“This Will Make You INSANELY Rich!” The Next 365 Days Will Make MILLIONAIRES From Nothing | Gary Vee

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  The amount of people that quit a week before it was all gonna turn is actually quite high.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  My answer to this question is, do you like it? And how long can you hold your breath?

• 0:43Speaker 01

  At 34, I made $67,000 for the year.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  At 35, I made $240. People that are good, that are awesome, that come from the heart are going to win. Everybody has become remarkable at pointing fingers. It has become a global pandemic. When somebody's upset today, where is I fucking suck? I don't feel sorry for you people because you fucking deserve it because it's a decision you made. My belief is that 99% of people are uncomfortably trickable. What do you mean? I think most people are so insecure, so short term, that if you just feed them what they need, that you can basically manipulate them into anything you want to do.

• 1:19Speaker 00

  This is extremely dangerous to our democracy.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  I hate that. I think what people need to do is find their selfish place.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  First of all, Cole, how do you have so much energy? Is it pure adrenaline or is it caffeine? Do you get like 12 hours of sleep every night? You must not because you work so much.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny. So to answer your question, I think it's a combination of two things. I think it's natural adrenaline, energy. Like, I think there's a DNA part going on for sure. Hyper schmiper. But I do believe that I have extra energy on top of that because of my emotional and mental perspective. I think I'm incredibly driven by gratitude. It is not lost on me that a day that I wake up where no one that I care about has died or became terminally ill is a good day. I'm very half glass full. I really thrive on optimism and gratitude. So I'm in a good mood. And when you're in a good mood, you get more done. Like, if you're dwelling... You're not as productive, you're not as excited.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  If you're not happy, like when I'm concerned or challenged, my energy is not as high. I'm not as light.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  So you think if more people practice that, they would have more energy throughout the day to get more done?

• 2:35Speaker 01

  100% and not even like from a business, you know, I love my business life, but I'm just talking about like life. Like more done as in like, and just like, it's better.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  How do you consciously and actively practice gratitude? Is it like a journal or is it every morning?

• 2:50Speaker 01

  It's a conversation with myself, pretty consistent. It's, I think I'm so deep on this. Like, I don't need a journal, I don't need an app, I don't need a guru, I don't need a podcast to listen to to get me there. I think I've been on it for so long. In fact, it's a little weird. You catch me at a good time. I've become very introspective. I'm going to go pretty deep with you on this one. Both my parents lost a parent very, very early on. My mom lost her mom at five, my dad lost his dad at 15. Recently, I've realized how big of a currency and a backdrop that was to my own childhood. I was pretty petrified to lose one of my parents. Like, for real. Like, you guys are young enough that like you probably can remember your childhood pretty solidly.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Like, I do not believe you or Mike, that who's my dude here in the background. I don't think the three of you or the millions that are listening over the next decade. I don't think most people thought about their parents dying suddenly multiple times a week in their youth. I did. So I think kind of my curse of that became my gift. By the time I got to 18, I was so grateful that it didn't happen. It's almost like I've been playing with house money since. This has been a really new revelation for me that I've been thinking through. So I think that, I think as I got older and even as a kid, I just knew that I had talent. As a kid, I knew I was talented. I knew I could make people like me. I knew people naturally liked me, so I didn't even have to try to make them like me, even if I did.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  I knew that I cared about people. I knew I was good at stuff like. Hand eye coordination. I always focused on positives. Like, I was good at hand eye coordination, but I wasn't big and strong. But I was like, I'm great at hand eye coordination, not crying about not being big and strong, but being like, I have better hand eye coordination. Like, I always focused on the positive. It was ingrained in me. I was parented that way. I think my mom has a huge impact on who I am to the, I give her pretty much all the flowers. That's why it's easy for me to talk about myself. I don't think, on the record, I don't think I, every time you're like, Gary Vee, you're the best. I'm like, Tamara and Sasha are the best. They're the best. They made me. I'm the product. V Friends, when I build it, I'll take those accolades. I built it. You know, but me? It's, so.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I, it's so deep, bro. I think like, whatever the monks and the Buddhists and like, the deepest on anything, you know, like athletes, like, how do you move like that? They've been doing it their whole, I've been grateful my whole life.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  It's interesting that it's the gratitude. One thing that's really admirable, admirable about you is your ability to be so productive and work so hard. I'm curious, for those that want to be successful, what's something that they should be willing to sacrifice that they don't?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Sacrifice. Um, you know, the cliche answers, people think the answers go into like, time with your friends and family. It's real. But that's not kind of like what naturally I felt when you said that. I think, I'm gonna say something interesting.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  I think if you're in your perfect pocket, you're not sacrificing. I actually think you're being selfish.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  I think what people need to do is find their selfish place.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  What about for people, though, who want a balance in addition to, let's say, financial success?

• 6:03Speaker 01

  It depends on what financial success is and what balance is. This is like, why these are important combos. Like, real talk.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  What's financial success? Do you, right this minute, what do you personally believe financial success is to the average man and woman? How much do they make in a year?

• 6:21Speaker 02

  I would say for the average person, probably gotta be about 250 grand a year, and that would be enough to...

• 6:27Speaker 01

  What do you think yours is? For you right now, at this point in your life, at this point?

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Gosh, I think it's an everlasting treadmill. I don't think it's...

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Of course it is. That's why I notice I'm asking you the question.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  For you personally, right this minute, what is financial success in a year?

• 6:42Graham Stephan?

  A dollar amount?

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Yes, right now, at this point in your, like, right this second.

• 6:46Graham Stephan?

  Graham doesn't want to say this because he'll feel like he'll get scrutinized.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  By the way, by the way, by the way, before, by the way, that's fair, and I want, I want everybody to hear this. Whatever you say, it's not too big or too small. This is where we need to give grace to each other, all of us. It's just your subjective feelings at this moment.

• 7:01Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  There's nothing, if he says 14 million, what's gonna happen in the comments? Like, he's a piece of, because like, the average American.

• 7:09Graham Stephan?

  Detached from reality.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  That's not fair to him. That's where he's at right now. By the way, let me give you all the preview. He will go up and down, even though he has the capacity to make more. Things change. I'm just asking you in this moment.

• 7:23Graham Stephan?

  Eventually, that'd be awesome, 10 million?

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Great. So, to me, here's the question.

• 7:28Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Next. What do you think the work-life balance is on, for you, balance on 10 million a year?

• 7:34Graham Stephan?

  It would probably be a constant 24-hour-a-day, seven-day-a-week thought-struggle for me to just focus on one thing and do that non-stop.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Do you want to do that?

• 7:46Graham Stephan?

  No.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Okay, that's it. Like, this, when you start breaking down these questions, like, when you say 10, to me, the next question is like, why not 15?

• 7:55Graham Stephan?

  It just seems like an even round number.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  I appreciate it, I think that's right. The other question becomes like, what is balance? Like, you're married?

• 8:02Graham Stephan?

  Yes.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Are you?

• 8:04Graham Stephan?

  No.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Right. Let's just go there, that's perfect, that worked out super well for me. Shit's different. You remember not being married?

• 8:11Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Easier to put more into work?

• 8:13Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Real, then child, then parent sick, then parent not sick, then burnt out after a while of something and just like, it's not as fun as it was for six years. Like, when I did Wine Library TV every day for five days a week, I loved it all the way until I didn't like it at all.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  You guys like this right now?

• 8:31Graham Stephan?

  Love it.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  I'll tell you, there's going to be a day where you don't. For real, that's okay.

• 8:37Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  That's just human. So, you know, to answer the question, brother, like, you know, how does one balance it by being the judge and jury of themselves?

• 8:51Speaker 01

  Like, whose standard of work-life balance am I supposed to achieve to? Or you, or you? Whose definition of financial success am I supposed to? What is it? Is it your 250K for the average? Or is it the American average of 60, 70, 80K? 250K makes a lot of sense in San Francisco and New York and LA. 250K in rural middle of nowhere Tennessee, you're a trillionaire.

• 9:16Graham Stephan?

  What does your current work-life balance look like?

• 9:19Speaker 01

  My normal Monday to Friday is 8:30 to 10:00 PM.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  That's my normal. Now, there's times when my son has basketball practice and 7:30 I'll go into that world where Knicks are in the playoffs right now. I'll go to a Knicks game. But my normal right now is probably nine to nine, somewhere in the range of 12 hours a day.

• 9:42Graham Stephan?

  And when was the last time you felt burnt out? And how did you overcome that?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  I define subjectively burnt out as sustained unhappiness doing the thing. And my definition of sustained is probably 100 days in a row. I've not had that. The, here, here are my moments of change. In my late twenties or early thirties, I had spent working 150 hours a week building a huge business for my father and was getting paid nothing. In my late, from 22 to 28, six years straight, 365 days a year. In my late twenties, I started to feel anxiety that I was in a bad spot because I had no money. And I was built a huge business and I had nothing to show for it.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  I was getting married at the time and I was like, oh my God, I'm poor. I was making 50,000 dollars a year. So.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  And not the 50,000 support, but 50,000 when you actually work 150 hours a week is real bad. You know, it's different if you're working 40 hours, at least you're getting the bowling team and the weekends and your kids, right?

• 10:47Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, your wage, your hourly income.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So I was in a real tough spot. Um, that went from like 28 to like 30 to a really interesting time for me and my dad. We had a lot of friction. I was reconciling my feelings. He was reconciling his. And it finally hit an inflection point where I was like, I gotta leave this business and start my own thing. And my brother was graduating college. I started this, Banner Media. So, uh, I would say the last time I really felt burnt out macro was the last years of Wine Library, because I felt like the trade wasn't fair. And I don't blame my dad. Actually, it's immigrant business. He's like, you're gonna inherit it. It's gonna be yours. So it was like all those immigrant, you know?

• 11:29Speaker 01

  The other time I felt burnt out was with Wine Library TV, the last 50 episodes. I was like, I'm done with this. I've done this. It's five days a week, five years. I'm done. Um, Daily V put me on the map in a lot of ways for a lot of people.

• 11:43Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, that's what I remember.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  You know, even now, when the guys want to film me, I'm like so used to not being filmed. It feels weird. Whereas for the first year after Daily V, it felt weird to not be filmed. There's that. Um, so projects feel like burnt out, but I don't feel burnt out. I don't feel like soulless or sad.

• 12:02Graham Stephan?

  It sounds like though you feel burnt out when you've, when you've accomplished everything that you've set out for.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'll be honest with you. I really don't view it as burnt out. I view it as like, ready to move on.

• 12:13Graham Stephan?

  Okay.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  I think words have gotten weird. Like, I think a lot of people use to like weaponize the word anxiety when they're inconvenienced.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  I think we've created words like imposter syndrome to make the word insecure.

• 12:27Graham Stephan?

  Or ick.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  So I really genuinely do not associate with burnout. I think there's been moments where I was done.

• 12:36Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  To your point.

• 12:37Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  And I, but I don't like burnout to me seems like an, I define burnout as emotionally struggling.

• 12:44Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  I like how you break down what a word actually means. It reminds me of like Jordan Peterson or reminds me of like Alex Hormozi.

• 12:52Graham Stephan?

  Very much.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  If you know who that is, I had him on the podcast recently. He said that he doesn't like to use words like burnout because he prefers to use words in observable reality.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  And that's what you did. You broke down burnout to be like, I consider it as sustained, you know, displeasure with something for a hundred days.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  I think words, I think that's interesting insight. I think words have been weaponized, words have been.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  It's too ambiguous. It's subjective, but if you break it down into something that's observable, then it actually is related.

• 13:19Graham Stephan?

  Speaking of words, a popular one lately is quiet quitting.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:23Graham Stephan?

  Do you feel like this is a way for people to support a healthy boundary? Or is it something that people use as an excuse for just?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Both.

• 13:32Graham Stephan?

  Not working hard.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, both. Or just like cheating the system. Like people will cheat the system.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  If they can, if they don't respect or like the system. Like, I don't worry about people vayner that way because I think we like them too much and do the right things. And I know people do, but it's not a sustained issue for us. But I think another company that doesn't give a about their employees have it at scale because what you put in is what you get out.

• 13:57Graham Stephan?

  So do you think it's a problem with the employer in those situations, not the employee?

• 14:01Speaker 01

  I do. I'm going to say it again.

• 14:02Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  We have 2,000 plus employees here at VaynerX. There are definitely dozens and dozens that are doing all sorts of that I would not be happy about because we no longer work in a five day, like you can, like, right? But I'm not crippled by it because it's inconceivable that it's at scale because we're too productive as an organization and I just know what we do for our employees, which is, we're not Mother Teresa, but we like, we have, we have humanity. I think, I think if corporations had more humanity, they would win.

• 14:28Graham Stephan?

  What's a way that you would recommend they incentivize their employees to work harder?

• 14:32Speaker 01

  By reverse engineering them individually.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Some employees want more money.

• 15:08Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Some people want a new title. Some people want more work-life balance. Some people want to work in a different department. We're in constant I, and I don't like saying I, but I'm going to say it because I dictate this from the top. I, more than even my direct reports, and there are direct reports. And now, as I keep putting more pressure on this, we do a pretty darn good job of being open for business for the other person, because the more we make it awesome, the more they'll stay, the more retention I have, the faster I think we can go. I think businesses, like sports, I think speed matters.

• 15:42Graham Stephan?

  And how do you do that at scale with so many employees?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Effort. Effort. Like, it's just something I give a about.

• 15:49Graham Stephan?

  And for people.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  You know, like, you know, you'll find this so interesting. It's an interest, the reason I'm double clicking is I want to bring value to the audience. I felt I left it kind of high, but, but I'll tell you why I left it high and why I'm going to go low now.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  If you care about something, you will do it.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  The end. Like, the actual answer to your question is effort.

• 16:09Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Underneath that, allocating time in my schedule for one-on-ones, using the people that have been here for a decade and deploying them on places I can't get to that I know needs humans. You know what I mean? Like, it takes up my mind time.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  This may actually, actually, this is really cool. You'll find this interesting because of what you guys do, and I have a sense of how you're paying attention. Both of you know, I've been less Gary Vee'd out the last 12 to 18 months in the personal brand game. There's other people that have popped, like, I've been operating. This is actually me now deciding I'm going back into effort of Gary Vee. So I guarantee people will feel me around more and know more of me and feel like Gary Vee's everywhere, more in 26 than in 24 and 25, because in 24 and 25, I operated VaynerX and V Friends.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. What do you think about potential overexposure? Does that ever bother you in terms?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  It's not achievable.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  You don't think it's possible?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Who's overexposed?

• 17:09Speaker 02

  I think it depends. I think if, if you have a story and you go on 30 podcasts.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Generally speaking, each performance of, you know, each unique podcast will start to dwindle because the story gets redundant. People have heard it enough times.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  You're, you're looking at it from the wrong angle. You're in the game of knowing what's going on right now.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  To you, it'll become redundant.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Right, but to the, the guest on the show, it's still new eyeballs.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Not, the overlaps are there. And by the way, here's how it's going to play out. Okay, by the way, back to me. I'm going to be out and about. Okay, Gary Vee's showing up on all the same. Let me hear, I haven't heard, ironically, some people like, I haven't heard, probably talking about the same. But let me see, oh, some new. Then they go and listen to a sec, a week later, I'm on something else. They're like, let me listen again, uh, pretty similar to what he just did with coffee. You know, like, and then the third time I show up in the results of like the new podcast, they're like, I'm not going to listen. They're not, I'm not getting overexposed. They've gotten their fulfillment.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  But every one of these shows has different audiences. Not to mention, and this will resonate for you guys, because you had a journey of consuming my content. We also like the greatest hits from our favorite artists.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Like Elton John and the Rolling Stones and Billy Joel are still playing the same.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  But there is something to be said about people or bands or brands who only make an appearance every now and then. And it's such a big, special occasion, like My Chemical Romance, taken 20 years off and then coming back once. And that's like a big hit event.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Why are we so addicted to or?

• 18:47Speaker 01

  What about and? You're right.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  And people don't get overexposed and have consistent awareness in Bill Brand. Listen, I've been one of the most prolific public figures in social media, which is the medium of dominance today.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  An ungodly amount of people know me, I'm stunned every time I'm outside. A much bigger group does not.

• 19:06Graham Stephan?

  It's interesting from our perspective because I've started posting less, but the less I post now, the more views each video gets.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Of course, because it's sitting there longer.

• 19:14Graham Stephan?

  Correct, but it's also a bit more special when it's like, once a week or once every other week, there's a video.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  You're choosing ideology.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  I actually disagree with that. I think that it-

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Your net awareness is down.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  You've increased your barrier to post a video. Like, it needs to be a more pressing event. It needs to be a bigger deal. And so for that, it probably raises the average.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  But by the way, you're allowed. And by the way, you may want less people to know, but be impacted deeper. But by-

• 19:39Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  But people are like, Gary, get more views. I'm like, no.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Like, but what about, you know, gross views for the month?

• 19:47Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  So, by the way, everyone's allowed. You're allowed to be Marlon Brando, and you're allowed to be Arnold Schwarzenegger, like, you know, like, or whoever's- And that was the 80s of like, being in every movie, right? Like, I don't know, Kevin Hart.

• 20:01Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  You're allowed to be Kevin Hart, and you're allowed to be, you know, a once in a blue moon. They're both, they both work. My answer is and. And but, I want everyone to hear this. Right now, they're like, oh yeah, I'm more that. I'm more like you, not like Gary. But then, but what about, you're allowed to be both versions? By the way, I'm just living through me being less content out there. Even though my less is like, quite a bit. By the way, I may wake up in a year and get into the concept of one post a month. And do that for a year. And then be like, that was awesome. And be like, that, I'm back to volume at scale. The restrictions we put on ourselves is fascinating to me. So like, for me, when I hear them, like, that's awesome. Like, enjoy this chapter. And you'll make decisions if like, this works for you, it doesn't.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  And you're also allowed to change your strategy.

• 20:48Graham Stephan?

  Now, for people who are on that entrepreneurial journey, how do you know, or how do you dictate when to push through something versus when to quit and try something different? Now, one of the things that Gary Vaynerchuk really reinforced in this episode is that sometimes you just have to go for it. You have to stop overthinking things. And when it comes to starting a business, the first thing you have to do is take action. And that starts with making sure it's set up properly.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  One of the questions we get asked all the time is how do you actually start a business? Like, do I need an S corp? Do I need an LLC? And where do I even go to create one of those? Well, I can honestly say I've personally used the sponsor of today's video, Busy, and the process of creating a business couldn't have been any easier. Setting up my LLC took less than 10 minutes, which is just absolutely crazy. And it felt great knowing everything was being filed properly and professionally.

• 21:34Graham Stephan?

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• 21:51Speaker 02

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• 22:10Graham Stephan?

  How do you know, or how do you dictate, when to push through something versus when to quit and try something different?

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Only God knows. The amount of people that quit a week before it was all going to turn is actually quite high in the scheme of the last 100 years. The amount of people that right now continue to do something that is based in nothing but delusion is even higher.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  My answer to this question is, do you like it?

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  And how long can you hold your breath? Those are my two questions to you. If this, if we were three brothers and we're just jamming on this for real, not on a podcast, I'd be like, do you like it? How long can you hold your breath?

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  That's it. That's the answer to that question.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  It's interesting. So for this podcast, obviously, for any guests we have on the show, we do copious amounts of research. And so I feel like I've listened to you for I don't even know how many tens of hours in the past, you know, couple of weeks.

• 23:04Graham Stephan?

  All right, easily.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  But I'm curious, because you seem different now than in the previous things I've seen you on. Like, you seem way more introspective, way more like, subjective, like you've been more meta, like...

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Do you know why?

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Why?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Because your guys' energy is that. I'm chameleon.

• 23:22Graham Stephan?

  I feel like you've been on some pretty relaxed podcasts, though. Like you did one recently with a with a veteran that I saw that I felt was pretty laid back.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know,

• 23:33Speaker 01

  I would say that what I'm feeling right now while I'm doing this is I really respect your audience and I'm pushing myself to bring as much value as I can, which is what I do in every setting. Intuitively, in a relaxed podcast, sometimes I think energy is the highest value. I'm going on my intuition on what I think could bring the most value. And I think, and I also, to your point, I think life is like day to day as well. Like, I'm also fresh. I don't know what podcast you're talking about and like when they came out, when they were filmed, but because I haven't been putting on so many podcasts so often for so long lately, I do feel a little fresh. And when I'm fresh, it takes me down new paths, too.

• 24:14Graham Stephan?

  That's interesting. I think when it comes to social media, too, I think people really value authenticity.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:19Graham Stephan?

  Do you feel like now authenticity is almost becoming like a strategy where people are really like over emphasizing authenticity?

• 24:26Speaker 01

  I have good news. Like, you can go back to interviews I did in 2007 on YouTube, and that was the buzzword of 2007 social.

• 24:31Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  I think authenticity's always worked. I think people try to force it all the time, which is the complete opposite of it. And I think there's the way to really judge authenticity is longevity.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  I think the people that try to fake authenticity do not have very long plays.

• 24:52Graham Stephan?

  How much is there out there that you choose publicly not to talk about? Because you're pretty open about quite a few things. And how do you dictate what you are public about versus what you're not?

• 25:04Speaker 01

  My private life is something I don't talk about. I always thought that I was too important because I kind of had a sense early on that I was gonna, it was gonna work. I just knew, you know, when you know?

• 25:16Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  I just knew. So I was like, let me be thoughtful about this. Like, if I get like actually, this is like 2006, I'm like, if I get actually famous, like, what, what is the worry about that? It's like, oh, privacy is valuable. Plus, actually, but actually, you know what? That might even be, that might not even be fully authentic. I am inherently private.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Which is wild, right? But like, yeah, I mean, I think talking about your passions or ideas or business, that feels like public domain. But like, my children or my relationships or, I don't know, like, you know?

• 25:48Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  So I talk about my parents a lot because it's a framework to like stuff, but it's not like I'm telling you like what's going on in their lives or like, we're like, I'm not in reality TV mode. So that was conscious. Things like politics or religion or things that are a little spicier, I don't talk about them because it's, because I don't, I don't, I don't love to contribute from a place of opinion. I like to come from a place of observation. So if I talk about politics, my observation is that the opposite sides of every issue weaponize fear to get people into a frenzy and that's it. That's my observation. It's like uncomfortably boring.

• 26:24Graham Stephan?

  Do you recommend other influencers keep certain parts of their lives private as well?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  I think people have to reverse engineer their truth. You know? Like, I don't, I don't have real hunger for fame. If somebody has intrinsic, deep value and hunger for fame, giving the world your personal life is one of the clear paths. I don't really want to deploy my judgment on someone else's journey.

• 26:50Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  So, no, I don't, I recommend people being self-aware.

• 26:55Graham Stephan?

  What are some of the?

• 26:55Speaker 01

  I recommend, I recommend people being self-aware and I recommend, I just said this earlier and I, so are you picking up on this? I also recommend people having the ability to change their mind. Like, right now, if you're listening right now, I'd be like, yeah, man, I am whoring out my children too much and I'm starting to see the negatives of that. Like, my four-year-old daughter was like stopped in a park by somebody the other day because I'm doing that. Well, you're allowed to change. People struggle with change. Like that, like this, a lot of the genre of this convo right now, I want people to have the strength to change their mind.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Because that really is liberating to allow you to do a lot of

• 27:33Graham Stephan?

  What do you think holds people back from change? Is it fear?

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Of course, of judgment from other human beings. Insecurity is the poison that navigates our world.

• 27:43Graham Stephan?

  What are you insecure about?

• 27:45Speaker 01

  In my youth, I was insecure about girls rejecting me. Like

• 27:48Graham Stephan?

  Did you get rejected or something?

• 27:50Speaker 01

  No, because back to not doing shit. Like, I didn't ask out a lot of girls in high school and college that I wanted to because I was fearful of the rejection. In a world where like, I was like, pretty charismatic and had my game together in a way like, like, you know, as you get older, especially because I became a public figure. The amount of, like, when I first started happening, the amount of girls that reached out to me like, why didn't you ask me out? And like, and like, I could be grounded in the fact that I don't think they were saying that now, because this was even happening, like, not the Gary V you know now. Like, even when the wine thing happened, which meant nothing to nobody. It was just like reconnecting, like, so that was a part of my life that I, um, that was very clear in fear. I feared most basic adolescence things. I feared to ride a bike. I didn't want to skin my knee. I feared swimming. I didn't want to drown.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  I feared those two things very heavily, but by comparing, like, I was a late bloomer in a lot of ways that way.

• 28:40Graham Stephan?

  But, but what are you insecure about now?

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Not much. Um, what am I insecure about now? Deep, like, like, and this will probably go into territory of things I don't want to share, but like, let me say it this way.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  I'll say it in a way that I feel comfortable because I want to answer it and not not answer it. The number one thing I probably fear now is I want to be as good of a father as I possibly can.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  And so that's very top of my list. Like, am I achieving that? And I'm scared about things that I haven't been able to get to the place where I wanted to.

• 29:14Graham Stephan?

  What do you think could hold you back from that?

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Being able, the thing that I've always struggled with historically, it's a wild one. My greatest weakness, my kryptonite, in a world where I was luck of the draw, gifted with a ton of circumstances and a lot of other things, and then put in a lot of work and feel very comfortable in that, was I'm not candorous with people I love. Like, my lack of candor, it blows people away, like

• 29:43Graham Stephan?

  That doesn't make sense.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  I'll explain. I don't give a what you two think of me. I do not care what anyone who's listening cares. I care very deeply. I care more of what Mike thinks about me than you guys and anybody listening. And he's a young employee in my life. And I care more about what Kalen, who's worked here for 13 years, feels than Mike. But you start getting into my children and my parents. The more I love you, the more I care about how you feel. And I was raised by a mother who was not candorous, who had such gift of gab and charisma and personality too, that she could just get to the result without making conflict. Got it? I also was raised by a father who was ridiculous with conflict and looked for conflict at every point.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  So I had two very opposite parents. And I was formed in a way where I viewed candor as creating fear for someone. Because I've always had leverage. For most of my life, I have been the financial and emotional leader of my life. Meaning me and everybody around me. So when you have leverage and you're deploying candor, there's a lot that comes with that. When you're telling an employee that, "Bro, you're not good at your job." My brain goes into, "Mike walks out of here and starts to go to LinkedIn, starts to cry, starts to go do drugs, and I'm gonna lose my job." I just created fear. I had to have a very tough chapter in my life about five to seven years ago when I realized this was my kryptonite. And what I was actually doing was creating fear

• 31:13Speaker 01

  because people would have to get fired when you're running a company. I would have to break up with girls if I didn't like them anymore. And what people started to understand was they didn't know where they stood with me. And that became the ultimate fear. Very humbling moment in my mid 40s.

• 31:27Graham Stephan?

  And how did you navigate that? And how do you break into just being open and honest with people without creating fear?

• 31:33Speaker 01

  All of our vulnerabilities are things we can't see. I'm really fortunate with self-awareness and paying attention, but I couldn't see the candor thing. Once it became obvious to me, both with my employees and some of my personal relationships, I was like, "Oh." And I'm talking like, looking myself in the mirror, brushing my teeth, and looking at my eyes and being like, "Dude." My inner dialogue is really cool. Like, me and me are good. You know? I really just went there. I was like, "Dude."

• 32:07Speaker 01

  You suck at this, man. Like, and this is gonna ruin your life.

• 32:10Graham Stephan?

  Was there a specific moment that was like a wake up call?

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a combination, you know, not to go in too far, but it was a combination of things going on at work, which I'm comfortable with, which was, I love my employees, super heavy.

• 32:19Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  There was just enough employees, and I knew why they were mad at me, that were running around the world being like, all I care about is anyone who knows me to think I'm a decent man. Having employees that were running around the world being like, Gary Vee, was like, this is wrong. The only ones that were saying Gary Vee were people that were consistently underperforming, but I didn't have the ability to over communicate it and then would pull the rug from underneath them. It was black and white.

• 32:42Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  On my subjective opinion, maybe they were performing and I was wrong, but that's, you know, that's the judge and jury when you own a business, right?

• 32:48Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  I was like, that sucks, I gotta fix that. And then things in my personal life which I'm less comfortable sharing, but ultimately I was like, look, I've gotta fix this. And it's hard, bro. Like, you're in pretty good shape. I don't know if you've always been or not. I'm in better shape than I've been historically. Like, like, it's work.

• 33:07Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Like, I was in Toronto for a board meeting last night. I landed last night at midnight. I was in the gym at 6:00 AM this morning, in the gym, I landed at midnight. In the gym, not working out, having one-on-one basketball coach practice, because my son's gotten so good at basketball, I think he's about to beat me one-on-one. And I'm, and I'm so scared of that, that I literally had one-on-one basketball practice this morning. And you have to put in the work to be able to be better. And so I had a, and I continue to practice candor right now, and I'm still a five out of 10, but that jump from one to five has closed a lot of wounds and vulnerabilities.

• 33:46Graham Stephan?

  Who do you go to for advice?

• 33:48Speaker 01

  The truth is no one, which is a great gift and a great weakness.

• 33:55Speaker 00

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• 34:25Speaker 04

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• 34:37Speaker 01

  Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing. What I do when I'm in a place of thought is go into more of a cocoon. I'm actually talking and advising and jamming. Like if we were like we hung out, if we like knew each other and we'd have dinner, we'd have these kind of dinners. Different because we're a podcast, but it would be this.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  I'm always thinking and philosophizing and strategizing and vulnerable and like I'm living and I'm taking it like it's almost like advice is happening all the time. But when it's in the moment that you're asking, where I'm like really thinking through something, I weirdly do the reverse. I think most people don't advise every day. And then when they have a problem, go for advice. I'm the reverse. I'm like constantly like advising. But then when something's really important, I go into cocoon. And I'm in my own and I think it through.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  How do people improve self-awareness? It seems like, like you were saying, the ability to be dynamic and change your opinion, change your mind, change your beliefs is one of the best ways that you can improve your overall life.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  That is self-awareness is required for that.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  I think therapy is good. I think going to therapy and having another human being who's professionally trained, try to throw some things at you really is good. I think what I've done is I think, I think there's a very big relationship between humility and self-awareness. So I have a very big thesis that humans are not trickable. And then I have another thesis that humans are the most trickable. So let me break it down. My belief is that 99% of people are uncomfortably trickable. And that's how the world works.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 36:17Speaker 01

  I think most people are so insecure, so short-term, so selfish, that if you just feed them what they need, that you can basically manipulate them into anything you want to do. It's what politics does. It's what businesses do. It's like what life is. I hate that. What I like is trying to win with the 1% that are the reverse. And those people are completely the reverse. They're completely not trickable.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  And I think when you understand that, what I just said, or if you believe it, and whether my percentages are right, maybe it's 80/20, but like the concept that the masses are in this one place, and then there's a different group of people that you actually want to be friends with, that you actually want to know, that it's the actual thing. That if you think that, you'll constantly be in a place of humility and self, you know, analyzation, and you're humble, you're listening, and I think there's something there in a real way to what you're asking. I think surrounding yourself with the right type of people has the potential to create a lot of self-awareness.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  And what would be the main qualities of someone who is trickable versus non-trickable? Like, is it an intelligence thing?

• 37:31Speaker 01

  I believe it's a security thing. I think it's confidence versus insecurity. I have come to, I turned 50 in November, fun number, you know, like, how old are you guys?

• 37:43Speaker 02

  26. I'm 35.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, even at, you know, you're a straight baby, but even at 35, right? At 35, you know, back to like, my life, you think about 10 mil, like, I think this will be very exciting for you, and I hope it's very exciting, more importantly, to the audience. At 34, I made $67,000 for the year.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  That's why I believe it. That's why you hear so much Gary Vee about be patient.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  What'd you make at 35?

• 38:08Speaker 01

  35 was when I started doing this, and I just signed a book deal, so I got 100K for Crush It. I mean, like, probably 240?

• 38:16Speaker 02

  Do you think that you needed to have the actual accolades to play off of that confidence, or did the confidence exist from the beginning to the end?

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Beginning to the end. DNA, parenting, circumstance.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  You never questioned your aptitude. You never questioned-

• 38:32Speaker 01

  In business, no.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Like I said earlier, what's, what's a child's childhood? Does the opposite sex like you? That was a third of my whole life, so I had plenty of insecurity there. Uh, sports, right? I was good early on because I have crazy hand-eye coordination. I got worse as we got into middle school because speed, height, power, strength mattered. So that was off. School, big one, right? Kids' self-esteem in school, right? Good grades, smart, bad grades dumb, especially if you're almost 50. You grew up in a different world. I'm 25 years ahead of you that way, 24, 3 years ahead of you. Like, teachers told me I was an idiot, that I was gonna be a loser. Like, these are grownups telling you to your face, you're gonna be a loser. So I had plenty of things that could be insecurities.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  I just had the most important things right. One, I had a mother who parented me in a way that made me believe in myself. But she didn't do what modern parents are doing, which is create a delusion. She said, "You're a good dude. You're good, you're, you've got strengths." But when I had shortcomings, I had ramifications, I had consequences.

• 39:42Graham Stephan?

  How do you try to instill those same qualities in your children?

• 39:45Speaker 01

  By doing that, by telling them the truth, by, by cheering for things that are good, like, are they nice people? Are they not entitled? But I can't do one of the most important parts, environment. I did grow up in lower-middle-class neighborhoods in Jersey. They are growing up very wealthy.

• 40:04Graham Stephan?

  How do you think that's gonna change their perspective? Or the fear that they can't live up to what you've accomplished?

• 40:09Speaker 01

  That part I feel good about because I create almost no, they, they may have their own version, but uh, one of the great mistakes a parent that is successful makes is ask their child to live up to that. I do not have, the problem is there's too many people that are successful that are actually insecure. So then they ask their children to do things because they care what other people think about their children's accomplishments. On the record, on this podcast, I do not give a about what people think about what my children do for a living. So my children will have the luxury of not having a father that wants them to do what? Live up to my legacy? Me, I'm their dad. I just want them to be happy the way I'm happy. And whether they're entrepreneurs like me and what makes them happy is to build? Mazel tov.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  If they, if what makes them happy is to give away all the money I made? Cause that somehow makes them feel better for being rich kids. And that's what they see the world as, as long as they're happy. Not that that's some sort of poisonous up thing. Like, I just am very focused on, do they enjoy their life? Are they productive? But like, environment can't be fake.

• 41:11Graham Stephan?

  How close is happiness linked to being productive? Because we had Grant Kerdona on about a year ago. And with his daughter in the room, he said, he doesn't want her to be happy. He wants her to be productive. And if she's productive, by default, she's going to be happy.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Look, I think every parent is allowed to see the world how they want. I'm also a buyer of productivity. But productive is defined by different metrics. What is productive? Is productive making a million dollars a year? 10? 100? Is productivity knowing that you were born into luxury? And thus you give your life's work to give back to humanity? And everything in between? I don't know. But yes, I do not think waking up in the morning and have nothing to do leads to anything but bad.

• 41:58Graham Stephan?

  Right.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  But what one defines as productive, I think is different for every human.

• 42:03Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  For example, I have a lot of ways to maximize for a lot more wealth than I have. That's just not where I'm at. I feel like I'm being more productive by leaving good deposits, by spending a lot of time on Gary Vee. And now V friends, my Pokemon Sesame Street thing feels like I'm going to be able to do both. I can be selfish and selfless. I can build one of the biggest intellectual properties of all time, which is very, very valuable. But I also can get these characters so popular that I can start getting to kids younger and instilling good virtues into them.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  What's more productive?

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  My income statement this year or the impact I made on alpha dudes not being complete dick faces? What's more productive? How much money I made or the fact that I've gained muscle mass? And that injury I got in my dad's liquor store with my left glute? Now that I've been able to actually get my mind muscle right? And I'm fixing it and I have better life quality? Which, who decides productivity?

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  If you make forty three million dollars a year, but your human behaviors of alcohol and eating and gluttony and all this stuff leads to you dying two years later? Were you productive in the forty third year? Where you made all that money? Or because you're not productive at forty five because you're dead? So I think the definition of, but I agree with the macro thesis.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  I do believe in productivity. I think who gets to define productivity? My answer is you get to define it and then you get to change your mind.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  If you want to go from twenty to thirty and eat Doritos all day and build an empire? Good. And then thirty to forty is pure love and enjoying those? Knock yourself out. But don't do it for someone else. And don't do it for the cheering. Because if you're doing it for the cheering, when they're booing, you're dead.

• 43:48Graham Stephan?

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• 44:33Graham Stephan?

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• 45:17Graham Stephan?

  Thank you so much, Kinsta, for sponsoring this episode. Fun story, but when Jack and I started the Ice Coffee Hour, we had to figure out everything ourselves, from guest selection, editing, social media strategies, you name it. Every day had a new set of challenges. That's why if you're starting a business or you run a business, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And that's why today's sponsor is so relevant. Shopify.

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• 45:53Graham Stephan?

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• 46:22Graham Stephan?

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• 46:41Graham Stephan?

  One of the things I really admired about you is that you've been able to almost see and predict the future of what's going to be happening when it comes to social media. And I remember you saying in like 2019 or 2018 about TikTok.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:53Graham Stephan?

  And I remember starting to post on TikTok because of what you were saying.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 46:57Graham Stephan?

  Back in like 2018 or 2019, I think my first TikTok. What are you seeing now as the future landscape for business or for marketing or for getting yourself out there? I know you've mentioned TikTok Shop, live shops.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love shop, I'm obsessed with live shopping. If you're listening right now and you sell stuff, you need to go to whatnot and TikTok shop and start selling. ASAP. The QVC application of social media is here in the West. It's been going on in China for 10 years. Do it. Do it. The acceleration of organic is also on my mind. You, I, I could not speak more to my belief of non-overexposure, volume creative for relevance for different consumers. For example, you have Gary Vee on now. Your clip with me and you on your social, if the next post is you with a female entrepreneur in her 80s, that's going to hit different audiences.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Different subjects we're going to talk about in this podcast. So relevance at scale across all seven platforms, Facebook, proper, I'm obsessed. If you want to go very nerdy, are you guys posting a lot on Facebook regular?

• 48:04Graham Stephan?

  We've done it in the past.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  So that was the perfect answer.

• 48:08Graham Stephan?

  Yes.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  You guys are about to be happy with Gary V again.

• 48:10Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  You're going to walk the out of here, look me in the face and really understand this? This podcast will explode if you get serious about posting multiple times a day on Facebook.

• 48:20Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Organic. Facebook organic is on fire.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Are you talking clips, like four to 12 minute clips? Are you talking about full-length podcasts? Are you talking about shorts?

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  Vertical.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:29Graham Stephan?

  I'll be honest with you. What happened to our Facebook was that it got completely demonetized and it's been shut down basically for a year and a half because they deemed it as reused content, even though it was our original content and reaching anybody at Facebook.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Their support is abysmal.

• 48:42Graham Stephan?

  Impossible.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Start another page.

• 48:44Graham Stephan?

  Oh, we had 200 something, 300,000 followers on it.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Who gives a?

• 48:48Graham Stephan?

  Okay.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  That would be like saying, I had $200,000, I went to Atlantic City, I lost all the money. So I'm not going to make more money.

• 48:53Graham Stephan?

  We did that.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Hold on.

• 48:54Graham Stephan?

  We did this with our page, but they shut that one, the new one down too, for reused content. It was something on our page. We've, we've, I don't want to go too much into it.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, we don't have to waste, no, this is actually going to be valuable to a lot of people.

• 49:07Graham Stephan?

  Cool.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Start a brand new one with a separate email. Cause maybe it was some technicality. If that gets shut down, then it may be something bigger, but.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Just because you had 200,000, first of all, followers don't matter anymore. You know that, right?

• 49:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Do you?

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Like, literally.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  I think they matter a little bit.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  They do. You're right.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  But not as much as they did. Back in the day, it was. Oh, yeah, true.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  By the way, and it is way on its way to being to a place where it's completely not going to matter. We are fully no longer in social media. We are fully in interest media. We're fully in interest media. Social media, the word social, who you hang out with, who you follow, like, we don't see that. Now, I actually think all the social networks should create two feeds. 100% guaranteed view rates from who you care about. Maybe limiting that. There was a great app that I was an investor in called Path years ago. That was made by Dave Moore, a great entrepreneur, who was an early Facebook employee. His app was called Path. He basically made an Instagram, he made Instagram before Instagram where it came out at the same time. I don't recall.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  But you could only have 145 or 120 or 150. I don't remember. It was based on a law of like, how many relationships can a human have? I don't remember the name, but you could only have 150 followers. It was awesome. Right? Because you would only follow who you really want to follow. I think if Facebook implemented on Instagram and Facebook and if TikTok implemented one feed that is 100 people max, but you see every post from them. And the other one, fully interest, fully interest, that that's the killer app. That's what I would build right now.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  Another thing that a lot of.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Virtual influencers, to answer your question. I think the rise of virtual influencers is going to be one of the biggest things over the next five years. I think you guys should create humans that promote your shit.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Graham and I? I don't think that's possible with two males.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  No, I understand that part, the old way. I think Graham and you should hire a company and actually make your third host a female who's not a real person, who's involved in your content, promoting your show, selling your product. I think, I think every human is going to be in the IP business. In 2006, '07, I predicted that everybody would be in social media and I got really laughed at because it was like, nobody was on it. And everybody thought it was stupid. Like, who cares if you're walking the dog? Like Twitter used to get shit on. Like, why would you tweet? Like, you're eating pizza. Who gives a, you understand? You're young and you were too young for this. Like, the concept of sharing your thoughts was like, not acceptable.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  That was relegated for people on TV. In certain programs. This is a new phenomenon, the fact that everybody thinks like, I'm out there. I believe every person's in the intellectual property business. I believe that within a decade, many people, millions of people, will own virtual people and monetize them the way that Disney monetizes Mickey Mouse.

• 51:56Graham Stephan?

  So I've seen some of these with like fake OnlyFans.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 51:59Graham Stephan?

  Where they've just created an avatar.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  That's right. And if you look at OnlyFans and, you know, the sex industry, always porn, OnlyFans, they're always, and obviously OnlyFans is now broadening out, but like, they're always ahead.

• 52:11Graham Stephan?

  Yes.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  If you've seen that, you probably also know that a year ago, those girls predominantly looked really fake. I'm going to say something to you right now. You have consumed a piece of content on Instagram that is an AI person and your eyes and brain do not know.

• 52:26Graham Stephan?

  A hundred percent, yeah.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Already.

• 52:28Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Now, you're still consuming a lot in there that is clearly fake, a lot better than it looked a year ago. And in three years, not one human's going to know the difference.

• 52:37Graham Stephan?

  I believe it. I saw on Twitter, there's a whole thread about this guy making $10,000 a month in profit from an AI character that he made that he's posting on Instagram and doing brand deals.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 52:47Graham Stephan?

  With this whole character.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  That's right. That's at scale already and hasn't even started.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  On the topic of AI, what are your top three most insane AI predictions?

• 52:56Speaker 01

  That your grandkids will marry an AI human.

• 53:02Speaker 00

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• 53:32Speaker 02

  What's your conviction level on that?

• 53:34Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  That they're gonna marry an AI?

• 53:36Speaker 01

  That your grandchild is going to marry an AI human.

• 53:40Graham Stephan?

  So this is what we've been talking about. I think people are gonna have relationships, fully AI boyfriend girlfriends. I think it's gonna be indistinguishable.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  You mean Megan Fox, right? The thing like from that movie you saw that?

• 53:50Graham Stephan?

  No.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  On Netflix? Like the AI robot?

• 53:52Speaker 02

  I'm talking about she or her or whatever it is?

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Not that one. There was a Megan Fox one that just came out. Nonetheless, they're all the same. I believe a robot that is fully AI will marry a human and vice versa for real in your lifetime at scale.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  And when you say an AI, does that mean like a physical body of a robot? So you're saying that the bodies will get so good that it will look like you and like I could?

• 54:16Speaker 01

  I don't know if you know this, but people have sex with sex dolls.

• 54:19Graham Stephan?

  What? Jack does. That that explains what that thing is in your closet, Jack.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Me? What? No. And obviously like that is like super taboo and it's 2025. And I I'm not educated on it, though I don't like, I don't judge anyone who does. But my intuition is that in 20 years, because the AI can power the robot and because of where we're going and what's going on, that that's fully.

• 54:46Graham Stephan?

  See, I've said the same thing because certain AIs, people are getting really attached to them, just like typing back and forth.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  What the? But you think online dating is? That's the same. You know that, right?

• 54:55Graham Stephan?

  But I'm thinking.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  No, no. People fall in love on text, like people on Tinder or Raya after three hours of texting back and forth fall in love. Then the physical part happens.

• 55:08Graham Stephan?

  So what is this gonna do to society if we're all just with little robots?

• 55:12Speaker 01

  The same thing that society looks like right now to a caveman. If we dug up a caveman.

• 55:17Graham Stephan?

  But do you think this is just population collapse? That people are not gonna reproduce?

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Maybe, but probably not fully because everyone thinks in awe. Just because I'm a robot doesn't mean I'm not willing to a human.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  So you think that it would be non exclusive?

• 55:32Graham Stephan?

  But if it's indistinguishable?

• 55:33Speaker 02

  Non exclusive relationships?

• 55:34Speaker 01

  What?

• 55:35Speaker 02

  You think it will be non exclusive relationships?

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Actually, it's funny. I've thought about this. I actually think AI robots may save marriages.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  Like I've been thinking about that a lot, which is like, does a couple introduce, just like real couples introduce swinging in another partner now, is it even better to introduce an AI robot? That may help whatever sexual or emotional things are going on in that relationship to become an offsetting contributor to a marriage. One could argue, this was gonna be my second one, that AI will be the reason marriage increases longevity and decreases divorce.

• 56:13Graham Stephan?

  I would almost argue that it would be the reason why people just wouldn't get married. Because you would just have this AI.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  But it might be both. Both can exist in that scenario.

• 56:22Graham Stephan?

  I feel like the word of the day is "and" and not "or."

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Sure. I would tell you that, you know, as people continue to dissect everybody, I have a feeling people will, like, I'm starting to learn, I figured it out, and I'm sure people that will, are for whatever weird reason interested in dissecting me, yes, "and" versus "or" is foundationally to why I'm happy and successful. Foundational. I actually can't see the word. I can't see the world in any other way. It's always "and." Everything to me is "maybe." Yes and no are both vulnerabilities, you know that, right?

• 56:56Graham Stephan?

  Right, I mean, things are gonna be absolutes.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  Yes and no are vulnerabilities, so if you start with something with an immediate yes or an immediate no, there's vulnerabilities. I hate "no" because it's defense and cynicism. I kinda weirdly love "yes" because it's optimism, but a lot of times it's delusional. "Maybe" is a great place to start everything.

• 57:13Graham Stephan?

  I just think this is gonna lead to complete population collapse. The people are gonna be more isolated than ever because they'll have an AI person that they could constantly be around, that's gonna be perfect for them.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  What if, what if, what if we're the most isolated now and AI actually starts the decrease of isolation because you fully feel emotionally all the way there?

• 57:31Graham Stephan?

  Sure. But I think in terms of population collapse,

• 57:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:35Graham Stephan?

  I think the government's gonna have to come in and really incentivize people to...

• 57:37Speaker 01

  But you say that because it's already happened.

• 57:39Graham Stephan?

  Well, I, I think they have to offer, I think they have to offer bonuses for people to have children.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  You're too smart, you already know that's true. That's already happened. That's what Korea is offering right now.

• 57:47Graham Stephan?

  But to an extreme, here in the United States.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  What, are we protected from everything else? Of course, that's what's gonna happen. Governments are gonna be fighting for people. Do you understand what's about to happen?

• 57:58Graham Stephan?

  Right.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Governments are gonna be paying, I'm gonna get offered ungodly amounts of money to live somewhere else, you know that, right? Governments are fighting with each other for talent.

• 58:10Graham Stephan?

  So what good will a human be, though, when we have AI that's better?

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I don't know. I don't know if it'll be better. It'll be different. It's again, an and state. Like, I don't know if it's gonna be better. But like, like, a human will, like, our brains are pretty intense, bro. You know that, right? Like, our brains are legit. Like, we're gonna do other... Like, when the tractor was invented, everyone's like, what are people gonna do? We all work on farms. We figured it out.

• 58:40Graham Stephan?

  You don't think this would be demotivating for people who could just plug into something, zone out, or be with an AI avatar or whatever, and just be perfectly content sitting in a room all day?

• 58:49Speaker 01

  I think most people are doing that now. In a different form.

• 58:52Graham Stephan?

  But to an extreme, but even more people. Like, if someone's having an average life, going to a nine-to-five, but they could stay home and just be with this avatar, plug into this system that keeps them perfect.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Let's just play it out. Why is that bad? I'm like, like, I'm not, I haven't thought it through. I'm actually just, like, framing up the banter.

• 59:11Graham Stephan?

  I would say that a large portion of society would be isolated in that regard. And you'll have a few select people who don't wanna go in that direction.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:19Graham Stephan?

  Running the system.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  I think you're looking at it way too surface level. Let's bring it up.

• 59:23Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Isolated. If you're not feeling isolated, this was the argument of online dating. You're basically just doing a more mature argument of online dating, of why online dating was creepy and weird and not gonna work.

• 59:35Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, the counter to that, though, is that you do have such a high percentage of people now, and it's like 30, not leaving their parents, not meeting people, not doing anything. Sure.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Hey, what the... Bro, my argument, you're actually, you're actually countering your argument. You know that, right?

• 59:51Graham Stephan?

  How so?

• 59:52Speaker 01

  AI's not here that we're talking about.

• 59:54Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, but we're going in that direction.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

• 59:57Graham Stephan?

  When it's here, now it's like even more.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 59:58Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  I'm arguing that this might solve the problem we're in right now.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Graham, I think, is trying to say that it might exacerbate it.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  He might be right.

• 1:00:10Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, I don't think it's to solve a problem. I think it's just gonna make it worse.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  I think you're a pessimist.

• 1:00:15Graham Stephan?

  Okay.

• 1:00:17Graham Stephan?

  And?

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  And maybe practical. And maybe cautious. And maybe not delusional. Let me say this, though. Humans are the most underestimated, underrated brand and entity in the world. Let me give you an example. Let's say this interesting conversation was in 1950 and we were talking about the atomic bomb.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Just invented, just dropped, and now we know Russia has one too. I have a funny feeling if I sat here and said it will not be used for the next 70 years, that you would have taken the counter. Humans are underestimated, bro.

• 1:00:56Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  That's what everyone who's listening, I'm telling you right now. Humans are underestimated. This AI is big. This last 10 minutes was super fun and like fun banter. We're all trying to think it through. I would say underestimating the human is a mistake. And I would say that for all the people like, what are you talking about, Gary Vee? It's now? I would say that you don't understand history. It is not now. You believe it's now because all of you have gotten sucked into listening to dumb.

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  What do you think are the main things that are holding people back right now? And if they could make these adaptations, they'd be able to unlock their full potential. You seem like a very.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Oh, I have a very good thought of this.

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Number one, two, three, four, and five is the utter lack of accountability.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  What's going on right now, brother, has nothing to do with anything other than we've been over coddled for 30 years. The end.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  You can do anything once you decide it's your fault. If you think it's your mommy and daddy's fault, that's what takes up the oxygen. You just spend all your time telling everybody about your mommy and daddy. If you think it's Trump or Biden or Putin or China, that's what you spend your time talking about.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Everybody has become remarkable at pointing fingers. It has become a global pandemic.

• 1:02:43Graham Stephan?

  Why is that?

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Over, over coddling. Lack of accountability.

• 1:02:47Graham Stephan?

  Where do you think that started?

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  Overcorrection to a lot of parents that got underloved and overcorrected too far and we lost our way.

• 1:02:57Graham Stephan?

  So you think the pendulum is swinging back to accountability?

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  No, that is my great hope.

• 1:03:01Graham Stephan?

  Okay.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  I, no, I do not feel like we're there right now, unfortunately. I feel like we're still in the very heavy midst of, I mean, we find so many things to blame on. Do you know that nobody, do you know that I didn't even know I was in Gen X my whole life? We didn't talk about generations. Like, do you have any hours? Gen Z talks about boomers?

• 1:03:22Graham Stephan?

  It's become a meme now, though.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  It's, we're just so.

• 1:03:25Speaker 02

  Is that creating just cages for ourselves?

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Thinking that we have to subscribe to a certain thing?

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Of course. But most of all, the ultimate cage is when you think somebody else is in control of your life, you're dead.

• 1:03:36Graham Stephan?

  But you know what? But people get rewarded for that online. And I feel like that's a slippery slope because when people post about themselves being a victim, they get so much support and so much sympathy online. It feels good to post something.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  You've, yes-ish. You've lived through these last three years. The pendulum's swinging. They also get a ton of hate.

• 1:03:57Graham Stephan?

  I feel like it's, it's not balanced, though, in terms of the hate to love.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  I feel like it's getting balanced. I feel like you're right three, four years ago, but I think it's changing.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  I think it depends on the person and their audience.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:04:08Speaker 02

  Like mostly, like if you have like a girl that's crying like on a camera and her audience is like 95% women, like all of the comments. But if it's a guy that's like opening up about something.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  I get it, but let's talk about this. That goes back to the point of how we got here. That girl didn't wake up at 23 looking for unlimited sympathy. She's yearning for how she was parented. She wants to be coddled. That guy wants to be coddled. We want to blame. His fault, your fault, that fault, this fault, that generation's fault, that politician's fault, that government's fault. Fuck California, New York, Trump, Biden, Florida, Texas, her. Like, everybody, like, where's this? Real quick, where's this? When somebody's upset today, where is, I suck?

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  And that's not the same as I suck, let's go into depression. I'm talking about I'm accountable and capable. I don't like America, I can move to Costa Rica. I don't like my boss, I can quit. Oh, but Gary, I have a mortgage. Get out of it. Like, you can do, you know that, right?

• 1:05:18Speaker 02

  But that's also purposely and consciously subscribing to mild delusion. Because there are certain things that happen to certain people. That is not, that is not their fault. Is it important?

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  By the way, people, somebody just died of a stroke. It's not his fault. That, no, no.

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  So it's important to delineate what I'm trying to get at between fault and responsibility.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  No, no. I don't care about the semantics. To your point, fair, but let's go to where I'm trying to go. Which is, okay, something happened to you. Uh, you don't have a lot of money saved up. A rock bounced on the highway and smattered your windshield. And now you have to fix it. That, what, you know, I guess you could say I should have left my house earlier or later and the rock wouldn't be there. It's not, that's not the ridiculousness I'm looking forward to. I'm asking, like, what do you do about it now? Like, everything is about what you do about it. Could that person go on Craigslist and pick up on the free listings and sell it at the flea market this Saturday and make 320 bucks? They could, they could. They don't have to.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Could that person ring the doorbell of his neighbor and say, hey, you've always talked about my garden being awesome, your garden, I'd like to do your garden for the next four months, but I want 300 bucks for it because my windshield just broke. Would you like to do that? They could. Like, like, it happens all the time. How you react to shit, all that life is, all life is, is happening all the time. There is nothing else. The only thing that happens in life is happening all the time. What I'm interested in is what do you do about it?

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Is your life perfect?

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  I think I have a pretty good life.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Guess what? Bad news, something's gonna happen. That's life. You're not gonna be the one that goes through life without pain, or struggle, or micro issues. When you answer like that, here's where I go. That's awesome. That made my heart smile. Now, what I wanna say to you, if you were my younger brother, is, bro, do not complain one day if that's your truth. Not one complaint out of your mouth. Because in the macro, it's so good. You're one of the few people on earth that gets to say that. Two, be mentally prepared, and let's start thinking about that for when it doesn't. Because a lot of people that are only accustomed to being good, or get addicted to being good, when they get caught for bad, don't have the backbone to take the punch in the face. And that's when the shit starts to get bad, right?

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  Those are the things I like to start thinking about.

• 1:07:51Speaker 02

  So if you could say one thing that would make the biggest splash to the people listening right now that think that they don't have control over their own life, or that they have found themselves disagreeing, or subconsciously, they're disagreeing, they just don't consciously know it. What could you say to make the biggest splash, the biggest impact, to wake them up?

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  There's so many different places I go. One, a part of me goes into a really deep, tough love place of like, "Cool, you, I don't give a..."

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  "Look what the fuck do you want from me?" Like, I'm desperately trying to tell you, in life, you find what you're looking for. And if you're looking for good, it's good. And if you're looking for bad, it's bad. And what do you want from me? Humans sitting over here are like, "I don't need to convince you. You wanna have a shit life, you have a shit life." There's that part. Then there's the compassionate part, which is like, "Bro, please, like, you have one life. The math around having a life is 400 trillion to one. You've won already. You actually won. No matter how alcoholic, abusive father, sexual abuse, like, where do you wanna go? Third world country? Like, where do you wanna go? You still can actually, like, you still have a shot. You could have not been born. Like, you have a shot.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Like, give it a shot. You know, the sports fan, "How many times do you wanna watch a game? Look what the Pacers did to the Bucks the other day. The game was over, but it wasn't." Like, you could suck in life. You could be 53 right now and be a loser, and dominate from 60 to 80, enjoy it. You could. Like, it's never over. Like, I don't know, there's a lot of versions to your question. I don't know which one's gonna work for someone.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  That's why I use them all. I've got nothing but compassion to hard, like, I'm trying, I'm throwing out, why do you think I make so much content? I'm desperate out here to make everybody understand. Please, for the love of God, because deep down, what do you want from all of us? I don't judge you, but I can't change you either. Yeah, that was, that felt good. I've never said that. That's me. I don't judge you. I really don't, because I know people have different circumstances, luck of the draw, all that stuff. But I can't change you. You have to change you.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  You're way more impressive than I, and I'm not just saying that to like, I'm not just saying that, and I don't say that usually, like, almost ever on the podcast, but I had high expectations. And first of all, this entire unit, whatever you call this, floor is incredible. But also, you're way, like, sharper and just, maybe it's because you took that break, but I don't know.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I think, I think we talk about this a lot, like, I sandbag it a little bit publicly in hindsight, like, what am I gonna say? I'm smart? I'm sharp? Like, I'm obsessed with value for the audience. But to your point, like, this is nothing. You should, like, you live here for a month, you're like, holy, like, I'm, I'm, don't forget, I did it and then talked about it.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  And continue to do it. So, thank you for that. That means a lot to me.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  And again, the reason I like dealing with my compliments is, again, that just, my mom's 70th birthday is this weekend. Like, I can't wait to tell her what you just said, because it's gonna make her happy, because I'm her product.

• 1:10:54Speaker 02

  Well, shout out Gary's mom.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, Tamara V.

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  Okay, so we got some rapid fire questions. What's something you hate that everyone else seems to love? This could be anything.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Complaining.

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  Okay, that's a good answer. Dialed answer. If you could have a 30-minute conversation with any entrepreneur from history, who would you pick?

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  That's a great question. Um.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Who would I pick? I would pick Walt Disney.

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  You get 10 million tax-free today, but you can invest it or use it for business. You just have to spend it on fun. What do you buy?

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  Um, no, no, it's cool. I love that question. Uh, 10 million for fun or do, I would probably...

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Courtside MBA, like real, like sports is gonna be way up there. I do like restaurants, so I'd probably like, and wine, so I'd probably go super hardcore on. It's less about going to like travel, it'd be travel for purpose around food. So it's a very ridiculous meals. Fun. I mean, I would give away, I would love the feeling of giving away loads of cash at scale in like fun environments, not like the stuff we see like the influencers do, more like, I would go to like Peru and give somebody really like $30,000 where that's like four trillion. So some of that stuff would be really enjoyable with the cash.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Okay. What's one guilty pleasure you have that would surprise people?

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  That would surprise, most of my silly stuff I've shared a lot. Guilty pleasure, not so much people surprise with it. I'm not a very big guilty pleasure person. Like I have an incred, like it's funny. My fiance Mona is such a clean eater, but I think people know that I'm like willing to like eat 13 Snickers bars if I have to.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  Snickers are great though.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Watch them a call, it's obsessed with what, uh, I got one. But it's not a surprise, which is why I'm probably, I'd say, but I'm obsessed with cereal. But weird ones, like I'm huge on Captain Crunch.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  Captain Crunch is the best. Mr. Beast should have a cereal. Captain Crunch is the best cereal.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  The other favorite cereal I have is Grape Nuts, which is completely different.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  Never heard of that.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, look.

• 1:13:00Speaker 02

  I'll check it out. Would you rather own the New York Jets but never see them win a Super Bowl or see them win a Super Bowl but never get to own them?

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Number two. And not, and not even close, by the way. Chasing the Jets is my great love. Actually owning them, I'm neutral about. Winning a Super Bowl is everything to me. Winning and not owning.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  Why do you do this?

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  Because my mom knitted me a jersey, a Jets jersey when we were really poor with the number five on it. When all my friends in the neighborhood had a jersey and I asked for one, but we, she, we couldn't buy one because we didn't have that kind of money. 25 bucks on a jersey was not in the cards. So at night while we were sleeping, my mom knitted me a jersey. Um, it's the pinned Instagram that I have. Um, that, uh, if you go to my Instagram, it's pinned to the top why I want to actually buy the Jets. It has a lot to do with why I want to buy them. And every time I take a photo, I just want to pay an homage to my mom.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  Cool. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:13:53Speaker 02

  This was incredible. Thank you to everyone who spent your time listening. Hopefully this makes a change. And if you don't need it, congratulations.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  We all need it, me included.

• 1:14:11Speaker 04

  Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change. Your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5. Only at McDonald's for a limited time.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.