KHC 115 - Max Jolliffe

Max, Jolliffe, runner, surfer, and ex-skater. Max ran a 2:36 in the California International Marathon, finished second in his first 100-mile mountain race, the SAMO 100, and won the inaugural Saddles 50 trail race right after a 700-day run streak. Max and Cam cover Max’s racing career, how he got into running, getting over addiction, strategies in running marathons and more! Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Max: https://www.instagram.com/woah_max Thank you to our sponsors: Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off GoHunt: https://gohunt.com/ use code CAM when you sign up for $50 towards the gear shop + 10% off the GoHunt store Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Sig Sauer: https://www.sigsauer.com/ use code CAM10 for 10% off optics Timestamps: 00:00:00 Documentaries on Max 00:04:26 An Inspirational Call that Pushed Max to the Finish 00:08:28 Suffering Brings You Closer to God 00:10:23 Imposter Syndrome & Pushing the Limits 00:11:27 Teamwork & Strategy - Moab 240 Race 00:13:26 Sleep & the Willpower to Push Past the Pain 00:19:28 Training for the Moab 240 00:21:29 Racing to Train 00:23:28 TDS Marathon (Sur les Traces des Ducs de Savoie) 00:25:58 Recovering from Addiction 00:30:51 Ad Break (MUD\WTR & Ketone-IQ) 00:33:15 How Max Got into Running 00:36:36 Max’s First Race 00:38:34 Max’s First 100 Mile Race 00:43:41 Training for Cocodona 00:46:57 Vertical Goals 00:51:06 Cocodona & Running in the Heat 00:53:05 Max’s Diet for Races 00:54:40 Protecting Your Feet During Races & Race Shoes 01:01:50 Max’s Inspirations in Running & Future Goals 01:06:29 Max’s Sponsors & Creating Content 01:09:27 Working a Full Time Job While Racing 01:13:15 Q - Fu#$, Marry, Kill - Running, Skateboarding, Surfing 01:14:49 Q - Will You Bring the Hair Back? 01:15:17 Q - Balancing Empathy with Competitors with a Drive to Win? 01:17:26 Max’s Outlook on Hunting 01:21:30 Q - Your Mindset While Being Chased & Being in the Lead? 01:25:41 Q - The Value of a Teammate That’s Always Pushing You? 01:28:15 Sally McRae 01:29:39 Q - The Thought Process of Deciding to Run Alone? 01:36:09 Q - What Do You Want Your Legacy to be? 01:37:09 Exploring Eugene

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:14Cameron Hanes?

  Alright, well, this is a Keep Ham... are we live, right?

• 0:18Speaker 01

  We're live.

• 0:18Cameron Hanes?

  Keep Ham and Collective with Max. Well, I don't want to screw this up, but I say in my head I see Joleth.

• 0:23Speaker 02

  That's exactly correct.

• 0:25Cameron Hanes?

  Is that right?

• 0:25Speaker 02

  People mess it up all the time, but you nailed it, yeah.

• 0:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, you got, there's a lot of Fs and Is and stuff.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  Too many Fs, too many E's. There's an E at the end that you probably don't really need, but yeah.

• 0:35Cameron Hanes?

  Well, man, let's see, let me think about how I found out about, well, I found out about you from Tyler.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:43Cameron Hanes?

  And during Moab, I believe.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  During Moab, yeah.

• 0:45Cameron Hanes?

  And, uh, this is, you know, I'll just like, like, cut to the chase. So, you sent me the link to your film, King of Moab. And I knew about the race because of that, that call that, that day during the race, but the film, dude, it's amazing. It's like, I'm addicted to Ultra and not because I'm like this world class or whatever. I just love the storytelling of a good film. You know, Billy Yang has done a good job with it.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  He's amazing, yeah.

• 1:14Cameron Hanes?

  Courtney's had some really good ones on her. The Source was one that stands out to me. But your film that I just watched the other night was, uh, I don't want to disrespect any other film, but dude, it is powerful.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  Thank you, man. Thank you. That seriously means the world to me. And we spent a lot of time, I mean, the film's been in the works for almost a year now. And, uh, yeah, me and Tyler, shout out to Tyler Wolter. I mean, just an incredible, incredible filmmaker. I know you've done some work with him in the past. And yeah, he just like knocked it out of the park. And luckily I was able to pull off something amazing to really, really make the story, uh, complete.

• 1:55Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, is, uh, I just like that, you know, we go through these long races and there's so many ups and downs.

• 2:05Cameron Hanes?

  We got the, we got the

• 2:06Speaker 02

  We turned on the warm filter.

• 2:07Cameron Hanes?

  I know, the disco lights going.

• 2:11Cameron Hanes?

  It's all good. Yeah, you'll, oh, did you fix it already? It seems a little different. Well, for the, for the listeners, we just had a little, I don't know what, little light issue.

• 2:25Cameron Hanes?

  We're back.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  We're partying.

• 2:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, that's good, though. Yeah, we just need some cigarette smoke in here. It's like an interrogation. But no, that, that race, I mean, yeah, that film, you know, I'd seen The Beach Kid, I think is another one on you. And that's when I, I watched that and I think afterwards, because I'm like, dang, this, this guy, I like this guy's persona or just how he portrays himself. And then I watched that one and then I heard or learned more about your story, you know, overcoming addiction and, you know, all the stuff. But in that film, you're just so vulnerable and real. That's what stood out to me.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:09Cameron Hanes?

  And you just explained the struggles you're going through and how it felt.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:14Cameron Hanes?

  What to you, I know you did a premiere back in your hometown. What stands out to you on that experience?

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Well, I, I thought the coolest thing was, and a lot of my friends and family, they know I'm out there running these 100 mile races, 240 mile races, and they know it's like this crazy endeavor that I'm undertaking and it's gnarly and it was, it was cool for me to show them like kind of firsthand, like what actually goes into all this and for them to see the struggle. I think it just like gave everyone a perspective on just how hard these things really are and how beautiful the landscapes are and like maybe gave some of my friends an understanding of like why I'm doing this. Yeah.

• 3:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Did they, so they got it, the people at the premiere?

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, after, after the film ended, I was standing there up front by the stage and it was, for forty-five minutes, I was just shaking hands and people, yeah, the, the response from everyone was just incredible. Yeah, just mind blowing.

• 4:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I, I, I think I told you, but I mean, got choked up watching it.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:20Cameron Hanes?

  It was, it was like, and I can't think of another word, but powerful.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you, thank you. And I seriously could not have done it without you. Like, in the film, there's a moment where I get a video message from Kim.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 4:38Cameron Hanes?

  You were killing it out there, Moab two forty. What an epic event. And I cannot believe you were right there. You were right there, so close to first place. And I know it's tough. I know the, the pain you're feeling now is, um, probably seems unbearable.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 4:57Cameron Hanes?

  But you were on the home stretch. All your hopes and dreams are right there in front of you. Go get them. Now's the chance, now's the chance to create that legacy you've always dreamed of. Let's make a story. You know, that's what, that's why we do events and put ourselves through things like this, is because we want a story to tell. What's your story gonna be?

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Oh, we're gonna tell a story.

• 5:15Cameron Hanes?

  That you reeled in first place and won the Moab two forty? I hope so. Keep hammering, brother.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Damn. And, uh, it was seriously, and I've told you this, it was the catalyst that led me to this crazy come from behind victory. Like, I was, it was, I was in almost an impossible situation to come back from. And I got this message from you. And I don't know if we can, like, play it on the podcast, or if we have a copy of it or something, but it was just the most inspirational message that I could have even gotten at that point. And that, you know, uh, set me on fire. And I ended up winning the race. And really, like, my life changed because of you. So, um, I'm like forever indebted to you. Yeah.

• 5:59Cameron Hanes?

  Dude, that's so nice. Um, just to set the stage, it was, you were, I think, forty mile, or wait, let me think. No, forty miles to go, fifteen miles back. Is that what it was?

• 6:09Speaker 02

  So at the mile 200, the Geyser Pass aid station, I was 15 miles behind the leader.

• 6:14Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Which with 40 miles to go is.

• 6:16Cameron Hanes?

  Not looking good.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  No, no. And I was in, I was in rough shape that, that section that I had come through getting into that aid station was by far the most difficult. And, uh, yeah, it was just like a miracle that I was able to, to get my legs back and start running good again that late in the race.

• 6:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, definitely. There's a couple of things that stand out to me. I mean, you struggling so much it, and I know how it feels. Um, not, maybe not exactly because everybody's different, but I, I heard you guys were doing one mile an hour.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  But yeah.

• 6:48Cameron Hanes?

  Something like, and, and you know as well as I do, if you're doing a 240 mile race.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:54Cameron Hanes?

  One mile an hour, not going to work.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 6:57Cameron Hanes?

  Especially if the goal is to win.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Right, right. Yeah. And I was, I was right there and the, yeah, it was just, we had encountered this section where it seemed like everything was going wrong. Like we got lost, we ran out of water, my watch died, his phone died. It just, everything was going awry. And, um, yeah, there was, it was like, I remember being three or four miles out from that aid station and I kept going like, how far is the aid station? How far is the aid station? And we were just four miles for like an hour. And I was like, oh my God, this is so brutal. Yeah.

• 7:31Cameron Hanes?

  Well, the, the part that really got me, I mean, of course, seeing somebody struggle and, and, and fight with all they have. But when you said, the line that stands out to me was God gave me my legs back.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:44Cameron Hanes?

  That.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  I mean, multiple times during that race.

• 7:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  It was from mile 140 on each crude aid station I'd come into, it was, my legs were so shot. I would look down at my quads and my muscle fibers in my quads were just like fluttering.

• 8:00Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  And, uh, yeah, somehow I would just lay down for a quick 40 minute nap and I'd get up and I'd be like, oh, my legs actually feel like maybe I can make it to the next aid station. It was just like, okay, let's just get to the next spot. Let's just get to the next spot. And, uh, yeah, after that, that last stop, it was like my legs had fully come back and I ran some of my fastest splits of the entire race after that, uh, Geyser Pass aid station at mile 200.

• 8:26Cameron Hanes?

  That's amazing. Yeah. It's a.

• 8:29Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know, powerful, incredible story. You know, and you talking about that, the pain. I was, I have this massage therapist and we were talking about it last night and it's like when you, when people feel it seems like, and you can tell me your perspective, when they feel closest to God is when you're suffering so much because in regular life, people aren't reaching out to God for help. It's like, it's all good, whatever. But when you really

• 8:59Speaker 02

  When you're desperate.

• 9:00Cameron Hanes?

  When you're desperate, when you have nowhere else to turn, that's when people start talking to God. And that's when you talk about suffering and that's when people, that's when you feel his presence. And is that what?

• 9:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I felt, I felt the power and it was like, I, I had, I was just sitting there thinking like, I don't know how I'm going to be able to even finish this race. And I, I pride myself on being someone who's like never going to quit, never going to give up. Like I never DNF'd a race and I, like each one of those aid stations, I was like really questioning my spirit. Like, am I going to even be able to finish this thing, you know? And yeah, it was like just a power greater than myself that came over me. And yeah, I, I have a hard time even taking credit for it, you know, like the, the win, the race, like it was not only a team effort, like I had all my friends, I had my family there,

• 9:55Speaker 02

  my girlfriend Mackenzie, like it's really this weirdly this team sport. Like I had a group of people that were almost like carrying me along and I'm just like the vehicle. And yeah, I was, it was mind blowing, just the whole experience. And that being my first 200 mile race. And yeah, it was, I, I had no idea that I was even going to come close to winning. And yeah, just a miracle.

• 10:19Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, it was, it was, yeah, amazing. I'm. Do you ever, I like that attitude where you're, you're never going to quit. This is who you are. I know I've been in like long, things like that or really tough situations. And I, I start talking to myself going, I'm, I'm a fake.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Oh dude.

• 10:41Cameron Hanes?

  I, I pretend like I'm, I'm not tough because I want to quit.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:45Cameron Hanes?

  And it's just like, you start, I don't even know how to explain it.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  It's like kind of an imposter syndrome.

• 10:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you're a fraud.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Like people are going to find out that I'm not actually that good of an athlete. You know, I'm just like really good at suffering or, or being able to manage and deal with pain. But yeah, no, I totally get that.

• 11:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Cause I, you start to question yourself and like everything you stand for. But that's what, that's what's so special about it too. It's because where else are you ever gonna be faced with that reality? You know, and uh, yeah, I know, but when we push through and we overcome, then okay. Well, maybe we're back on track.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  That's the magic. Yeah.

• 11:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's, that's the magic. Um, but yeah, I want to talk about, uh, yeah. Your girlfriend was a key part of that. I loved how you guys, you're so, you had so much strategy.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:34Cameron Hanes?

  That's where I learned a lot from that.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And that was kind of my, I, I knew I was kind of an underdog. Like I've only been a professional ultra runner for a year and uh, every race, I'm just like trying to, trying to learn. And like really learning things on the fly, like with Moab, I didn't know how I was going to handle the sleep deprivation. Like dealing with, uh, keeping my nutrition up for 69 hours straight, dealing with hydration, like my, my gear, my, God, I learned so much about like my feet and taking care of my feet and chafing and stuff. Like those were like some of the biggest issues that like really, really affected me. So going into this thing, I was just like kind of winging it. And um, I did everything that I could to prepare just all the factors that I knew I had control of.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Like I really nailed my hydration. I really nailed my nutrition. Uh, the sleep actually worked out pretty well for me as well. And I just tried to be the most prepared person going into that race and. I don't know if anyone trained more than me in that race. Yeah, I was put, I mean, for an entire year from when I entered the lottery, I was like, my entire year is being dedicated to mile up to 40 and I ran probably 100 plus mile weeks for, I mean, aside from maybe a couple down weeks after races, but it was like 120, 130 mile weeks for the entire year. Yeah.

• 12:53Cameron Hanes?

  Did you? Okay. Well, I didn't, I didn't realize that. People are always pretty fixated on that mileage and how much you get in, you know, there's been like, there's different approaches. That's what's crazy about especially these long ones and Courtney and I talked about, we don't know if you can really nail the 200 plus, but like the 100 plus, if you look at David Roach, you know, we talked about, about this Courtney and I did about how people are kind of dialing in the 100 mile distance. It's one day, it's no sleep issues. You're just like, you get, as you said, the hydration, the nutrition, the training, and you can kind of predict what's going to happen. The 200, so many different factors.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  So many outside factors.

• 13:35Cameron Hanes?

  I was, I was curious, how much did you sleep?

• 13:38Speaker 02

  So I slept a total of, I think an hour and a half. So three 40 minute naps at three of the crude aid stations and then one or two, just five minute dirt naps, which was kind of a crazy experience, like laying down, like the story of Courtney, when she lays down for one minute, wakes up and is like, how long was I asleep? And they're like, one minute. And she's like, all right, let's go. Like it was, it felt like that. Like I had gone out for five minutes and I was like, you let me sleep for too long. And he's like, no, it was five minutes. Let's go. Yeah.

• 14:07Cameron Hanes?

  That's how that works. I don't know if it's like sustainable for life.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  It's definitely not healthy. Yeah, no.

• 14:14Cameron Hanes?

  It does work in those moments. Me and Taylor did that too. I think maybe a Bigfoot, but yeah, same thing. Just like, thought I slept forever and wasted all this time. It's like, no, a minute.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  It's like a time warp.

• 14:26Cameron Hanes?

  It's so crazy. So, okay. So what'd you say? Three 40 minute, how long did she say it? An hour?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  About an hour and a half total, I think. Yeah. But like, there's, there's a part of me where I think the, the sleep is really Crucial for your mind. Like, I know people get really delirious and have hallucinations and stuff. And if you're experiencing something like that, like you probably should go unconscious for a short amount of time to reset your brain. But um, I didn't have any, I felt like I could have stayed awake the whole time that the, the stops in the sleep was, I felt more restorative for my body in a weird way, like for my legs. And maybe I could have just sat there for 40 minutes and my legs would have.

• 15:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  Maybe horizontal, just sat there and my legs would have come back. But uh, yeah, I really didn't feel like, I didn't have any hallucinations. I was very coherent and clear minded the entire race. So yeah, I've, I still don't even know what, what the proper sleep formula is.

• 15:20Cameron Hanes?

  That's, yeah, that's kind of the point. It's like, and I've never hallucinated either. Um, I think I slept for like a couple of hours during that race. I didn't, I didn't finish as fast as, I was like in 78 or nine or something like that. So a little slower, but still, yeah, it's, it's weird just how everybody's body is, uh, I don't know. That's what's fascinating about the multi-day races.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Right. And is that, is, does nutrition and hydration play a factor in how your, how your mind is working for this? Yeah, there's so many, it's a giant math equation.

• 15:51Cameron Hanes?

  What would this do? Like, what would a ketone IQ do?

• 15:54Speaker 02

  Oh, I was drinking these every, every stop.

• 15:56Cameron Hanes?

  Were you?

• 15:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:57Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:58Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I need to have one right now.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Let's do it. Let's do it. Here, cheers.

• 16:01Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah. There you go. Thanks, Michael Brand. Jeffrey Wu.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Shout out.

• 16:06Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm. Now, these uh, when I first started taking these, I was like, God, those taste terrible. Now I'm used to it.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  The peach ones are good.

• 16:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, now I kind of like it.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. But uh, yeah, so that is, that is interesting. I've always wanted like a Huberman or, or a, Dr. Galpin to study like the sleep deprivation, just pushing like what's, because I've always, I've talked to, uh, Huberman so many times about willpower. I was fascinated about why somebody can push and why other people can't.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  The power of the mind.

• 16:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. How do you, how can somebody push like a coroner like you or like when anybody else would quit?

• 16:48Speaker 02

  I have no idea.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  And like, maybe that's just comes down to the the character of the person and the life that they've lived and all of their experiences leading up to like that moment where you're there having to make a decision like, do I continue on or do I give up?

• 17:05Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and I don't know, I just, I'm fascinated by why certain people can just not quit and just keep and you know, it hurts.

• 17:19Cameron Hanes?

  You can't even really explain the pain or I can't, but it's just like, all you want to do is stop.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:24Cameron Hanes?

  But you can't.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  You can't. Yeah, and I don't know, maybe it's the competition, maybe it's just, yeah, like I said, life experience. Like I've dealt with a lot of struggles in life and I know that no matter what situation I'm in during a race, I've I've been in worse spots and I've overcome more difficult things like getting sober, like that was the hardest thing I ever did in my entire life and no matter how much pain I'm in, I just know that I can get through no matter what, you know, as long as I just don't give up, just keep moving forward, just keep moving forward, even if it's just walking one mile an hour, like you can keep moving like and just problem solving along the way like it's like it's just a big math equation, like are you low on nutrition?

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Are you low on hydration? Do you need more electrolytes? Do you need this or that? It's like, anything can change how you're feeling in a race like that and you're always going to feel different, maybe 30 minutes, an hour later even. So, yeah, it's, it's crazy.

• 18:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's, it's, but that's why we love it, I guess. I guess that's why we love it. I think.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  It's the challenge.

• 18:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Doing hard things.

• 18:33Cameron Hanes?

  I'm trying to think why I love it. So it's like, I know I love the mountains.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:37Cameron Hanes?

  I know I love cool people. I know I love doing big adventures. So I guess that's enough.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  That's more than enough. Yeah.

• 18:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Any one of those things would be enough.

• 18:46Cameron Hanes?

  Right. And then, and then you want to see what you're capable of, right? So that's why we do it.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  Testing yourself.

• 18:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So you got this distance, how long is it going to take you to cover that distance?

• 18:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:56Cameron Hanes?

  With these conditions.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  Where are they going to draw the line for these races? Like I know Candace is doing the 300 starting this year, like what, where does it end?

• 19:04Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. I don't know. I know Courtney and I always talked about wanting to do 500.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  That's badass.

• 19:11Cameron Hanes?

  And she, you know, that's a Colorado trail essentially.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:14Cameron Hanes?

  She tried that.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:15Cameron Hanes?

  For the FKT. But, uh, yeah, that's, yeah, that sleep definitely plays a part in that. Um, but yeah, I'm just, it's pretty, pretty exciting to think about. Um, okay. So we got the training, the training you're putting in tons of miles.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:31Cameron Hanes?

  Um, I'm curious about like, how, how is your body holding up during like the 120, 130 mile weeks? And would you do all your runs at one time or split them up?

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Um, yeah. So my, I was really just focused on volume and I kind of structured my year, um, with races leading up to Moab. So I ran this race called Sean O'Brien. It was a hundred K. And then in April, I ran this hundred miler, miler called Leona Divide. Um, and then I ran TDS at UTMB a couple of months after that. So I had kind of structured my year with like increasing these, the difficulty of these races and just tried to be super, super consistent with my training. It was like after I'd finish a race, it was like, I'd barely take any time off. And I'm on a run streak, so I still have to run every day, which like,

• 20:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Kind of sucks, uh, especially after a hundred miler or a 200 miler, having to limp a mile the next day. But, um, I really just wanted to focus on keeping my training super consistent throughout the year. So it was like, I didn't let up off the gas. It was like, as soon as I finished one race, it was straight into training for the next one. And I think all of that fitness compounded leading into Moab and just put me in like a really, really good spot. And, um, yeah, my body, my body handled the mileage fine. Like I've, I spent a long time like building out like my run streaks like over three years. So I've spent a really long time building my mileage really, really slowly. And, um, yeah, I, I could have, I could have done it better. Like I could have done more specific workouts and like the, the whole David Roche

• 21:07Speaker 02

  training theory that we're seeing on his YouTube now, it's like so different than what I was doing for a race like Moab. And maybe it does need to be different for a race like Moab, but, uh, Maybe being more specific with my training could have been good. I don't know. I'm still trying to figure this whole thing out. I don't have a, never had a coach. I'm just like kind of winging, I'm just kind of winging it.

• 21:26Cameron Hanes?

  Well, you're doing, you're doing a great job.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 21:29Cameron Hanes?

  How critical do you think that the races are in between that? Because as we know, we push harder in a race, you know, so you could get the same mileage in training by yourself, but how important is that the race experience?

• 21:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the race forces you to push yourself and do a really hard effort and like those, the races leading up can be like good like benchmarks for seeing where your fitness is at. And one of my, one of my, I mean, I'd say he's like my mentor in ultra running, Jesse Haynes. He, I mean, dude's a legend and he, he does the same thing. Like he'll plan his year and race, like he races to train, you know, like he, he does races in training for other races. So yeah, I thought that was like really cool and super helpful. And I think it was super beneficial to me too, just with my year this year. Yeah.

• 22:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So most of the time they'll, they'll have an A race. I remember, excuse me, but I remember way back, my first ultra, I believe, do you know who Scott Jurick is?

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I met Scott at TRE this year. Super nice guy. He's incredible person. Yeah.

• 22:34Cameron Hanes?

  Well, yeah, I know. And just a legend. But so this 2005 and it was this 50K up here in Corvallis called McDonald Forest. And I, I ran it and I don't know, maybe it was, I think it was a first or second time ultra, but he ran slow and I was like, man, this is a, you know, legend. He's won Western seven times or whatever it was. But that was just, it wasn't, he just wanted time on the feet.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 22:59Cameron Hanes?

  It's like, you're not going for PR every time.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Right. And you got aid stations set up along the way. So it's logistically an easy way to do a huge day, a 50 mile day and like not have to worry about, yeah, like getting your fuel and everything. Yeah.

• 23:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So why would he care about winning McDonald Forest? When he's, his bigger goal is to win Western. So I didn't understand that A race, this and that. I thought every time you go out is to win, right? And, but yeah, that, so that's interesting. Yeah. Cause I, I watched your film, I think on, it was at, you said TDS?

• 23:33Speaker 02

  TDS, yeah.

• 23:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's the UTMB race.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  It's a race at UTMB. Yeah, it's a hundred miler. It's like, I think people call it the evil stepsister of the UTMB main race. It's like known for being more technical. It's a little bit shorter, but it was like really, a really, really hard race. And what's cool about that race is it starts at midnight. So you're kind of doing a, almost a multi-day. It's like you're running through two nights.

• 23:58Cameron Hanes?

  Right, okay.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  So I was like, that's like kind of a perfect little taste of what I'm gonna experience at Moab. So, uh, yeah, it was just each race I had throughout the year was just harder and harder. And TDS was like really, really hard.

• 24:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I bet. I mean, I've heard about the mountains over there.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:13Cameron Hanes?

  I've never been there, but.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  You gotta come out.

• 24:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  It's so, it's so cool.

• 24:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, cuz I asked Courtney when we were running this weekend, um, about poles and different things like that over there. Like everybody, a lot of people, almost everybody uses poles cuz it's so steep or whatever. And she's like, that's where, I think it's kind of a skill to develop is how to use those poles.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  Well, and a lot of those guys are like skiers in the winter. So they're super used to using poles. Yeah.

• 24:41Cameron Hanes?

  Cuz it, but she was saying how steep, it's like, I go, do you try to run those hills? She's like, no.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Impossible. Yeah. Some of those climbs are impossible to run. Yeah.

• 24:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. How much climb was on that one?

• 24:52Speaker 02

  I think it was like thirty, thirty-one thousand in ninety-four miles. Yeah, so.

• 24:57Cameron Hanes?

  Brutal, dude.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, the same elevation of Moab, but in ninety-four miles.

• 25:01Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, that is brutal.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:03Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  But so, so beautiful, so fun. It was, yeah, incredible.

• 25:08Cameron Hanes?

  I know when you're, I think it must be Chamonix where, are you looking at the mountain right there? It looks like just a solid wall.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  So, yeah, TDS, it actually starts on the other side of the mountain in, I'm gonna botch the name, Cormier, Cormier.

• 25:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  And, uh, it's a big, it's a big route around the mountain. The UTMB main event is just a loop from Chamonix around the mountain back to Chamonix. So, uh, still a super, super incredible like scenic. I mean, some of the landscapes I was seeing out there were like so incredible. You're running through alpine, like just sheer cliffs at some points and running through cow pastures. And these big, open, grassy meadows. And yeah, it was just, it was so cool. I'd never even been to that area before. It's like been incredible for me to like, travel the world and see all these like amazing places like because of running like it's,

• 25:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  It's a gift.

• 25:58Cameron Hanes?

  When you were, I mean, you mentioned your addiction and getting sober. When you were at those moments, that an experience like that running in Europe, in the most beautiful country in the world, from when you were at your lowest point, probably seemed like,

• 26:11Speaker 02

  I never could have imagined.

• 26:12Cameron Hanes?

  How, how amazing is life?

• 26:15Speaker 02

  It's incredible. Yeah.

• 26:16Cameron Hanes?

  It's like when you're at your lowest, just like you probably thought, I'm never getting out of here.

• 26:21Speaker 02

  There's no way out. Yeah.

• 26:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So tell me about that.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I come, to make a long story short, I come from a long line of alcoholics, drug addicts. It runs in my family. My mom's been sober for 30 plus years before I was even born. So I should probably know this, but maybe like 34, 35 years. My dad is like currently struggling alcoholic and addict. And yeah, my sister and my grandparents, like my uncle, everybody. And it's, it really is a family disease. And yeah, after high school, I just really had no direction in life. I was, I like to say I was going nowhere fast. And yeah, I had, I had gotten hit by a car when I was 14 years old and

• 27:11Speaker 02

  they sent me home with a prescription for OxyContin. And that was kind of like my first little taste of addiction. And it wasn't until later in high school where I really like started getting deep into it. And after high school, things got really dark. It got really bad. It felt like every single day was the worst day of my life. And yeah, I,

• 27:35Speaker 02

  I don't know. I feel like I really just like got lucky and the stars had aligned for me and I had an opportunity to like finally just get out of the situation that I was in and go to jail for a couple of months. And that was like, I remember thinking like, this might be my only chance to like finally quit because for the longest time I was like, dude, I can't keep doing this. Like, I want to quit. I want to stop. I'm done. I'm, this is, this is the last day. I'm, I'm really getting sober this time. I'm really going to do it. And it was just like, never could hang on for four, five hour, an hour, you know, it was just the worst situation mentally to have to

• 28:17Speaker 02

  fight every single day. And I finally did get sober and that was on April 6, 2012. And I've been sober ever since. And my life has just continually gotten better. Like, getting sober was like the foundation of, I don't know, my, my new life. And I wouldn't have anything if, I'd be dead if I wasn't sober.

• 28:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, especially now with the fentanyl, you know, what is

• 28:41Speaker 02

  I've lost so many friends, man. It's, it's such a bummer. So sad.

• 28:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that is, that is awful. Because you know, there's people who, everybody struggles with the different things, but they, they take this pill and they, they're not trying to kill themselves.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Well, they might think they're taking something totally different, you know?

• 29:01Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah, I mean, it's just tragic.

• 29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:05Cameron Hanes?

  Is what they're doing to that now and, you know, trying to make money. Everybody's, you know, they're out there hustling, doing their, selling their pills or whatever, but it's costing good people their lives. And it's just like, man, so lucky that you got out when you did.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:20Cameron Hanes?

  So it was, it was jail that got you sober?

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:23Cameron Hanes?

  And then?

• 29:24Speaker 02

  I went right into 12 step programs, got super involved, got really plugged in with a really amazing community and had like, for the first time ever in my life, like solid, like male role models and people who cared about me and like true genuine friends. And I just like held on for dear life. And it wasn't until I was sober for, maybe

• 29:47Speaker 02

  Four or five years where I even found like I didn't even run when I was younger. I didn't run in high school. I didn't run. I didn't go to college, so I wouldn't run in college. But uh, yeah, it wasn't until I was like twenty five, twenty six years old when I actually like found running and started running seriously. And I feel like that came at like such a such a perfect time in my life where I really, I was on the right track, but I didn't really have a lot of motivation to push myself or make goals or uh, progress. And it was like, when I found running, it was like this new hard thing that I could make goals like and set goals and achieve those goals and they were uh, attainable goals. And I felt like it was the first time where I really

• 30:28Speaker 02

  started to win in my life. And um, yeah, I was like total game changer for me. And I feel like once, I mean, this is gonna sound crazy, but once I started like succeeding and progressing in running, it like bled into all these other aspects of my life. And I really like it, everything kinda started to come together, you know?

• 30:51Cameron Hanes?

  Who got you started in running? Was it just you? You like, I wanna go on a run and?

• 30:56Speaker 02

  So it's kind of a funny story. I'll, I'll try to make it short because I've explained it uh, on a couple of different podcasts, but I, I was got back into skating. I'd quit skateboarding when I was doing my, doing my thing and in addiction, like yeah, struggling. And um, the, the company that I worked at, at had a skate park in one of the warehouses and I would skate in there every day and I kept getting injured. I broke one of my ankles and then couple, six months later, I broke my other ankle. So I was just out for quite a few months. I couldn't do anything. I was just sitting on the couch. I was on a knee scooter crutches. And um, I had a roommate at the time who was like super into go, I mean, he was a bodybuilder. So he was super into going to the gym and

• 31:36Speaker 02

  I came to him one day. I was like, dude, I just feel like shit, man. Like I, I need to like do something. And he was like, start coming to the gym with me. Like I'll, I'll show you what to do. Like I'll teach you how to lift and uh, yeah, I started, I just got a gym membership and started going to the gym and like. Uh, I remember one thing he said to me. He was like, just pay the thirty bucks a month. Like an investment in your body and your health is the greatest investment that you'll make in your life. And I just started going with him and I wasn't, I mean, I do enjoy lifting quite a bit now, but I wasn't trying to be like him, you know, like he's benching three fifteen. Yeah, yeah, super jacked. And I was like going and getting comfortable. And then I eventually

• 32:18Speaker 02

  just found myself like going to the cardio machine area and doing the stair climber or doing the elliptical machine. Like I couldn't even run on the treadmill at that point. And eventually I did start running on the treadmill and I was like, oh, I really like this. Like this makes me feel good.

• 32:30Cameron Hanes?

  Productive.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's hard. It's challenging. And I couple of months doing that, I'd be going to the gym and just going there to run on the treadmill for thirty, forty five minutes. And I'm like, why do I have this gym membership if I'm just gonna run on the treadmill? Like, I can just run outside. So started running outside and yeah, I remember it being like super hard, you know, running on a treadmill is like totally different than running on the road if you've never done it. And

• 32:56Cameron Hanes?

  You don't have to propel yourself.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 32:58Cameron Hanes?

  You just gotta go up.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I remember doing a three or four mile run. I was like, shit, man, I can barely do this, you know? And I was like, just wanted to push myself. I was, I was, every time I ran, I wanted to either run a little bit further or a little bit faster. And that was kind of the beginning of like this obsession that had developed with me and running. And I think part of that's just like having such an addictive mind. And I'd get obsessed over things really easily. And I do, I really like to take things to the extreme, you know? So I just, running was just like filled this void in my life and became like a new healthy obsession outlet for me to, for me to do. And it like seriously changed my life.

• 33:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  I like to say like, running changed my life and ultra running ruined my life, you know, because, yeah, it's at, you know, when you're, when you're doing, when you're training and doing a hundred, two hundred mile races, it's like all consuming. And I don't really skate or surf anymore as much as I would like to, but I'm just so focused and dedicated to like seeing how far I can go with this whole ultra running thing. Yeah.

• 34:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you still, you're loving it still.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  I'm in love with it. Yeah.

• 34:11Cameron Hanes?

  What's, so what was your first race?

• 34:14Speaker 02

  Uh, so I had a, I had run a couple, uh, road marathons. Uh, the first marathon I signed up for was in 2019, uh, just my local marathon back home, OC marathon.

• 34:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  And, uh, I ran that one and ran a couple more marathons after that. And then.

• 34:30Cameron Hanes?

  Were you doing good in them?

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 34:32Cameron Hanes?

  What was your goals?

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, like my first.

• 34:34Cameron Hanes?

  Finish?

• 34:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. My first one, I was like four hours. Like people say four hours is a good goal. And then I ran a three 27.

• 34:41Cameron Hanes?

  That's good.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And I, it was, it was like every single race that I ran, I kind of had these like conservative expectations and I will always like blow my expectations out of the water. And I ran like three or four marathons. And then I had a group of friends, uh, who were doing this race in Tahoe called Broken Arrow Sky Race. It was a 50K. And I was like, ooh, that'd be kind of cool to like, see if I can do it like an ultra.

• 35:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  You know, and, uh, signed up for that race. And man, that was a really hard race. It was like 11,000 feet of vert and a 50K.

• 35:09Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  Um, and yeah, I did, did really well there. And I was like, I really like trail running. And I just was like, I want, this is all I want to do. And like, I mean, I've ran a couple of road marathons since, but, uh, it's just been like 50K, 100K, 100 mile. You know, win a, win a 50 mile, win a hundred K, win a hundred mile, win a 200. So it's just.

• 35:29Cameron Hanes?

  That's nuts, dude.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Just the natural progression.

• 35:32Cameron Hanes?

  But you have a fast, I mean, like a two 30 some marathon, right?

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 35:36Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, that's, that's fast.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. But compared to who, you know, I mean.

• 35:41Cameron Hanes?

  Not Olympians, but.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 35:43Cameron Hanes?

  But to me it's fast.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm proud of my marathon. I think I still probably got one more.

• 35:52Cameron Hanes?

  In the twenties?

• 35:53Speaker 02

  One more fast marathon, maybe sub two 30. I don't, I don't know. Yeah. I think that, that would probably be like my ultimate road marathon goal. But, um, yeah, I'm just so obsessed with trail running, like, like 100 mile plus distance. Like that's, that's really what I'm, what I want to keep doing.

• 36:08Cameron Hanes?

  What was, so your first hundred, how did you do in that one?

• 36:12Speaker 02

  I got second place. So that was when I that was when I first met Jesse Haynes and uh this is actually kind of a cool story uh in oh my gosh, I don't want to mess up the year. I think it was 2023. Satisfy, one of my sponsors, they they uh sponsor this aid station at Fane Ranch at mile 100 and I was just volunteering there like helping out at the aid station. I was like, oh, this is crazy. I'm gonna go to this 250 mile race and see these people and uh I was there in the middle of the night when the first probably five or six people were coming through the aid station and uh I remember in my head thinking that these people were gonna be like I had built them up in my head like they were some kind of like superhuman superhero type people and uh

• 36:56Speaker 02

  when I was working at the aid station, I saw them coming through and they were all kinda in shambles and I was like, oh, these are just like regular people, you know, like it was the first time where I kinda could relate and I was like, oh, maybe maybe this like seemingly impossible thing is maybe something that I could do, you know, and uh I think that was in May and then the 100 miler was like in June and I right after Coconano, I just signed up for this 100 miler that was close to me and uh it's called Samo 100 mile put on by KH Races. And uh yeah, I showed up to that race with like pretty much a month. I mean, I had already been training pretty hard, but uh

• 37:34Speaker 02

  with just a month of hard training and I showed up and Jesse just smoked me. I mean, I think he beat me by like an hour and a half, but it was still uh like just a really cool experience and I I finished that race in second. I was like, holy shit, like my first 100 miler. I just crushed it, you know?

• 37:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's impressive. Yeah. And that's uh you said that was 11,000 or no, no, which how hard was that? That was a 50K.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  I think that one was maybe 20.

• 38:03Cameron Hanes?

  A lot of climbing then.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, a lot of climbing. It's in the Santa Monica Mountains. So, uh, yeah, I was maybe 21 or 27. I can't quite remember. I don't even think.

• 38:12Cameron Hanes?

  But legit.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not, I don't even think it's a race anymore. But, uh, yeah, it was, it was a really rad fun race. It's on the Backbone Trail in, uh, in Santa Monica. So, uh, yeah, it was a really, it was a tough first 100 miler. And I think that's like, I don't know, maybe, uh, I don't know if I do it intentionally, but picking like pretty hard races for these first, like my first 50K was hard. My first 100 miler was hard. My 240, obviously hard, right? So, um, yeah, it's, it was just cool. And like I said, I just kept showing up way bigger than I, I even expected and just having really good finishes.

• 38:50Cameron Hanes?

  That's amazing. I mean, you, you're definitely, uh, built for it. And that's what's crazy about it is, uh, your life could easily, easily went where you'd never realize this, this talent you have.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:04Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I mean, it's the, the fact that you found it and you've, whatever led it up to, to leading you to ultras was meant to be, but it could have easily not happened. And then there would be no Max running ultras.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:17Cameron Hanes?

  You know what I mean? And that's, and then the sport would have lost out. But that's, I think that people listening, I think it's important to, to know that you don't know what you're capable of. I mean, look at you. Could easily never have happened.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also I like, I kind of just stumbled on myself being kind of good at, you know, I, I didn't know I was good at running. My dad was a marathon runner. So maybe, maybe I kind of knew that I, I had a knack for this thing or could have been good at it. But it wasn't until I really started like pushing myself and finding some success in running where I was like, oh, I think I am actually good, like pretty good at this thing. And I, uh, I just, I made a decision like I'm, I'm actually gonna lean into this, you know, like this might be the one thing that I'm like really good at, you know, and uh, just took it from there and really, I mean, I'm still trying to figure out what's possible for me and see what I can do. Yeah.

• 40:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's a pretty amazing, I, I, that little story right there just remind me, I, uh, me and my, I used to hunt up here on a mountain bike and we'd bike in and it's super steep and all this. And I remember my friend was like, we were going up there and it would just crush people. People be puking all the time. For whatever reason, I could just bike and uh, remember my buddy, he was like off his bike, pushing it, puking and he was just like, what, he goes, could you, uh, could you be like in, in the Olympics? And I'm like, I don't know. I mean, you know, we were, I was older at this time, but like sometimes there's these little things that, that you're like,

• 40:50Speaker 02

  it just. Maybe this is my thing.

• 40:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe endurance.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:54Cameron Hanes?

  And at that time, he said that I was just like, God, maybe, and maybe I'm okay at this stuff. But yeah, you never know. There's these little moments in, in time that, you know, whatever path you're taking, you're there. And then you're just like, oh, wow. This is never, never expected this. But uh, yeah, that, okay. So side story there, but Cocaldon, were you pacing or crewing Jesse? That first year, did you say he was Cocaldon?

• 41:22Speaker 02

  No, no, Jesse, Jesse wasn't racing. Uh, yeah, I was just, I was just there at the, I wasn't crewing anyone. I was just

• 41:27Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, you were just helping.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Volunteering. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was just, I, I mean, I knew Michael Verstie, he actually came through first place, uh, at the, at that time, that year. Um, and I, I know him fairly well. So, uh, it was, it was cool seeing him, but I was just hanging out. I was just checking out the race.

• 41:41Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Handed out quesadillas. Yeah. Just chilling at the aid station, filling up people's water. And uh, yeah, it was just kind of by chance that I was like out there and saw this race and I was like, whoa, this is sick.

• 41:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And so now this year you're doing it.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  I'm doing, and you are too.

• 41:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you're gonna.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  This race is gonna be so insane. The lineup is like so, so sick.

• 42:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean Courtney, like one of, one of, one of many, but uh, yeah, I, I told you earlier, I think the only person who might be a bigger fan of Courtney than me is you.

• 42:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I love her. She's, she's.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  There's, there's an argument to be made that Courtney DeWalter is the greatest female athlete of any sport of all time.

• 42:26Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  Like she's just so incredible. I'm like such a huge fan. Haven't, haven't met her yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing her at Kokadon, yeah.

• 42:33Cameron Hanes?

  You're going to, it's gonna be epic. And uh, you know, Mike McKnight's doing it.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:37Cameron Hanes?

  Did, uh, he's been texting me about uh, heat training, cause he's gonna go down there early.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Jesse Haynes is doing it.

• 42:43Cameron Hanes?

  Is he?

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:44Cameron Hanes?

  Whoa, and he's good too, right?

• 42:46Speaker 02

  He's a legend. I mean, he won Moab in 2023.

• 42:48Cameron Hanes?

  That's right, that's right. Jeez.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  Among, I mean, we, we could, we could go down the list for, I mean, there's like probably 20 people that are just monsters in that, in that lineup.

• 42:58Cameron Hanes?

  I think that overall record is going down.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  For sure. I think the entire top 10 might break the course record.

• 43:07Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 43:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it could happen.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  I'm calling it, yeah.

• 43:11Cameron Hanes?

  It, it definitely could happen. I mean, I'm always just thinking of Courtney. It's like, uh, who knows what she's capable of. Um, so what's your, I mean, I don't know how close to the vest you hold stuff, but what's your training looking like going up to that? What's, are you gonna ramp it up?

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, kinda just same thing that I've been doing, just uh, big volume. Uh, I, I live at, I live at sea level, so I'm.

• 43:35Cameron Hanes?

  This is low here too.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're at a little bit of a disadvantage. So trying to, trying to just do more trips, get, going up to the mountains, uh, that are close, they're not big mountains, but at least it's something, you know? Um, doing some, some vert training, uh. After seeing Roche's YouTube video, like maybe, you know, I might do some more higher intensity stuff, like I'm just gonna try to be as fit as possible and just cover all my bases and really take care of my body. Like I've been seeing this PT back home and he's been, actually funny story. So Dr. G, the PT that I go to, Cheeto is always in there all the time. So I'm crushing shoulders with him. Yeah, I know he's been on the legend, on the show. Yeah, he's a legend. So yeah, just taking care of my body, doing everything

• 44:20Speaker 02

  that I can and applying those things that I learned from Moab that were maybe some issues that affected my race and just taking those lessons and doing things a little bit different.

• 44:31Cameron Hanes?

  Is, so along with the mileage, do you have vert goals a week?

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I kinda wanna hit, I think I, I think I hit like half a million feet of vert last year. So I thought it would be cool. I think the million foot of vert in a year is like a really sick benchmark. And I got this like stair climber machine in my garage. So I've been hitting stair, stair climber sessions a lot. But yeah, I think doing a million feet of vert in the year could be really, really sick. And I got other races, I think, than Coca Dona. I'm doing the Mammoth 200, which is another mountain race. So that's in September. Yeah, that's the one that's, that's the route that Sally put up near Mammoth Lakes, which is gonna be the first year of that 200 mile race.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  It's part of Mammoth Trail Fest. So I got that one. We'll see if it runs. We just had a bunch of fires in LA. So I'm not sure if AC 100 is happening this year. I mean, I'm hoping so. But yeah, that's a pretty mountainous race. So yeah, there's, there'll be a lot of vert in my future.

• 45:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, definitely. It's, I know, like, there's a guy here, Ben Blankenship, you know who that is? He on Spencer's over there. I know he was when he was getting ready, cause he's just getting into ultras now, but he was always like, or his goal was 10,000 feet a day, which is nuts.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 45:55Cameron Hanes?

  That's a lot of, that's a lot of.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Every day for how long?

• 45:58Cameron Hanes?

  Uh, I can't remember how many days he was doing that. I mean, I know, I can't speak to it. But 10,000 feet a day for even just a few days.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  That's a lot.

• 46:09Cameron Hanes?

  But he was doing it longer than that. But yeah, so I'm always like interested in hearing, there's this, there's this girl who just did the.

• 46:18Cameron Hanes?

  The spike cap thing and this is gonna sound nuts. I think part of it was skiing too. So just take that with, with, uh, just consider that, but, um, she did over 2 million feet of gain in a year.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Damn. I mean, there's people out there that that's all they do. Yeah, it's insane.

• 46:35Cameron Hanes?

  But she, and she was crushing Piska. There's no, I mean, no surprise.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:40Cameron Hanes?

  Up and down, up and down, up and down. But I don't know. Cause Taylor, his goal was always, my brother was always 500,000 feet. And I always thought that that is insane. 500,000 feet? I thought that was nuts. A million feet is nuts, but anytime you have these like benchmarks, you know, there's somebody who's.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  Right. And the, I'm, I mean, I'm sure there's a record for most vertical feet of gain.

• 47:04Cameron Hanes?

  Probably Killian does like 3 million.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Who knows? Like, and the record's probably getting broken every single year. So yeah, who knows what even the limit of that. And that's a whole nother, like, it's not technically ultra racing, but it's still like ultra adjacent, you know, like putting up crazy mileage throughout a year or crazy vert throughout a year. So yeah, that, that's kind of a whole nother cool aspect of the ultra running world is just seeing what people can do in a month or a year, you know?

• 47:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Cause if you, and that's what's exciting about it. Cause when I think about like miles, I know Goggins, Goggins did 7,000 miles in a year, which are over 7,000, which is like 20 miles a day for the whole year, which is, but if you look at all those different things, so it's like, that's the magic though, is finding the combination that works for you for whatever endeavor you're doing and, uh, kind of, I guess, um, highlights your strengths.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:01Cameron Hanes?

  So for some people, maybe it's a vert, maybe it's a mileage, maybe it's whatever. But if you look at, or maybe like Roach, it's a speed, but you look at all those and you take all these little things from all these athletes, the Killian, the Goggins, the Roach, the, the Courtney, and then it's like, okay, so what works for you?

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:18Cameron Hanes?

  What gets you to your highest level? That's what nobody can say.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:21Cameron Hanes?

  You can say like, well, this, this works for this guy and here's what he did. And that might not do anything for you.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Gotta find out for yourself.

• 48:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  And you just gotta do it.

• 48:29Cameron Hanes?

  Right. And that's what, I mean, we have all these people doing these incredible things. It doesn't mean anything for me. I love talking, like hearing what you're doing because I can consider it.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:39Cameron Hanes?

  But I think that for these long ones.

• 48:44Cameron Hanes?

  How do you measure mental toughness? I have no idea.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  There's, there's, there's no way to quantify it.

• 48:49Cameron Hanes?

  And then it's volume.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:51Cameron Hanes?

  And that's all, that's all I think about.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:53Cameron Hanes?

  I guess in heat, maybe, I don't know.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, which I'm going into Cogadona, I'm like really, I feel like being able to handle the heat is like kind of my greatest strength. Moab was really, really hot this year. I know there were people like Andy, like Andy Glaze got heat stroke really, really bad.

• 49:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  Either the first or second day. Yeah. So it was, it was really, it was a tough year and a lot, I mean, I live in Southern California. So it's, I mean, we live in a desert, so it's pretty hot. And yeah, it's all summer long, I'm training in the heat. So, and I always kind of do really well at hot races. So I think, I think that might be kind of my secret weapon. Yeah, I don't, I don't have super salty sweat and I don't sweat a whole lot. So I think I retain water pretty well, which might be really beneficial for.

• 49:41Cameron Hanes?

  Salt probably.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, for hot races. So yeah, I really love hot, flat, fast ultras. Like that's, that's, I like, I like anything that's really, really hard, but I think my greatest strength is probably in like hot desert conditions.

• 49:57Cameron Hanes?

  That's where maybe then this race is like tailor made for you because it is, there's a lot of running.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 50:04Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, there's road.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  So was Moab. Yeah, it's very runnable.

• 50:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So if you can make up time on the flat, man, and you're good in the heat.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:13Cameron Hanes?

  Once, because I think in the first part of Cogadona is, you know, that first 50K, they say that's what, you know, that require you to take four liters of water type thing is the hardest part to, at the beginning anyway. If you can survive that and then get to that wherever you can run.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. I'm super excited. Yeah. I'm pumped to see what you do.

• 50:36Cameron Hanes?

  God, I'm old, I'm old. Um, so with your nutrition, like you were laying all that out, it seems like the, the focus nowadays or lately has been on the high carb, high calorie. What do you look at for that for you?

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I uh, I'm kinda just trying to do what other people do and uh, I was trying to get as much fuel as I could. So I had, I think I had something around, I had planned for 80 grams of carbohydrates per hour, which is kind of a lot, especially for a multi-day race like that. And I think I, I think I consumed almost all of my nutrition that I had planned for, plus extra just solid food. But um, yeah, I was eating a lot of gels, a lot of high carb mix in, in my uh, in my fluids, uh, tons of electrolytes. Like I was really meticulous about planning my uh, my nutrition. Yeah.

• 51:30Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm. How much salt were you taking? Do you remember?

• 51:33Speaker 02

  Uh, so I did-

• 51:34Cameron Hanes?

  Just in your drink?

• 51:35Speaker 02

  I did, I did a sweat test and I, I'm like 900 milligrams uh, sodium loss per liter.

• 51:43Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Um, so I was trying to hit just right at that number. Yeah. And it worked out well. Yeah.

• 51:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Um, what I remember from, and you talked about lessons you learned, but from Moab is like, taking those bandages off your blisters?

• 51:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:58Cameron Hanes?

  That seemed like a rough one.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  Big mistake. Yeah.

• 52:01Cameron Hanes?

  So you, now you leave your feet bandaged up?

• 52:04Speaker 02

  I'm gonna do something totally different for my feet for the next one. Yeah. I pre-taped, which what I don't think I should have done and probably should have stuck with toe socks the entire time. And I'm actually curious what you think about this. So friction of your socks on your skin is what causes blisters, right? Would it be better to always lubricate the sock between the sock and the skin? Or do you want the sock to stick to the skin so it doesn't move?

• 52:33Cameron Hanes?

  What I've been doing is I just, I coat my toes in Vaseline and then put the sock on.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  But that only lasts for so long, right?

• 52:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but like- The last races I've done, hundreds, even like this hundred that me and Courtney just did, I've had one blister.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  I've just, I've done that and I've still gotten blisters and maybe that's because it was, it was a hot race. So I was drenching myself in water the entire race. So I was pooling in my, in my shoes, my socks. And maybe it just got washed, rinsed away. But yeah, I'm like, still learning. I'm always just trying to learn like what works best. And I, I got a couple, I got a race next weekend. I'm running Black Canyon 60K. So I'll be testing it. I mean, it's, it's pretty short. Yeah. You can't simulate what you're going to experience in a hundred or 200 miles unless you do it. So it's like, I kind of just gotta pick something and test it out and hopefully it works. I don't know.

• 53:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And I think feet are, are again, we talk about so unique because I've tried the toe socks before. It, it made my shoes too tight. Maybe, maybe it was, you know, that extra fabric in there, but maybe I needed to go up a size or whatever. But you know, Courtney, she uses, and I don't see her feet ever being torn up.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:46Cameron Hanes?

  I think part of it, and I have like my, my pinky toes kind of.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, mine too. Mine are so bad. Yeah. They, my pinky toes were, I thought I was gonna lose my right pinky toe during, I was like legit, this hurts so bad. I think my toe might actually fall off.

• 54:03Cameron Hanes?

  Let's just cut it off now.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Which probably would have been better. But yeah, I, yeah, my feet are kind of the thing that I struggle most with in races. And I've had some success. Every once in a while I'll have, I'll run a hundred K and I'll be like, oh, my blisters aren't even really that bad. I didn't lose too many toenails. And then I'll run a road marathon and lose five of my toenails. I'm like, what, what's the deal here? You know?

• 54:25Cameron Hanes?

  Do you have a shoe sponsor?

• 54:28Speaker 02

  So I'm sponsored by Satisfy Running. They make apparel and they're releasing their first shoe, I think in July. So I do have a shoe sponsor. The shoe is just not out yet.

• 54:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  But I've been, I've been wear testing some, some prototypes and it's, it's a

• 54:44Cameron Hanes?

  They're good?

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:45Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, cuz, cuz shoes are, dude, it's not easy to make a good shoe.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 54:50Cameron Hanes?

  You know, you, like, I remember Under Armour came out with the first shoe and I wanted to wear them so bad, they were like wearing a two by four in their foot. They were awful. The worst shoe ever, like plastic.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  And then you're forced to wear them.

• 55:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, then I'm like sponsored by them, but they can't, you know, they, now they make great shoes, but I'm just saying that making shoes, shit is tough.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:09Cameron Hanes?

  For performance.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 55:10Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I mean, you can get shoes that look cool, but, uh, performance is

• 55:13Speaker 02

  I think, I think breaking into the shoe space is really hard, but

• 55:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Almost, I've, I've been trying out a bunch of different shoes, just road shoes, trail shoes, uh, over the last year and, um, it's kinda hard to find a bad shoe nowadays, at least if it's coming from a Nike, Hoka, Adidas, whoever.

• 55:31Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  New Balance, like, everyone kinda seems to make

• 55:34Cameron Hanes?

  Don't forget Speedland.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  And Speedland, yeah.

• 55:36Cameron Hanes?

  Do you want some more coffee?

• 55:37Speaker 02

  Uh, sure, yeah. Um, yeah, I feel like nowadays it's almost hard to find a bad shoe.

• 55:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  A lot of brands make a lot of really good shoes out there.

• 55:44Cameron Hanes?

  Where I, where I struggle is, not struggle, but I'm always obsessed with weight.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 55:51Cameron Hanes?

  So I'm always looking to like cut things off. Speedland, they've got it trimmed down good, but I'm always like, God, if I could run in a road shoe.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:01Cameron Hanes?

  That's this many ounces lighter.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  Right, take a road shoe and like maybe resole it with a Vibram outsole, yeah, yeah.

• 56:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, cuz they

• 56:08Speaker 02

  I've thought about that.

• 56:09Cameron Hanes?

  I tested out this, this road shoe, wherever it is, and they're, and it just doesn't have any, uh, grip on the bottom.

• 56:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, I, I noticed a lot of Adidas shoes, the road shoes, they're just like that flat, I think it's Continental rubber, maybe, I think it's called Continental, I'm probably, probably miss, misspeaking, but, uh, yeah, it's just, there's no, there's no treads or traction, it's just flat grip.

• 56:31Cameron Hanes?

  So if you can have that shoe with a little bit of traction.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:33Cameron Hanes?

  But, uh, yeah, Speedline, I think they, they, uh, You know, one thing you talked about um your feet and sweating and pouring water. So do you put holes through the bottom of your shoe?

• 56:46Speaker 02

  No, I I I heard one time that you do that.

• 56:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  But I don't, I don't really, I don't really sweat too much. So that's.

• 56:51Cameron Hanes?

  I know. I saw a treadmill video of you.

• 56:54Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:54Cameron Hanes?

  Remember that with the socks?

• 56:56Speaker 02

  The, yeah. And so the, the stair climber, yeah, I sweat more on that thing than any, but there's no.

• 57:01Cameron Hanes?

  Stationary bike too. What if you do that, you're like.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  Also, that was in the middle of the summer. My garage was probably 90 degrees. There's no fan. There's no ventilation. So it's just like giant sweatbox. But yeah, I uh, I sweat a ton on that thing. But usually when I'm running outside or in races, like I don't really, unless I'm dumping a ton of water on myself, I, I don't really ever get fluid pooling up in my, in my shoes. I'm not, not a super heavy sweater.

• 57:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, that's a, that, I mean, that's why you're probably good at the heat. Um, but yeah, you see like a lot of those races or some of the races, they'll put you through a river right at the beginning.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:38Cameron Hanes?

  And you know, it's softening up that skin and you're just like, oh, God, this is brutal.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  That, quite literally, that happened this year at Sean O'Brien, this 100K that I ran. At mile, mile two, you have to do this river crossing and then it was a hot race. My feet were wet for 10 hours and I, dude, I had these blisters that started on my toe, went underneath my toenail, wrapped around, like it was so brutal. Yeah, yeah.

• 58:03Cameron Hanes?

  Tough.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was nasty.

• 58:04Cameron Hanes?

  So what I, what I do to try it, and I'm not good, but if I run from here to the Pisgah, then I'll just go, there's, if it's in the summers, go in the river.

• 58:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:15Cameron Hanes?

  Just get my feet all wet and then run.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  So train with wet feet, toughen up your feet.

• 58:20Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. And I don't wear socks.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  Makes sense to me. Yeah, that's crazy. You don't wear socks. I forgot that.

• 58:25Cameron Hanes?

  Just for training.

• 58:26Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 58:27Cameron Hanes?

  Not for racing. Yeah, no, but it's just, in my head, I'm like making my feet tougher.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  That makes sense to me.

• 58:33Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know if it works.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:35Cameron Hanes?

  But it's like we have all these little weird.

• 58:37Speaker 02

  Right. I, I live really close to the beach, so every once in a while I'll just do barefoot runs on the sand. And I feel like that's like important to, I mean, toughen up the skin on your toes and your feet, but also just the uneven terrain. I feel like it makes your feet stronger and uh, I've never really dealt with uh, like any foot injuries or plant, yeah. And I think maybe that, that has something to do with it, but uh. Yeah, I like to cycle a bunch of different shoes. I don't really, yeah, I kind of have that same, even though I don't run without socks, but I like to toughen up my feet in different ways by just like mixing it up a lot with shoes or terrain or whatever. Yeah.

• 59:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, whatever you're doing, keep doing it. You're kicking ass. So tell me about like,

• 59:26Cameron Hanes?

  I think, you know, there's some stars in the sport that we know of. The guys who I pay attention to, we mentioned Roach a few times now, but Hayden Hawkes, I like him. Of course, Walmsley is legend.

• 59:41Speaker 02

  Legend.

• 59:42Cameron Hanes?

  Mike McKnight, he's won all the 200s in one year. Yeah, killing. Like who, who's been like your inspiration in running?

• 59:49Speaker 02

  Oh, man, dude, it's like, to be honest with you, it's people like you. Like you, Goggins, yeah, like Jim, all those guys that you just named. Yeah, Michael Verstey, it's just like people that I've met along the way, people that inspired Jesse Haynes, like, man, that dude, I look up to that dude so much. And he's like Tommy, Tommy, so Dylan Bowman, like, these guys, like, I don't know, it's just people that I've met along the way kind of inspire me the most. Yeah, for sure.

• 1:00:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's, well, now, now you're, I mean, you have like, everything, you got the look, you got the story, you got the performance. How exciting is that? And it's like, do you see yourself as, I mean, where do you see yourself going?

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  I don't know. To be honest with you, it feels weird. Like going back to the imposter syndrome, I'm just waiting for all these people to find out I'm like, not a good athlete, you know. But yeah, it's been, it's been a kind of a tricky thing to navigate. I mean, I'm sure you deal with it, you know, seeing people all the time that know you and you don't really know who they are. And I never wanted to, I never planned on like blowing up in the running space. I just wanted to do some hard races and push myself. Yeah. And everything, everything else is just social media is, I mean,

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  The success there has just kind of been a bonus and yeah, I just, I just want to keep doing hard things, telling my story, documenting races and hopefully if I inspire people along the way, that's like, that's really cool.

• 1:01:21Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I think you are. I mean, you, you inspire me. I mean, your film with Tyler, and I always say Tyler with a O R, which I said, did you know you, you spell your name wrong? Tyler, come on. But that film, so what's, what's a film? Like, do you have more films in the works or plans? What do you think?

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I've, I like, I think it's fun, you know, making these films, documenting these races and I, I plan on just bringing, bringing filmers along with me. I don't know if it will be a big production like, like King of Moab. That's, you know, it, it took a lot of planning and just a lot of time to make that. I mean, it's still not done yet. We're still working on it, trying to get it out as soon as possible. But yeah, just leaning more into like putting out YouTube videos, just making more content, just, yeah.

• 1:02:12Cameron Hanes?

  People can't get enough.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Can't get enough. And I like, I wish that more people would just put forth a little bit of effort to put content out, out there. Like, there's so many pro athletes that I wish I could see what their training looks like, what their story is. And it's like, just buy a camera, have your girlfriend or your wife start filming, hire an editor to just put some, put a YouTube video together and put it out there. Like, I selfishly want to see that. So, um, yeah, I'm just gonna, and people keep asking me to do that more. And this next year, I'm going to try to put out a lot more content on my YouTube and just, yeah, try to do better with that.

• 1:02:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a, that is a good goal. I mean, you know, Courtney talked about, we filmed like for three days and I said, you, you ready to do a podcast? And she's like, podcast? Don't, don't you think we've, you know, aren't people gonna get, I'm like, get sick of me or whatever? And I'm like, people can't get enough of you. What are you talking about?

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:03:07Cameron Hanes?

  She doesn't put anything out, really.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  She's so mysterious and maybe that adds to her, her, her lore, you know?

• 1:03:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I think so. But all I know is, yeah. People you can't nowadays, people can't get enough.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Cameron Hanes?

  If they care about somebody or they're interested in somebody's story, you can't give them enough.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:24Cameron Hanes?

  They wanna, they wanna peek in the window and then if you let them, they'll wanna come in the house and hang out.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  And it's, it's tough and it's a sacrifice and uh trying to make a documentary while you're trying to train for the biggest race of your life and running the biggest race of your life. It's just like a whole nother uh and trying to juggle a full-time job and like put out like it is a lot, but um I think in the end, if you can do it, it's worth it and people will really respond well if you just put stuff out there. I mean, it could be anything, just Instagram videos, TikToks, uh Youtubes, just make, just get content out like every we just want, we want the content. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:03Cameron Hanes?

  Well, and then, so how does that? Your, your sponsorship relationships, how, how are you navigating that? Because with content, that's eyeballs. With eyeballs, that's money for your sponsor. That's what everybody wants.

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:04:21Cameron Hanes?

  So how are you dealing with? So now you're, you're like this rising star coming up, kicking ass. How are you dealing with sponsors and things like that?

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  Um, I've, I've gotten lucky to, to be uh to find some brands that have been really, really great to work with and um but yeah, it's been tricky, you know, I'm like, I don't have an agent. I don't know, I don't know what my value is. It's hard to even quantify like what I'm worth. Um, and uh, yeah, the sponsors, they really do help uh enable you to, to travel and do these races. And it's like, it's tough cause like you need, you need the resources to go do all these amazing things.

• 1:05:00Cameron Hanes?

  It's expensive.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is expensive.

• 1:05:02Cameron Hanes?

  The races are expensive.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  I mean, Moa, I think the registration for Moa this year broke $2,000 just, just to run it. Um, so yeah, and like bringing a crew out and. Getting hotels and getting everyone fed and gas and it all does add up. So, yeah, but at the same time, like you really don't need any sponsors to

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  go run a race and make a film. Like you just need to bring someone with a camera and just be willing to willing to document it, you know? So yeah, it's uh, it's been tricky. It's been challenging. Yeah. And I'm, and I'm learning some, some hard lessons along the way. Yeah.

• 1:05:39Cameron Hanes?

  But you, you know, you don't need it, but if you're, if you're sacrificing, if you're, if you're, you know, going through the pain and you know, you deserve to be compensated. That's how I look at it. It's just like you're getting eyeballs on these brands and the brands are doing good. They're, they're, they're allowing you to do these.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:59Cameron Hanes?

  This or share these experiences, but.

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  And the obligations to each brand is different, right? So satisfy, I mean, they've been super amazing that, you know, we, we do cool, fun stuff, but they don't really ask too much of the athletes. They kind of just believe in us and want us to wear the product and race and, you know, we, we do, we do what we do. And that's been really, really awesome and incredible sponsorship. And I just recently signed with Camelback and they've, they've been really cool too. They actually are, their headquarters is like right, right two cities over from my hometown. So, uh, and I got friends who like work there. Yeah. It's, uh, old coworkers who work there. So it's a, it's been cool. They've been awesome. Uh, so I'll be with them, uh, for, for quite a while, but yeah, it's a,

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  some brands ask, uh, very little of you and other brands like really, uh, will use you to their full potential. Yeah.

• 1:06:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's a good way to say it.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Milk you for all your work.

• 1:06:58Cameron Hanes?

  There you go. Yeah. There he goes. Squeeze everything they can out of you. Yeah. Did you quit your job?

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:07:05Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, you still got a job?

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. No, I, I wish I could, but, uh, um, you know, I, I feel like I'm like you, you know, I I'm working this job and I do, I do enjoy my job. I love the people that I work with. Um, I make okay money. It's really close to home. I'm still able to get all my training in, so it, there's no reason really for me to let, well, other than my time that I'm spending there, but it's a, it's a good gig. Um, maybe, maybe at some point I'll be a full-time runner, but as of right now, I'm still, still going to work, working, doing the nine to five.

• 1:07:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, well, it's, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that and that's, you know, you gotta pay the bills.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:46Cameron Hanes?

  It is tough. Um, I just know, you know, Truitt's a little bit younger than you, but you know, he transitioned to full-time, whatever he does.

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  He's killing it, man. He is killing it.

• 1:07:56Cameron Hanes?

  Whatever, whatever he does. But yeah, it's so, it's a, he's doing a good job. But yeah, it is, it's a hard decision to make right there because, you know, he went to college here, got his degree, does, doing a good job, working for Mountain Ops and, you know, doing what, what he's good at. And then like, well, maybe if I went on my own, maybe it could be, may I have more time?

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  And the other thing too, that gets complicated is when you have sponsors, you can't, if you're trying to do social media full-time and you have sponsors, it kind of limits you to jobs that you might be able to, and brands that you can promote, you know? So, uh, yeah, sometimes if you're trying to go that route, having a bunch of sponsors is actually a disadvantage, you know?

• 1:08:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a, yeah, it's, it's a, it's crazy that there is opportunities to make good money.

• 1:08:46Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:08:47Cameron Hanes?

  Just on social media.

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  Right. It's incredible.

• 1:08:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And just, so if you could make good money, training more, getting more rest, because you're not, that's what.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  You're kind of talking me into it right now.

• 1:08:57Cameron Hanes?

  I know. That's, well, I just know what, I've just seen what Truitt has done.

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:01Cameron Hanes?

  Because if you look at what he, you know, he's getting to get probably 10. I would say at least 10,000 pull ups in 24 hours tomorrow.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  So badass, so badass.

• 1:09:11Cameron Hanes?

  But he's like, he goes, I just train all day and then sleep like nine hours a day. He goes, what else, what else would I be doing?

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  Living the life.

• 1:09:20Cameron Hanes?

  This is my job.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:21Cameron Hanes?

  So when you have that talent.

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:24Cameron Hanes?

  You have, you're obsessed because without obsession, you're not going to do the work.

• 1:09:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:28Cameron Hanes?

  People always talk about, well, oh, if all I had to do was train all day, I could do that too. It's like, well, probably not.

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  The must be nicer.

• 1:09:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you'd probably just watch TV more.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:37Cameron Hanes?

  If you didn't have a job. So there's, it takes like the certain magic where it all comes together. And if it's somebody like you or like Truitt, who knows what the hell can, what the potential is. You know, you know, uh, to set a world record, um, that's something nobody's ever done.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:55Cameron Hanes?

  I, I think you could, if you had all that time and just knowing your mentality.

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  I mean, I have, I have some things in the back of my head that I would love to attempt, but are just impossible to do while working a job. Like things that might take 40, 50 months to, uh, to complete. And it's like, how do you, how do you hold on to your job when you're gone for two months, you know?

• 1:10:19Cameron Hanes?

  Right, right.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just not possible. There are things that I want to do that if I, if I do attempt them, I'm just going to need to not have a job. And I've, I've toyed with the idea of just walking in, putting in my two weeks and then hitting the road and doing something, something crazy. But, uh.

• 1:10:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just, I don't know. It's tough.

• 1:10:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I understand.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  That jumping off point, the, the cliff is just so steep, you know?

• 1:10:45Cameron Hanes?

  I understand.

• 1:10:45Speaker 02

  Scary, yeah.

• 1:10:46Cameron Hanes?

  I understand. I believe in you.

• 1:10:48Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:10:51Cameron Hanes?

  Peanut gallery. I, I tasked these guys, I can't remember, I think I said it before the podcast, but I said, watch King of Moab.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:10:59Cameron Hanes?

  And then I want some questions from the dip over here.

• 1:11:05Speaker 03

  Okay. You watched the Courtney episode, so we got a, a similar opening question for you.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:11:11Speaker 03

  But we can cuss this time.

• 1:11:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:13Speaker 03

  Mary kill.

• 1:11:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:11:15Speaker 03

  Running, skateboarding, surfing.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  Oh my God, dude.

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:11:21Cameron Hanes?

  Not bad, not bad guys.

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  Damn. I, I'd say I'm going to have to kill skateboarding.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  And that hurts.

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  Surfing, merry running.

• 1:11:37Cameron Hanes?

  So you still like surfing for like the weekends?

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like skating, once, once you, once you hit thirty years old, you're just, it's over. You're gonna get hurt. Yeah, it's like that, that time in your, in your life is done. But surfing is one of those things where you can surf for, I mean dudes into their seventies and eighties. If you take care of your body, like surfing is one of those things. And it's like, it's a lot like running. It's a, it's a spiritual practice for a lot of people. And people get a lot from, I mean, I'm sure you could say that for skateboarding, but I love surfing, man. It was like my first thing that I was obsessed with. And now running is just like, kinda gotta stick it out with that one. So probably throw the ring on.

• 1:12:17Cameron Hanes?

  So merry running.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, throw the ring on running.

• 1:12:20Cameron Hanes?

  There's a weekend fling with surfing.

• 1:12:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:22Cameron Hanes?

  That sounds pretty good.

• 1:12:24Speaker 03

  Okay. One of the things that really bummed us out the most in the film is you cut the hair. So are you bringing it back?

• 1:12:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I don't know. It's growing. Yeah.

• 1:12:35Cameron Hanes?

  That bummed you guys out?

• 1:12:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're like, damn, he cut it.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't even know what I'm doing with my hair. It's just doing its thing. Yeah. If you want me to grow it out, I will.

• 1:12:46Speaker 03

  I'd appreciate that.

• 1:12:50Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:12:52Speaker 03

  So towards the end of the race, you had mentioned in the film, when you came across Harry, you know, you checked in on him. Are you guys okay? Do you need anything? So how do you kind of balance that empathy for your competitors with your drive to win?

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  Good question.

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just, I just have the utmost respect for anyone who's lining up at a two hundred mile race. And Harry is like, I, he's one of the greatest two hundred mile runners out there. And it was just an honor, like sharing a bunch of miles with him and going back and forth. Like he dropped me in the beginning and then I caught him and then I led for. About a hundred miles and then he got me again and then he just put the hammer on me and I was down, down bad and then I came back and when I got to him, uh, I had, I had kinda knew that, uh, it would, you know, he was moving really slow and I was making, I was closing this gap that he had on me and, uh,

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  it was a couple miles out from when I actually met him where the, it kinda set in that like, holy shit, I'm, I'm gonna win this race and, um, I just wanted to be as respectful as possible to him. I mean, he's such a legend. I, I look up to that guy a bunch. So, uh, yeah, I just wanted to make sure and stop and, uh, know that they were okay before I just like hammered on and just, you know, um, it was more of a respecting than anything. Yeah.

• 1:14:13Cameron Hanes?

  How old is he?

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  I think he's the same age as me. He's like thirty, thirty-two, thirty-three. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:18Cameron Hanes?

  I thought Harry, that sounds like an old name.

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:21Cameron Hanes?

  I thought he was like sixty.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  Haroldus.

• 1:14:23Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:14:24Speaker 02

  He's, he's Lithuanian. Yeah, he's Lithuanian. Yeah. Which is kinda funny cause I'm Lithuanian as well. Yeah, yeah, a little, little bit. I think, I think my ancestry test said like ten percent or something.

• 1:14:35Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. I mean, he has had a lot of success and I, I did like how you called that out and, um, you know, yeah, I don't know. It's a, you gotta respect, I, again, I related to hunting. When I'm way back deep in the mountains, I don't wanna see anybody, but if I see, if I see somebody, I'm like,

• 1:14:57Speaker 02

  You worked hard to get here. Yeah.

• 1:14:58Cameron Hanes?

  Worked hard. Yeah. It's like, how do you, how do you hate on that?

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Another thing that I wanted to ask you about, about hunting, as a hunter, you see someone with me, like me with a, with a real tree cap on, is this stolen valor?

• 1:15:10Cameron Hanes?

  No. No, that's cool. Yeah, it's cool. I like it. No, but hunters are, uh, we want people to be flying the flag, basically.

• 1:15:19Speaker 02

  Okay, cool.

• 1:15:19Cameron Hanes?

  Ripping the camel brand.

• 1:15:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, man, that's something that I would love to get into. Like I just, I think it's so cool. Like the most respect to you guys for going out there and, Getting your own food and feeding your family and just the respect that you have with nature and the difficulty of getting, you know, getting an animal. It's like, it's really cool. Yeah.

• 1:15:41Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  And I wish I had more time and energy and I got a couple of friends back home who are, who are getting into it. Bow hunting too. So yeah, it's a

• 1:15:50Cameron Hanes?

  Well, we'll have to do a lift, run, shoot, proper lift, run, shoot.

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  I would love to.

• 1:15:54Cameron Hanes?

  This one was kinda, you know, I had speed line yesterday, then you today, then flying to Tru tomorrow. So I was a little bit tight, but I want to do a lifter and shoot with you.

• 1:16:02Speaker 02

  Sweet.

• 1:16:02Cameron Hanes?

  I was already thinking about having you done at the bow rack.

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  Let's do it after Coca Dona.

• 1:16:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:16:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that'd be fun. We'll do lift, run, shoot, or recap on Coca Dona and get you shooting a bow would be.

• 1:16:13Speaker 02

  That would be amazing. And I actually, so when I was a kid, my, uh, my mom was just like obsessed with, uh, she just really loved Boy Scouts and I think part of it was she, maybe her childhood, she didn't really get to experience the outdoors as much as maybe she would have liked. So when I was a kid, she was just like, so like she was the, the Cub Scout leader. She was like the scout leader and we, I mean, part of my, my background growing up, like being on trails a lot and traveling, going to all these national parks and road tripping every single weekend. And, uh, I feel like a lot of that kind of was planted the seeds for like my love for the outdoors and for nature and being on trails

• 1:16:54Speaker 02

  and which will really is ultra running and adventure. So, uh, I don't know where I was going with that.

• 1:17:00Cameron Hanes?

  Your mom was a Cub Scout master.

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the love for the outdoors.

• 1:17:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for hunting. Yeah. How it ties back to nature and hunting.

• 1:17:09Speaker 02

  Right. So I, yeah, I just, it's, it's been, you know, a part of me for a long time and I, hunting is, uh, it's very intriguing to me, you know? And even like, even like I live by the ocean, so it's super accessible. Um, but even like spearfishing, like I think that spearfishing is like bow hunting in the water, right?

• 1:17:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So I've never done it. That's what they say.

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I got a bunch of friends who do that too. So I, yeah, I'm very intrigued. It's just my time is limited with. Training and

• 1:17:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I understand.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  Working and making films and

• 1:17:39Cameron Hanes?

  Quit that job.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:41Cameron Hanes?

  Cheeto's got a bow. Cheeto came up and did the look for a shoe.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. He's the man. We always, we always see him running around town. We're always like, Cheeto.

• 1:17:48Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I

• 1:17:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, honking at him.

• 1:17:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, he's also got that, that

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  He wants to start running ultras.

• 1:17:54Cameron Hanes?

  Does he?

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've heard him say on, uh,

• 1:17:56Cameron Hanes?

  He did a marathon.

• 1:17:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, he did New York City Marathon. Yeah. And I, I've heard, I've heard him say he wants to, he wants to get into ultras when he's done with fighting. So Cheeto.

• 1:18:05Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 1:18:06Speaker 02

  Let's get some miles on the trail, bro.

• 1:18:08Cameron Hanes?

  What camera are we on?

• 1:18:09Speaker 03

  Camera seventeen.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:10Cameron Hanes?

  Seventeen.

• 1:18:11Speaker 02

  Let's hit the trails, Cheeto, come on.

• 1:18:13Cameron Hanes?

  We did, uh, me, him and Ben ran. How far did we run that day?

• 1:18:17Speaker 03

  Thirteen.

• 1:18:18Cameron Hanes?

  Thirteen? Yeah. So he, he ran with an Olympian.

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, he's a good runner.

• 1:18:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, he is. Yeah. We had a great day. I just, he is hilarious.

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's, he's the man.

• 1:18:28Cameron Hanes?

  He is hilarious.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  He's a legend.

• 1:18:30Cameron Hanes?

  Comes up with the funniest stuff. And he's, I like the, he's got like, does he have gold on his teeth?

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  He's so sick.

• 1:18:36Cameron Hanes?

  I got, I want gold on my teeth.

• 1:18:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, you should.

• 1:18:38Cameron Hanes?

  I got, or like at le- least a, did your girlfriend have a diamond or something?

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, she, she was somewhere and got some stupid tooth jewelry thing.

• 1:18:46Cameron Hanes?

  I'm doing it.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  She can't take it off now, though.

• 1:18:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  She went to the dentist and she was like, hey, can you take this thing off? And they couldn't get it off. So it's just stuck on there for however long. Yeah.

• 1:18:55Cameron Hanes?

  I'm, I'm on my front tooth, though.

• 1:18:59Cameron Hanes?

  Well, not a full grill. I mean, come on, don't be stupid, James.

• 1:19:04Speaker 03

  Okay, so Cam and Courtney had kind of talked about, um, you know, if you're leading and someone's chasing you down, you're running until you disappear. And then, you know, maybe you can walk then, but you're never

• 1:19:15Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, you get around the corner so they can't see you walking.

• 1:19:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:18Cameron Hanes?

  You know, the mind.

• 1:19:19Speaker 02

  Or, or the, the move is if you're ahead and it's nighttime and you got your headlamp on, you cover the headlamp when you look back.

• 1:19:25Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  Trying to, so trying to see where they're at, so they don't

• 1:19:28Cameron Hanes?

  Somebody looks back, you know they're fucked.

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:30Cameron Hanes?

  Right?

• 1:19:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:31Cameron Hanes?

  So you definitely don't want to be the person

• 1:19:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:19:33Cameron Hanes?

  Looking back.

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  It's a headache.

• 1:19:36Speaker 03

  But I just kind of wanted to know more of your mindset, um, and how it changes from when you're in the chase and when you're in the lead.

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. So, so in the, in the race, I actually, uh, Harry dropped me, so I was chasing him in the beginning. Um, and it was like the first 20 miles of the race. I, I didn't really care about being in second place. Uh, it was, uh, yeah. And I wasn't like trying to catch him like super fast. It was, I was just cruising, but, um, once I took the lead and I led for a hundred miles, it sucks in these races because if you're in second place, you come into an aid station and you can just ask, hey, how long ago did so and so come through? And they're like, oh, 15 minutes or 20 minutes or whatever. But if you're in front, you're like, hey, you can't be like, how far behind?

• 1:20:21Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  Is this person, you know? So you have no information on who's behind you, but if you're behind, you have all, all the information on the person in front of you. So it is a lot more stressful and nerve wracking being in the front and being chased. So, uh, yeah, I, at mile 100 and 140, I opted to let Harry go in front of me and I was gonna chase him, but he just, he took off. So it, you know, I, I wasn't stressed on him chasing me down, but at least I knew like, hey, he was, he left 15 minutes ago. He left 20 minutes ago. Hey, he left five hours ago.

• 1:20:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  Which they didn't even, uh, my crew didn't even tell me how far ahead he was at that point. They were, I was actually more concerned about

• 1:21:04Cameron Hanes?

  The third.

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  Third place. Yeah.

• 1:21:06Cameron Hanes?

  I heard in the film.

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  I was like, how?

• 1:21:07Cameron Hanes?

  Checking on that.

• 1:21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was like, how far is third place?

• 1:21:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:10Speaker 02

  You know? So that's just kind of the

• 1:21:12Cameron Hanes?

  Well, you kind of get

• 1:21:13Speaker 02

  That I was in.

• 1:21:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And then you can get to like, well, top 10 is not bad.

• 1:21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:18Cameron Hanes?

  Top 10, top 10 is good.

• 1:21:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:20Cameron Hanes?

  When you, when the wheels start coming off.

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  Which is crazy. If I could have, I think I could have stopped for an entire day.

• 1:21:28Cameron Hanes?

  And still got?

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  And still got top 10. Just took a day off.

• 1:21:31Cameron Hanes?

  That's nuts.

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:32Cameron Hanes?

  Isn't that nuts?

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. But, uh, yeah. I mean, it's so, those races are so spread out.

• 1:21:37Cameron Hanes?

  They are.

• 1:21:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:38Cameron Hanes?

  That's what, well, Courtney won by like 10 hours.

• 1:21:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:21:41Cameron Hanes?

  Or something. Moab.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:42Cameron Hanes?

  I mean,

• 1:21:43Speaker 02

  She's so sick.

• 1:21:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  She's so incredible.

• 1:21:46Cameron Hanes?

  Story many times where at that time, nobody really knew her, or I didn't. And I always kept checking in like, who's winning? You know, kind of how you said, you know?

• 1:21:55Speaker 02

  Oh, that's how you guys met?

• 1:21:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:21:57Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh, that's so cool.

• 1:21:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And so I was like, Thinking I was gonna go out conservative, be smart, and that which I never am. And it's like, so I kept thinking like, who is, who, where's the leader?

• 1:22:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Cameron Hanes?

  And they're saying, and I'm just like,

• 1:22:10Speaker 02

  She's a day ahead of you.

• 1:22:11Cameron Hanes?

  No way.

• 1:22:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:12Cameron Hanes?

  What? She went some wrong way. There's no way somebody's that far ahead.

• 1:22:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, she was.

• 1:22:18Cameron Hanes?

  She was. But yeah, it is, it is like, I understand that, that mind game. And then also you're saying, how far ahead are they? And then how they look?

• 1:22:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:22:29Cameron Hanes?

  You know, so it is like this.

• 1:22:30Speaker 02

  That's a lot of information, too.

• 1:22:31Cameron Hanes?

  It is. How do they look? What are they acting like? And if they're just like, if you hear that, oh, they came in, you know, whatever, 15 minutes ahead, and they were here for 30 seconds, you're just like,

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:43Cameron Hanes?

  God, you want somebody who just like, was camped out for a while and could barely get up.

• 1:22:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:22:48Cameron Hanes?

  If you hear a short one?

• 1:22:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, someone who's running away with a race and is just in first the entire way and just smokes everyone, that's like,

• 1:22:56Cameron Hanes?

  That's rough.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that there, that's, that's a, well, yeah.

• 1:23:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:02Speaker 02

  I, I definitely wasn't in the lead the whole time. Yeah, I was struggling. But yeah, if someone runs away with a race like that, it's like even more respect to them. Yeah, it's incredible.

• 1:23:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but that, that was a good question. I like that, the race tactics.

• 1:23:16Speaker 03

  One of the things that kind of impressed me the most in the film was Mackenzie. And how, you know, when you were hurting, she kind of seemed like, you know, it was like, well, whatever he wants, but also at the same time, she was like, no, you, you gotta go alone if you want to win this.

• 1:23:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:32Speaker 03

  How valuable is it to have someone in your corner like that who's always pushing you?

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's super important. Like sometimes, and especially when you're

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  50, 60 hours into a race, it's like hard to make decisions for like, sound decisions. And just having someone there who can almost kind of think for you, you know, you can, You know, you can dish some of the responsibility on to someone else to know what's best for you in a certain situation. And yeah, she was just amazed, like just took care of me like every, every point of the way was just so on it with all the things that go into running a race. And yeah, I just really could not have done it without her. It's a, she's been, she's been my crew chief, the best crew chief, uh, just since, uh, since I've been running, yeah.

• 1:24:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, that's, that she seemed very valuable and that as far as even just the planning, the food, but then also knowing you.

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:24:28Cameron Hanes?

  Staying on task.

• 1:24:29Speaker 02

  Personal trainer too. So she's like my trainer. She's like my coach. She's my nutritionist. She cooks, but she's at kind of everything. So yeah, I'm, uh, I'd be nothing without her for sure.

• 1:24:38Cameron Hanes?

  She did like, there was one, one time they were talking about like, you're still like four miles out or whatever. You know, like kind of being real about it. Like God, this is taking forever.

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. No, it was, uh, I mean, and I, I'm so grateful that my friends are, you know, willing to come and my friends and family are willing to come and support me and spend, you know, multiple days out in the desert chasing me. But, uh, yeah, it is really stressful for the crews, you know?

• 1:25:05Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:05Speaker 02

  It's like they're just as

• 1:25:06Cameron Hanes?

  It's a big commitment.

• 1:25:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're just as wrapped up and emotionally invested in the race as me, you know, maybe even more so than me. Cause I'm just, I'm just moving. That's the only thing that I'm focused on and they're worried about everything else, you know?

• 1:25:18Cameron Hanes?

  Well, and also it's like, you're the one getting all the attention, you know, it's like, you know, and they're so critical. The crew is so critical. It's, I, I do kind of appreciate, you know, Courtney did that film about it's a team sport or something like that. Because yeah, there, there's a big commitment. They're going through a lot also, but you're the one who's, you know, the winner.

• 1:25:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:41Cameron Hanes?

  You know, so it's a, it's very selfless of them and cool to have people like that believe in you like that. And not everybody does.

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:49Cameron Hanes?

  It's a, I was going to ask also, you know, I, I saw Sally's post and she said something about like your guys' podcast was super powerful or whatever. But tell me what you've, what Sally, what you've gained from Sally, what your friendship with her has, has been like, what, what has she taught you?

• 1:26:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, she's, I mean, she's been in the, the running space for a really long time. So she just has like a lot, a lot of knowledge with, um, just being able to navigate, you know, contracts and, uh, sponsorships and, uh, all of like, kind of the business side of it. But, um, I'm also just so inspired by her and like what she's doing and running 200 plus mile races and documenting them. Like, I'm just kind of following the Sally formula where I'm signing up for really challenging, difficult races and trying to document it and tell a story and hopefully relate to people. Yeah. So, I mean, she's just been a big inspiration and just the sweetest, kindest, most genuine person, amazing speaker. Yeah. I mean, she's just an incredible

• 1:26:51Speaker 02

  human being. I'm like, really, really a big fan of Sally.

• 1:26:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, me too. Sally McRae, everybody. Go follow her.

• 1:26:58Speaker 02

  Yellow Runner.

• 1:26:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yellow Runner. Yeah. Choose Strong was her book and amazing book. Her story is unlike any other, but, uh, it'll give anybody who's struggled in life will be inspired by her story for sure. Yeah. She's the best.

• 1:27:15Speaker 03

  Okay, we got two more. So you've talked a lot about how kind of important it was to have your boys there running with you, the energy in your family, everyone. So at the end of that race, when you made the decision to go alone, what was that mind shift or the, the thought process shift going forward?

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  That wasn't my decision. Yeah. So, so Mackenzie had been speaking to, uh, Jeff Browning and Jesse Haynes, their, their two, their friends, but they were, yeah, Jeff was, was at the race. So he was kind of, he was kind of helping us out, giving us some beta and telling Mackenzie what to do with me. And Jesse was calling the whole time, telling her what to do with me. So that decision to go alone was, that wasn't my decision. I just, she told me like, hey, if you want to win this, you have to go alone. And at that point I was just like, all right. Like I had just gotten the message from you. I was fired up. I was like, let's fucking go. And, uh, yeah, I just took off and. I didn't really understand why in the moment that was the move, but uh, looking back,

• 1:28:15Speaker 02

  it's like, if you have a pacer with you, it's almost like you can dish some of the responsibility off on the pacer and it like, maybe I wouldn't have dug as deep if I just like had someone like, I'm relying on them to set the pace and then to dig deep for me. So it was, I don't know, it was uh, just a way for me to kind of, in the most critical part of the race, just go inward and uh, yeah, just find the power within myself to just go all out and leave everything out there and just push as hard as I could until the finish. Yeah.

• 1:28:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that, that can also backfire because of, as we talked about Sally, she went by herself, I believe is at Tahoe and she left, uh, decided to not have Billy go with her. And she said, that was a huge mistake. So as we talk about this, this is so individual, this, these experiences, these races and this performance, it's like, it worked great for you, didn't work for her in that situation. Maybe in some other situation, it would have been opposite. Maybe a pacer would have helped you and, and hurt, hurt her. Um, but-

• 1:29:22Speaker 02

  Or maybe, maybe I was always gonna push that. Maybe the pacer would have just been there with me. Like, who knows? Yeah, you never know.

• 1:29:28Cameron Hanes?

  You never know, but it, all we know is what we saw and how it turned out. But yeah, it's, it's tough making those decisions. You know, I know Taylor's paced me on, well, on a 200 and I couldn't imagine doing it without him. You know, just for, I remember this one, we were 130 miles in, it's raining, middle of the dark, uh, middle of the wilderness, wherever we were is for the Bigfoot 200. And I'm just like, I just remember that moment, just looking at him going, how lucky are we? 130 miles in, in the middle of the night, and this is what we live for. So without having somebody there to like say that to, it just wouldn't feel the same. It was special.

• 1:30:11Speaker 02

  You don't get that validation of like the situation that you're in. Yeah, no, I get that.

• 1:30:15Cameron Hanes?

  So sometimes a pacer is just because you love them. And you just like sharing stuff with them.

• 1:30:20Speaker 02

  And you're enjoying the time that you're out there and that, yeah, and like that was kind of a turning point for the race. Uh, in the film, I talk about it where I got to the halfway point, mile one, 12, or whatever it was at Shea Mountain. And I didn't have pacers for that first hundred plus miles. And then once I started picking up my friends, it was like, oh, this is like, this is fun now, you know, I'm with the boys. Like, we're cruising, we're in the mountains. Like, how great is this? Like, it was like as, as tough of a situation that I was in. It was like, as soon as I got someone to just distract me from the suffering, it was like, everything kind of turned around, you know, until, until we got to the next, you know, until, until the problems arose again. But yeah, no,

• 1:31:01Speaker 02

  having a, having people there with you is so crucial and important. And I don't understand how people can run 200 mile races solo. That's so insane. Just drop bags, just raw dogging it.

• 1:31:15Cameron Hanes?

  That's nuts.

• 1:31:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, insane.

• 1:31:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I know. Uh, in that race, I don't know if they changed the course, but I remember, I think it, yeah, one, is it once, I don't know, but it's like down in the bottom of something cold as hell, but I slept there for a little while.

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  Monticello Lake.

• 1:31:34Cameron Hanes?

  Probably. And then you come, then you come up and then it's like a slight downhill for miles and you can run. Maybe it was like one 70, one eight, I don't know.

• 1:31:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, I know. The course changed, so right around that hundred and, I think 170 mile at road 46, I think the course was different this year. So I think, uh, you ran in 2022?

• 1:31:58Cameron Hanes?

  No, no, no, it's like, I ran in 2017.

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, the course, the course has changed a bunch of times, but I think the newest, uh, course is quite a bit longer than the previous years, and it gets up to, uh, higher elevation points.

• 1:32:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I remember like, it was cold, slept for a little while, came up, but there was like this slight downhill that was perfect to run. And I ran really good during that time in, in Taylor. I ended up, he was.

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  Was he leaving the LaSalle Mountains?

• 1:32:31Cameron Hanes?

  No, but that is another good drop off.

• 1:32:33Speaker 02

  That was a nice downhill. That's where, that's where I really turned it on.

• 1:32:36Cameron Hanes?

  The peak of the race, right? That's like 10,000 feet almost. Yeah.

• 1:32:39Speaker 02

  Well, I think Shea Mountain is technically the high point, but the LaSalle, the Geyser Pass aid station is like right at 10,000 again. So it's like you get up to 10,000 feet two different times. Yeah.

• 1:32:48Cameron Hanes?

  That was like, but that's coming home or is that coming home?

• 1:32:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's coming home. Yeah.

• 1:32:53Cameron Hanes?

  That's a nice feeling.

• 1:32:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. That hitting that bike path, there's, there's no better feeling than knowing you're.

• 1:32:59Cameron Hanes?

  I saw that.

• 1:33:00Speaker 02

  And God, that area Moab is just God's country, man. It's so beautiful. It's so incredible.

• 1:33:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. There were people like base jumping off the side of the cliffs as I'm running down. There's people driving on the road honking at me. It was just like a surreal experience. It was so cool.

• 1:33:15Cameron Hanes?

  Did they have where you were on the, on a pavement, then you had, this is towards right before the bike path. And then you had to climb way up in like four wheel drive roads?

• 1:33:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:24Cameron Hanes?

  Did they have that still?

• 1:33:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

• 1:33:26Cameron Hanes?

  Kind of tough up there.

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was really early in the morning when I was coming through there and then it got, it was starting to get light right, right as I was hitting the bike path. But, uh, yeah, just sunrise right there. It was so cool.

• 1:33:39Cameron Hanes?

  Beautiful, beautiful. You guys have one more?

• 1:33:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, one more. So we've talked about Cam's call to you or the video, the video text, I mean. And he asked you, you know, what's your legacy going to be? Obviously talking about the race. When this is all said and done though, the whole career, what do you want your legacy to be?

• 1:33:59Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:34:04Speaker 02

  Tough question. Yeah. Um, I just wanna, I just wanna push myself and I know it's never gonna be possible to reach my full potential, but I want to get as close to that as possible. Um, I want to, I want to do the hardest races in the world. I want to tell my story and if that's making films or, you know, uh, doing social media more. Yeah, I just want to tell my story and try to inspire others and do hard things. Yeah, that's pretty much it.

• 1:34:36Cameron Hanes?

  That's a good goal.

• 1:34:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:37Cameron Hanes?

  I like that. Yeah. So you guys are good on the questions? Well, you know, have you been to Eugene before?

• 1:34:44Speaker 02

  No, I I came to Beaverton probably 10 years ago. I was working this event at Nike at the at the campus. So I haven't been up here to Oregon in a in a really long time. But yeah, it's my first time to Eugene.

• 1:34:57Cameron Hanes?

  So here's here's the schedule. We're gonna go to O P H, which is Original Pancake House.

• 1:35:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:35:03Cameron Hanes?

  You like you like breakfast, right?

• 1:35:04Speaker 02

  Oh, hell, yeah.

• 1:35:05Cameron Hanes?

  But this one is they got pre Fontaine stuff all over.

• 1:35:08Speaker 02

  Oh, sick. We were. We were actually thinking of going to the to the pre the pre.

• 1:35:12Cameron Hanes?

  The Rock?

• 1:35:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wanna.

• 1:35:13Cameron Hanes?

  We can do that.

• 1:35:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wanna I wanna leave my A A chip, my 12 year chip for for pre.

• 1:35:18Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, we're gonna do that for sure, cuz it's it's right close to the restaurant.

• 1:35:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:35:23Cameron Hanes?

  It's right on campus, but a lot of pre stuff, you know, pre still.

• 1:35:26Speaker 02

  We went to Hayward Field this morning.

• 1:35:28Cameron Hanes?

  Did you?

• 1:35:28Speaker 02

  Just to check it out. Yeah.

• 1:35:29Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, let me think. That's what we could do. So no shit, today is Friday?

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  We gotta do Piska.

• 1:35:36Cameron Hanes?

  No, we're doing.

• 1:35:37Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 1:35:38Cameron Hanes?

  But no, they have. They have. I think we can get in between like 10 and something at Hayward cuz it was closed when you guys were there.

• 1:35:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:46Cameron Hanes?

  It's locked up. But there is like this little thing you can walk through and just kind of get the history of Hayward.

• 1:35:50Speaker 02

  We we kind of it's that little doorway that. Yeah, yeah, we were peeking in there.

• 1:35:54Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, well, and there's a little like eight minute video. It talks about, I think, the men of Hayward.

• 1:35:59Speaker 02

  Oh, sick.

• 1:35:59Cameron Hanes?

  It's badass, like the history of track here in Eugene. So we'll get breakfast. We'll do that. We'll prees Rock and then we'll go do something.

• 1:36:08Speaker 02

  Sick. Love that. Yeah, that's a dream.

• 1:36:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, cuz you know, you know what? We talked about it a lot, but pre kind of embodies this, but to give anything less than your best is a sacrifice of gift.

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:36:20Cameron Hanes?

  So all we're trying to do is give our best, you know, but you said something like you said, you don't think you can reach your full potential.

• 1:36:26Speaker 02

  There's always more in you. Yeah.

• 1:36:28Cameron Hanes?

  You can never get it.

• 1:36:30Speaker 02

  You can never get it.

• 1:36:30Cameron Hanes?

  Well, you're gonna keep chasing it, though. Yeah, try to get reach that limit. Well, dude, I'm I mean, I'm so pumped you came up here.

• 1:36:38Speaker 02

  No, thank you.

• 1:36:39Cameron Hanes?

  It's an honor to sit down and talk with you. I love I love your story. I love your journey. I know it was painful and hard and your life hasn't been easy.

• 1:36:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:49Cameron Hanes?

  And people look at you right now and they think they're probably like are envious. They don't know the pain you've been through. And they don't know the reason why you are who you are is because of those challenges. And it's just like knowing what you've been through and being able to to talk to you. It's like. I mean, this enriches my life. You enrich my life.

• 1:37:11Speaker 02

  Thank you. I appreciate that. That means the world to me.

• 1:37:13Cameron Hanes?

  I think people watching this film and learning more about you, you're gonna do the same for them too. And so I just wanna say I appreciate you, brother. Alright, thank you. Keep hammering, guys.