You Are Not Alone With Postpartum Depression

Most new moms get the baby blues soon after giving birth. Postpartum depression is something much different - the symptoms are similar, but their intensity can have sweeping effects on mom, baby, and the whole family. Fortunately, it’s highly treatable but the catch is moms usually have to ask for help. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford ability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder that Capital One Bank Guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums.

• 0:45Josh Clark?

  He'd also tell you about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com/bankguy. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC. When you're in do it yourself mode, the last thing you want to do is drop everything to pick up that one part or tool that you need. That's where My Lowe's Rewards and My Lowe's Pro Rewards come in. Place your order and Lowe's handles the rest. Lowe's will make the run for you with free same day delivery. Members get more at Lowe's. $25 minimum and loyalty membership required. Order eligible items by 2 P M.

• 1:28Josh Clark?

  Subject to weight and size restrictions and availability. Terms at Lowe's.com/shippingterms.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:45Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is Stuff You Should Know, the kind of bummer edition.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55Josh Clark?

  Where we're hoping to shine a light on something to help people out.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  That's right. You know how we do these.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  Playlist once a quarter now, which by the way, I hope people are enjoying those, sort of collecting things in groups and releasing them once a quarter in groups of 10 or 12.

• 2:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  I thought it was kind of a fun idea and we've been enjoying it, but maybe one day, something we can bucket is just really sad joke-free episodes that we feel like are almost like a public service announcement.

• 2:25Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  We just call them bummer episodes you need to hear.

• 2:28Josh Clark?

  Right. I think that's a great title. Let's do that. I mean, we have enough for sure.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, this would definitely be one of them because we're talking about postpartum depression and sort of the general bucket of post and even prenatal and during natal troubles that women go through because there are several subcategories that they kind of place under postpartum depression. But it is a real serious thing that affects, you know, I saw 10 to 15%, I think Dave helped us with this and he said 1 in 8, which is about 12%.

• 3:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Of women experience this and it's one of those things that is not talked about enough to where it seems like the numbers could be higher because people are still ashamed to admit this kind of thing happens.

• 3:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there is a definite stigma on this to varying degrees depending on your culture or ethnic group.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:31Josh Clark?

  But basically across the board, you're going to find a stigma against a new mother who can't get it together for her baby. That's kind of like what people sometimes look at it as. And if you were basically being looked at like that and you're already down on yourself because you're not performing perfectly to your own standards or whatever, that heaped on top of it, you're probably not going to be like, everybody, I need help. You're going to just kind of dig in and just keep trying to go. And that is the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do with any of what are called maternal mental health issues. There's a whole umbrella term. It's not just postpartum depression or perinatal depression.

• 4:15Josh Clark?

  There's a bunch of other ones we'll talk about a little bit too. But all of them add up to you got to ask for help. You also have to be on the lookout for needing to offer help to the new mother too, if you're the father or a family member or a friend or something.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a brutal situation where, I mean, giving birth is a,

• 4:39Speaker 02

  you know, it can be a very wonderful, joyous thing, but no matter how you slice it, it's a very

• 4:45Speaker 02

  big sort of, traumatic doesn't always necessarily, I think, mean something awful, but just such a big life event that then you're then expected like, and now it's supposed to be the best thing ever? And you're going to be the happiest you've ever been immediately, despite these huge hormonal swings.

• 5:04Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  And you're going to be a perfect mom, you're going to be such a great mom, you're going to be a perfect mom. It's just, it's just so much pressure. And so, yeah, this is a bit of a PSA for sure.

• 5:14Josh Clark?

  For sure. And you hit, you hit something on the nose. The, being perfect immediately, I mean, being perfect is a too high an expectation anyway. Nobody's perfect, but the idea that you're just supposed to immediately click with your kid and just now you're a perfect mom or a great mom, like that is not how it plays out very often. I would guess most of the time it doesn't.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  It's a process.

• 5:38Josh Clark?

  Exactly. So like I said, postpartum depression or perinatal, I'm just going to call it postpartum. I basically don't know anybody who's ever called it perinatal depression.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:49Josh Clark?

  So we're just going to call it postpartum depression with the caveat that it doesn't just happen after birth. It can happen while, during the pregnancy as well, right?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, and up to a year following birth as well.

• 6:01Josh Clark?

  For sure. So again, this falls under the umbrella term of maternal mental health. There's also some others, postpartum anxiety, postpartum obsessive compulsive disorder. We'll talk about those a little bit later. But when you put all of these things together, you get a really bleak picture of mothers in the United States. Whereas the rest of the world is doing better and better with maternal mental health. The US keeps getting worse and worse. And I mean, like a lot worse.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was a CDC study that found that rates of postpartum depression were seven times higher in 2015 than they were in 2000. And between 2016 and 2023, new moms reported nearly 65% increase.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Of fair to poor mental health, it is, oh man, it is the leading cause of death among new mothers now in the United States with suicide and drug overdose accounting for 22% of all postpartum maternal deaths in the United States.

• 7:07Josh Clark?

  That's crazy.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  You know, maternal death rates, you usually look at it as like, you know, something tragic happened in the birth, like physically or biologically.

• 7:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  And in the United States, the leading cause of death is suicide and drug overdoses.

• 7:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, and this is the highest in the developed world by far. And that that increases the highest in the developed world, right? So it's it's a crisis in the United States. It's a crisis worldwide, but in the United States, it's like a five alarm fire, apparently.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:41Josh Clark?

  I'd be really interested to know what the problem is.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:46Josh Clark?

  What what's behind those figures or underneath those figures?

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Same.

• 7:50Josh Clark?

  You think it's the the the United States transition toward the becoming the society from a Handmaid's Tale?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that might have something to do with it.

• 8:01Josh Clark?

  So one of the other things about the postpartum depression, too, that's really problematic is, and you kind of touched on this early on, I think something like half of cases just go undiagnosed, in part because even doctors sometimes are like, you'll be fine. Just get over, just get back in there, you know, give it the old college try. And families too, and I think that that self inflicted stigma too, that new mothers have.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, it's it's one of the reasons is because, and you know, they have screening tools now, there's one called the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale to determine like when that line is crossed because the the baby blues or the postpartum blues are something that happens a lot, like maybe even most pregnancies, you end up for, you know, up to like a week or two, having these hormonal swings where there's like overlapping symptoms with what ends up being. PPD. So that's why a lot of reason it becomes undiagnosed is because people think like, well, this is just the baby blues. I'm suffering from some sadness and crying and because and feeling overwhelmed certainly because.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  This is maybe my first time, although I should point out that postpartum is not limited to first birth at all.

• 9:19Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  It can happen with any, like their third birth, the third kid, fourth kid, whatever. But the overlap is so great that a lot of times I think people are like, well, it'll pass, it'll pass. It's just the baby blues. But if it goes on for more than a week or two, you're probably in PPD territory.

• 9:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's not that the postpartum depression is a like a different thing than the baby blues. It's the severity of the symptoms, the same symptoms and the duration of those same symptoms that really differentiate it. And make it something that like you, you need help for, like you need to get professional help. It's not just going to go away on its own, or if it does, it's going to, you're going to grind through years of it. Totally unnecessarily because we didn't say this yet. It's very highly treatable.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. That's the good news and we'll get to that. But you know, some of those symptoms we should list are. Loss of appetite, difficulty sleeping, feeling worthlessness, or maybe even guilt or shame. Anxiety, panic, irritability, anger, big time mood swings, difficulty with bonding with your baby. And again, these are, these can be the baby blues, or if they're super severe and go on long enough, like you said, it develops into PPD. And it's the kind of thing that can also start several weeks to a month later. So. You got to keep an eye, like if those first couple of weeks are like, you're like, oh man, I managed to dodge this.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  It also might start later and that's okay. You just need to be aware.

• 10:52Josh Clark?

  Right. I said that there's other disorders under the umbrella of maternal mental health issues. And another one is postpartum psychosis.

• 11:05Josh Clark?

  And it's essentially what it sounds like. The mental health disorder can become so pronounced after birth that you may suffer from delusions, you may become paranoid, you may be disoriented, you may feel disassociated from the people around you or the world itself or reality. And that is considered, so postpartum depression is something you need to seek help for. Postpartum psychosis is considered a, you immediately take a trip to the ER.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:36Josh Clark?

  When you or the people around you figure out that you are suffering from postpartum psychosis. It's like, get in the car, maybe you can throw on a robe and just go to the ER.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's, it's very rare, we should say. It's one out of every 1,000 births. But they say that because very sadly, about 4.5% of the cases of that psychosis result in harm to the baby.

• 11:59Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  And 5% result in suicide. And if, you know, if you've ever seen some terrible news report about like a mom that said, you know, God told me to drown my baby. That's what we're talking about here because delusions of grandeur, a lot of times religious in nature, obsessive thoughts about harming you or harming your baby, extreme paranoia, like that kind of thing. That's, that's what falls under the postpartum psychosis banner.

• 12:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and from researching postpartum psychosis, they found that there are some additional risk factors. Seems like the number one risk factor for developing it is if you have a history, whether personal or familial, of bipolar disorder. And that if you start having sleep loss that triggers bouts of mania, that is a really big red flag that you are at a great risk of going on to develop postpartum psychosis. Meaning, so sleep loss, which you already are getting from just having a new baby, but if that triggers mania, that's a, that's a big red flag. And that's probably what kicks the whole thing off is that loss of sleep. It's like.

• 13:14Josh Clark?

  Crazy important and it's nuts that evolution didn't take that into account like, oh yeah, we need to make sure everybody sleeps after this. Not stays awake for the next two years. Because it'll drive people crazy. Like that, that can trigger that, all of these maternal mental health issues.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that can be rough on a family. We got very, very lucky with Ruby in that she was a pretty good sleeper from early on, but. I've heard some nightmare stories and it's really tough. Sleep is so, so important. I think another thing we didn't point out was for the postpartum psychosis. It's almost always a first time pregnancy too, which is differentiates it from postpartum, general postpartum depression. But you know, some similar risk factors for regular PPD. If you have a history of depression or anxiety, you're more likely. If you had a childhood trauma that you experienced. If you underwent infertility treatment, you may be more likely to.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  If it's an unplanned pregnancy, or if you're a low income mother. Especially if you're like literally living in poverty, they experience PPD at twice the rate of higher income moms.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  And there are also a couple of biological factors. If you suffer from anemia or hypothyroidism. And then it can be genetic. I think depending on what study you've seen, I've seen anywhere from 14 to 30%. Have like potentially a genetic factor, like inheritable.

• 14:45Josh Clark?

  Oh, really? I hadn't seen that at all.

• 14:49Josh Clark?

  Let's talk about. Postpartum or perinatal OCD. And perinatal mood and anxiety disorder real quick too. Okay?

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:59Josh Clark?

  So P O C D, this is, this to me sounds like the hardest to deal with because I think you're probably the least likely to step forward and say, I need some help, everybody. But it's obsessive compulsive disorder that develops way more quickly than typical obsessive compulsive disorder. But usually very shortly after birth or after the baby's born. And it's, you know. Like ritual behaviors, like checking on the baby incessantly, worrying that the baby's going to get contaminated with germs. And lots of intrusive thoughts that can be super disturbing.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's a natural tendency if you've, especially for a first time parent, to have this new, seemingly very fragile tender thing that you're in charge of keeping alive. It's a pretty natural instinct, I think, to maybe think like, they're so small and so fragile.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  So my dumb advice, just as a parent, is like, they're more robust than you think. And they're made to survive and they're made to live, generally speaking. So you have that on your side. But I can see how it's pretty easy for maybe someone to go down this road of worrying about germs or checking on the baby every like, 10 minutes in the middle of the night and to become sort of obsessive. This, the P O C D can cross the line into some even unwanted sexual obsessions. Like a mother apparently can have sexualized images flashing through their mind while they're changing a diaper, which is just sort of a, creates a cycle of you thinking like,

• 16:44Speaker 02

  what's wrong with me? What's going on? I'm having this weird thing flash through my head.

• 16:48Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  And in reality, that's all it is, is just like a sleep or your hormones or something just really unusual that flashed through your head. And as an intrusive thought, it does not mean that that's who you are or what, or you're leading to some awful outcome.

• 17:07Josh Clark?

  Right. And I think that's kind of worth saying again, Chuck, because this is the kind of thing that you would not, who are you going to tell that to? Oh, I'm having sexualized thoughts about our baby.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:18Josh Clark?

  Right? You're not going to tell that to anybody. It's going to be so tough to admit that. So you have to know that is not you. It is your hormones. It is not you. You do, you have not suddenly developed a sexual attraction to infants or children. Like, it's not you. So if you're having thoughts like this, you're not alone. It's actually more common than you would think. And like, you can get treatment for this and you should get treatment for it because you're probably really being hard on yourself right now.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, and if you give into that thought, then that's when you're maybe avoiding bathing your baby or avoiding caring and holding for your baby. So it's a tough thing to come forward and talk to people. So that's why it's really great to have a great support system of of other moms, friends and families to people to lean on because I guarantee you if you if you say the weirdest thought you've had out loud in a group of moms, there will be a couple of them that are like, I had the same thoughts. It's okay.

• 18:19Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully you have a group like that or confined one, you know?

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:24Josh Clark?

  Then there's postnatal mood and anxiety disorder, which essentially is a really terrible positive feedback loop to where you feel like you're not bonding with your baby well enough or fast enough. And so you start to become anxious, which the baby picks up on and the baby becomes distressed or less likely to connect with you or pay attention to you, which makes it harder for you to read the baby, which makes it less likely for you to bond in any kind of quick fashion. And it just keeps going in this cycle.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And you know what? I want to recommend a podcast because if you maybe you're a little more isolated and you don't feel like you have this, or if you just don't have this sort of support system around you, our old buddy Jesse Thorne, who runs the Maximum Fun Network and co-hosts with Judge John Hodgman with our pal, his wonderful wife Teresa is, she's just the best. And I don't think they do it anymore, but Teresa and Biz Ellis had a show called One Bad Mother.

• 19:30Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, I remember that.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  For a long time. And I'm pretty sure they stopped doing it, but they did it for many, many years. And One Bad Mother was just a great outlet and support system for just this kind of stuff. For, you know, the message was always like, you're doing just fine. You're doing okay. You think you're the worst and you're really the best. And like, you know, if you're having a hard time and you're, you feel like you're alone in this, like, turn on that podcast. Like, do something like that to know that you're not alone out there.

• 20:00Josh Clark?

  Right. And pour yourself a mega pint of wine and treat yourself to the Bad Moms trilogy in one sitting.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 20:10Josh Clark?

  So you want to take a break?

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's take a break and we'll get into some statistics about other communities and how they deal with this.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Hey, everybody. Cozy season is upon us, and that means crisp mornings, that means soft layers, and that means Bombas.

• 20:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Bombas makes your comfiest fall staples, so you can make the most out of one of the best seasons of the year. Bombas has new suede moccasins that are perfect for fall because they have cushy soles, a sheerling lining, and they're made of water-resistant suede.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  That's right, and their slippers are everything you'd want for a cozy night in, made with the softest, squishiest materials.

• 20:57Josh Clark?

  And of course, Bombas has socks. Not just any socks, socks for every type of weather, every type of occasion, because fall can be fickle, and Bombas makes socks that can handle it all. And the best part about Bombas, for every item you purchase, they donate an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased equals one donated, with over 200 million donations and counting.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  So head on over to Bombas.com/SYSK and use code SYSK at checkout for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash SYSK, using code SYSK at checkout.

• 21:38Josh Clark?

  You know, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next, unless something starts to feel off, because what we eat and how our bodies respond to it is complicated.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  That's right. From the very first bite, food kicks off a chain reaction, signals moving between the gut, the brain, and the immune system, the constant back and forth we can't see and often don't fully understand. So we want to introduce to you Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio. It's hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Eating Interrupted explores everything from food allergies and intolerance, and why they seem to be on the rise, to how digestion changes as we And what it's really like to live with a chronic GI condition.

• 22:22Josh Clark?

  Through personal stories and expert insight, listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 22:41Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 22:44Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  That's Alan Goya, planning engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 23:03Speaker 03

  It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 23:11Josh Clark?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 23:17Speaker 04

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 23:26Speaker 04

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data's flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 23:30Speaker 03

  What the fans experience is incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 23:34Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 23:38Speaker 05

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  All right, everyone, we're back. We promised talk about statistics. And in this case, there are some pretty stark racial disparities when it comes to PPD, as far as the incidence of occurrence and, very sadly, treatment. Up to 40% of Black and Latina moms suffer from PPD, which is about twice the rate of non-Hispanic white moms. And single Black mothers are six times more likely than the general population to experience it. Really sadly, Latina women and Black women are 57% and 41% respectively less likely to start treatment for PPD than white women.

• 24:34Josh Clark?

  Right, and there's a lot of reasons for why they're less likely to start treatment. In part, there's a stigma, just like with any culture. I think in Latino culture, that stigma can be even stronger than white or black culture. But for, say, black women in particular, it can often go undiagnosed because it doesn't present as the classic symptoms that the EMBRAS scale is designed to detect. Rather than depressive symptoms, a black mom might have irritability, self-criticism, deep fatigue, insomnia. These are not all necessarily shared by all new mothers. And so it just, the doctor just might miss it. They might be like, hey, you're just aggro.

• 25:19Josh Clark?

  Stop being aggro.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:21Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think they came up with a different, a different scale just for black mothers, right?

• 25:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the Jackson-Hogue-Phillips Contextualized Stress Measure. Which, next time you have a party?

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:35Josh Clark?

  Give that out as a party favor for guests.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. But that's great that they were like, hey, we have a, we have a hole in our treatment plan here as far as even diagnosing this in black women. So they, they came up with their own scale, which is awesome. The, basically, everybody, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the AMA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, everyone says, recommends that everybody should be screened for prenatal, or I'm sorry, perinatal depression. But, very sadly, less than 20% of all women are screened for these mental health disorders, and those numbers are a lot lower for women of color.

• 26:14Josh Clark?

  Right. So those are reasons why they might not actually go seek out treatment for PPD. There is also reasons why they're more likely to suffer from PPD in the first place, and those seem to center on social determinants of health.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:32Josh Clark?

  Which is like your, your environment, your income level, the amount of free time you might even have to go see the doctor. All of these things tend to be less than what a white mother would experience, and all of them help increase the likelihood of experiencing postpartum depression.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 26:52Josh Clark?

  So regardless, Chuck, of whatever your ethnic or racial group, there are essentially the same causes. I mean, PPD, even though it might manifest itself differently, even though access to help for PPD is different, those are all human-made obstacles.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:11Josh Clark?

  The biological basis for it is the same in every case. And essentially, it's a combination of hormones and the stark raving horror that is becoming a new parent.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Like we were saying, you're thrown into this brand-new thing where your first charge is like, all right, keep this baby alive.

• 27:34Josh Clark?

  I mean, I cannot imagine.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  I mean, I remember, and this is like, I imagine it's the same with adoption as with just, you know, a regular birth. But, you know, all of a sudden, someone just hands you a baby and the nurses see the look on your face. And hopefully, the nurses are all as great as ours were. They're just like, you're doing fine. They told us what I said was like, hey, these babies are meant to stay alive. You're going to be just fine. Just feed them this way and you're on the right track by just getting food into their body. And so, you know, like I said, you know, evolution has happened in such a way where they want these babies to live. So you've already got a bit of a head start.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  But being bombarded by hormones and a change in hormones is definitely something that's hard to deal with because your body's bombarded with hormones because you're pregnant to help you be successfully pregnant and to stay pregnant. And then immediately after, within like 72 hours, most of these hormones go back to their previous state. And that's just a big break to throw on.

• 28:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's pretty mean of evolution, really, to just be like, here's all the stuff that you need to have a baby. Now you don't have a baby anymore. Who cares about you? And your baby's like, thanks for the ride, lady.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Right, they could have been like, well, let's just tap these down like very slowly over the course of six months.

• 29:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, what the hey, you know?

• 29:07Speaker 02

  I know.

• 29:08Josh Clark?

  I'm a childless man, cis even. And I am offended by that. I'm mad at natural selection for that. It's just totally unfair. It's it's just unfair.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Well, what are some of these hormones? Let's talk about them.

• 29:22Josh Clark?

  Well, you got good old progesterone. Everybody knows that one. That one won the the Super Bowl last year.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 29:29Josh Clark?

  Um, it helps you create your placenta that the baby's going to, I guess, attach to. I remember if I remember my health class from eighth grade correctly.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:39Josh Clark?

  Uh, it also stimulates blood vessel growth, um, which helps get nutrients and oxygen to the womb. Progesterone, it like any hormone, it's actually quite clever. We have a finite number of hormones, not that many, actually. I'm not sure how many. But they do so many different things and they do so many different things in combinations. It's just elegant and beautiful the human body can be. Except when the hormone levels drop too quickly.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, there's also, of course, estrogen that's going to help the uterus grow, uh, contribute to fetal development as far as organs and things go. It's going to stimulate that milk duct development. Um, relaxin is another one. That's the

• 30:18Josh Clark?

  That's a great one.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  Chill of all. Uh, that's going to inhibit uterine contractions, uh, until you need them to avoid premature birth. And then it's gonna do double duty and relax and soften the pelvic joints, uh, when you're preparing for birth. And then finally, we have oxytocin. Uh, they really shoot through the roof at the beginning of labor to stimulate uterine contractions.

• 30:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Uh, and then, again, like we said, within about 72 hours of birth, uh, at least estrogen and progesterone that had increased tenfold just goes back to normal.

• 30:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  And these huge hormonal swings are just tough to deal with, you know, it's tough to know which way is up.

• 31:00Josh Clark?

  Okay, that's just the hormonal, the the biological aspect of it. There's also the environmental aspect of it. The uh, the nurture version, that was nature. This is the nurture part. And um, having a new baby comes along with um, all of a sudden you have to stay at home with your new baby and can't do anything. You aren't sleeping. I think that that is like, kind of overlooked by people who've never had kids, or underestimated, I think, maybe, or who haven't had kids that don't sleep very well. And then you also have to nurse, you have been physically gone through the wringer, taken through the wringer. Like, there's all sorts of different things that

• 31:44Josh Clark?

  come that are specific exclusively to just having had a baby, that combined with the hormones, they just come together and at the very least, give almost all new mothers the baby blues. And then some moms, postpartum depression, postpartum mood and anxiety disorder, postpartum psychosis, postpartum OCD.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you know, as far as the sleep thing goes, even if you have like, a great sleeper like we did, you're still gonna have disrupted sleep for a while, because you have to get up and feed that baby in the middle of the night. And some people have a really hard time going back to bed. So, this is when partners need to really, really, really, really, really step up. If you have a partner, when you're having a baby, I can't imagine how tough this is on your own. But, yeah, step up, take middle of the night feedings, let that mom get as much sleep as possible. And then they also say, sleep when the baby sleeps. So, embrace those naps all day long. If like, your baby has a great nap in the afternoon, so should you.

• 32:48Josh Clark?

  Right. Don't like your mother-in-law? Well, if she's willing to come over and watch the baby overnight, fake it.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, man. And we had a lot of help. So like, because you know, my mom and Emily's mom, were both living here at the time. And so, I just really feel for people that don't have that kind of help and feel like they're trapped at home. So, my other advice, as a cis dad, is to get out in the world. You might think that your baby is just a walking sickness bomb waiting to happen if they go and breathe the world's air.

• 33:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  But there's nothing better than you can do for yourself and your baby than to get out in the world as much as possible, as soon as possible.

• 33:28Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  They'll be just fine.

• 33:30Josh Clark?

  Great advice, Chuck. You are just rolling with it today.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  Well, I hope I've learned something.

• 33:36Josh Clark?

  I think you've learned a lot.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:39Josh Clark?

  So, yes, you have your hormone levels plummeting. That seems like a pretty good answer to where postpartum depression comes from, right?

• 33:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:48Josh Clark?

  But it turns out that they've zoomed in, they've gotten even more granular, if you're like a C-suite type, and have figured out that there's this one hormone in particular that really seems to be largely responsible. It's not the only one responsible for it, but it's, it's a pretty, it got caught red-handed with like a, a bag with the dollar sign on it, wearing a black mask, kind of skulking away.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 34:13Josh Clark?

  So what is it Chuck?

• 34:14Speaker 02

  Uh, it is allo pregnanolone. It's funny, Dave wrote this and he was like, good luck pronouncing that. And Dave, Dave buddy, that one's pretty easy compared to a lot of the stuff that we see.

• 34:24Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Uh, but that is a steroid.

• 34:26Josh Clark?

  Just try saying deletrious.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  That's a steroid naturally produced in the brain. And it plays a couple of key roles during pregnancy in that it inhibits the release of oxytocin, uh, which we already talked about to avoid premature labor, which you don't want. It also protects the developing fetal brain from all those stress hormones that mom has.

• 34:45Josh Clark?

  Right. Okay. So this is pretty great stuff. Unfortunately, just like all the other hormones, it says, so long, I've done my thing, like within, you know, a couple of days of having given birth. So all of a sudden, not only is this a hormonal change, this natural antidepressant has suddenly just vanished on you. And this can really seem to trigger, uh, postpartum depression in, in a lot of women.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. So, um, it's going to lower their anxiety for a while, while they're pregnant and boost a mother's mood. And then after that baby is born, when it crashes out, uh, it's, it's probably feels akin to like going off.

• 35:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  An SSRI or something.

• 35:32Josh Clark?

  But quickly, like, I mean, whenever you go off a medication like that, you're supposed to step it down slowly.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:40Josh Clark?

  Keep her it off. This is like, again, nature just being a total bee, um, ripping that stuff away from you. And all of a sudden you're just, you, you just going cold turkey off of this antidepressant you got used to over nine months.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 35:55Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, one thing that we've really been focusing on is the mom and the mom definitely suffers, um, from postpartum depression, but so can the baby as well.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Um. Pregnant women with PPD are far more likely to deliver a preterm baby or a baby with low birth weight. So there can be a literal like, like a physical outcome of postpartum depression for the baby. And we talked earlier about black and Latina women experiencing PPD at higher rates. So that also is going to correlate over to birth outcomes because black women are 50% more likely to give preterm, to give birth preterm than white women and more than twice as likely to have a baby with a low birth weight.

• 36:40Josh Clark?

  Right. This, of course, makes it even more pressure laden for you to get it just right. Right? So that also can affect your ability to bond with your baby. And again, as we saw with postpartum mood and anxiety disorder, that can create a feedback cycle where you get more and more anxious about it, more and more depressed about it. And that that affects your bonding even further, which you get more and more depressed and anxious about, and that affects your baby as well.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Should we take a break?

• 37:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there is one other thing, I think, before we break to point out, and that is that if you have postpartum depression, it doesn't mean that you don't want to bond with your baby. Like you are incapable of bonding with your baby in the healthiest possible way. It's not you, it's your biology and your environment.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I thought you were about to say, it's not you, it's them, it's the baby.

• 37:35Josh Clark?

  It's the baby's fault, yeah.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  He's just not that into you. All right, I'm glad we could make a sort of a light joke. I hope it came across that way and we will be back right after this with treatment options because there's great news on the horizon.

• 38:03Josh Clark?

  You know, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next unless something starts to feel off because what we eat and how our bodies respond to it is complicated.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  That's right. From the very first bite, food kicks off a chain reaction. Signals moving between the gut, the brain, and the immune system. A constant back and forth we can't see and often don't fully understand. So we want to introduce to you Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio. It's hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Eating Interrupted explores everything from food allergies and intolerance, and why they seem to be on the rise, to how digestion changes as we age, and what it's really like to live with a chronic GI condition.

• 38:46Josh Clark?

  Through personal stories and expert insight, listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect, and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  You know, you're never done decorating your home. You know what I mean?

• 39:11Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's a process. There's always something you could do, or buy, or update. The only question is, what's next? For us, our animals just wear out our rugs so quickly, it's usually a new rug.

• 39:22Josh Clark?

  Well, Chuck, whether you need a rug, or whatever is next for you, you can go to Wayfair. It's the smart place to get it.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  That's right. Whatever your style, whatever your budget, whatever you're looking for, Wayfair makes it easy to find it. And you can feel good about your purchases, too, because Wayfair verified products go through a thorough 10-point quality inspection.

• 39:40Josh Clark?

  And with over 20 million 5-star reviews, Wayfair must be doing something right. You can find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com.

• 40:13Josh Clark?

  Okay Chuck, so you said there's great news on the horizon and we're about to lay it on them, all the moms who are bawling and yelling and doing all the things while they're listening to this episode, treatment is quite viable.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  That's right. Standard treatment is what you might think. It's therapy, perhaps antidepressant medication, certainly CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, we've talked about a lot.

• 40:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  That's been proven to be pretty effective for PPD and postpartum anxiety.

• 40:48Josh Clark?

  And everything.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and everything in general, but in the case of CBT, you're identifying these triggers that seem very automatic, these thought patterns that you think you can't help and coached you through that and how to develop a healthier way of responding to those things when they do happen.

• 41:06Josh Clark?

  Right. God bless Dr. Aaron T. Beck, the creator of CBT.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 41:12Josh Clark?

  There's also medication. We talked about allopregnan alone being discovered as like a main culprit for postpartum depression. That led to some drugs being expressly targeted to basically help that transition. So you don't just go cold turkey, you kind of taper off of that stuff.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:30Josh Clark?

  And then there's also long been SSRIs prescribed for it, like a standard antidepressant. And that of course gives moms pause, like any kind of medication can give a lot of moms pause because they're like, I'm nursing, so what's that going to do to the baby?

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. They've studied this. The current sort of wisdom on this is that they have been detected in very, very low levels, sometimes even undetectable levels in breast milk. There are rare reports of adverse effects on infants or in infants. So that's where the science currently stands.

• 42:10Josh Clark?

  Yes, I also saw that paroxetine and sertraline, which is seroxate and Zoloft.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 42:15Josh Clark?

  They seem to be the preferred antidepressants for nursing mothers because they have a shorter half-life than other SSRIs. And they pass to breast milk in smaller amounts than other SSRIs. So if SSRIs in general are okay, these two are super okay. According to the medical establishment, not me, because I'm not a doctor.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  That's right. And by the way, we did, I think, two pretty good episodes on breastfeeding. Back in the day, that was a two-parter, right?

• 42:47Josh Clark?

  We did one on bottle feeding and one on breastfeeding.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, so feeding your baby. And, you know, I recommend you do those. And we got, you know, it's always when it's two dudes podcasting about this stuff, about lady stuff, we were always a little nervous. And we always get really good feedback from women that say, like, you guys did a really good job. And it's good that you guys are out there sort of not feeling like it has to come from a woman's perspective. So I hope we're doing this all justice, you know?

• 43:18Josh Clark?

  God, I hope so, too.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  I think you're doing fine.

• 43:21Josh Clark?

  I think you're doing great.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  But I'm just another cis dude.

• 43:25Josh Clark?

  So if you want to target allopregnan alone, there's a drug called brexanolone.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:34Josh Clark?

  There's another one called Zuranolone. Yeah.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Zuranolone?

• 43:38Josh Clark?

  And those are the generic terms for them. The problem is, is as it stands right now, if you're paying out of pocket with zero insurance, you're going to pay 34 grand for one. In the United States, I'm sure it's like 10 bucks in Canada.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:53Josh Clark?

  Or 15 grand for the other.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Shame, shame, shame.

• 43:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, hopefully, if you have even passingly decent insurance in the United States, like, you're not going to pay anything even remotely like that. But yes, I think you should say it again, Chuck.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, still, even if insurance is covering it, shame, shame, shame, shame, capital S H A M E.

• 44:16Josh Clark?

  Good for you, buddy. And now here's an ad for Zuranolone.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Oh, man, you're managing to squeeze in some jokes. I like that.

• 44:26Josh Clark?

  I like you.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  So can men get postpartum depression? The answer is yes, that can happen. Apparently between eight and 10% of new dads suffer from some kind of anxiety or depression after the birth of a job. And it also may be connected to hormones in some cases. It's usually later than women might experience it, between three and six months later, maybe up to a year later. But a lot of the same, you know, issues, sleep issues, loss of appetite, feeling overwhelmed, tired, sad, anxious. And also the same people at risk. If you're a younger dad, if you have a history of depression, if you are struggling financially, or if you're just having trouble in your marriage or relationship. You don't have to be married to have a baby. We all know that.

• 45:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  All of those same kind of risk factors.

• 45:18Josh Clark?

  Right. And there's also additional risk factors that dads customarily have that new moms don't necessarily. And that's the same, that's like the new mom is expected to be a great mom and raise a great, healthy, well-adjusted baby right out of the box. The dad is expected to really step it up and provide for his new family. And that can often mean like, well, you're stuck here in this job and you're now beholden to this employer. And like you may, this, that might not be the greatest feeling in the world for you right then. And at the very least, it's additional pressure. So that can also kick off postpartum depression in dads, which was, I think, best expressed in the Wham Song, "Everything She Wants."

• 46:03Speaker 02

  That's right. And I hope this is clear, but to be clear, we're not obviously talking about the old days where like, the man's got the job and the woman doesn't work and isn't expected to. But, you know, in two-income families, a lot of times when a mom has a baby, they, at the very least, hopefully, have a great maternity leave kind of situation. If not, sometimes they have to leave like whatever job and just not get paid for a while. So there may be more pressure on the second income earner to, you know, kind of make up for that loss, or at least keep the ship afloat till mom can get back to work.

• 46:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and one of the, I guess quirks of the United States economy, I guess, is that especially if you have a two-income house and there is not great maternal leave or paternal leave, and both parents have to go to work very soon after the birth, they will have to put their kid in childcare. The United States, unlike some other countries, does not have free childcare. It is a paid, private business, industry. And some couples figure out that the cost of daycare is more than, say, the mom or

• 47:21Josh Clark?

  the dad would actually bring home. And so in that sense, it makes sense for the mom or the dad to stay home, whoever has the lower income, that daycare would exceed. That's nuts that that happens to anybody, and it happens to a decent amount, at least anecdotally.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Daycare is really, really expensive, and it's a real shame because that helps the family, that helps for outcomes for the kid and their development. So my recommendation is to use your voice at the voting booth. And if there are candidates in your local city or state or nationwide that believe in the idea of free childcare, then speak with your vote. That's all I'm going to say on that.

• 48:09Josh Clark?

  Okay. One other thing too, Chuck, it's not just environment. Just like with postpartum depression in women, postpartum depression in men also seems to have to do with hormones because men's hormones, the balance of hormones change during pregnancy as well, which is pretty neat.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Your testosterone is going to probably drop during the pregnancy and continues to get lower after the birth happens. And people thinking, or researchers think that that's basically to keep tuk-tuk at bay and to reduce aggressive tendencies while, you know, father-infant bonding is happening. Like chill out, dad. You need to be gentler right now, so we're going to lower your T.

• 48:55Josh Clark?

  Right. And also stick around and help raise the kid rather than go look for your next conquest.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Man, I wonder if I should say this on here.

• 49:04Josh Clark?

  Well, we can edit it out.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  All right, we'll see. One of the funny things that Emily has done lately is,

• 49:13Speaker 02

  you know, all the, in this stupid manosphere world, like, you know, low T, beta male,

• 49:21Speaker 02

  soy, that's another one, like, you're soy, like, because you eat soy instead of meat like a man does. She will, anytime I'm like, I don't know, just being wishy washy about something or what, if she feels like she just wants to kind of poke fun at me, she'll, she'll call me like a beta cuck. Or ask me if I have low T, or like, hey, soy, come over here and help me with this thing.

• 49:40Josh Clark?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  It's very, I mean, it always just brings the house down between the two of us, because it's just such a dumb thing anyway. I like that she's taken something from the manosphere and kind of twisted it to use it in our own marriage as a comedy.

• 49:54Josh Clark?

  I would love to be sitting on the couch someday and her do that to you, because, yes, I would lose it too.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm waiting for Ruby to be like, what's a beta cuck?

• 50:04Josh Clark?

  Oh, well, let's see. Oh, yeah. Postpartum depression is also treatable in dads, so if you think you have it, seek help, because it's very treatable, too.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 50:15Josh Clark?

  You got anything else?

• 50:17Speaker 02

  I got nothing else, man. I always feel like we're on ice skates with these episodes, so.

• 50:20Josh Clark?

  I didn't feel like that about this one.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I always get a little nervous in how I speak about this stuff, so I hope you did okay.

• 50:25Josh Clark?

  You did great, man. You did great.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  You did great.

• 50:28Josh Clark?

  Well, then, like, it sounds like we both did great.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  I, but I want moms to write in and say you did great. I don't care what I think about you and what you think about me anymore. We know we love each other.

• 50:37Josh Clark?

  All right, fair enough. Okay, yeah, if you're a new mom, or an old mom, or even never had kids, it doesn't matter. We would love to hear from you about this episode.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and not just saying we're great. Like, if we fell short, let us know, and we'll try and do better and correct it.

• 50:54Josh Clark?

  Well put, man. I'm glad you said that, too, because, yeah, we sounded like a couple of.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  I know, like, please make us feel better.

• 51:00Josh Clark?

  Right, a couple of cucks.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  Beta cucks?

• 51:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Since Chuck just laughed about beta cucks again.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  So funny.

• 51:08Josh Clark?

  That means it's time for listener mail.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Soy is the one that really gets me.

• 51:16Josh Clark?

  Well, you know, it's crazy is soy actually does raise your estrogen levels and can give men mini boobs.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Oh, well, great. Give it to me. I love it. All right. This is from Adam in Michigan. Hey, guys. I'm a little more than disappointed that in the Three Mile Island episode, you failed to mention professional wrestler Adam Baum. He was a popular wrestler in the 1980s in the WWF. He was billed as being from Three Mile Island and was an imposing 6'6" 290.

• 51:45Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  He had yellow contact lenses and his finishing move was called the Adam Smasher. This is so great. He was a rather imposing figure with a very creepy theme song and he made quite an impact. His real name is Brian Clark and he's still alive and looks almost like he did in the 1980s. Adam from Michigan.

• 52:03Josh Clark?

  Nice. I have never heard of him, so thank you for letting us know, Adam.

• 52:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's fun.

• 52:08Josh Clark?

  You hadn't heard of him?

• 52:10Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I didn't keep up with wrestling much.

• 52:13Josh Clark?

  No, I didn't either. But it sounds like we were missing out on a lot.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  But, you know, we're just soy-loving beta cucks, so what do we know?

• 52:21Josh Clark?

  If you want to be like Adam and let us know. Wait, is this from Adam Baum himself?

• 52:26Speaker 02

  No, this is A-D-A-M.

• 52:29Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. Well, there was an Adam Baum who was a DJ at Album 88 for a while. He had like the Soul something show.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. I bet I listened to it.

• 52:39Josh Clark?

  It was really good. Well, anyway, thanks a lot, Adam from Michigan, for letting us know about Adam Baum. We love that. And if you want to get in touch with us like Adam did, you can send us an email too. Send it off to [email protected].

• 52:58Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 53:14Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Fordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 53:44Speaker 05

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 54:14Speaker 06

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.