What Should Be The Last Cheese On Earth? (Reheat)

This week we’re reheating two call-in episodes from 2015. First: Two Sporkful listeners call in to debate the best way to make enchiladas: flat (lasagna style) or rolled. Can Dan's advice restore peace and save Enchilada Party Night? Next up: Adam and Jonathan in L. A. call in to debate a dystopian future with only one cheese and to explain why cheddar is like Hugh Grant.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

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• 0:45Dan Pashman?

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• 1:41Dan Pashman?

  Hey, everyone, it's Dan here. And since the very, very early days of The Sporkful, right up until today, the show's changed and evolved a lot. But one thing that has been consistent is that every so often, we open up the phone lines and take your calls. Maybe it's sort of like a throwback, you know, because I grew up listening to radio, like sports talk radio or news talk radio, and I love a good call-in segment. So, I love taking calls. We've been doing it, like I said, for a very long time. And these episodes never get old because like, a lot of these debates- Are evergreen, classic debates and things that we need to resolve, whether it's relationships or food feuds, or wherever it may be. So today, we're going to reheat not one, but two classic episodes where I take your calls. In the first half of this reheat, you're going to hear two friends who are not just debating,

• 2:25Dan Pashman?

  they are formally competing over the best way to make enchiladas. Then in the second half, we'll have another episode we're reheating all about cheese-related call-in questions. This features another pair of food-obsessed pals who've been arguing literally for years about whether mozzarella or cheddar would make for a better desert island cheese. We tackle the big questions here on the Sporkful, I think is what I'm driving at. So you're going to love these two call-in shows. And remember, if there's an episode you want us to reheat, let me know. We take requests. Drop me a line at [email protected]. Thanks so much and enjoy.

• 3:06Dan Pashman?

  From WNYC, this is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. I'm taking your calls today. Let's get to the phones. Hi, who's this?

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Hi, Dan. It's Jane from Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I'm calling because we have quite the debate in our friend group. I am a native Texan, and I have always eaten my enchiladas in the rolled format. However, my friend Ricky is all about the flat enchiladas. She swears by them, and she's a native New Mexican. So we're wondering if you'd be able to kind of settle this debate.

• 3:42Dan Pashman?

  Ricky, are you on the line, too?

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:44Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so we have Jane and Ricky, and Jane says enchiladas should be rolled. And Ricky, you make them flat, almost like, more like a lasagna. Is that right?

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah.

• 3:57Dan Pashman?

  So first of all, I have to admit, I am not an expert on the regional variations of enchiladas. So like, Ricky, you're from New Mexico. Like, is that the way everyone does it in New Mexico?

• 4:09Speaker 02

  You get rolled and flat in New Mexico.

• 4:11Dan Pashman?

  But so it's not like you're the only person who does this?

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Not even close.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  But as a native Texan, I have never seen a flat enchilada.

• 4:23Dan Pashman?

  And tell me about the first time that you guys realized you had this different approach to enchiladas.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  One night Ricky brought over some hatch chilies from New Mexico. And my roommate and I were talking about how we were going to make some enchiladas the next day with these hatch chilies. And so we said, oh yeah, we're gonna make some, you know, nice enchilada, or some nice enchiladas and roll them up. And then Ricky was like, no way, you gotta make them flat.

• 4:57Dan Pashman?

  And you guys are there, you're in Chapel Hill, you're at UNC grad school?

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Yes, we're both in grad school.

• 5:04Dan Pashman?

  What are you getting your degrees in?

• 5:06Speaker 01

  I'm getting mine in neurobiology.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  And I'm getting mine in epidemiology.

• 5:12Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so rolled enchilada Jane is neurobiology?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:18Dan Pashman?

  So Jane, at the moment that you first heard Ricky describe flat enchiladas, what happened in your brain?

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Um.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Well, I should say that I also, I study chronic pain disorders. So I started, those neural pathways that are associated with pain started lighting up. Because I just can't imagine eating any enchilada anyway, except eating it rolled.

• 5:46Dan Pashman?

  So it hurt you, it actually hurt you?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it physically and mentally, just it hurt me.

• 5:55Dan Pashman?

  And Ricky, you're studying to be an epidemiologist. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sort of means that you like trace the paths that different diseases can take, is that right?

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's actually a pretty good take on it.

• 6:10Dan Pashman?

  You're sort of like a disease detective. So put on your detective hat. Look at this, you know, look at this situation and tell me what, what do you think is this, what do you think is going on here?

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Well, I think she's just ignorant to the fact that flat is better. And so she.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  So I think, you know, not having tried it before is definitely a huge factor that plays into this game.

• 6:41Dan Pashman?

  And Jane, what can your neurobiological expertise teach me about the degree to which our brains are open to new ideas or new experiences as we age?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  You know, the mind is a plastic, it's a plastic thing, so you're able to experience new things and learn new things, but of course, as you get older, those neural pathways that are open for learning become, they become less and less prominent in the brain. And so perhaps that is why, as a, granted, I am only 26, but as a 26-year-old, I am less likely to learn to like flat enchiladas than say if I were only a teenager or a young child that was more impressionable.

• 7:29Dan Pashman?

  Alright, so, so we have a lot of ways to look at this, this issue. First thing I'll say is like, I'm not gonna take a position on like which is more quote-unquote "authentic."

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:42Dan Pashman?

  I will say that I personally have only ever had rolled enchiladas having grown up in the Northeast. But I'm, I'm less concerned with which is more quote-unquote "authentic," I'm more concerned with which is better. Because sometimes, you know, tradition can be a wonderful thing, to uphold the tradition and do things the way it's always been done, but other times, tradition can be a crutch, it can be a barrier to progress. Ricky?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:06Dan Pashman?

  I, I consider the flat enchilada to be new to me, so I want you to make the case to me. Why is a flat enchilada, lasagna-style, approach to making enchiladas better than rolled enchiladas?

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Well, the big thing here is really the ease of making flat enchiladas versus rolled enchiladas. But I, in my opinion, rolled enchiladas, you don't do anything to the tortilla before you put the filling in, but in flat, you can fry the tortilla before, and it makes it a little bit crispier even before you put it in the oven. And also, let's be honest, cheese is one of the most important parts of the enchilada, and using the flat approach, you can put more cheese and your ratio is just a lot better.

• 9:00Dan Pashman?

  Jane, what's your response to that?

• 9:02Speaker 01

  I think that she brings some good points to the table. But, you know, Dan, you always talk about bite variety on your show. And one thing that I find with the flat enchiladas is that you don't get that bite variety because each bite that you take is going to basically be composed of the same things. And when you eat a rolled enchilada, what you can get is this variation in your bites as you move along the enchilada. So that first initial bite on the end is going to be more tortilla. It might have more sauce on the side that you scoop up with your fork. But as you move in, then you get more and more filling.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  You might get some more cheese as you move into the enchilada.

• 9:51Dan Pashman?

  All right, I think that I have something I want to propose to you guys. Jane, when you talked about the rolled enchiladas, I liked your point about bite variety. I agree that bite variety rolled enchiladas is a good thing. Ricky, when you talked about your flat enchiladas, I liked the point you made about frying the tortillas to add texture and crunch. You know, on the Sporkful here, I love crunch. And I do think that, to me, sometimes that is something that sometimes turns me off of enchiladas is that they're kind of like monotextural.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 10:25Dan Pashman?

  I think you guys should work on a hybrid.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 10:30Dan Pashman?

  Make the rolled enchiladas in a double-decker formation with a layer of fried tortillas in the middle.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. You know, we are having an enchilada night tonight, and we're battling out between flat and rolled. And so maybe we can do this hybrid variety that you proposed, Dan, and then tell you about it.

• 10:56Dan Pashman?

  Are your friends all amped up for this battle? Are there a lot of people coming over?

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes. It is a contentious debate with our friends.

• 11:05Dan Pashman?

  All right. Jane and Ricky in Chapel Hill, I want to hear from you again. I want to find out how it went. I want to find out who won between the two, and then I want to find out how the hybrid went over with the crowd.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  All right, we can do that.

• 11:17Dan Pashman?

  Cool, thanks, guys. Have fun.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Hello?

• 11:34Dan Pashman?

  Hey Jane, it's Dan. How are ya?

• 11:37Speaker 01

  I'm doing good. How about yourself, Dan?

• 11:38Dan Pashman?

  Good, good. I wanted to check up on the enchilada experiment. Can we get, can you get Ricky on the phone? Can you have her pick up?

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Ricky. Hello?

• 11:50Dan Pashman?

  Hey Ricky.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Hey!

• 11:52Dan Pashman?

  Hey, it's Dan. So, um, so I know you guys had your enchilada party. Tell me what happened.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Everybody came over. We got some opinions. We got some good points. And then the night devolved into an evening where we played some beer pong on the kitchen table. So it was, it was overall a great night.

• 12:14Dan Pashman?

  Nice, nice. And I know that you sent us some clips. You talked to some of your friends and recorded their reactions to the enchiladas. Let's hear a little bit of that.

• 12:26Speaker 03

  I'm sort of a messy eater, so with the rolled, I had a distinct starting and end point. And so I did not look like a slob. I had some level of sophistication in front of a large group of people. So, um, from my point of view, I preferred the rolled, but I can't complain about being fed enchiladas.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  Each type of preparation had its strengths. I particularly liked the moistness, if you will, of the rolled enchiladas. But the texture of the tortilla with the oven and kind of the chewiness, it gets a little crispy on the flat ones, was also a very strong contender. So at the end of the day, I would eat them both again.

• 13:07Speaker 05

  Ultimately, I went with the rolled one because I felt like there was more flavor and more moisture in the middle of it. You know, it kind of blew me away. But I learned that there was some cheating going on with the rolled ones. I heard there was sour cream in the rolled ones.

• 13:22Dan Pashman?

  So what was the consensus among your friends on the enchiladas? Was there a clear winner?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  As Ricky will point out, I used sour cream in the actual roll of the enchiladas. So that was a whole nother element that was not included in the flat enchiladas. So we think that the sour cream might have skewed things a little bit. But in addition, the ratio of meat to tortilla was higher in the rolled.

• 13:55Dan Pashman?

  And do you think that was a function of the form of rolled versus flat? Or were you just sneaking in a little extra goodness into your rolled enchiladas?

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Probably a little bit of both, but I really think that just the actual form of the enchilada as a rolled entity, you're going to just have more meat to tortilla ratio.

• 14:19Dan Pashman?

  But Ricky, you make the flat ones. Couldn't you have a one-inch-thick layer of filling and then just one thin layer of tortilla? Couldn't the ratios be whatever you want?

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I think that, again, is a positive for flat tortillas, is your ratio can be whatever you want. But I actually really enjoyed the sour cream in hers, and I thought it was delicious, and I had never used that before in flat enchiladas. And I will actually take that and put that into mine, whether it's rolled or flat, and use sour cream in the future.

• 14:52Dan Pashman?

  And Ricky, do you feel like you got a fair shake in this competition with your flat enchiladas?

• 14:58Speaker 01

  I did. I mean, they were both delicious. Yeah, they were both really good. Everybody left fat and happy, you know?

• 15:06Dan Pashman?

  And did you try the hybrid that I had proposed?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  All right. So we made a hybrid at the very end, combining the flat with the rolled. And it was delicious. The one thing that I would say is that it's just huge when you make it like that. So you're really going... When you make that, you're going to be going in for a big meal. You have to really commit. You have to commit.

• 15:35Dan Pashman?

  Well, is there an issue with commitment to enchiladas here, ladies? And is that...

• 15:40Speaker 01

  No, that is far from the issue.

• 15:42Dan Pashman?

  This is the second time you're calling into this show by enchiladas. If anyone is committed to enchiladas, I think it should be you.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  That's true, that's true. We had just eaten our enchiladas before too. So I think that by the end of it, we were just like, whoa, this is a lot of food.

• 15:58Dan Pashman?

  So I'm the one really who didn't get the fair shake in the competition because you put out my concept last after everyone was already full.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  This is true. This is true, Dan. So maybe you'll have to come down and we can like all make hybrid enchiladas once again.

• 16:13Dan Pashman?

  I have to say though, I think also perhaps, maybe I wasn't clear in describing my vision for the hybrid, but I was not suggesting that you make flat enchiladas, rather that you make rolled enchiladas, but that you make two layers, like a bottom layer of rolled and then a top layer. And in between those two layers, you just put the crispy fried corn tortillas that you said are one of the pros of the flat. So it's like a layer of just flat crunch in the middle between the two layers of the rolled. And so what I'm envisioning isn't so ridiculously huge. It feels to me like you like took one lasagna and put it on top of another lasagna.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe we did. We might have done that.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  We had a lot of beer.

• 16:54Dan Pashman?

  Right. So not only did you make my creation last, but you also made it while your judgment was impaired.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  And our friend's judgment. Dan, I would just like to say that our judgment was enhanced.

• 17:07Dan Pashman?

  I see. Okay. Fair enough. So it sounds like we don't have a really clear winner. Do you both still think that your enchiladas are better than the others?

• 17:18Speaker 01

  This is Jane saying, I think that they both have their place in this world.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  And I think, this is Ricky, and I think if I had to decide based solely on last week, Jane probably would have won with the sour cream, but I feel like if I had a chance to redeem myself, I could.

• 17:38Dan Pashman?

  Well, as with the last time that we spoke, I am now starving for enchiladas. Every time I talk to you guys, I come away just desperately wanting enchiladas. So I'm gonna go eat some enchiladas now.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Okay, please do.

• 17:49Dan Pashman?

  Jane and Ricky in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Enjoy your enchiladas.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Ding ding, Dan.

• 17:59Dan Pashman?

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• 18:44Dan Pashman?

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• 19:27Dan Pashman?

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• 21:38Dan Pashman?

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• 22:49Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman, and I am still fighting this annoying cold, as you can probably hear. I actually feel a lot better than I sound, but this cold is just attacking my vocal cords, which fortunately, I don't really need for my job, so it's no big deal. Today on the show, I'm taking your cheese-related calls. So here's the first one.

• 23:13Speaker 08

  Hey, this is Adam from LA. This is Jonathan from LA. And I wrote into The Sporkful because my friend Jonathan and I have a longstanding debate for about six years about a world in which there was only one type of cheese left, which is horrifying. And to me, the answer is, of course, mozzarella is the one type of cheese we would want. And we started this debate at a party without realizing, you know, our differences. And we were talking about it for so long that we looked around eventually and realized that everybody else had walked away. And Jonathan and I, as I said, six years, so we've sort of chewed through this. The only thing that we really agree on is when anybody else has a different type of

• 23:55Speaker 08

  cheese, like brie or taleggi, that that's ridiculous.

• 23:59Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, that's a terrible idea.

• 24:00Speaker 08

  I'll let Jonathan explain his cheddar stance, and then I'll explain my mozzarella stance.

• 24:05Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so in this horrific dystopian future, in which cheese is like Highlander, there can be only one.

• 24:13Speaker 08

  Right.

• 24:14Dan Pashman?

  Jonathan, you believe that if there can be only one cheese, it should be cheddar?

• 24:19Speaker 09

  Yes, absolutely. Quite simply, it has more flavor than mozzarella. It comes down to flavor, and if you've only got one cheese left to have, um, you know, as Bobby Flay says, I'm all about big, bold flavors. And so cheddar's the cheese that I go with.

• 24:37Speaker 08

  You know what Bobby Flay didn't say and wouldn't say? Enjoy this cheddar pizza. And that, to me, is what it comes down to. With mozzarella, you have a lifetime of pizza. You have a lifetime of Italian food. You can have a caprese salad if you're gonna be a little bit healthier that day. Uh, Mexican food with the right seasonings can still be passable with mozzarella. Cheddar just doesn't work with everything. It's like Hugh Grant. It does one thing really well, but if you don't want that one thing, it's not gonna help you.

• 25:08Dan Pashman?

  Jonathan, response?

• 25:10Speaker 09

  Okay, um, yeah, uh, this is, this is always a funny, uh, conundrum that, that he brings up because, um, this is what I refer to as his pizza argument, or his lasagna argument. So, um, you know, and while I admit, yeah, of course, uh, generally speaking, um, mozzarella is the, the main topping on a pizza. Um, there is something at most pizza places that when you go down and you, you sit down and you eat your slice of pizza, there's something else on the table there. Most places have this, and usually, one of those things is Parmesan. Now, why would there be an overly salty cheese on the table of a pizza parlor? And that's because of the lack of flavor there is in mozzarella.

• 25:54Speaker 09

  So, it's, it, it's quite common to see people adding extra flavor to something that has mozzarella.

• 26:01Speaker 08

  Jonathan actually makes my point for me. It's that mozzarella can take on flavor. Cheddar is what it is and always will be, which is fine if that's exactly what you want. But keep in mind, this is a world without any other type of cheese. And is that really the one flavor you want dominating everything else? It's a horrifying world, to me.

• 26:21Speaker 09

  And yet, mozzarella is the only cheese that needs another cheese to help it.

• 26:27Speaker 08

  Can you tell this is a six-year-long debate?

• 26:33Dan Pashman?

  At least you guys don't take it personally.

• 26:38Dan Pashman?

  So, alright, I got some questions here. Okay, sure. First off, Jonathan, when you say cheddar, are you talking, like, is it assumed in this dystopian future that that means all types of cheddar? Or is it only one level of sharpness, one level of agedness?

• 26:53Speaker 09

  Great question. I think if you say cheddar, you have a very wide range.

• 26:58Speaker 08

  And similarly with mozzarella, that includes your baby mozzarellas, your buffalo mozzarellas, your burrata's, your smoked mozzarellas.

• 27:07Dan Pashman?

  Okay, and let me intervene here, okay, you guys? Because I think that you are dancing around the fundamental question without addressing it.

• 27:19Dan Pashman?

  Really what you're debating, or where you truly disagree, is not actually which cheese is best. Really where you disagree is in the purpose that you want cheese to serve in this dystopian future. So we have Adam saying, "Look, it's not gonna be perfect, but mozzarella can fill the cheese gap in a lot of different places. You can season it up. It can plug the hole, even if it's not always perfect, even if it's a little mild in flavor." Jonathan, what you're saying is that's not what you would want in this dystopian future. You have a wholly different approach. You want the flavor.

• 28:02Dan Pashman?

  And you'd rather have one strong flavored cheese over and over again, even at the risk of tiring of it and of not being able to use it as often,

• 28:14Dan Pashman?

  than to have milder flavored cheese all the time.

• 28:18Speaker 09

  I don't know if I would agree with the point that you made about it not being able to be used as often.

• 28:24Dan Pashman?

  I'm sorry, Jonathan. It's tough to argue Adam's basic point that mozzarella is more of an all-purpose cheese. Because it's milder in flavor, it is milder in flavor than cheddar, and therefore it's more adaptable, and it's less likely to clash. You know, that's the funny thing here is that Adam says that the mildness of mozzarella is its strength in this future.

• 28:49Speaker 09

  Right.

• 28:50Dan Pashman?

  And Jonathan, you say that the mildness of mozzarella is its weakness. And that the strong flavors of cheddar is its strength. And so, you don't disagree on the pros and cons of these two cheeses. You disagree on what you want cheese to do in a dystopian future in which there's only one.

• 29:08Speaker 09

  Yeah, I could agree with that, yeah. I think that's fair.

• 29:12Dan Pashman?

  Okay. Now, this is what we call progress. After six years, there is progress here, okay? So now, let's talk about the real issue.

• 29:20Speaker 08

  I feel like, in a lab somewhere, somebody has the right amount of spices and the right cooking technique, I think you could make a mozzarella that tastes like cheddar. If you really needed it, I don't think you can make a cheddar that tastes like anything else. Oh, why would you want to?

• 29:40Dan Pashman?

  The problem is that it's harder to find really good, fresh mozzarella than it is to find good cheddar. You gotta go to some kind of old world market, where there's an old Italian man who speaks no English in the back, like standing over a cauldron with a giant wooden spoon. And he comes out of the, and he hobbles out of the back and he dumps the cauldron into the vat of mozzarella balls and they're still warm. And they've been fined by the Board of Health numerous times because they don't refrigerate the cheese before selling it, because that's what makes it more delicious.

• 30:09Speaker 08

  See, and I can imagine in this dystopian future, those guys are just all over the place. That feels right to me. If you're gonna be dystopian, I want a lot of guys, you know, in this little room with a cauldron and nothing else, just dealing mozzarella. That, to me, feels right.

• 30:24Dan Pashman?

  All right, well, I have to say, for my personal taste, I like mozzarella better than cheddar every day of the week. I'm not a big cheddar fan. I personally agree with you, Adam, that mozzarella is more flexible, you can use it more different ways, you can season it up. I could see myself eating mozzarella cheese multiple times a week for a long time without getting tired of it. I can't imagine that being the case with cheddar cheese for me personally.

• 30:50Speaker 08

  A shame.

• 30:51Dan Pashman?

  But I do think that, to some extent, this argument comes down to a matter of taste. And as they, as the wise men have said for many years, and as we say here on this sporkful, "De gustibus non est disputandum." In matters of taste, there can be no dispute. So I hope that you two will put down your cheese knives.

• 31:14Dan Pashman?

  And let there be peace between you and accept each other for your differences.

• 31:19Speaker 08

  I think we can do that. I think that's fair.

• 31:21Dan Pashman?

  All right, Adam and Jonathan in LA. We'll put this question up on our website as well because I want to hear from more of you out there. We'll put up a poll at sporkful.com and ask people what cheese they would like in a dystopian one cheese future. Thanks so much for your call, guys.

• 31:37Speaker 08

  Thanks for having us.

• 31:41Dan Pashman?

  Now, back to the phones.

• 31:42Speaker 10

  Hi, this is Erica Stone. I'm calling from Helen Park, Illinois.

• 31:46Dan Pashman?

  Okay, Erica, what can I do for you?

• 31:48Speaker 10

  So I'm curious at what point a grilled cheese becomes a melt, or like what the distinction is between the two of them. Because you can have a grilled cheese with bacon, you know, that has some meat on it. But I'm wondering, like, you know, because there are all these grilled cheese restaurants and they'll have a bunch of stuff on it, but still call it a grilled cheese. And I keep looking at these and thinking, well, that sounds like a melt to me. So I wanted to know, yeah, what you thought about that whole business.

• 32:13Dan Pashman?

  It's a great question. And actually, it's funny because in the very first ever episode of The Sporkful, which is now no longer publicly available, it's been put into deep freeze, archived. But episode one was about grilled cheese, and I addressed this exact issue. At what point does it stop being a grilled cheese? Do you have an opinion on this, Erica? What do you see as the dividing line?

• 32:41Speaker 10

  Well, I think like, as I've discussed this with friends, it sounds like once you add cold cuts on to it, then it becomes a melt.

• 32:48Dan Pashman?

  So you're saying when you add meat, it becomes a sandwich. It becomes some other kind of sandwich?

• 32:53Speaker 10

  Not necessarily, because if you put bacon on a grilled cheese, that's still a grilled cheese.

• 32:59Dan Pashman?

  What about bacon and tomato?

• 33:01Speaker 10

  Yeah, that, I think that's still a grilled cheese. Those are like canonical grilled cheese toppings. But like, when you start adding on turkey or ham or, you know, burger, you know, then it, then it becomes the melt. I think if you also have more than two toppings, maybe.

• 33:18Dan Pashman?

  If I want to get Socratic about this and start questioning your underlying assumptions, you're saying bacon is okay, but ham is not? Ham, a slice, a slice of ham is not any thicker? Typically than a slice of bacon. It comes from the same animal.

• 33:34Speaker 10

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:34Dan Pashman?

  So why should a slice of ham in a grilled cheese turn it into something else, but not a slice of bacon?

• 33:42Speaker 10

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know. It just, you know, I guess it's more of a feeling than, you know, a cognitive thing.

• 33:49Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 33:49Speaker 10

  Uh, cause right, cause you, you have a name for, for the ham. It's a ham and cheese. Or, I mean, you have a tur- a turkey melt, but, you know, when you, when you are at a diner, you know, it's a grilled cheese with bacon and tomato.

• 34:05Dan Pashman?

  Cause I, I'm inclined to agree with you, but we need to think this through, Erica. We can't just be issuing verdicts willy-nilly.

• 34:11Speaker 10

  Sure.

• 34:12Dan Pashman?

  I wanna work through an intellectual.

• 34:14Speaker 10

  Yeah.

• 34:15Dan Pashman?

  A defensible position. I, I think that maybe the difference is that bacon is more often an accompaniment.

• 34:25Speaker 10

  Hmm.

• 34:25Dan Pashman?

  Now, it's a powerful accompaniment, full of flavor, full of porky, fatty goodness. But it's not often the featured attraction. Even in a BLT, I know that it's the meat, but I would argue that a BLT is more like about a cohesive whole.

• 34:43Speaker 10

  That's a good point. It is an ensemble.

• 34:46Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 34:46Speaker 10

  Sandwich.

• 34:47Dan Pashman?

  You know, but like, how often are you really gonna pile bacon on a sandwich and make that the sandwich? It's usually more that the bacon is an accompaniment, you know, and so that's why, that's why I feel like it's different. E- even though it might not be different in quantity from a slice of ham or turkey.

• 35:02Speaker 10

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:03Dan Pashman?

  It's different in the purpose that it serves.

• 35:06Speaker 10

  Mm-hmm. I'm trying to think of others, of other sandwiches. They're like, how much do you need to add to a grilled cheese before it's not a grilled cheese anymore?

• 35:13Dan Pashman?

  What if you were to add tomato and eggplant? Is that still grilled cheese?

• 35:20Speaker 10

  I think so. Um.

• 35:22Dan Pashman?

  What about, what about tomato and roasted red pepper and eggplant and basil?

• 35:29Speaker 10

  Yeah, now that's starting to sound like a vegetable sandwich with cheese.

• 35:32Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 35:33Speaker 10

  Yeah.

• 35:34Dan Pashman?

  I'm kinda with you on the, on the, on the cap also, the cap of two. You cannot add more than two things. You can have bread, cheese, and up to two things inside. And they have to be accompaniments, not featured attractions.

• 35:48Speaker 10

  So what about something, you know, we've, we've talked about ham, we've talked about bacon, like prosciutto.

• 35:53Dan Pashman?

  Well, that's a great question.

• 35:56Speaker 10

  Because it's still salty, poor, but would you call that a grilled cheese if it had, right, if it's, you know, cheese, prosciutto, tomato?

• 36:07Dan Pashman?

  I guess what I would say is

• 36:09Speaker 10

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:10Dan Pashman?

  It's something that like, if I'm gonna eat prosciutto, I want to taste the prosciutto.

• 36:17Dan Pashman?

  You know, like, prosciutto is something that I'm like, ooh, prosciutto, yummy. I get excited about it. And I, and I, I believe that while it can be used in a com- as an accompaniment, and I, I wouldn't say that it's wrong, I feel like more often it should be the star.

• 36:31Speaker 10

  Okay.

• 36:32Dan Pashman?

  What do you think?

• 36:34Speaker 10

  I, I guess now I'm coming to your side of it where it's all about the function of the other ingredients. But yeah, no, I, I think I'm, I'm satisfied by this answer.

• 36:44Dan Pashman?

  Like great Supreme Court justices, Erica, you and I sometimes have to make the tough calls.

• 36:50Speaker 10

  That it's, that it's a grilled cheese when I see it?

• 36:52Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, that's right. It's not, we can't always define it, but you know it when you see it.

• 36:57Speaker 10

  I love it.

• 36:58Dan Pashman?

  All right. Thanks, Erica. Appreciate the call.

• 37:00Speaker 10

  Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on.

• 37:05Dan Pashman?

  Well, this was a lot of fun. I always love taking your calls. This show is a production of WNYC and The Sporkful. It's produced by Anne Sannie and me. We get help from Tim Ruggieri. Special thanks to Paula Schuman. Until next time, I'm Dan Pash.

• 37:18Speaker 11

  This is Sybil Spalding, and I am calling from Nashville, Tennessee. Eat more, eat better. Don't forget to eat more better.

• 37:41Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me, along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts. Over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful.

• 38:26Dan Pashman?

  Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 38:34Speaker 06

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• 39:35Speaker 12

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