Psychedelics with Sam Harris

Sam Harris joins the pod again to discuss psychedelics — including his experience with LSD and psilocybin — and shares his thoughts on who should and shouldn’t take them. He also explains how these drugs can provide you with a profound perspective on life, give you clarity, and help you hit the reset button. Follow Sam on Twitter, @SamHarrisOrg. Scott opens with how big tech entering healthcare is exactly what dispersion is meant to do. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Scott Galloway?

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• 0:48Speaker 01

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• 1:07Scott Galloway?

  Episode 81, The Atomic Number of Thallium. Raiders of the Lost Ark premiered in 1981. True story, I suffer from a rare form of amnesia where I can't remember 80s music. And there is no cure. There is no cure. Get it? Truth be told, I was a bit of a fashion plate in the 80s. I wore 501s, topsiders with those socks, and oversized Varnais on my head. I called the whole look "Losing Your Virginity at 19."

• 1:45Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to the 81st episode of the Prof G Pod. In today's episode, we speak with one of our favorite Blue Flame thinkers, Sam Harris. I just think the world of Sam Harris. I find him courageous, crazy smart. I think he's a soulful person. The stuff I like is when he talks about parenting, in addition to neuroscience and philosophy. But there are people... When you think about the people you admire, the people I admire, they're fearless. Muhammad Ali, the shit he said when he said it was fearless and it cost him a lot. And I feel that Sam Harris is this sort of relentless pursuit of the truth, regardless of who it offends, and it's backed by science.

• 2:28Scott Galloway?

  I think he approaches it with absolutely no, as far as I can discern, no political agenda. Anyway, Sam and I discuss a lot, so we're breaking our conversation into two episodes. Today, Sam shares what we need to know about the $5 billion psychedelics market, his experience with these drugs, and how to live more ethically. Next week, you'll hear our conversation on woke culture with Sam. I can't imagine anyone more interesting to provide a viewpoint on that. Tune in. Anyways, what's happening? Evidence the big firms are getting into and disrupting the healthcare industry is continuing to make waves. We're about to enter what I believe is going to be the most robust, inspiring six months of new business formation in the last several decades.

• 3:13Scott Galloway?

  Why? Because some of the biggest industries in the world are attracting capital and there's a general viewpoint and an acceptance that the way we did things yesterday isn't going to get us where we need to be tomorrow, specifically around some of the biggest industries in the world. Education, media, finance, i.e. fintech, and, and the biggest one, most disruption, more destruction and creative of shareholder value, you guessed it, healthcare. And it's not just the new guys. It's not just the guy who went to, and it's usually a guy, let's be honest, who went to Harvard, dropped out, went to work for a hedge fund, is now raising hundreds of millions of dollars and buying traction in the private markets. We saw, we've seen some big players here. Walmart introduced its own low-cost insulin brand. This is interesting.

• 3:57Scott Galloway?

  If you want to talk about things that actually move the needle or evidence that capitalism actually might work, Walmart coming into this category, I think, is, you know, good for the world, good for the planet. And so it's easy to be cynical about big companies. But actually, for some reason, I like Walmart. I'm not entirely sure. Maybe it's because I like their CEO, but I'm always sort of been a fan of Walmart. Anyway, Walmart said their medicine will cost 58% and 75% less than the current price of branded insulin products for uninsured patients. So get this, insulin. You know, can't live without it, can't live without it, right? And people have to have it. And the fact that Walmart can come in and basically reduce the cost by two thirds says something about the incumbent players. This, I think, I find this is really exciting.

• 4:41Scott Galloway?

  Last year, we predicted the big tech essentially had no choice but enter the fields of healthcare and education. So if we look at a scorecard around where we are so far, you'd have to say I was, I'm sort of one and one, and that is, big firms are entering healthcare, and we'll talk more about that. But they are not, or big tech has not entered education. Why? I wrote an article in New York Magazine saying that big tech firms would partner with the elite universities and dramatically expand their enrollments using a mixture of small and big tech and kind of clean up the market or consolidate the market. And I was wrong. Why? Because unlike big tech firms, which are very shareholder driven, the economic reward is not economic reward at universities. The leadership and administration every day ask themselves, how can we pay ourselves

• 5:26Scott Galloway?

  more and reduce our accountability? And the ultimate strategy, or the strategy that keeps on giving, is one of air mesification. And that is, let's continue to not admit anybody. Harvard admits 1,400 people from 50,000 applications. They have an endowment that if you divide it by the number of freshmen is $30 million per student. Does that make any sense? No. Is Harvard a transformative, incredible experience for people? Yes. If they decided for some perverted, fucked up sense of exclusivity to not enable, to not provide that incredible transformative experience to more people despite the fact they would not have to sacrifice any quality, it would not erode their brand, they have ample resources to do this? Yes. Why?

• 6:11Scott Galloway?

  Because leadership and alumni all get drunk off this bullshit notion of exclusivity. And they have not, in fact, embraced the opportunity to come in and increase their revenues and increase their social good. Why? Because we as academics and administrators get tremendous psychic income from bragging that we turned away 92% of our applicants this year versus 89 last year. Bottom line is, it's sort of a rant for admitting, I was wrong. These universities have doubled down on exclusivity. They're not expanding their freshman seats. There is some hope across the public universities. I did a interesting meeting with the University of Illinois. Chancellor and some of his leadership and they're looking to expand opportunities and broaden

• 6:53Scott Galloway?

  their freshman admissions. But basically, the only way education is going to move the needle in America is through our public universities where two thirds of students end up. So anyways, I'm I'm hopeful there, but I got that one wrong. Where we were right is Big Tech has in fact moved in to to healthcare. We've seen major moves in within healthcare, Big Tech, especially when Amazon launched an online pharmacy back in November 2020. So why would they need to do this? Why would they need to go into healthcare? It's a $3 trillion industry who has raised prices faster than inflation. And at the same time, the MPS scores or the outcomes have actually declined. So this this literally defines disruption. And that is you raise prices faster than inflation

• 7:38Scott Galloway?

  without any underlying increase in consumer satisfaction. That just spells an industry that is sticking out the mother of all chins. And that the industry that is most disruptible in the world right now is the $3 trillion healthcare industry. So who's going to come in? You'll see a ton of startups. But you're also going to see what will probably be the fastest growing healthcare company of over $1 billion. And that is Amazon surrounding healthcare with Alexa, with your phone or your app on your phone with Prime. They know the food you order through Whole Foods or through Amazon. I think it's called Fresh. They have a fulfillment network to get you your prescriptions. They have the credibility and the skills to sit on top of data sets. And that effectively is sort of what healthcare is, is the ability to sit or the opportunity to sit on

• 8:22Scott Galloway?

  a digital data set of your corpus. And then and then this is the exciting thing from a strategy standpoint, healthcare needs to move from being a defensive on your heels, disease driven industry to an offensive on your toes, health driven industry. And that is doing diagnostics, looking at your diet, looking at the products, looking at your body mass index, looking at the zip code you live in, looking at your status with the relationships. This is all data that Amazon can build or create a digital corpus of you around. And then start adjusting, start suggesting certain types of diets, certain types of exercise, complete with Exercise equipment you need, a wearable Amazon Halo, which doesn't tell the time,

• 9:03Scott Galloway?

  but tells you your mood, your, your blood pressure, your heartbeat, your body mass index, how well you sleep or don't sleep. We are going to walk into our homes and Amazon Alexa is going to say, Dear Smith family, would you like to cut your health insurance costs in half? If yes, say, tell me more about Amazon Prime Health Insurance. That's going to happen. They're also probably going to go into diagnostics. They will probably also roll a bunch of features into Amazon Prime, including what Amazon is great at is they'll figure out what are the high margin industries that we actually want to be in, whether it's dermatology or physical therapy. I don't know what the high margin components of healthcare are. They'll go vertical there, similar to the way they go vertical in batteries or vertical and sort of basic elements with their Amazon private label brand.

• 9:48Scott Galloway?

  And then they will outsource the rest, the shitty business. For example, pediatrics is supposedly a shitty business. And they'll say, all right, we'll build a platform where everyone comes to this platform. It's similar to the third party marketplace where they sell more gross merchandise volume than their actual Amazon retail offering. They will create a platform where you can come and find specialists, doctors, primary care, and they will go vertically into the high margin parts of that business. And they will just offer a platform for the rest and take fees. And they will begin consolidating the healthcare industry. And if they can consolidate, if someone had said there was going to be a player in healthcare 30 years ago, they would end up owning 40 or 50% of it. Or there's going to be a player that's going to own 40 or 50% in e-commerce.

• 10:31Scott Galloway?

  It might not be obvious it would be easier to go and get 40 to 50% of e-commerce, which is what Amazon has established. So Amazon coming into the healthcare industry and getting 10, 20, 30% of the industry is by no means, no means unthinkable. It's very doable. And once they start to show any progress towards this, the market will provide them with a cheap capital such that they can pull away. And all these little health groups, even hospital groups, aren't going to be able to compete because they won't be able to find the cheap capital that Amazon offers. And we'll think, well, okay, Amazon can't do an appendectomy. You can't have your Spleen removed at home. Do you have your spleen removed? Gosh, I hope not. Anyways, but supposedly about two thirds of all medical costs could be

• 11:16Scott Galloway?

  digitized or could be done remotely. So if you have your, if you have your appendix removed, or if you say, go get a vasectomy, not that it's on my mind at my age, but anyways, it's time to close up shop, folks. It's time to close up shop. Anyway, the pre consultation, I go in for these stupid pre consultations with doctors and it's like, why the fuck am I here? Do I meet you? What, what do we need to pre consult around? And then you have the procedure. Good. You have to go into a doctor's office. I'll get you that. And then there's maybe there's post follow-up therapy. There's prescriptions. There's if you have a knee replaced, maybe you want a home, not only your prescriptions, you want to do physical therapy, you can absolutely

• 11:59Scott Galloway?

  digitize that. You want to maybe come up with new products, new types of diet. Anyways, about two thirds supposedly of healthcare cementing can be dispersed away from doctors offices and hospitals. Think about COVID-19, the biggest health crisis in over a century and likely 98, 99% of the people who contracted, endured and developed antibodies for COVID-19 likely never entered a doctor's office or a hospital. So if, if we can disperse 98%, 99% of the treatment and the resources that went into COVID-19 away from doctors offices and hospitals, why wouldn't we be able to say, take 20, 30, 50% and disperse it away from the medical industrial complex? What does this all come down to? A lot of people ask me, who will be the next $2 trillion

• 12:43Scott Galloway?

  company? So far, I think Apple and Microsoft have hit that. And people say, who Scott, who will be next? Who will be next? Cause I'm known for making predictions. Get a lot wrong. Get a lot wrong, but that doesn't stop me. Anyway, anyway, I say, I don't know who's going to be the next $2 trillion company, but I'm convinced the first $3 trillion company will be Amazon on the back of the most disruptable industry in the history of business, US healthcare.

• 13:11Scott Galloway?

  Stay with us. We'll be right back for our conversation on psychedelics with Sam Harris.

• 13:18Scott Galloway?

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• 14:00Scott Galloway?

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• 14:19Scott Galloway?

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• 15:04Scott Galloway?

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• 15:40Scott Galloway?

  Welcome back. Here's our conversation with neuroscientist and philosopher Sam Harris.

• 15:47Scott Galloway?

  Sam, where does this podcast find you?

• 15:48Speaker 02

  I am home in Los Angeles.

• 15:50Scott Galloway?

  So let's bust right into it. Psychedelics, a market that was roughly $5 billion in 2020, is expected to reach $11 billion by 2027. So how should we be thinking of this as a market? Do you see this as a private market, a great investment opportunity, something that has real societal value, something that should be managed by regulators and healthcare? How do you think of the market for psychedelics?

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Well, it's a difficult question because it really depends on the compound you're talking about. And I mean, some things are in principle generic until the end of the world, and things like mushrooms, right? But then people will be investing in the synthetic psilocybin, you know, active component in mushrooms. And there are companies that have actually one just went public around that, a tie, A T A I Pharmaceuticals. So just how much profit there is to be made here, I actually wouldn't be a great judge. And I think there's immense value. And whether that that value can be captured in every case by, you know, some

• 16:55Speaker 02

  rational business, I don't know. But I think we, you know, if the government doesn't do something very stupid and coercive in the meantime, I think we will get to a point where therapy using very likely psilocybin and MDMA is the most likely first compounds should be more widely available. And there'll be, you know, professional associations around all of this. I mean, we need therapists who are trained to guide people. We need centers that are that are nice to visit where people can do a day long session. And I think a lot of business could grow up around this. I think there'll be beautiful retreat centers,

• 17:40Speaker 02

  you know, something you think the post ranch on psilocybin. And, you know, I think there should be those things. I mean, there's an immense opportunity to help people. There's no question there.

• 17:51Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, it feels as if the the stage was initially legalizing recreational use. And it seems now there's this huge burgeoning industry in what we'd, I guess loosely term its medicinal qualities. I'm curious, who do you think should and shouldn't be taking LSD and psilocybin?

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Well, the the standard answer to that is anyone with a history or, you know, a familial history, you know, a first order relative with any significant psychiatric diagnosis, right? So, you know, psychosis being the first, but in a manic depression, you know, although it's it's obviously a treatment for, you know, psilocybin now increasingly is a treatment for severe depression. But, you know, bipolar, I think, is probably contraindicated. I'm not a clinician, but I just know what the the researchers are are selecting against in in doing their their studies.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  You know, whether any psychedelic is actually raising a person's risk for a psychiatric condition is hard to say because when we take something like schizophrenia, the the time of onset is usually in the 20s. And that's usually the time when people first start experimenting with drugs of of any kind, you know, late teens, early 20s. So the stories of of people being tipped into psychosis based on a, you know, first LSD trip or or psilocybin trip that one hears, I mean, these are not the the most frequent occurrences, but one hears about that association. But it's it's it's hard to disentangle that from just the time course of of the onset

• 19:34Speaker 02

  of schizophrenia in general. So I, you know, I certainly wouldn't be eager to to take LSD or psilocybin if you if I knew I had a high risk for schizophrenia because it really does seem like it mimics, it can, you know, a bad trip can certainly mimic psychosis. But as to whether or not it's really raising a person's risk, I'm not sure anyone's in a position to say at this point.

• 20:01Scott Galloway?

  So, and you've been very open about this. You had your first psychedelic experience in over 25 years. Can you walk us through why you went on kind of a self-imposed hiatus from these drugs and why you decided to try them again?

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Well, it's actually based on some of the concerns you just raised. I had uniformly good and positive and sanity increasing trips in the beginning until I didn't. I mean, this is not all that uncommon, actually, to have a lot of good trips and then to suddenly have a bad one. And then the door to hell remains ajar for really the rest of one's psychedelic career. So, once I started having bad trips occasionally, and they were every bit as bad as the good ones were good, it began to seem like a kind of spin of a roulette wheel,

• 20:56Speaker 02

  you know, that I was not eager to engage again and again. Also, I got very into meditation, and that's began to seem like a more relevant path for me and more, you know, certainly less uncertain as to its outcomes and, you know, targeted what I think are actually the ultimately desirable insights and states of mind. So, it's not that, I mean psychedelics were indispensable to me. I mean, in terms of just my discovering that there was a landscape of mind worth paying attention to, introspectively. And I did, you know, after, as you say, after a 25-year hiatus, I did a psilocybin trip, actually just before COVID, about a year

• 21:41Speaker 02

  and a half ago. And it was incredibly interesting and useful. I don't know how many more of those I'll do, but, you know, I do consider it a...

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Again, a kind of spin of the roulette wheel. I mean, you don't know what is going to happen. You know, you really can't control all the variables as much as you can attend to so-called set and setting as a way of, you know, positively orienting yourself. It is a, it is a type of rocket launch and there's enough uncertainty and just, you know, how, where things are all pointing that, you know, where you wind up is, is significantly due to chance.

• 22:21Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, and I, I think the arc of use and non-use you described is something a lot of us can relate to. So I remember, you know, senior year at UCLA, going to Joshua Tree and, you know, and taking mushrooms with my friends. And as a younger person trying X. And then kind of, I don't know, adulthood, kids, fear of law, whatever it was, and then nothing for 20 or 30 years, other than THC. And now I'm considering it again. And the reason I'm considering it is what you described is the, the risk, right? The, on a risk-adjusted basis, it feels like a better idea again, because I'm under the impression, or there's lower risk, that because of regulatory intervention, because the science is better, that there's

• 23:04Scott Galloway?

  less risk, there's less, there's less opportunity or a lower likelihood, you're going to have a bad trip. Is that, is that not true in something I'm just talking myself into so I can try this self, this again? Is that, or with, did that play into your decision to try it again?

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you can definitely mitigate risk in a few key ways. I mean, you, one, you can do it with a trained guide, right? Increasingly, this is still illegal in, in many places or in most places in the States, but increasingly, you can find someone who's, you know, trained at this and has a ton of experience, who will sit with you and really not do anything unless you need some, you know, some intervention, right? And this could be, you know, you could even medicalize this to some degree, somebody could be, could have the relevant dose of Ativan or whatever it would be to bring you down if you were really having a, a bad time. So you can, you can definitely mitigate the, the risk of having.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  A bad experience that's difficult to integrate. I mean, the, the, the, how we, how we conceptualize good and bad trips is relevant here because it's not that every unpleasant experience in a session of, of, um, let's say psilocybin or LSD is actually bad ultimately, right? I mean, there's a lot of growth and insight that can occur and a lot of, you know, breakthroughs in one's own compassion for oneself and others that can occur when you have a, you know, a period of significant suffering in, in one of these spaces.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  And so I think being in good company is, is a relevant variable there. And you're also, you're very likely just at a very different point in your life, right? And so it's, it's interesting to, and that was one of the reasons that motivated me. I mean, I, I realized that 25 years is a very long time not to have checked in to this continuum of experience and I would be doing it from a very different place. I mean, a lot of the uncertainty that I was dealing with when I was having those so-called bad trips is not something I'm dealing with now, you know, just in terms of my, you know, who I am in the world and how I think about the, the course of my life.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  And so it seemed, it seemed useful to do, but again, I, I do view it as the kind of thing that you don't need to do all that much, right? If you have, especially if you're, you're taking a, a large dose of any of these compounds. We, we should differentiate microdosing from, you know, macrodosing or even, you know, kind of ordinary macrodosing from, you know, a very significant dose of, of any of these things. And, um, because if you take a large enough dose, it's not, you know, of psilocybin, in my case, it's not about you working through personal issues. I mean, there's no reference point to your life at a, at a certain dosage, right?

• 26:13Speaker 02

  You forget, you forget the Scott Galloway story entirely and.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  You know, as you, as you kind of return and, and you begin to reclaim the pieces of your identity and your autobiographical memory, then there's the, then there's some kind of integration opportunity, but it's really, it's working on a level of not so much consciously working through your personal problems, but it's, it's, it's really just rebooting the hard drive on some level. And, you know, I, I think, I have no doubt that that can have a very therapeutic effect for many people. But again, there's a, there's always a possibility that you'll, you'll have a very intense unpleasant experience and it will seem like a net negative. Although again, I think the down, the downside risk

• 27:03Speaker 02

  of that, it can be significantly mitigated by having someone who can help you reframe that experience.

• 27:10Scott Galloway?

  Was your experience with psilocybin this most recent time, was it more of a, what was the motivation and the outcome? And specifically, was it more an intellectual journey where you wanted to explore places and come out more informed in terms of your own domain expertise around being a neuroscientist, exploring different ideas or concepts? Or was it more around self-discovery, trying to find things, you know, be more self-aware, more self-actualized? Was it more of a professional intellectual endeavor or something around greater self-discovery? And what, what actually happened? What would be, give us the Siskel

• 27:54Scott Galloway?

  and Ebert review of your trip.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  Right, right. Well, on the latter point, there's, I, I did this soon after the trip. There's like a 20-minute YouTube piece of audio. If you just, if anyone Googles or searches in YouTube, Sam Harris mushroom trip, they'll get the 20-minute version.

• 28:12Scott Galloway?

  As we all do.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:14Scott Galloway?

  I think that was the second most Googled, uh, Google term. Anyways, go ahead.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  So, um. But it really, but my intention was was evenly split between both of those motives. I mean, it was, you know, intellectually, I felt a responsibility to just check back in there and and do, in this case, do something that was fundamentally new. I had never taken a significant dose of mushrooms. I'd done mushrooms before, but I'd never taken a five gram dose and done that in darkness, you know, blindfolded, which is the way that, you know, many people have have recommended this. Actually, Terrence McKenna, in particular, I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he was somebody who was very influential

• 28:58Speaker 02

  in, you know, the psychedelic world. He sort of inherited the mantle from Timothy Leary in being a booster for the psychedelic experience. But he was also very clear in issuing a kind of ultimatum to people. It's like, unless you have done five grams of mushrooms in darkness, you know, you really haven't done them and you don't know what I'm talking about. And that's he would bang on for years about that. And also DMT, which I which I've never done, but that's a different compound, which that's a very, very short acting. But I was aware, I was I was aware that I had never taken mushrooms this way or and that dosage.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  And so I was increasingly uncomfortable in reasoning reasoning by analogy to all the the LSD trips I had done in my twenties, which I had done at, you know, a pretty significant dosage. And but, you know, as you increase the dose, you begin to notice how different these compounds are and the different aspects of mind they they disclose. And so there really is, at lower doses, they seem pretty close and and they begin to diverge. So.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  I was just, you know, both for intellectual reasons in talking about these things and talking about the nature of mind and talking about the relationship between meditation and psychedelics. Publicly, I felt a responsibility to have a little more experience and a more recent experience. And just personally, I just was interested to see if there was anything for me to learn there and if there was any lasting effect. Again, my experience with meditation contextualizes it in a somewhat unusual way. I mean, the experience I had most recently on psilocybin, there's no question it would have been the most important experience or

• 30:58Speaker 02

  among the, you know, top three experiences of my life, had I not already had lots of other psychedelic experiences and spent, you know, several decades integrating those through the practice of meditation, right? So if I was someone just who was truly naive and didn't know that there was a path toward changing your mind in any clear way, if I assumed, as many people do, that mental growth more or less stops in your twenties. You go to college, you learn what you have to learn there, maybe you go to graduate school, and then you're kind of thrown out into the world and left to seek happiness in all the usual ways. And there's really not any kind of curriculum given to you.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  I mean, just hopefully you'll read good books and you'll have good friendships and you'll have a family. But you're really left to the happenstance of your own, you know, well-being set point and whether you can avoid screwing things up, right? It's just like luck and opportunity and, you know, try to stay healthy and fit and don't get addicted to something that's going to degrade your health. And if you're in that place, then a significant psychedelic experience can reveal to you that

• 32:17Speaker 02

  There are ways of being and aspects of mind that your ordinary waking consciousness has given you absolutely no clue about, and that you might want to do something with that new knowledge. And again, doing something is not necessarily a matter of taking psychedelics again and again, but it can be a matter of radically reprioritizing what you do with your attention moment to moment. And that's, that can be a pretty big deal.

• 32:48Scott Galloway?

  I'm curious, were you, so thinking about just the relationship between microdosing and work, what role, if any, does microdosing and work play?

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Well, microdosing is a very different thing than, than taking a psychedelic dose of any of these compounds. So people are microdosing LSD and psilocybin for the most part. I don't think anyone microdoses MDMA, and that almost certainly wouldn't be healthy. But physiologically, psilocybin and LSD are very benign. I mean, they're more benign than anything else we take, and they're certainly more benign than Tylenol, or Advil, or aspirin. So the only risk associated with these compounds at higher doses are the kinds of experiences people can have, right? And the, and the disorientation. I mean, if you're, if you're gonna take a high dose of any of these compounds and wander in traffic, well, then they're

• 33:41Speaker 02

  very dangerous, because, you know, the traffic is dangerous. But in terms of a physiologically dangerous dose, that, that basically doesn't exist with, with LSD and psilocybin. And so when you're microdosing these things, you're taking a tiny fraction of already a physiologically totally benign compound, but you're having a, well, if it's truly a microdose, you're having a, essentially a subliminal dose of this, right? It's not, you know, or it's just barely liminal, right? It's like, as detectable as a cup of coffee, say, but it's not, it's not something, you know, that really is, is, is changing your perception

• 34:24Speaker 02

  of the world in any discernible way. But I think they both, you know, both psilocybin and LSD have a

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Pretty clear antidepressant effect at a subliminal dose. And I think the research, not all the research is in on this, but and most of the research on microdosing is, is not happening in a formal scientific context. You just have a lot of people doing this, you know, people by the millions doing this and sort of reporting back on their experiences. It's certainly interesting to do and it can be, again, I think it would probably have, you know, it's good to try as an antidepressant for people and see if it works. I think it, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend it for anxiety. I mean, it has, insofar as it has a conscious effect, it is sort of

• 35:19Speaker 02

  in the caffeine-like stimulant direction where it's, you know, you, you know, if you have, if anxiety is your issue, then it may seem like it's adding to that.

• 35:30Scott Galloway?

  So as usual, I find you're being very measured and trying to be, you know, you're not, you swim in the nuance and grays of the world. And I think that's one of the reasons that people are drawn to your content. I have three or four close friends who've done these guided psilocybin, I don't know what you call them, journeys. And they all fit the same profile, all very successful. I don't think any of them, as far as I know, suffer from any real significant mental illness. And post this trip, whatever you want to call it, they each feel an imperative, an obligation to try and get other people to

• 36:09Scott Galloway?

  do it. It was so profound for them. And not like a, oh, this was the best pot I've ever smoked and I couldn't stop laughing, or not like that. Like, the one guy, one guy described it, and I thought that was interesting. Your world is the ocean, and you can kind of see 10 feet down, 20 feet down. This gives you the opportunity to drain the ocean and then walk around and really examine your life. And then have someone interpret what you saw. And all three of these individuals, who are not what I'd call promotional people latch on to things, feel this obligation to tell other people about it. Did you have a similar experience? Do you feel the same way amongst your close friends that you, do

• 36:53Scott Galloway?

  you feel an obligation to, to, to help people feel comfortable around doing this?

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Well, again, I got the evangelical phase of my psychedelic career out of the way in my twenties, right? So there are people who I recommended this to, and certainly I was candid about how positive the experience was, but, and publicly candid, again, I just jumped on YouTube and told people about it. But the evangelical impulse is totally understandable because you are talking about the most intensely insightful and gratitude-producing experience people have ever had when they have a good experience. And gratitude really was the kind of the base note of this experience for me.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  I mean, just love and gratitude was the emotional tone of almost everything that happened to me there. And, you know, it is very much like, I mean, if you told me, well, this is what we're going to, we're going to give you a drug and it's going to make you feel as much gratitude as the human brain is capable of, you know, that sounds like the experience I had, right? So having that for five hours is incredibly useful because at minimum, you know, it's possible, right? I mean, you're the person who felt that. And you come back into your

• 38:26Speaker 02

  life looking at things through that lens. And all of the petty concerns and all of the niggling things that capture your attention on a day-to-day basis, you know, what Twitter has been doing to you for the last year, two years, right? That begins to seem like just,

• 38:51Speaker 02

  as pathological as it almost surely is, in fact, right? You know, it is a misuse of attention. And on some level, you recognize that.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  You become what you pay attention to, you know, and you don't, and you don't get, you know, even more precious than time is attention, because we all know what it's like to safeguard our time and to still squander it. Right? I mean, you say you decide to spend some quality time with your kids, and yet you find that even during those hours, your, your attention is fragmented, or you're, you're uncomfortable because there's something you, you actually want to do more, but you can't admit that to yourself, or you've got some work thing that's bouncing around your brain, right? So it's, I mean, really, it's a matter of what your attention can land on and, and, and then, and fully engage with moment to moment. And, and that is the, the secret to finding well-being in this life.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  I mean, the, the ultimate secret is to find that there's something about the nature of, of consciousness itself, the nature of, you know, that which is being aware of anything that is a ground for real fulfillment and well-being, right? Like to, to sink, to be so comfortable in your own skin so that you're happy before anything happens. You're not waiting for something good to happen, right? You're not waiting for the vacation to start, right? Like if, once we get off this plane, we'll really be there and we can start having fun, you actually can find a, a place in your own mind where the kinds of states that get really pushed through you on, on a psychedelic trip are not fundamentally different from

• 40:29Speaker 02

  what's, what's available in, in each moment of, of just conscious awareness. And that, that's where, for me, psychedelics and meditation become two parts of, of the same machinery here, or two wings of the same bird, or seven, there's, there's some intrinsic connection there.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  And, because ultimately, it can't be about just having an intense experience, and even an intensely good experience that you then just remember for the rest of your life, right? So memory just isn't that good, you know? So you, you need to find a path between that place and the, every ordinary present moment that conveys the wisdom that you experience there. And otherwise, otherwise it's, it's just, you know, a new set of concepts that you can, you know, rather dimly rehearse for yourself, but it doesn't, it's, it's not, it's not deep enough to actually change your experience in each moment.

• 41:29Scott Galloway?

  When you said five hours of intense gratitude, I thought there's never been a more, I don't know, a stronger, more robust endorsement of psilocybin. And then, and then I was wrong. You beat it by saying you can undo what Twitter's done to you.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:46Scott Galloway?

  So I just made the decision. And it's so interesting. You, you, you become where your intention is. I think that's a brilliant statement, too. As I think about, my thinking has become more terse, more inclined to find ways to dunk on people, more, more seeking of affirmation of people I've never met before. And I think all of these things are somewhat shaped by, by Twitter. It's kind of frightening to just hear you articulate that. I got very interested when you said kind of the ultimate goal. And, and you said it was a level, I think, of self-awareness where you find joy and satisfaction in all the spaces in between, right? And, you know, all of it. And then you described that this, this peanut butter

• 42:31Scott Galloway?

  and chocolate of achieving that for you has been meditation and then psilocybin. Can you give us some other elements of that soup as a neuroscientist where people best practices of that, that alchemy of finding that type of self-awareness and actualization?

• 42:47Speaker 02

  Well, I really don't have a, a neuroscientific basis for this per se. I mean, no doubt there is one, but the other piece here, which I think is indispensable, is just living a more and more ethical life. I think just how you treat people and how honest you are is the other piece here that really is, is just, it can't be overlooked. It's the container that would hold any wisdom gleaned by any other method, right? I mean, if you're, if you're doing mushrooms, you know, on the weekends, but during the week, you're still lying to the people in your life and, you know, basically unkind to others. Well, then

• 43:32Speaker 02

  it's just, there's just no, there's just no way you can, you're, you're actually integrating what, what there is to learn from a psychedelic experience, right? And it is, it's very common for people to

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Discovering themselves a commitment to ethics that is fundamentally new, but it's not necessarily direct. I mean, it's worth remembering that some of the people who did the most psychedelics, I mean, you look at the Aztecs and the Inca, I mean, they were practicing human sacrifice, right? So it's possible to have a mushroom cult that also thinks it's, you know, it's a good idea to carve out people's hearts and, you know, hold them up to the, to these nonexistent gods, right? So it's, it's not enough of a, to generate a coherent and healthy worldview to merely get high on these compounds. But within the context of a sane and rational and ethical worldview,

• 44:31Speaker 02

  again, I think these experiences can be indispensable for people.

• 44:37Scott Galloway?

  Coming up after the break.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  To really live an integrated life, to have integrity, what we mean by integrity in the end is there not being a lot of daylight between who you say you are and who you seem to be in public or in any given relationship and who you really are.

• 44:57Scott Galloway?

  Stay with us.

• 45:01Scott Galloway?

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• 45:46Scott Galloway?

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• 46:53Scott Galloway?

  In ethically examined life, I think there's a lot of people, the majority of people, who would say they aspire to that and want to demonstrate it. Where do you think the trappings of a modern world create Achilles' heels around ethical behavior? Is it rationalizing unethical business behavior? Is it the way, is it not being engaged with your family? Is it not being a good partner? Where do you find are the most, where is the soft issue in a modern society around lapses, around the get in the way of being a more ethical person, which I think most people would sign up for if they felt like, that's a pretty broad mandate, be more ethical. Where are we failing typically?

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Well, I think that the longest lever that's within reach of everyone to pull is around honesty, right? I mean, just committing to never lying is a very big deal. And this is something, this is a change I made in my life around 18. Actually, it was freshman year in college. And I wrote a book about this just titled Lying. But there was a course at Stanford taught by this really brilliant professor, Ronald Howard. And it was just on the question of whether it's ever ethical to lie, right? And obviously, people came to that course, understanding that certain lies are unethical, right? You don't want

• 48:18Speaker 02

  to lie like, you don't want Lance Armstrong level lying that destroys your career and, you know, the careers of others. But Most people feel that there's a certain kind of lying that is not only totally natural and very awkward to avoid, but ethically indispensable. You're a good person when you're telling these kinds of white lies. And so if you spend a lot of time examining that, that begins to evaporate. And now, to summarize it very briefly, again, I wrote a short book on this. So if people are interested, they can find it there.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  I view lying as kind of the first stop on the continuum of violence, which can be totally ethical in the context of self-defense. So I'm not a pacifist. I acknowledge there are situations where you want to defend yourself with force. And lying is sort of the first increment of force. But it's an admission that you're now dealing with someone who you're not treating as a possible collaborator, or as a rational actor, or someone who you can appeal to or negotiate with. You're treating them as a threat. So I would reserve lying for those cases. So the Nazis come to the door, and you've got Anne Frank in the attic.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Well, okay, you can lie to the Nazis, but you can also shoot them in the face, right? If you're in a position to do that, right? So you're in extremis, right? This is a moral emergency, and lying is the first tool in the toolkit. But generally speaking, as you make this change in your life, you realize you don't want to lie to people, really, ever, right? You don't want two sets of ethical books that you keep, one for business and one for your friends, right? In business, you actually want to be as honest as you are with your friends. And this is an immensely clarifying and simplifying change to make in your life. Because if you know you're never going to lie...

• 50:28Speaker 02

  You realize you're free to engage in any conversation, in any situation, and you never have to keep track of anything. You never have to remember what you told Person A, because you're not going to say something different to Person B. And you don't have to worry. There are other aspects of this. There's kind of a larger concept of ethical speech. So you throw in gossip here, like what you say behind someone's back. If there's a big enough distance between what you say behind someone's back and what you are comfortable saying to their face, well, then you're leaving yourself open to all kinds of harrowing embarrassments

• 51:09Speaker 02

  when those two sets of utterances come fully into contact, when someone overhears what you're saying behind their back, or when you send an email about someone to the person by accident. I mean, those are, that kind of thing happens, and it destroys relationships or just destroys reputations or both. But to really live an integrated life, to have integrity, what we mean by integrity in the end, is there not being a lot of daylight between who you say you are and who you seem to be in public or in any given relationship, and who you really are in private, in the privacy of your own mind,

• 51:52Speaker 02

  in what you're thinking about people or what you're saying about them behind their back. And so I find that what people anticipate is it being really difficult to be honest all the time. And I haven't found that. The difficulty is in finding... To be clear, I'm not advocating that you just simply blurt out everything you're thinking in every context. It's not like you have Tourette's Syndrome and you just can't help but say the unseemly thing when it first occurs to you. No, there is a scope for being civil and just being kind to people. But what you discover...

• 52:37Speaker 02

  When you're committed to being honest virtually all of the time is that it's like a mirror that is held up to your own mind. You discover who you are because you don't have recourse to the easy lie to get you out of a situation. When someone asks you if you want to have dinner and the answer is actually no, and you're not going to give yourself the out of just saying, oh, sorry, I'm too busy this week, right? And just kicking the obligation down the road. You actually have to be straighter with people. And that, yes, there's room for finesse and there's room for humor there and there's room for just being a compassionate person, but it becomes immensely clarifying. And

• 53:21Speaker 02

  when people know this about you, then they don't ask for your critical feedback unless they really want it, right? I mean, the person who just wrote his first novel, who comes to you and asks you to read it, you begin to train the people in your life to expect that you're actually going to be honest, right? And then they value your feedback in a way that they know you're not lying to them. They know you're not being merely polite when you actually like something. When you say, oh, this is fantastic, the compliment really lands because six months ago, you told them you really didn't like

• 54:02Speaker 02

  something, right? And you were the only friend who did that, right? So it's very clarifying of relationships and perhaps not every relationship survives, but the good ones do.

• 54:14Scott Galloway?

  I want to return back to what we were talking about before in terms of finding that self-awareness or self-actualization. And I like the three legs of the stool you outlined are decent places to start. Meditation, psilocybin, and some just being more kind. You've been writing a lot, or some of the content I've seen from you recently, I would describe as how messed up as a species are ability to calibrate empathy. And that is individual notions of tragedy inspire a lot more empathy than much more damaging large guy. A lot of the stuff I've been reading of yours lately reminds me of that statement, I think it was Stalin that said, one death is a tragedy, millions are a statistic. Can you speak more to that?

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, this relates to some research that was done a while back by Paul Slovic, where he was testing empathy and altruism, and most concretely, a willingness to donate to a cause, right? So just like affect what is in fact, you know, behaviorally active in the altruism mode. And he found that if you give people, if a kind of a single protagonist, if you show them the picture of one little girl who needs your help, and the story is just a story about her and her suffering, you get the maximal response, right?

• 55:43Speaker 02

  And so, and it's, you know, that's not surprising. I mean, when you think of just what we were evolved to care about, the direct relationship is the thing that really is, has been environmentally relevant to us for tens of thousands of years. And the abstract notion of millions of people suffering one thing or another is a very new development, right? So this isn't a terrible surprise, but it's obviously a moral failing. So you take the one little girl who you maximally respond to, and you simply add another child to the story. You add her little brother, who's just as cute and suffering in precisely the same

• 56:28Speaker 02

  way, and you find that people give less under those conditions. And if you add 10 more kids, they give less. And then if you add some background statistics that talk about the hundreds of thousands of kids who need your help, then the altruism just goes through to the floor, right? So that is, you know, by some lights understandable, it is a bug, not a feature, right? This is what we've diagnosed in ourselves is an inability, a really a systematic inability to have an appropriate emotional response to the worst sorts of harms that occur in our world, right?

• 57:12Speaker 02

  We now, we know that we are We're not as, we're not most disturbed by the most disturbing things that ever happen, and we're not most gratified by the most beneficial things that happen, right? We're just, we, we have a different set of intuitions with it. We get our thrills and our, our feelings of sorrow and despair and compassionate moral engagement cued by different stimuli, right? It's not like, it's not just the, the, the ground truth of the worst harms or the, or the greatest benefits or the worst risks. I mean, so there's, there's a, risk is also relevant here.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  You know, we have risk preferences that are, that are frankly crazy when you look at the things that, that actually do the most harms or, or present the greatest risk of harm. So we, you know, we, it's very common to be terrified of flying, say, right? But, you know, we found it very difficult to convince people that we even had a pandemic on our hands, you know, in the last, you know, at least we found it very difficult to convince half of our society that we had a pandemic on our hands that was worth taking seriously. And we find it very difficult to, to care about the risk of, of the ongoing risk of nuclear war, right? Whereas it's almost certainly the greatest risk of civilization failure we currently

• 58:40Speaker 02

  face and followed by things like, you know, bioterrorism and just natural pandemic. We can't, we don't, we find it very difficult to marshal resources along, you know, you know, for, for abstract and colossal risks like that and across longer time horizons. You know, we're, we're pegged to a, you know, a four-year presidential cycle here in, in the US and we can't, it seems impossible to hatch a 40-year plan to do anything of substance.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  So I mean, to come back to your, your original question here, what should people become sensitive to, to increase their, their ethical wisdom and improve their lives? One thing is the power of incentives, right? I mean, just, just notice all the mad work that bad incentives do in the world and become more incentive, become more sensitive to how you are incentivized to pay attention, to spend your money, to, to marshal your resources, to care about one thing or the other and, and become more honest about, you know, mixed motives and ulterior motives and what you actually care about.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  I mean, just notice what you, notice what captures your attention and what that says about what you actually want as a, as opposed to what you profess to want, you know? I mean, just being a good father is a, is a, is a major value that you and I share. But then ask yourself just how, what is the amount of time and the quality of time you spend with your kids say about your actual priorities, right? I mean, I can look at you just, just how effortlessly I will go down a rabbit hole for an hour based on something I saw on social media and compare that kind of friction-free

• 1:00:38Speaker 02

  engagement with, you know, my, my own deranged appetites, right? Or my, my own concern about my reputation or whatever it is with my decision to spend time with one of my daughters and what that's like when she wants to, you know, play with, you know, something that, that I find it very difficult to care about, right? So how you navigate that, I mean, first, you just have to be honest about what is happening there and the ways in which, and a, a clear tally of, of how you spend your time can serve as a kind of mirror for yourself.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  And then you can make changes on that basis and then you can, then you can decide, like, I'm never going to get this day back again and I'm never going to get this, this stage in my daughter's life back again.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  So what do I want to do with that? And how much time do I want to spend on Twitter in light of that? And then you then you actually can find ways to change what you care about. Ultimately, becoming a better person has to be a matter of changing what you care about and changing what motivates you. And one of the things that, as you point out, that has been so toxic about social media and Twitter in particular, is that it has, in some ways, it's revealed what we effortlessly care about, but it has also changed us. It has made us care about other things, right? And to become pettier and more judgmental and more defensive in certain certain modes.

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  And we certainly treat people on Twitter in ways that we would be hard pressed to treat them in real life, right? Or we would be much slower to get there, you know? And it's, and that's one of the design flaws of the medium, right? It's maximizing for our worst traits. But again, incentives are incentives are almost everything, right? I mean, it's like, if you really want to change, it becomes very useful to figure out how to put in place a system of incentives that incentivizes you differently. Like, one thing I did, this comes back to altruism. One thing I realized as I was building my businesses, both the podcast and the app,

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  is that there's something something toxic about just being in business, right? Just the acquisitiveness, the caring about revenue, right? I found that psychologically, you know, maybe toxic is too strong a word, but it's certainly not ennobling to be caring about money, right? And but then I started to view, then I started to view money as a resource to help other people, which of course it is. And so I, you know, just consciously made a commitment to give a minimum of 10% of my earnings and 10% of the profits of my company to the most effective charities.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  You know, it doesn't change everything, but it changes one thing in that now I feel like when I see the numbers go up, part of my motive is to be able to is to be more helpful in a very direct way, not when I die, but every day to causes I care about. And the causes I care about are, again, analyzed not narrowly for the good feels of, you know, there was a cute puppy in the in the window, or one little girl whose story I found most captivating, but a more rational analysis of just what is going to mitigate the worst harms, or the worst risks, or the worst current suffering out there, whether or not I find

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  it an especially sexy cause, right? So it's, I think you can use a rational analysis of any of these things to get behind and under yourself and constrain and and create a system that protects you from your moment to moment failures of ethical intuition, because you know your intuitions are going to be bad. You know, you're going to, you know, it's like, it's almost like, you know, going on a diet, right? You know, you're going to want dessert after dinner tonight, right? You know, it's only, it's only noon, you're not at that moment, but you know, you know, if there's chocolate cake in the house, you're going to eat it. So the rational actor in you can just decide to not have the cake in the fridge, right?

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  And so that who you'll be when you open the fridge at eight o'clock at night will be deprived of the opportunity to fail, right? And so a lot of life, a lot of change in life can be can be rationally instantiated, even when we're, even when we know we're not, you know, reasoning ourselves through to the goal in each moment.

• 1:05:36Scott Galloway?

  Sam Harris is a neuroscientist, philosopher, and author of five New York Times bestsellers. He's also the podcast host of Making Sense and the creator of the Waking Up Meditation app. He joins us from his home in Los Angeles. Sam, stay safe.

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks so much, Scott.

• 1:05:56Scott Galloway?

  Our producers are Caroline Chagrin and Drew Burrows. Claire Miller is our assistant producer. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. Thank you for listening to The Prop G Show from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We'll catch you next week on Monday and Thursday, still not used to that.

• 1:06:17Scott Galloway?

  I'd be scared to have Sam as my father. I think he'd be a great uncle, though. I think it would be, it'd be kind of hard to live with that much IQ, but he'd be a great uncle, kind of telling you, you know, breaking it down for you every few months, like, this is what you need to do to be more self-actualized. I would like that.

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