The FBI Double Agent Who Targeted the GRU | Naveed Jamali

Naveed Jamali tells the story of how he went from a family business in New York to working with the FBI as a double agent against Russian military intelligence before eventually becoming a Naval Intelligence officer. We also discuss how the Russians recruit assets, the psychological toll of undercover work, encounters with suspected Chinese intelligence, and why counterintelligence still matters today. Today's Sponsors: VAER Watches ⬇️ https://www.vaerwatches.com/theteamhouse get a free watch roll with your purchase. 20% for active duty, veteran, leo, & first responders GhostBed ⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 10% off! Quince⬇️ go to: https://www.quince.com/house for free shipping and 365 day returns Housecall Pro ⬇️ Ready to save time and win more jobs? For a limited time only, our listeners get 50% OFF base plans for their first 3 months at https://HousecallPro.com/HOUSE For ad free video and audio and access to live streams... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ GRAB JACK'S NEW BOOK "THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN" ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/803651/the-most-dangerous-man-by-jack-murphy/paperback/ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured Jack Murphy's book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 – Start 05:24 – How a Future Navy Intel Officer Became an FBI Asset 08:18 – Growing Up Around New York’s Espionage World 10:22 – Why New York Is a Hub for Foreign Intelligence 13:18 – How His Parents Became Involved With the FBI 14:25 – A KGB Officer Walks Into the Family Business 18:04 – Russian Surveillance & Sending a Message 19:15 – Meeting Oleg, the GRU Officer 20:15 – Why the Russians Wanted Open-Source Military Material 22:02 – Robert Hanssen & Rebuilding Russia’s Spy Network 23:40 – Russia’s Long-Term Plan to Cultivate an American Asset 26:32 – 9/11 & Wanting to Join Naval Intelligence 28:21 – Pitching Himself to the FBI 30:24 – Using Counterintelligence Work to Get Into the Navy 34:39 – Designing His Own Double-Agent Operation 36:28 – “Does Oleg Have a Gun?” 39:04 – The Psychological Toll of Living Undercover 39:52 – MICE: Why People Become Spies 44:43 – Convincing the Russians He Was Motivated by Money & Ego 48:30 – Taking the Relationship With Oleg to the Next Level 51:06 – Moving the Spy Meetings Out of the Office 52:28 – When Russia Started Tasking Him for Intelligence 53:31 – Walking Into Northrop Grumman for the FBI 55:03 – How Dangerous Was the Operation? 57:05 – Russian Intimidation After the Operation 59:03 – A Suspicious Encounter With Russia Today 1:02:04 – A Russian Approach Targeting a National Security Journalist 1:06:06 – Intelligence Agencies & the Press 1:09:29 – Influencers, Propaganda & Russian Money 1:12:22 – Being Surveilled by Suspected Chinese Intelligence 1:15:29 – A Surveillance Vehicle Outside His Home 1:17:06 – Why Chinese Intelligence Was Interested in Him 1:19:05 – The Counterintelligence Threat From China 1:23:28 – Showing Oleg a Sensitive Government Database 1:25:08 – The Russian Thumb Drive That Nearly Blew Everything Up 1:26:20 – The FBI Turns on Him 1:27:13 – Setting the Final Trap for Oleg 1:31:24 – The Arrest Plan Goes Sideways 1:37:48 – Finally Learning How Big the Operation Really Was 1:40:27 – How the Operation Disrupted Russian Intelligence Collection 1:41:27 – What Happened to Oleg 1:44:22 – The FBI Helps Him Become a Naval Intelligence Officer 1:46:24 – Telling the Spy Story Inside a SCIF 1:48:25 – How a Chance Encounter Led to How to Catch a Russian Spy 1:50:39 – Balancing a Media Career With Naval Intelligence 1:53:20 – The Mental Cost of Undercover Work 1:56:42 – When the Stress Finally Caught Up With Him 1:58:22 – Life After Intelligence & Journalism 2:00:17 – Flying the B-2, B-1 & B-52 2:02:42 – Why Deterrence Still Matters 2:05:18 – Flying on America’s Doomsday Plane 2:07:32 – Knowing When It’s Time to Pass the Torch 2:10:38 – Closing Thoughts Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:39Jack Murphy?

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• 1:02Jack Murphy?

  What's going on?

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• 3:31Jack Murphy?

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• 4:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 4:07Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy, and we are happy to have in studio another guest. Today, it's Navid Jamali. He is the author of How to Catch a Russian Spy, which is about some of your misspent youth, I think, when you were working with the FBI to help them, help the counterintelligence guys catch a Russian spy here in New York. And then you went on to have a career as a naval intelligence officer, and now you work in journalism.

• 4:37Speaker 05

  Indeed.

• 4:37Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 4:38Speaker 05

  It's, I mean, that's the Cliff Notes. It was, we were talking a little before we started, just sort of our path to the military, and mine was very much a non-traditional one. So I, I really, I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be a spy, but it's this funny thing, Jack, where it's like, you know, I had wanted to get into the Navy as an intelligence officer. I applied once, didn't get in, and I thought, like, if I applied again, I had this great recruiter who was like, hey, you can apply again, you just have to show some growth in your resume. And I know there's a lot to go into here, but basically, I had this harebrained idea that if I helped the FBI with the Russians, I could literally use it as something to put on my resume to show that I had intelligence experience.

• 5:21Jack Murphy?

  And to my surprise, that actually panned out for you somehow.

• 5:25Speaker 05

  It was, it was a nightmare. And I can tell you, once, I mean, I can tell everyone now, once I got into the Navy, what I realized is that these agencies don't like to play nice. So my whole thing, when, before the book came out, is if anyone asked, and no one would, because they would have no idea that I did this, I was very much, I was involved in this, this thing, and I didn't disclose it, but the standard line was, I was involved in a successful counterintelligence operation, and then I'd pull out an FBI card and say, if you have any questions, here's who you need to talk to. And that's all I'd say. And we were just talking about SF86s. So when I got into the Navy and I was doing my TS, I disclosed foreign contact under official, but it was under official government, like,

• 6:09Speaker 05

  direction. And the Navy, of course, like, well, tell us more. And the FBI was like, we're not telling you shit. And so I got stuck in this, like, ping pong between these two massive agencies. And it was this really funny thing in that, you know, when I was doing operational work, I'm sure it's like this in any, like, you know, special forces team, it's a small group. And so you have a lot of freedom. But then when you get to, like, back to headquarters, the big headquarters element, it's the exact opposite. And so I was not used to operating in this very structured.

• 6:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:39Speaker 05

  And, man, it did not, yeah, you'd think that, like, counterintelligence experience would pan out, but, like, my first assignment in the military was to handle merchant, like, a merchant ship database. Had nothing to do with counterintelligence. So I felt like I had this vision that I was gonna come in, do, like, CI. Did not pan out that way.

• 7:03Jack Murphy?

  So, you know, to take it back in time a little bit, you and I are kind of from, like, the same area, which is, which is interesting. As I was reading your book this week, you lived on 112th Street at one point.

• 7:17Speaker 05

  I lived on 112th Street when I was going to school, because your parents were academics. I was going to Columbia, so I lived in student housing. You lived in Hastings on Hudson. That's right.

• 7:30Jack Murphy?

  I lived in Sleepy Hollow. So, like, a lot of the places, like,

• 7:33Speaker 05

  You were, like, 10 degrees of separation.

• 7:35Jack Murphy?

  Your business was in Dobbs Ferry.

• 7:37Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 7:38Jack Murphy?

  I went to Mercy College my first year in Dobbs Ferry. So, I mean, yeah, it's just very funny reading about, and on top of that, reading from a new perspective, because these are like, this is like my hometown and where I grew up. And I didn't know that there was all this, like, espionage shit taking place right where we live. And so your book kind of shined a light on that.

• 8:00Speaker 05

  It's funny, you know, I think there's, there's, there's a part about this that I think a lot of people don't know, but it comes to, I'm sure someone will fact-check me on that, there's an international law that dictates the movement of diplomats. And basically, you can move within a 50-mile radius of your embassy or consulate without the host nation's prior approval. So I mention that because the Russians that we dealt with were at the Russian missions to the United Nations, which is on the east side. And so my parents' business was essentially as a defense contractor, and they were supplying the government with books, and it was very unexciting. But because they were a defense

• 8:42Speaker 05

  contractor, and because they fell within this 50-mile radius, I think that's why the Russians targeted us. And they can move and come and go without, obviously, asking for prior approval from the, from, you know, the U.S. government. And so, yeah, Westchester Falls within that zone. So if you look at where the embassies and consulates are, and just draw a 50-mile radius, you can assume that

• 9:04Speaker 05

  There are going to be foreign intelligence officers that are operating within that radius.

• 9:07Jack Murphy?

  And I mean, it's worth pointing out to people who aren't aware, that UN mission is like spy central.

• 9:13Speaker 05

  Oh, gosh.

• 9:13Jack Murphy?

  Um, because obviously all of these different diplomats from different countries are there. We have all these consulates in New York City.

• 9:22Jack Murphy?

  And, uh, I mean, it's, uh, and also the CIA has a huge station. Um, they won't talk about it.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  Of course not.

• 9:29Jack Murphy?

  But they have a huge station in New York and it, uh, they're by law, they can't spy on Americans. They're not there for that. They're there for all of these foreign nationals. Um, and that's a great place for them to try to recruit people, to stop them from spying, as you know. Uh, lots of things that they're involved.

• 9:47Speaker 05

  New York City is a cosmopolitan place. It will always, you know, they say that espionage is the second oldest profession. And the days of AI and technology, I don't think, you know, it's going to go away. I think tactics will change.

• 10:00Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 10:00Speaker 05

  You know, the, but the profession of like meeting someone in person, it's becoming more and more important, right? Because with AI, with someone being behind a computer screen, you don't know who they are.

• 10:14Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 10:15Speaker 05

  And so the Russians were trained in like really this old art of every time I met with them, they were assessing, assessing me. They were trying to, you know, determine whether I was legit, whether I was lying. And, and, you know, Jack, one of the fascinating things about this is that people always assume when they hear, I was a double agent, I was a spy, that like you're inherently a liar. And the fascinating thing for a lot of people is that, no, I never lied to the Russians. In fact, if they had asked me if I was working for the FBI, I probably would have told them, yes. They just never did because they were really good at assessing if you were lying. And like, they would do these things where they would ask a question, a mundane question on this form. Who was the, you know, who was your sponsor?

• 11:01Speaker 05

  And then six months later, ask the same question on page 12, block C, who was your sponsor? And the way that I look at this is that if you're lying about that really small thing, or there's a, like perceivable difference in your answer, then they can't trust you. And all they'll do is, I mean, you know, they'll just, that's it. You're done with them. They're just going to walk away. So it was, um, it was really challenging in, in doing that. And, you know, for me, taking even a further step back, um, so we talk about Westchester, right? So, uh, my parents, both immigrants, father is Pakistani, mother's French.

• 11:41Speaker 05

  And I always assumed later on that like the reason the Soviets actually targeted my parents was because of that. You know, they assume here in this country that someone who's a new American is more malleable to be, right? And, um, it, it, but I grew up like hearing these stories because my dad, I think downplayed it.

• 12:04Jack Murphy?

  Can you tell us?

• 12:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 12:06Jack Murphy?

  This story about like your, your parents were academic.

• 12:08Speaker 05

  Yep, yep, yep.

• 12:09Jack Murphy?

  They started a, uh, research service essentially. And this is prior to the internet and everything.

• 12:15Speaker 05

  This is like the 1980s.

• 12:16Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 12:16Speaker 05

  This is like the height of the Cold War, height of Reagan, right? And so my, my dad was a PhD in philosophy of all things. And my mom was also an academic and they, dad had worked for the NYPD, done all these like, um, they decided to start this research business. And it, it exactly as you start, it said, like back then people would, law firms would pay people to go to libraries. And they started moving out to selling books and selling books as a federal contractor. So West Point or any, any, um, federal agency that wanted to train would buy books. And rather than going from a syllabus, like 15 different publishers, they'd come to them.

• 12:56Speaker 05

  Because government work is, is always like incredibly bureaucratic and for a play, you have to be certified. Anyway, so there's this interesting, um, book selling business of the federal government.

• 13:08Speaker 05

  In, they were on 59th street, so midtown Manhattan. And, uh, one day in the late eighties, this man walked into their office and they weren't a bookstore. They were like an office. So they didn't really get foot traffic.

• 13:22Jack Murphy?

  Traffic coming through, yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 05

  Yeah. So this guy walks in and he says he wants to speak to my dad. And sits down with my father and says like, you know, my name is Alex Tomakin. I work at the, the UN mission. I work at the UN. And it was sort of vague, showed my father a business card. But then the way that my father would tell, like took the card away, wouldn't actually give him the card, showed it to him like a, which is already weird, right?

• 13:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 05

  Yeah. And, um, it basically says like, I'm at the UN and I want to buy some books. My father's like, okay, well, what kind of books? He's like, oh, nuclear disarmament, things like that. And he's like, well, what do you do at the UN? He's like, oh, I work on, on those types of issues. And he's like, well, how's business going like that? So they're just kind of BSing and, um, guy gave, uh, Tomakin gave my father a list of books. Looked academic, you know, wasn't anything classified, anything that would like raise any suspicions. And, um, I said, oh, okay, great. I'll get these. Uh, where do you want me to ship them to? And he said, no, no, I'll come back in a couple of weeks. And with that, he left.

• 14:29Speaker 05

  And my, my dad's just thinking as, as against, as he would tell the stories, like, you know, they had to, they had to hustle to get a, a customer. And here they just had someone come in and like literally throw cash on the table. And so he's like, oh, this is great. And he went back to work. And then literally like 10, 15 minutes later, there was a knock on the door and two more men came in, dressed like literally like in trench coats and they're like, uh, they showed my dad a picture of the man of Tomakin's. Do you know this man? I was like, yeah, he was just here. They were like, well, this is a, this guy's a KGB officer. What did he want? And my dad was like, just to buy some books. And they're like, and he's like, you want to see the list of books? And I said, yes. Show them the list of books. And he said, what do you want me to do? And they said, get him his books.

• 15:14Speaker 05

  And he said, if he comes back, we'll be back. And so that started this wild relationship, Jack, where it was like between the FBI, the Soviets and my parents. And my parents, they'd been hippies, like they wanted, they wanted to help their new country, but they didn't want to help too much.

• 15:29Jack Murphy?

  I found it funny when you mentioned in your book how you're like, your dad is a trained in ethics.

• 15:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:34Jack Murphy?

  But he had no problem with it. He's like, ah, fuck, I'll, I'll help the FBI.

• 15:37Speaker 05

  But, but to a degree, because the whole thing with him is in his mind, as long as like, they would be like, can we take you out to dinner? And he's like, no, no, it's okay. Like I will help my new country, but only this much. Like I'm not going to form a personal relationship. And the Russians too, like they, they would offer and, and listen, it was this wild thing. He just sort of found it like exciting and funny. He found this whole thing like ridiculous, right? We, and so like, he would tell me, like, we would, we would sit around the dinner table and be like, this is what just happened. And we'd be like, this is absurd. It just seemed like a comedy of absurdity. I learned later that like, there was a, you know, sort of a sinister element to it, which is, I was a young kid.

• 16:16Speaker 05

  And like, again, the Russian, the Soviets had come to my parents' office, like, and they're pre-internet, no, you know, I, how you found information out about people back then is I can only imagine. But like there are times where we would, uh, my father, I remember very famously being at our local A and P, little supermarket in town, walking in with, you know, the, the cart and, uh, one of the Russians just walked right by him. And then there's other times we'd be outside like raking and they'd drive by the house. And my father would point it out and make fun of it, but I understood much later that that was like a way of them telling us, we know where you live.

• 16:57Jack Murphy?

  They want you to know that.

• 16:58Speaker 05

  Yeah. They're very purposefully.

• 17:00Jack Murphy?

  Harassing surveillance.

• 17:01Speaker 05

  Yes, yes. And also the Russians, again, as, as I learned, I've dealt with the Chinese intelligence as well in later life, but very different modus and the Russians, you know, it's all about posturing. It's all about mind fucking people. It's all about leverage. And they're, um, they're some scary motherfuckers, to be honest with you.

• 17:25Jack Murphy?

  And as this relationship went on, it survived the fall of the Soviet.

• 17:29Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 17:30Jack Murphy?

  Continued on through, survived nine 11 happens and everything else. Um, and I think you say in the book how obviously these KGB officers, and then later probably GRU guys.

• 17:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:43Jack Murphy?

  Are being cycled in and out of the UN mission every three years. Um, and you, you point out that most of them were like pretty personable, articulate.

• 17:51Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 17:52Jack Murphy?

  They could talk to you. They had some culture.

• 17:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:54Jack Murphy?

  Um, but then this one guy comes in, Oleg.

• 17:57Speaker 05

  Oleg.

• 17:58Jack Murphy?

  Who is like the opposite of that.

• 17:59Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, he was very smart. The way I explain it, Jack, I think is important for them to understand that if you're in Russian intelligence and you're, you know, you're, even though we were focused on the war on terror, the Russians never lost sight of us.

• 18:16Jack Murphy?

  The main enemy.

• 18:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, the main enemy. That's exactly right. And so, um, if you were going to climb up the ladder for the GRU or the SVR or any of that, you're coming to the United States. Like the best of their best are the ones that come here. So again, um, kind of moving forward, you're right, like the relationship with the Soviets. Once the Soviet Union collapsed, it was a few years, but then the GRU just came right back. Same thing, just different, like same salad, different dressing, right? Um, and they're, the GRU is Russian military intelligence. And they're, the books that they're buying, they're interested in military content. You know, they're buying maps and shit.

• 18:58Jack Murphy?

  The, the way that relationship kind of panned out, at least initial, until you came around, I guess, it, they really were looking for like open source material.

• 19:06Speaker 05

  Yes, yes.

• 19:06Jack Murphy?

  And maybe they'd try to slip something classified in there.

• 19:09Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 19:09Jack Murphy?

  Your parents are like, hey, we don't have access to this.

• 19:11Speaker 05

  That's right. That's right. So they would, you know, I, I think people would want to know, why wouldn't they just go to Barnes and Noble or Amazon to get this stuff? And back then there was export control. So this material was not allowed to be sold outside the United States. Um, again, might sound silly, but again, pre-internet or, or early internet days. And again, learned much later that, you know, that there's a saying, which is you're, uh,

• 19:38Speaker 05

  Your enemies may know what information you want, but your friends, you know, what you, what your friends know is what you need. And it's that fact that like, if they're looking for a book on metallurgy or like aluminum welding, whatever it might be, our intelligence community can look at that and say, well, this is a gap. This is something they're trying to do because they don't have this.

• 20:01Jack Murphy?

  Right, right, right.

• 20:02Speaker 05

  So just, but they, you know, there's two things. One is by doing it with my parents, they believe that what they were looking for was being protected from the US intelligence. But I think it's the second part, which is probably much more likely, is that intelligence, as I learned, is like, you know, it's like being a cop writing parking tickets. If you don't bring in X amount of sources or X amount of pieces of information, you're not doing your job.

• 20:30Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 20:30Speaker 05

  And so my parents were easy to get books that could mark as like, we talked to a source and look what we got.

• 20:36Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:37Speaker 05

  And even though it was like-

• 20:37Jack Murphy?

  I did something.

• 20:38Speaker 05

  Exactly. Even though you could just go to freaking Barnes Noble back then and just buy the book, it was viewed as like, I'm sure, you know, like check the box. Interestingly enough-

• 20:48Jack Murphy?

  And it's low risk.

• 20:48Speaker 05

  Low risk.

• 20:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 20:50Speaker 05

  And, uh, you know, um, the whole thing with Robert Hanson, which was right before, so Robert Hanson was a FBI special agent who worked in counterintelligence, who was famously working, one of the worst turncoats working for the Russians. We think that because my parents were so relatively low level, that when Hanson was arrested and I'm sure disclosed a lot of the Russian, the assets the Russians were using, um, and even the time when he was feeding the Russians who were US assets, my parents were so low that he probably never disclosed who they were. So there was this point in early 2000, um, when Hanson came in with, again, the Russian network had to be rebuilt.

• 21:29Jack Murphy?

  Interesting.

• 21:29Speaker 05

  And so I think I came in just on this all, I knew none of this, right? So, but I probably came in at that time, it was the right time. Like they were probably hungry to rebuild their network. Oleg, who was very smart, but like you said, very rough. He came from like Vladivostok, I think. He was not the, probably like the, you know, son of some oligarch.

• 21:51Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 21:51Speaker 05

  He was more-

• 21:52Jack Murphy?

  He was like a, uh, was he a submarine officer?

• 21:54Speaker 05

  He was a, so, he, I mean, he wore the submarine pin. Um, he, yeah, he'd been a submariner, but I think, you know, some mariner, he'd been, but he also been to like Turkey. I think he'd been an intelligence officer for a very long time. And he was very good at what he did. I mean, he, there were some really impressive, you know, it was like mental combat when you're talking to these guys. Um, but he was, was also super fucking arrogant. And I think, and he was so excited that he, you know, they knew that the Russians knew that I was applying to the Navy. And that became a really big thing. They were like, we're gonna, you know-

• 22:25Jack Murphy?

  You use that to kind of sell yourself to them.

• 22:26Speaker 05

  A hundred percent. And I remember, still have this crazy chart that the Russians gave me that was handwritten, that showed every clearance up to the president. And they're like, this is where you'll be, this is where you'll get, you know?

• 22:36Jack Murphy?

  Because when they recruit an asset, the first thing they want to do is get him promoted up the hierarchy.

• 22:40Speaker 05

  A hundred percent.

• 22:41Jack Murphy?

  Get them more access.

• 22:42Speaker 05

  It's a long-term relationship, right?

• 22:43Jack Murphy?

  Uh, that, that was one of the most, I think, like impressive things that I, I read as far as what the Russians were trying to do.

• 22:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:49Jack Murphy?

  That they're trying to cultivate you as a very young man.

• 22:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:52Jack Murphy?

  With the idea that you would go places in, you know, 20, 30 years down the line.

• 22:57Speaker 05

  It's crazy to think that, but like, that's what I say is in this, in this world of AI and all, and all this other stuff, like basically the way the Russians looked at this is that it's like becoming a made man in the mob. Like you're gonna go through this whole process. And if you watch The Sopranos, like when they talk about Chrissy becoming like a captain and, uh, basically this moment where the Russians were assessing me, once they'd assessed me, they don't have to necessarily meet with me in person. They just have to know it's me, because they've already made their assessment. And so this part is really, really important because, you know, um, with technology, there's just a lot of ways to obviously move things around and do so in a way that's, you're not like doing necessarily

• 23:41Speaker 05

  loading dead drops and meeting with people in person. And I think that is something that has changed. Um, although we can talk about tactics down the, you know, it's, the risk of catching someone in person is like, obviously what's what the FBI wants, what the Russians want to do. And we do the same thing in Moscow, right? Um, that's where you're at the most vulnerable is you're actually meeting with an asset. So it's the most dangerous part of this. And so I think both services, the CIA, other intelligence services-

• 24:14Jack Murphy?

  Want to keep their distance.

• 24:14Speaker 05

  Yeah. But they want, that assessment of understanding and unpacking, A, if you're real, and B, understanding what your motivation is, that's perhaps the most important thing. Because, you know, there's a lot of things you can fake, but like sitting down with someone, you know, unless you're a freaking pathological liar, you're like a complete like sycophant or, you know, most people can't lie, especially after three years like that. If you're, if you're good at that, there's something not right with you.

• 24:45Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 24:46Speaker 05

  And so they're really good at just like sussing out lie. And so the wild thing is like, if I didn't have a cover name, I used my name, everything about me was real.

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• 28:57Jack Murphy?

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• 29:39Jack Murphy?

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• 31:33Jack Murphy?

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• 31:58Jack Murphy?

  So you know from growing up in the stories you hear from your dad that this relationship with the, you know, exists, and that the FBI is kind of watching over their shoulder. Um, tell us about like why you kind of got involved in their business, your parents' business?

• 32:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:14Jack Murphy?

  And like how, like you had, you had like a motive yourself.

• 32:17Speaker 05

  Of course. Yeah. There's got, listen, no one, no one is altruistic. Like, we're always doing something for, that's going to benefit us. And, um, you know, September, we're 25 years of September 11th. I was, I was in Boston at the time of September 11th. But I obviously, like you, I'd grown up in New York, I went to NYU. You know, New York City was like a very important part of my early life. It's this, I don't know how to explain it to an outsider, but it is a place where the son of a Pakistani philosopher who's an atheist and a French Jewish Catholic mom can come together and like, there's not many places where I think I can, you know, New York is

• 33:02Speaker 05

  one of them. So September 11th, obviously, I think, for many of us, but it felt, it really redefined my priorities. At the time, I was working, I was at Harvard, my wife was doing her PhD there, and I was just kind of aimless, maybe? Like, it just felt something was missing? And then 9/11 happened, it was really, we were back in New York, I saw the pile, it was, I mean, it's just all, you know, seared into me. It's like the, really, the first time that I felt something big, and that, this feeling that I, that I was, wanted to be part of something bigger. And, and that's where I, you know, I sort of found this intelligence program with the Navy.

• 33:46Speaker 05

  The funny thing about intelligence is like, everyone thinks it's James Bond, but 90% of it is just like PowerPoint.

• 33:52Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, for the officers especially.

• 33:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, especially. I mean, it's just, even for the, we're enlisted. So I had no idea what it really meant, but it seemed intriguing. I, I applied when I was in Boston. Like I said, didn't get in. And I came with this harebrained idea that the relationship with my parents and the FBI and the Russians, maybe I could use that to have the FBI write me a letter of recommendation. And in fact, when I moved back to New York, came back to, you know, try my hand at the family business, I met with the FBI agents, and I'll never forget, I met at a Dunkin' Donuts across from 26 Fed, which is the big federal building in downtown New York. And I told them this, I was like, "Yeah, I'd like to help you." You know, and they're like, looking at me, and they're like, "They're waiting for, what am I going to ask for in exchange?"

• 34:39Speaker 05

  And I imagine FBI agents are like, ask for like, "I've never paid taxes ever," like, you know, right? Like, "Can you help me out with this? Like, I'm wanted for crossing like..."

• 34:48Jack Murphy?

  If that was, yeah, if that were the case, I'd be asking for their phone number.

• 34:51Speaker 05

  100%.

• 34:52Jack Murphy?

  Maybe you can help me.

• 34:53Speaker 05

  Like, or I transported sheep across state lines, God knows where it is. So, but like, I'm asking them, and they're like, waiting, and I'm like, can you, you know, I, I asked them, I literally asked them, Jack, for a letter of recommendation for the Navy. And they're like, think about the FBI, and they're like, they're very super withholding. It's weird, like parental relationship, and very manipulative. And they're like, I could tell, they had like a reaction on their face, they're like, really surprised that this is all I was asking for. And, um, but they, their answer was like, "We'll look into it and get back to you." And like, that's how this whole thing started. I was like, "Okay, I'm going to do this, they're going to help me get in, I'm going to be able to go to the Navy and be like, 'Look, I worked on real intelligence.'" And it was just the most, in hindsight, like, this stupid idea.

• 35:38Speaker 05

  But I was young, you know, like, what are you, early twenties, didn't know any better. And, uh, but that's how it all started. And then I realized that it turned out to be a really wild adventure that, um, yeah, that just turned into something a lot bigger than I really understood until much, much later.

• 35:56Jack Murphy?

  And so you didn't get into the Navy the first time?

• 35:58Speaker 05

  No.

• 35:59Jack Murphy?

  So the second time, you know, like you were pointing out earlier, you need to show some growth in your resume. Um, and so what was your idea, how to go about that?

• 36:09Speaker 05

  Well, so of course, the FBI, being the FBI, they're like, "We're going to help you, but this is, we can't like put anything in writing, we can have like high level to high..." Like, they just made it so much more difficult. So, um, you know, in the Army, just like in any, there's promotion boards, and there's, you know. So what they would do is, I had to meet with, um, I can say it now, a board at Fort Hamilton. And it was like, they made their assessment.

• 36:34Jack Murphy?

  You're in Brooklyn?

• 36:35Speaker 05

  Yes. Um, the Defense Intelligence Agency was there for many years. So I met with these, you know, three Navy captains, those are 06, 06s, and the FBI trying to help, trying to help me. They met with those same captains before I went in to meet with them. I had this great recruiter, Julie Schmidt, still around, she's retired, love her to death, I've actually reconnected with her. So she facilitated this meeting. So I was supposed to, I, I don't remember what time, let's say it's 1:00 PM, I'm going to meet with them. The two FBI agents that I'm working with met with the group at noon. And while they never told me what they said, this is what I assessed they said.

• 37:15Speaker 05

  They said, they went up to these captains, they're like, "We got this guy, he's really good, we can't tell you what he's working on, but his name is Naveed Jamali." And then they left. And so I walk in, and there's these like captains, they're looking at me like, "What the fuck was that?" And I'm like, I realized that these fucking FBI agents, these, these captains think I was involved in like some terrorist thing, they thought that I got like arrested trying to buy a rider, like ammonia nitrate in a rider van, because everyone's about counterterrorism right now. You're Naveed Jamali, and they assume...

• 37:46Jack Murphy?

  You're working, yeah.

• 37:47Speaker 05

  Counterterrorism, they assume terrorism. And so I had to tell the FBI, I was like, "Guys, you got to stop doing this, because you're really making it a lot harder for me. People assume I'm a fucking terrorist." Um, and they're like, "Ah." But yeah, so that second time, you know, I don't know exactly what happened, because again, a lot of this was opaque to me. But we, we worked with it, and it wasn't until the operation ended that I got my commission. So I did this for, uh, for three years. I mean, it was really an intense three years, and the, the dangling carrot for me at the end of this was to get into the military, which, again, in hindsight, Jack, like, man, I should have asked for like one federal crime, like regicide or something, like, there's,

• 38:32Speaker 05

  should have asked for something, something more, but, um, yeah, it, it, and then, of course, uh, again, small teams, you really don't understand how like secret and sensitive what you're doing is, because it's just you and two other guys. And, um, once I got out and kind of got into the real intelligence world, I realized this is something pretty unique. Um, and you know, that, uh...

• 39:01Speaker 05

  Listen, there's a lot of people, obviously, do some pretty amazing things that can never be told for a lot of reasons. I'm lucky enough that I was able to, you know, not only come off, come out of this on top, but also be able to share the story. It really is an insight into what I think. There are a lot of people on a daily basis that, you know, not just, not just CIA officers and FBI agents. They get all the glory, but they're not the ones that, you know, they're meeting with the people that are actually doing the work for them. It's the assets that are risking their lives, risking their family lives and, you know. There's a lot of people that are just now are helping our country because they, for whatever reason, they believe.

• 39:42Speaker 05

  I do, and it sounds quaint that they believe in this idea of democracy, they believe in this idea of America. And they're not doing it for money, they're doing it for some, you know, higher personal reason. Sure, some of them are doing it for money and other things, of course, it's an easy thing, but there are, there are some, you know, true believers. And, um, yeah, I just. To me, though, it's all comedy, like it just, I look at some of the stuff and I'm like. How the hell were we able to do this? Like, how did they just let us just do it?

• 40:12Jack Murphy?

  I mean, it was interesting in this case that like, it wasn't really the FBI pitching you, it was more you pitching the FBI.

• 40:17Speaker 05

  Oh, God, I was like so into it.

• 40:19Jack Murphy?

  At least in the initial part of it. I mean, what, what was your pitch to them? What did you want to do?

• 40:24Speaker 05

  It's a really good question, man. So, you know, it's all innovation, right? And, um.

• 40:33Speaker 05

  I was trying to come up with an idea that would make sense for what I'm doing, right? So the only direction the FBI would give me, much to their credit, was like, if you were a real spy, how would you do this? And I, I ran with that, like I ended up going to like State Department training and all this other stuff and, you know, it was. So I came up with this idea that through the company, we had access to certain material and. Ended up going to Northrop Grumman at one point and in Long Island to get like, I remember getting these giant NATOs for the F-14 back then and like. Giving them to the Russians and, um, so a lot of it became like. Getting information and access to stuff that would make me valuable.

• 41:16Speaker 05

  And the FBI was like, yeah, man, just do what you need to do. We'll, we'll, we'll let you, we'll let you run with it. And I think it was so harebrained that when the Russians looked at this, they were like, this is so wild that it can't be the FBI. Because the FBI is so unimaginative. They're like, you know, this, in fact, funny footnote.

• 41:37Speaker 05

  Years later, I ran into a colleague, um, actually someone I went to high school was a few years older, turned out to be an Apache pilot. And, uh, the FBI had pitched him this many years later, the same idea to basically for him to set up a book business. Cause he had contact with a Russian intelligence officer in DC. So like.

• 41:55Jack Murphy?

  They wanted to repeat the formula.

• 41:56Speaker 05

  Yeah. And it's like, come on, guys, like, that's not gonna work again.

• 41:59Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 05

  And of course it didn't.

• 42:02Speaker 05

  So it was, um. Yeah, again, much to the FBI's credit, they really let me run, run with this and I think because it was so. Non-traditional, man, they just, Russians didn't know what to do with it.

• 42:14Jack Murphy?

  Some of the conversations between you and the FBI sound very funny because, well, for a couple of different reasons, but one of them is like. I get the sense, especially initially, they didn't want to direct you.

• 42:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 42:25Jack Murphy?

  So they're just sort of like asking a question and leaving like, use your imagination here, Nev, like.

• 42:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:31Jack Murphy?

  You know, how, how would you go about this or that?

• 42:35Speaker 05

  Yeah. So I mean, one of the big questions I would always ask them, I'd be like, hey, does Oleg have a gun?

• 42:39Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 05

  And they'd be like, well, what do you think? I'm like, no, no, no, no.

• 42:43Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, who gives a shit what I think?

• 42:45Speaker 05

  I wanna know, does he, like, if I'm gonna go into a fucking building with him where there's no one around, am I gonna get shot? And they're like, what do you think he'd do? And I'm like, I, it was like, it was, so yeah, I mean, clearly again, now understanding, um. Two reasons, obviously. Interestingly enough, I was creating intelligence, I was an actual producer of intelligence. Even though I was producing that intelligence, um, once it was handed to the FBI, it now became classified intelligence. So even though I had no clearance and I was producing this, I couldn't, there's things I couldn't see or know. And obviously one of them was like the tactics and some of the classified information about how the Russians operate. There was a second reason, um. I remember one time sitting with the FBI and we were talking about Oleg.

• 43:28Speaker 05

  And they mentioned that he was a really big, he was really big into swimming, like that was his workout thing. And there was like a pause. And the agent said, he never told you about that, right? And I was like, no, he's like, you can never repeat that because.

• 43:45Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, how would, how would?

• 43:46Speaker 05

  How would you know, right? So everything was so. Like it was, it was wild, Jack, because it's, it's like. It's like having an Uber mother-in-law, because everything you say is gonna be taken and examined and like context and what does it mean? And I imagine the Russians did the same thing, like I'm sure they're recording everything and I'm sure that like. They're looking for any changes, they're looking for any variation in what you're saying. And again, something, it's. You know, it's the little things. If I had mentioned that, that Oleg was a big swimmer, he would have been like, well, how do you know that?

• 44:19Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 44:20Speaker 05

  Or even if he said nothing, he would have just taken that back and they would have picked up on it.

• 44:24Jack Murphy?

  And you, I mean. Like you said, not, not a pathological liar, but you did play a character with him.

• 44:33Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 44:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 44:33Speaker 05

  That's right. So you couldn't lie. But like, he didn't know why I was there, right? I was there because I wanted to get into the Navy. But that's not, and there was like, I was telling him that, he, there was truth to that, but that's. You know, that was really my end game and, and you start doing stuff, Jack, when you're working undercover. It's like, it's really easy to get lost. Like it's really easy to lose that center and that direction. And so that like North Star for me was always like, hey, at some point I'm gonna get out, I'm gonna get this career and I'm gonna do this like above board and legitimate. But what I figured out very early on is the Russians knew who I was, right? They'd see me as a young boy, cause of my dad.

• 45:15Speaker 05

  So they knew I was a real person, wasn't just someone that just magically appeared.

• 45:19Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 45:20Speaker 05

  But what they.

• 45:21Jack Murphy?

  Out of Quantico.

• 45:22Speaker 05

  Exactly, exactly. What they didn't know was like why I was doing this, why did I wanna do this? And, you know, I, at the time I'd consumed a lot of books about and a lot of information about this, trying to understand, watched a lot of movies. And, um, I came across this acronym called MICE.

• 45:39Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 45:39Speaker 05

  That MICE has to do with like the motivation for why people generally spy.

• 45:45Speaker 05

  Really interesting thing, why someone will betray their country, why, you know, there's a whole psychology behind that. But MICE stands for money, ideology, coercion and ego. And what I found is that the coercion part, people think that if you blackmail or threaten someone.

• 46:01Speaker 05

  You know, you're gonna do just enough to kind of.

• 46:03Jack Murphy?

  I've talked to CIA people who are like, we don't really do that because. The, I mean, the, the problem is if you're coercing a person, is that asset gonna lure you into an ambush?

• 46:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, hundred percent.

• 46:13Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 46:14Speaker 05

  They're not loyal, there's no, there, there's gotta be a benefit to them.

• 46:17Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 46:18Speaker 05

  So the much, the much more beneficial, like, I, I've talked to people that were recruited by, you know. The hell was his name? He's long since gone, but he was in the first Trump admin, he was a former naval officer, Carter? Anyway, um, but he turned out to, like, he turned out to be crazy. They, they have a lot of people that show up and like, we wanna help you. And the Russians are like, nah, yeah, we don't, if someone approaches us.

• 46:43Jack Murphy?

  Oh, like walk-ins?

• 46:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. And there's just people that are, they're not actually from the FBI, but they're just fucking crazy.

• 46:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, we do that too.

• 46:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, of course, a hundred percent.

• 46:51Jack Murphy?

  We have crazy walk-ins.

• 46:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, it like, yeah, it's just, it's just. Intelligence, the White House, these are beacons for people that are.

• 47:00Jack Murphy?

  And so walk-ins set, set off like all the, you know, red lights.

• 47:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:04Jack Murphy?

  Because, you know, that this person is a dangle, that they are a civil agent.

• 47:08Speaker 05

  Exactly, exactly. So it's either they're, but the other part is that there's actual people who are fucking crazy.

• 47:12Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 47:13Speaker 05

  Like legitimately crazy.

• 47:14Jack Murphy?

  I mean, arguably fucking, when I hear some of the stuff these guys did, like some of the stuff Hanson did, it's fucking crazy.

• 47:20Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:21Jack Murphy?

  I talked to, we were, uh, interviewed a, uh, retired FBI agent, counterintelligence guy who was on the periphery of that. And like, his whole part of that was they knew an FBI guy came to the consulate, I think it was a consulate, not an embassy. In like 1985 or whatever like that and was sitting there in that room. And this journalist had seen this FBI agent sitting there, so like they knew that whoever that guy is. That American, he's the one that's spilling these secrets.

• 47:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:53Jack Murphy?

  So they had to identify him, but I mean, again, he walked into the consulate, I mean, that's, that's nuts.

• 47:58Speaker 05

  It's, it's this, you know, there's this weird thing where, again, it's like so much ego is in this, especially for dudes.

• 48:04Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:05Speaker 05

  And, and the funny thing about intelligence and counter.

• 48:06Jack Murphy?

  Narcissism.

• 48:07Speaker 05

  Narcissism, absolutely. It's, it's like, I think when you're playing a game where the game is to never actually win, right? You can, you can like, it's like to be constant stalemate, right? Because if, the whole thing with this is that.

• 48:23Jack Murphy?

  Unless you're gonna defect, I mean, what the hell are you doing?

• 48:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, but like, the whole thing with intelligence and counterintelligence is that unless you're going kinetic. You're just trying to keep status quo, right? If you push too hard, then especially in intelligence, then it bleeds through intelligence and becomes like now. The Russians are gonna fucking like launch a missile, right?

• 48:42Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 48:42Speaker 05

  There's this careful balance, you wanna stop, but you don't wanna go too far and they know that game too. And I think like playing that where you, and I talked to FBI agents who spent 20 years. Like watching their Russian adversaries from like a mile away.

• 48:57Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:57Speaker 05

  And it's like, the fact that I got to sit down and talk to them and touch them and like, you know, do all sorts of crazy shit with them, it's like. It's like a wet dream for them because they never, they, it's, but they never get it.

• 49:09Jack Murphy?

  They don't use them as like the undercover guy.

• 49:11Speaker 05

  That's right. And I think that fucks with people. I legitimately think that at a certain point.

• 49:15Jack Murphy?

  Like you pointed out, the CIA, I mean, the case officer, you're like the social worker for the asset.

• 49:20Speaker 05

  That's right. That's a great way to put it. But yeah, and I think that, I think for some people, that's really hard. Like it's really hard to be the coach and not the player.

• 49:29Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 49:30Speaker 05

  Right? And, and so for someone like, like I said, the psychology stuff is fucking fascinating. For someone like Hanson, who has this giant, who has this giant ego, I think that like it was probably really hard for him to not, you know, and, and.

• 49:43Jack Murphy?

  Ames also, giant ego and an alcoholic.

• 49:46Speaker 05

  And, and they all think, it's funny, they all think that they're doing, they're actually helping. They justify their helping the agency or the.

• 49:53Jack Murphy?

  Well, when you become a snitch, like the, the. mentality, there's something that happens inside their brains.

• 49:59Speaker 05

  Well, they justify.

• 50:00Jack Murphy?

  Mental gymnastics.

• 50:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, and and it's like, so getting back to your question, like for me, I'm none of these things. But I know that the Russians have a profile of like what makes sense. And so what I came up with from that mice acronym was, again, I can't use coercion.

• 50:17Speaker 05

  I think Oleg asked me once, I'm not like religious. He asked me once about ideology, about like, he's like, oh, how do you feel about God? And I was like, yeah, man, I'm not.

• 50:24Jack Murphy?

  What's your stance on communism?

• 50:26Speaker 05

  That's right, exactly. And I was like, I'm not fucking talking to you about that. And and then I realized, you know, again, I had this Corvette, I was this young kid. It was really easy to just focus on the last, the first and last, money and ego. And so a lot of my conversations with the Russians were like, and it was awesome. I'm not gonna lie, this is one of the best parts, it'd be like, fuck you, pay me money now. And as and I felt that as long as they probably had some profile that, you know, young Americans are only care about money.

• 50:51Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:52Speaker 05

  And so as long as I kept playing that for them, they're like, yeah, yeah, this is fucking real, we understand this. This guy just wants money. And the Russians are so fucking cheap. Like, I remember going and being like, I want forty thousand dollars a month. And they're like, I'll give you three thousand dollars right now. I'm like, fuck you, like, I could go to jail for this, I want forty grand.

• 51:12Jack Murphy?

  It was really funny too how, and I didn't know it was done quite like this, but it makes sense when I read it in your book. That Oleg would pay you, then you would have to give the money to the FBI. The FBI, you know, takes a receipt. And then they pay you the money, they pay FBI money to you. Because, and I I think that was for your protection.

• 51:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was, it was because I can't actually be accepting money.

• 51:34Jack Murphy?

  From a Russian, right?

• 51:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, but it was so funny, the funny thing about this, Jack, is that the Russians were completely funding this operation against them.

• 51:40Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 51:41Speaker 05

  Just hysterical. But yeah, that is, it is this, in the middle. That was like a taste of the bureaucracy that I didn't get to see, which was so amazing about this is. It was basically me and and two FBI agents and. Like, who else was involved in it was completely, I had no idea. But then shit like that, you get a sense of like, hey, it's not quite that easy that you can't just do this shit on your own.

• 52:07Jack Murphy?

  So how did you evolve your relationship with Oleg as? You know, they're trying to provide him with intelligence, he wants intelligence, how did you kind of like take it to the next level?

• 52:18Speaker 05

  So there was this moment where.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  Did I, can I tell you about the joke? Like, this is how I knew. Do you remember the story about the joke that I told Oleg?

• 52:28Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 52:29Speaker 05

  So I was young and dumb and I, again, like, I thought everything was just like this big joke, right? And I remember. Oleg would come to my office and my father was still there and he would introduce me to my dad. And again, coming into the office, like, people would see him, you know, we we had moved to Dobbs Ferry at this point in Westchester. And this is the funny part, but there's actually a really important part of this about like how relationship change and move to the next level. So my dad introduced me to Oleg. And what possessed me, but I'm like, let me tell this guy a joke. And so the joke is, is as follows, there's, it's Glasnost.

• 53:10Speaker 05

  And there's two Soviet, like, grandpas standing in in Red Square. Waiting for their daily serving of Borscht. And one of them turns to, Yuri turns to Pavel.

• 53:27Speaker 05

  You know what? This is bullshit. I thought now that Gorbachev was here. We'd be done with these lines, like, everything with capitalism would be, would be changed. He's like, you know what? I'm gonna go fucking shoot Gorbachev. Can you save my spot online? So Yuri goes.

• 53:44Speaker 05

  Gone, you know, two, three, four, five hours, comes back. And he goes up to Pavel. Pavel said, and he said, oh, thanks for saving my spot online. Pavel says. Did you shoot Gorbachev? And he says, no, there was a line for that too. And like, you know, you laugh, Oleg looked at me and he looked terrified. Because basically, it's like, have you seen the videos where there's like the North Korean guys applying for jobs and they try to get?

• 54:08Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:09Speaker 05

  They try to get them to say, you say Kim Jong-un's a fat bastard. So he's probably thinking, I didn't know any of this at the time, because there's rules, I didn't know any of these rules, very early on in the relationship with Oleg. He's thinking if I'm recording him. If I get Oleg saying something negative about the Russian government. We could use that.

• 54:28Jack Murphy?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 54:29Speaker 05

  So he's like, oh, no, I don't know anything about that, I don't, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. He makes a very public display. But in that moment, what Oleg. We had this conversation and basically what he said to me is like, next time we meet, can we meet at a restaurant? And so that subtle thing of moving the relationship that had been going on for twenty years outside of the office.

• 54:51Jack Murphy?

  Right, right, right.

• 54:51Speaker 05

  Directly with me and like him getting my cell phone number. It made it a, it really changed things. And that was, it's funny, Jack, like, at the time, I didn't realize this, but it was a subtle shift. To move and that subtle thing really set everything in motion.

• 55:09Jack Murphy?

  And he really liked meeting at Uno's Pizza.

• 55:11Speaker 05

  And Hooters, Hooters.

• 55:13Jack Murphy?

  Who doesn't like Hooters?

• 55:14Speaker 05

  I mean, yeah, there's, except that, like, it was so.

• 55:18Jack Murphy?

  Can't blame him.

• 55:18Speaker 05

  No, but.

• 55:21Speaker 05

  The only thing with him is it's like, it's like, if you're a twenty-five-year-old kid. And you're going with your gross, like.

• 55:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:29Speaker 05

  Curved uncle, you're like, oh, man, this is just uncomfortable. I remember him being at Hooters and there was like this black waitress and he looks at me and he goes. Oh, look, they even have black ones here. And I'm like, I don't even know what to do to that, like, I don't, what do I?

• 55:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, with Russians, you don't really want to talk to them about black people, Jews. You know, a lot of the Eastern Europe, yeah, you don't.

• 55:48Speaker 05

  No, no.

• 55:48Jack Murphy?

  Just don't talk to them.

• 55:49Speaker 05

  No, and I was told also, like, under no circumstances was I to drink with him.

• 55:53Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:55Speaker 05

  Oh, dude, that like, yeah, that's.

• 55:56Jack Murphy?

  They'll annihilate you.

• 55:58Speaker 05

  So, but that was a big shift and and and from there it really did. You know, I think it kind of removed this barrier of him being like much more honest of what they wanted from us. And I think what the FBI said, it moved from like. He's coming in, up until that, they're giving lists for books and it's very standard. Are they doing anything wrong? It's not really, it's like, it's low level. But here now they're tasking an American citizen to collect intelligence for them.

• 56:26Jack Murphy?

  And they really want you to get classified.

• 56:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's, and that's what they're, and it's a long game. I don't think people understand how, how patient. They will wait years to do this and then when they feel like it's run its course, they're done, they're gone.

• 56:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, walk away.

• 56:41Speaker 05

  That's it. And, you know, it's, it's, it's really a wild thing.

• 56:48Jack Murphy?

  I, but you you mentioned the, the whole part about Northrop Grumman. Was kind of amusing. And I thought it was very, very funny because the FBI had obviously orchestrated this entire thing. And you were like nervous as shit, like, oh, I go in there and what do I say? You tell the, that story.

• 57:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, so, again, like, Jack, I knew none of these rules, right?

• 57:10Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 57:10Speaker 05

  So the FBI, I clearly, like you said, orchestrated this, they drive me out to Long Island, they get in the park and I'm like, all right. You can just walk in there and just get what you can get. And I'm like, okay, do they know I'm coming? They're like, yeah, probably. And obviously what had happened is they were not gonna come in with me because they didn't want to be seen with me and, like, if something went south.

• 57:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they're letting you be the guy.

• 57:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly, I'm fucked, right? But none of this, so they, we, they had, to their credit, they had arranged a meeting, I forget the guy's name, but arranged a meeting with like a. One of their librarians or one of their like archivists and I was able to get documents and we were able, I was able to use my traditional credentials to get that and. The Northrop Grumman, it's funny, years later, Northrop Grumman was our sponsor for, at Newsweek for one of, we, I flew the B2. I had a good laugh with them about this, I actually talked to their C. Was, it's, you know, it was, it was, again, these are the risks, like. The FBI was not, the FBI could have gotten me documents and been like, here. But instead they wanted to make it believable.

• 58:10Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 58:10Speaker 05

  And so they took me out there because again, Oleg would ask, how did you get these?

• 58:13Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 58:14Speaker 05

  What did the building look like? Who did you talk to? But again, if something had gone south, like Northrop Grumman Security had got, the FBI would have been in the wind.

• 58:22Jack Murphy?

  But I mean, obviously, someone at the company knew what was going on and.

• 58:25Speaker 05

  I don't know that they knew what was going on to the extent of it, but they knew that I was coming.

• 58:29Jack Murphy?

  They were willing to play ball with the FBI.

• 58:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, I, again, I don't know who contacted them. The FBI was, listen to their credit.

• 58:38Speaker 05

  You know, it's the circle of trust. If anyone, it's, it's hard to understate this, but. If anyone found out what I was doing, like. You're risking your life, literally, I mean, the Russians, they don't think, take things personally, but they're all about sending messages and. It's a fucking nuclear armed state, like, they're not, I'm a nothing to them, I'm a, I'm a fly on the.

• 59:02Jack Murphy?

  They're probably not gonna whack you, but you didn't really know that.

• 59:05Speaker 05

  No, and and the funny thing, much later on, when I got out and got into the military and I wrote the book. We're talking to some friends who were in various agencies and like, one of my good friends, Chuck.

• 59:19Speaker 05

  He was, he's with a bunch of agencies and talking to like, he's very deadpan. Should I be worried about the Russians? He's like, no. He's like, if anything, they'd probably just subcontract it out to the Bulgarians.

• 59:33Speaker 05

  So when I would go do my book tour in Eastern Europe, in Europe, I was like, just make sure that no fucking Bulgarians that show up.

• 59:39Jack Murphy?

  What the Russians really get butthurt about is their defectors.

• 59:45Jack Murphy?

  You know, you've seen the Polonium.

• 59:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, they, they're.

• 59:48Jack Murphy?

  But that's, that's the sign of message.

• 59:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:50Jack Murphy?

  You're not, you're not safe.

• 59:51Speaker 05

  No, they won't, I mean, that's exactly right. And and the thing with me is people say, aren't you, aren't you worried? And the reality.

• 59:58Jack Murphy?

  Not want to go to Russia.

• 59:59Speaker 05

  No, I, I, even my, I have a seventeen-year-old son, he's like, do you like to travel to Russia?

• 1:00:05Speaker 05

  But like what they, you know, from Russia's, and and I can tell you some, again, some. Postscript of what the Russians have done since the book came out, but I've definitely had run-ins with them. But what they want to do is, like you said, they're all about sending messages. They're also all about checking in to see what's going on, even now. And then, but thirdly, they understand that if I walk out of the studio, Jack, and I get hit by a bus. Ninety percent of the people are gonna assume it's the Russians. So what they don't want to do is they don't want, like, what they'd rather do is like, you know, make sure, I've had.

• 1:00:35Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, do assassinating Americans on. American soil is in escalation, a huge escalation.

• 1:00:40Speaker 05

  And it's not worth it to them.

• 1:00:41Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 05

  But what they will do, which is really interesting, especially in this day and age is like way back when Twitter was first a thing, like I'd see things like. I go on cable news and talk and suddenly I'd have huge amount of followers that follow me and then the next day they just like, so they were fucked, like they troll me in that regard. Like there was definitely shit that they were doing like reputationally. I'd get like, you know, pictures of like poop and stuff, like all sorts of funny. They were definitely doing stuff online and like, you know, like they'd bomb your book review and stuff like that. You can never prove it, but like you assume that that's and, and that's like, that's safe for them. Um, I had things with like Russia today would try to get me to come on and like.

• 1:01:22Jack Murphy?

  Oh, that would have been hilarious.

• 1:01:23Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, that was dude, that was, if you want to hear a crazy story about that, again, postscript, I live in Seattle. At this time I was still in the Navy and I went to the Weston and I did a talk at the Seattle Rotary Club. And, um, they had this huge banquet hall. And prior to that,

• 1:01:43Speaker 05

  Russia Today was trying to get me to come on like crazy. And I would just ignore them. And then finally they said something, I can't remember what it was. And I responded and I was like, and I remember talking to my old FBI case officer, old SAC. He was like, dude, why would you do that? You just gave them a piece of information. Now they know if they ever want to rattle your cage, this is what they have to say. He's absolutely right. Like I let my emotion get into that. So anyway, fast forward, I'm doing this talk in a Weston. And there's probably like a hundred plus people. It's all blue, old blue haired. Finished my talk and a couple of people are asking me and I noticed out the corner of my eye, there's these like really attractive women. And this one dude who looks like, he's got a long pony, he just looks Eastern fucking European.

• 1:02:26Jack Murphy?

  Don't belong.

• 1:02:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, right. And they're just, and I'm like, no one under forty just came to talk, to listen to this talk, right? So I'm talking and walking, might make a way out and I'll look, there's an escalator. And, uh, I'm with my, the guy who brought me there, he's walking and this woman like they're, these two, these three people are pointing at me and obviously talking about me. And she like, beautiful, green, bright green dress, walks in right behind and starts talking to me. He goes, I had a question for you. I just didn't want to ask in front of anyone. I was like, sure, what's up? And she starts going on about like, how come you don't criticize America? Like you talk about Russia's doing this, but America does the same thing. And I'm thinking, yeah, she's fucking recording me.

• 1:03:11Speaker 05

  Like she's trying to get me to say something out of school and they're, and I'm immediately I knew which this was. And, um, she, uh, so we go down, we're walking and there's a bar and she's like, do you want to get a drink? I've got a room here.

• 1:03:25Jack Murphy?

  Jesus.

• 1:03:26Speaker 05

  And I'm like,

• 1:03:26Jack Murphy?

  weighing it on.

• 1:03:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm like, yeah, no, I'm, I'm good. I'm like, um, I'm like, nice to meet.

• 1:03:31Jack Murphy?

  Natasha.

• 1:03:32Speaker 05

  Oh, I know exactly her name. I won't say it. Um, but we got her name.

• 1:03:37Jack Murphy?

  For sure. They, these were people with RT?

• 1:03:40Speaker 05

  No, I don't know who, I mean, no, but I assume that there was a coordinated thing here. I don't think it was coinci- You can never be sure in this world. You can be sure, like the whole thing, the whole thing that we would say is when there's doubt, there is no doubt.

• 1:03:53Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:54Speaker 05

  So like.

• 1:03:54Jack Murphy?

  They wanted to discredit you.

• 1:03:56Speaker 05

  So, yeah, but like, we got, we pulled, I, again, I was in the military, so we, we went 10, I of course reported 10 CIS. Had a friend who was one of the, one of the federal agencies, got the video, I still have it from the Weston, got her name. And dude, she has a, she's still, as far as I know, in Seattle. Um, I periodically look at her Facebook profile. She showed up in 2013. There's nothing before 2013. Her husband says that he works at Microsoft, but who knows? It's just, it's like, you know what she is. She's like.

• 1:04:31Jack Murphy?

  I have a, I have a couple weird stories about that myself.

• 1:04:34Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, and it's, people are surprised that that shit goes on.

• 1:04:37Jack Murphy?

  And, and I have been, uh, approached by RT and press TV in the past and I'm like, I, I, I just don't respond.

• 1:04:44Speaker 05

  You can't.

• 1:04:44Jack Murphy?

  I'm not going on.

• 1:04:45Speaker 05

  And the thing is that even you say anything, anything you say, they just fucking twist it.

• 1:04:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Speaker 05

  So you can't give them anything. Um, but like, yeah, the Russians are fucking, I mean, people don't realize this, but they've been doing propaganda since they were, you know, since fucking Stalin, right?

• 1:04:59Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, since the Bolshevik regime.

• 1:05:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. So.

• 1:05:02Jack Murphy?

  Well, before that even, I mean, during the czarist times, they had a pretty fearsome intelligence.

• 1:05:06Speaker 05

  They fucking invented it. And so they're really, really good at, at that stuff. And it's just, yeah, it's really hard because you can't let your emotions, but like that gives you the sense of the scale of what you're playing with. My one misstep of like being like, fuck you. I, if I'd said nothing.

• 1:05:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they knew they didn't get inside your head.

• 1:05:24Speaker 05

  Now they knew they're like, we know what can fucking rattle this cage. And I remember it was this woman writing me, she's like, what are you scared to come on? I was like, fuck you, I'm not scared. And I, and that was like, I immediately regretted it.

• 1:05:35Jack Murphy?

  I, I had one that's, um, quite clear where I received an email. Uh, I was working in, in journalism and I was reporting a lot about the war in Syria at the time. Got an email from a woman named Natalie who claimed to be working at Interpol. And this long email detailing all of this, uh, you know, basically what she was saying was that the CIA is giving guns to terrorists in Syria.

• 1:05:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:00Jack Murphy?

  And she kind of said all of the right words, but there's no specifics. You know, there's no names, there's no dates, there's no places. And I'm like, this is interesting. She said the right words to me, right? But nothing tangible.

• 1:06:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:17Jack Murphy?

  So I asked her, you know, can you tell me more? Can we meet somewhere? Can we have a cup of coffee? Nothing. Uh, and I had a friend trace the email and the email address pops in St. Petersburg.

• 1:06:28Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 1:06:29Jack Murphy?

  So it was like, yeah, that one's very clear, uh, what they were trying to do. And it, it just makes you wonder like, and man, there's some things that I, I shouldn't say. I'll get sued immediately if I say on, on air here. But I have a strong belief that the Russians specifically target amongst other people, journalists in the national security field.

• 1:06:51Speaker 05

  Of course they do.

• 1:06:53Jack Murphy?

  And I can, I could potentially point to like two or three that like for sure are playing that game.

• 1:07:06Speaker 05

  Name names.

• 1:07:07Jack Murphy?

  It's not a jo-, I mean, it'll be an instant lawsuit and I could improve it in a court of law, I don't think.

• 1:07:12Speaker 05

  But that's the way, you know, that's the thing that people don't understand is that when it comes to counterintelligence, like, you know, it, it, when I was at MSNBC, um, so I know we're kind of bumping all over the place, but when I got out of, uh, I was finished doing that stuff with the FBI, still in the military. One of the reasons I actually left is I got a, I had hired by MS, was now MS Now, MSNBC to do like intelligence analysis. They were looking for, you know, and I, one of the few people that have real experience with intelligence, Russian intelligence. And one of the things I kept explaining to MSNBC was like, guys, counterintelligence doesn't work in the way that the criminal division works. They're not looking to make arrests and having perp walks and shit like that.

• 1:07:52Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. In a lot of cases, like with Oleg, they can't.

• 1:07:54Speaker 05

  They can't. That's right. And, and honestly, something as subtle as being like, hey, we know what you're doing.

• 1:08:01Jack Murphy?

  And that's frustrating for a cop who their entire life is to make an arrest.

• 1:08:05Speaker 05

  You're absolutely, so the kind of people that do this, temperament's really interesting and it's a really, the ones that are really unique and good at this, like it takes a very specific temperament, but you know, it's all about the subtlety. And you could tell the, I, you could tell the Russians are like, you know, just something as something as, something as simple as like showing a picture of someone or leaving a phone number. Like that's enough to like blow an entire operation. Now the Russians or the US, whoever it might be, has to assume that that's compromised. And so do they go on? You don't actually have to arrest someone, right? Cause you're never going to stop Russian intelligence completely. They're always gonna, they're a fucking state.

• 1:08:46Speaker 05

  So it was really hard for traditional media to understand that this isn't like, when it, even with like Hanson, right? Like this stuff is never seen in the daylight in court because there's just too much national security. So they plead guilty to avoid a trial.

• 1:09:00Jack Murphy?

  Uh, uh, that happens within the CIA all the time. Times, people would be shocked if they knew.

• 1:09:06Speaker 05

  Oh, it's, it's, and it's for the good of the country, right? Because you can't just, you don't, you don't want, there's no national security.

• 1:09:12Jack Murphy?

  Also just embarrassment.

• 1:09:14Speaker 05

  Oh, well, that's too, but there is a legitimacy that, you know.

• 1:09:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, that stuff can't come out in open record.

• 1:09:18Speaker 05

  That's right. And, and if someone's gonna go to a jury trial, they have a right to.

• 1:09:22Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:09:23Speaker 05

  For information for the defense, right?

• 1:09:25Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:09:25Speaker 05

  The constitution, we live in a constitution, you know, constitutional democracy. So, um,

• 1:09:31Speaker 05

  uh, again, like that was something that, all this stuff, when you talk about like not understanding, you talk about journalism, you know, listen, it's the same way, you think the US government doesn't pitch journalists in the same way for certain rea-, I mean, I know I've been on the receiving end of it.

• 1:09:47Jack Murphy?

  I don't think they're supposed to, but there's waivers for everything.

• 1:09:51Speaker 05

  It's, and it's not, okay, but it's like, hey, this guy or gal is gonna write a story that's much more pro. Why don't we go to them first?

• 1:10:00Jack Murphy?

  Back during the Cold War, for sure, the agency was placing stories in newspapers around the world. Yeah.

• 1:10:06Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, but, but even now it's like, well, look, I mean, the other thing is journalists, journalists, let's be honest, as I'm sure you know, Jack, it's like the least like most mistrusted, uh, industry at this point.

• 1:10:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. And I, and I mean.

• 1:10:18Speaker 05

  Not without good reason.

• 1:10:19Jack Murphy?

  The, the thing is like, you know, the little.

• 1:10:21Speaker 05

  I was telling you before we started recording is, you know, the, the relationship the intelligence community has with the press in America. I mean, they don't need to recruit you. No. I mean, journalists will like, do it out of love. Yeah. Because like, Yeah, I mean. Feed me information and I'll, I'll write this. Access journalism, baby, right? It's, it's a thing. Yeah, a hundred percent it is. And you know, it's, it, look, I mean, that's a whole other topic and, and, but the other reality is that like, one of the, this funny thing is, is,

• 1:10:54Speaker 05

  when I was doing hard, I don't do hard news for Newsweek anymore. I obviously host a show, which is, it's journalism, but it's storytelling. So we don't do, but there was a point when we were doing that and it was really funny to talk to the Taliban, to talk to their press officer. They have fucking press officers. And we were still in Afghanistan at this time and, um, man, they were so well spoken. And I remember very, there was a great reporter, he's still at Newsweek, name is Tom O'Connor. We would do some crazy stories about, you know, um, Americans being taken hostage and like, we got some really great scoops. Um, in fact, I'm the journalist of record that reported, the first one to report that the last plane had left Afghanistan,

• 1:11:37Speaker 05

  um, with Donahue and, um, but anyway, so we're talking to Taliban and there was a point to Taliban, basically we'd go to them and be like, hey, do you want to give us comment? And they actually said, no, thank you. Uh, like very politely, because they realized that with Twitter and social media, they don't need the press to talk to the general public. Correct. And it was this really like leveling moment where you realize that, you know, The world is changing. The world is changing, even now, like, I mean, you, you have kids, like it's, it's, they all watch, they're all on Instagram. I'm there too. And, you know, it's really challenging because I don't think people understand, like, if you look at what's going on,

• 1:12:18Speaker 05

  yeah, I'm not making this as a non partisan statement, but a statement of fact, but you look at what's going on with, in Gaza, like, there is, I think absolute, or Ukraine, right? Like there's absolute manipulation of, you know, you're not, journalists, news outlets, we have standards when we report things. Not saying that there can't be wrong, can't be biased, but there is a process. We can't just go out and say, as you know, can't just go out and say, there are things I'm sure that you know to be true, but they don't meet that journalistic standards. You can't. Of being triple sourced. Exactly. Yeah. And so you can't say them and just the way it is. But if you're Joe Schmo, the influencer. Right. You can say whatever the fuck you want. And maybe it's true, maybe it's not, you know, who cares?

• 1:13:03Speaker 05

  And also who knows? Does it even matter? Yeah. And, and, and look, I mean, in the first Trump administration, I, very much know this to be true, which is like, you're an influencer, you have a patriot, you know, you have a way to make money and what you realize is when you start talking about certain things, you know, you get more donations and so you keep talking about that. I mean, our boy Tim Poole was like directly taking money. I mean, There you go. I mean, but that's like, that's fucking wild, right? But it shouldn't surprise anyone when that came out. And, you know, for Russia, like a few million dollars. Nothing. It's nothing. Who cares? They make that. And they can, so why wouldn't they go and start indirectly paying influencers to carry their message? I mean, you've, you've seen like, why not? Right? It's,

• 1:13:48Speaker 05

  It's funny about, you know, Dimitri, we've never been approached even. That you know of. I feel, I feel left out. I feel like, you know, what, am I, am I not an eligible bachelor or do you know? Well, that you know of, right? You must get pitched, you know, the whole thing with the Russians, what I noticed after Oleg. So the FBI is so good at like, watching these people, that I suspect that they move to more non traditional, plausible, deniable, like people. And so you don't fucking know. I mean, you can suspect. I'm sure you're a smart guy. Illegals. Yeah. Yeah. And they, and exactly, they're illegals, but they may actually be here legally. Right. Um, there are people that, you know, it's like,

• 1:14:37Speaker 05

  the CIA will do this. They will actually do defensive buys of defense companies or, or companies that the Chinese will try to, that are going public. That's a thing. That is a thing. And, um, you work for a company and you get acquired by another company. You don't know who owns it, but it's a Chinese entity. And suddenly they start pulling, you know, your IP. They'll, I mean, look, there's a whole host of cases where, um, there was a marine Harrier pilot who was recently arrested because he was in Australia, but then he got recruited by the Chinese. I remember that. Yeah. And it's this really gray area. I've talked to, there's one of the big. Well, that's like a pretty clear ITARS.

• 1:15:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. ITARS, absolutely. But then there are, there are places, like, there's a lot of former agency guys that get hired by like the Saudis and shit like that. Yeah. And it's like, eh, they're, they're trained, but like, what, what tactics are they disclosing? It's a messy, That, that gets very weird where you have like a former NAC advising a UAE. Yeah, that's fucking weird. It's like, hmm. Yeah, but there's money to be made. And so like, this shit happens and it becomes, I think what the Russians are really good at, and the Chinese too, is like that layered. Who are you really talking to? Do you know? Right, right. You don't know, right? Like, If it comes to you with an American face, you know, do you really know?

• 1:15:58Speaker 05

  So one of the crazy stories I can tell you about the Chinese is, so Newsweek does a lot of reporting. We had a lot of reporting about China that was, and the Chinese are not fans of, of ours. Living in Seattle and it was the height of the pandemic. So, um, kids are home and, uh, we had this great neighbor that had kids the exact same age as our kids. And so every day we would, um, we would take our kids to the schoolyard and let them play together, just like, but it was very structured, like same time every day. And leading up to this incident, I'll never forget, I was, you know, just going out for a run and I'm coming back to my house.

• 1:16:43Speaker 05

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• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 1:17:50Jack Murphy?

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings. 911 Nashville returns. What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:18:16Speaker 05

  A Tahoe, white guy in it, but he had a screen, like a computer, like it looked like a Fed. And it looked like a police car, but it was unmarked. And I happened upon him and he looked at me and smiled. And the minute he looked at me, it just, those old instincts, I was like, yeah, this guy is here for me. And it was just super weird. And I was looking at him and I was like, oh, how's it going? I'm like, why are you here? He's right by my house. But I knew like, just the way he reacted, that I kind of caught him off guard, but he, you know, uh, knew, he, again, had the sense that it was for me. Go home, just file in the back of my, my mind. It might've been a few days later, I remember exactly how long. We're back out with my neighbor, her kids, and our kids are playing. What we do is we would just while they're playing, we'd walk around the periphery of the school.

• 1:19:01Speaker 05

  And there's streets running on both sides. And as we're coming around the corner, uh, again, school's closed, there's no one there, but the playground's open. I'll never forget this. It was a white Jeep, Jeep Cherokee, like completely stripper, like basic model, but it, it was idling and it had two wheels on the curb. And as I pass it, I see this Asian guy in the front and on his dashboard are all these cell phones. What the fuck? And then I see in the back, there's a fucking cage, like a Faraday cage. And, um, I'm looking at this and again, like just my old spy instincts, I'm like, yeah, that's not fucking right. To say the least. And I'm like turning around and as we're walking, he gets off the curb and starts following me.

• 1:19:47Speaker 05

  And I go to get my phone, try to take a picture and it takes off. And I'm like, immediately I'm like, I put the other incident, put this together. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:57Speaker 05

  So,

• 1:20:01Speaker 05

  my neighbor's like, what was that? We're just both like weird out. Whatever. Life goes on. Kids kind of go back to. So next day she, she comes down, she comes to our apartment and she's like, it was really weird. I, you know, I go out for my morning run. I'm taking the trash out. It's like four 30 in the morning. And the way that the houses are is, we have, in Seattle, there's all these alleys. And so behind the alleys, there's a shared alley. It's basically like a street. You put your garbage in and she comes out and she goes, that truck that we saw was parked in the bar, back alley. And I was like, what the fuck? And I was like, okay, that is a hundred percent Chinese intelligence. And the white guy, what the Chinese would do is they have a target list and they'll hire local detectives who have access to records.

• 1:20:47Speaker 05

  And they probably gave him who I was and he was going to find where I lived specifically, assess my pattern of life. And then what the Chinese were doing, because I have some friends who are former whatevers, but they do like tailored access operations, which is like, and they're like, oh yeah. They're pulling up to your house because they're dumping your phone. They've got, they've got a target list. They have to be within this much distance. My, my bedroom kind of overlooked the back alley. So where he was was probably in distance to connect to my phone while I'm fucking sleeping. So I remember. And they're actually able to break into your phone, uh, wirelessly? He was like, he was like, they just, they explained it to me. They're like, they establish your pattern of life. They can just, you go to a.

• 1:21:34Speaker 05

  Tables over and within minutes they can just grab everything they need.

• 1:21:38Jack Murphy?

  Holy shit.

• 1:21:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, it's a fucking state agency. The resources are unlimited, right? So the way that I called up one of my FBI former colleagues, I was like, what is this? Do I need to be scared? Like, is this them sending a message? And it's like, because it was so like, they weren't trying to hide.

• 1:21:55Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:55Speaker 05

  It was like so overt. He's like, no, man, you gotta understand, they have a fucking list of targets. Like, they just wanted to get, they wanted to finish with you and move on to the next one. They don't give a fuck. There's no consequence. Because what's the consequence going to be to them? And so we had this whole plan that if I saw them again, I was gonna call 911 and be like, I think I saw a guy with a gun.

• 1:22:12Jack Murphy?

  Why do you think the Chinese got on you to begin with?

• 1:22:16Speaker 05

  I think it probably was more of my affiliation with Newsweek as a reporter.

• 1:22:20Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 1:22:21Speaker 05

  Um, and we'd written about China.

• 1:22:23Jack Murphy?

  That intelligence services target national security reporters.

• 1:22:26Speaker 05

  Because what they want to do, so different perspective, though, what they probably want to do is want to see who we're talking to in China.

• 1:22:34Jack Murphy?

  Oh, I see. That that would make sense.

• 1:22:36Speaker 05

  So, I mean, it's not that they were targets for, there was no contact. They just wanted to.

• 1:22:41Jack Murphy?

  Are you talking to dissidents?

• 1:22:42Speaker 05

  Yes, yeah, and literally, are we, who are we talking to? I mean, and um, it's, it's, it's fucking freaky, but that's not the only time I've had run ins with the Chinese. I had another run in with a Chinese intelligence officer. When I was covering the inauguration, um, literally, we're sitting at breakfast and um, this young Asian woman. Like, walks, sits next to us and gets really excited when she sees me, starts taking pictures and like all the Newsweek people are like, what the fuck is going on? At first I thought it was like a fan, but it was super weird. And so we eventually was like, let's just get the fuck out of here. And we left. Literally, Jack, the next morning, I'm coming out of my hotel room, open the door and she walks by my room. And so, again, talk to intelligence folks that I know, and they were like, look.

• 1:23:28Speaker 05

  What you are is you are a targeted, like a targetable asset. But because you're a public figure, um, they know that there's low risk, you don't have any security, it's like you're easily accessible. And for someone, there's the A team, the B team, the C team, the D team, like, you're going to see the D team because that's like, they're just starting off. And for her, she got excited because she's like, I got someone I can collect on, I can go back to Beijing, get a big shiny star. The A team, like, you're never gonna fucking see. In fact, if you see them, you're fucking dead. Like, this, this shit goes on here in our country because there's not like laws, they're not specifically breaking laws that you can go after.

• 1:24:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, because they exploit the freedoms we have in this country. And, and right now, I mean, counterintelligence has been dismantled in this country.

• 1:24:18Speaker 05

  Completely.

• 1:24:19Jack Murphy?

  People don't really get that.

• 1:24:20Speaker 05

  The, I, I was hearing from, from friends that like, you know, for the agency, people are going home at 4:00 PM in the afternoon. Like, there's no work for them. It was, it's really that bad.

• 1:24:30Jack Murphy?

  I was talking to someone today about how they um, purged Mandarin speaking FBI agents.

• 1:24:38Speaker 05

  Because we don't fucking need that.

• 1:24:39Jack Murphy?

  That work in CI.

• 1:24:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, the, you know, the Russians are still at it, but the Chinese are.

• 1:24:46Jack Murphy?

  Aggressive.

• 1:24:46Speaker 05

  Aggressive and they have, they basically have endless funds and endless people.

• 1:24:51Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, 1.5 billion people in China itself.

• 1:24:54Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:24:55Jack Murphy?

  And then China, the, the PRC regards all the overseas Chinese as being their people also. Which is bullshit, but.

• 1:25:04Speaker 05

  Oh, dude, well, and listen, my opinions on like ICE and immigration, obviously, a lot of very strong opinions, but here's what I will say. The birth tourism thing?

• 1:25:14Jack Murphy?

  Is bullshit.

• 1:25:14Speaker 05

  Is bullshit and it's a national security concern because what happens and what's happening now? Is you have someone who shows up from mainland China and they're like, I'm John Yu. I was born here 18 years ago. Here's my passport. You have no fucking idea who that person is.

• 1:25:29Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:30Speaker 05

  And um, it's frightening because there's, you know, again, when I was at Harvard, um, one of the things we did post 9/11 was. They started doing things, tracking international students and listen, no one's gonna come to Harvard and disappear, but there are other schools where people get a student visa. You don't know who they are.

• 1:25:46Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:47Speaker 05

  I mean, again, they can say they're a US national that was born here but never lived here, and they just show up with that passport. How do you?

• 1:25:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, no, I, I agree. That needs to be shut down.

• 1:25:56Speaker 05

  I mean, that's, that's like, to me, that's a really, but that is like a minority what we're talking.

• 1:26:01Jack Murphy?

  It's a sliver, yeah.

• 1:26:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, but it is, I mean, you can imagine that there are, there are probably people here.

• 1:26:08Speaker 05

  Who are using a passport for someone who's born here and they're not.

• 1:26:11Jack Murphy?

  Absolutely.

• 1:26:11Speaker 05

  Not them.

• 1:26:12Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:12Speaker 05

  And, and they're a US citizen. They're entitled, you know.

• 1:26:17Speaker 05

  When we go on to a military base, you have to be a US citizen, no dual citizenship. That person can present that American passport, they can join the military, they can get all sorts of things. It's kind of a frightening prospect.

• 1:26:27Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:28Speaker 05

  So.

• 1:26:29Jack Murphy?

  Um, so to circle back to Oleg.

• 1:26:33Speaker 05

  We went completely the long way, huh?

• 1:26:35Jack Murphy?

  The uh, the, you give them the aerospace documents and then the next step sort of is, is like the DTIC database?

• 1:26:42Speaker 05

  Yep, yep, yep, yep. I'm damn good memory, man. These are like details that I think um. A lot of people might miss, but back then, DTIC was the Defense Technical, I forget what it was, uh, Internet.

• 1:26:54Jack Murphy?

  Information.

• 1:26:54Speaker 05

  Catalog or something. But basically, it was, if you got a grant from the US government to do, like, in research for the Department of Defense. The agreement was that there's an IP transfer that the DOD got to you. So basically, every report. That was funded by the US government would end up on DTIC. And then there was another one called STIC, which was the classified version.

• 1:27:17Jack Murphy?

  True.

• 1:27:19Speaker 05

  But back then, DTIC was just like a database that, once I had credentials, because I could apply as a, you know, because we were a government contractor.

• 1:27:29Speaker 05

  We could, we could get access to. And this is how quickly small things can go, like, unplanned things can go south. So, gamed it with the FBI that um. I, you know, we were gonna try to, I wanted to get Oleg and the Russians to. Get like a monthly salary, essentially, um, and they start giving me like taskings of things that they wanted to collect on. And so they would give me search phrases and things like that to search for DTIC and print out um. Articles or, or reports based on whatever they're looking for. For the FBI, it was a nightmare because none of this stuff had been approved for release.

• 1:28:12Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:28:12Speaker 05

  And, you know, the FBI like, yeah, I mean, you can't just give the Russians shit, right? Um, but none of it was classified, even though it was like um, FOLO, for official use only, um, so that was not a class.

• 1:28:26Jack Murphy?

  Like, no foreign.

• 1:28:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, which is not a classification level.

• 1:28:31Speaker 05

  So, but anyway, I had, back then, I had a wifi card on my laptop, which is a big deal. And I was like, I'm gonna meet, next time I meet Oleg, I'm gonna bring my laptop and I'm gonna show him.

• 1:28:43Speaker 05

  And so, we met at, was it Vinnie's Clam Shack? It's hideous food, Jack. I don't know what this says about the Russians or it says about me, but, so, and I was like not feeling well and.

• 1:28:56Speaker 05

  Oleg had uh, I remember like he'd just been giving me a hard time. Remember at one point I got up to the bathroom because I was really feeling like not great and I get in the bathroom and this like heavyset like guy like. Bursting in to see if I'm like, you know, making a phone call, changing the batteries on my, who knows the fucking.

• 1:29:13Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they're quite clumsy.

• 1:29:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. So, um, anyway, we get back to the table and I'm like, look, I've got this database, do you want to see it? And uh, so we go to my car and we're seeing some parking structure. And I'm showing the database and the agreement I have with the FBI is that it's a closed system, meaning that like.

• 1:29:34Speaker 05

  There's no way to get stuff off. He can look at it, he can download it to the computer, but it's my laptop, right? He's not. So we're letting him browse stuff. And I opened up some article just randomly because he's like, can you open this up? And obviously, he's testing to see if this stuff is real. Just choose a random thing. And it's like some article on like linguistics, like the most benign, boring shit you can possibly imagine. And he's like, can I get this article? And I'm like, no, I, there's no way for me to get it off here to give it to you. Because we, we thought this through and, you know, again, he'd asked for like my credentials, can I get your login credentials? I said, no, I'm looking for my fucking login. And so he looks at me and he goes, ah, I've got an idea. And he pulls out this thumb drive that I'd just given him, which had information from Northrop Grumman on it.

• 1:30:18Speaker 05

  He goes, can you put the document on here? Now.

• 1:30:24Speaker 05

  I had a split second to decide.

• 1:30:28Speaker 05

  What would be the reason to say no?

• 1:30:29Jack Murphy?

  Right. You're on the spot here.

• 1:30:31Speaker 05

  Yeah. So I made the decision to put the document, this benign, what I thought was benign document. Onto this. And he was very happy. Put on the thumb drive, gave him the thumb drive back.

• 1:30:44Speaker 05

  Went on his way. The FBI was like, live it with me. They're like, you know, you should have said no. And I was like, and they're like, well, at least now we know. He knows it's real. Within days, I had a voluntary warrant that I signed, turned over my laptop so you could go through it. Fucking got that laptop back, dude. I fucking smashed it up. I never, I don't know what was put on it. Between the FBI and the Russians putting a Russian thumb drive into it.

• 1:31:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:09Speaker 05

  Um, and I just remember it was this moment. I remember sitting on the lawn in my parents' front yard, just like lying down, just feeling like, oh, man, this is just. I mean, the FBI completely turned on me. I went from being like a trusted, like, you know, superstar to being like, the fuck did you do? And that kind of signaled the end, the beginning of the end of the operation. And basically, at that moment, again, like, I suddenly realized there's all these people that I don't know that are involved in it. They all have a fucking opinion.

• 1:31:40Jack Murphy?

  And this thing has been going on for like three years.

• 1:31:43Speaker 05

  Three years at this point, yeah. So, I mean, it was fucking long in the tooth, you know, right? Like you, you know, it's, I started taking unnecessary risks to see if I would get caught. I mean, it's just, it's like a mindfuck. Um, but like, yeah, that was, and it was Oleg's time to leave anyway. So that sort of precipitated the, the decision by the FBI to basically shut the thing down at this point. Because they didn't know if his subsequent replacement was gonna have the same relationship or would even make contact with me. And so they figured that they had a chance to kind of spring a trap.

• 1:32:18Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. So tell us about the trap.

• 1:32:19Speaker 05

  The trap. So, everything with the FBI was like gamed out. Just like with that thumb drive. So, you know, the Russians had this whole thing where like, they would give me a menu of a restaurant, like, next time I call you, I'll give you a date and this is where we'll meet. But I won't, they won't say the location. They gave me a menu to Pizzeria Uno's in Jersey. Some like, I forget the, uh, um, but some like big mall. And so I remember sitting down with the FBI and being like, we're trying to game this out. They're like, okay. When you sit down with Oleg, we're gonna come arrest you in the restaurant. I'm like, that's a fucking terrible idea. Like, what if, this is pre like cell phones where everyone recorded, but I'm like,

• 1:33:04Speaker 05

  what if someone fucking recognized me? You want to make a big commotion in the middle of a restaurant? It's a bad idea. And so we came up with this idea that I was gonna get him to my car. And when I took my hat off, is when they would close in. And so, gamed it out. Everything's planned out, right?

• 1:33:21Speaker 05

  Meet, Oleg calls me. And the FBI is like, you cannot go meet with him. I was like, why the fuck not? And they're like,

• 1:33:32Speaker 05

  you just can't. And what I realized is that they were, I'm guessing, they were arguing with the State Department about like what the FBI could do with Oleg. And there's all these people weighing in of who should be in charge.

• 1:33:44Jack Murphy?

  That or they just couldn't get enough guys to come into work to serve, you know, a warrant and, that wouldn't surprise me either.

• 1:33:49Speaker 05

  Nothing would surprise me, but it basically, you're right. Like, it was just basically big FBI, everyone was now fucking involved.

• 1:33:57Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:57Speaker 05

  And it was just like this giant, like, no one, I'm in charge. No, I'm in charge, right? So.

• 1:34:02Jack Murphy?

  Once there's some action to be had, everyone wants to get their hands on it.

• 1:34:06Speaker 05

  Yeah. It was like, it was wild. So the FBI made me wait in this parking lot with them until Oleg left the restaurant. And they had to watch me until, just to make sure that I wouldn't go meet with him without them knowing. And of course, in the course of action, course of this like whole thing, I, uh, I politely declined to go to a good friend's wedding that day. And a guy named Larry Kazila, if any of you guys watch, he's ammo New York City. He's a big car detailer. He's very well known. Larry invited me to his wedding. And unbeknownst to me, um, the night before his wedding, the church he was supposed to go to had a fire.

• 1:34:49Speaker 05

  So he moved to a different church. And it just so happened it was the church that I drove by. And I had the Corvette. And I'll never forget looking at my friend. I look and I see them all coming out of the church. And there's my friend Mike Musso looking at me like, what the fuck are you doing? You said you were out of town. And for years, I couldn't tell Larry or any of those guys. They all thought that I was just skipping out of this. But meanwhile, I was driving to meet these two FBI agents to sit in a parking lot under 125th Street, under the West Side Highway until Oleg left this restaurant.

• 1:35:19Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah. Over where I, you mentioned the dinosaur barbecue.

• 1:35:23Speaker 05

  Yep, that's right.

• 1:35:24Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. And the Cotton Club was over there.

• 1:35:26Speaker 05

  And which is now gone, but it's, so I'm sitting there in a fucking parking lot with these, and I'm already like, you motherfuckers, like, how am I gonna explain this, uh, to the FBI? And so, Oleg of Imagine left, and then he calls a week or so later. Meet it and, and, you know, let's do this again. So I come out. I walk into Pizzeria, like walk there, and I'm getting ready to go inside. And he, where the fuck he came from, but he like walks up. And he's like, so we're outside about to, I remember my hand on the iron handle of this big like wooden door. He's like, hey, Navid, how's it going? I'm like, and he pulls his hand out and he's shaking my hand. And he goes without, and this is all them like this interrogation thing.

• 1:36:09Speaker 05

  So while he's holding my hand, looking me dead in the eye, he goes, yeah, so where were you next last week? And I was like, oh, my sister-in-law had, I gave some bullshit excuse. He's like, oh, okay. Hey, do you mind if we switch to the different restaurant? And he's still shaking my hand. I'm like, I'm like, fuck, yeah, I mind. Like, this is the whole plan. Like, we.

• 1:36:28Jack Murphy?

  I mean, that's tradecraft too, right?

• 1:36:29Speaker 05

  Hundred percent.

• 1:36:30Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:31Speaker 05

  And so I'm like, oh, I don't mind at all. And so he's like, why don't we go to fucking Hooters, which is across the street? And, um, so I'm like, it was like the longest walk between those parking lot. Cause I'm, I imagine.

• 1:36:46Jack Murphy?

  Cause the FBI SWAT team van is like, whoa, no.

• 1:36:50Speaker 05

  They're like, what the fuck is going on? And, um, later on, like when I saw, there was obviously FBI agents in the Pizzeria Uno's, because I know at the end, when this all kind of finished, there's agents, they come running up after we'd like met in this parking lot to like cheer that we'd just done this. And they had fucking doggy bags. So they'd gotten their food from Pizzeria Uno's to go. So we, and we go to, we go to Hooters. Oleg is like,

• 1:37:16Speaker 05

  I gotta tell you, this is my last time meeting with you. I'm going back to Russia. But everyone loves you. They're so excited. And I was like, well, I have some documents I want to give you there in my car.

• 1:37:25Jack Murphy?

  He had, he had a fat envelope for you.

• 1:37:27Speaker 05

  Fat envelope of like 50 or 40 grand. I can't remember what it was. Um, and he, you know, we're walking. So we leave Hooters and we're walking to the car.

• 1:37:37Jack Murphy?

  He, I remember the other, before we get there, I mean, he also told you like, you're gonna be a legit Russian spy. Like, you're gonna have a retirement plan, like the escrow account, like all of that shit.

• 1:37:48Speaker 05

  So we, we were like, I'll never forget this. We were on the curb, Jack, like, and I knew the minute I stepped off the curb and walked to the car, that was it.

• 1:37:57Jack Murphy?

  It was on.

• 1:37:57Speaker 05

  And, and so he's sitting there. He's like, and he's exactly, he's like, I'm gonna, to this day, he was like, like really like stroking me, man, like really going off on this. And he's like, people back in Russia are so excited, like they want to have a lobster dinner with you. And I'm like, I, the one thing I regret is I want to know what that dinner would have been like. And so he's, and it's same thing. He's like, we're gonna have a retirement account for you. Everything you said. So that was it. I just become a made man within Russian intelligence. And I was literally standing on this curb. And I could see the car. I knew when we walked.

• 1:38:31Jack Murphy?

  And by the way, you don't have these documents.

• 1:38:33Speaker 05

  No, it's all fucking bullshit. So we get to the back of the Corvette. I pop the trunk. He leans in. And, um, looks at the documents. And I think at this point, he knows it's over. And I take my hat off. Just like cinema, these three FBI cars, kind of, few cars come in. And, uh, they get out and they're like, they grab me. And they're like, start like patting me down and like, I guess this really pissed off some of the agents that they were like treating, like he, I don't think, he don't think he handcuffed me, but he was like treating me like I was being arrested. And, um, puts me, and these are people I've never seen before. Puts me in the back of the car. And the whole time I'm looking at Oleg.

• 1:39:17Speaker 05

  All he does is turn and walk away, like all through the years. All this, like literally five minutes ago, you're like, you're the, you're the best boy in the world and we're gonna give you all the, and then fucking gone.

• 1:39:30Jack Murphy?

  Cold professional.

• 1:39:31Speaker 05

  Cold professional. So we're sitting in the car driving away. And these two FBI agents I've never dealt with before, turn around, look at me and they start high fiving me. And I was like, what the fuck? And what is going? And then we drive to this parking structure. There's like 50 guys there. And they're all like, high fiving me. And it was just, it was, it was surreal.

• 1:39:51Jack Murphy?

  It's pretty interesting. I mean, first off, I think you're a madman for placing yourself between the FBI and the GRU. That's completely insane.

• 1:40:03Jack Murphy?

  But I thought it was very interesting and actually very cool to see in your book that, um, the FBI actually did take care of you.

• 1:40:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:40:13Jack Murphy?

  And they did, um, even offer you some closure, I think, to that experience. Um, bringing you back, you got to go inside the CIA office and like the direct.

• 1:40:23Speaker 05

  That was wild.

• 1:40:24Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:24Speaker 05

  Um, so, uh, at this time, my wife was pregnant with our first, first kid. You're a New Yorker, so you can understand. The FBI was like, we're gonna take you out to dinner. And no, no big deal. Just show up at 26 Fed and, um, you know, six o'clock. And so we're, we're taking a cab and there's traffic. And, uh, so we get there like late. And, uh, one of the FBI agents that I'm working with, worked with for three, three years, you know, meets me downstairs and get into the lobby. The building's empty. Which is wild. It's a giant, you know, 26 Fed's a giant fucking building. There's no like.

• 1:41:07Jack Murphy?

  I think I may have been in there to.

• 1:41:09Jack Murphy?

  Parking tickets.

• 1:41:12Speaker 05

  But so there's, you know, it's a federal building, so you can imagine that you don't just stroll into it. And so the first thing, sign that something was a mess was that we just walked into it and they bring me to this elevator. And I'll never forget, it was like a capsule with an FBI crest on the floor. And I'm looking at the FBI agent, I'm like, this is a cool elevator. Do you take this to get the office? Like, he's like, I've never been in this elevator. I'm like, huh. Well, that's weird. So we get up to whatever floor, doors open. It's cubicle land everywhere, but there's not a person to be seen. And um.

• 1:41:48Speaker 05

  Then there's this. At the ti- you know. Probably like fifty, but to me, he looked like he was like, you know, ancient, right? And he's this like super cool looking bald guy from the future. He meets me and um.

• 1:42:05Speaker 05

  He starts talking to my wife and he's like, she's very proud of your husband. He did, you know, did something amazing for the country. And I, I can't remember, but things like that. And it was very, for me, it was very awkward. I didn't, I never really thought of it that way.

• 1:42:18Speaker 05

  They'd take pictures, which I have access to pictures like, oh, the, something must have happened with the film. They weren't developed and we don't know where it. Bullshit.

• 1:42:28Speaker 05

  So. He met, you know, there's like a grip and grin. They hand me a check that Oleg for the last bit of money. And of course, I reported on my taxes because I'm like, I'm not fucking like. So I had to pay thirty two, whatever thirty percent on, on uh, whatever he gave me.

• 1:42:45Jack Murphy?

  On the gift.

• 1:42:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, the gift, right. I'm like, thanks a lot, guys.

• 1:42:50Speaker 05

  And then we go out to dinner and I'm walking with these like FBI agents. Again, I've never seen them, including the head of the New York office. And the guy's like, what did it feel like to meet the assistant director of the FBI? And I'm like, what? I, I had no idea who that was. And um. They give me, I get a, um, a signed letter of commendation, which is at the New York, at the uh, spy museum in DC. Um, one, one sign from him and the other one was, oh God, was the former director of the FBI who recently passed away, Robert Mueller. So like, those were really cool to get those things. And it was only at that moment, after three years, that I sort of understood that this was. And to me, Jack, it just felt, it all felt kind of absurd.

• 1:43:32Jack Murphy?

  Right. And kind of like ad hoc.

• 1:43:34Speaker 05

  Yeah. And like, how can anyone give a shit about this? Turns out they did. And as I learned. Here's the kicker to the story. Oleg.

• 1:43:44Speaker 05

  Just pure chance. Had uh, he was not supposed to be in that position that he was in, in the UN. Something had happened where his predecessor had been sent home early. So he kind of got a bump up. And Nikolai Eravov, General Eravov. So they have a real job, these, these spies and for the Russian mission. And it's to sit on what's known as. The Military Staff Committee, which is an actual organ of the United Nations. And it's made up of. This military members of each of the embassies to the, uh, to the, the UN. So if you look today at who's part of the Military Staff Committee of the UN, and you look at Russia, you can assume that those people are fucking spies.

• 1:44:27Speaker 05

  And the head of the MSC was this guy named Nikolai Eravov. And Eravov, as I learned much later on. Was the senior GRU officer in the United States. So he was in charge of all GRU operations. And.

• 1:44:42Speaker 05

  Because he never left the Residendura, he went from his house. To the mission, to the UN. The FBI could not get to him. What Eravov had was this guy, Oleg, who was his right hand man, his lieutenant, who was basically his deputy. And when this person left. Early. Oleg got, I guess, his old accounts, which one of which was my parents. I had no way of knowing this. And he was not happy to do the shit work, basically. And so I think that because he saw this, he wanted to turn this into something bigger. And for the, and the reason the FBI was so intrigued about this is that they knew by getting Oleg, they got Eravov.

• 1:45:25Speaker 05

  So what I heard much later on is, because I met people who were tangentially, they didn't understand the full breadth of it, but on the, on our side. Were part of this operation at the end. And um, my little operation like actually impacted Russia, Russian collection in the United States for like an estimated. Three to eight months. Like they had to shut everything down.

• 1:45:48Jack Murphy?

  All their networks.

• 1:45:49Speaker 05

  Yeah. They don't know what's compromised. They don't know what numbers, what safe houses.

• 1:45:53Jack Murphy?

  So did they like actually PNG Oleg and his boss there?

• 1:45:59Speaker 05

  His boss never got PNG because his boss never met with me. Right? I don't know what, I've been trying to find out what happened to Eravov. I'm. There's a, who's the New York Times reporter who's a former Marine I love?

• 1:46:11Jack Murphy?

  Um, there, yes, um, Nefs.

• 1:46:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, I think that's right. I was talking to him and trying to find out what happened. Eravov. I can't find any information about him. I don't know if he's like. Dropped dead from alcohol.

• 1:46:24Jack Murphy?

  Assassinated and embossed or something.

• 1:46:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. Um, Oleg, we found on Russian dating sites.

• 1:46:32Speaker 05

  I don't think he had a very happy life. I think, you know, he was on the plane to, back to Moscow literally the next day. The FBI followed him to JFK and, you know. I e- expect it was not a very pleasant couple of months being debriefed.

• 1:46:47Speaker 05

  They told me that he was not actually PNG'd. Because that would have required disclosure of certain things, and I don't think, but for all intents and purpose. He's never leaving Russia ever again. Um, and I'm sure that the Russians, you know, have some training that they do for all their GRU and SVR officers that talks about this. I'm probably a case study somewhere.

• 1:47:08Speaker 05

  But yeah, his, his, I feel, I mean, his, I hold no ill will to him. I mean.

• 1:47:12Jack Murphy?

  He was doing his job.

• 1:47:13Speaker 05

  He was doing his job. He was a patriot for his country. You can't fault him for that. Um, the only thing I'll just say is he thought he was good, but we were just better. I mean, we really, you know, being like a young kid with literally off the street, like. Making this up as I went along and we were able to, to, to.

• 1:47:30Jack Murphy?

  Well, as you point out, this is sort of the culmination unintentionally, maybe of a twenty five year relationship between, with your parents and the FBI. Um, and then you coming on there, the three years, uh, doing this.

• 1:47:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, I mean, i- i- it's. Again, like, people need to understand that it's. This was a unique.

• 1:47:54Speaker 05

  The stars had to align, right? Like, I think if I just showed up. And they had no idea who I was, they would have never trusted me.

• 1:48:00Jack Murphy?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:48:00Speaker 05

  So it's, that. It was an opportunity in that regard. Like, you can't make that stuff up, right? You. Ash Carter, that's the guy's name, who, I don't know if you remember that name. He was in Trump orbit one. He's this weird guy. And there's all these records that were released of him trying to work with the Russians and they wanted nothing to do with him. He's a perfect example of like.

• 1:48:19Jack Murphy?

  You're a loser. Go away.

• 1:48:21Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 1:48:21Jack Murphy?

  Like, you're such a loser that the Russians won't even talk to you.

• 1:48:24Speaker 05

  That's right. But because they, they have an assessment. They don't want crazy people. And, you know. If I just showed up and been like, I want to work for you, they'd have been like, nah, that's cool, bro.

• 1:48:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:34Speaker 05

  Like, they, they want to choose. It's all got to be about them controlling it. So.

• 1:48:40Speaker 05

  You're right, like, it's not recreatable. That, that opportunity, that twenty five years is what was able to have this happen is also why they trusted me. And I think. To the FBI's credit, it's probably why it was so damaging to the Russians and that, you know, because they trusted. Like, every time Oleg would call me, that's a, that number that he was calling me from, that's a piece of information. Like, is that the only number that he's using for just me? And Oleg was tied to other operations. And, I mean, one of the things I can disclose also is that. The Director of National Intelligence came down and I, I was never part of this, but they presented the team, the National Intelligence Medal for this work. Wow. So I mean, like, this was, again, to me, none of this was apparent at the time. Like, the significance of what was going on was.

• 1:49:26Speaker 05

  I, I just, all I saw was Oleg.

• 1:49:28Jack Murphy?

  So the FBI did help you out with your uh, Navy application?

• 1:49:33Speaker 05

  I did. I, I, that's right. So I did get in. Um, I remember the book, if you read the book, I mean, the joke is like, obviously I'm alive, I'm still here. But it ends with, um, I can say his name now, Scott, who was the ASAC, SAC or ASAC, I can't remember. But I get commissioned in twenty six Fed, a small little ceremony. And he says, like, that's the same oath of office we take, welcome to the team. And it's true. That's literally what happened. And, you know. It was, I was really excited and, you know, I kind of.

• 1:50:07Speaker 05

  Again, here's another footnote I put, started my Navy career, put like, I was like, okay, I'm going to transition. I'm going to put this all in this like, you know, footlocker and move on. And um. In true military form, there was a school that I was avoiding. This is. Twenty, so this ended, ended in two thousand nine, by twenty thirteen, twenty twelve. There's a school that the Navy wanted me to go to. And I'd just been avoiding it and avoiding it and avoiding it. And it was called, um. It was like a capstone course. I can't remember what it was. But it was in this place called Fitzipac, Fleet Intelligence Center, Pacific. And so I fly out there, finally, they're like, I get caught, I have to go.

• 1:50:52Speaker 05

  So I fly out to San Diego. It's like every skiff I've ever been to, it's windowless, but in this case. It's like downwind from the San Diego sewage treatment facility. So you have the added benefit of having no windows, but it still smells like shit. So we're sitting, day one, we're sitting in this windowless room. We don't have access to any of the computers and it's just a bunch of people who never met each other. And we're in a skiff. So people start cha- trading stories. About shit and there's, I can't recount some of them, but, but like. They're wild, like some pretty fucking wild stories. And for whatever reason, Jack. I don't know why, I don't know if it was like this cathartic moment, maybe I thought it was in like a safe space, but I told the story about the Russians.

• 1:51:37Speaker 05

  And people were like, oh, it's cool. And um. So fast forward, this is like day one. I don't know what possessed me to do this.

• 1:51:47Speaker 05

  And then in the process, I had been applying for a particular three letter agency. You know, again, I was trying to like come full circle, come above board in the intelligence community and kind of move on. And I was applying to this intelligence agency and uh. So it was like an online app. The first step is an application packet.

• 1:52:08Speaker 05

  And um, that evening, go down to the Gaslamp District with a bunch of classmates. And, you know, we're drinking, it's beautiful San Diego night. And uh, one of these guy, one of the guys, Jake, who's my classmate.

• 1:52:22Speaker 05

  We're walking, oh, like, he's from, he's from LA, and so he driven up, so he had his car. He's gonna take a cab back, and he's like, hey, man, I'll give you a ride to your hotel, you wanna ride? I'm like, sure. I've known this guy twelve hours, right? So, we're walking, and he goes, hey, that story you told, that was really cool. He's like, can I, can I confide something in you? And I'm like, oh, fuck.

• 1:52:49Speaker 05

  You know, because you've been there, you're like, you're like, dude, I just met you, like, I don't. He's like, I, I wanna tell you a story, but you have to promise not to freak out. I'm like, too fucking late, like, he's like, no, no, I tell people this, and they freak out, and you gotta tell, promise me, and I'm like, he's really laying it off, and I'm thinking, fuck, we're building, we're, we're bearing a dead prostitute in the desert.

• 1:53:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:12Speaker 05

  Right? Like, this is, I just got here, how can this fucking be over already? Like, I'm going to jail, right? And so, I'm like, I, I can only imagine the worst scenarios that he's about to disclose. He's like that, he's like, fine, I'm like, dude, enough, just, what is it you wanna tell me? He's like, look, that story you told, that was really cool. So, I don't tell a lot of people about this, but I used to be the head writer for Jimmy Kimmel. And I was like, oh, he's like, I don't offer this, but if you ever wanna write a book, let me know. And true to form, I was, began applying to this particular three-letter agency, and I came to that moment where it's like, the idea of writing a book was really appealing, and I knew that if I progressed forward,

• 1:53:54Speaker 05

  I would have that, like, agency of bill, they'd have to review everything, publication review, for, for life. And so, I called up my friend Jake, and I was like, dude, here's a, here's a chapter I've written, I wrote this whole chapter. And he's like, he introduced, he gave it to his agent, his literary agent. She was like, I love this, and he was like, I won't tell you his name, I can't, like, and finally, at a meeting, the agent was like, I wanna do this, but there was no way to validate any of this, because it was not a public story. So, we went out, um, just for that chapter. I had a great co-author, because I've never, I'd never written anything more than a college paper at this point, I was not a journalist, I was not a writer.

• 1:54:39Speaker 05

  And we wrote a little treaty, um, he got picked up by, at the time, Simon Schuster, but what was wild, Jack, is that pitch to the publisher got leaked to a bunch of directors, and suddenly, we had this bidding war with, like, all these famous directors for the movie rights. So, before I'd written one page of the book, we had it sold as a movie, which never got made, because that's, I'm sure, as you know, like, the whole media thing is.

• 1:55:07Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, it's, uh.

• 1:55:08Speaker 05

  But like, this wild moment that I happened to be going to a school that I fucking tried not to go to, while he told this story, this guy Jake, who happened to be the head writer for Jimmy Kimmel, happened to be there. You can't plan this shit out.

• 1:55:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:24Speaker 05

  And that's, honestly, I mean, there's a lot of work I put into this, but that pure happenstance chance, that moment is literally what propelled my entire media career. If those two things hadn't happened the way they did, I wouldn't be here.

• 1:55:39Jack Murphy?

  Uh, in the book, How to Catch a Russian Spy, we'll have links in the description for folks who wanna go check it out. Um, so, how does, you know, your media career versus your career as a Navy Reserve Intelligence Officer, like, how do these two things interact?

• 1:55:55Speaker 05

  Very badly. So, um, as you can imagine, it's, there's a weird thing where I was, you know, I got picked up by MSNBC. Um, the book came out while I was still in the Navy, and, um, again, went through the publication review, the Navy couldn't do anything about it. They were actually pretty cool about it, to believe it or not, um, I remember that it went through, we were about to publish, and we were waiting for the entire Navy to, like, different branches to sign off on it. I think it was like the Medical Corps had to sign off on it, too, it's like the last one, we got, so, um, it's funny, like, I think the, the military is much more savvy with, like, influencers now, but this was pre that.

• 1:56:37Speaker 05

  They didn't really know what to do with me, um, but what I will say is that some, I ended up working at, uh, taking my last billet, was at Defense Innovation Unit Experimental, DIUX, uh, which was Mattis's brainchild, I got to meet him, it was really cool. Um, and, and they actually saw the value of someone like me. Um, believe it or not, Jack, there's a lot of similarities to being a spy and being a journalist, you're cultivating sources, you're, the CIA has this manipulation, but it's, they don't look at it as a negative thing, I mean, there's, um, there's a lot of similarities in trying to, like, how you manage things, and how you do sources, how you protect things. Um, it was, by the time the book came out, it was sort of like,

• 1:57:21Speaker 05

  the military was split, some people were super, like, supportive, super impressed, super cool about it. Others were just like, they didn't fucking like that I was coming out here and doing this, and I was like, it's a good story, like, what do you?

• 1:57:36Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, why do you even care?

• 1:57:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, but you, you know how it is, like, you become a lightning rod, I had people, literally, I had people calling up, saying I was appearing on TV in full uniform, which, of course, is like, easily disprovable. But like, I, it was wild, I had people that would just, were so angry that I was doing this, they were trying to launch investigations, trying to get my clearance pulled, and it just, it became too much of a spectacle, too much to, to balance. And at this point, I was like, I kind of had deviated from the traditional, like, career path of, to promote, and I was like, I, I think I'm done. Um, I, you know, it was, I'm really glad I did both things.

• 1:58:16Speaker 05

  Um, I, I got a really unique view into the traditional intelligence world, and the completely non-traditional intelligence world, and I'm glad I got to do both. Um, being an undercover asset like that, dude, there's a fucking shelf life on it. You can't, you can't do that indefinitely, it's just, there's no, I mean, like, the joke is, there's no fucking dental plan, there's no actual retirement plan, right?

• 1:58:42Jack Murphy?

  Well, I mean, we've been interviewed, like, ATF guys that went undercover in motorcycle clubs.

• 1:58:47Speaker 05

  Fucking nuts.

• 1:58:47Jack Murphy?

  And you can do that once, maybe twice.

• 1:58:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

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• 2:00:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:00:22Jack Murphy?

  But that's it.

• 2:00:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, and it's also just the mental, like, it's really hard to get that shit straight, and, you know, you start to, I have a lot of respect for those, for those men and women that do that, I mean, it's, it's legit, like, it's fucking dangerous, scary, like, I, you know, I, I downplay the risk, but I've had FBI agents that have talked to people, and it's, it's really uncomfortable for me to say this, Jack, but it was like, you know, there's, I mean, it's the Russian government, like, they, they kill people, you know, it, it's, it's not that, it's not that they're interested, there's no, they're not looking, it's not personal.

• 2:00:56Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:57Speaker 05

  But if I was.

• 2:00:58Jack Murphy?

  It's just business.

• 2:00:58Speaker 05

  It's right, but if I got in the way of something that was more important, they wouldn't think twice, you know? Oleg wouldn't have thought twice to put a, you know, I'm, I'm sure you've talked to people like this, but I have talked to people where, you know, these are fucking stolen cold killers, and they're laughing with you, and you just know that if, if they had to, they'd put a fucking bullet between your eye. It's the same sort of thing, like, they, they wouldn't hesitate, um, and again, it wouldn't have been personal, like, um, so, there's a level of danger, every time I walked into a place, I didn't, your safety's not guaranteed. And you had to trust that the FBI was there, and if something went south, they would, they would have your back, and I, I generally believe that that's probably true. I did actually trust them.

• 2:01:34Jack Murphy?

  But there wasn't like a SWAT team in the van standing by?

• 2:01:37Speaker 05

  I mean, if there was, I would never know.

• 2:01:38Jack Murphy?

  Until that last day, anyway.

• 2:01:40Speaker 05

  That's right, that's right, no, you, I mean, that's not what they were going for, and.

• 2:01:44Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 2:01:44Speaker 05

  Um, yeah, but I mean, like, who's that Navy chief, um, what's his name's wife? The, uh, guy in Washington, who met with, meeting with an asset in like the, in Iraq, in like some marketplace, and it was like low-level risk, and, you know, it detonated and killed her.

• 2:02:04Jack Murphy?

  Oh, you're talking about Shannon Kent?

• 2:02:05Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 2:02:06Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:06Speaker 05

  I can't believe I forgot the name, but, I mean, listen, that shit is dangerous, I mean, obviously, that's a war zone, but like, you know, the, these are not, you're not dealing with, like.

• 2:02:16Jack Murphy?

  Normal people?

• 2:02:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, and like, normal situations, they're part of a large organization, and if that organization decides that you need to go because it benefits them, you're gonna go.

• 2:02:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean. It's, there is like this clandestine intelligence, like it is this thinking bureaucracy, but you're not privy to any of that information.

• 2:02:36Speaker 05

  And that was the thing that really fucked with me. It was, it's funny, like I don't, I've never really talked about this too much, but there was a point also where. I remember again, I was, I'd been sent to another school by the FBI. We're in some vault in a classroom in Crystal City. With another agency and we're just sitting there doing an analysis course. And I got like this really bad eye infection. And I went to, um, this was years later. I just went to the, the, like, you know, sick hall. And, um, there was something about the nurse, you know, they just do your vitals and put the blood pressure sleeve on. It's about having my, like, sitting there and sort of being restrained and had, like, not being able to move. I had a complete, like, panic attack.

• 2:03:22Speaker 05

  And I realized at that moment, like, holy shit, the stuff that I did, like, you caught up to me. You can only repress shit. For so, it's like not a natural thing to like, I would walk out and I'd be like, there's a black van there. I've never seen that before.

• 2:03:36Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 2:03:37Speaker 05

  What is it? And I'd be like, I, I don't have time to think about this. I just gotta go.

• 2:03:41Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, soldiers get post-traumatic stress, but spies inherit this like strong sense of paranoia a lot of times.

• 2:03:48Speaker 05

  Dude, like, it is something, to this day, when I go to a restaurant, I was when I had my back against the wall, like, it's, it, it's. It's not combat, but it is like this incent, intense feeling. I don't like being in like crowds. I don't, you know, there's like, it's, it is. It fucks with you. And, and just like with, I imagine being in combat, like, the only way you can function is to repress. And it's like, not a natural thing.

• 2:04:15Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you, you disassociate from it, you compartmentalize it, but you, that only works, yeah, for so long.

• 2:04:21Speaker 05

  Right. And it just, and, and I think that was like that moment where I'm like, fuck, yeah, like, I'll never forget that. It was just. Sitting in the, the nurse is like looking at me like, what the fuck is wrong? The doctor comes in and goes, oh, it's white lab coat syndrome. And I'm like. Fuck, what is happening? Like, but you know, years of just not, like, being terrified.

• 2:04:41Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 2:04:41Speaker 05

  But like trying to turn it off. So I could function. Eventually it's like not a natural thing. And that's what I'm saying. We talked about this, like.

• 2:04:51Speaker 05

  Normal people can't do this. They can't lie and they can't live like that. It's not a normal thing. And eventually it all, it all, you know, for normal people, it all comes fucking catching, right? You know what I'm talking about.

• 2:05:03Jack Murphy?

  And where, uh, where are you at today? I mean, you're, you're still working in media?

• 2:05:09Speaker 05

  Yeah. So, um, I'm lucky enough, you know, I got out of the military and I was lucky enough to. Kind of do the two things that I love, which is tell stories and do so with the military. So I host a show on news for Newsweek called Unconventional. You can find us on YouTube. I've been able to do some really amazing things. I've. Actually got to fly a B two stealth bomber, which is wild. Um, so I've flown, I've been flown in all three air force bombers. Um, the B two, the B one, the B C two. I've been in every leg of the nuclear triad. I've. Gone on a ballistic missile submarine for sixty eight hours. Seen, gone down to Minutemen, ICBMs, got to touch one, got to see one launch, obviously no nuclear warhead.

• 2:05:53Speaker 05

  Um, and yeah, I, I just, I'm really, you know, the military for me is like.

• 2:06:01Speaker 05

  I'm not gonna say it's like the most, you have, we all have our criticisms of it.

• 2:06:05Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 2:06:06Speaker 05

  But I think it is probably one of the most American things you can do.

• 2:06:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:09Speaker 05

  And I'm lucky enough to get to cover it. Most importantly, I'm lucky enough to tell stories of these young people, which is really what. I don't care about the generals or the admirals. Um, but when I sit down, I talk to. Like a twenty year old kid working on a Minutemen ICBM and I ask him like. This is wild that you're doing this shit. What do you want the American people to know? And he looks at me, that is not a. Rehearsed line. He looks at me, he goes, I want them to know that I worked really hard to get here. And that's like an honest answer.

• 2:06:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:06:41Speaker 05

  And like for all the criticism that the military faces, there's a lot of people that, you know, they're very proud of what they do and they've worked really hard. It's a, it's a. Social and economic mobility tool for them.

• 2:06:53Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 2:06:54Speaker 05

  So, yeah, but like, so show unconventional, um, really cool. If you, if I can plug it, like.

• 2:07:00Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 2:07:01Speaker 05

  Go, go to YouTube on Newsweek Unconventional, check out some of our episodes, um, you know, it's, it's good stuff. If you like espionage. Um, the background of having, you know, this intelligence, I think has given me access to a lot of things that most people don't get to, like, you know, like I said, to. Fly B two, which was again, a wild moment when they were like, you can fly it. And then I land in the air force like, hey. The part of the non-rated pilot flying the one of twenty, twenty billion dollar aircraft, could you maybe not post that?

• 2:07:35Speaker 05

  So, but yeah, um, no, man, I'm, I'm really, I'm really, really grateful that, you know. Life has turned out okay. I really can't complain. Um, it's been a wild ride and. I would not recommend if you want to join the military, there are easier ways to do it. I would definitely go that, that route. You don't have to spend three years doing this.

• 2:07:56Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, dude. I mean, when the Iraq war was pumping, uh, you know, you showed up in the recruitment office.

• 2:08:00Speaker 05

  Oh, dude, they'd be like, they'd be like.

• 2:08:02Jack Murphy?

  They're not saying no.

• 2:08:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, you're, you're not kidding. And it's, it's, yeah, I mean, it's now it's, listen, it's a different world for people, young people joining. I mean, you know, there, there are. We can talk about Hagstaff and all that, but like, listen, the motivation is still the same. There are still people out there that just want to do.

• 2:08:21Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 2:08:22Speaker 05

  And, um, I don't know, that's like, you talk about Russia, you talk about China. I think that's a pretty amazing thing about America. There are people that legitimately. You can disagree with policy, but they want to do that job. And they want to do that job for what that job is.

• 2:08:37Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like they're not forced into it. They're not drafted. Um, for, as you point out, for some people, it's a way of upward mobility in life. Which is totally fine, you know, and they serve honorably. Um, as most, the vast majority of them do. Um, but that there are, there are people who just actually want that job.

• 2:08:56Speaker 05

  I know. It's surprising to you and I.

• 2:08:58Jack Murphy?

  You know, that, yeah, yeah, yeah, that, you know, you want that challenge.

• 2:09:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:09:03Jack Murphy?

  You know, not everyone wants an easy job.

• 2:09:05Speaker 05

  No, no. I mean, when you meet a twenty year old Marine and you're like, this looks miserable. And they're like, no, I really want to be here. I want this challenge. Like I.

• 2:09:13Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, it works hard to get there.

• 2:09:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. And you know what? Like, this country is better for having people like that. You need people, you need people like that. And, and, you know, what I hope is that.

• 2:09:26Speaker 05

  What the experience of the Russians left me with is a deep sense of like how important. National security is, how important deterrence is. We, you and I can talk about the negatives and I, and I completely agree. There's a lot of shit out there right now that I'm not cool with. A lot of people in power that I don't want them to be making decisions about our national security. But all that aside, I'm a hundred percent behind the young people that join. We need them.

• 2:09:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:54Speaker 05

  And like if we, they weren't there and they weren't lethal and they weren't good at what they do and they weren't committed, this country wouldn't be what it is. It is. And it's, it's wild for a lot of people to think this, but I fully believe that every day Beijing and Moscow, they wake up. They look at us, they look at our military and they say, today is not the day. I absolutely unequivocally believe that.

• 2:10:17Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah. I mean, you, you don't think the Pacific would be like World War Three if we weren't around?

• 2:10:22Speaker 05

  Exactly. Taiwan would not be Taiwan.

• 2:10:24Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:25Speaker 05

  I, I think that's one thing that I realized that the reason the Russians are here. Collecting intelligence against us. And they're doing it today.

• 2:10:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:35Speaker 05

  Is because they fear us as a threat. And if they didn't fear us as a threat. They'd be a lot past further than Ukraine.

• 2:10:43Jack Murphy?

  Just the fact that we exist, that we are a democracy and that we make it work is a threat to their system of governance.

• 2:10:49Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 2:10:49Jack Murphy?

  Because people in their country look at it like, hmm, maybe that could work here.

• 2:10:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, yeah, I mean, so. Even on a worst day, I'd rather be in the United States than anywhere else, right? Like, um, and, you know, again, it's just, I am. I'm immensely grateful. The torch has been passed, right? The next generation who wear the uniform today and. Politics have nothing to do with this. It is strictly national security and. If they weren't doing the jobs that they did, and some of them are hard, some of them are, are mindless, some of them are just like. You're just sitting there watching a piece of grass, right? Like at a guard shack, right?

• 2:11:27Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:28Speaker 05

  Um, but it all matters. I, I really believe that. I think that if we didn't have that, you know. What would stop Russia or China from doing their shit?

• 2:11:39Jack Murphy?

  Is there anything else you want to talk about? Is there any other books on the horizon here?

• 2:11:45Speaker 05

  There's no books. Um, we'll see. I mean, I think, you know, I think, um,

• 2:11:53Speaker 05

  we have some really cool stuff coming out on the show.

• 2:11:55Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 2:11:56Speaker 05

  Just flew in the E4B, which is the doomsday jet.

• 2:12:00Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah. We were just talking about that on the last interview.

• 2:12:02Speaker 05

  Oh, you were? Really?

• 2:12:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, because the gentleman was a survivor of the attacks on the Pentagon in nine eleven.

• 2:12:09Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 2:12:10Jack Murphy?

  And he was like, the, I'm trying to remember the position he was in. Um, he was like the deputy, deputy joint chief secretary guy. He was right there. So like, he knew about all that stuff and that they sent up the doomsday plane that day.

• 2:12:28Speaker 05

  Um, so we got to fly in that. That's coming out at the end of the month. That'll be a really cool. And I gotta tell you, that thing is like a cult thing, Jack. Like, we were flying in it and people were sending me pictures of it, like over their state. Like, is this you? And I'm like, how the hell did you know that we are, we are flying that? So, um, if you like stories, check out our stuff. It's completely apolitical. It's really something that'll make you feel proud. They're just some really good human interest stories. We just did one on Artemis, which I think was probably one of the most beautiful stories we told. Artemis, of course, is the return to, to moon. Uh, we did something about, we did a story about how the Navy recovers. As long as there's been manned missions to, to outer space that splash down.

• 2:13:11Jack Murphy?

  Yep.

• 2:13:12Speaker 05

  Navy's on, it's a really cool thing. And people don't realize this, that, you know, how important that if the astronauts don't splash down and aren't safely delivered, the mission fails, right?

• 2:13:21Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:22Speaker 05

  So, um,

• 2:13:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, it's a pararescue guys that go in.

• 2:13:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's, and EMTs and we interviewed everyone, including down to the cooks. And like, the cooks were like, I'm a cook, you know, I'm a cook on a boat, on a ship. Like, we have a lot to do with morale, but when the astronauts came back, one of the first thing they said is, what, what do you want? What, what can we do to make you happy? And they're like, we want a burger. And I got to cook them a burger. And it's like, that's a story that I'm gonna do, live on for the rest of my life. And it's like, yeah, man, that stuff's cool. It's just, you know, I don't know. In this day and age, man, it's nice to see people who like this idea that they can belong to something that's bigger than them. Especially young people. I think, you know, we, we, we rag on the younger generation, but I actually think they're gonna, you know, man, at some point, they're gonna be taking care of us.

• 2:14:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, there's this like, this is a whole sidebar, but there's like this interesting trajectory, because I do a lot of these interviews and I meet a lot of people. Start off as a young soldier. You're very, you know, go getter, very excited, have these like formative experiences. And then guys spend the entire rest of their career chasing that initial experience they had. You know, they want to be back on a team. They want to be, you know, in the mix, doing that. And that's very hard to do, actually, as you, as you promote up through the, through the bureaucracy. Um, and then eventually what sets in is this, you know, you become jaded, cynical, like, I'm done with this shit. Get me out of here. I'm ready to retire.

• 2:14:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:14:50Jack Murphy?

  But as you're, as you are there, there is an eighteen year old kid joining the army at that same exact moment. And this is his moment.

• 2:14:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:14:59Jack Murphy?

  He's having this big experience.

• 2:15:01Speaker 05

  That's right. You know,

• 2:15:02Jack Murphy?

  That you had.

• 2:15:03Speaker 05

  I, I think as, as you get older, it's important to, like, like I said, literally pass the torch. I know guys that are, like you said, that are still chasing that. And it's like, dude, what are you, you're fifty-eight years old.

• 2:15:14Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, it's, it's over.

• 2:15:15Speaker 05

  Like, let, let it,

• 2:15:16Jack Murphy?

  At least that part of your life is over.

• 2:15:18Speaker 05

  And that's okay. Like, I think, I think as, as, as dudes, especially if you've lived that life, it's really hard.

• 2:15:24Jack Murphy?

  It's very hard, yeah.

• 2:15:25Speaker 05

  But I don't know about you, but I, I'm, I'm really happy. Dude, my knees hurt just getting out of bed. Like, you know, chasing like twenty-six year olds climbing down missile silos or submarines. It's like, dude, I can't.

• 2:15:38Jack Murphy?

  Well, i- i- in my mind, I can still do it.

• 2:15:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:15:41Jack Murphy?

  But I, I, I know intellectually on some level that if I went and did, like, I'd last like two or three days.

• 2:15:47Speaker 05

  Yeah. And you're like,

• 2:15:47Jack Murphy?

  Be totally done.

• 2:15:48Speaker 05

  There's a reason I got out. And that's okay. So, I mean, look, it's, I think for dudes, we all want that sense of adventure, that sense of accomplishment. And,

• 2:15:57Jack Murphy?

  You just have to find something else to

• 2:15:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:15:59Jack Murphy?

  Fill that void.

• 2:16:00Speaker 05

  But let's be honest, there's like a shelf life physically for you to be able to do that.

• 2:16:04Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 2:16:04Speaker 05

  And I'm really grateful. I'm sure you feel this too, you know, grateful that I got to do it when I physically could do it.

• 2:16:10Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you can't be a soldier forever.

• 2:16:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:16:12Jack Murphy?

  Uh, even these federal, um, you know, the FBI, the CIA, there's mandatory retirement ages. Like, real life is gonna hit you. You know, you can delay it as long as, you know, for quite a while, but eventually, yeah, you're gonna have to figure it out.

• 2:16:26Speaker 05

  I'll say this to the camera. One of the biggest things I'm sure you can agree with is like, there's a point you're gonna hit in your life where you're too old to go do something. And while you're young is the chance, you know, I don't want to tell him to join the military. It's a very personal decision, but there are things you can do when you're eighteen, twenty, thirty even.

• 2:16:47Jack Murphy?

  There, there are caps. I mean, become an NYPD

• 2:16:50Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 2:16:51Jack Murphy?

  Officer. I mean, there are age limits, yeah.

• 2:16:53Speaker 05

  And, and even if it's like, just go travel to the Amazon or, you know, travel the world. There are things that you can do when you're young, that when you're our age.

• 2:17:02Jack Murphy?

  Wife and kids and a career becomes a little harder.

• 2:17:04Speaker 05

  Right. And then you reach our age and you're like, you, it's that moment of regret. Like, I wish I had done that. You don't ever want to be that. You don't ever want to be forty or fifty years old wishing you had done something that you can't do.

• 2:17:15Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Um, well, thank you, Naveed,

• 2:17:18Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 2:17:19Jack Murphy?

  Coming in and doing this interview. Uh, this is great. I love the book. Um, people can go and check it out. Again, it's out there. Uh, How to Catch a Russian Spy. Um, that's it, man. I really appreciate you coming into it.

• 2:17:34Speaker 05

  Really appreciate being here.

• 2:17:35Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. And, um, yeah, for everyone else out there, we'll talk to you next time. Thanks for tuning in.

• 2:17:44Speaker 06

  Hello, everyone. If you're hearing this, uh, you are not a member of the Patreon. You can get your hands on ad-free episodes that come out early. And you can ask us questions. Maybe we'll answer them. You can also watch the Team House podcast completely ad-free and early. And you can also watch it live as we interview our guests. And it's the best way to support the channel. So if you can, if you're open to it, you can go to patreon.com/the team house. That link is in the description. Uh, we appreciate the supporters and we hope you would consider being one. So it's patreon.com/the team house. Thanks, guys.

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  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

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  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:24:07Jack Murphy?

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings. 911 Nashville returns.

• 2:24:17Speaker 05

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 2:24:19Jack Murphy?

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:24:26Speaker 05

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:24:27Jack Murphy?

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:24:43Speaker 03

  When intimate itch strikes, waiting it out isn't always an option. That's why there's Vagisil Maximum Strength Anti-Ich Cream. It provides fast relief from intense external feminine itching and burning. And 92% of women said Vagisil provided long-lasting itch relief. Intimate itch can have more than 60 causes. From everyday things like shaving, pads, tight clothing, to yeast infection-related irritation. Vagisil helps protect delicate skin from further irritation. Trusted by generations, clinically and gynecologist-tested. Don't let discomfort get in the way. Visit vagisil.com to find the relief that's right for you.

• 2:25:14Jack Murphy?

  Right now, you can save 60% on SimpliSafe home security. Traditional security systems only alert you after a break-in has already happened. And that's too late. SimpliSafe is changing that.

• 2:25:28Speaker 00

  Stop, this is SimpliSafe. You're being monitored and recorded. I'm requesting police dispatch.

• 2:25:33Jack Murphy?

  Using the Outdoor Camera Series 2 and Advanced AI Alerts, our live US-based agents identify potential threats on your property and help deter them. So the intruder never gets into your house. The break-in never happens. Because we don't just alert, we stop crime before it starts. SimpliSafe monitoring and deterrence plans start around $1 a day with no long-term contracts. Order today to get 60% off a new system with professional monitoring. Save now at simplisafe.com/iHeartRadio. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time. Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 2:26:15Speaker 00

  Hanging out at the pool is great. Relaxing and playing Vegas-style games on my phone at the same time. Drinking one hand and a blackjack in the other. It's all at SpinQuest. Over 1,000 games, including your favorite slots and table games. Be cool with this summer special. New players get $30 coin packs for 10 at spinquest.com.

• 2:26:38Speaker 01

  SpinQuest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:26:45Jack Murphy?

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings. 911 Nashville returns.

• 2:27:24Speaker 05

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 2:27:26Jack Murphy?

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:27:33Speaker 05

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:27:34Jack Murphy?

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:27:49Speaker 03

  When intimate itch strikes, waiting it out isn't always an option. That's why there's Vagisil Maximum Strength Anti-Ich Cream. It provides fast relief from intense external feminine itching and burning. And 92% of women said Vagisil provided long-lasting itch relief. Intimate itch can have more than 60 causes. From everyday things like shaving, pads, tight clothing, to yeast infection-related irritation. Vagisil helps protect delicate skin from further irritation. Trusted by generations, clinically and gynecologist-tested. Don't let discomfort get in the way. Visit vagisil.com to find the relief that's right for you.

• 2:28:21Jack Murphy?

  Right now, you can save 60% on SimpliSafe home security. When an intruder approaches a home, they expect a camera. What they don't expect.

• 2:28:30Speaker 00

  Stop, this is SimpliSafe. You're being monitored and recorded. I'm requesting police dispatch.

• 2:28:35Jack Murphy?

  Unlike traditional alarm systems, SimpliSafe uses smart AI cameras that spot potential threats and alert live US-based agents to help stop a break-in before it starts. Our agents intervene in under 30 seconds to deter intruders while they're still outside, preventing them from getting close to your family. Plus, you control your privacy and recordings. And with a 60-day money-back guarantee, you can try us risk-free. Monitoring and deterrence plans start around $1 a day. Order today to get 60% off a new system with professional monitoring. Save now at simplisafe.com/iHeartRadio. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time. 30 seconds response time requires monitoring plan with outdoor protection starting at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 2:29:21Speaker 03

  Hey, guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Cris Mornings Pumpkin Spice Latte, and it's the best time to cozy up and play SpinQuest. They have over 1,000 different slots in all my favorite casino-style games. And they're running a deal for all new players. A $30 coin package for just $10. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com, and download the app today.

• 2:29:46Speaker 01

  SpinQuest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:29:51Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:30:23Jack Murphy?

  911, what's your emergency?

• 2:30:26Speaker 02

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:30:30Jack Murphy?

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:30:33Speaker 00

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 2:30:35Jack Murphy?

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:30:42Speaker 00

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:30:43Jack Murphy?

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:30:59Speaker 03

  When intimate itch strikes, waiting it out isn't always an option. That's why there's Vagisil Maximum Strength Anti-Ich Cream. It provides fast relief from intense external feminine itching and burning. And 92% of women said Vagisil provided long-lasting itch relief. Intimate itch can have more than 60 causes. From everyday things like shaving, pads, tight clothing, to yeast infection-related irritation. Vagisil helps protect delicate skin from further irritation. Trusted by generations, clinically and gynecologist-tested. Don't let discomfort get in the way. Visit vagisil.com to find the relief that's right for you.

• 2:31:32Jack Murphy?

  Right now, you can save 60% on SimpliSafe home security. Because what a break-in really costs isn't your home or your valuables. It's the feeling that your home stopped being safe. That's why SimpliSafe doesn't wait for danger to reach your family. We help stop it before it gets close with not just one, but three layers of protection. One, preventing threats outside with smart AI cameras and live US-based agents who intervene to deter intruders before they break in. Two, sounding the alarm at points of entry. And three, agents requesting emergency response when needed. Three layers, all working together to keep your loved ones safe. Plus, you control your privacy and recordings. And with the 60-day money-back guarantee, you can try us risk-free. Monitoring and deterrence plans start around $1 a day.

• 2:32:15Jack Murphy?

  Order today to get 60% off a new system with professional monitoring. Save now at simplisafe.com/iheartradio. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time. Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 2:32:31Speaker 00

  Happy birthday, America. It's time to celebrate and play your favorite Las Vegas casino games by American-owned Spinquest.com. What's better than fireworks and American pie? Hitting a blackjack in the palm of your hand, and you won't lose your fingers. Over 1,000 games, including slots and live dealers. And $30 coin packs are on sale for 10. Spinquest.com. Buy American players for American players.

• 2:32:56Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:33:02Jack Murphy?

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:33:33Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:33:41Jack Murphy?

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:33:43Speaker 00

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 2:33:45Jack Murphy?

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:33:52Speaker 00

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:33:53Jack Murphy?

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:34:09Speaker 03

  When intimate itch strikes, waiting it out isn't always an option. That's why there's Vagisil Maximum Strength Anti-Ich Cream. It provides fast relief from intense external feminine itching and burning. And 92% of women said Vagisil provided long-lasting itch relief. Intimate itch can have more than 60 causes. From everyday things like shaving, pads, tight clothing, to yeast infection-related irritation. Vagisil helps protect delicate skin from further irritation. Trusted by generations, clinically and gynecologist-tested. Don't let discomfort get in the way. Visit vagisil.com to find the relief that's right for you.

• 2:34:41Jack Murphy?

  Right now, you can save 60% on SimpliSafe home security. Traditional security systems only alert you after a break-in has already happened. And that's too late. SimpliSafe is changing that. Stop. This is SimpliSafe. You're being monitored and recorded. I'm requesting police dispatch. Using the Outdoor Camera Series 2 and Advanced AI Alerts, our live US-based agents identify potential threats on your property and help deter them. So the intruder never gets into your house. The break-in never happens. Because we don't just alert, we stop crime before it starts. SimpliSafe monitoring and deterrence plans start around $1 a day with no long-term contracts.

• 2:35:24Jack Murphy?

  Order today to get 60% off a new system with professional monitoring. Save now at simplisafe.com/iheartradio. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time. Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 2:35:42Speaker 00

  Oh, I have had no luck lately. Wait, lady luck?

• 2:35:46Speaker 03

  Gretzky, I got you. I've had so much luck on spinquest.com. They have all of my favorite games, slot games, live blackjack, craps, and bubble craps. You can even get a $30 coin pack for just $10.

• 2:36:00Speaker 00

  $10 for 30? I'm adding it over to spinquest.com right now.

• 2:36:04Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:36:11Jack Murphy?

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:36:43Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:36:50Jack Murphy?

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:36:53Speaker 00

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 2:36:54Jack Murphy?

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:37:01Speaker 00

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:37:03Jack Murphy?

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:37:18Speaker 03

  When intimate itch strikes, waiting it out isn't always an option. That's why there's Vagisil Maximum Strength Anti-Ich Cream. It provides fast relief from intense external feminine itching and burning. And 92% of women said Vagisil provided long-lasting itch relief. Intimate itch can have more than 60 causes. From everyday things like shaving, pads, tight clothing, to yeast infection-related irritation. Vagisil helps protect delicate skin from further irritation. Trusted by generations, clinically and gynecologist-tested. Don't let discomfort get in the way. Visit vagisil.com to find the relief that's right for you.

• 2:37:50Jack Murphy?

  Right now, you can save 60% on SimpliSafe home security. Traditional security systems only alert you after a break-in has already happened. And that's too late. SimpliSafe is changing that. Stop. This is SimpliSafe. You're being monitored and recorded. I'm requesting police dispatch. Using the Outdoor Camera Series 2 and Advanced AI Alerts, our live US-based agents identify potential threats on your property and help deter them. So the intruder never gets into your house. The break-in never happens. Because we don't just alert, we stop crime before it starts. SimpliSafe monitoring and deterrence plans start around $1 a day with no long-term contracts.

• 2:38:33Jack Murphy?

  Order today to get 60% off a new system with professional monitoring. Save now at simplisafe.com/iheartradio. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time. Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 2:38:51Speaker 00

  Oh, I have had no luck lately. Wait, lady luck?

• 2:38:56Speaker 03

  Gretzky, I got you. I've had so much luck on spinquest.com. They have all of my favorite games, slot games, live blackjack, craps, and bubble craps. You can even get a $30 coin pack for just $10.

• 2:39:09Speaker 00

  $10 for 30? I'm adding it over to spinquest.com right now.

• 2:39:13Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:39:20Speaker 03

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:39:52Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:40:00Jack Murphy?

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:40:02Speaker 00

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 2:40:04Jack Murphy?

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:40:11Speaker 00

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:40:12Jack Murphy?

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:40:30Speaker 02

  When intimate itch strikes, waiting it out isn't always an option. That's why there's Vagisil Maximum Strength Anti-Ich Cream. It provides fast relief from intense external feminine itching and burning. And 92% of women said Vagisil provided long-lasting itch relief. Intimate itch can have more than 60 causes. From everyday things like shaving, pads, tight clothing, to yeast infection-related irritation. Vagisil helps protect delicate skin from further irritation. Trusted by generations, clinically and gynecologists tested. Don't let discomfort get in the way. Visit vagisil.com to find the relief that's right for you.

• 2:41:02Jack Murphy?

  Right now, you can save 60% on Simply Safe home security. When an intruder approaches a home, they expect a camera. What they don't expect... Stop. This is Simply Safe. You're being monitored and recorded. I'm requesting police dispatch. Unlike traditional alarm systems, Simply Safe uses smart AI cameras that spot potential threats and alert live US-based agents to help stop a break-in before it starts. Our agents intervene in under 30 seconds to deter intruders while they're still outside, preventing them from getting close to your family. Plus, you control your privacy and recordings. And with a 60-day money-back guarantee, you can try us risk-free. Monitoring and deterrence plans start around $1 a day.

• 2:41:44Jack Murphy?

  Order today to get 60% off a new system with professional monitoring. Save now at simplysafe.com/iheartradio. Simply Safe: Ahead of Crime in Real Time. 30-second response time. Requires monitoring plan with outdoor protection starting at $49.99 a month.

• 2:41:59Speaker 00

  Visit simplysafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 2:42:03Speaker 00

  Hanging out at the pool is great. Relaxing and playing Vegas-style games on my phone at the same time. Drinking one hand and a blackjack in the other. It's all at Spinquest. Over 1,000 games, including your favorite slots and table games. Be cool with this summer special. New players get $30 coin packs for 10 at spinquest.com.

• 2:42:26Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:42:33Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:43:11Jack Murphy?

  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:43:19Speaker 00

  All sins swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:43:22Jack Murphy?

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:43:23Speaker 00

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:43:26Jack Murphy?

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:43:42Speaker 02

  When intimate itch strikes, waiting it out isn't always an option. That's why there's Vagisil Maximum Strength Anti-Ich Cream. It provides fast relief from intense external feminine itching and burning. And 92% of women said Vagisil provided long-lasting itch relief. Intimate itch can have more than 60 causes. From everyday things like shaving, pads, tight clothing, to yeast infection-related irritation. Vagisil helps protect delicate skin from further irritation. Trusted by generations, clinically and gynecologists tested. Don't let discomfort get in the way. Visit vagisil.com to find the relief that's right for you.

• 2:44:15Jack Murphy?

  Right now, you can save 60% on Simply Safe home security. Because what a break-in really costs isn't your home or your valuables. It's the feeling that your home stopped being safe. That's why Simply Safe doesn't wait for danger to reach your family. We help stop it before it gets close with not just one, but three layers of protection. One, preventing threats outside with smart AI cameras and live US-based agents who intervene to deter intruders before they break in. Two, sounding the alarm at points of entry. And three, agents requesting emergency response when needed. Three layers, all working together to keep your loved ones safe. Plus, you control your privacy and recordings. And with the 60-day money-back guarantee, you can try us risk-free. Monitoring and deterrence plans start around $1 a day.

• 2:44:58Jack Murphy?

  Order today to get 60% off a new system with professional monitoring. Save now at simplysafe.com/iheartradio. Simply Safe: Ahead of Crime in Real Time. Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month.

• 2:45:11Speaker 00

  Visit simplysafe.com/licenses for alarm license information. Hanging out at the pool is great. Relaxing and playing Vegas-style games on my phone at the same time. Drinking one hand and a blackjack in the other. It's all at Spinquest. Over 1,000 games, including your favorite slots and table games. Be cool with this summer special. New players get $30 coin packs for 10 at spinquest.com.

• 2:45:38Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:45:45Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:46:23Jack Murphy?

  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:46:31Speaker 00

  All sins swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:46:34Jack Murphy?

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:46:35Speaker 00

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:46:38Jack Murphy?

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:46:49Speaker 03

  Say what? Say epti-vai-epti. Eptinazema of JJMR treatment, like I did. Tap the ad to learn more at byepti.com. Ask your doctor if it's time to say epti-vai-epti.

• 2:47:03Speaker 06

  Hola, es Mr. Monopoly. ¿Has soñado con ganarte 50,000 dólares para el pago inicial de una casa? ¿O una gift Cherokee del año? Monopoly volvió a McDonald's. Y esos son algunos de los premios que podrías ganar. Fe por lo tuyo. No se necesita comprar 50 estados de Estados Unidos y DC. 18 años o más. Consulte las reglas en playermcd.com y playermcd.com/moe para información sobre jugar sin una compra por correo antes del 2 de noviembre. El Chance Hard game termina el 8 de noviembre. El juego termina el 22 de noviembre de 2026. Detalles de los premios en las reglas. Monopoly es una marca registrada de Hasbro.

• 2:47:33Speaker 00

  You know what? It sucks to be bored. But when I get on my phone and play real casino games on spinquest.com, the time flies by. That two-hour wait at the DMV seems like 10 minutes. Play your favorite spots. Live blackjack, live craps, with a live dealer. New players, $30 coin packs are on sale for $10. Play spinquest.com and you'll never be bored again.

• 2:47:57Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:48:03Jack Murphy?

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:48:34Speaker 02

  Some days, it's the little things you look forward to most. And with Pepperidge Farm's thoughtfully crafted cookies, there's always something worth savoring. Maybe it's a Milano, made with premium chocolate between two delicate biscuits. A Sausalito, baked with rich milk chocolate chunks and macadamia nuts. Or the simple, buttery goodness of a chessman. So pour the coffee, find a comfy chair, and take a moment to treat yourself to a cookie. Or two. Pepperidge Farm. Have a little taste.