Pod Insights You're Dead to Me Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer? About this episode Greg Jenner is joined in 13th-Century Venice by Professor Sharon Kinoshita and comedian Ria Lina to learn all about medieval traveller Marco Polo and his adventures in China.
Born into a family of merchants, in 1271 a teenage Marco set out for the court of the Mongol emperor Qubilai Khan with his father and uncle. They would not return to Italy for nearly a quarter of a century. In the service of the emperor, the Polos saw all manner of extraordinary things – including the Mongols' amazing imperial postal service and diamond-hunting eagles in India. Imprisoned by the Genoese on his eventual return, Polo spent his time in prison writing his Description of the World with the Arthurian romance author Rustichello, a travelogue describing his exploits in the East and the wonders he had seen. This episode explores Polo’s extraordinary life, the decades he spent travelling in China and beyond, and the fascinating account he wrote on his return.
If you’re a fan of epic voyages, luxurious royal courts and medieval travel writing, you’ll love our episode on Marco Polo.
If you want more from Ria Lina, check out our episode on pirate queen Zheng Yi Sao. For more on the Mongols listen to our episode on Genghis Khan, and for more medieval travel writers, there's our episode on medieval Muslim explorer Ibn Battuta.
You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past.
Hosted by: Greg Jenner
Research by: Hannah Cusworth
Written by: Hannah Cusworth, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner
Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner
Audio Producer: Steve Hankey
Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands
Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse
Executive Editor: Philip Sellars
Transcript 10,796 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:51 Greg Jenner? Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today, we are packing our trunk and boarding a ship to 13th century China to learn all about medieval traveller Marco Polo. And to help us on our way, we have two very special travelling companions. In history corner, she's a distinguished professor of literature at the University of California, Santa Cruz. Her research focuses on the intercultural relations of 12th and 13th century Asia and Europe, and in literature particularly. And luckily for us, she's the most recent translator of Marco Polo's book, as well as the author of Marco Polo and His World. It's Professor Sharon Kinoshita. Welcome, Sharon.
2:31 Speaker 05 Thanks, Greg. I'm delighted to be here.
2:33 Greg Jenner? We're delighted to have you here. And in comedy corner, she's a comedian, actor and writer. You might have seen her on loads of things on TV, including Live at the Apollo, QI, Pointless, Having the News For You, maybe you've seen her stand-up tour, Reawakening, or heard her on Radio 4's news quiz, or The Now Show. And you will definitely remember her from our episode on Pirate Queen, Chung Yi Sao. It's Ria Lina. Welcome back to the show, Ria.
2:55 Speaker 06 Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
2:57 Greg Jenner? We're delighted to have you back. Now, Ria, you are, I think officially, the most educated, therefore most hyper-intelligent comedian we've ever had on. You have a PhD?
3:06 Speaker 06 I do have a PhD, but I don't know that that makes me the most.
3:09 Greg Jenner? The most educated, perhaps, but...
3:10 Speaker 06 Okay, all right. The only one that didn't have an ADHD enough to be able to finish three degrees.
3:15 Greg Jenner? But your PhD is in science.
3:17 Speaker 06 It is very science. It's in herpesviruses, if we're going to be precise.
3:21 Greg Jenner? That is precise.
3:24 Speaker 06 I know. And it was only one step from there to comedy, really.
3:26 Greg Jenner? How are you with history?
3:29 Speaker 06 What's the scale? I mean, what's the scale of comfort level? Listen, I can nail the tutors and stuarts, because that's all we were ever taught at school.
3:36 Greg Jenner? Okay.
3:37 Speaker 06 Tutors and stuarts, tutors and stuarts, you know, and then a healthy chunk of Victorian Britain. But I come to you for all of my 12th to 13th century Chinese knowledge, because I don't, they skip that.
3:49 Greg Jenner? Yeah, yeah, we're not so good on the UK curriculum with the sort of medieval China.
3:53 Speaker 06 With the rest of the world, which is ironic, given that we used to own it.
3:56 Greg Jenner? So is Marco Polo a familiar name?
4:01 Speaker 06 Very familiar name to me, because I used to play it all the time at school.
4:06 Greg Jenner? Okay.
4:07 Speaker 06 Or in swimming.
4:08 Greg Jenner? Talk us through the rules.
4:09 Speaker 06 The rule is that you put on a blindfold, and then everyone else that you're playing with has to avoid being tagged by you, but you get clues, and what you do is you say, Marco, and everyone has to say Polo when you say Marco, so that you can get an idea of where they are.
4:22 Greg Jenner? So you're echolocating?
4:23 Speaker 06 Yes.
4:24 Greg Jenner? Cartographically, is that how Marco Polo travelled the world, Sharon? By echolocating?
4:29 Speaker 05 You know, I have to continue my research, because I haven't been able to unearth the foundational document for the swimming pool game.
4:38 Greg Jenner? So, what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know?, where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And you've probably heard of the name Marco Polo. Much like Ria, you may have known he was a medieval famous traveller. You may even have played the famous swimming pool game. Marco!
4:59 Speaker 06 Polo!
5:00 Greg Jenner? Thank you, Ria. Now, sadly, this is a 20th century invention, not something that Marco did splashing around in the canals of Venice when he was a little boy. If you've travelled to Venice, oh, aren't you fancy? You will have flown to the Marco Polo Airport, you may have stayed in the Marco Polo Hotel, he's been the subject of a Netflix series. If you're a diehard Doctor Who fan and you've seen the original 1960s mini-series, you'll know that Marco Polo's in there too. He gets around, this famous traveller. But what was the real historical story behind the big name? Did Marco Polo really go to China? And why is there a sheep named after him? Let's find out. Professor Sharon, can we start at the beginning? When was Marco Polo born? And what was his family situation like? Was he wealthy? Is he born into privilege?
5:42 Speaker 05 Well, he was born in 1254, that much we're pretty sure of, so mid-13th century, into a merchant family of Venice. But we don't know very much about his childhood. But to be fair, in the Middle Ages, even future kings leave little to no trace in the historical record.
5:59 Greg Jenner? Right. So we know he was born in 1254. And that's it.
6:04 Speaker 05 That's right.
6:05 Greg Jenner? Helpful. Okay, I'll turn to you, Ria. What do you imagine his childhood was like in medieval Venice before little Bambino Marco was splashing around in the canals?
6:16 Speaker 06 Well, I have to say that really helps place things for me because I know Venice, I don't know how old Venice is. But it's at least as old as the 1200s. Because at some point, they would have had to build all those canals. Right? So it wasn't there in marshy times, which is an official time period, by the way, if you didn't know that.
6:36 Greg Jenner? The marshy era.
6:37 Speaker 06 Yeah, there's the Iron Age and the marshy times.
6:41 Speaker 06 But I can imagine that, okay, so Italy in the 1200s was a fascinating place. I know that, for example, there was a medical school in Salerno that taught both men and women. So I think that, I think it's more modern than we would think it would be in the 1200s. And him being born to a merchant family, right there, it was a big dock, wasn't it, Venice? And all the ships went from there to all over the world. So I think that he was really well-placed to be an explorer, better than, say, a sheep farmer in the Alps.
7:16 Greg Jenner? Sharon, I think Ria's done very well there. I think that's a very interesting summary of the 13th century of Venice. Can you tell us any more, or are we good?
7:23 Speaker 05 Well, that's fantastic, Ria. Yeah, the marsh era, indeed. Venice, in fact, was founded several centuries before by refugees who were fleeing those Germanic invasions. And, you know, they came across a bunch of marshy little islands and they figured the barbarians are not going to follow us here. They just built a city across a bunch of little marshy islands. Who would have thought? But by the 13th century, Venice was a really big, important maritime republic, making its fortune from traveling the seas and bringing luxury stuff back to Venice and funneling
8:07 Speaker 05 through Venice to the rest of the world. So it's, of course, striking for its canals. They were probably even more numerous then than they are now because a lot of the little streets in present day Venice are just little waterways that have been filled in. But its most famous buildings, like the Basilica of San Marco, was there in Marco Polo's day, but the other things that modern tourists might know, the Doge's Palace, the Rialto Bridge, they didn't yet exist. And they took their present form in later centuries, thanks to the enormous wealth generated by all those merchants of Venice.
8:47 Speaker 05 And you know, Venice really got its start with the First Crusade in 1099, and they developed a kind of transport business, shipping people back and forth to the Holy Land, knights and their horses. And, you know, along with all that merchandise, the silk, spices, the good things like that.
9:07 Greg Jenner? So we call this the Silk Road. Despite it being seas, the Silk Road is this trade network.
9:12 Speaker 06 Wow, this is the original Silk Road.
9:14 Greg Jenner? Yeah. Have you heard, you heard the phrase?
9:16 Speaker 06 I've heard of the website.
9:17 Greg Jenner? That's a, that's a very different type of website, really.
9:21 Speaker 06 Yeah, it's again, something else that's changed over the centuries.
9:25 Greg Jenner? So that's Venice. Sharon, tell us about Polo's family relations. Do we know of his siblings, mother, father?
9:33 Speaker 05 We don't know too much about his, the family of his generation yet, although we know a lot, well, we know a relative a lot about his father Niccolo and his uncle Maffeo, because they took off to the east and they actually traveled to the court of the Mongols a decade before Marco went with them. So we know about them. And then the little we know about his family comes from contracts that survive in the archives. They're quite a litigious family, so they were, well, like all merchants, they were drawing up contracts, but they were also writing wills. They had a few family disputes in there.
10:16 Speaker 05 So that's what we know about the larger family. When Marco set out, the Polos were, you know, a merchant family, but they were certainly not part of that upper crust that furnished the dynasties of Doges and so forth. So all we know about them really is what Marco and his co-author tell us in the
10:38 Speaker 05 Prologue, the first nineteen chapters of their book.
10:41 Greg Jenner? In my head, I'm thinking Marco Polo's the big, exciting explorer, but the dad and uncle have already done it. So there's already a trade network there, which is kind of interesting. What is the court? Where is the court?
10:53 Speaker 05 Well, it depends on what time of year you're talking about, because remember, the Mongols are nomads. So even though they've been conquering everything in sight, and they will, by the time Marco gets there, Kublai Khan will have set out constructing his big capital, which has various names, but basically it's modern Beijing. But, you know, they're nomads, and so it's hard to give up that traveling life, right? And they especially organize their year around hunting expeditions, because hunting is not only fun, as I tell my students, it's the medieval equivalent of golf for privileged males. But, you know, they want
11:36 Speaker 05 to be out on the steppe, in the middle of what we would consider the middle of nowhere, as well as, you know, establishing a big capital city in someplace like Beijing. So we don't know exactly where Marco and the Polos would have first encountered Kublai Khan, but one of the capitals is, in Chinese, called Chengdu, and this will give us Samuel Taylor Coleridge's Zanadu several centuries later. Yeah. You have to be multilingual in Marco Polo's world. So Dadau is...
12:10 Greg Jenner? Oh dear, sorry.
12:11 Speaker 05 Dadau is the Chinese name. It's basically, I think, big capital. Marco calls it Khanbalik, which is a Turkish word, meaning kind of head, you know, the city of the Khan. And then we call it Beijing, which, as I understand, in modern Chinese means northern capital. So yeah, we have all of these different names.
12:32 Greg Jenner? So, Ria, Marco grew up not really seeing his dad or his uncle, because they were off gallivanting around Western Asia. And then suddenly, one day, they came back, and they came back with a message for the Pope from the Mongol emperor. But daddy makes it up to little Marco by saying, "I've come back, I've delivered my message to the Pope, and actually, I quite fancy going back out again. Do you want to come?"
12:56 Speaker 06 Well, he's old enough by then, but also imagine knowing that your dad is so close to home and then he goes, sorry, I have to just detour for a couple of months to see the Pope. I'll be right back. That's just...
13:08 Greg Jenner? So the Polos now, or pack of Polos, let's call them that. So Maffeo, Niccolo and Marco, they head back out to Mongol China in 1271. Marco is a young, he's what, 17, 18? He's a young man.
13:19 Speaker 05 That's right.
13:19 Greg Jenner? And they travel to Eka, which is in the Holy Land of what we now call the Middle East. And they definitely go to China, Sharon, because I, when I was a student about 20 years ago or something like that, there was a big sort of like, ooh, did he really go to China? Was he, did he make it up? Was he telling stories? But he definitely went to China, right?
13:37 Speaker 05 He definitely went to China.
13:39 Greg Jenner? Okay, case closed.
13:40 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah. You know, there was a theory that he actually faked his book by cribbing from other writings, especially in Persian. But you know, the things he describes in Asia and in China totally correspond with what people who study the Asian end of things know about their material. But on the other hand, I should say, Greg, that if you asked Marco, had he been to China, he might have looked at you with puzzlement for, you know, a split second, because I think for Marco and his family, they were traveling not to China, but to the court of the Great Khan. So they were traveling in the Mongol Empire.
14:24 Speaker 05 When the Polos first arrived there, the Mongols ruled what we would consider now Northern China, because they had conquered that from the dynasty, the previous dynasty ruling it. And it wasn't until the Polos had been at the court of the Great Khan for half a decade or so, that Kubalai completed his conquest of what we would now call Southern China, which was the Empire of the Southern Song. So this had the effect of uniting the territories that hadn't been unified, you know, under single rule for a few centuries there, but which basically corresponds to our modern nation-state of China. So the Polos were actually...
15:06 Speaker 05 On the scene for this big turning point in world history.
15:10 Greg Jenner? Listeners, if you want to know more about the Mongols, we did one, an episode on Chinggis Khan, who grandfather of Kubla Khan, Genghis Khan, I guess more famous name, but Chinggis is what we called him. I mean, he's there, he's quite impressed by Kubla Khan and the capital Dadoo or Khanbalik. Do you want to guess how long the Polo stay in this part of the world?
15:29 Speaker 06 On this trip?
15:30 Greg Jenner? Well, let's call it a trip, but it's quite a long trip.
15:32 Speaker 06 Well, okay, but the first trip was a decade, so I'm gonna guess this was long. I'm okay, because I'm wondering about the dad and the uncle. I'm wondering if the dad and the uncle would never make it back. So let's go 20 years.
15:44 Greg Jenner? That's a really good guess, it's 24 years.
15:46 Speaker 06 Yes.
15:47 Greg Jenner? So you've done very well, you're very good at this, Ria, you've got incredible knowledge here.
15:51 Speaker 06 No, no, pulling it from I don't know where.
15:53 Greg Jenner? Well, they're amazing, but yeah, they're for 24 years. And Sharon, we get a sense then that Marco Polo, even though he arrives as a 17 year old, he becomes a man in China, in Mongol controlled China. What does he tell us about his life in Mongol China?
16:09 Speaker 05 Well, he tells us basically zero.
16:13 Greg Jenner? 24 years, Marco, come on.
16:15 Speaker 06 He's too busy having fun.
16:18 Greg Jenner? You talked about a book, what have we got?
16:19 Speaker 05 Well, I mean, we know his book today generally as Marco Polo's Travels. And when you see that travels on the title, you know, what are you expecting? You're expecting to hear about somebody's travels. But actually, the first versions of Marco's book were called not the travels, but the description of the world. So of course, that title puts emphasis not on Marco the traveler, but the world that he came to know. So the book consists of 233 chapters, some of them really short, some of them longer.
16:57 Speaker 05 But only 19 of those 233 chapters are devoted to a kind of overview of first the dad and uncle, and then all three of them going to Asia and back. The rest of the chapters are really about the places, sometimes in kind of, well, formulaic and kind of tedious. Fashion of just, there's this place and then three days' journey later, there's this place and then five days after that, there's this place. You know, sometimes modern readers who pick up the book are a little bit surprised and maybe just a tad disappointed.
17:33 Speaker 06 You know, I'm beginning to wonder whether his dad made him go to his room and just write down what happened today. And he's like, today we went to place A and tomorrow we're going to place B. Did it.
17:44 Greg Jenner? Sharon, Marco Polo tells us some really interesting things about, you know, life in the Mongol court, but also kind of wider administrative aspects. And two of the things I think that are particularly interesting would be the postal system.
17:57 Speaker 06 Yeah, I can't, I have to say, I did not expect to be this excited about the wider administrative organization.
18:04 Greg Jenner? Welcome to the nerd show over here.
18:07 Speaker 06 And you gave me a notebook and pen.
18:08 Greg Jenner? I did, I did. You know, this is what, we knew you were coming in. We thought we'd go fully nerd. Sharon, the postal system and paper money are two things that Polo is particularly intrigued by. These aren't brand new inventions, but these are things the Mongol Dynasty are renowned for. So can you talk us through them?
18:26 Speaker 05 Right. Okay, the postal system. Yeah. And so your American listeners would recognize this as a medieval model for the Pony Express. But actually, yeah, the Mongol system was called the Yam and it had many precedents in the ancient and medieval worlds, China, Persia and elsewhere. But of course, the Mongol Empire was vaster than any of those. So the distances we're talking about were much greater. Horses, or sometimes just runners, depending on the terrain, would be posted at stations every, we don't know, maybe three miles or so. And, you know, by relaying like this, they could cover,
19:10 Speaker 05 let's say, 10 days' journey for normal travelers in a day and a night, Marco tells us. So obviously such networks were intended most of all to transmit political and military intel with lightning speed, but they had other uses as well, such as, you know, bringing fresh fruit to the Khan from far flung places just in time for snack time, right? Fresh fruit. And actually, one of Kublai Khan's predecessors, you know, he boasts about having regularized a lot of this postal service, but we need to send out inspectors to make sure bureaucrats
19:51 Speaker 05 are not abusing the system by staying, you know, using it for their personal travel.
19:57 Greg Jenner? Yeah, so we've got something like 1,400 way stop stations and there'd be 50,000 horses in the network, we believe. And as you said, Sharon, they can deliver a message in 36 hours to the furthest extent of the Mongol Empire.
20:11 Speaker 06 36 hours, so that's 72 hours to have a craving for a kiwi. Send the message to the far reaches of your empire and get it back again. But I'll be honest, as a woman who gets cravings, that's still a long time to wait.
20:25 Greg Jenner? Also, you arrived with a kiwi fruit today.
20:27 Speaker 06 I did arrive with a kiwi. That's why I said foremost in my mind is I was halfway through a kiwi. How degraded would the message have been after 1,400 way stops?
20:35 Greg Jenner? They were sealed, Sharon, if I remember rightly. There was a sort of integrity, there was a sort of security integrity system, wasn't there?
20:41 Speaker 05 Yeah, I think those messengers were not oral messengers, but rather, you know, would have had a written text to deliver. And we have anecdotes of, especially the runners were equipped with bells. So if you were in the station, you know, waiting to receive the baton, you would hear that guy coming and you would get prepared to run your leg or to do your leg of the journey.
21:06 Greg Jenner? Tell us about paper money, because Marco Polo is particularly fascinated because paper money is not in use in Europe, is it, at this time?
21:11 Speaker 05 Oh, no, I mean, paper.
21:13 Speaker 06 Really?
21:14 Speaker 05 You know, the euro was a huge advance for those of us that are old enough, because before, you know, if you crossed from France to Germany to Italy, you'd have to be changing all your money, right? So. In Europe, even more fragmented in Marco Polo's time. Each city had its own currency. So the idea that you had-
21:34 Greg Jenner? Each city? That's a nightmare, isn't it?
21:36 Speaker 05 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So the idea that you had money that was good, you know, over the vast stretch of empire is just mind blowing. But also mind blowing is the idea that anyone would look at a piece of paper and think that you could buy anything with it, that, you know, it had any worth at all. Apparently, some of the early examples of the paper recorded their value and other information in several languages so that it could circulate. And interestingly, Marco tells us that the paper was made from the bark of the mulberry tree. This is distinctive because, you know, the mulberry tree is also the tree grown to feed silkworms.
22:19 Greg Jenner? Amazing. Famously, Marco Polo tells us that the punishment for refusing the paper money was death.
22:25 Speaker 06 Hang on a second, but I thought you could, I thought as a business you had a choice who you could do business with. Now they're just saying, "You will do business with me and you will take this money." Isn't it soft and silky, by the way, from the mulberry tree? And I will be taking these kiwi fruits with me.
22:39 Greg Jenner? Exactly that. Let's move on to something even shinier than paper money, which is jewels.
22:44 Speaker 06 Ooh.
22:44 Greg Jenner? Shiny shiny jewels. Marco Polo listed three techniques for unearthing natural diamonds. In India, interestingly enough, outside of China, can you guess what these techniques might have been? I'll give you a clue, Ria. One of them involves eagles.
22:57 Speaker 06 What?
22:57 Greg Jenner? The big flappy birds.
22:58 Speaker 06 Sorry, three techniques for getting jewels.
23:01 Greg Jenner? For finding jewels, for diamonds.
23:02 Speaker 06 Finding diamonds, okay. One of them is take it off of someone else who's already got some.
23:05 Greg Jenner? That's definitely a technique, sure.
23:08 Speaker 06 The second one is dig for them where they're made in the earth.
23:12 Greg Jenner? That's a very sensible technique, yeah.
23:14 Speaker 06 And then the third one is train your eagle.
23:18 Speaker 06 To pick them out of magpie nests.
23:22 Greg Jenner? I like that. That's a very smart.
23:24 Speaker 06 I think that those are my three highly informed decisions.
23:30 Greg Jenner? You know.
23:30 Speaker 06 Ask me how many diamonds I have.
23:32 Greg Jenner? How many diamonds do you have?
23:33 Speaker 06 None. None. None of those worked for me.
23:35 Greg Jenner? Sorry. Sorry to hear that. Sharon, is Ria about to be a very, very wealthy person with her diamond industry? I mean, what was the Marco Polo technique that he tells us about? These three, three different ways?
23:45 Speaker 05 Well, I think she was pretty close. So Marco Polo tells us.
23:48 Speaker 06 Yes.
23:50 Speaker 05 Marco Polo tells us about the way diamonds were collected in the province of Motopali on the east coast of India. So the diamonds were located in the mountains. So you let the rain wash them to the surface. Then in the dry season, you can go in and collect them in the gorges and the caverns. So on the one hand, you can just pick them up. But on the other hand, in the caverns, there are poisonous snakes there that are function as a deterrent.
24:22 Greg Jenner? Right.
24:23 Speaker 05 So, but more interestingly, they took pieces of meat into the cavern and they threw them in so the diamonds would stick to the meat. Then eagles come and grab the meat. So you can either chase the eagles off and grab the diamond studded meat. Or if the eagles had already eaten the meat, just wait for the diamonds to come out the other end.
24:49 Greg Jenner? Oh, hang on.
24:51 Speaker 06 So it was raining diamonds?
24:52 Greg Jenner? So.
24:52 Speaker 06 Just because, because birds famously can't control themselves.
24:55 Greg Jenner? Right.
24:56 Speaker 06 Right? They don't have sphincters.
24:58 Greg Jenner? No.
24:58 Speaker 06 So you could either throw the meat in and then fight the eagle for the meat.
25:02 Greg Jenner? Yes.
25:04 Speaker 06 This diamond sticky meat. I don't know what meat that is.
25:07 Greg Jenner? Yeah, what's.
25:08 Speaker 06 What's a diamond sticky meat?
25:09 Greg Jenner? Is it caramelized? Does someone put it in a sort of delicious juice, which is kind of sticky? What's?
25:14 Speaker 06 No, it's definitely raw.
25:15 Greg Jenner? It's raw meat.
25:15 Speaker 06 It's raw meat.
25:16 Greg Jenner? Sticky bloody meat. Okay.
25:18 Speaker 06 Diamond sticky.
25:19 Greg Jenner? Diamond sticky.
25:19 Speaker 06 Diamond sticky meat.
25:21 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
25:21 Speaker 06 And then you let the eagles fly and be themselves, but every so often just, just falls out and just falls. Out of the sky. You know what? Maybe that's why in today's society, it's considered lucky if a bird poos on you.
25:34 Greg Jenner? Maybe because then you're getting a free engagement ring.
25:35 Speaker 06 Because it used to be.
25:38 Greg Jenner? Diamonds are a girl's best friend, but you do have to wait for them to come through an eagle's digestive tract first.
25:43 Speaker 06 Well, there is a coffee that goes through a cat's digestive tract.
25:47 Greg Jenner? Yeah, civic cat. Yeah, and we've done a coffee episode if people want to listen to that. So there we go. It's all synced up.
25:52 Speaker 06 Honestly, at this point, it is easier to just go and take them off of somebody else. I'm not endorsing that. I'm not endorsing that as a method. I'm just saying it just strikes me as easier.
26:01 Greg Jenner? Yeah, arguably that's not mining, that's theft. But sure, sure.
26:05 Speaker 06 We didn't pick up, we didn't say mining, did we?
26:08 Greg Jenner? Maybe I didn't.
26:09 Speaker 06 You didn't say mining.
26:10 Greg Jenner? Okay, fair enough.
26:12 Speaker 06 Technically, none of those are mining.
26:16 Greg Jenner? Sharon, I think at the top of the show, we mentioned Marco Polo sheep, which sounds delightful. What's that about?
26:25 Speaker 05 Well, you know, Marco surprisingly often waxes lyrical about a region's animal life. And in the Palmyra Mountains, the highest place in the world, he finds very large wild sheep with huge horns, from which, as he tells us, shepherds made big bowls that they eat from. So today, these sheep are drawing the attention both of big game hunters on the one hand and environmentalists on the other. And we know them as Marco Polo sheep.
26:58 Greg Jenner? Ah, that's fantastic.
27:00 Speaker 06 I thought they had a hole in the middle.
27:02 Greg Jenner? Yes. I mean, that's amazing. So we call them Marco Polo sheep because he wrote about them. That's, that's, so this is him noticing these things and then a modern day scholars going, oh yeah, the sheep that Marco Polo talked about. He also, he talks about luxury goods that were very valuable back in Europe and in the wider world, that were from the animal kingdom. Ria, if I say to you ambergris and musk, do you know what those two things are?
27:27 Speaker 06 Well, vomit.
27:29 Greg Jenner? It is.
27:30 Speaker 06 Well, vomit.
27:31 Greg Jenner? I didn't know there was a song, but yes.
27:33 Speaker 06 There is now. Ambergris doesn't smell, it's funny that we use it for perfumes.
27:39 Greg Jenner? Yeah, we do.
27:39 Speaker 06 Because it doesn't smell nice, but it is this horrendous yellowy kind of. Gelatinous, maybe? Well, I don't know if that's quite the right term, that can wash up. But if you find any on a beach, like, that sells for good money.
27:53 Greg Jenner? It's quid's in, isn't it? Yeah, it's tens of thousands of pounds. Yes, it's whale phlegm. And so ambergris was very luxurious, used in perfumes, as you say. Musk was extracted from the anal glands of certain types of deer, I believe, Sharon, is that correct?
28:07 Speaker 05 Yeah, deer and oxen, I guess. And it's no accident that Marco Polo really pays attention to these because the Polo seem to have traded in musk. And after they returned to Venice, a good part of their increased fortune, we think, came from their trafficking in musk. So an animal secretion, again, valued in the making of perfume. So he is careful to tell us everywhere these animals are found. And at one point, he tells us way more than we need to know about how to extract it from the dead animal.
28:44 Greg Jenner? Been a bit of a sausage fest so far. You know, I'm aware that we've really only talked about men so far. Marco, Matteo, Niccolo, Kubla Khan. Marco Polo does write about the women he encounters on his 24 years. He talks about the women of Tibet as particularly interesting. Do you know why, Ria?
29:03 Speaker 06 The women of Tibet?
29:04 Greg Jenner? Yes. I'll give you a clue about their romantic and sexual lives.
29:10 Speaker 06 Well, OK, I don't know if there's a Tibet. I do know that there is, and I'm fascinated by it, a village that is matriarchal, and it's in that area of the world. It's a matriarchal society. The women have houses and the men sort of go, can I sleep here tonight? And she decides whether or not he can. And they can either have, some of them, like, one man for their whole, you know, lifetime, and they father all of their children. And some of them go, all right, tonight, but next week, Harry's coming. And they rotate around. So is there, did he discover this matriarchal society? Please say yes.
29:43 Greg Jenner? That's a great guess. Did he, Sharon?
29:45 Speaker 05 That's a great guess. Yeah, he describes a couple of regions in Tibet. In one, he tells us, no man would marry a virgin. So when visitors... Mothers pass through, just what you said, Ria. Mothers would bring their daughters to sleep with them. And afterwards, they demanded a little tokens that the daughter could wear around her neck as proof of her experience. And it was those women that, you know, had a necklace of 20 or more of these tokens that were really prized as wives and held in high esteem.
30:17 Speaker 06 This is what I'm talking about. These women need to be on the speaker circuit or get them a TikTok account.
30:24 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
30:24 Speaker 06 Something. That is brilliant, finally, understanding that the more you know, the better you are.
30:29 Greg Jenner? Exactly there. So instead of notches on the bedpost, these, I guess, nomadic people without beds. So I guess.
30:36 Speaker 06 And presumably without eagles. Otherwise, you'd be like, is she a virgin or does she just have really good eagle? You know?
30:44 Greg Jenner? Fair point. And his final mission at the end of these 24 years is to escort a bride quite a long way, Sharon. Is this a sort of fairy tale occasion? Is this a big royal wedding? Is it Harry and Meghan, Mark II?
30:58 Speaker 05 So Kubalai's great nephew, who is the Ilhan, the sub-con of Persia, sent a request to uncle saying, you know, my chief wife has died. I would like another bride from her same tribe. Can you send me one? So Kubalai assembled a huge escort wedding party. And we can just imagine the polos jumping forward to ask to be included in this imperial party because this was a chance for them to sail back in the direction of Venice, anyway, after so many years with the Great Khan. So they ended up as part of the retinue of this young princess, Kekke Chine.
31:39 Speaker 05 Now sadly, by the time they arrived in Persia after taking the maritime route, the sea route around the Pacific and Indian Oceans, the groom had died. So the bride was given instead to his son. And but the polos, you know, haven't gotten that far all the way back to Persia, were able to continue on their way back to Venice, where they arrived in 1295. So about 24 years after they had first left.
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34:31 Greg Jenner? Marco has delivered the bride safely, not to the right husband, but never mind, to a husband. And then they sailed home and they-
34:38 Speaker 06 Fifty percent of the right husband?
34:39 Greg Jenner? Yeah, I mean, same surname, right?
34:41 Speaker 06 Genetics, right?
34:41 Greg Jenner? Same surname.
34:42 Speaker 06 Same, same family.
34:43 Greg Jenner? And they get back to Venice in 1295, and I'm thinking, warm welcome, right? He's been away 24 years.
34:50 Speaker 06 In 1295?
34:52 Greg Jenner? In 1295. Remember, he's born in 1254. So he's, you know, he's an old man now. He's, he's getting on a bit. Was it a warm welcome, Sharon? Was it, you know, street party, parades, trumpets?
35:02 Speaker 06 He's 41. I mean-
35:03 Greg Jenner? I'm 42, so, you know, I'm feeling the age now.
35:05 Speaker 06 Oh, you feel that same thing? Okay, fine.
35:07 Greg Jenner? Yeah, for me, that's-
35:07 Speaker 06 It really isn't. I just want you to feel better about yourself.
35:10 Greg Jenner? Thank you, but I feel like I'm decaying quickly, and I feel like-
35:12 Speaker 06 Oh, okay. And have you spent 24 years in the Mongolian Empire?
35:15 Greg Jenner? No.
35:15 Speaker 06 No, you have not. What have you done with your life, Greg?
35:17 Greg Jenner? Very little.
35:17 Speaker 06 Really, honestly. Have you written 233 chapters of there was this and then there was that?
35:22 Greg Jenner? I've written seven books. Does that count?
35:23 Speaker 06 Yes. Nice one.
35:25 Greg Jenner? Sharon, talk me through the welcoming, the, the big arrival. Do the polos get off the boat and everyone's like, "Oh, where have you been?"
35:32 Speaker 05 Well, I hope they got a warm welcome at home.
35:36 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
35:37 Speaker 05 But in fact, you know, Marco stepped very quickly into Venice's political conflicts, et cetera, all around the Mediterranean. So we're not really sure what happened when he got home. But within four years, he was in jail in Genoa. So they're the great rivals of the Venetians. And so, yeah, he found himself in the year 1298, cooped up with other prisoners. And this is when and how the book got first written down.
36:09 Greg Jenner? Okay, so he's in a Genoese prison. He has survived 24 years in the court of the terrifyingly, you know, famously fearsome Kubla Khan. He has survived thousands of miles of voyages. He's survived everything you can. He gets back home and, and four years later, he's in jail. It's not ideal. It's quite bad luck.
36:25 Speaker 06 I mean, I'm hearing white privilege. That's what I'm hearing. That's what saved- He was probably due jail for 24 years over there, but they just went and came-
36:33 Greg Jenner? He was just coasting around going, "Hello, hello, hello."
36:35 Speaker 06 And he comes back, everyone's white. He's like, "Wait a minute."
36:39 Greg Jenner? So unlucky for him. Lucky for us, though, because, Sharon, we, we get the book because his sailmate is a renowned writer.
36:47 Greg Jenner? But with a lovely name, Rusticello.
36:49 Speaker 06 Oh.
36:50 Speaker 05 Yeah, from Pisa, because Pisa was another one of Genoa's trade rivals. And we know of Rusticello because he wrote in Arthurian romance. And so the two teamed up. Actually, in the book, when you have I or we, it's often Rusticello talking, not Marco.
37:09 Greg Jenner? Are they co-authors?
37:11 Speaker 05 They are, we would call them co-authors. And I guess we would be tempted to call Rusticello a kind of ghostwriter. But unlike modern ghostwriters, he doesn't disappear into the background. He's like front and centre, saying, you know, I, Rusticello of Pisa, got Marco to tell me these stories and I'm writing them down.
37:30 Greg Jenner? Fair enough.
37:32 Speaker 06 Any excuse to insert yourself, right?
37:34 Greg Jenner? Yeah, yeah, well, why not? You know, you've gone through the hard work of all that scribbling in the cell. You know, it's probably not very good lighting.
37:41 Speaker 06 It wasn't just the scribbling, he got him to tell the stories.
37:44 Greg Jenner? That's the other thing, isn't it? He extracted these stories from him. Okay, and the book, as you said earlier, Sharon, is not called Travels of Marco Pirlo. It is called Description of the World, composed in 1298, dictated to Rusticello, Rusticello. Boring question here, what is he writing on? Are there like writing supplies? Like when you're in prison, are there, is there paper, is there pen? What's he doing?
38:07 Speaker 05 Well, we don't know exactly, except that a lot of the prisoners, especially the Pizans, were notaries and, you know, they're used to keeping records, writing stuff down. And so the Genoese put these prisoners to work and they had them copying manuscripts and stuff. So, you know, they would have been around a lot of writing implements.
38:28 Greg Jenner? So it's a sort of prison work scheme where you're, you're put to work writing out legal documents?
38:34 Speaker 05 Exactly. Oh, no, actually manuscripts, translations from Latin romances.
38:40 Greg Jenner? Really? Do you know what language is written in the book?
38:44 Speaker 06 Well, okay, so just the fact that you've asked me the question means that the answer isn't Italian.
38:48 Speaker 05 Well.
38:49 Speaker 06 Because, okay, so he's pissing, she said that they're notaries, they translate from Latin, so it could be in Latin, but this, this is, I mean, because it's Rusticello writing it down, and it's not Italian?
39:00 Greg Jenner? Well, Sharon, there's many languages being spoken in Italy at this time, or dialects, perhaps, so which dialect, it's not Latin, it is a vernacular language, which language are we calling this?
39:11 Speaker 05 It's French, ta-da.
39:13 Greg Jenner? Ah.
39:15 Speaker 06 Of course, how did I not get that? Of course it's French.
39:18 Greg Jenner? Of course it's French, it's Italy, it's French, of course it is.
39:21 Speaker 06 Of course Rusticello knows French, as well as Latin, as well as Italian.
39:25 Greg Jenner? So Marco Polo is, he speaks Mongolian, he probably speaks a bit of Persian, he speaks Italian, but now this book is in French, that makes sense. Do we know why he writes it? Or why does Rusticello extract the story?
39:36 Speaker 05 Well, this is because, okay, this is like a half-generation before Dante writes his Divine Comedy and makes Italian into a respectable language to write in.
39:48 Speaker 06 Oh, okay.
39:49 Speaker 05 Yeah.
39:50 Greg Jenner? So French is classy.
39:51 Speaker 06 It's classy, yeah, and Italian was just...
39:53 Speaker 05 And it's really, you know, it's an international language, sort of like global English, so Italians who were not associated with the church and therefore were not going to write in Latin, wrote in French, and we have lots of examples.
40:06 Greg Jenner? Ah, okay. But who's it for, this book? Is he just noting down his memories because, you know, he doesn't want them to get lost? Or is he, has he got an audience? Is there someone he intends it for? Is this his way of getting out of prison?
40:18 Speaker 05 Well, Rusticello's prologue starts out by addressing emperors and kings, dukes and marquise, counts, knights, townsfolk, all of you who wish to know the diverse regions of the world. So, you know, this is like a, an act of social imagining that corresponds to no actual audience that you could have had in the Middle Ages, and it's pretty unique. The only, it, it really strongly echoes the beginning of Rusticello's One Romance, where, you know, he's trying to get the biggest readership possible.
40:52 Greg Jenner? Okay, when you start with kings, you're definitely aiming high. But then by the end, he's like, townspeople, anyone, whoever is nearby.
40:59 Speaker 06 Hey, you.
41:00 Greg Jenner? Yeah, please read my book. Okay. And so he calls it the description of the world because he's seen the world. It's quite a grand title. He's kind of showing off a bit.
41:11 Speaker 06 Well, I question who picked the title at this point. I feel like Rusticello really had a lot of sway in the making of this book. He's like, first of all, we're going to write it in French.
41:22 Speaker 06 Second of all, I'm in this book. I didn't go on the trip for 24 years, but I'm in the book. Third of all, it's going to be read by everybody. So I don't know that Marco Polo had much say in what it was going to be called.
41:38 Greg Jenner? And then Marco Polo was released from prison.
41:41 Speaker 06 What did he go in for?
41:42 Greg Jenner? Well, we don't really know, do we? We just sort of assume he was a bit foreign and the Genoese were like, you, you're a foreigner.
41:49 Speaker 06 Wait, but he isn't. He was born there.
41:51 Greg Jenner? No, he was born in Venice.
41:53 Speaker 06 Oh, he lands in Genoa. Oh, I missed that. I thought he went back to Venice. He went back to Genoa.
41:57 Greg Jenner? But there was a war between Venice and Genoa. It's all very confusing, so.
42:01 Speaker 06 Why, if you're Venetian, would you land in Genoa in the middle of a war?
42:05 Greg Jenner? I don't know. Do we know, Sharon?
42:08 Speaker 05 Well, probably in some battle. There were a lot of battles and you just took a lot of prisoners of war.
42:14 Speaker 06 Oh, I see.
42:15 Greg Jenner? Okay.
42:16 Speaker 05 Mainly you held them for ransom, but you know, yeah.
42:20 Greg Jenner? Okay. He is released from prison eventually. Presumably they're like, all right, the war's over, off you go. What does he do with his time? Does he settle down? Does he marry? Does he start a different career?
42:33 Speaker 05 He marries and actually he marries well above his station. So we start to see, you know, the profit that he's getting, probably from the musk trade. He marries very well. He has a couple of daughters who also marry very well, above the Polo's original social status. And then we really don't know much more than that. We have a couple of contracts, mainly having to do with musk. And then he dies in 1324, aged 70, a ripe old age for those days.
43:06 Greg Jenner? What was the name of his wife?
43:07 Speaker 05 Donata Baduer.
43:09 Greg Jenner? Lovely, okay, they had daughters and married, so he did quite well for himself in the end, actually. He ends up marrying, you know, he goes from polo mint to fox's glacier mint. I don't know what's, I'm trying to think of a classy mint, I can't, I don't, I don't know.
43:24 Speaker 05 Well, he goes from lifesaver to polo mint.
43:26 Greg Jenner? There we go, there we go, but yeah, so he does well for himself in the end, Ria.
43:30 Speaker 06 He, you know what really surprises me is that he spent 24 years as a foreigner in the Mongol Empire and doesn't marry and have kids there. He must have had relations and something going on there. And then he just one day upped and went, honey, I have to go and take this bride to Persia. And then never comes back.
43:47 Greg Jenner? Sharon, I think it's fair to say he was a bit of a lover man in China, in the Mongol Empire, is that fair?
43:53 Speaker 05 He had a lot of necklaces.
43:55 Greg Jenner? He had a lot of necklaces.
43:58 Speaker 05 You know what? What happens in the Mongol Empire stays in the Mongol Empire.
44:05 Greg Jenner? Very nice.
44:06 Speaker 06 Unless you're a bride from the village of the chief wife.
44:08 Greg Jenner? That's right, that's beautifully done, Sharon, thank you very much for that. Okay, and so in his will, Ria, he left 24 beds to then his, to his children, family Marco Polo. So I don't know if he was running like a boutique hotel, but that's, he's done all right for himself, hasn't he?
44:25 Speaker 06 24 beds?
44:25 Greg Jenner? 24.
44:26 Speaker 06 Well, ideally in a hotel, right? Like surrounded by a structure that they could do something with?
44:31 Greg Jenner? I don't know, I mean, I don't know.
44:31 Speaker 06 Just a warehouse full of Ikea furniture?
44:33 Greg Jenner? Maybe he was importing furniture, maybe he was trying to sell them out in the Mongol world, were they, you know, nomads? I don't know, but yeah.
44:39 Speaker 06 How much was a bed that that was, you know, thanks dad?
44:41 Greg Jenner? That's, that's worth quite a lot of beds, isn't it? I mean, famously Shakespeare in his will leaves his best bed to, second best bed to his wife. A bed was valuable to leave 24 behind, suggest great wealth, Sharon.
44:52 Speaker 05 It suggests a big household, so you know, family members and all this. But also, you know, it was widespread throughout Italy and much of the Mediterranean at this time to have enslaved peoples, AKA domestic servants.
45:06 Greg Jenner? Ah, okay, so I was about to say that Marco Polo sounds like actually quite a nice guy, but then you've unfortunately ruined that, potentially he maybe wasn't so nice in the end. But okay, so he died in 1324, aged 70, and his travel book outlived him because of course you have translated it and it's, it's well known. And as Ria said, people were shouting his name in swimming pools throughout the 20th century. So can you tell us about the book, this, this fantastic, extraordinary document? How did it outlive him and how did it spread through Europe?
45:39 Speaker 05 Well, this was a bestseller in the Middle Ages, if you judge by the number of manuscripts it survived. But most of them survived because the book was fairly rapidly translated into Latin by a Dominican friar. And so, you know, once the church gets hold of it, you can imagine that they're not going to have the same attitude towards the description and especially the customs of these exotic places, like, you know, those tokens that you get in Tibet. So they change the text, or, you know, they insert their own little editorial comments.
46:16 Greg Jenner? Oh, really?
46:17 Speaker 05 And it's that Latin copy that then gets retranslated into a bunch of languages, back into Italian dialects, but also, you know, further on into northern European languages.
46:31 Greg Jenner? And I know that Columbus was a big fan. Christopher Columbus, when he was set off to look for India and-
46:37 Speaker 06 In 1492.
46:39 Greg Jenner? Thank you, Ria, for that. Absolutely true. In 1492, Ocean Blue and all that, he read the book as a sort of, when you go out and buy a travel book before you go on holiday. Was he, was this him sort of going, I need to know all about Asia because I'm off to India?
46:55 Speaker 06 If you've got anything on the world.
46:56 Greg Jenner? Yes.
46:57 Speaker 06 Actually, I have this description of it.
46:58 Greg Jenner? Yes, description of the world. Sharon, is that because the book was a classic by then, by the 1490s?
47:03 Speaker 05 Well, you know, you have to remember that, so Marco Polo is writing in 1298, and then in 1348, we get the Black Death. Lots of things collapse as a result of the Black Death, including a lot of those open pathways into Asia. And so even by 1492 or the 1490s, when Columbus sets out, we don't have so many firsthand experiences, especially of the coast of Asia, the Pacific coast. And so since that is what Columbus is aiming for, Marco Polo's Book of India that describes that maritime route is really, you know, even though it's kind of old, it's the information that we have.
47:49 Speaker 06 If only he followed it, he would have found Asia.
47:53 Greg Jenner? I mean, in fairness to Columbus, he was looking for India. He sort of, he thought Cuba was Japan and then he got very confused and then he came home.
47:59 Speaker 06 Right, because he didn't follow the actual path in the book.
48:02 Greg Jenner? Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's hard. Tell us about the 19th century, because I know in the Victorian era, there, there was a sort of Apollo, kind of re, I don't know.
48:13 Speaker 06 Resurgence?
48:14 Greg Jenner? Research, yes, thank you. Apollo, Apollo Renaissance.
48:19 Greg Jenner? We get sort of more interest in him. There was a particular, was it a Scottish translator or geographer?
48:25 Speaker 05 Well, you know, by the 19th century, you had your Brits playing the great game in Asia.
48:32 Greg Jenner? Oh, yes.
48:32 Speaker 05 And then you had, you know, Royal Geographical Societies and, you know, that kind of stuff. So we had a lot of, you know, adventurers or who were out there, part of the army, part of the administration. And they were fascinated by Marco Polo's descriptions, especially of, you know, some of the flora and the fauna and some of the peoples encountered. So you had Henry Yule in particular, who translated it and who, I mean, the annotations are about six times as lengthy as the text. But he's writing to, you know, friends of his, who was the, you know, the head of station and such and such up in the mountains.
49:12 Speaker 05 And he's saying, you know, so can you verify for me that there's a plant like this and an animal like that?
49:18 Greg Jenner? Really?
49:19 Speaker 05 So it's really part of the expansionism and the geographical and sort of scientific cataloguing of the world.
49:26 Greg Jenner? That's really interesting. So the age of exploration in the, in the 13th century, then you get the age of conquest and colonialism, where these men of science and learning, but also administrators are looking at earlier texts and going, ah, yes, I can see that plant. He's written about it earlier. That's, it's very, it's very interesting to see a book having that kind of legacy in life.
49:45 Speaker 06 I think it's kind of interesting to think that they, it got discovered, I'll put in air quotes, written about. Then, you know, Black Death, everything then became theoretical. And then they went out again.
49:58 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
49:59 Speaker 06 And just went, hey, is what you discovered what they discovered? And they go, yeah, it's because it's the same place and the same plants.
50:04 Greg Jenner? Find me a Marco Polo sheep, I want to ride it.
50:08 Greg Jenner? The Nuance Window!
50:14 Greg Jenner? This is the part of the show where Ria and I sit quietly and study our navigation charts while Professor Sharon has two minutes to tell us something we need to know about Marco Polo. My stopwatch is ready, so Professor Sharon, please take it away.
50:26 Speaker 05 Okay, thanks Greg. What I'd like to emphasise, I think, is how surprising Marco Polo's book is on so many levels. So we've already touched on the point that it was written not as a travel narrative and that despite being authored by two Italians, it was composed in not in Italian but in French. But in his own time, Marco Polo was a real mythbuster. One spectacular example is when he tells his readers that, now hang on, unicorns are not at all as they are described in contemporary bestiaries and encyclopedias, but along with that single horn protruding from their forehead, they, as he says, have hair like buffaloes
51:09 Speaker 05 and feet like elephants. What he's describing, of course, is a rhinoceros, which, as he emphasises decidedly, does not let itself be captured by a virgin. At least as wondrous, I think, is the way Marco identifies the many sites across South, South East and East Asia that are sources of the spices, especially pepper, but also cloves, nutmeg, galangal, and other exotic commodities that European merchants like himself would previously have accessed only at Mediterranean ports such as Akhe or Alexandria. What might read to us like that tedious repetition would have held the fascination of secret intel, I think,
51:54 Speaker 05 for his compatriots. Now, for modern readers, it's often astonishing to see Marco recount customs like polygamy, cremation, even anthropophagy with equanimity, even though they would have been unspeakably shocking to Latin Christians back home.
52:13 Speaker 05 His book lacks any divisions of the world and its peoples into capital E east or capital W west, and he makes no mention of the old world continents, Asia, Africa, and Europe, that are the staple of Latin European cartography of the time. His "idolaters" lumps together peoples we would today identify as Buddhists, Confucians, Hindus, animists, and so forth, but they are not bad unless they attack merchants. So these are just some, you know, surprising aspects of Marco Polo's book, but I think we need to recognize
52:53 Speaker 05 that this was a voice in the Middle Ages that we, you know, can strike us as surprisingly modern. And that's why I think Marco Polo is just such a wonderful subject for rediscovery. Thank you.
53:07 Greg Jenner? Amazing. Thank you, Sharon. Thank you so much. Ria, that's a really interesting note to finish on, isn't it?
53:11 Speaker 06 It was. Can I just ask quickly, did you say polygamy, apophagy, and?
53:17 Speaker 05 Anthropophagy. I hope I.
53:19 Speaker 06 Anthropophagy?
53:20 Speaker 05 Yeah.
53:21 Speaker 06 What is anthropophagy?
53:22 Greg Jenner? Cannibalism.
53:23 Speaker 06 Oh.
53:24 Greg Jenner? Yes. So what do you know now?
53:31 Greg Jenner? Well, there we go. So it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now?
53:34 Speaker 06 Uh-oh.
53:35 Greg Jenner? This is our, this is our quickfire quiz for Ria, who is wincing, panicking? What's the word?
53:40 Speaker 06 Well, I've written Kofi's notes.
53:42 Greg Jenner? You have?
53:43 Speaker 06 I've got, yeah. Oh, my gosh. I wrote loads of notes. Okay. And I drew a picture of a polo sheep.
53:48 Greg Jenner? It's a delightful polo sheep.
53:50 Speaker 06 It has a hole in the middle.
53:50 Greg Jenner? Because it's got a hole in the middle.
53:51 Speaker 06 Yes. And bowls for horns.
53:54 Greg Jenner? All right. I've got 10 questions for you.
53:55 Speaker 06 All right. I'm ready.
53:55 Greg Jenner? Let's see how you do. Question one.
53:57 Speaker 06 Marco. No, okay. Sorry. No, I preempted it. Right.
54:01 Greg Jenner? Question one. What was the title of Marco Polo's book when he first wrote it?
54:05 Speaker 06 Description of the world.
54:07 Greg Jenner? It was very good. Question two. In which city was Marco Polo born?
54:12 Speaker 06 Uh, Venezia.
54:13 Greg Jenner? It was. Oh, very nice. Yes. Venice, Venezia. Very good. Question three. Who was the Mongol emperor that the Polos worked for?
54:20 Speaker 06 Kublai Khan.
54:21 Greg Jenner? Very good. Question four, what was the name of Kublai Khan's capital city, do you remember?
54:26 Speaker 06 As far as I followed, it was, it's now Beijing, or in that area. But then there was Dado.
54:33 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
54:34 Speaker 06 And, but also there was something called Khanbalak, which was City of Khan, which other people called it.
54:39 Greg Jenner? That's right. You've taken some very good notes. Yeah, absolutely. Khanbalak and Dado, which would be Beijing, also the Vajradanado as well, which I think was a separate capital. Question five, what did Marco Polo say about the women in Tibet?
54:51 Speaker 06 What did, I, do you know what, I'll be honest, I don't think we actually learned what his personal feelings on the matter were. But what I do believe we know is that he left lighter of a lot of necklaces that he had with him at the time.
55:04 Greg Jenner? Maybe.
55:05 Speaker 06 But he described these Tibetan women where they actually prized sexual experience.
55:11 Greg Jenner? You're right, absolutely.
55:12 Speaker 06 Over virginity.
55:13 Greg Jenner? That's right. Question six, describe one of the three ways that you can mine diamonds in India.
55:18 Speaker 06 Just one of the three?
55:19 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
55:19 Speaker 06 Well, it's gotta be. You get some sticky meat. You throw it in a cavern. The diamonds are naturally attracted to the sticky meat. Then you send an eagle in, right? And then the eagle, you hope, goes for the meat rather than one of the poisonous snakes that are also in the cavern. Because you're just like, why would the eagle go for fresh meat when it can go for slightly sticky meat covered in diamonds? And then you either fight the eagle for the meat, or you wait politely until the eagle's hat is fill. And then hope it flies over you and makes you really lucky by raining down poo on you.
55:54 Greg Jenner? Yeah, incredible answer.
55:56 Speaker 06 Yes.
55:56 Greg Jenner? Incredible answer.
55:57 Speaker 06 I'm trying to think of the word. What's the word for the bat poo?
56:00 Greg Jenner? Guano.
56:01 Speaker 06 Guano, yeah. So it can also sometimes, I bet you eagles also guano.
56:05 Greg Jenner? Yeah, they're gonna guano on you. Okay, that's an amazing answer. Well done. Question seven, what was the final mission that Marco Polo carried out for Kublai Khan?
56:13 Speaker 06 Yeah, so this was a biggie, right? So Kublai Khan's nephew lost his chief wife, right? And this was a good chief wife, right? She came from a special village of that just, I don't know what they did, what was in the water, but they made good chief wife stuff. So he had to take another bride from that village all the way. Way over to Persia to marry his nephew. Unfortunately, though, the nephew, we got so excited or whatever, he popped his clogs before she even got there. So in the end, she married his great nephew.
56:40 Greg Jenner? This is incredible answer. You've got incredible memory, honestly.
56:44 Speaker 06 You remember those things. And it was like, but it was a huge entourage. She had tons of people.
56:48 Greg Jenner? It was, it was, absolutely. Question eight, which famous Italian writer did Marco Polo co-write the Description of the World with?
56:55 Speaker 06 Oh, I know. Okay. So he wrote this with the famous author of that famous Arthurian romance, Rusticello.
57:01 Greg Jenner? Beautifully done. Question nine, how many beds did Marco Polo leave in his will?
57:06 Speaker 06 Twenty-four.
57:07 Greg Jenner? It was twenty-four beds for twenty-four years away, I guess, maybe, I don't know.
57:10 Speaker 06 A better year.
57:10 Greg Jenner? A better year. This were a perfect ten. Which famous explorer was known to be a big Marco Polo fan in fourteen ninety-two?
57:18 Speaker 06 Well, he was a fan. He didn't read the book very well because he went in totally the wrong direction, but Christopher Columbus.
57:26 Greg Jenner? It was Columbus. Ten out of ten, Ria Lina, well done. What an extraordinary reciting of what we talked about. Incredibly accurate. Well done. And also well done, Sharon, for such instructive teaching there. That was amazing. I've had such a lovely time. Thank you, Sharon, and thank you, Ria.
57:41 Speaker 06 Quite all right. Our motto being, of course, what happens in the Mongol Empire stays in the Mongol Empire.
57:47 Greg Jenner? Oh, yeah. And listener, if you want more Chinese history with Ria, you can check out the episode on the iconic pirate queen, Chung Yisao, what an extraordinary life she led as well.
57:55 Speaker 06 Oh, she's still my hero.
57:57 Greg Jenner? She was amazing.
57:58 Speaker 06 Incredible.
57:58 Greg Jenner? The fact that she got to retire with all her riches, incredible. They were just like, all right, you know, incredible.
58:03 Speaker 06 Because that's how women do it.
58:06 Greg Jenner? And of course, you can listen to our episode on Chinggis Khan as well. And if medieval travellers are your thing, we also have an episode on Ibn Battuta. And remember, if you've enjoyed the episode, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear the episodes one month before all the other platforms. It's very important. And if you get on there, make sure to switch on your notifications so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In history corner, we have the spectacular Professor Sharon Kinoshita from UC Santa Cruz. Thank you, Sharon.
58:32 Speaker 05 Thanks, Greg. I had a great time.
58:34 Greg Jenner? It was wonderful having you on.
58:35 Speaker 05 Thank you, that was wonderful.
58:36 Greg Jenner? Yeah, it was absolutely fascinating. And in comedy corner, we have the sensational Ria Lina. Thank you, Ria.
58:40 Speaker 06 No, thank you for having me.
58:42 Greg Jenner? It's been a delight. I've learned all about eagle poo and diamonds and all sorts.
58:45 Speaker 06 Eagle guano.
58:47 Greg Jenner? And to you lovely listener.
58:48 Speaker 06 I'm going to move to Tibet now.
58:50 Greg Jenner? Yeah, why not? Why not? I'll come with you. And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we navigate more historical wonders. But for now, I'm off to go and train a bunch of eagles, then chuck some juicy steaks into my local jewellers. I'm going to be rich. Bye.
59:08 Greg Jenner? Your Z to me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.
59:14 Speaker 02 I'm Helena Bonham Carter and for BBC Radio 4, I'm back with a brand new series of History's Secret Heroes. And he tells her that she will be sent to France as a secret agent. She will work undercover and if she is got, she's going to be shot. Join me for more stories of unsung heroes, acts of resistance, deception and courage from World War Two. Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds.
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