Odysseus, Man or Monster? The EPIC (!!) Takeover w/ Christie Vogler

Past guest and host of Movies We Dig, Christie Vogler takes over the podcast to guide Liv through EPIC The Musical... Today Liv and Christie listen to No Longer You from EPIC and set the stage for next week's full takeover episode where Christie and guests will go over the musical in detail. Find more from Christie on the Movies We Dig podcast, part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network! Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com group trip.

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• 1:27Speaker 03

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• 2:10Liv Albert?

  Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv.

• 2:16Speaker 04

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no, no, no. Let's talk about myths, baby. And this is your host, Kristy Vogler, taking over because I want to talk about something very special today.

• 2:31Liv Albert?

  And singing my, she's singing my theme song better than I, like,

• 2:35Speaker 04

  No.

• 2:36Liv Albert?

  I mean, you could like, hold a tune. It's pretty rude. Do you know, sometimes people tell me that I can't sing and I'm like,

• 2:43Speaker 04

  Duh. No, no, no, it sounds good. I love jamming out to your opening song every time.

• 2:48Liv Albert?

  I feel like it's this point is that I can't sing and that's fine, you know, but sometimes people are like, oh, she thinks she's good. And I'm like, I do not. And that's fine. That's the point, my friends. But no, so today, today, you know, we didn't, Kristy's here, but Kristy's not here to just like, talk about medicine like she normally would and like, sound all smart and shit. I mean, I'm sure she will also still sound smart, but we were talking about, I would say, a little bit more fun, fun stuff today.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, we're, we're, we're doing my other interest today, which is the classical world and pop media. So, yeah, something I do with movies we dig. It's great.

• 3:22Liv Albert?

  Now I wonder if we had, oh, I wish I had the number. Do you remember how many comments that post got?

• 3:29Speaker 04

  A hundred and twenty-nine as of this morning.

• 3:31Liv Albert?

  Thank you. So I wonder what a hundred and twenty-nine of you have so recently. Wow. I mean, on the comments on that post, I'm just, I'm leading up to it. I mean, everyone's seen the word in the episode title, but we're still gonna like, really play it low. But if you, you know, somewhat recently responded to an Instagram post that I made, even though actually Kristy made the graphic, but that I posted about a certain musical that I would say, you know, I, I always take in Q and A, uh, questions, right, for, for episodes. And for the last two years, I would say that Epic the Musical, I, I said the words Epic the Musical,

• 4:14Speaker 04

  You sure did.

• 4:15Liv Albert?

  Has, has been mentioned in those Q and As, like,

• 4:20Liv Albert?

  Hmm. I would say it's usually like twice a month at least that I get. I mean, maybe more, um, like either like a DM or, or a question or a just, have you heard of it? I believe it's even been in the Discord server we have for my patrons. And I just love it because everyone is finding it again and asking me about it. And I have been that incredibly disappointing host who has never talked about it until now, kind of.

• 4:50Speaker 04

  Kind of, kind of. Yeah. Like, you're gonna get a small dose of it today, right? Because a- as I have learned, I am an Achilles girly, whatever, but I hear you're a good old fashioned Odysseus girly.

• 5:03Liv Albert?

  You know, he is, he is historically my main man. Even if he's also simultaneously my problematic fave.

• 5:13Speaker 04

  He's a very problematic in this too, although they, they do sanitize him. And I'm sure maybe at some point we'll get to be part of that discussion, but do we at some point say the title of what the show is going to be?

• 5:28Liv Albert?

  Oh, of the episode?

• 5:29Speaker 04

  Do we say that now?

• 5:30Liv Albert?

  Not yet.

• 5:31Speaker 04

  Not yet. Okay. I'm still learning.

• 5:35Liv Albert?

  Okay, so this is the point where I was thinking, okay, so you were right earlier. We should have said the title when you said it. So I think we should record it and then you could slot it in right after you said, like, is this where we say the title and pretend that I didn't say no?

• 5:47Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 6:03Liv Albert?

  Odysseus, man or monster?

• 6:06Speaker 04

  The epic takeover.

• 6:25Liv Albert?

  That's perfect.

• 6:25Speaker 04

  That was my movie theater or my like trailer boy.

• 6:28Liv Albert?

  Oh, I, I could tell if you're for it.

• 6:32Liv Albert?

  You jump right in because the, the real thing that's happening today is that Christie is taking over. Christie is taking over this podcast.

• 6:42Speaker 04

  Because, because, because I don't want to. Yeah, Liv, tell us, tell us, you know, the people have demanded it. I went on, I counted all the comments. I tallied them up to keep track of which song we are going to listen to today. And my God, the number of people who said all of it, I'm like, you people are not helping.

• 7:01Liv Albert?

  Did you read the post, which I also forgot to include the second slide where you were like, choose carefully? And so instead it was just like one slide.

• 7:07Speaker 04

  It was beautiful, the one, yeah, no, it's good, it's good. We got what we needed because some people would go back and reply to their own comment, be like, all of them, but this one, if there's only one.

• 7:20Liv Albert?

  I, I, it was so nice to see how thrilled people are. I, I hope they're not disappointed by the volume of which I will or will not listen to today. But you, along with some very special guests, will, will listen to all of it or have listened to all of it. We'll talk about all of it. And that's what matters.

• 7:36Speaker 04

  I think we've all listened to all of it repeatedly already. So like, I, I'm going to be like, holding back from singing along to some of these suggested songs that you'll be listening to. It'll be very, the number one song that got picked is like, good choice, y'all. Good job. I, I do appreciate it. So, yeah, Liv, can you speak a little bit more about why it's kind of difficult for you to talk about Epic Musical? Or some of these other, you know, pop media receptions of the ancient world?

• 8:05Liv Albert?

  Thank you, Christie. I would love to. So this is a thing I've kind of talked about in and out on especially, especially Q and A episodes, because people ask me about these pieces of reception so often. And I am so thrilled that they exist. However, the thing about spending the last eight years making, talking about Greek mythology, my full-time job is that while I love it more than anything, it also means that now every time I want to take in a piece of reception, um, like, you know, something about Greek mythology, either a retelling or this musical, you know, everything, even Lore Olympus, which I have read most of, to be clear. But, you know, I'm, I'm asked all the time and I love that. It's so exciting. But the thing is it's become work. It's become work and.

• 8:50Liv Albert?

  In a way that like, I love my work, but when it comes to stuff like this, I find at this point, I overthink. And I lose the ability to enjoy it because even when I'm reading like a novel, say, or, or listening to something like this, like, I, I just overthink. So it's like every single thing, every single choice that they've made mythologically, like screams loudly in my head for me to think about it. And that's not even to say like, criticize or anything, just to think about every single choice they've made and wonder like, hmm, now why would they, now why did they choose to do it that way? Or why did they choose to leave this out? Or, you know, and obviously there's also lots of times where I'm like maybe annoyed by a choice or excited by a choice. But either way, it just means that like,

• 9:36Liv Albert?

  every single tiny bit of it makes my brain work so hard that it's like no longer a relaxing activity. And so, yeah, it just become, and, and also I have that, like, I think it's the, what is it called? It's like ADHD, a symptom of like, it's demand avoidance, but there's a word that comes before pathological demand avoidance.

• 10:00Liv Albert?

  Which is that the other biggest issue is that once I have had, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 plus listeners,

• 10:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:09Liv Albert?

  really excitedly tell me I need to take in this thing, it becomes like impossible, impossible. Because it's so much pressure, it's so much pressure for me to like it or just take it in in the way that they want. And like, I also don't want to ever come to a piece of reception and tear it down. Sometimes that's just like what it come, what comes out if I'm trying to talk something through, particularly if I don't have a guest. You know, like if it's just me talking, it's like, I'm just telling people like what they got right or wrong. And like, that's not really helpful or enjoyable. And I don't, I, I am so, so, so, so, so cognizant of never talking badly about someone's art ever, because they don't deserve it, even if I don't like it.

• 10:53Liv Albert?

  But I have too big of a platform. Like I don't, I have any problem with other people doing it. Like do what you need to do. But like, my platform is large enough that I, I never want to. Bring down anything that is talking about the ancient world. And so it's one of those like, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. And that doesn't apply to epic. It's just like sort of a general understanding with me when it comes to like taking in that stuff. So I've been really fighting. Also, there's something about, this is full on admission, but there's something about the like, because it's been ongoing throughout being released, right? For like two years, I went, looked back for like the first time that somebody told me to listen to it. It's like at least two years. And so there's also just something about being told by so many people

• 11:33Liv Albert?

  to listen to a thing over so long, that now it's almost become like, like a per, it's a personal like thing that I'm like, no, I don't, I haven't listened to any of it. And that way I can at least say, I haven't listened to any of it, which is changing today slash, but you know, we're getting to your next question.

• 11:51Speaker 04

  I had one of those and it was Indiana Jones. Like as an archaeologist, everyone assumed I had watched Indiana Jones growing up. And I'm like, nah, Lara Croft, Angelina Jolie. I had my archaeologist. And so if it wasn't for our podcast, Movies We Dig, and like forcing ourselves, well, forcing myself to watch it, I would have never watched them because like, it was just not a thing. And I kept being told, it's something I should watch as an archaeologist. So I totally get that. And I also get the whole, like, having to watch something, like, that's the thing, right? Pop media is supposed to be something we just enjoy, we experience. But when you have to talk about it and discuss it, you have to put on so many like extra thought processes

• 12:35Speaker 04

  in your brain and it's exhausting. Like, we've talked to a couple of different people who saw Gladiator 2. Loved it. Like, like they, they could allow themselves to not get hung up on like historical inaccuracies and anything like that. And the funny thing is like, I don't care about the historical inaccuracies. I hate the messaging, which is very anti-woman amongst many other things. And I could not enjoy it because literally the only female character, the only two were killed via arrow to the heart, both. And I'm like, how can any woman sit in a theater and just enjoy this? Like, love Denzel? No. And so I definitely get like, you want to be able to enjoy things. But when you've been doing this for so long.

• 13:20Speaker 04

  I watch things that have nothing to do with the ancient world or myth. And I like start to connect like, but how could it? How could this be connected to myth?

• 13:29Liv Albert?

  Exactly, or like somebody named somebody else Eurydice one time. And I'm like, ooh, so what are we doing with like, what have you done? And a lot of times it's like, they just like the name. Yeah. And, and then that also becomes like a frustration where I'm like, but there's so much in a name. And you've made so many choices and you know, and it's like, or you also get, this, this one's just hilarious. And it comes back to the other piece of reception that I have never interacted with. And which I'm asked about all the time, and that's Percy Jackson. That one comes down more to, I know, that one comes down more to like, I was like 18 when it came out. I just never got into it. And now again, like, I'm just not going to, that's fine. I love that people love it. That's so great. But it also spawns like, so the, the one bad review, I will literally never forget ever,

• 14:14Liv Albert?

  is the person who gave me a bad review, saying I was just ripping off Percy Jackson.

• 14:22Liv Albert?

  And by that, they meant Greek mythology, like they're in their knowledge bank. Percy Jackson invented Greek mythology. And so you get also these things where it's like, sometimes if you interact with reception in that way, you're, I mean, I, I think that's also, that's I think, an issue, not an issue with reception, but an issue with the way that people then take it in. Like there's also a whole volume of people now who only know the Odyssey through Epic. And like, that's great that they're now interacting with the Odyssey. But we all like, I don't know, it, it, it opens up so many questions, I guess, on, on like, you know, what that comes out of that.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, we're definitely going to talk about that. I'm going to talk about that with the guests that are gonna like, fully unpack the show. And if you guys listen to movies we did, we've already covered Epic the Musical as well. So we've got a lot of thoughts there. So. It's evergreen. There's so much to talk about. There's so much to enjoy. And I'm really thankful Liv is willing to at least go through one song with me and, and hopefully start to see why it has such appeal to people. And maybe if I take off the load a little bit, maybe she'll get to enjoy it more fully down the line.

• 15:31Liv Albert?

  Well, and I'm so thankful that you want to take over an episode of my podcast.

• 15:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:35Liv Albert?

  In order to talk about it. And also want to say, like, you know, for the true honesty and also like joking honesty, which is that like, I'm really thrilled that you want to take this work off of my plate. Thank you. Um, you're giving me an episode, but on top of that, you're giving me an episode because explicitly I need, I need to put off some of the work of this podcast right now so that I can write my own retelling of the Odyssey. So it's like,

• 15:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:59Liv Albert?

  There's, there's so many layers happening with today's takeover episode.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  Oh, yes. Yeah. And like, as I said, evergreen. So for all of the Christopher Nolan fans who are like, oh my God, look at this man who found a thousand year old poem to turn into a movie. And we're all sitting here like, dude, it's been around.

• 16:22Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. We won't go into Christopher Nolan's movie. We will wait for that episode a year from now or so.

• 16:28Liv Albert?

  Except to say that Matt Damon is possibly the worst casting in cinema history.

• 16:33Speaker 04

  Did you see, okay, sidebar, sidebar.

• 16:36Liv Albert?

  Oh, God.

• 16:36Speaker 04

  Lupita Nyong'o is playing. Do you know who she's playing?

• 16:40Liv Albert?

  No, I haven't seen it yet.

• 16:41Speaker 04

  Clytemnestra. And I'm like, what the fuck is Clytemnestra doing here?

• 16:45Liv Albert?

  In the Odyssey?

• 16:47Speaker 04

  Why?

• 16:48Liv Albert?

  Why would also though?

• 16:50Speaker 04

  Exactly. I know where you're going because I went there too.

• 16:55Liv Albert?

  You're gonna give the, like, the, the woman with the deepest skin tone. Let's be perfectly frank about it because it's not only that she's the, one of the women of color in this movie, but she is the woman with the deepest skin tone and you're giving her the arguably, yeah, not just the, I mean, the, like, the angry woman, but not only that, but like, I mean, clearly, they're not going to just stay true to the Odyssey because Clytemnestra is not in the Odyssey.

• 17:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:27Liv Albert?

  But the references to Clytemnestra in the Odyssey are terrible. And they are like, oh. See, and the thing, the speculation I read earlier was that, you know, somebody was like, she'll play Cersei and Zendaya will play Calypso, which was in itself also like, what? Like equally problematic, but like for a different reason.

• 17:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:49Liv Albert?

  But oh, my God.

• 17:50Speaker 04

  See, it could have been fun if they made her Helen, though, because like, that would have upset a bunch of people, because Helen is in the Odyssey.

• 17:55Liv Albert?

  Have they? Well, so I was hoping that that Zendaya was going to be Helen.

• 18:02Speaker 04

  I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure like people have reported that she is going to be Athena. So I know weird, weird choices. The only one that makes sense to me is Tom Holland as Telemachus.

• 18:11Liv Albert?

  Literally the only one that makes sense. Absolutely. And yet, that makes perfect sense. I think that that is the only good casting. But making him the son of Matt Damon, I think actually then makes that casting weird.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  Well, it works a little better, but like.

• 18:29Liv Albert?

  Like, I do, I do think him as Telemachus works, but not with Matt Damon as Odyssey, which I'll literally.

• 18:34Speaker 04

  We'll have more to say about that in the upcoming months, I'm sure, as it all comes out. But yes, the Trojan War is going to feature very prominently in the Odyssey. And apparently some of the other side stories going on, because weird, weird choices happening.

• 18:50Liv Albert?

  Have they heard the Odyssey?

• 18:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So I guess that brings us to.

• 18:56Liv Albert?

  Anyway, Epic is also the Odyssey.

• 18:59Speaker 04

  Epic is the Odyssey. Epic is the Odyssey, and it's really interesting because the majority of the song focuses on the first 12 books of the Odyssey, which is the very adventuresome fun part. And the last saga, the Ithaca saga, is literally like the last 12 books of it practically. So it's a kind of complete reversal of the movie Return, The Return, which was like almost wholly focused on the last 12 books.

• 19:22Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 19:23Speaker 04

  So it's been fun to like compare the both of them.

• 19:27Liv Albert?

  Oh, okay. So I got dark, I got dark thinking about Nolan's Odyssey.

• 19:32Speaker 04

  I know. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have brought it there, but.

• 19:34Liv Albert?

  Okay, the listeners know how I feel.

• 19:36Speaker 04

  Like, Odie is, it's the year of Odie, apparently. So like, he's just having a time. Like, it's great.

• 19:43Liv Albert?

  I mean, honestly, the, the thing that I am holding on to with the tightest grip I can muster is that Christopher Nolan's. Absolute shit show is the reason I got a book deal to write a children's retelling of The Odyssey. And I am so fucking excited with that. I could scream and I will, I will not put the word fuck in the book. Just to be clear, but like, they know what they got picking me. So here we are.

• 20:05Speaker 04

  I'm looking forward to it.

• 20:08Liv Albert?

  Now, Chris, do you have a question for me that I want to answer? So give it to me. What is my experience with Epic unless that was already?

• 20:15Speaker 04

  What is your experience with Epic? That was the question. I thought, and like I blanked if I'd asked you already, because I did technically ask you already, but it wasn't recording.

• 20:24Liv Albert?

  Well, it wasn't while I was recording. Yeah.

• 20:26Speaker 04

  I know.

• 20:26Liv Albert?

  We'll pretend we did it right.

• 20:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:28Liv Albert?

  Well, I mean, I think I've already, I mean, the other thing is I've already hinted at this so well, but like, so my experience with Epic is that I had not listened to literally any of it because again, of the pathological demand avoidance. I literally, I could not. And then, and then I was scrolling TikTok, scrolling TikTok and this, this audio came on. People have been using this audio, you know, for entirely the audio. All the videos I've seen of this audio has been not Greek myth related at all, which is how it came on to my like private TikTok where I don't follow Greek myth stuff because it's just my like for funsies account. And then the one I can remember was like the, the final where I was like, oh my God.

• 21:10Liv Albert?

  I was like, it's, I'm never going to get rid of it now because it's, it's just like, now it's haunting me in this like hilarious way. But Drew Afwalo, who is like just an awesome feminist to follow and use this audio. And I was just like singing along to it. Everyone's just singing along to it. But I very, very quickly from like three words was like, oh, this is epic. This is, I've, I've been, I've, I've been like, it was a Trojan horse. Oh my God. The only reason I've listened to any of Epic the Musical at this point right now is because of a Trojan horse, which is that there's this, I guess there's this song and I, without, what I do love also is like, I could hear like literally five words and be like,

• 21:49Liv Albert?

  oh, I know, not only do I know that this is epic, but I know exactly the point in The Odyssey that this is referring to because it is. Clearly Calypso singing to Odysseus when he's woken up on it, or rather, he has woken up. I don't know how long he's been there, whatever. And she's like, who's Penelope? And then there's this big gap and he says, my wife. And, and anyway, people have been really having fun.

• 22:14Speaker 04

  She goes, anyways.

• 22:15Liv Albert?

  Yeah. It's great. It's very fun, but it was so funny to me to be like, this is the first time I have, because I have sort of pointedly avoided it just for being stubborn. And so just, it's utterly hilarious to me that the very first time I ever got to listen to it. And I immediately like DM'd Christine was like, oh my God, my like, my streak has been ruined because of TikTok.

• 22:38Speaker 04

  I know, I was like so excited, like I'm polling everyone. I'm gonna get a list of like, which songs, the one song Liv is gonna be exposed to you. And then it was thwarted by TikTok, of course.

• 22:48Liv Albert?

  Truly, just this like silly line that I saw like a good five people that I follow for completely non-work related reasons. Like using this line and Liv thinking to it and it's just so funny, so funny. So thank you TikTok for ruining my streak. Um, but also it did make me feel like, okay, like I, I do love that I was, it's, it's so clearly the Odyssey that I was like, I, I, I know every single thing about what's happening here. And I find that hilarious. So.

• 23:14Speaker 04

  And to be fair, I think that is the true epic experience, actually. Like that is literally how it just blew up was the creator Jay was just so savvy with social media and just put it out there all the time, every step of the process. So like, I literally think everyone's exposure to Epic the Musical was not to go like on Spotify and be like, let's see if I can find an album about the Odyssey. It's literally just some random clip that showed up in their social media and they're like, okay, that's a bop. What is that?

• 23:43Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, no, and that's so fun and what a great way of doing. I mean, I can, I can tell that purely because of the way that people have interacted with me about it over the years. Because people will still find it now and think it's brand new, which I love because it's like finally complete. And so it's got this like kind of new resurgence within people or just people are finding it now that it's finished. Or just, you know, the same people listening all the time are like, it's finished. That's so great. But like, you know, people are still coming in all the time. Like, have you heard this new musical? Have you heard of Epic? Like, I do enjoy, and I think. I think you can listen to like the last four Q and A episodes I've done. And every time I've been like, I got this question. I'm going to give you the quick answer. And that's a disappointing answer, which is like, no, I've not listened to it, but I know about it and it's great that it exists. Thank you.

• 24:27Speaker 04

  Yep, yep.

• 24:27Liv Albert?

  But like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, but it's been a really interesting way to like, to, to watch it kind of grow from the outside, even without listening.

• 24:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, I guess that brings us to what the rest of the episode is going to be, right?

• 24:40Liv Albert?

  So Christie's taking it off my hands.

• 24:43Speaker 04

  I am, I am. I have an agenda and everything.

• 24:47Liv Albert?

  Which is where she diverges from me in every way.

• 24:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm taking over now. I'm actually taking over. And here's the game plan, listeners. So we are going to make Liv listen to and react to the song that you all voted for as number one. And I will say it was very illuminating to see like, the breakdown of like, what songs were most popular and which ones like, got no love. And surprisingly, a lot of Athena songs like never really got a vote, even though I think they're, they're like interesting songs. Um, I think Warrior of the Mind was the one exception that got votes, but so it was interesting. My boy, Polyphemus, also got no love and I love Polyphemus's song.

• 25:27Liv Albert?

  Wow. I mean, I like Polyphemus. So I agree with you.

• 25:30Speaker 04

  I feel like they were also like trying to curate, like what would be the best song that Liv would enjoy that she'd be hooked to go and listen to more. So like,

• 25:38Liv Albert?

  I love my listeners.

• 25:39Speaker 04

  I understand. It wasn't necessarily like a popularity vote. It was like a curation vote for like, what's going to get Liv to listen to all of it, which is what you all really wanted, I think.

• 25:48Liv Albert?

  Yeah. I mean, the number of you that just said, all of it.

• 25:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. So, so we're going to listen to one and I'm going to provide some context for the song. So Liv, Liv, Liv obviously knows what's happening in the Odyssey, but.

• 25:59Liv Albert?

  I have a good idea.

• 26:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's epic. The musical's got some different things going on, so we'll just kind of contextualize it. And then, um, we'll listen to it. We'll, we'll do a quick reaction and then we're going to shift gears and talk to some friends of both of our podcasts. To like delve really deep into it. And I think you guys are going to be excited to hear like, who's going to chat with me about it. So I think that's the plan, right?

• 26:24Liv Albert?

  Yeah, it's so exciting. I love this.

• 26:26Speaker 04

  So friends, your number one pick for Liv to listen to was No Longer You, which comes right in the middle of the underworld saga. And I think is an excellent choice. At the time that, uh, my podcast recorded. Um, the Underground Saga, I hadn't listened to as much. I was really into the Ithaca Saga. It had just come out. And I've definitely, I think Underground is like top notch, like excellent choice, you guys. And this song is specifically sung by Thereseus, the seer.

• 27:01Liv Albert?

  Okay, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready.

• 27:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. And this supposedly like makes up the end of the first act and it's kind of this transition of like Odysseus has done a lot of things. Nothing's going well. He's going to the seer to be like, how the fuck do I get home at this point? And uh, yeah, so that's this song. And I'm gonna go ahead and play. If you guys haven't heard it yet, you can pause here. Go take a listen. No longer you. And then uh, yeah, we'll chat about it here momentarily. So here you go, Liv.

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• 30:47Speaker 04

  So Liv, what's your, what's your impression?

• 30:53Liv Albert?

  This is, see, this is why, this is why Christie is doing the rest of it. Cause I just. I don't care about musicals. I feel like that's so, I feel like people are gonna be so mad at me for that. It's not that I don't care about them. It's that I like, like that was good. It was interesting. I don't, I think my attention span has trouble with musicals because I feel like really focused unless I'm watching them. If I'm like watching a play musical in a theater, great, love it, here for it. But it is the, and I know people will tell me like there's visuals you could watch. It's fine. Yeah.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:26Liv Albert?

  But it's, I can't, I can barely pay attention to documentaries because they are too slow for my freaky ADHD brain. That just needs everything to be moving so quickly. And so it's just one of those things like, I'm glad I listened to that. Thank you. Um.

• 31:41Liv Albert?

  It, I li- I liked, I liked some of the foreshadowing.

• 31:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:46Liv Albert?

  I'm, it does like, it does make me have questions about the underworld's aspects mostly. Like, do we, so I'm just gonna ask you about them because I don't want to listen to more.

• 31:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:57Liv Albert?

  Ah, like, do the women come? Like, do we have like a whole, like, what is the accuracy level in the underworld scene?

• 32:05Speaker 04

  Um, so it's been a while since I read the book, but the previous song is called The Underworld. So before we get to Tyrese, Ty- Tyreseus, there we go. We do have a little bit of his mom coming and singing about waiting for him and she passes away. And it's, it's a pretty emotional moment, um, in that song. And then the other one is, um, Polites also makes an appearance. And Polites is really funny in the animatics because they draw him with glasses. And he's just like a little nerdy boy and he has a song called Open Arms. And he's like, he is this ideal version of like, hey, we need to embrace the world around us. We need to like not fight everything.

• 32:46Speaker 04

  And so there's like two named, um, characters that are, um, followers of Odysseus. And one is Polites and one is Eurylicus.

• 32:57Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 32:57Speaker 04

  And Eurylicus is kind of the other extreme of like. Hey, everyone's out to get us and we gotta be ruthless.

• 33:04Liv Albert?

  Maybe you shouldn't have fallen off of fucking-

• 33:05Speaker 04

  And if we wanna get home. And Odysseus, up to this point, is kind of trying to weave those two in between. But the thing is, Polites was killed by Polyphemus. So like, he's really struggled to maintain that, what we might think of as his humanity in these adventures. Because Polites is lost so early in the musical. And Eurylochus is constantly there until this final betrayal that happens, that's mentioned in the song. And this is also the song, and this is gonna come into the title for the episode, where Odysseus has been struggling with this idea of, do you embrace monstrosity in order to cause less harm to the people you care about?

• 33:51Speaker 04

  And I will appreciate that Jay begins this by having the very first song is "The Infant and the Horse", in the very first saga, and he throws a styonex off the wall. And ever since then, he-

• 34:02Liv Albert?

  I did see the title.

• 34:03Speaker 04

  He'll keep going back to is like, that decision, right?

• 34:05Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 34:05Speaker 04

  Of... It's interestingly presented that like Zeus and the fates are basically telling him, you don't really have a choice. Like, if you don't do it, then like, someone's gonna die and it's gonna be you and your family for retribution. And so he makes that decision because he thinks it's for the greater good. And he doesn't view himself as monstrous for having done so. And then he keeps meeting these different people who also make monstrous decisions, supposedly for the greater good. And at the end of the day, is anyone really good for that?

• 34:36Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 34:38Speaker 04

  And so, yeah.

• 34:39Liv Albert?

  Okay. So, but, but what about, what about the women in the underworld?

• 34:46Speaker 04

  Uh, his mom's the only one.

• 34:50Liv Albert?

  I am glad I'm not listening to this musical. Sorry, that makes me so fucking angry. Do you not remember, do you remember the women who are in the Odyssey? In the underworld?

• 34:59Speaker 04

  I, again, it's been a while. I read the back half of the Odyssey for the return.

• 35:04Liv Albert?

  Great. Well, then I just need to scream it at you because I need you to be mad with me about this. The underworld scene in the Odyssey, in book 12 of the Odyssey, is entirely women, except for Tyresius.

• 35:18Liv Albert?

  There is a an entire like huge, beautiful section detailing all the women that Odysseus sees in the underworld, and it's all of these women wronged by men. It is inarguably one of the best representations of mythological women in the ancient sources. So the idea that he has, he put the mom and two dudes in the underworld actually makes me curious.

• 35:46Speaker 04

  That's fair. That is totally fair because I, what I remember is Achilles and Agamemnon also make an appearance. So like, those are moments I remember.

• 35:55Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I mean, Agamemnon does, and he just like shits on his wife, which is super fun, and why we're afraid to have Lupita playing Clytemnestra, because that's literally the only references to Clytemnestra is just how she fucked up and killed Agamemnon. I, we're, hold on.

• 36:12Speaker 04

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• 39:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:13Liv Albert?

  Trying to decide how if how how righteously angry I am, or maybe I'm wrong. It's been a while. I've only reread up to book four for my book. So, okay, it's book 11, not 12, by the way.

• 39:23Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 39:23Liv Albert?

  Okay, yeah, great. No, I'm not wrong. I'm not wrong. Okay, cool. Okay, this is me reading a bunch of, just some of the Emily Wilson translation. Okay, so it was with his mother, so as slash after he talks to his mother. It then says, okay, as we were talking, some women came, sent by Persephone. And then it just goes into this big, long, big, long list of all of these women who come and who, okay, so they took, they took turns coming forward, this is a quote, and each told her history. The first was Welborn Tiro, child of Salmonius and wife of Cretheus, Iola's son.

• 40:03Liv Albert?

  And then tells her story and then, okay, and then, okay, just a bunch more of like her, her story. And then, and also like everything she did. And then Antiope, and then Alcmeni, and Megara, Epicasti, so Jocasta,

• 40:23Liv Albert?

  Chlorus, and a bunch, I'm trying to like pull out names because it's just this whole bit. Oh, and then Leda, and Ifamadaya, and Phaedra comes up, Procris comes up, Ariadne, Mira, Climene, Eryphile.

• 40:49Liv Albert?

  Oh, they were silent, kept going, Arete, keeps going.

• 40:56Speaker 04

  So a lot of women left out.

• 40:57Liv Albert?

  Yeah, literally, it's just a list of women and their stories. And that's why I love that part in this book. That's, that's why the minute you said the underworld, I was like, oh, great. It's an incredibly beautiful representation of women's stories in ways that we don't get in 99.9% of the rest of the surviving sources. And this is why I don't listen, though, guys, because otherwise I'll just do this to you.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  Well, and to be fair, that was like, there was something we were critical about on two levels with the choices Jay made, and I think. In context of the entire concept album, they make sense with what choices he made. One was, of course, no, no modern adaptation. Everyone wants to talk about the hanging of the servant women.

• 41:45Liv Albert?

  Slave women, just to be, because I think it's important that we, they're not getting paid. They are enslaved.

• 41:51Speaker 04

  Yes. So that never, like, that wasn't brought up in the return. Like, no one wants to touch that.

• 41:57Liv Albert?

  It wasn't till the return I wanted to add.

• 41:59Speaker 04

  That's wholly irredeemable in, and like, no one's gonna be even remotely sympathetic to Odysseus and Telemachus if that happens.

• 42:05Liv Albert?

  That's the point. We're putting, I'm putting it in my kid's book. I don't know how, but I'm doing it.

• 42:10Speaker 04

  That's why, that's why Asgard X, like, that, that's kind of like their, but he threw a baby off the wall, like, at the beginning. Like, that's bad, right? The other choice that they made is that he is wholly faithful to Penelope. And both Calypso and Cersei are the instigators of their seduction of him, but they fail to seduce him. Which comes out in the Song of God games, which if you don't catch the fact that, like, Odysseus actually resists them and doesn't sleep with them, then God games is very confusing. Um, once you listen to it, because there's basically this joke of like, um, Athena's trying to convince all the gods that they should let Odysseus return home.

• 42:48Speaker 04

  And she goes to Hera and Athena's trying to like, oh, he's, he's funny. He's really smart. And Hera's like, whatever. It's like, well, never once has he cheated on his wife. And then she goes, well, let him go then. And I'm like, wait, what? That is not even remotely Odysseus. And our, our guest Bren pointed out that, like, you know, there's so much media that talks about the cheating husband all the time, that sometimes it's refreshing to have a guy just be faithful to his wife. And that's kind of the driving force behind all of Odysseus's decisions. It's like, he just wants to get back home to Penelope. So like, it was very much a choice.

• 43:25Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 43:25Speaker 04

  And it works for the musical.

• 43:26Liv Albert?

  But it demonizes the other women.

• 43:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:29Liv Albert?

  Like, it's a choice that comes at the cost of women.

• 43:32Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yep. I, I think a lot of your fans wanted, and some of them made the top and will maybe react to them in the future. But like a lot of the other songs, like, look at Circe, look at, um, even though I don't know they made the top, but like, he has a song for Silla. He has a song for the sirens and he has kind of a reflective song that comes after the underworld called Monster. Where Odysseus actually reflects on actually all of these things that I view as monstrous on the receiving end. If I put myself in their shoes, then like, really, they're just surviving. They're taking care of themselves. So I appreciate that there's a little bit of that. But yeah, at the end of the day, it's a story centered on Odysseus and trying to keep him

• 44:18Speaker 04

  human enough that we root for him to get back to Penelope.

• 44:23Liv Albert?

  This episode is turning into something a little different and we're, we're gonna figure out how we're releasing it in that way because I'm glad we did this. But like, I, I, I, that bums me out. Like it bums me out so hard. And I think I'd heard like a little inklings of the treatment of women in Epic. And that's also why, like, I really don't ever want to come on here and complain about something that people love. And so I, that's honestly, I think this was a great example of like, why I choose to keep my mouth shut on things like this, on things that people love in this way and that I recognize as being really beneficial to mythology broadly and to reception. Like, it's great.

• 45:07Liv Albert?

  And I don't want to just come on and shit on it, which is why I, I do try to avoid doing that. And then, but to hear that, like, so, I mean, it, it brings up a wider issue that I have with, like, let's focus even on just the Odyssey, because I think, I mean, clearly it's really in the zeitgeist. I'm writing a book. Christopher Nolan's doing a shitty movie. Like it's, it's in, it's, it's out here right now and, and clearly Epic is like taking over everything. And so like, I think that we today have this, I mean, well, we definitely do have this bizarre thing in our heads where in order for us to like, in order for somebody to create like a

• 45:48Liv Albert?

  mass piece of art like this, like the hero, quote unquote hero has to be like, one, he has to be what we refer to as a hero in modern, in our modern, modern language and modern culture, not necessarily what made a hero in the ancient Greek world. And we like fundamentally lost this distinction in a way that I think has really harmed how we see these things, but also how we see the complexity of humanity and also like the, the weight of the patriarchy. Like if we continually retell stories of the Odyssey where Odysseus only does good, we are fundamentally misunderstanding the human story that it's telling and the like

• 46:31Liv Albert?

  cultural memory that it exists as. Like, the Odyssey is not a story some guy wrote down from start to finish to like tell a fun story. Like, it's literally not that. And if we conceptualize it as this thing where this nice man just wanted to go home to his wife after a war and like, this is all the trouble he had and all the things he went through and all the women who tried to seduce him. Like, not only are we doing a disservice to the Homeric tradition, to oral storytelling, to ancient Greece, but also to our modern culture, because we are continuing to amplify this idea that, that men in these stories were meant to be good and valiant and only do good things and have

• 47:15Liv Albert?

  good morals and all of these things that like, put this like sheen on something that is otherwise like interesting because, like, the Odyssey is interesting because it is looking at humanity and all of its flaws and all of its, like, the whole, the Odyssey is good because you don't know what to do with Odysseus, because I spent ages loving him and then read it more and was like, oh, he's problematic as shit. I still love him. He's still my main man. He's terrible. Yeah. And I love him and I love the Odyssey because.

• 47:53Liv Albert?

  Because he's also terrible, because it has all these terrible things, but these things are real and like, but I also personally, I love the Odyssey because it has women. Because it has strong women who aren't wronged and who aren't, well, they are wrong, but like, who aren't all made to be these like, like 99% of surviving myth sources, women are side characters, they're accessories, they are possessions to be owned and played with, right? Traded, given away, all of these things, like they're not people, they're things. And I

• 48:34Liv Albert?

  think the Odyssey in comparison to almost everything else makes them people. He make, the Odyssey has women who are people and who are like flawed and interesting, but realistic.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  And I'm gonna add to that. Like, I don't think it's problematic that you come in here and complicate media like this.

• 48:59Liv Albert?

  Yeah. No, me neither. I just don't want to like, I think it's good in a conversation. This is, this is the format I need it for.

• 49:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:06Liv Albert?

  Because it's fair and reasonable, like.

• 49:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:10Liv Albert?

  Yeah, that's so, ah, I'm so bummed.

• 49:13Speaker 04

  It, and I think, you know, maybe context, more of the song might change perceptions slightly, but I think you've, you know, you've highlighted critiques that are really important to consider. And I think your audience, that's why they want your voice on it is because they know they enjoy it, but they might feel something icky about it. Like when I watch Gladiator 2 and I watched the end, it's like, there is something so icky about this ending. And I had to like, think and talk about it with people to really unpack what that was.

• 49:46Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Speaker 04

  And to feel justified in that feeling. And I think women especially, you know, the two men I talked to, so it's like, I just, you know, if you shut off your archaeology historian mind, then it's just a good movie. And I'm like, even if I shut off the historical mind. I hate this movie. I hate what it's saying. I hate how it it makes me feel erased from history.

• 50:08Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 50:09Speaker 04

  And I, you know, you can only really do that through talking it out with other people and getting the perspectives. And I think that's why listeners want you, you can say, I still enjoy this. I, I don't like Athena as a character. I like some of the songs. I like the way he explored the relationship between Odysseus and Athena as something different. But that doesn't change my perception of who I think of as Athena in the historical context of the, when the Greek myths were produced. Like, it doesn't change that. It's just a new way to look at her in a modern context.

• 50:39Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Well, and I think, and I'm going to turn this a little into something we were talking about earlier off the microphone. But like, that, what you just said about the people you watched or talked about it with being like, oh, you know, if we just shut off these parts of your brain, like, this reminds me of why, why I, I am forcing the memory collective to exist. Which is that there is only a really certain type of person that is able to look past cert, like, things like that. And, and it comes with this level of privilege that I think we don't, we don't see it as privilege.

• 51:20Liv Albert?

  We, like, the number of white male historians and even like people who do like really accessible work, but who like pride themselves on being, on like talking about the ancient world apolitically. Or, or like, and this is a line that people come to me with all the damn time and I will always deny its, its validity. Is that like going to the ancient world without putting our mo- modern moralities on it. And I think that this, that comes from this place of privilege that to me screams of like, just like the erasure, the erasure of everything, because history is political.

• 52:03Liv Albert?

  All of these works are political. Like, every single text that we have today from the ancient world is political. No matter what was in the text, because the fact that it survives is the result of countless political decisions that were made by men. Over 2,000 plus years. And so if we, like, there is only this bizarre little group of people who are so taken in by the patriarchy that they can say that, like, you, we can just look at this thing without modern morality, without po- politics, because those people see themselves in it now. And the rest of us do not see ourselves in it now. And so we are not able

• 52:48Liv Albert?

  to do that, and nor should we, because we existed back then, but they didn't keep us. And that's not, that's a political decision. That's a moral decision. Like, modern morality, I mean, when, like, there are things that are modern morality, absolutely, but most of what gets termed modern morality is human morality. It is objective, right and wrong, when it comes to egalitarianism, when it comes to generally humans being equal, it's not modern morality, it's equality.

• 53:23Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 53:24Liv Albert?

  And it, it, all of those things existed back then, because humans existed back then. They just don't survive for us, because they were left out.

• 53:34Speaker 04

  Yes. Yeah.

• 53:35Liv Albert?

  Anyway, yeah, I, I didn't mean to do that epic, and that's not what I mean by this work, but I think that it is a symptom of all of that. Like, I don't think that the Creator did any of that on intentionally, and I don't think that he is inherently part of the problem, but he is a symptom of the wider problem, which is that we are taught all of this stuff. We are taught everything from history and history of the ancient world as if it is just a thing that exists in exactly this way and always has. And that is pointedly untrue and lacks all context and like, all of this additional stuff that went into why we have the history that we have today. And anyway, that's, that's what.

• 54:20Liv Albert?

  Time to do, but thankfully I have Christie to help me and Michaela and other people. But like, I just, it makes me so sad, I guess. It makes me so sad that this is the way that the Odyssey keeps being read over and over and over again. And I'm counting Christopher Nolan in there. I'm counting like, to me, this is every kind of piece of reception that I've ever found with the Odyssey. Is it just makes me sad because I think that one, it like takes away from the actual ancient texts that we have. And like all of the value that it holds inherently and all of the value that it's that the context holds. And like, it, it just like, I don't know, it just like ignores everything that is so interesting, which is that like, Odysseus is a human guy.

• 55:03Liv Albert?

  He's a piece of shit sometimes, he's a good guy sometimes. And isn't that more interesting than just this guy who desperately wants to get home to his wife? And like, he absolutely stayed faithful to her the whole time, despite all of the evidence in the Odyssey that he fucked everyone. Like, come on.

• 55:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, yeah, I think this is something that I got, I got to explore in my, my paper on the last 25 years of gladiators on screen. And someone had made a point, I should be able, but like, when media is produced at such a high level of expense, you try to stay very ideologically general, so as not to piss off any particular group. And I think, I think that's what makes these so popular and accessible. And I think it's the memory collective. It's the work that we do to show people, hey, it's a lot more complicated than that.

• 56:00Speaker 04

  And these stories in these tallings are important because they say something about who we are today. And we should unpack that and we should question that. And there's nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean we are, you know, throwing shade at the creator or anything like that. Because as you said, it's, it's speaking to Jay as a person, our culture in the moment, and what we want to see out of the future. Like, the one thing I really liked and thought was interesting was that. At the final song, the final song that Athena and Odysseus have a conversation in, Athena is embracing this idea of like, maybe we should have a kinder world. Maybe we should try to do that. And Odysseus comes out and says, I'm too changed and my life is too short at this point.

• 56:44Speaker 04

  I can't do that, but you as an immortal being can. And I thought that was such an interesting take from how we think about, you know, immortality as like creating stasis and like someone who doesn't have the ability to see that change in the world. And giving it to Athena, who like, again, not my favorite goddess for many other reasons, but like, I thought that was an interesting take. Yeah.

• 57:05Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 57:06Speaker 04

  I thought that was an interesting take and I, I liked that at the end. It's like, you know, this is the story. This is how it played out. If we want a kinder world, we have to work at it. Not just within our lifetimes, but over and over and over again.

• 57:20Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just think like, I just am perpetually disappointed that, because I just think the Odyssey, I'm literally going to do it myself. It's fine. But like, I just think the Odyssey is so ripe for a retelling that is both like accessible and enjoyable, but also that doesn't sanitize a story that has existed for as long as it has and doesn't need to be sanitized. Because the truth, like, the story is the story. And it says something about humanity. And if we are always trying to sanitize these types of stories throughout the course of human history, like if we're always trying to sanitize stories of terrible men,

• 58:02Liv Albert?

  we're literally never going to get anywhere as a society, ever.

• 58:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. And this is why we needed humanities and or people that are actually dedicated to what the humanities stand for.

• 58:13Liv Albert?

  Damn right. Damn right. Anyway, follow the Memory Collective. Collectivemem.com.

• 58:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:20Liv Albert?

  I don't know what I'm doing.

• 58:22Speaker 04

  And I guess at this point, do I say the title now?

• 58:25Liv Albert?

  So to the listeners, the goal of this introduction, it was an introduction. It's, it's 54 minutes.

• 58:31Speaker 04

  It was totally an introduction.

• 58:33Liv Albert?

  It was an introduction and I said, it'll be like 15 because I'm, I don't know myself, I guess. I'm entirely lacking in self-awareness.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  We should know better between us, honestly.

• 58:42Liv Albert?

  Truly. The listeners are like, you guys just recorded four hours on medicine and you, you very clearly went double the time then. What are you, what were you thinking? But anyway, I, this will be the introductory episode. And then, uh, I think this, what, what I'll do is air this on a Tuesday and on Friday will be Christie's real takeover, which is a conversation about Epic the Musical with some really exciting guests who both went on my show and who are both great guys. See, we'll have men, it's fine. I don't hate them all. They just, at this point, I hate most of them. So, uh, but, uh, that's kind of what, what happened with this recording to all of you.

• 59:24Liv Albert?

  Um, so stay tuned though, there, just give us a few more days and then you'll get to listen to the whole thing because we can't be brief, but also I think this is so valuable and I'm glad we had this whole discussion. So you guys are getting all of it. Um, do you have anything else you want to say in the end of this one?

• 59:39Speaker 04

  Um, I don't think so. I think I like already promoted movies we dig in it. So I'm good enough for now. Yeah.

• 59:47Liv Albert?

  Thank you all, uh, so much for listening to this thing that turned into a totally other thing. Stay tuned for more. Obviously Christie is one of the hosts of Movies We Dig, which is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, and we are trying to put together as much as humanly possible. I don't know, maybe we should ask for volunteers. Let's see. Um, I'll see if anyone replies to that, uh, random statement I just made. Thank you all so much though. Let's talk about Miss Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert, except in this case where Christie did all of the work. Michaela Panguish is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer. Select music by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network. God damn it. Learn more at collectivemem.com and sign up for the newsletter, missbaby.com/newsletter,

• 1:00:30Liv Albert?

  where you can also learn more and we have ad free at patreon.com/missbaby. And now I'm gonna stop. I am Liv and I, I, I love this shit even when it's not what I want it to be. Do you want to add in anything? Cause you can, if you wanted to say that you're.

• 1:00:46Speaker 04

  I just always say bye.

• 1:00:49Liv Albert?

  It works too?

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