and, you know, and it's, and it's, and in time, you start to build a relationship. The relationship between leader and follower and follower and leader is exactly the same thing. It is a relationship and it is, it is, it takes time to nurture and look after. So how does someone in the- And it's born out of love. Love, love, I mean, and I'm not being, I'm not being cheesy. No, I completely understand. I mean, there's an amazing piece of footage.

• 16:36Simon Sinek?

  So there's a soldier who was just recently awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, which as we know is the highest medal in our land. He was embedded with a company of Marines and something very bad happened, you know, the Marines were overrun and he was carrying out the wounded to, to get them out of, out of the danger. And one of the medevac helicopters that came in to take away the wounded, sheer coincidence, one of the medics had a GoPro camera on his helmet. So there's this footage of this soldier carrying a Marine on his shoulder, lays him on the

• 17:15Simon Sinek?

  floor of the helicopter, bends down and kisses him on the forehead and then walks away and goes back to rescue more. It's all caught on, you can watch it on YouTube. Wow. Right? Now, that's not love. I don't know what is. Right? He bends down and kisses him on the forehead as if to say, I got you, we got you, you know? It's like, you know, it's what a parent does to their child. They kiss them to say, it's all right, it's all right. You know, when somebody's in the hospital, when someone's in pain, we touch them, we put our hand on their hand, we put our hand on their, on their leg and we, we, you know, we, we rub them and we say, don't worry, you'll be okay. Like that sense of touch, that is the greatest expression of love ever there, if there ever was.

• 17:56Simon Sinek?

  And this, this, this opportunity, this demonstration of vulnerability, this is a soldier in combat. You know, most people don't realize this, but in the military, crying is just fine. It's just fine. You know, it, it, it's-

• 18:10Simon Sinek?

  There, I mean, and the Marines will call it often, they call it the intangibles. But, you know, every now and then you will get a Marine who will admit that the feeling they have is love. It's brotherly love, it's sisterly love, it's love for each other and it's love for core. It's love for my brothers and sisters and my family. I mean, that's, that's what it is. It's love. It is, it is the feeling. And I think that you have to build love, you have to earn love, you have to work towards love for the most successful, profitable, and by profitable, I don't necessarily mean money, but most sort of greatest opportunity for success, relationships. You know, you, you work towards love when you meet someone. You, you don't get it immediately and there's nothing you can say or do that will make it happen.

• 18:50Simon Sinek?

  You earn it over time and you will screw things up on the way and it is hard and it is hard and it is hard. But if you're both willing, at some point in some strange weird way, it's as if you like wake up and press a button, it's as if you sort of like hit this belief button and instantaneously like, oh my God, you wake up and you're like, I, I'm in love, I don't even know how it happened or how I got here, but I'm in love. And then you find yourself being willing to do the most crazy irrational things because you are in love. In other words, irrational things like give up your comfort, give up your safety, give up your food. Move across the country, give up your food and eat last. It is, it is something that evolves.

• 19:26Lewis Howes?

  You'll do anything.

• 19:27Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, so the, the concept of eating last is not something that happens overnight. It is something that you work towards because it's based on trust, right? So yes, vulnerability is king.

• 19:38Lewis Howes?

  Okay, I want to think there's a many places, but I'm gonna start with ego and love. So, you know, some people may think about leaders who have a big ego. And there's a lot of leaders who do have a big ego.

• 19:49Simon Sinek?

  I, I think they all do.

• 19:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 19:51Simon Sinek?

  There's nothing wrong with that.

• 19:53Lewis Howes?

  Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but does that moment defines a great leader as someone who is egotistical, believes they have it all figured out? And uh.

• 20:02Simon Sinek?

  That's not what ego is. That's what conceit is.

• 20:05Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 20:06Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 20:06Lewis Howes?

  What's the difference between ego then? Or what is the definition of ego?

• 20:09Simon Sinek?

  Ego is, is belief in self.

• 20:10Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 20:11Simon Sinek?

  Right?

• 20:12Lewis Howes?

  So it's not bad.

• 20:12Simon Sinek?

  So if you only have a, no.

• 20:15Lewis Howes?

  I think some people look at ego as like a negative thing.

• 20:17Simon Sinek?

  That's only because it's, it's misused. I mean, you think about it, if you have the choice to have someone on your team, there's only a finite number of personality types, you know, so you have the choice, there's only three. You can have someone on your team who is not at all confident in their own ability. Or you can have someone who's very confident in their ability and thinks they're better than everyone else. Or you can have someone who's very confident in their ability and doesn't think they're better than everyone else. Who do you want on your team? It's such a stupid question. It's so obvious. Of course, you want the person who's confident in their own ability and doesn't think they're better than everyone else. Right? Sure, because they're always wanting to grow and learn. Well, that's ego. Okay. Okay, they have a strong ego. What they don't have is conceit. Gotcha.

• 21:00Simon Sinek?

  Talk to the Marines. The Marines think they are better than everyone else. They do not think they're better than other Marines. Okay, in other words, a Marine wants a Marine on their team because he's, he was, he learned. They train self-confidence. I mean, that's largely what happens in boot camp. It's not this whole break them down, build them up stuff. It's not that. What they take is people who are selfish, like we all are, you know, we want to prove that we're good enough. And they teach them that they will not succeed without the help of others. And they teach them that they're capable of more than they thought they were. And they learn confidence, but they do not learn conceit. And so, yeah, to be a leader, you have to have ego because you, you have to have, what you don't want is conceit. In

• 21:43Simon Sinek?

  other words, humility. The greatest definition of humility I ever heard was from Bob Gaylor, who was the fifth Master Sergeant of the Air Force. And he said, "Do not confuse humility with meekness." Humility is being open to the ideas of others. Right? So when people say, "Oh, no," you know, you pay them a compliment, they're like, "No, no, that's not, no, that's, that's meekness. That's faking it." I mean, that's ridiculous. I've met some remarkable leaders whose egos are so outsized, I'm amazed they can fit in the room. Their heads are so big. But when you say, "Sir, I have an idea," they go, "Let's hear it." And they don't want to debunk you and prove themselves right. They genuinely want to hear your ideas.

• 22:24Simon Sinek?

  Even though, even though they think they are so smart, they are smart enough to know they don't know everything. And they are smart enough to know that it's the solution from someone junior or someone from the outside that may be the thing that they're looking for or that they neglected to see. These people have huge egos. What they lack is conceit. And so, yeah, I believe ego is very important.

• 22:47Lewis Howes?

  It's important.

• 22:47Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 22:48Lewis Howes?

  Belief in self.

• 22:48Simon Sinek?

  And belief in self. And by the way, you hope followers have ego. You hope leaders have ego, you know? You want everybody to have ego. You want everybody to have self-confidence. You want everybody to believe that they're capable of more than they thought. And by the way, the only way you'll ever learn that you're capable of more than you thought you were is if you have someone who's got your back. A teacher, a parent, a guardian, a leader, a coach, a boss. It doesn't matter. It's someone who said, I will not let you fall. I will not let you get hurt. A parent. Ride the bicycle. I can't do it. Yes, you can. I can't do it. I will hold the back of the seat. And then we turn around and you realize dad's not holding the back of the seat anymore. And you realize you're capable of more than you thought you were. Dun, dun, dun, dun. Same in everything. It's someone who gave us a chance because they believed in us. They saw something we didn't think we saw.

• 23:33Simon Sinek?

  And they let go of the back of the seat. And if we fell or if we screwed it up, they go, try again. Maybe they let go too soon. You know, it happens.

• 23:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 23:42Simon Sinek?

  It's not a perfect science.

• 23:44Lewis Howes?

  So it's important to have ego to be a powerful leader, but it's also.

• 23:47Simon Sinek?

  It's important to have ego to be anybody.

• 23:48Lewis Howes?

  Okay. It's important to have ego to be anyone. If you want to achieve any goal.

• 23:52Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 23:52Lewis Howes?

  And, but to do it with humility.

• 23:54Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 23:55Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 23:55Simon Sinek?

  And by the way, I'm saying these things in, I'm speaking idealistically.

• 24:00Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 24:00Simon Sinek?

  Obviously, we all have our insecurities.

• 24:03Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 24:03Simon Sinek?

  Even people with huge egos have their dark sides and have their weaknesses.

• 24:07Lewis Howes?

  Insecurities, yeah.

• 24:08Simon Sinek?

  And, and, and again, it goes back to vulnerability, which is, are those people with the big egos willing to tell you or share? And not with everybody. I don't believe in this, like, put it on YouTube, you know, write a blog about, you know, you can if you want. Very often, it empowers others. I know that when I've expressed the things that I struggle with, you know, people are immensely grateful. I get more responses for those postings because A, it demonstrates I'm human. Like, you know, people build up images of you or you build up an image of yourself that aren't true. But it also demonstrates that everyone has a capacity to overcome these things.

• 24:45Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 24:46Simon Sinek?

  But, you know, there are many other things that I don't share publicly, but I do share them with people who I trust.

• 24:52Lewis Howes?

  You care about, yeah.

• 24:52Simon Sinek?

  And, and they keep me safe. You ask my, my team, what's your job? All of the, you know, my team who's closest to me, they'll all say, protect Simon. And they don't mean from, they don't mean from the outside world. They mean. I've expressed vulnerability to them. They know what I'm good at. They know what I'm bad at. They know what my Achilles heels are and and and they want me to be at my best. So we'll work together. We'll block and tackle, you know, where I'm where I'm bad at something, somebody will jump in, you know? And and and the great irony of it is, is I see my job the same way. My job is to protect them, to make sure that that they can work to their greatest potential, you know, not put them in harms way, you know, take risks every now and then and let them fail and let's be okay with that. And like, that's my job. Sure. You know?

• 25:37Simon Sinek?

  Why did you get into this work? I fell into it. I tripped over or something and I woke up, you know, it was like it was an accident. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it was it an experience or something? There are two. There are two. There are two significant events. You know, my books are semi autobiographical. You know, it's not obvious, but Sure. they both are. A Trojan horse. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. And that's why I take my work seriously is because it's deeply, deeply, deeply personal. So I can tell you, there are two defining events that sort of set me on these, one that set me on the path and one that sort of kicked me in the ass. The first one was where Start With Why came from, right? My story is not that different from many others.

• 26:22Simon Sinek?

  I started a small business, you know, I was doing strategic marketing consultants, you know, consulting. It was great. It was exciting. And in my fourth year, I lost my passion for what I was doing and struggled like you have no idea. I falsely This is in the US? This is in the US, yeah. I falsely believed I had to have all the answers. And if I didn't, I pretended I did. Sure. You know, there's nothing wrong with the quality of work. Our company did good work. We had amazing clients. You know, by all outside appearances, I should have been very happy with my life. I was making a living. I was my own boss. The American dream, right? Except I hated wake up in the waking up in the morning and I didn't want to do it. And I lost confidence in myself and refused to tell anybody, which means that nobody came to my aid, which made it worse.

• 27:03Simon Sinek?

  And I was lonely and probably if I had to diagnose myself depressed, you know, it was a dark period. I was paranoid. I was convinced I was going to get evicted from my apartment. I don't know why, but I was, you know, I just, I, I, I became very isolated. And there was, thank goodness, a confluence of events that came together that helped me see this pattern, this, this naturally occurring pattern that exists in biology, that every single organization on the planet, even our own careers, always functions on these three levels, what we do, how we do it and why we do it. And that's when I realized I have to have all three. I knew what I did. I could tell you how I did it, but I couldn't tell you why. I became obsessed. And it restored my passion to levels that I'd never experienced before. It just was amazing, a beautiful thing.

• 27:48Simon Sinek?

  Once you figured out your why. Yeah, once I figured out my why, and more importantly, helped others how to figure out theirs. So as we do and we discover something beautiful, we tell our friends. So I told my friends, I mean, that's what we do. You see a great movie, you tell your friends to go see your, you know, it's like, that's what you do. So told my friends and my friends started making crazy life changes. My friends invited me to their homes to share it with their friends. I would charge people a hundred bucks to find their why. I was just doing it on the side. And I just kept getting more invitations and it just sort of grew very organically. And because I believed in it and because it was so personal to me, it was, it brought me unbelievable joy to do it. And, you know, everything about it, you know, I got invited to do this TEDx talk. Was it 2011? 2009. 2009, wow.

• 28:27Simon Sinek?

  And I found out, you know, it was, it was becoming popular on YouTube, which was nice. And I found out it was put on ted.com, the week it was put on ted.com. I mean, like, I didn't have any, like, nobody called me to tell me, you know? And I never expected it to grow as fast as it did. There's no marketing plan behind it. There's no social media strategy behind it. You know, the reason it's, it's spread so far and wide is because of the generosity of others. It's because somebody chose to send it to somebody who they believed it would resonate. And that's sort of one of the lessons I learned early with this concept of why, which is you show up to give. You know, so many people to show up, show up to, and I've, you know, I've done a few TEDx's and so I've sort of meet the people who are there.

• 29:08Simon Sinek?

  And so many people show up for themselves because of the prestige or because they know that it'll boost their careers, which it does.

• 29:20Simon Sinek?

  They use it as a calling card to sell something. It's, it's, there's a lot of selfish motivations that go into these things, especially now because it is such a powerful medium.

• 29:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 29:31Simon Sinek?

  And it's really hard to still show up and say, it doesn't matter, I'm here for you, I'm here to give. And it wasn't about the audience, it was just about those thirty five, fifty people in the room. And, you know, I always try to tell people, like, if you go look at my TED Talk, the video quality is terrible.

• 29:46Lewis Howes?

  There's like a mic you need to change.

• 29:47Simon Sinek?

  The microphone is like making noise at the beginning, they actually changed my mic in midstream. And yet it becomes one of the most popular TED Talks of all time. In other words, don't worry about the PowerPoint.

• 29:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 29:57Simon Sinek?

  It's fine.

• 29:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 29:58Simon Sinek?

  Like, so you missed the page, the end is not, it's like, it's okay, you know? And so it's terribly imperfect, which I kind of love.

• 30:06Simon Sinek?

  But I'm, I'm fully aware that the only reason that I enjoy any success is because of the generosity of others. That's all. So that was the first watershed event that sent me on this path. Which was this darkness that I had to overcome. And by the way, I did not overcome it by myself. It was the, the love of close friends who came to me and said, you're not okay. And we don't know what's wrong, but we got your back.

• 30:31Lewis Howes?

  How long were you depressed for?

• 30:32Simon Sinek?

  It was, I mean, who, you know, these things, you fall into them, you don't sort of trip into them, you sort of it's a slow. So I can tell you without a doubt, it was probably three months at least. You know, I can tell you, I can remember September to December oh five pretty, pretty vividly. The second event came in August of two thousand and eleven.

• 30:54Simon Sinek?

  So here I am, sort of this whole why thing is moving fast. And I had the opportunity to go to Afghanistan with our United States Air Force. And everything went wrong on that trip. I remember that hearing the story. It was a very intense trip and everything went wrong. And it was the experience I had there that punched me in the face and really taught me what fulfillment means and where it comes from. And that kind of set me on the journey for this next book, this next story, this next chapter in my life. And all of my books are incomplete, you know, because they're stages of a journey, you know.

• 31:38Simon Sinek?

  And, you know, this sort of picks up where Star Wars, why leaves off and it's not finished. I don't know if I'll ever get to the next stage, but it's incomplete. But, you know, I learned, it hit me in the face and I became obsessed with understanding why, why would these remarkable people trust each other with their lives? Why would they give their lives? Like, who does that? You know, who volunteers? The possibility of losing your life, you have a family of kids, so that the guy to the left of you and the guy to the right of you goes home to his or her kids and husband and wife, you know, it's like, I didn't understand it. And my initial conclusion was they're just better people. That was my initial conclusion. They're just better than us and the concept of service in the military attracts them.

• 32:23Simon Sinek?

  I don't know, you know? And the more I started to study and the more I started to learn, I realized it wasn't the people, it was the environment. There's certain environments that can be created in which the natural reaction, so we are reactive animals. If you put us in the right environment, you put us in any environment, we will react to our environments. You know, that's who we are. And so you can take a good person and put them in a caustic environment with toxic leadership and those people are capable of horrible things. Right? Like some of the things that happening, you know, you can be dramatic and talk about Nazi Germany, or you can be less dramatic and talk about, you know, Goldman Sachs. But, you know, in the investment banks, the fact that some of these bankers were capable

• 33:03Simon Sinek?

  of making decisions that often knowingly weakened an economy and ironically their own companies. They terribly tell terribly, terribly selfish behaviors. It's not because they're bad people, it's because the environments in which they work. The natural biological reaction to the environments is selfishness, paranoia, and cynicism. When we are in healthy environments, the natural reaction is trust and cooperation. And so that's what I learned, which is more often than not, those in the military find themselves in the right kind of environments in which trust and cooperation naturally thrive.

• 33:43Simon Sinek?

  Most corporate environments, strangely, most corporate environments are not. And this is not some case study thing. It's not like I went around and looked at the best companies. The way I came to this realization was I went back to the Paleolithic era and said, "Okay, Homo sapiens has only been on this planet for 50,000 years. Why did we survive and all the other hominids die? We coexisted with some of them, you know? What is it that we were capable of or what did we possess? And it's not just our bigger brains, you know? Punch a guy in the face with a big brain, he's the one who falls over, you know? So it's like, there could have been very strong animals that could have overwhelmed us, but they didn't, you know? And one of the main reasons we've survived and thrived is because we're social, because we work together, we're tribal. We are naturally tribal animals.

• 34:28Simon Sinek?

  And what I learned was that the natural environments that need to exist for us to trust and cooperate and overcome the dangers that threaten us and seize the opportunities are the exact same conditions that exist in great organizations. And that's why they trust and cooperate. So it's all environmental.

• 34:48Lewis Howes?

  Now, what's your thoughts on emotional intelligence? How important is it for a leader to be emotionally intelligent in how they respond to fears, you know, whatever may be, anxiety, stress, to overcome?

• 35:00Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. So I would, I would call emotional intelligence something different.

• 35:07Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 35:08Simon Sinek?

  Right?

• 35:10Simon Sinek?

  So let's talk about IQ, like sort of intelligence, intelligence, right? I would equate intelligence with speaking, right? I'm going to tell you smart things.

• 35:19Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 35:20Simon Sinek?

  Look how smart I am, right? Don't get me wrong, really valuable. You kind of want smart people to tell you smart things. We're really glad that sort of Marie Curie kind of told us what she thought, you know? It's like, we're kind of glad that Alfred Nobel said something, you know? So there's nothing wrong with speaking, right? But intelligence, I equate to speaking, right? EQ, emotional intelligence, I equate to listening.

• 35:43Simon Sinek?

  Right? And, um, and so effective communication, which is what we as social animals require, is a combination of speaking and listening. Now, we're all pretty good at speaking and we all like to speak. But you really, we really have to learn to listen and listening is not the same as hearing, you know? Listening is not even hearing all the words that are spoken.

• 36:08Lewis Howes?

  What they're not saying.

• 36:09Simon Sinek?

  Right. Listening is, is, is working hard to understand the meaning of what is being spoken. And so when you talk about fear, anxiety and all of these other things, that's what listening is. And I think effective leaders learn to listen. They learn to listen. They learn to hear what individuals or a group. This is, I think, where Steve Jobs' genius was. It's not that he, he was able to see the future. It's that he listened, right? It's that he, he was able to hear that people struggled with their technology and he realized that if technology is to really be valuable in our lives, then we have to adapt the technology to fit the way we live our lives and not change the way we live our lives to fit the technology. It's ridiculous you should have to learn an entirely new language to use a PC.

• 36:51Simon Sinek?

  Why don't we make the PC fit the way we naturally think and do things? Da, da, da, da, you know? Which eventually Microsoft copied and called Windows, you know, that, you know? It was ridiculous that we couldn't even work the phones and you had to read a manual to use your phone. There was too many things. In other words, it's telling us that we have to change the way we live our lives to fit the technology. He said, one button. Okay, they changed the technology to fit our lives. He listened.

• 37:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 37:14Simon Sinek?

  It's, it's called brilliant active listening. He was a brilliant listener, you know? For all his bombast, he was a brilliant listener. Um, and I think all good leaders are. There's a great story of what listening means. Bob Chapman, this story's not in the book, but Bob Chapman is in the book. This CEO of a company in St. Louis, the company's called Barry Way Miller.

• 37:37Simon Sinek?

  Amazing company, amazing company. The people trust each other and look after each other. It's just the most incredible thing. Anyway, Bob Chapman tells this story of how he learned what listening is. And he and his wife are having a baby. And she calls down to him, Bob, come up, I want to ask you what you think of the wallpaper I chose for the nursery. Well, Bob, wanting to be a good listener, wanting to be a good husband, turns off the game, you know, good, it's good. He doesn't, you know, he doesn't scream out, come down, you know, he gets up from his chair and goes upstairs, repeats to himself what he's been asked, tell me what you think of the wallpaper, I'm gonna be a good husband. He walks in, she holds up the wallpaper and says, what do you think of the wallpaper

• 38:20Simon Sinek?

  I've chosen? And he says, I don't like it, being honest. And she throws the paper at him. She throws the roll of wallpaper at him, because he wasn't listening. What he failed to hear was she was never asking what he thought of the wallpaper. What she was asking is, do you think I'm qualified to be the mother of our child? And he said, no. Exactly. Because when somebody does that, they say, you know, do I know what the right decisions are for our baby? That's what, that's what she's asking in this period of insecurity. Right? And so what he should have done is held her clothes and said, can you believe we're having a baby? I love you so much. And then the next day say, can we talk about the wallpaper? That's listening. Right?

• 39:05Simon Sinek?

  That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. So he got it wrong. And where, you know, a lot of us are bad. And I, and here, here's one of the greatest things. Here's one of the easiest tricks for listening. And again, listening is not repeating back what you heard. You know, listening is understanding the motivation of why it was said in the first place. Right? So I'll tell you a true story. So I was, I spoke at a large military event where there are what they call a rainbow force in the audience. So members of all the different services, all different uniforms in the audience. And I told a story, in fact, it was the Afghanistan story. And there was a soldier who stood up, and he was pretty senior, he was a colonel.

• 39:42Simon Sinek?

  And sort of kind of went at me a little bit. And I realized he misunderstood something I said, and so I attempted to clarify. And he went at me again. And it and I attempted to clarify and he wouldn't let me out. And it started to get uncomfortable for me and it started to get pretty uncomfortable for the whole audience, right? And, you know, sort of eventually the event ended and the general, the general who invited me came up to me and said, I'm so sorry, you know, you're our guest. I that shouldn't have happened. I will deal with it, he said. And I told the general, please don't deal with it. What I want you to do is go ask that soldier if he's okay. In other words, the single greatest asset you have as a listener is empathy. Right? So he didn't go yell at him and said, who do you are?

• 40:26Simon Sinek?

  What do you think you're doing embarrassing me, embarrassing us? Like, do you, you know, why did you do that? He went up to the soldier afterwards, I talked, I talked to the general later. He went up to the soldier and said, are you okay? How's your family? And the soldier revealed that he was in, he was in theater just a week before and saw some horrible things and I touched a nerve. He was extremely apologetic as opposed to being defensive. Right. And expressed how he was out of line instead of defending his actions and was grateful to that general for having concern for him. And so the way to listen is to have empathy. Like, what is the reason they're telling me this? That is powerful. It's much more powerful. And so, by the way, it goes both ways. You know, like our, our leaders, our bosses need to have empathy for us.

• 41:10Simon Sinek?

  So when we screw up, you don't fire somebody who has performance issues. You ask them what's going on in their lives. You know, at the same time, if our bosses berate us and yell us, yell at us, we don't say, that guy's a bastard. We go to our bosses and say, you okay? Right? Empathy. Empathy is pretty much the only motivation for anything. That's powerful. Yeah. And again, it's really hard because sometimes people say things to you that are hurtful or personal or mean or out of line. You know? Do you have the capacity to, for empathy? Do you have the capacity to hear what they're saying and express concern for the reason they may be saying it? Now, sometimes it's a personality clash. Sometimes there is nothing, you know?

• 41:54Simon Sinek?

  But, you know, but, but leaders have empathy. That's what earns them the right to be called leaders. And again, remember, never confuse leadership with rank. Has nothing to do with it. Interesting. And the best leaders are followers. The best leaders are followers and the best followers are leaders, right? Think about it. Great leaders follow something. Martin Luther King believed that there is a higher law. He believed that there was the laws of man and the laws of a higher authority. And not until the laws of man were consistent with the laws of a higher authority would we live in a just world. He was a follower of the higher authority. Sure. That's what made him the leader because he chose to follow. Wow. You know, Gandhi believed in a higher law. We chose, he chose to follow.

• 42:37Simon Sinek?

  And so when we talk about servant leaders, what we mean is it's not that they're here to serve per se. I mean, yes, it does, but what it means is they are in service. They are servants. They're servants to a higher cause. To a purpose. To a vision, a purpose, you know, religion, a spirit. It doesn't matter where it comes from. Something, yeah. But it provides guidance. I mean, think how we describe our own leaders. Why do you follow them? He provides guidance. He provides direction. He tells us his vision. Well, what do you think the leaders are getting it from? Not from nothing. Right. Right? That's why vision in a company is so important because what are the leaders following? Right? And without the vision, they follow the results. They follow the daily machinations. The what and the how.

• 43:20Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, they follow the daily machinations of a stock value. Right? That's what you're following? Like, that's what giving your life purpose? And you find, I mean, there's great research on this. Stanley Milgram, one of the paramount researchers on this, that when we have a sense of a higher authority, be it a vision, a purpose, whatever it is, we're more likely to make the quote unquote right decision. When we don't have a sense of a higher authority, we're more likely to listen to the authority figure that's standing in front of us. And so if you think about a lot of CEOs that quote unquote lack vision, in other words, nothing to follow, who do they listen to? Wall Street. Well, isn't that ironic that these people who call themselves leaders are actually doing as they're told by somebody else? Hmm.

• 44:04Simon Sinek?

  So and the best, so the best leaders are also followers, which means the best followers, the people devoted to a cause bigger than themselves, become the leaders. So what are you following? I, I wake up every single day to inspire people to do what inspires them. I fundamentally believe that fulfillment is a right and not a privilege. And I find it inadequate that only a few people get to wake up every morning and say, I love my job or I love my life. I find that terribly unfair. And it's not a lottery. It's not for the lucky few who get to discover it or find it. We are all entitled. We have a right to be fulfilled in life. And so I have a vision of a world in which the vast majority wake up every single day, inspired to go to work and come home every day fulfilled by the work that they do and feel safe while they're at work.

• 44:49Simon Sinek?

  It's not complicated. Yeah. And, and it takes great leaders to get us there and anyone can volunteer to be that leader. You know, we have to choose to be the leader we wish we had.

• 45:02Simon Sinek?

  And that is what I follow. That is what I believe and that I, that's what I work tirelessly towards and I'm looking to join the army and, and build the army of those who want to do it with me. I mean, you know, it's a jigsaw puzzle, you know? No one piece makes up the whole puzzle. Right. I only have one piece of the puzzle, but you know how a jigsaw puzzle works, right? First you dump out all the pieces and then you put the picture against the wall or whatever, against, you know, and you look at the picture as you do the jigsaw puzzle. You can't just take random pieces and make, make, you have to see what you're going towards. So my job in this, in this jigsaw puzzle is I'm the one pointing at the picture. I'm the one like, I'm out there preaching.

• 45:43Simon Sinek?

  My, my, my talks, my, my writings, you know, my job in this, in this team, in this army is, is I'm the one pointing at the picture, reminding of the thing we're trying to build, reminding everybody of the thing we're trying to build. And then all I'm asking for is everybody who has a piece of the jigsaw puzzle, who they believe would help build this vision, to just come down to the table and just put it on the table and we'll find the right fit and we'll find where it goes. Like we'll figure that out together. Sure. And by the way, we don't need a complete puzzle to make the picture. Like we can have a sense of it mostly. You know, so we don't need to change the, we don't need to change everybody. We just need to get most of it.

• 46:17Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 46:18Simon Sinek?

  So, yeah, you know, I, I don't have a large corporation. Other people do. They have the opportunity to build a, an environment in which people feel safe. Do that. That's your piece of the jigsaw puzzle. Other people are building tools to help those people, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We all, if we believe in this picture, if we look at this picture and go, oh, that's pretty. Then, then we have the responsibility to bring our, our pieces to the table.

• 46:42Lewis Howes?

  So what's your biggest fear in, in this vision, in this higher purpose?

• 46:46Simon Sinek?

  Um.

• 46:47Lewis Howes?

  What's your fear, your personal fears?

• 46:49Simon Sinek?

  Um.

• 46:52Simon Sinek?

  I mean, my fears are not that much different to everybody else's, you know?

• 46:58Simon Sinek?

  I, I believe in momentum. I don't believe I'll ever achieve this vision in my lifetime. But I would like to see that it's making some progress before I die. Like, I'd like to die and say, all right, it's going, you know? So I guess I fear that, that it, that it either won't find its momentum, or if it does, that, that if I am incapable of releasing myself from it, then it will die, then it'll die with me. And I, I desperately don't want that to happen. I don't think that will happen.

• 47:24Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 47:25Simon Sinek?

  I don't know. My fears are like everybody else. I mean, they're pretty mundane. You know, I'm afraid that those who I've made myself vulnerable to will hurt me. I'm afraid that the risks I've taken to expose myself to people and share them, sort of my, you know, parts of me that are, you know, buried deep inside, that they will, you know, not keep those things safe. I don't think my fears are that different from anybody else's.

• 47:51Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever been married?

• 47:52Simon Sinek?

  No.

• 47:52Lewis Howes?

  No. Let me ask you a question about this.

• 47:56Simon Sinek?

  Am I gonna get myself in trouble? Is this, is this where, is this where I say something and will then never get married?

• 48:02Lewis Howes?

  Do you think you can be as big of a leader that you want to be, being married?

• 48:08Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 48:14Lewis Howes?

  Or does it all depend?

• 48:15Simon Sinek?

  You know, the choice to be a leader is the choice to be a parent. And so to actually be a parent or to be in a relationship and also be a leader means that you have two families, which means if sacrifice is a is is the criteria for leadership, it's the criterion for leadership, the willingness to sacrifice, right? It means that sometimes you'll have to sacrifice one for the other. And so I would imagine that it's about balance, that your one family understands that you're responsible to your wife and maybe your kids or your husband and your kids, and that they

• 48:57Simon Sinek?

  are willing to take one for the team now and then so that you can go look after that. And likewise, that your family and your spouse understand that you are in service to that and and your spouse is deeply, deeply supportive of of that vision that you have. So I think the risk is imbalance. And look, it is imperfect and it will go out of balance here and there. But but yeah, it's it's entirely possible because people do it, you know? I couldn't say it's impossible because there's empirical evidence to the contrary. I'm not a I'm not, I don't think at this point in my life, the funny thing is funny, you're getting me thinking now, you know?

• 49:38Simon Sinek?

  I think when I was younger, I didn't have the capacity for both. And I think there's a reason I'm not married, which is I was, I wasn't willing to sacrifice the cause for the relationship.

• 49:52Lewis Howes?

  For one person.

• 49:53Simon Sinek?

  For one person. The relationship to me was always subordinate. And I, the good news is both I've learned that that I can, you know, find balance. And I think also I've worked, I've made certain sacrifices in my life that that the movement has found some momentum. In other words, I'm not the only person out there banging the drum, right? Which affords me the freedom to go and love another and not just my cause.

• 50:18Lewis Howes?

  Because on one hand, I feel like having that love, you do crazy things and you fill yourself up.

• 50:24Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, you get on a plane and travel coast to coast to coast, but like that's stupid, you know?

• 50:29Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. You fill yourself up, which could then you could give that love away on a greater scale. Or if it's out of balance, that relationship, it could also, if you're not a strong enough leader, I think everyone's going to be emotionally, you know, feeling something different when they're in a relationship, depending on how it's going. Will that take you back from your vision? And how long will that take you back for? And is it worth it to have the love and then maybe?

• 50:51Simon Sinek?

  Well, I think, I think that I've, the thing that I've learned is a great article that's floating on the internet right now about dating your spouse, you know, that I'm married and I'm dating somebody. I'm actually dating my spouse, you know? And I, I think that's such a great concept. And I think the lesson that I've learned is that the person with whom I choose to share a life and who chooses to have me share theirs, you know, is every bit involved in my vision as I am involved in theirs, i.e. I feel safe and supported and feel that I can more likely achieve this mad vision of changing the world, you know, because they're in my life, not in spite of them being in my life.

• 51:36Simon Sinek?

  And I, I think that has been the biggest thing I've learned in the past, even just a couple of years, I think. And that's the mistake I've made in my previous relationship. So, you know, uh, yeah.

• 51:50Lewis Howes?

  Well, I think we have a whole nother conversation about this, but I could go on.

• 51:53Simon Sinek?

  Oh, the time's up. Oh, look at that. Oh, too bad.

• 51:56Lewis Howes?

  I've got many other questions that I'd love to ask. Definitely next time we actually get on and do this, which hopefully will come back. I want to talk about being of, you know, serving those who serve others.

• 52:07Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 52:08Lewis Howes?

  I really like that.

• 52:09Simon Sinek?

  Well, that's what, by the way, that is what I've learned the definition of fulfillment is. The definition of fulfillment is the willingness to serve those who serve others. So it doesn't mean blind service, serving everybody. It doesn't mean everybody needs my help. That's like, you know, that's like saying, I love everyone on this planet. It's just not true. Some of them are bastards and you just don't want them. They just, you don't love them. You don't, you don't even like them. Forget about love them. Like there are some people you just don't like. And that's okay. You know, it's about serving those who serve others. And that's what service is. And this is why I'm sort of. I have trouble with the self-help industry. You know, it's, it's, it's, the self-help industry is very emblematic of our society these days. And the self-help, self-help industry sort of started out around the 1970s and has grown exponentially year after year after year.

• 52:52Simon Sinek?

  And I can't, I can't help but enjoy the irony that if the self-help industry was working so well, wouldn't their revenues be in decline? You know, because it would be working, just saying. You know, but, you know, we've become a very selfish society, which is what can I do to find the job I love? What can I do to find my life purpose? What can I do, you know, to, you know, lose 10 pounds? And we've forgotten that fulfillment actually comes from what can I do to help the person next to me lose 10 pounds? What can I do to help the person next to me find their life purpose? What can I do to help the person next to me find the job that they love? And that's where fulfillment comes from. And I'll leave you with this, which is that idea is not new. And if you look at something like Alcoholics Anonymous, which has been successful for over

• 53:35Simon Sinek?

  80 years or something like that, helping people beat this addiction of alcoholism. And it all boils down to the 12th step. Now, we know the 12, we joke about the 12-step program and we all sort of joke about the first step, you know, admit you have a problem, okay? But it's the 12th step that matters the most. It's, it's the keystone. And Alcoholics Anonymous knows that if people master all 11 steps but not the 12th, the odds are pretty high that they're going to start drinking again. But if they master the 12th step as well, they will beat the disease. What's the 12th step? The 12th step is the commitment to help another alcoholic.

• 54:11Lewis Howes?

  Being a mentor, being whatever.

• 54:15Simon Sinek?

  In other words, the only way you beat the disease of alcoholism is when you choose to help someone else beat the disease of alcoholism.

• 54:23Lewis Howes?

  Amazing.

• 54:24Simon Sinek?

  And fulfillment is exactly the same.

• 54:26Lewis Howes?

  Amazing. I love it. Well, final question.

• 54:29Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 54:30Lewis Howes?

  I ask everyone.

• 54:31Simon Sinek?

  Sure.

• 54:32Lewis Howes?

  What's your definition of greatness?

• 54:33Simon Sinek?

  I, I think we've just talked about it for an hour.

• 54:35Lewis Howes?

  Dig it someone up.

• 54:36Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, my, my definition of greatness is the willingness to put your interests aside so that others may prevail. You know, the willingness to put your own greatness aside so that others may be great.

• 54:47Lewis Howes?

  Love it. Thanks, man. Where can we find you online and where can we get the book?

• 54:51Simon Sinek?

  All the standard places, you know, it's available at fine bookstores everywhere and some not so fine ones for that matter, you know, Barnes and Noble, Amazon and small local bookshops as well sometimes. What else? @SimonSinek on Twitter.

• 55:11Lewis Howes?

  SimonSinek.com

• 55:12Simon Sinek?

  That's the, yeah, startwithy.com or leaderseatlast.com, both of those work. What else? The usual Facebook, Instagram, all the usual.

• 55:23Lewis Howes?

  Make sure, make sure everyone goes out and buys the book and I appreciate you for coming on and being so open and vulnerable and sharing your fears.

• 55:31Simon Sinek?

  Thanks for giving me a safe space.

• 55:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks, Simon.

• 55:38Lewis Howes?

  So there you have it, guys. Thanks so much for checking this out. Again, very interesting, all the stuff that Simon talks about. And what do you think about the last question that I asked about leadership and achieving your mission in life with, with kids and with marriage? What are your thoughts? Go ahead and leave your comments over at the show notes. You can head over to schoolofgreatness.com or lewishouse.com and check out the show notes with Simon. And leave a comment, share this with your friends on Twitter and Facebook and let me know what you think. With that, guys, I'm super pumped for what's to come with the School of Greatness podcast. We have some amazing guests coming up and the year has just begun.

• 56:20Lewis Howes?

  So strap in and get ready for an amazing ride and make sure to go out there and do something great.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  Be true to the game because the game will be true to you. If you try to shortcut the game, then the game is going to shortcut you. If you put forth the effort, a good thing will be bestowed upon you. That's truly about the game and in some ways that's about life too.