#1580 Yoni Assia | Why Bitcoin Still Has 10x Upside

Yoni Assia is the Founder & CEO of eToro, the world’s leading social investment network. In this conversation we talk about why Yoni was buying bitcoin when it was real cheap in 2011, the rise to bitcoin being over 100k in price, why he thinks it’s still early, tokenization, how he thinks about being a public company CEO today, and what to expect moving forward. ==========================Markets are at all-time highs. Public equities are outperforming. And individual investors are driving it all. It’s officially the rise of the retail investor. On September 12th in NYC, I’m hosting the Independent Investor Summit — a one-day event built exclusively for self-directed investors. We’re bringing together some of the smartest public market investors I know for a full day of macro insights, market predictions, one-on-one fireside chats, and actionable investment ideas from each investor. This is going to be an absolute banger event. Join us if you like markets and think retail is two steps ahead of Wall Street. TICKETS: ⁠https://www.independentinvestor.co⁠/ (use promo code POMPYT25)=======================BitcoinIRA: Buy, sell, and swap 75+ cryptocurrencies in your retirement account. Take 3 minutes to open your account & get connected to a team of IRA specialists that will guide you through every step of the process. Go to https://bitcoinira.com/pomp/ to earn up to $500 in rewards.========================Core is the leading Bitcoin scaling solution, enabling you to lock in yield by locking up your Bitcoin. Simply lock it on the Bitcoin blockchain to secure the Core network, and get rewards. No bridging. No lending. Just holding. Still your keys. Still your coins. Now your yield. Start at https://stake.coredao.org/pomp========================Xapo Bank, the world’s first fully licensed Bitcoin-enabled bank, offers military-grade security with an unmatched blend of physical and digital security, as well as pioneering regulatory oversight, so your funds are always protected. Beyond secure storage, they enable you to grow and use your Bitcoin. Earn daily interest in Bitcoin, spend with zero FX fees using a global card, and make instant payments via the Lightning Network for unrivalled access and convenience. Visit https://www.xapobank.com/pomp to join.=======================Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/=======================View 10k+ open startup jobs:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 0:58Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode.

• 1:26Speaker 03

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:50Anthony Pompliano?

  What's going on guys? Today we've got a great episode with Yoni Assia. He's the founder and CEO of eToro. They're a $6 billion publicly traded company. They've got 3.5 million users and they are coming to the United States fast and furious. In this conversation, Yoni explains why he was buying Bitcoin when it was real cheap back in 2011 and how he thinks about the rise all the way to 120 Thousand dollars in price, why he thinks it's still early? Then we get into things like tokenization, what's going on on all of these retail trading platforms? How he thinks about being a public company CEO today? And what to expect from the emergence of all the traditional finance world and the new crypto ecosystem that is forming? This conversation is fascinating. There's lots of new information in here, so enjoy my latest conversation with Yoni. All right, Yoni, I thought a great place to start this conversation, you were buying Bitcoin, I think it was like a penny, maybe two cents or something.

• 2:36Anthony Pompliano?

  You predicted that it was going to go to $120,000, you nailed the predict, no, I'm kidding. But you did buy Bitcoin very early on, and I think that you had very high conviction that it was going to be very successful. How do you evaluate Bitcoin's rise over the last, you know, 10 to 15 years that you've been in Bitcoin?

• 2:51Speaker 04

  So first of all, this was buying for Etoro. So we were actually probably first or one of the first companies in the world to have Bitcoin treasury. We started buying at $5, all the way to 15, I think with about $50,000, we bought 3,000 Bitcoin. This was in 2011, 12.

• 3:11Speaker 04

  And then, you know, first crypto rally until we started trading for our clients, so clients started trading Bitcoin on Etoro in 2013. For four years, everybody, my board, management, they were like, Yoni, you were going all in this Bitcoin, nothing really happened. We were like wasting so much resources in it. And then 2017 came, by the end of 2017, 95% of our clients were trading Bitcoin and XRP and ETH. We listed ETH when it was about $4. So I've always been a big fan and still am of Bitcoin and of blockchain, tokenization, digital assets. And I have no doubt that we are still very, very early stages, it's going to continue.

• 3:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Why do you think that? Why do you think that? Like, let's talk about Bitcoin that we talk about the kind of rest of the market. But with Bitcoin specifically, why do you think it's still so early, given, you know, it's a two plus trillion dollar asset, $120,000 price point?

• 4:05Speaker 04

  The the way I look at it is Bitcoin is is the reserve currency of the digital economy. Uh, and gold is sort of the reserve commodity. So the reserve commodity versus currencies nine. And now it's more than nine trillion, probably like thirteen.

• 4:21Anthony Pompliano?

  It is like twenty.

• 4:21Speaker 04

  Twenty? Oh, oh my, yeah, cuz it it went up. Uh, I need to update my slide. So twenty trillion dollars, right? So I I I I think there's a very good chance digital commodity surpasses physical commodity, right? Which means we have a ten X horizon to Bitcoin as the reserve commodity of the digital economy. Now, how long does it take? Is it a five-year process, a ten-year process? I think uh uh that's still out there, but I think gold and gold market cap is a very good sort of signal to where Bitcoin should be and eventually should probably surpass that.

• 5:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I I don't disagree with that. Now, what about the rest of the industry, right? Because I think that there's a lot of people who look at it. One of the stories that uh you've told me before, but I don't think people really know is colored coins. Early on, I think you were like pretty involved, paying attention to that. We now have all these altcoins and it seems like some of them are working, some of them aren't, but it's kind of like experimentation or how you look at it?

• 5:20Speaker 04

  So we we founded colored coins in two thousand twelve. Uh, there's actually a project that started in Nitoro. And then we came to the board with the concept of colored coins and my board was like, stop dealing with these things uh uh or or in crypto. Uh, so we completely open sourced it. Uh, and actually, uh, Vitalik, when he was, I think, under eighteen, pinged me at Bitcoin Talk and he's like, this is super interesting tokenization. This was basically colored coin was uh tokenizing on top of the Bitcoin network. This was also the first sort of Bitcoin maximalist cuz when it's all, by the way, public like on on Google Groups. So you can see Vitalik arguing with other people saying, hey, maybe we should start a new blockchain.

• 6:03Speaker 04

  And everybody's like, what? That's blasphemy. Bitcoin is the only blockchain that should be.

• 6:09Anthony Pompliano?

  They're still saying that today on the internet.

• 6:11Speaker 04

  The same Bitcoin maximalists. Uh, that was the beginning. Um, and I think. And we were like all talking about eventually like our vision and passion was about tokenizing real world assets, right? So tokenizing gold and silver and currencies. By the way, another interesting story is Tether was actually built originally on Bitcoin, right? And it was almost built on colored coins. And then

• 6:36Anthony Pompliano?

  And Tether, if I remember correctly, they created it originally to be able to arb between exchanges. And they didn't have to use like the bank wire system and stuff. So they created

• 6:44Speaker 04

  Well, they had a lot of the early exchanges didn't have banks at all, right? So the entire concept of stable coins basically started as a path for digital crypto native companies to be able to transfer basically dollars between them and for the users to transfer dollars in between exchanges without the need at all for banking rails. So early days, Bitfinex, which is related to Tether, Binance and others didn't really have banks. You couldn't move money through banks. So everything had to move through stable coins. I think now, you know, the crypto is in a whole different path. But going back now to sort of tokenization, we were talking about colored coins

• 7:25Speaker 04

  and tokenizing real world assets in 2013. And eventually, obviously, Vitalik went and built Ethereum, which really started tokenization. It always surprises when you actually find out it's more about meme tokens eventually, and new type of tokens or apes rather than real world assets. But I think now you're pushing that towards 2025. And I think everybody understands that digital assets are better from a technology point of view than analog assets, right? It just makes sense. So everybody assumes, and we were saying this for years, this is at least 100 trillion 100 trillion dollars worth of assets are moving to become digital assets, which are existing stocks,

• 8:10Speaker 04

  bonds, eventually real estate and other assets, right? So when you look at the industry as a whole, there's two huge transformations of wealth. One is Gen Y, right? So basically, younger generations amassing Roughly 120 trillion dollars of assets over the next 25 years. And the other part is on the backend. So one part is on the frontend where platforms like Etoro have younger generations amassing wealth. And the other part is from a technology point of view, all of those assets are moving on chain over time.

• 8:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm. And when you think about this whole move of tokenization, right? I think of Bitcoin is it's a tokenization of store of value, which is kind of not a real world thing, but we created a better version of it. So it's digitally native store of value. Stable coins are really the proof point I would point to that it probably have the second best product market fit in this entire industry. It is tokenizing dollars or kind of some sort of fiat currency. What do you think the next thing is? Like we've seen stocks. I know that Etoro now is starting to look at the stock thing. I've seen people trying to do real estate. I've seen people try to do all kinds of different like types of assets. But like, what is the next, you know, area is going to get this product market fit?

• 9:23Speaker 04

  So I think real world assets are coming.

• 9:27Speaker 04

  We've announced we're now launching 100 tokenized assets of the top traded stocks on Etoro, the 2024, five. And if you think of the usability originally, again, of stable coins, it was the transfer of assets, right? It's the transfer of assets 24 seven. So that unlocks a lot of opportunities for stocks, eventually for money market funds. You have people like Fidelity, companies like Fidelity and BlackRock issuing money market funds on the blockchain. You see Goldman Sachs going into that direction as well. So I think treasuries, which is money market funds and other types of treasuries and stocks are coming on chain right now. And that would unlock a lot of possibilities around DeFi.

• 10:12Speaker 04

  So if you think of sort of the core, the most interesting part of digital assets, you know, that's way beyond analog assets. It's real time transfer of assets 24 seven across the globe, anywhere, right? I think that was very efficient.

• 10:28Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you tokenize, let's say stocks, right? How much of it is access? So people who don't have access to the stock market or whatever. We'll get access or it could be access in terms of there's private companies and now will be tokenized and I can, you know, go buy it. So there's like an access component, but there's also this like, um, I can move it between exchanges. I can, you know, do something with it in off hours. Like, you know, there's almost like, okay, now that I own it and can access the actual equity itself, then there's a bunch of stuff that I it unlocks for me to be able to do. Do you think it's both of those things? Or do you think one or the other is the reason?

• 11:00Speaker 04

  I think eventually it's all of them, uh, but I love the quote of Elon Musk that the most entertaining outcome is eventually the most possible one. I, I think we don't know what's going to be the first real sort of mass scale usage. I love the concept of gifting stocks. So I always say like, I started trading when my father gifted me some stocks when I was 13. I think gifting stocks to people is a great opportunity for people to understand the value of stocks versus just crypto. And I think crypto, the crypto community today, I think there's about 400 million wallets out there or 400 million people already trading crypto. So it's actually bigger than any single stock market across the globe.

• 11:44Speaker 04

  And we've always looked at crypto in Itoro as sort of, uh, in some cases gateway to understand how capital markets work and how stock markets work. I always say, even if Bitcoin is a million dollars and you still want to buy Coca-Cola and McDonald's or your Netflix subscription, you're still, they're going to pay for it. So these companies are still great companies, whether it's in dollars or in Bitcoins.

• 12:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And then when you think about your business, um, you guys were in Europe, you guys crushed it there. You came to the US and then there were some regulatory headwinds, I think that every company, both domestic or an international company came to the US dealt with. Well, at one point you guys delisted a bunch of assets and then you guys kind of came roaring back. Walk me through like what happened in terms of like the regulation and how it's changed how you guys think about building the company.

• 12:32Speaker 04

  Sure. So today, Itoro has customers from seventy-five countries, or regulated across the globe, started in Europe, expanded to UK, UAE, which is amazing, Singapore, which was just launched, Australia. And then about four years ago, we started in the US. Now we offer in the US crypto assets, stocks, and options trading. And under the last administration, and that is not a surprise to anyone, there was a lot of pressure against the crypto community. And as we've seen, our business across the globe actually succeeding, both in stocks and crypto, we decided to take a step back during, basically, a very highly

• 13:16Speaker 04

  scrutinized industry on crypto. We eventually delisted the majority of crypto assets, except Bitcoin, Ethereum, which was sort of approved as commodities here in the US. Very proud, by the way, and would love to talk about going public two months ago. So definitely one of the biggest milestones in my life now, being Itoro, being a public company here in the US. And for us, that was a trigger. We really wanted to go public, be a public company, be able to look at newer, bigger opportunities, and then start expanding in the US, continue to expand in the US as well. So we, since going public, we added more

• 13:59Speaker 04

  than sixty different crypto assets. We expect to launch more than a hundred crypto assets by the end of August, so significantly scaling up our crypto offering here in the US, adding staking as well, which we had in the past, we have it outside the US, we'll bring it back into the US. I think there's definitely much better and higher regulatory clarity with the new SEC administration, the new administration in general in Washington. It's amazing to see how crypto has become such a strong narrative of the administration, with Trump talking about it, and Howard Latnick talking about it, and seeing a lot

• 14:38Speaker 04

  of the crypto colleagues in the White House. I was there at the DC crypto inauguration party for Trump, just before the inauguration, which was, by the way, mind blowing, because we were there, the entire crypto community was there in the room, and suddenly you see everybody picking up their phones, and they're like, "What? Trump coin? What's Trump coin?"

• 15:02Anthony Pompliano?

  I think everyone was wondering if it was real, not real, whatever, right?

• 15:06Speaker 04

  At least two, three hours of the biggest OGs in the crypto community. And they're all like, is this real? Is this not real? Is that was his account hacked?

• 15:18Speaker 04

  Absolutely mind blowing.

• 15:20Anthony Pompliano?

  And you've told me a story in the past about the de-banking, this like 2.2.0 stuff. I think you told me that you had $100 million in a bank account. And the banks came to you and said, you got to take the money out of the bank account.

• 15:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. So this was early days of crypto. I think that was about 2017. This was again, it's all not me, the $100 million. And, you know, we've grown in 2017 from opening 200 accounts a day to opening 20,000 accounts a day.

• 15:57Anthony Pompliano?

  20,000.

• 15:58Speaker 04

  20,000 accounts a day.

• 15:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow.

• 15:59Speaker 04

  And that was like K Y C verified financial institutions account. And, and we saw the same happening with our bank accounts or our bank accounts grew some of them from like $20 million to $100 million or $200 million. We were growing rapidly back then, 2017. And some of the banks, and these are the, what have, you know, one of the largest banks in the world were like, listen, this crypto thing. We, we can't, you know, we can't tell you why, but we don't like it. And you need to, we need to shut down the bank. And now it's amazing to see in 2025, I would say we have amazing relationships with banks. From, you know, most of the biggest banks in the world, which was, we're also on our cover from, you know,

• 16:44Speaker 04

  JP's banking us Goldman, we work with Citi with UBS. So we're working with the largest banks in the world. And I think the narrative changed a lot. So most of the big banks now in the world have a digital asset team. They cover with a research crypto assets, not only Bitcoin, they cover ETH and Solana and others as well. So I think that changed significantly, but it was definitely early days of crypto, de-banking was. A big part and a scary part of crypto, which again led to the huge success of stablecoins.

• 17:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Did they come back and ask you to be a customer of the bank later?

• 17:21Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 17:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Did you?

• 17:22Speaker 04

  Uh, not yet.

• 17:25Anthony Pompliano?

  I figured.

• 17:28Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, let's talk about the product itself. One of the big things that I think eToro has done a great job of in Europe is with the CFDs. These contracts for differences and it's been a really big part of the business. I think there's a lot of American users who would like to use that product. But in America, we're not allowed to use that product. Do you think that that'll change in anytime soon or a kind of under this administration?

• 17:50Speaker 04

  I think it's, you know, different products, different names. Just as an example, one of our big announcements is launching perpetual 24/5 trading futures alongside 24/5 uh uh trading of stocks, therefore tokenized stocks as well. So I think generally tokenization of assets introduces a lot of new opportunities into the markets to bring in new types of innovation, whether by the way, it's just a tokenization of assets and traditional financing or potentially DeFi financing, right? So we are already seeing crypto assets trading on exchange on the CME.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  We see the CME launching basically indices that are trading 24/5 perpetual futures, replicating a bit what's happening in the crypto world into traditional assets. And I think over time, we'll see a lot of the innovation in the world of financing and the ability to leverage, which again, we see in DeFi as well, coming to the basically traditional assets that have been tokenized. So I think it's a part of that process where tokenization of assets create a much better ledger and less counterparty risk. And when you have a better ledger and less counterparty risk, you can introduce

• 19:11Speaker 04

  a lot of different features that we see today in DeFi, whether it's leverage or things like flash loan or things like lending against collateralized assets. And I think all of those technologies of DeFi are going to get basically borrowed into all types of tokenized assets.

• 19:28Anthony Pompliano?

  And so is the thought process that tokenization in a weird way to me is it's kind of akin to like an ETF wrapper, like an ETF for a lot of different, you know, kind of strategies. It turns something that was complex into a single click. So if you think of, you know, the S and P 500, you could have went and bought the 500 companies. Now you just one click, bam, I got exposure to the 500. There's covered call strategies. There's, you know, all these different kind of types of ETFs, but the wrapper simplified and now you just one click and you have exposure. It feels like what you're talking about is very similar. Like some of these concepts in DeFi are very confusing or very difficult to do. But if you can almost tokenize them and, you know, maybe you don't have to go really far on like the kind of DeFi. If you look at something

• 20:13Anthony Pompliano?

  like Athena, right? Kind of do this cash and carry trade. Anyone can go do it, but the ability to just simply one click and now you have exposure feels like that is where the world is going, especially with like the rise of retail investors. What's going on, guys? One of the most important trends in all of finance is the rise of the retail investor, what I call a self-directed investor. These are people, they don't have a financial advisor or a stockbroker. They simply go and learn on the internet and then they direct their own capital directly into the market. These people are taking Wall Street by storm. And so I'm going to bring all of us together on September 12th in New York City for the Independent Investor Summit. It's a one day event that I'm hosting where I'm gonna have a bunch of my friends come together and talk on stage, explain what their thoughts on the market are, what their best

• 20:56Anthony Pompliano?

  investment ideas are, and how they think you should change up your portfolio to better position yourself for the future. I've got Jeff Park, Jordy Visser, Darius Dale, Chris Camello, the Najarian brothers, and many, many more that are all coming. These people are incredibly smart. They've made lots of institutions, lots of money throughout their careers, and they now are going to bring this information and share it directly with you, an independent self-directed investor. So September 12th, the Independent Investor Summit in New York City. Please go into the description, click on the link there, get your ticket, and I'll see you in Manhattan on September 12.

• 21:31Speaker 04

  I think the the rise of retail investors and it's not only the rise of retailers investors, the rise of global retail investors, right? So Bitcoin is the assets that's most widely distributed across the globe. More than any in my my guess is more than currency, more than even the dollar or getting there and will be there, right? But definitely more than any stock. But eventually, when you think of ETFs, it does simplify significantly access to some markets, whether it's an index like S and P 500 or whether it's buying gold, right? Tokenization is basically the same, but it's wider. It's not only about tokenizing something that you can't trade like S and P 500.

• 22:14Speaker 04

  You can, but it's complex or gold, it's physical. But it's also about removing the global barriers, right? So it's very easy for somebody in the US to buy US stocks. Sometimes it's very hard to buy stocks of in Taiwan or in Japan unless somebody wrapped them as an ADR, right? So that's another type of wrapper. It's very hard to access hedge funds or private company stock, right? Once you tokenize them, it unlocks the ability for more institutions and people to basically access those products. And then for more people and companies to create innovative products around those newly issued tokens.

• 22:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Hmm. And then when you came to the US, this hyper competitive market, right? You know, it's like, in a weird way, all the killers in business want to win in the US. There's already a bunch of domestic players. You guys were, I would say, one of the big winners internationally that now is coming. What are some of the things that have gone well? And where's some of the areas that maybe, you know, have been harder in terms of entering the United States? Given. Exchanges in particular, everyone knows they got to figure out how to get users, right? Like, like the user growth, you guys did a great job over the last decade or so. But coming to the US, I think is like a whole different beast. And so like, what are kind of your takeaways from, from doing that?

• 23:40Speaker 04

  So first of all, I'm always surprised people assume the US is significantly more competitive than, let's say, the UK or Germany.

• 23:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Or American, where just egotistical arrogant assholes.

• 23:50Speaker 04

  I think at the end of the day, every market, I also sit on the board for the past 12 years of like the Israeli Schwab, where I saw growth, by the way, their stock went up 700% over the last like two and a half years. So I know the traditional industry, and the traditional industry is very similar across the globe. So you have like five very large investment houses, right? You have like the real big ones here are Fidelity and Schwab and BlackRock to some extent, but that's something a bit different and Vanguard to some extent, but those are like the $10 trillion, very large. And in every country, you have those very large investment houses, which are the 800 pound gorillas of the older generations,

• 24:33Speaker 04

  right? You have five very large banks and usually five very large insurance companies. Each of those represent roughly 80%. Whether you go, you go to Australia, to the UK, to Germany, anywhere you go, Spain, Italy, all of the countries, looks roughly the same. Very large, five financial institutions across asset management, across brokerage and investing, banks and insurance. And I think all of that is changing again to what we spoke about before. One is, our generation expects very different user experience to the markets. When we say a great product, we mean a great user experience in an application. When my

• 25:15Speaker 04

  father says a great financial product, he means a line in his Excel somewhere with an IZ number, right? So product becomes the user experience and, and basically the deal brokers, the neo-banks, the, you know, the entire new industry.

• 25:33Speaker 04

  History we are building is focused on that user experience, the digital user experience of the consumer. And we're much, much better than the traditional banks and asset managers. And then on the other hand, you have the technology that's empowering digital assets. That eventually has the transition of a hundred to two hundred trillion dollars over the next twenty five years. Where again, uh, Itoro has always been on that cutting edge of understanding those assets and enabling access to those assets who are of interest of those Gen Y and younger generations.

• 26:12Speaker 04

  So what you really see is a transition from older generations and older companies. And eventually trillions of dollars trickling down to newer companies focused on innovation and user experience. And you see that across the globe. And we've been very successful in Italy and France and Germany and Spain. But I don't speak those languages, English, at least I can speak roughly.

• 26:41Anthony Pompliano?

  I was gonna say very well.

• 26:44Anthony Pompliano?

  When the United States, you turn it on, you guys come here, you go public, US market. I'm assuming capital of capitalism is the US market. Um, what's it been like being a public company so far?

• 26:56Speaker 04

  Um, it's been great, but really the experience of going public in the US. Uh, I always, I, I've always said, uh, you know, there's a couple of moments in my life that I'll forever like remember that aha moment. Uh, one of them was connecting to the internet. I'm like, wow, I'm connected to everyone, everywhere. The second for me was like my first trade, when I like, like did a trade and I looked at the order book. And then I went to Yahoo Finance and I'm like, wow, my trade was booked in the actual books of the stock exchange. Uh, and the third, which for me was my blind was Bitcoin. Uh, now I've been through that experience of going public in the roadshow.

• 27:39Speaker 04

  And I have to say that's like the fourth big moment and for me. It's amazing because I've been passionate about capital markets since I was thirteen. I knew I wanted to deal with capital markets and technology since I was thirteen, since my first trade and have been in capital markets full time for the past eighteen years in Itoro. And since I was thirteen for thirty-one years now, always around capital markets. And only when I did the roadshow for Itoro and I saw, uh, you know, the, sadly, a book, when you raise money, you have the book of trying to raise five hundred. Eventually, you're seeing like every day, five hundred million dollars of interest, a billion dollars of interest, two billion dollars of interest, five billion dollars of interest.

• 28:20Speaker 04

  And you understand the depth of US capital markets.

• 28:25Anthony Pompliano?

  It's crazy.

• 28:26Speaker 04

  It's crazy. I met investors who jointly managed more than thirty trillion dollars. That's mind blowing, right? So you meet these amazing companies like BlackRock and Fidelity. And, you know, the sovereign wealth funds, where that's not necessarily US, uh, like capital, but they're all in US capital markets. And you, you see a very different capital market and a very different ecosystem. And you understand that the size of that capital market is something that, you know, just is, makes it very, very different than any other capital market or experience I've had in capital markets in my entire life.

• 29:11Speaker 04

  So it felt like, you know, finally, we are a part of capital markets. It was super exciting to stand on the desk in NASDAQ and say, uh, now, uh, finally, customers of Itoro can trade Itoro on Itoro.

• 29:27Anthony Pompliano?

  And what is the dynamic of that, right? Because you guys have a very interesting business where your customers are obviously putting money on the platform. They're buying stocks, whatever, but now they can buy your stock as well. And so have you seen overlaps or any lessons learned in terms of the types of people who are buying the stock versus the user base?

• 29:42Speaker 04

  Um, we have, so we look at Itoro's stock on the Itoro platform, just like any other stock. Um, I would say that, uh, what we're seeing, which is interesting, or have learned through the process is just like on Itoro, you have a lot of different type of investors. You have like the, the very active traders. Uh, you have the very sort of long, methodological, uh, value investors on Itoro. Uh, so actually what I've seen in capital markets is the same way that we analyze and look at the different types of investors in Itoro. You have exactly the same thing in capital markets, uh, here in the U.S. You have the hedge funds and the

• 30:24Speaker 04

  hedge funds are just like the active crypto traders looking for an opportunity, looking for arb, looking for something to flip. Uh, you have, uh, the very long-term investors. Those are like the value investors on Itoro. They're looking to do their analysis, understand the competitive landscape, understand the moat of the product and have like the army of, of internal analysts in places like BlackRock and Fidelity and others that really understand well the company and want to invest long-term. Uh, and then you have followers, uh, where, uh, they're just trying to understand like how successful is this going to be based on other people's research. We see that on Itoro as well. People are just coming in, looking at what other people are doing and just copying them, right? Copy trading is pretty good, right?

• 31:08Speaker 04

  Uh, it's been amazing to see that as well. Like we've constantly upgraded the copy trading and- Explain what it is for those that don't know. So on Itoro, the unique part of Itoro is, uh, we're a social network where people can actually see the performance of others on the platform itself. Uh, you can actually go to see my portfolio. It's a 32% on average for the last 12 years on Itoro. So I've been bragging, uh, during the IPO, when I met investors, I'm like, hey, look at my portfolio. I've been doing quite well, almost as good as your hedge fund or better. Um, but, uh, so, uh, you can actually see the trajectory of people and then out of the three and a half million funded brokerage accounts, 3,500 are basically on the path of becoming pro investors. We help them basically, uh, get certified.

• 31:52Speaker 04

  Fight as professional investors and get paid for other people copying them. So if you come to the platform, you can either trade on your own stocks from 22 different exchanges, about 200 now crypto assets alongside on exchange and on exchange derivatives that trade 24/5. And or you can see other people's performance. A lot of them, by the way, mind blowing. They're very, very good. I meet them in person by the way, once a year in our summit. And you see people with direct records of 25% on average for the past five years. And you click, you want to copy them and it copies their entire portfolio into the sum you selected. So you copy somebody with $10,000, you just copy his entire portfolio into your portfolio.

• 32:36Speaker 04

  And it trades every time they trade at the same time, the same performance and in your account.

• 32:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Now you keep mentioning 24/5 and most people say 24/7 when talking about things. You've mentioned around tokenization, you've mentioned around some of the trading, some of these assets. 24/5 refers to this idea of rather than Monday through Friday, there being kind of hours of operations to just trade all day long. Why is it not 24/7?

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• 36:56Speaker 04

  So the funny story, 2017, we're trading, we're trading crypto on Etoro, but we started from capital markets, right? From stocks and derivatives, which all trade, some of them trade 24/7 or less. And we're having these arguments and I'm telling my team, listen, we have to open up over the weekend trading. And they're like, you know, we'll need to recruit people to actually work 24/7 now if we want to open the markets. And I'm like, listen, it doesn't make sense that we close trading Friday night where Bitcoin continues to trade elsewhere in other exchanges. Like, we have to let people buy and sell during the weekend. So for us, like, coming from traditional markets into crypto markets,

• 37:40Speaker 04

  I remember that change and people were super skeptical. They were like, it's going to cost us a lot. Who's going to trade over the weekend? And I think over the, like, the first three months, we opened it. We actually saw the revenues of like a three-year return on what it costs. But, but the markets, you need to remember, started from a nine-hour day market, right? So people are used to the fact that it opens and closes at a certain time. Some markets have expanded that, like future markets, right? So future markets, the CME expanded trading significantly around assets like commodities. Currencies trade roughly 24/5, by the way. Very hard to trade currencies even 24/7. A lot of the problems in the history of crypto was the fact that you can't transfer euros and dollars over

• 38:25Speaker 04

  The weekend, so you get you get.

• 38:27Anthony Pompliano?

  You used to move money on to the exchange on Friday anticipating in case I want to do anything on over the weekend. I at least have the money on the exchange because if not, then you gotta wait till Monday morning.

• 38:38Speaker 04

  Exactly, and for businesses complicated, right? So that's also a part of sort of the emergence of stablecoin. So now real world assets eventually trade on traditional exchanges, traditional banks. They all shut down during weekends and that's why now the shift is first to 24/5. But I think the shift will go into 24/7 earlier than expected. So if you think of 24/5 trading on stocks, it actually happened because they saw crypto. I I believe that's because of crypto. People are looking at like the fact that crypto is trading 24/7 and they're like, hey, that's more revenues eventually for exchanges and for brokers and for everyone.

• 39:21Speaker 04

  So you saw that shift for 24/5 in the stock markets, by the way, not mostly. Top stocks here in the US markets now with perpetual futures on the CME or in other futures exchanges here in the US. But in many other countries, they still just trade nine hours a day. Technology like tokenization enables the transfer of assets 24/7. So if the assets are transferable 24/7, in theory, you could also find liquidity 24/7. But liquidity is hard, right? So tokenizing something, let's say you want to tokenize and I know you, we all believe that eventually real estate gets tokenized as well. So tokenizing a real estate building is one thing, but making sure that there's liquidity

• 40:07Speaker 04

  for people to actually buy and sell some of that real estate as a token 24/7. That's much harder, right? So suddenly you have a spread.

• 40:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Speaker 04

  Right? So the cost of trading could be like 20% per trade if there's no sufficient liquidity. So it's about scaling up liquidity, having more participants who are there 24/7. Using technology like automated market makers, I think that's coming for real world assets as well. Which means technology can always, like an AI agent, can be 24/7 running risk management and therefore creating liquidity for those tokenized assets. And when you have all of that, everything eventually becomes 24/7.

• 40:52Anthony Pompliano?

  And do you think that the legacy world can make the transition?

• 40:56Speaker 04

  I think I think they don't have a it's inevitable. They have to try or they'll get behind. Right? You wouldn't trade. Again, these things take a very long period of time, especially by the way in finance. Because if you think of where the vast majority of assets in the world, it's either inside existing financial institutions, which are very conservative, or in the hands of people who are over 60 year old. Right? So that's like 90, more than 95% of wealth in the world is in that bucket. Right? So so change happens slowly in traditional finance.

• 41:37Speaker 04

  And and change happens extremely fast in crypto finance. Right? So you you can, we've seen NFTs that suddenly become super expensive or super valuable or meme coins that go from zero to hero in a day or two. Right? So extremely fast versus extremely slow. And then we're going to see in the next five, 10 years, basically the convergence of that.

• 42:03Anthony Pompliano?

  So one of the critiques of the whole tokenization of equities has been, I don't actually own the stock. I own like a like almost like an ADR, you know, like I own like a claim on the stock. How do you think about the current state of tokenization where the companies themselves aren't tokenizing their stock? The future probably is that right where the issuer themselves says, hey, we're going to create it. We're going to own it. We're going to give you all the same rights. But this kind of transition period, like, are there risks or is that kind of like people are technically right on the structure? But it's not a it's kind of like a non-issue compared to what they think it is.

• 42:38Speaker 04

  I I think again, it's a it's a transition. But again, Bitcoin ETFs were actually the same thing, but opposite. Right? So when you own a Bitcoin ETF, you don't own the Bitcoin. Right? So Bitcoin Max, you know, people from the crypto, I don't know a lot of people from the crypto community who are actually buying Bitcoin ETFs versus buying Bitcoins. So most of the people within the crypto community who are crypto native. Like, why would I pay management fees and not hold my actual Bitcoin, hold them in a bank? Where I know the bank can maybe not open, can maybe tell me to move my assets uh somewhere else. Um, so uh it is, this is the same thing just happening uh in the opposite, in the opposite direction.

• 43:23Speaker 04

  Uh, I do think eventually, and there are groups of uh all of, most of the exchanges uh we know and are familiar with, like traditional exchanges like the NASDAQ, the CME, um, you know, the London Stock Exchange, Euronext, Deutsche Börse, the Abu Dhabi Stock Exchange. They are all looking at that opportunity of tokenization, of the ability to transfer directly those shares uh uh that are listed on the exchange. Uh, and of course of the business opportunity of twenty four seven and end of global financing, right? So all of the exchanges are looking into this opportunity. How fast does this become sort of top down versus bottom up?

• 44:04Speaker 04

  I think uh like, you know, like everything in crypto, people can have their projections. Uh, uh, but sometimes uh again, the most entertaining outcome happens. What are the big bets for you guys over the next couple of years? Tokenization sounds like a really big one. What else? I think access to global markets continue to be a very big part of what we believe in. Uh, we always see opportunities in surprising places. So funny enough, this year started with a meme stock version of Europeans, which was buying defense company's stock. So we were waking up and suddenly you saw like stocks that they've never heard their name. A thousand percent higher volume. Uh, and we're like, okay, this is a meme stock moment for Europeans. What are they actually trading?

• 44:49Speaker 04

  Very profitable uh defense company stocks, right? So we always see that opportunity where uh we see uh, you know, people are trading a specific asset class or stocks in a specific market and most people outside that specific sort of niche or story happening are not familiar with it. So that connects to the social part of Vitoro. And as a social network, what's amazing to be active in as a social network in seventy five countries is you see how that information suddenly flows. And suddenly you see our Australian customers buying European shares because Europeans are having their meme stock rally. Um. And we see that all the time. We see ideas that are flowing from customers across the globe.

• 45:33Speaker 04

  And there's no doubt that the biggest game changer in trading and investing is AI. Um. I've been in the space, you know, I've been managing my portfolio well over the past twelve years on Etoro. Would you say your performance was? What, like roughly thirty two percent on average a year, but including crypto as well. So crypto is like fifty now, a bit less, maybe forty percent. Yeah. Uh. Of my portfolio. But I I look the I start when I started trading, I when I was sixteen, I started building like. Algorithms to trade the markets, sort of that connection between the love for capital markets and love for technology.

• 46:12Speaker 04

  But it's always been hard to actually establish something that trades automatically for me, although I know the math, right? The math is out there of how to optimize a portfolio, uh, but I don't have the time, uh, cause I'm managing Etoro. To actually manage my portfolio twenty four seven. I'm also need to sleep and take care of my five kids. Um. But now with AI. You know, we can start building in, uh, we'll be launching soon a couple of very, very cool products around it. Of every trade you make, you can have an AI agent connected to that trade, asking you, why did you do that trade? How do you manage that trade over time? Uh, you can basically be as good in your portfolio.

• 46:53Speaker 04

  As Jim Simmons from Renaissance and Stevie Cole from Point Seventy Two, uh, and Warren Buffett, right? Because you're building, you can build those agents to manage your portfolio. And there's no doubt that machines can make better investment decisions. Uh, and now that path of how do retail investors suddenly have access to something that a year and a half ago? If you'd ask me in Etoro, do I think that our investors would be able to use the same level of technology? Access to the market, speed of execution and usage of AI to analyze everything happening in the world 24/7. I would say no way, Jose. Today, it's like that's the, you know, it's we're getting there.

• 47:35Speaker 04

  And we'll be announcing a lot of tools that basically enable each of our customers to be as good as potentially the best hedge funds in the world.

• 47:45Anthony Pompliano?

  It does feel like, um, in a weird way, everyone for the last decade has been trying to get the users. Now what you almost want is you want the users to sign up and then just get their AI agents or their like automated systems to start trading. Um, and maybe there's like different risk levels, different your strategies that they want to employ. But why would you not at least want to have the automated agent help you, let alone replace you?

• 48:10Speaker 04

  I, I think it's about helping versus replacing at this stage. Uh, because I do think it's a lot about preference, right? So, uh, I could give you probably a pill that would give you all of the nutrition for the entire day. And I'm like, hey, you don't need to eat steak, uh, or, uh, or, you know, or, or drink Coca-Cola cause that pill is enough and you'll be healthy. So stop eating everything you love, right? I think a lot of, one of the greatest thing around investing i- is connecting people's emotions, uh, uh, and logic to what they invest in, right? So when you look at Bitcoin, you see a lot of passion, right?

• 48:53Speaker 04

  You look at Michael Saylor talking about Bitcoin, there's a lot of for you, there's a lot of passion around it, a lot of belief, right? You don't want to replace that with a machine. You want investors like Tesla investors that like love Tesla and talk about Tesla. You want that to be a part of it because you can't expect machines necessarily to have a long-term vision projection, right? Machines can't necessarily estimate or, uh, predict what you think on Bitcoin on 2035. Uh, uh, or where Tesla is going to sell their taxi rowboats in 2035? Or how much of enterprise is going to be? In the hands of Microsoft versus Nvidia and Meta, right?

• 49:36Speaker 04

  So long-term projections and therefore the capability of investing in companies for long term. Because you ask what Warren Buffett always says, like, ask yourself, is this company going to be there in 30 years? And I'm going to see my grandchildren asking me to buy products of that company. If that's the case, that's a great company because because basically it means it's there for 30 years. And I have five kids, or hopefully 25 grandchildren. If they all want Netflix and a Disney subscription, that's exponential growth for those companies.

• 50:13Anthony Pompliano?

  What about private markets? It feels like people now are trying to figure out how to tokenize private markets or give people access. In the US, there's the whole accreditation issue. Like, do you guys ever tempted to go and do anything there?

• 50:23Speaker 04

  We were definitely looking at it. The biggest challenge again, and that's also what's unlocking right now, is regulatory landscape. I think the reason now tokenized real-world assets are basically coming back, right? Because we initially launched some of them in 2019. Is you have in Europe, a new regulatory environment, MICA, that came into effect at the beginning of the year, which enables a lot of existing financial issuers, including banks and insurance companies and asset managers, to actually explore these new rules that enable to launch different types of tokenized assets. So regulation is a big part of that because when you tokenize a real-world assets,

• 51:05Speaker 04

  you have to have that connection between the real world and the ownership and the tokenization of assets, right? Otherwise, it's very hard, it's all based on trust.

• 51:16Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like not enforceable.

• 51:17Speaker 04

  It's not enforceable, so it's based on trust. And you want it to be based on more than just trust. So regulatory landscape in Europe, coming soon in the UK. Now with a genius act is for stable coins, but I think a lot of people expect that to expand here in the US with new rules coming from the SEC and CFTC. So I think that puts the framework where it needs to be to enable regulated finance. financial institutions to actually issue new types of tokens. And then each country has their own rules, their own regulations. So while in theory crypto was easy and Bitcoin was easy and it was not. If you were there from very early on, it was very hard for crypto companies to

• 52:02Speaker 04

  open bank accounts or to set up relationships with financial institutions or to understand where they want to set up. I think it's the same now with tokenized assets. It's a bit complicated because somebody in the US and somebody in Europe and the UK and Singapore each have different rules and regulations. But a lot of that is being written now on chain, which is interesting.

• 52:25Anthony Pompliano?

  How much money do you think you guys spend on all the regulatory kind of like compliance stuff? How many people do you have?

• 52:31Speaker 04

  Well, we're 1,500 people globally.

• 52:36Speaker 04

  A lot of the efforts in Itoro are, I'd split them into roughly three. But one is technology. So about 600 people are in our engineering and solutions group. And it's a lot of the focus right now is how can we build faster with AI? And what does it mean to be an investment platform for our customers and the user experience with AI for our customers, right? So a lot of the engineering now, 42% of code in Itoro is actually written by AI.

• 53:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, really?

• 53:13Speaker 04

  Forty-two percent and like my ask for the team is I want to see that in 80% by the end of the year. We've actually enabled.

• 53:21Anthony Pompliano?

  How are you doing that? Is that like Devin from cognition or?

• 53:25Speaker 04

  A lot of it with the cursor and Claude. But we started now experimenting with Grok as well. So it's interesting, like the models, they improve so. They're improving so fast.

• 53:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Grok four heavy.

• 53:37Speaker 04

  It's mind blowing how fast things are improving. We just opened, there's a company called Base44, which enables people to actually write their idea for an app. So we just like gave a lot of people. Etoro access to it and are thinking of how do we open this for customers potentially to build their own apps, right? So AI is a big theme within engineering. Then you have sort of the global operations, which include the governance, the risk setting up of the regulatory framework of Etoro, which spans across the globe. So 12 different regions with regulated entities, which cater to both.

• 54:19Speaker 04

  By the way, we're, we have the Etoro Money products, which is a banking card, basically, or Visa debit card, which has been launched in Europe in the UK. We're in payments, we're enabling people to pay in crypto and in fiat money to their payments. And that alongside trading, investing and wealth management, like the equivalent of 401ks and IRAs. Here in the US, we're doing in Australia, in the UK and in France. So about a third, I would say, goes to basically global operations, compliance, risk, et cetera. And then the other third would go mostly to customer facing, whether it's marketing activities,

• 55:00Speaker 04

  which also do awesome stuff with AI, or whether it's our customer service across the globe, servicing three and a half million brokerage accounts, speaking 14 different languages. So you get out of my room, you see like 200 people and you hear like all the different languages like French, Spanish, Arabic, all of the languages. So it's very cool.

• 55:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Before I let you go, what are the latest public numbers on Etoro in terms of size, revenue, things like that?

• 55:29Speaker 04

  I'll give you 2020, the end of 2024, we published Q1 already and Q2's expected earnings in the 12th of August.

• 55:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Don't tell me those ones.

• 55:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course. But again, last year, we had $930 million top line, three and a half million brokerage accounts, with about $17 billion of assets. And it's amazing to see, by the way, how the assets of our customers grow from year to year. And the average size of accounts are growing year over year. And one of the, I think, Biggest achievements we've had since 2021 to 2024 was significant profitability. So we had over $300 million of a bit of profit for 2024. And that was a great path to become a public company with almost a billion dollar top line,

• 56:20Speaker 04

  300 million dollar bottom line and continued user growth across the globe.

• 56:26Anthony Pompliano?

  It's great numbers.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 56:28Anthony Pompliano?

  And what you had three and a half million users.

• 56:30Speaker 04

  Founded accounts.

• 56:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Founded accounts. Yeah, that's that's real. Right. All right. Where can we send people to find you on the internet?

• 56:37Speaker 04

  Mostly on X.

• 56:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I see you on there.

• 56:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. I'm tweeting.

• 56:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Posting, I think. It's all right. I'm waiting for you to start posting AI photos of yourself.

• 56:48Speaker 04

  I think you have one of me riding a bull when we did the IPO.

• 56:54Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So what is your X account?

• 56:56Speaker 04

  Yoni Assia, Y O N I A S S I A.

• 56:59Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, easy. Thank you for doing this. Do it again in the future.

• 57:02Speaker 04

  Thank you very much.