War Crimes, Christian Nationalism, and the 25th Amendment

Even though the Supreme Court took a break from hearing oral arguments, there was still plenty of legal news breaking every day. Katie Phang https://www.youtube.com/@katiephangnews joins Leah to recap that news, including Trump's threats against Iran, the overt Christian nationalist rhetoric coming from the Secretary of Defense, and a disturbing case that SCOTUS decided not to hear. Then, Emily Amick https://www.instagram.com/emilyinyourphone/, joins Leah to talk all things 25th Amendment-- where it came from, why we probably won't see it invoked here and now, and why we should keep talking about it anyways. Favorite things: Leah: Democracy in Retrograde https://bookshop.org/p/books/democracy-in-retrograde-how-to-make-changes-big-and-small-in-our-country-and-in-our-lives-emily-amick/e3758f2959e47970?ean=9781668053485&next=t by Sami Sage and Emily Amick; “Drunks, Lampposts, and the Birthright Citizenship Case https://www.stevevladeck.com/p/219-drunks-lampposts-and-the-birthright” by Steve Vladeck; Levain Bakery’s carrot cake cookie https://levainbakery.com/products/carrot-cake-cookie?srsltid=AfmBOopnzaogwEaqQcvpxmfJgOQU_ODcP4uIat_fitEQYh7TRlROtK1H Katie: her dog Lucky https://www.instagram.com/katiephang/p/DW8_eHxEdvv/?hl=en Emily: Strangers https://bookshop.org/p/books/strangers-a-memoir-of-marriage-belle-burden/9576dba8b9d3ce7d?ean=9780593733318&next=t by Belle Burden; Smitten Kitchen’s zucchini butter spaghetti https://smittenkitchen.com/2021/06/zucchini-butter-spaghetti/; meet-ups with the EYP community Get tickets for STRICT SCRUTINY LIVE in New York City on June 20th. Learn more at http://crooked.com/events Vote for us in the Webbys https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2026/podcasts/shows/news-politics! Preorder Melissa’s book, The U. S. Constitution: A Comprehensive and Annotated Guide for the Modern Reader https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-constitution-annotated-for-the-contemporary-reader-melissa-murray/8e7f0dfa472fc3ca?ean=9781668221938&next=t&Preorder a signed paperback of Leah’s book, Lawless, here https://literatibookstore.com/book/signedlawless. Follow us onInstagram https://www.instagram.com/strictscrutinypodcast/?hl=en,Threads https://www.threads.net/@strictscrutinypodcast, andBluesky https://bsky.app/profile/strictscrutiny.bsky.social Join the Empire City Podcast Club from Crooked Ideas: https://crookedideas.org/empirecity/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Leah Litman?

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• 0:25Speaker 01

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• 0:30Speaker 02

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• 0:32Speaker 03

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• 0:33Speaker 02

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• 0:36Speaker 03

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• 0:38Speaker 01

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• 0:56Speaker 04

  Mr. Chief Justice, may I please forward? It's an old joke, but when a hard man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to have the last word.

• 1:09Speaker 05

  She spoke not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity. She said, "I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks."

• 1:39Leah Litman?

  Hello and welcome back to Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. I'm your lone regular host for today, Leah Litman, here to announce that I too have never been friends with Jeffrey Epstein. Indeed, I have also never had a relationship with Epstein or his accomplice Maxwell. Of course, my "I'm not friends with Epstein or Maxwell" shirt has a lot of people asking questions answered by my "I'm not buddy-buddy with sex traffickers" shirt. Anyways, the Supreme Court did not hear oral arguments last week, which means this is just going to be a legal news episode and with Kate and Melissa. I am delighted to be joined by two repeat guests to help me break down WTF happened last week. First, Katie Phang is going to talk with me about this week in the unitary executive, which, as far as I can tell, meant a lot of war crimes and Christian nationalism.

• 2:24Leah Litman?

  We'll also talk about a bad decision out of the Supreme Court you probably haven't heard about and some goings on in the courts of appeal. Then Emily Amick will explain what all the 25th Amendment talk is about and help me say goodbye to Justice Rebecca Bradley, aka Becky with the bad takes of the Wisconsin Supreme Court. But first up, joining me in the co-host chair is the wonderful Katie Phang, independent journalist and trial lawyer who hosts a YouTube channel, the Katie Phang Channel, that is part of the Midas Touch Network, where she delivers must-hear daily news analysis. Welcome back to the show, Katie.

• 2:56Speaker 06

  Oh, I'm happy to be back. I do think this would have been a good week for some Taylor news, but other than her planning her wedding right now, we don't have any updates.

• 3:06Leah Litman?

  Did you get to save the date?

• 3:08Speaker 06

  Um, I mean, are we, are we on like an NDA? Like, we're not supposed to talk about it, right?

• 3:13Leah Litman?

  I'll pretend that's what it is.

• 3:15Speaker 06

  Why are you outing us like this? I mean, hello. But I kind of feel like they would have taken the edge off of all, you know, the Christian nationalism genocide this week. But yes, I am thrilled to be here no matter what.

• 3:26Leah Litman?

  I should also say you can find Katie on Substack, Katie Phang, over at that platform as well. Okay, Katie, as you were kind of suggesting, this last week felt, at least to me, like one of the more unsettling, disorienting, unreal weeks that I can remember in a year and a half that has always felt that way, like with the president threatening war crimes, genocide, maybe using a nuclear weapon, and giving us a weird deadline slash timeline for him making a decision about whether to unleash all of this. It just felt surreal. How did you experience this past week?

• 4:00Speaker 06

  We didn't even have to make it through an entire week to be able to have that experience, right? I felt like, you know, Tuesday, well, we started it on Sunday, did we not? Easter Sunday with expletive laden posts threatening the continuation, I will say, of war crimes, because that is my opinion. I feel like the war crimes, it's not Not like they haven't started. They've been kind of ongoing. And then it kind of merged and kind of like evolved into will we have an act of genocide? By either by way of a nuclear warhead or maybe some huge ordinance, right? On Tuesday, but that became Taco Tuesday, which made me wonder, are we going to have a war crime Wednesday? I mean, I don't say this tongue in cheek, you know, you kind of say it tongue in cheek and I'm not trying to make light of it.

• 4:44Speaker 06

  But my biggest, and it's so funny. I just had a conversation with our good friend Ellie Mistal about it, not even an hour ago. I was like, were we going to wake up Wednesday morning and think like everything is back as business as usual? Even in the legal perspective, right? Because I felt like we, we, we were so close to the edge of that precipice. We didn't have to go over it, Leah, for us to have really crossed the Rubicon. I firmly believe in every way we have now crossed this line that we cannot go back to as a society and as a world. And now we sit in, in this midst of a ceasefire, non ceasefire and, and wonder what's next sadly.

• 5:25Leah Litman?

  Yeah. And so since you mentioned the posts, I just want to kind of recite them for our listeners who might have missed them. Because only the actual words can convey the nuttiness. So the Sunday one, I think is what read, quote, Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge day. All wrapped up in one in Iran. There will be nothing like it. Multiple exclamation points. Open the fucking straight, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell. Just watch praise be to Allah, President Donald J. Trump. That was Easter Sunday.

• 5:59Speaker 06

  I'm like, I just, I'm like, you know, sometimes when you have to laugh uncomfortably, like I'm laughing uncomfortably. Because I was in church, right? Like I was in church and you don't even have to be a Christian on Easter Sunday to be appalled by what it is. But it's just even the taunting at the end with the praise be Allah stuff just really was so beyond the pale, right?

• 6:21Leah Litman?

  Oh, yeah, completely. And then it was also Passover, you know, when he just kind of

• 6:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 6:28Leah Litman?

  unleashed this as well. But then the Tuesday morning one, the truth began, quote, "A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again." And then it continued, like, with an all caps, "Who knows? Maybe something revolutionarily wonderful can happen." Like teasing that maybe it will, maybe it won't. So Katie, you are, as I mentioned in the intro, a wonderful independent journalist. Like, how do you think about covering stuff like this? Because at least in my observations, it felt like there was a lot of sand washing of this in the media and coverage, like people talking about Trump escalation or adopting hard-line stances, when this is just straight-up violations of the laws of war, even the threats.

• 7:12Speaker 06

  Yes, and yes. I think this was the quintessential moment, and it should have been appreciated as an inflection point for all people that participate in media, whether it's legacy mainstream or independent, to have that gut check on how you cover Trump and this regime. And it doesn't have to be a partisan coverage. It has to be the truth, which is why I'm grateful that you took the time to walk through those Truth Social posts, because, as we know in the law, an admission by a party opponent is the most damning way to impeach someone, right? I mean, and I would love impeachment in every sense of the legal idea of impeachment, conviction, removal of a president. But, you know, to do so, using someone's own words

• 7:57Speaker 06

  against them is oftentimes the most powerful way in front of a judge or jury to be able to show that person's intent.

• 8:04Leah Litman?

  Is that big, "He admitted" energy, like Stringer Bell, "Are you truthing a motherfucking criminal conspiracy?" Because, as you know, like, for war crimes, you have to establish the actor's intent, and they're usually not just posting it.

• 8:16Speaker 06

  In writing, so then you don't even have to question it. Was it a he said, she said moment? Oh, no, it was in writing. And, you know, you don't even have to wonder if there's a mistaken attribution. This was not a, even if the idea sprung from the brain of Stephen Miller in this very perverse Greek mythological way, you didn't have to wonder because at the end of the day, the way it was presented and rolled out on Truth Social was epically, epically Trump, right? And all of the weird caps and syntax and lack of punctuation and run out shit. But it was the criminal intent that was so brazenly obvious. And, you know, there was nothing strategic about it either, right? I mean, some people are like, oh, he's just posturing.

• 8:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, posturing by the threat of the commission of a war crime is not posturing. It's the threat of a commission of a war crime. So, you know, knowing all of that, it really gave a lot of us, including myself, a very sobering cause for pause, which is, do you just shrug your shoulders and enjoy the breeze from the Overton window being moved so far into another country at this point that you would need a passport to live in it? Or do you actually say, we can't go back now? Like, this is where we are. And, and the fact that it wasn't enough for some, some members of Congress to immediately put their britches on and haul us back to DC was, I think, another galling takeaway from this week.

• 9:42Leah Litman?

  One of the worst responses was, I don't agree with genocide, but. Like, that was a sentence that some people actually uttered? And it's like, no, no, no, no, there's no but after that.

• 9:53Speaker 06

  There's no, there's no let's see's after that.

• 9:55Leah Litman?

  Just full stop. But, you know, I know in Arrested Development, the father says, I have the worst fucking attorneys. Every lawyer for the federal government and Donald Trump personally has to be saying, I have the worst fucking client with those posts. But a bit on those lawyers because last week, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch assumed the role of acting slash interim Attorney General. Katie, how did his premiere go in your eyes?

• 10:21Speaker 06

  Thank you, Shermae, I have another. Thank you, Sarah. May I have another? I was waiting for Todd to, in the, in the, in the theme of religion, I was waiting for him to whip out something and be like the self-flagellation of, "I'm so sorry, sir. I am here in piety to be able to do what you will." Anytime, I have never, and I've been on this earth for 51 years this year, Leah, I have never heard any iteration of an Attorney General, either an Assistant United States Attorney, an Attorney General, Deputy AG, whatever the hell you want to call them. I have never heard any of them say, "I love you, sir." I've never heard them say, "I love you."

• 10:53Leah Litman?

  You know what? Since you introduced it, let's play that clip. Because here is Todd Blanch on the guy upstairs, by which he means Donald Trump himself.

• 11:04Speaker 06

  Not God.

• 11:05Speaker 05

  I love working for President Trump. It's the greatest honor of a lifetime. And if President Trump chooses to keep me as acting, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate me, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate somebody else and I go back to being the Dag, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate somebody else and asks me to go do something else, I will say, "Thank you very much. I love you, sir." So I don't, I don't have any goals or aspirations beyond that.

• 11:30Leah Litman?

  That, he, he said that, literally.

• 11:32Speaker 06

  It's funny because I actually covered that presser in one of the episodes on my YouTube channel. The, the thrust of that was to talk about the hypocrisy of them announcing this new fraud enforcement division when Trump himself has pardoned or given clemency to more than 70 of his allies, donors, friends, and people that have paid to play to get access. And they've all been convicted of fraud. And that more than $700 million in restitution and fines has now gone by the wayside courtesy of Trump's clemency by way of pardons and commutations. That was the thrust of that episode I did. But of course, I played several clips from Blanch because it was a 24-minute press conference. And to give him credit, he took questions.

• 12:14Speaker 06

  And yet, the level of just obsequious, disgusting, kind of like, let me grovel. To say that I would love whatever you do to me was a little personal, Leah. I felt a little uncomfortable. It was a little like, I'm, I'm watching something.

• 12:29Leah Litman?

  I'm not in a cult of personality shirt, you know, asking questions answered by that shirt. I also did want to highlight one other clip that came up in Todd Blanch's media kind of bonanza this past week, which we will play here. And this is his take on ethics.

• 12:49Speaker 05

  I mean, look, if you if you were a prosecutor and you were trying to prosecute your boss, you have ethical duties as a lawyer that I think prevent you from continuing to work in that environment.

• 13:00Leah Litman?

  Katie, is that ethics?

• 13:02Speaker 06

  Uh, not not the kind that I learned or that I got tested on to become a member of a bar. And you know what's crazy is it dovetails with that with that clip is that he actually it's so funny. If you only heard some portions of what the man had to say, it sounded noble and with integrity, right? He's like, if you're going to work here, then you need to believe in things. But then and then if you were to cut it there, you'd be like, oh, that sounds so great. But then he keeps on going and saying, because the only agenda here is the president's agenda. And I was like, bro, whatever happened to the rule of law and your oath to the Constitution? But that just goes to show anybody, Leah, who piped up and said, ooh, maybe Todd Blanch is a better Pam Bondi, you are full of shit.

• 13:46Speaker 06

  Because there is no way Blanch is going to sit there and allow Bondi to outdo him when it comes to the ass kissing. Blanch is like, I get the gold medal, even though I am the guy responsible with Emile Bovee for my client to get 34 convictions on felonies in the only jury trial that Trump ever had. I have that claim to fame, but I will not allow Pammy Jo with the bad hair to outdo me when it comes to the ass kissing.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  In business, there's the easy way with Staples or the hard way. Hard means.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Hey, did you proof the signs before having them printed?

• 14:20Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Because we're having a clearance sale, not a Clarence sale.

• 14:24Speaker 03

  Oh, big difference.

• 14:26Speaker 01

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• 14:44Leah Litman?

  So another character in this clown show who had some things to say about the guy upstairs was Secretary of Defense slash Secretary of War Crimes, Pete Hegseth, Kegseth. I'm going to play you a kind of series of clips that he delivered at one of his pressers and then ask you, you know, to kind of react to the insanity. So here he is at one of them.

• 15:14Speaker 05

  Our troops, our American warriors deserve the credit. For this day. But God deserves all the glory. Tens of thousands of sorties, refuelings and strikes carried out under the protection of divine providence, a massive effort with miraculous protection.

• 15:35Leah Litman?

  It's been reported that Hegseth has held Christian worship services at the Pentagon. And in one of the recent ones that postdated the administration's war on Iran, here is some of what he said.

• 15:46Speaker 05

  First, a reading from the book of Psalms, chapter 18, verses 37 to 42. King David writes, "I pursued my enemies and overtook them and did not turn back till they were consumed."

• 15:59Leah Litman?

  He also recited a prayer given by a military chaplain to troops who participated in the capture and kidnapping of Nicolas Maduro.

• 16:05Speaker 05

  Almighty God, who trains our hands for war and our fingers for battle, you who stirred the nations from the north against Babylon of old, making her land a desolation where none dwell. Behold now the wicked who rise against your justice and the peace of the righteous. Snap the rod of the oppressor, frustrate the wicked plans and break the teeth of the ungodly. By the blast of your anger, let the evil perish. Let their bulls go down to slaughter, for their day has come, the time of their punishment. Pour out your wrath upon those who plot vain things and blow them away like chaff before the wind. Grant this task force clear and righteous targets for violence.

• 16:49Speaker 05

  Surround them as a shield, protect the innocent and blameless in their midst. Make their arrows like those of a skilled warrior who returned not empty-handed. Let every round find its mark against the enemies of righteousness and our great nation. Give them wisdom in every decision, endurance for the trial ahead, unbreakable unity,

• 17:10Leah Litman?

  Overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy. So Katie, I realize I am asking you some version of this question a lot, but like, how do you talk about or convey the enormity and gravity of this misuse of the military?

• 17:26Speaker 06

  Well, you always have to start with the the strong emphasis on the separation of church and state. Because that has gone out the window. Trump term 1.0, by the way, let's be clear. It's not just a novelty act that has jumped up right now in Trump term 2.0. But the separation of church and state is just the baseline where we start whenever we talk about this. But then the the thing about Hegseth is that, you know, I I was waiting for him to order everyone in that presser to bow their head in prayer. I mean, I was waiting for Trump to stand there with the collection plate at the end of the row. And then he pockets the money from the collection plate from the offerings. I mean, that's the type of thing I felt like was going to take place.

• 18:10Speaker 06

  But when you blur these lines, it's intentional. It is not, number one, is not sincere, because there is nothing about Pete Keg's breath that ever smacks of sincerity.

• 18:20Leah Litman?

  That's good. Keg's breath. That's better than Keg Seth. I love it. I'm going to credit you for it.

• 18:24Speaker 06

  You can totally do it. I'm sure I cribbed it from somebody else. But number two, the nefarious and very insidious part about all of this is the the allowance, if not the overt pushing of this violation of church and state, right? It ends up working towards their advantage toward the narrative of this is a holy war.

• 18:43Leah Litman?

  Yes.

• 18:43Speaker 06

  And when you reduce it into very basic precepts of good versus evil. And when you couch it in a way where we are leading a crusade against infidels, which, by the way, he does have a tattoo that says infidel.

• 18:55Leah Litman?

  He also has the has the book American Crusade, in which he basically argued the crusades were justified.

• 19:01Speaker 06

  And he also argued for war crimes.

• 19:05Leah Litman?

  Yep.

• 19:05Speaker 06

  That there's no such thing as a war crime. He's never met a war crime he didn't love, right? And that he didn't think people should be prosecuted as soldiers.

• 19:12Leah Litman?

  Yep.

• 19:12Speaker 06

  For war crimes because there are no rules of engagement, right? I mean, these are walking textbook, like, examples of illegal conduct. And then you just have him in an enabling role like Trump has all around him. So that Trump can continue to post the insanity he posts on Truth Social, which is, I'm going to commit a war crime. Why? Because my Secretary of Defense commits war crimes on the daily, based upon the fact that God has now told him, and by the way, the Pope has told both of them.

• 19:42Leah Litman?

  Oh, we're gonna get to the Pope. The Pope said no to all of this.

• 19:46Speaker 06

  Pope's like, yeah, peace out, brothers. That is not how God works here. But it is amazing that the entire, the base of MAGA, which likes to cloak itself, even if they're evangelical about it, in these, in these ideas of Christianity and good, that they don't, other than Tucker Carlson calling him the Antichrist. But they don't actually say, no, no, no, we don't live in this space. Because I think the evangelical, you know, I talked about this before, Leah, the evangelicals gave him a pass when they thought that he was going to get rid of reproductive rights.

• 20:17Leah Litman?

  Yep.

• 20:17Speaker 06

  And then when they, when they delivered Roe being overturned, I was like, aren't you done? Like, what else do you need from this man? Do you real, do you, oh, oh, I guess you want the infidels now? Like, you want the total eradication of the Middle East, I guess? I don't understand why they're not giving this.

• 20:31Leah Litman?

  They want a Christian nationalist country and army. You know, that's part of why Hagseth is firing all the senior military officials, right, who are black or female or trans, right? It, I just think it is terrifying because it all seems in service of making the federal government, including the military, a Christian nationalist force. Um, but because you introduced it, because the administration basically manages to turn everything upside down, civil rights and more, of course, they're doing this with religion too. Um, because all of this religious fervor is happening in the midst of reporting about this ghoulish war mongering the administration has directed at the Pope and the Vatican. Okay, so for listeners who might have missed this, the Free Press and other outlets reported that back in January,

• 21:12Leah Litman?

  the Undersecretary of Defense policy summoned the Pope's then ambassador to the United States and delivered some kind of threat laden lecture to him about how the United States has the military power to do whatever it wants and that the Catholic Church had to take a side. And then during the meeting, one of the US officials invoked the so-called Avignon Papacy, which for those of you who might not know, is when the French crown used military force to coerce the bishop of Rome to do France's bidding. They literally forced the Pope, the popes, multiple, to reside in France rather than Rome. And it entailed using military force against the Holy See. So part of what was striking to me about this, Katie, is that these guys actually seem to have read some history, at least selectively. Like,

• 21:56Leah Litman?

  they don't know shit about reconstruction, but they're all boned up on the Avignon Papacy? Like, what other history might they have or not have in their back pocket? Or what did you make of this reporting?

• 22:09Speaker 06

  Well, they initially pulled out Mein Kampf, and they were like, oh shit, wrong one, wrong, wrong one. Let me put that back into my pocket. What's in my?

• 22:18Leah Litman?

  You're gonna make me recite the succession. So you read Mein Kampf multiple times? For, for, for what? For what? Yeah.

• 22:26Speaker 06

  And what's the name of your dog?

• 22:29Speaker 06

  The name. It's a German shepherd? What's the name of your dog? And then I pull out, oh yeah, the Avignon Papacy. Let me, let me rely on this one, right? I mean, I, I don't, somebody just like Melania yesterday, somebody has given them talking points. And that is the reason why they feel comfortable using that. But it is remarkable because you know what they didn't bone up on? How about sovereignty? How about the Vatican fucking having its own sovereignty? How about it's the Pope, people? Like, it's like, I didn't have to tell you about Easter Sunday and not putting out an expletive late in Truth Social post, but it's the Pope. And it's our first American Pope. I mean, you gotta show some respect to the guy from Chicago.

• 23:12Leah Litman?

  And guess who the bad guys in the Avignon Papacy were? The governments attacking the Pope.

• 23:19Speaker 06

  But it's very much, it's very much, they look for the convenient historical precedent to bolster what they want. So when they look at, you know, France and you had, you know, the Sun King, right? And he literally lived under this premise that he was the closest thing to God on this earth. I mean, that was the justification among others for his royal presence. I mean, there is a reason why, you know, whenever all of these kingdoms and these empires, they were literally so kissing cousin adjacent to religion. And that is what we have here in the 24th century with Trump. The problem is, he is such a charlatan.

• 24:02Speaker 06

  And it is so obvious that he doesn't believe in what it is, that that actually reduces any credibility on any of these claims that they make under the guise of Christianity.

• 24:13Leah Litman?

  They do seem to have a weird fetishization for like the French monarchy for being America first. You know, given this, and then also the fact that like Donald Trump is partially inspired by the Palace of Versailles and like making some aspects of like his home or whatever resorts like gold, like anyways.

• 24:30Speaker 06

  Well, he's dissatisfied with America in general, right? Because he loves Viktor Orban, he loves Vladimir Putin. He loves the autocracies as they live in international countries. And that's why he wants to bring them here. He's like, let's, let's, there's no tariffs on autocracy. Let's bring them on in, right? Bring them on an American soil.

• 24:45Leah Litman?

  Yeah, but this meeting was apparently so alarming that it is a reason why the Pope did not go through with plans to visit the United States last year after being personally invited to attend, you know, America's 250th anniversary.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  In business, there's the easy way with Staples or the hard way. Hard means.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Hey, did you proof the signs before having them printed?

• 25:09Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Because we're having a clearance sale, not a Clarence sale.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  Oh, big difference.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Easy means professional looking prints every time. Don't choose hard, choose Staples. And now at Staples, get 25% back in points on all custom prints. That was easy. Shop Staples online, in store, or in the app. Ends 10/31, limit $250 in earned points. $100 minimum purchase. Exclusions apply. See app for details.

• 25:41Leah Litman?

  So we started off this conversation with truths and unfortunately that is how it's going to continue. So the president had some thoughts on the birthright citizenship argument, saying, quote, "It's too bad that the Supreme Court can't watch and study the Mark Levin show on the birthright citizenship scam." Note, I'm just not sure these guys need to pickle or marinate their brains even more in the right wing ecosystem. But then that truth continued and in a rare moment of clarity, the president closed it with, quote, "The country can only withstand so many bad decisions from a court that just doesn't seem to care," end quote. Stop clocks, et cetera. So I mentioned at the top that I kind of wanted to get our listeners up to speed about a bad decision that you probably

• 26:24Leah Litman?

  haven't heard about. And so I'm going to ask you for your take on this, Katie. And that's the Supreme Court's decision to deny certiorari that is not to hear the case of Skinner versus Louisiana. So bear with me for a bit. The summary is going to take a little. The case stems from several convictions for the murder of a Mr. Walbert. No physical evidence tied the two defendants, Mr. Weary and Mr. Skinner, to the murder. Instead, their convictions relied on the testimony of two people, Sam Scott and Eric Brown. Scott had been incarcerated and he came forward. He claimed to be an eyewitness to the crime, although his statement messed up the year of the crime, how the victim was killed, and where the body was found. Statement also didn't identify either defendant until later. And the other eyewitness, Eric Brown, gave an initial statement that also didn't

• 27:09Leah Litman?

  mention Mr. Skinner. Okay, so at the trial, the prosecution describes Scott as a, quote, "hero" whose fit of conscience broke open a cold case. And they said that Brown was getting, quote, "nothing" in exchange for his testimony. Slight problem. State withheld the fact that Scott was able to obtain a manslaughter plea that gave him credit for time served, such that he would be let out of prison after testifying. And the state didn't disclose that Brown had attempted to get a deal for his testimony and that police promised to talk to the district attorney about a sentence he was facing and additional charges. The state withheld other evidence, too, but you get the picture. Katie, how bad of a Brady violation is even just that?

• 27:55Speaker 06

  It's like open the dictionary to Brady and see Skinner versus Louisiana. No, I mean, it's, you know, you don't even have to, this is the miracle of this. You don't even have to be a lawyer to appreciate it, Leah, right?

• 28:09Leah Litman?

  Right.

• 28:09Speaker 06

  Just on its face, you don't even have to know the intricacies about the fourth, the fifth, the eighth, right? You don't, you don't have to worry, you don't even have to mind yourself on those amendments. You don't have to worry about the black letter law. It just in your gut doesn't sit right, you know? It's information that you would think would be necessary for a jury to make a decision as to the criminal culpability of a person. And the fact that this was intentionally withheld on its face should be enough procedurally to say, eh, this, this is not right. We can't move forward with this.

• 28:44Leah Litman?

  And, and part of what is so appalling is that indeed it was bad enough for the Supreme Court to intervene about a decade ago. So back in 2016, in Weary versus Kane, the court summarily reversed a Louisiana decision and vacated Mr. Weary's murder conviction on the ground that the state withheld evidence that would have seriously impeached the state's star witnesses. And the court said the conviction rested on the house of cards. But here's the thing, Mr. Skinner was convicted of the same crime as Mr. Weary, the same murder, on the basis of the same star witnesses' testimony. State withheld the same evidence and in Mr. Skinner's case, the Supreme Court just says, cert denied. And this is the kind of stuff the Supreme Court could have put on its docket rather

• 29:28Leah Litman?

  than the birthright citizenship matter. I mean, just this last week, the Washington Post ran a story saying that this court is the first since the 1950s to reject most civil rights claims involving women and minorities. And I just think people need to understand that the Supreme Court is bad, not just because of the things they do, but because of the things they decline to do as well, like how they choose to spend their time.

• 29:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, and this is a great example of why elections have consequences. People often think of it more in the narrow lane of who's my senator, right? Or who's my representative? I mean, and I always like to remind people that it is almost the tentacles of this are so far-reaching that with a Senate win in a man like Mitch McConnell, who ends up being the architect of the stacking of the federal bench, admittedly with the assistance and at the behest of Leonard Leo and the whole Federal Society energy, but you create a stacked federal bench, and then you create almost like a nuclear arms race when it comes to presidential administrations, right?

• 30:39Speaker 06

  Because it ends up being a race to see who can make the most appointments during their presidential term on these federal appointments, right? Because these are lifetime, and this is the other thing, these are lifetime appointments, even on the district court level, the trial court level, and then of course you end up with like Emile Bovin on the 3rd on the appellate court level, etc. But the fact of the matter that this 10 years ago, that the countenance of the Supreme Court of the United States 10 years ago in 2016 was materially different than what you have looked at now, post-Trump term 1.0, so that you end up with identical claims, identical facts, identical issues, identical evidence that was suppressed for one man but not for another, creates such an egregious inconsistent result that, as you said, sometimes it's

• 31:22Speaker 06

  not what we know, it's the stuff that we don't know about. It's the stuff that's happening behind the scenes, and I'm not talking shadow docket, I'm talking these types of decisions that are being rendered that are in, you know, three words, not even, or one sentences, you know, whatever, and that has far-reaching implications as well. And listen, I get it, it's Louisiana, which in and of itself, you know, is troubling, but I mean, how you have them on all fours, be the exact same facts, the exact same issues, and you screw over Skinner in that way, well, you know, there you go.

• 31:54Leah Litman?

  Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up the distinction between 2016 and 2026, because another thing our listeners might not know is that it takes four votes on the Supreme Court to hear a case. And what that means is the three Democratic appointees couldn't force the issue today in a way they could have in 2016 before Justice Ginsburg passed away. And to think that this differential treatment might come down to that is just gutting. You know, it just defies the idea of equal justice under the law.

• 32:29Speaker 06

  Which is why when we find out weeks after the fact that Alito ends up going to the hospital and stuff, right? And we, and we don't know about it in real time, I think is a sign of the fact that they're fully cognizant with Alito and Thomas being the, the, the literal elders on the court, right? The oldest people on the court. And they are two of the most conservative, if not the most conservative justices on the Supreme Court we've had. Like the fact that Alito goes to the hospital and it's kept silent for as long as it was, I think is a tell on their part that they know that there is something going on here, which is why we should be paying attention to these things. And it kind of gets us back to that big debate of should she or should she not have stayed,

• 33:14Speaker 06

  right? I mean, I hear that all the time. Should people stay? And there was a recent kind of debate over Sonia Sotomayor. Should she, should she go, whatever? So, I mean, it's kind of interesting how we all are now. It's almost like, you know, it reminds me of like when the emperor of China, somebody looked at his poop every day to see whether or not he was healthy. Well, I mean, are we going to get, are they at that point now or the Supreme Court justices?

• 33:36Leah Litman?

  These guys, at least Alito, already make us look at his shit almost any time he writes an opinion. So, yeah, no, you set me up for that one. But speaking of, you know, deciding whether to stay or whether to go, I wanted to note a notable retirement announcement that came out of the Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit. And it was this, Judge Erickson on the Eighth Circuit announced that he's taking senior status. Not notable, although choosing to give the madman threatening nuclear war the option to name your replacement is a choice. But the interesting thing is that Erickson was actually appointed to the Eighth Circuit by Donald Trump during his first term. So the guy's been on the Eighth Circuit bench for less than eight years.

• 34:16Leah Litman?

  What did you make of that or think when you kind of saw this guy was like quickly, you know, stepping down?

• 34:24Speaker 06

  Well, he is one of several that are actually kind of running to the exits, but not in a way that we should find reassuring. Erickson's vacancy on the 8th will create the opportunity for Trump to appoint his sixth nominee judge to this bench. And his four prior that have been the white men that the ABA deemed to be not qualified to serve. And by the way, we should still go by the ABA qualifications, even though the DOJ and the United States Senate have decided on the Republican side not to do it. They've all been white male. There have been no women. There have no been women of color that have come from Trump. And so there have been other circuit appellate court judges that have also said,

• 35:09Speaker 06

  I think I'm going to take retirement now, or I'm going to go to senior status, because they know that this creates another opportunity for Trump to put someone on the bench, which again, elections have consequences. If you have people that are elected to either the Oval Office, and where you get a Katanji Brown Jackson, courtesy of former President Joe Biden, or if you end up with a Donald Trump, where you end up with a Brett Kavanaugh, right? I mean, these are material things that impact your life. And you know, if there's any silver lining to all of this, Leah, and I think you of all people would agree, especially on this pod. If anything, the Trump terms, as horrific as they have been, have actually brought, I think, more knowledge and interest

• 35:54Speaker 06

  in the Supreme Court of the United States that we've ever had in the history of that court. So much so that people are understanding that these Supreme Court justices of nine have so much power over us as Americans that we should be paying attention to our elections and who gets in positions to vote these unqualified people through in the United States Senate.

• 36:15Leah Litman?

  So since you mentioned unqualified, I wanted to note one other development in the Court of Appeals, and that's out of the Ninth Circuit. So a two-judge panel of the Ninth Circuit, both judges Trump appointees, including one rated unqualified, struck down a California law that sought to limit the amount of profits that dialysis providers could get from patients who receive assistance from nonprofit charities in paying their health insurance. So the law essentially imposed like a rate cap, had a disclosure requirement and whatnot. And the thinking was like this package of requirements would remove financial incentives to steer patients to specific healthcare coverage and, you know, by reimbursing dialysis clinics at Medicare rates.

• 36:56Leah Litman?

  Katie, want to guess why these two geniuses said this statute attempting to rate cap dialysis provision was unconstitutional?

• 37:08Speaker 06

  I'm gonna guess that it's the flavor de jour lately, which is the First Amendment.

• 37:15Leah Litman?

  That it's so sad because that amendment has become like a punchline, like the Mr. Krantz. I feel like we need a First Amendment for Freaks segment because this is what they're doing.

• 37:26Speaker 06

  They've weaponized and bastardized the First Amendment. I mean, you don't have to look very far from what, was it a week ago that we had the conversion therapy decision from SCOTUS, right? I mean, and that was under the guise of the First Amendment as well, right? I mean, the First Amendment has now been weaponized and bastardized in a way that I find to be remarkable, especially for the Republicans to be deploying it in this way.

• 37:47Leah Litman?

  Yeah. No points for guessing one member of the panel, who of course was Judge Lawrence Van Dyke, the creator of the amisexual porn video and the author of the opinion that contained swinging dicks, who also managed to be the speaker at the National Federalist Society Convention about, you guessed it, the proper role for the judiciary. The jokes write themselves. So Katie, do you want to share with our listeners your favorite things over the last week?

• 38:16Speaker 06

  I would say that as always, a top, a pole position is always going to be my dog Lucky. And the reason why is the following. It has been an incredibly trying week. And I will say, if there's one thing that always comes from spending time with my dog, it is a reminder that unconditional love does exist. And two, that we should aspire to be as amazing people as our dogs think we are, which I think anybody could believe in and understand. I think the other kind of favorite thing that I had from this week is, I felt like, I went to this, this conference, Lea, in Boston.

• 38:58Speaker 06

  And it was around a whole bunch of very smart, like-minded, pro-democracy people. And I left that conference, understanding that we are not limited in geography, in terms of our desires to make our country a better place. Like, sometimes we feel like, I, for example, feel like a blue dot in a red sea. But it has been kind of like a one-two punch, in a good way, of leaving No Kingsday 3.0 in Minneapolis-St. Paul and going to this event in Boston. Like, it, it reminds me that there, there are these pockets that are growing of sane, very, very motivated people that understand what's at stake. And so, no snark, just genuine love, affection, and appreciation

• 39:40Speaker 06

  for the idea that we are here to sustain each other in all the right ways. And that is exactly how I managed to get through the insanity of this week.

• 39:48Leah Litman?

  Well, I love that. Thank you so much for joining. As always, we truly love having you here.

• 39:54Speaker 06

  I'm always speechless at the end of spending time with you. I feel like I live in the minutia. And then I spend time with you and I'm like, I really don't live in this level of minutia.

• 40:05Leah Litman?

  My personality is basically in the footnotes, in the footnotes.

• 40:08Speaker 06

  No, listen, Caroline products, right? Footnote.

• 40:13Speaker 06

  If there's anything I remember, discreet insular minority. Yeah, listen, all kidding aside, like, I know it's a win when I leave feeling smarter. And I've also got to spend time with one of my favorite people, who's a fellow dog lover and a fellow Taylor Swift fan. And so I'm always grateful.

• 40:32Leah Litman?

  Well, thank you so much again, Katie. Listeners, again, please check out and subscribe to Katie's YouTube channel, as well as her Substack. She manages to kind of thread that needle between keeping you informed without making you insane. A true gift. So, coming up next, Emily Amick will join to talk the 25th Amendment and what shouting into the void does.

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• 42:02Leah Litman?

  Before we get to my interview with Emily Amick, a point of personal privilege, where I get to talk about a state race here in Michigan with pretty big national implications. So, right now, there is a competitive primary in Michigan to be the Democratic candidate for Attorney General of Michigan. And at the end of last week, the Trump administration sued one of the people running to be the Democratic candidate for Attorney General of Michigan. And that's Eli Savitt, the current Washtenaw County prosecutor. You scared, Donald? Seriously, we know Trump targets the fighters. People challenge him, like Representative La Monica McIver, Jim Comey, New York Attorney General Letitia James. Now he's targeting Eli Sabat, who is running to be Michigan's

• 42:45Leah Litman?

  next Attorney General. Our listeners know, we've had Eli on the show before, when he talked about how he would protect LGBT rights as Michigan's next Attorney General. Disclosure, he's also a law school classmate of mine. And the lawsuit against Eli is unhinged. It's about immigration policies, and it faults Eli as Washtenaw County Prosecutor, forget this, enforcing the Fourth Amendment, saying it's a problem that Washtenaw County requires judicial warrants for some immigration enforcement. When did it become unconstitutional to enforce the Constitution? Inquiring minds would like to know. The lawsuit also complains that Eli isn't handing over information to ICE to help them in their dragnet immigration

• 43:27Leah Litman?

  enforcement, when we have all seen what federal immigration enforcement looks like: hauling people out of cars, pepper spraying children, zip tying children, and shooting and killing civilians. So basically, they are also saying it is illegal to stand up for public safety. Again, we've had Eli on the show. He's talked about protecting rights from the lingering specter of fascism. And seriously, now it makes me wonder, Donald, you scared? And now I am delighted to be joined by Emily Amick, the Emily behind Emily in Your Phone, former counsel to Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, and the co-author of the recent

• 44:10Leah Litman?

  New York Times bestseller Democracy in Retrograde, the paperback version of which is coming out this month. Welcome back to the show, Emily. Hi, Lee. I'm so excited to be here. I am very excited to have you because this past week, there's been a lot of talk about the 25th Amendment, and you wrote a great piece on it. So I was hoping we could walk through what the 25th Amendment is, why it's come up, and why we should be talking about it. So I guess let's just start with the basics. So what is the 25th Amendment? Yeah. So after JFK was Assassinated. Everyone was like, wait, whoopsie doodle. What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen if the president is incapacitated and we don't have anyone leading the country?

• 44:52Leah Litman?

  Maybe there should be some procedures that we should have. And they were like, And the wild thing is that there were actually like assassinations and whatnot before that point. And it's like, they didn't realize it then, right? Like, you know, Garfield, Grover Cleveland and, and no, no, no, no, no. But it was J. Okay. And BD, no big deal. We're just, it's fine. Someone, there's a man there. Someone will do it. Um, and so they were like, let's do a thing. Let's do an amendment and set up a procedure. And the procedure is the vice president has to start this. And he has to get a group of buddies together. So he has to get either part of the cabinet or as Jamie Raskolyn is now circulating,

• 45:32Leah Litman?

  a congressionally designated group of people all get together. They send a letter to Congress being like, hey, guys, the president's in a bad, in a bad way. It's not going well over here. And then the president could be like, actually, I'm fine. Um, and stop it. And then the group can once again be like, no, Congress, we think our buddy is doing poorly. We really need you to do a vote on this.

• 45:57Leah Litman?

  See the truth posts. See the truth posts. Have you gone to www dot truth dot com? I don't even know what the website is. Um, and then Congress has to vote on it and it's two third majority. And, uh, and then the vice president is the president. And, and so, you know, invoking the 25th amendment has never actually happened when Reagan had the attempted assassination. There was discussions about it, but, um, it is, uh, you know, my posture on this is that talking about the 25th, I'll like, cut to the chase, which is my posture is that like, talking about the 25th amendment isn't really about invoking the 25th amendment. It's about talking about it.

• 46:39Leah Litman?

  Okay. So, so then I think you've begun to answer the question that I wanted to ask, which is, you know, as you kind of laid out. Out, of course, invoking the 25th Amendment requires the actions of JD Vance and the Cabinet, which is the Cabinet of loyalists and hacks. Yeah, JD's not like going against Trump, I don't think. Right, exactly, exactly. Right. Neither is like Pete Kegseth, right? Neither is, right? Like all of the other weirdos in the Cabinet. I mean, Todd Blanch is acting Attorney General now, right? Like, that's not happening. So then, like, if the actual 25th Amendment, Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, the process you laid out, is not going to materialize, like, why is talking about the 25th Amendment still important?

• 47:24Leah Litman?

  Well, and, you know, the other thing to point out is, the other available option is impeachment. Right. Which you have discussed probably for hours and hours and hours of your life at this point. Which, again, requires majority of the House, two-thirds of the Senate, a number that is unattainable. Even if it could be started, which functionally it can't be, because Republicans control both chambers. And, and so, because a lot of people are saying, like, don't talk about the 25th, talk about impeachment. And it's like, guys, same, same. You know what I mean? Right. Same, same. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and to a significant degree, Democrats have not been talking about impeachment or 25th, because they want to focus on the issues and affordability and, and sort of Trump's actual actions.

• 48:09Leah Litman?

  But what the 25th allows you to talk about, impeachment requires, like, specific actions that are bad. And what we saw from the first two impeachments was, none of that really pierced the public consciousness in a really significant way. But 25th is just like, this dude's incompetent. This dude's nutter butters. And that does pierce the public consciousness and gets to a general feeling of the zeitgeist, which is like, I don't like having this guy have the nuclear codes. Yeah, right. Like, he is literally threatening nuclear war. Right. And he vacillates back and forth between, oh, the strait is open, the strait is not open, charging rates, not charging rates. And that sort of erratic behavior, you would think, might cause people

• 48:51Leah Litman?

  Some concern. I mean, we spent months and endless news cycles and media cycles talking about Joe Biden's mental acuity. So we know this is a potential topic of interest. And that's interesting with the 25th amendment opens that door in a way that impeachment might not. Yeah, I mean, one of the things Republicans can do really well is make something like sleepy Joe happen, right? Whereas like the Democratic base is like, no, we want something policy. We want procedure. We want actionable things like we want to see reality. They won't just participate in the sort of narrative building that is the foundation for any action and any political change, right? Which is one of our problems.

• 49:37Leah Litman?

  Yeah, no. And also, like, these things are just inextricably related, right? The fact that we have a mad king, right, just starting baseless wars and causing problems is part of why the economy is going to shit, right? And gas prices are up and all of these things are more difficult. So I guess like another part of me was thinking about the 25th amendment as a almost stalking horse for the underlying issues, like talking about the 25th amendment is in some ways an opening to discussing all of the ways that Donald Trump just makes things in our lives worse by being a mad king. Yeah. And, you know, the other thing about 25th amendment is it it's sort of algorithmically optimized. There are certain types of conversations that work really well

• 50:20Leah Litman?

  on social media. And and it's hard to articulate what those things are. If, you know, I spend an egregious amount of time on the internet, I sort of have this feel for it at this point. And it is something that has legs. And there's sort of a reticence to participate in these campaigns, I think amongst people because they can feel that that's what it is. But it works. And which is why I sort of am like, let's lean in, let's do it. Let's do it. This is a good idea. Yeah, no, that's so interesting. And I don't know if it's because it's, you know, partially a legalistic culture. If it's partially the promise of a solution, if it's partially, as you were saying, a way of talking about Trump's unfitness. But you're right, like, it does seem to garner a kind of attention. Yeah.

• 51:05Leah Litman?

  That just saying, right, like, Trump is threatening nuclear war somehow doesn't. Yeah. People love, like, zingers. You know what I mean? Yeah. They love terms that, I mean, again, that's why they like Sleepy Joe. You know what I mean? It somehow really gets at the heart of the emotional resonance of an issue. Less so the, like, precise nature of it. And I think for a lot of people, 25th Amendment feels, it feels validating to their pre-existing belief that he's a mad king. And then it feels hopeful that there is a solution to a problem. Yeah. And I should say, I feel like we have been trapped in this, I don't know, 18 months of news stories about how Democrats are looking for people who can help with messaging.

• 51:48Leah Litman?

  And influencers and whatnot. And I just want to point out, I'm talking to one right here, and that, like, her ideas are spelled out in democracy and retrograde. So maybe, like, send it to your congressional representatives and tell them, right? It's right here, anyway. I, in fact, have been writing about this almost every day for eight years. Yes. And begging Democrats to invest in the influencer infrastructure for eight years. And they say, you're a middle-aged woman. Who knows? Right, exactly. Therefore irrelevant. You're irrelevant. You're just gonna be the most important voting block in 2028, but who gives a fuck? Yeah. Um, you know, the 25th Amendment, kind of keeping it in the conversation, also reminded me of something that happened this past week,

• 52:33Leah Litman?

  which was Justice Sotomayor continuing to drag Brett Kavanaugh for Kavanaugh stops. So she said at a recent appearance. Yeah, I know. Quote, "I had a colleague in that case who wrote, you know, these are only temporary stops." This is from a man whose parents were professionals and probably doesn't really know any person who works by the hour, end quote. Like, it's a way of keeping something in the conversation, and I want to.

• 52:56Leah Litman?

  I love that. But then a part of me was also terrified. Like, why is she making these statements now? What did Brett Kavanaugh do this time? Did that cross your mind? What did he say to her at last week's dinner party? Exactly. What did he say at conference? What crazy vote did he cast? I don't know.

• 53:14Leah Litman?

  But I think that, you know, the other thing that this is doing, that she is doing and the 25th Amendment is doing is setting a foundation, right? So future clerks drafting a decision on that matter will see her comment and think about it, right? Like, it affects the Overton window, I like to talk about a lot. Public conversations do directly relate to policy and law. We see that in judicial decision making, right? Like, in a very literal sense and in a figurative sense, figuratively, things change. I mean, Obergefell is like the greatest example, I think, of a decision that says, like, actually, society has changed. And we are going to decide the law differently. Of course, we have now a Supreme Court conservative majority that doesn't

• 53:59Leah Litman?

  agree that life should change. And they say, actually, let's go back to the time when most of you people had nothing, no rights. But putting that aside, you know, I think that that is one of the things that Justice Sotomayor is doing there, is saying, like, I want to make sure next time this comes up, people take note of this one very specific thing and maybe feel a little bit guilty. But And understand the absurdity of it. Right. Not that Kavanaugh would ever take a moment to think about hourly wage workers in his life. No, no. But maybe someone else would. That would also require Kavanaugh taking a moment to think. Also, it might be beyond capacity. Hard for him. Right. Speaking of scary things, though, Emily, when you joined us at a live show,

• 54:42Leah Litman?

  we played a game with you. And I wanted to close this episode with a little game of helping us say goodbye to Rebecca Bradley, Becky with the Bad Takes, soon to be the former justice

• 54:55Leah Litman?

  Of the Wisconsin Supreme Court because Chris Taylor won the election, meaning there is now a five to two progressive majority on that Wisconsin Supreme Court. And I don't know. Are you up for this? I'm so excited and I'm like so excited for Wisco. Um, and every time, every time I hear the nihilism of the Democratic base, nothing can change. Everything is broken. No one will ever do anything. I'm like, false, incorrect. Like, look at what we've been doing with the Wisconsin Supreme Court. Elon has had invested millions, tens of millions of dollars and we're still winning. You know, like you, and we're winning on good issues, running good people. It's very, very possible if you run good races with good people.

• 55:39Leah Litman?

  Yeah. And, and on that note, I mean, the Wisconsin Supreme Court was the only court in the country that actually cast any vote in support of Donald Trump's theories in the aftermath of the 2020 presidential election to try to throw out votes. They actually came within one vote, one single vote of doing so. And now that court has whipsawed, right? Shifted so dramatically in favor of this progressive direction. And that is over a period of six years. So we can do hard things. And the optimistic note Emily sounded again, you can find in democracy and retrograde. Yeah. It's I, you know, and democracy and retrograde, it's so in talking about these Wisconsin Supreme Court

• 56:19Leah Litman?

  elections, I wrote that book and one of the people who I've, um, you know, seen develop her investment in her community over these years, her name's Kate Duffy. And she started supporting Mandela Barnes, uh, Senate race, doing Moms for Mandela in Wisconsin and has now gotten involved in all of these Supreme Court races, making political content, um, on Instagram and working on the ground, organizing and like, I have seen democracy and retrograde in action with everything that Kate is doing. She got involved in her community on issues she cared about. She spoke out. She found community. One of my big like premises of the book is like, there's actually a lot of joy to find in this work. And Kate and I are like really good friends now and we have a lot of joy

• 57:02Leah Litman?

  in everything we do together. And so I think it's the perfect example. And she's now working, like they're winning. And what a pleasure that is. Right. And so speaking of finding joy and finding joy in winning, let's Shift to dancing on the judicial, I don't know, office grave of one Rebecca Bradley. Okay, so Emily, true or false? In a 1992 column, Rebecca Bradley argued that under a Clinton presidency, one would be better off contracting AIDS than developing cancer, because those afflicted with the politically correct disease will get all of the funding. True or false? True.

• 57:43Leah Litman?

  Oh, yeah, true, although when she ran for the Wisconsin Supreme Court, she indicated that since that column, she began a process of change in her life.

• 57:56Leah Litman?

  She's like, I can't say these thoughts out loud. I have to keep them inside. Exactly. That was the process of change. Yeah. Um, okay, next one, true or false? Rebecca Bradley once called the progressive members of the Wisconsin Supreme Court, quote, "handmaidens of the Democratic Party."

• 58:15Leah Litman?

  False. True. Oh. She did that. She did that. Yeah. Yeah. That's a work. Oh, yeah. Okay, next one, true or false? In an opinion, Rebecca Bradley wrote, quote, "DEIA is a disguise for dangerous identity politics."

• 58:37Leah Litman?

  I mean, the thing is, I wouldn't put anything past this woman, so I'll go with true.

• 58:43Leah Litman?

  True. She did. Yep, she did that one. Sure. Okay. Sure. What a... It's not even funny. You know what I mean? Make a good joke, girl. Okay, well, maybe this one will be a joke, but true or false? Rebecca Bradley edited her own Wikipedia page. True? True. She did that one, too. She's a busy, busy lady. Okay.

• 59:11Leah Litman?

  So pathetic. I know. Like, I hate, I'm like, always so happy to win, especially when it's against these freaking losers. I'm also so happy to be reminded that they truly can't handle criticism, right? Like, she edited her own Wikipedia page. She decided not to run for reelection rather than be... In the minority on the Wisconsin Supreme Court. So it has that going for it. I mean, she's barely, she was mostly appointed. She only ran one time, right? Right, exactly. She was appointed by Scott Walker. Yep. Okay. Next one, true or false? In a single opinion, Rebecca Bradley cited Charles Love, Race Crazy, BLM 1619 and the

• 59:53Leah Litman?

  Progressive Racism Movement, said, "We live in a quote, increasingly race obsessed society." And, and cited Ben Shapiro, "How to debate leftists and destroy them." Ugh, true. True. Single opinion. All of that and more. Think about that fact as you listen to her takes in a recent-ish interview here. As a justice, I do not share my personal beliefs about anything that is political. I'm dismayed that it, that issues are being talked about under the guise of values. Did that hit for you? Yeah, so hard. Every accusation is a confession.

• 1:00:38Leah Litman?

  And now our own little montage to say goodbye to Becky with the bad takes. I also think the way Judge Crawford ran her race was disgusting. She slandered a good man, Judge Schimmel. We saw this last time against Justice Kelly. It's really sickening. How are you feeling about working with Susan Crawford on the Wisconsin Supreme Court? I'm not looking forward to working with her. But it's okay to usurp the legislature's, it's okay to usurp the legislature's constitutional mandate to redistrict, but it's not okay for the court to, I'm not following your argument. It doesn't make any sense. I'd like an answer to my question, Justice, first.

• 1:01:22Leah Litman?

  I think it's because the legislature was a party. Are you arguing the case? And here she is, the very beginning of the oral argument concerning Wisconsin's state legislative.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Good morning and may it please the court. The Wisconsin Constitution's redistricting requirements are not optional. Counsel, where were you? Where were your clients two years ago? Because we've already been through this. Redistricting happens once every 10 years.

• 1:01:51Leah Litman?

  Just frothing at the mouth to get in there.

• 1:01:56Leah Litman?

  Emily, final words on Wisconsin, 25th Amendment, Democracy in Retrograde, or anything else? I guess the thing that I have to say and the reason I wrote Democracy in Retrograde, right, which is all about the fact that like unfortunately has continued to become more true as the book has been out over the last couple of years is that like it doesn't, we don't have to stay in retrograde. We can change things and it is very, very possible. And it just requires everyone to do something. Everyone doesn't have to do everything. It's just we need everyone to do something. And those things can be things that bring you joy and make you happy and add like incredible value to your life and enrich our communities.

• 1:02:40Leah Litman?

  And I very much have hope and faith that we will get there, which is a weird thing to say for someone who's been a practicing lawyer for 20 years. We are the most negative. It's like us and dentists. We're like the most negative people.

• 1:02:56Leah Litman?

  But, you know. I'm friends with my dentist, so that tracks.

• 1:03:01Leah Litman?

  But, but it, you know, I, I feel confident that we are on the right side of history and we will prevail. And, and I, I just, the question is how quickly that will happen.

• 1:03:13Leah Litman?

  Well, that is a terrific place to end and actually a perfect segue to ending the episode with our favorite things. So I'll go first and share my favorite things over the last week. So one of course is Emily's co-written book, which is co-written with Sammy Sage, Democracy in Retrograde. Again, get the paperback version. I feel like it's the perfect thing in the lead up to the midterms to really like light the fire under your butt and whatnot. And now that it's a paperback, there's like a personality quiz and lots of worksheets. So it's going to be really easy to fill out. And if you have someone in your life who has been struggling politically, it's the perfect gift. I like that struggling politically is a nice way of putting it. Also wanted to recommend a post from a friend of the show.

• 1:03:56Leah Litman?

  Show Professor Steve Vladeck over at One First, Drunks, Lampposts, and the Birthright Citizenship Case, which kind of talks about the role of academics in normalizing the administration's unhinged theories about birthright citizenship. Some other favorites would be the News Chyrons. As Melania said, she never had a relationship or friendship with Epstein or Maxwell. Some of them were truly next level.

• 1:04:21Leah Litman?

  Also, Levine Bakery, I don't even know if you, that's how you say it, but they released a seasonal carrot cake cookie. What? Yeah, I know. Public service announcement. Get on that.

• 1:04:34Leah Litman?

  And last but not least, please vote for us in the Webby Awards. Just a few days left to vote and we will include a link in the show notes. Vote for them. So Emily, how about your favorite? Okay, I have four things. Okay. I wrote on a post-it note in preparation for this event. I love it. Number one, the book that I have called Book Club Final Boss. Have you read Strangers by Bell Burden? Yes. Yeah, I mean, everyone I know, they pick it up. They said they read it in one sitting. Yes. And then the book takes seven hours to read and then you spend seven hours talking about it with your friends. And there's so much to discuss and that makes it all the more delicious. So that is thing number one. Thing number two is it's spring, which means I get to have my favorite recipe,

• 1:05:19Leah Litman?

  which is the Smitten Kitchen Zucchini Butter Spaghetti. Are you, are you a Smitten Kitchen? I love Smitten Kitchen and I also love zucchini squash. And making recipes with that, my partner doesn't like it and it's so frustrating. So your partner may like this because it doesn't taste like zucchini. I put in extra zucchini, you like caramelize the zucchini. I do recommend using a fresh pasta, like a fresh linguine. I think it really makes it taste better to have that bite. Highly recommend everyone try out that recipe. Third thing is, I probably said this last time I was here because it's always on my list. I'm picking my needlepoint back up and I'm always, I'm always putting it down and then being like, you know, it would bring me joy.

• 1:06:04Leah Litman?

  Continuing to work on this project that I've been working on for seven years.

• 1:06:08Speaker 06

  Whatever sparks choice.

• 1:06:09Leah Litman?

  You know what I mean? I need a little, I need a little meditative time. And the fourth and final thing is I have started to do meetups with my community, my UIP community.

• 1:06:20Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:06:20Leah Litman?

  And we're doing one in San Francisco in a couple of days and like over 80 people have RSVP'd.

• 1:06:26Speaker 06

  That's amazing.

• 1:06:26Leah Litman?

  And the point is, is there's no point. We're just like hang out and meet and everyone's going to make new friends.

• 1:06:32Speaker 06

  But it's energizing.

• 1:06:33Leah Litman?

  It's, and I think that people are really, they want IRL, you know, I am so terminally online, but we want third places. You want time to be with other people and have fun and talk about your interests. You know, I'm going to force 17 different people to talk about my needlepoint. That's fine.

• 1:06:53Leah Litman?

  And, and your dog or whatever it is, you know what I mean? And I think people are really yearning for that. And that is part of the social fabric that makes us like politically potent and viable. And there's a real value to it. And there's a real value into finding like joy and happiness points in our lives, especially when the world is so hard right now. So I'm super excited. I'm going to do one in New York. I'm going to do one in Boston to get to do these things, which I haven't been doing the last couple of years. And so it's bringing me incredible joy that I get to do them now.

• 1:07:26Speaker 06

  That's great. Emily, thank you so much for joining again. We always love having you.

• 1:07:31Leah Litman?

  Happy to be here.

• 1:07:32Speaker 06

  And finally, some housekeeping before we go. One, why does it seem like the Supreme Court always saves its worst decisions for June? Maybe the first gentle breezes of summer fill them with inexplicable rage. We can't say for sure. In any case, this June, the three of us at Strict Scrutiny are headed to New York City to break down all the cases in question and whatever horrors the Roberts Court has in store for us with judicial expertise and those petty jokes at Samuel Alito's expense in equal measure. Honestly, maybe more of the second. But you can catch Strict Scrutiny live at the historic Gramercy Theater on June 20th as part of the Bad Decisions Tour. Tickets are on sale now. Grab them at crooked.com/events. Also, if you've been following- Following the latest headlines around policing, ICE,

• 1:08:16Speaker 06

  and immigration enforcement, the Empire City Podcast Club from Crooked Ideas is the place to fully unpack it. Each week, host Chenjerai Kumanyika and special guests dig into the systems behind those stories, how this power was built, who it serves, and what it means for public safety right now. Every session focuses on a new theme, with space to connect the dots and ask bigger questions. Whether you've been tracking every headline or just starting to tune in, you can be part of the conversation. We'll send a reminder before we kick things off. The next session is tomorrow. The club will send a reminder before they kick things off, the next session is tomorrow, April 14th, at 5:00 PM Pacific, 8:00 PM Eastern. Sign up at crookedideas.org/empirecity.

• 1:09:05Speaker 06

  Strict Scrutiny is a Crooked Media production, hosted and executive produced by me, Leah Litman, Melissa Murray, and Kate Shaw. Our senior producer and editor is Melody Rau. Michael Goldsmith is our producer. Jordan Thomas is our intern. Music by Eddie Cooper. Production support from Katie Long and Adrian Hill. Matt Jacro is our head of production. And thanks to our digital team, Ben Heathcote, Johanna Case, Kenny Moffett, and Eric Schut. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Strict Scrutiny in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube, at Strict Scrutiny Podcast, so you never miss an episode. And if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us. It really helps.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

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