Former “Diplomat” on Iraq, Gaza, and Espionage | Chris Merritt

Former British Foreign Office official Chris Merritt joins us to discuss his time as a diplomat in Iraq, Gaza, and Jerusalem, including Basra’s deteriorating security situation, Iranian-backed militias, Hamas, the Fatah split, and the realities of doing diplomacy in war zones. He also breaks down how those experiences shaped his later work as a trauma psychologist and spy novelist, including Committed and his new book Octagon. Grab Chris' new book here:⬇️ https://amzn.eu/d/0haKB5uW Chris' other books:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B07B9ZHBF5/allbooks?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=aufs_ap_ahdr_dsk_ab&pd_rd_w=O64uG&content-id=amzn1.sym.7e190e19-9f6f-4df8-807a-5a7608594741&pf_rd_p=7e190e19-9f6f-4df8-807a-5a7608594741&pf_rd_r=144-9783160-8516900&pd_rd_wg=RnoiZ&pd_rd_r=09cfe4a7-daad-4ab8-9dc1-dc378f894a38&ccs_id=6c35d69b-90e0-4701-8fc4-178090b51c0e Today's Sponsors: GhostBed ⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 10% off! Van Man ⬇️ Go to http://vanman.shop/teamhouse and use code TEAMHOUSE for 15% off your first order. Quince⬇️ go to: https://www.quince.com/house for free shipping and 365 day returns For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ PRE ORDER JACK'S NEW BOOK "THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN" ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/803651/the-most-dangerous-man-by-jack-murphy/paperback/ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured __________________________________ Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 — Start / Chris Merritt joins The Team House 01:02 — Growing up near London, languages, and the road toward foreign service 05:03 — Learning Arabic and getting drawn into Middle East geopolitics 06:08 — Applying to the British Foreign Office and surviving the assessment process 10:10 — First Foreign Office job and wanting something more active 12:18 — Volunteering for Iraq and deploying to Basra in 2005 17:04 — Britain’s role in southern Iraq and the worsening IED threat 19:03 — Diplomatic work in a war zone: gathering ground truth in Basra 23:47 — Iranian-backed militias, helicopter shootdowns, and the badger conspiracy 27:41 — “Aggressive diplomacy” and working alongside the British military 30:05 — Rockets, mortars, and watching Basra deteriorate 32:53 — SAS contacts, close protection, and hostile-environment training 39:15 — Jerusalem, Gaza, and working the Palestinian side of the conflict 43:53 — Hamas wins elections, the Fatah split, and Gaza’s power struggle 47:26 — Trying to understand Hamas without being allowed to talk to them 50:07 — The Alan Johnston kidnapping and negotiating through Gaza intermediaries 51:40 — Why the Israel-Palestine conflict felt increasingly impossible to solve 57:17 — Israel’s rightward shift, Gaza after October 7, and the future of the region 01:01:37 — Returning to London, Gulf policy, and shifting toward psychology 01:05:25 — Leaving the Foreign Office and retraining as a trauma psychologist 01:17:15 — From diplomacy and trauma work to writing novels 01:22:29 — Octagon: MI6, SAS, terror plots, and writing authentic spy fiction 01:24:21 — Why spy thrillers are having a resurgence 01:27:53 — Committed, Octagon, where to find Chris, and closing thoughts Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:01Jack Murphy?

  Hey, guys. I want to tell you tonight about my new novel, The Most Dangerous Man, coming out June 9. I think, like a lot of you, I read in high school the short story, The Greatest Game, which is almost a century old at this point. But it's the classic premise of man hunting man for sport. This book is based off of that a little bit, but also on stories that I have heard over the years about safari guides that have actually taken hunting parties, wealthy people hunting poachers in West Africa.

• 1:36Jack Murphy?

  That idea kind of cooked off in my mind when I was asked to write a novel and get back into writing fiction again. And this book is about a ranger with the Ranger Reconnaissance Company who's on a mission in West Africa and gets kidnapped and hunted for sport by a group of wealthy tech billionaires. I had a lot of fun writing this book, and I think you'll have a good time reading it. It's a quick, fast and furious, fast-paced action novel. And I hope you all check it out. It's up there. You can find it wherever books are sold, the hard copy, the hardback, the soft cover, and also the Kindle ebook edition. And we'll have some links down in the description for you. The book comes out June 9.

• 2:20Jack Murphy?

  And I hope you all let me know what you think of it.

• 2:34Jack Murphy?

  Hey everyone, this is the Team House. My name is Jack Murphy and we are here with tonight's guest, or this morning's guest, depending on when this is recorded, Chris Merritt. Chris Merritt is a former member of the British Foreign Office who served in places like Iraq and Gaza, and he is also the author of some spy novels. One of them is Committed, which that's the title of the book, Committed. It's out in the United States and the UK right now. And he has a new book coming out just in a couple of weeks called Octagon that'll be out in the UK and hopefully we'll see it hit American shores sometime thereafter. But you'll be able to find it on the UK Amazon website regardless of where

• 3:19Jack Murphy?

  you're at. So Chris, thank you. Welcome to the show, man.

• 3:22Speaker 05

  Thanks very much, Jack. Pleasure to be here.

• 3:26Jack Murphy?

  So I'd like to start with, at the beginning, with our guests. Tell us a little bit about your upbringing and how it kind of took you towards governmental service.

• 3:36Speaker 05

  Sure, yeah. Well, I grew up in a kind of small town, not too far from London, and a fairly ordinary upbringing, I would say. Not particularly wealthy, not particularly poor. But one significant thing was that my parents were both languages teachers. So there were always foreign languages being spoken in the house. And especially when we went on holiday to places like France and Spain, and I would see my parents talking to people in their own language and just kind of seeing the effect that had and their ability to kind of make friends and make things happen abroad. It was pretty inspiring.

• 4:20Speaker 05

  So I was always interested in, I would say, travel, languages. And then it kind of took off really when I was at university and I was studying geography. So I hadn't gone down the languages route that way, but I was very interested in kind of anything to do with how people were living in foreign countries, different cultures. And of course, one of the biggest global events that happened while I was at university was nine eleven. And so that got me very kind of interested

• 5:00Speaker 05

  in, I would say, in international security issues. I studied a little bit, some of those issues around globalization, migration, down into kind of quite, quite specific stuff like kind of transnational terrorist networks, terrorist financing, things like that. I was able to actually study that at university. And from there, it kind of took me, someone suggested to me that maybe I should apply to the Foreign Office, because then I could actually work on some of these, some of these issues. And I had a very formative experience whilst at university when I, I was doing some, some research in Ghana, in West Africa.

• 5:43Speaker 05

  And I just kind of pitched up there, not knowing anybody, just with, with, with an idea of that I was going to study something to do with kind of the way that people, the way that people were using or exploiting, as the case may be, rainforest resources. And I found myself literally in the middle of the rainforest in Ghana with, with no support network. And all of a sudden, I was just kind of in at the deep end, and needed to just kind of find my way through, make some contacts, learn about how this place worked, this very, very different culture. And I think that kind of stood me in, in quite good stead for then doing that kind of thing for a living, but, but also just

• 6:25Speaker 05

  really inspired me to, to want to work overseas, work with different cultures, learn other languages, and, and just kind of really go deep into the politics of, the geopolitics, you know, of how places worked, and how they fitted in, in the international context. And then, and then with that nine eleven influence, it kind of particularly went down a, a security route.

• 6:52Jack Murphy?

  And which languages did you learn when you were in college and high school, I suppose?

• 7:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, I'd always been speaking some French at home in particular. My mom was really a French specialist, my dad more of a Spanish specialist. And French was the one that I kind of, I kind of went for. And so that was always kind of, kind of there. And once I joined the Foreign Office, I was able to actually take more classes and really build that up. And again, following that interest in the kind of geopolitics of the Middle East, I was able to use the Languages Centre at university to start with, make a start with Arabic. And I just remember actually this very kind of, very impactful moment where it was actually

• 7:44Speaker 05

  an American diplomat who was appearing on Al Jazeera and he was just speaking, you know, it's just a middle-aged, white, American diplomat and he was just speaking fluent Arabic. And I remember just being blown away by it because it's such a different language to the kind of European languages that we would hear, you know, just kind of going on holiday places like France, Spain, Italy, wherever. And I just thought, especially with everything that was going on in the world at the time, I thought this is a language that's gonna, that really inspires me and I'm gonna, I'm gonna get stuck into this and try and learn it. So I did that, did it for, ended up doing it for about eight years or so in the end.

• 8:25Jack Murphy?

  I'm sure we'll circle back around on that, but when you applied to the Foreign Office after you graduate from university, I mean, what's sort of the admission process like?

• 8:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, so you, let me see if I can, if I can remember now. So it was, you, you fill out the application form, you, you send that in and, and then, and then if that's, if they kind of like the look of, of you, you'll, you'll, you'll come in, you know, for, for an interview.

• 9:00Speaker 05

  And if if you get through that stage, there's something called an assessment centre where they basically chuck you into a variety of situations that are designed to replicate the kind of work you do. So you might have, you might just get given a stack of stack of paper, like literally a foot high, all about a particular country, and you've got one hour to produce a a single sheet of paper briefing for somebody on that. So you just have to smash through that information and distill it down into, you know, a page. You've got role play exercises where you have to, everyone's got a different task, you've got a, or everyone has a different role, excuse me,

• 9:41Speaker 05

  you're representing a different part of government, and you have incompatible aims. So the the idea is to is to negotiate, advocate for your position, give a little ground, try and get a little from from others. And yeah, it's kind of interesting that that I think in that situation, they don't, they don't want someone who comes in and kind of dominates the the situation. They want someone who can kind of see different sides to it. You've got, you you've got one to one role plays where you're kind of, you're engaging in in sort of like diplomatic situations. And one of those I remember is, you know, the other person is is clearly very pissed off about something and you

• 10:25Speaker 05

  have to just kind of placate them and and mollify them in a in a professional way without giving away too much of your own, you know, your own position and your own interests. And that's quite stressful because you're not expecting it. Yeah, a whole bunch of things like that, aptitude tests. It's it's a couple of days long and and you're exhausted by by the end of it. So I came through that and then you have a final, what they call a final board, and that is just a sort of open ended session where, you know, three people will sit there in a line and just fire questions at you. And I remember being asked about.

• 11:05Speaker 05

  You know, my position on the Iraq war, my understanding of other kind of geopolitical situations, ethical issues, all kinds of stuff, they just want to probe and probe and put you under pressure, see what your reaction is to being under pressure, but just kind of ultimately satisfy themselves that you're the sort of person who could do this job and be put in front of, you know, officials and other people overseas to represent the UK without kind of getting into an enormous argument with someone or saying something incredibly offensive.

• 11:42Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they're looking for people who can influence.

• 11:47Speaker 05

  I think that's a part of it. And so for me, actually, interestingly, this was kind of, even though I didn't necessarily appreciate it at the time, this was the beginning of my influence and my interest in psychology. And I'd started out, I'd come into that world very much from the perspective of geopolitics, security issues, kind of big, big sort of global scale, international stuff that was interesting to me. But I ended up increasingly focusing down on, if you like, the individual psychology, the way that individuals kind of think, feel, behave. And that took me in another direction. It kind of evolved out

• 12:30Speaker 05

  of that work for the Foreign Office. So we can talk about that more later perhaps.

• 12:35Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, sure. And so when you get there, after you finish, I mean, where do you get assigned?

• 12:41Speaker 05

  So most of the time, very occasionally, people will get posted straight off a training course overseas. But most people will go into a desk job in head office. And that's really so you can kind of learn the ropes about how the organization works. And just get a feel for how how policy functions, how policies, foreign policies is formulated, how you how you gather information about the situation overseas, analyze it, process it, and use it to try and try and make decisions and present it to politicians who have to make

• 13:22Speaker 05

  the big decisions about the way that the way that your country engages overseas. So I was doing that, but what I actually found, funnily enough, was it was very kind of, it was kind of, it was kind of dry. I mean, I was working on sort of European Union security issues and it, there was some interesting elements to it, but it was a lot of emails, it was a lot of sitting at desks, there wasn't a lot of getting out there and doing stuff. And part of me actually thought, at one point I was considering, do I, you know, I'm I'm twenty three, do I need to just kind of actually take some time out, go and do something that is more

• 14:07Speaker 05

  kind of active and action based, as it were, maybe maybe join the military, maybe join one of the armed forces, do a few years there, because there there are a number of people who come into the foreign service, having been in usually the usually the military, sometimes other branches of the armed forces. And they've kind of, in a way, they've sort of got that out of their systems and now then they're ready to do the slightly more kind of, let's say, like formal or analytical type of type of work. They've been out there in the field. And I kind of felt like I wanted to do that. I was seriously thinking about it, but then, one day after I'd been in for about eighteen, I'd been in the service for about eighteen months, I then got a call from our HR department,

• 14:53Speaker 05

  basically saying there was there was a job in Iraq. I mean, they were trying, they were trying to sell it to me, but the bottom line was no one else wanted to do it. There was no one else available to do it. They'd pretty much gone through everyone who who was willing to go to Iraq had been there and done a, because the tours there are are typically a year, sometimes six months, but typically a year, and it's quite, it takes quite a toll on people, especially the the older diplomats who, you know, would have.

• 15:23Speaker 05

  Had families and it's more disruptive for them. Basically it came to me and I was by this point I was 24 and I just kind of ju- just jumped jumped at the chance basically. So it was a posting in Basra and that kind of took me on to the next stage.

• 15:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, what year was that that you got to Basra?

• 15:45Speaker 05

  Two thousand and five.

• 15:46Jack Murphy?

  Okay, okay. Things are heating up.

• 15:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, so it's a... Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So basically you had the invasion in two thousand and three. Saddam had been deposed. There was this kind of honeymoon period, especially in the south where Saddam had not been popular, predominantly Shia Muslim parts of southern Iraq. And initially, the British in the south were, you know, met with warmth and approval from a lot of Iraqis for getting rid of Saddam. But by two thousand and five, the Iraqi, a lot of Iraqis were thinking, why are you still here? Are you trying to steal our oil? What's going on? Are you trying to control our government? You know, and insurgency started,

• 16:32Speaker 05

  supported by Iran, which was, you know, as I'm sure you, as I'm sure you were, got pretty violent pretty quickly.

• 16:41Jack Murphy?

  You know, not to reenact your board when you applied for the Foreign Office, but I'm going to shoot this one to you. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the British presence in Basra? If I recall correctly, like all the way back to the maybe 1800s, the Brits had a railroad from Basra all the way up into Turkey, I believe.

• 17:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, Iraq had had a lot of, you know, historical, well, there was a big historical British presence in Iraq. And yeah, it's sort of, it kind of really went up a notch. I mean, you had the kind of, you know, British, British support to

• 17:26Speaker 05

  a lot of indigenous groups in that area during the First World War, when you had, you know, Lawrence of Arabia. And that was kind of supporting, in a sense, kind of supporting Arab autonomy in that region. But when those places sort of broke away from the Islamic empire and broke away from Turkish control, the Brits and the French and others essentially just installed their favorite people who had cooperated with them, you know, over the previous decades. And that was the case in Iraq. And then, of course, later, so at that time, that was

• 18:08Speaker 05

  pretty kind of pro-British, but then was ultimately that monarch was overthrown by the Ba'ath Party and then eventually Saddam Hussein took control of the Ba'ath Party. And with it, you know, it was a kind of, with the context of the sort of Ba'ath Party being Arab socialism and therefore more allied to USSR at the time, Soviet Union, kind of became the enemies of the UK. And, you know, the British were viewed with extreme

• 18:45Speaker 05

  suspicion there, similarly to in Iran, where we'd been great supporters of the Shah, who'd been overthrown in the Islamic Revolution. And the British were sort of always there in the background, kind of interfering, pulling strings, the kind of malevolent pocketmasters. So there was, there's a good degree of hostility, that's fair to say, and historical complexity.

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• 24:27Jack Murphy?

  And so by the time you get there in 2005, I mean, this was an American-led war. But there's this British presence in Basra even then and through the 2000s.

• 24:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So the British, the British were in charge of what was known as MND Southeast. That was the four southern provinces of Iraq. Basra being the biggest, but also Methana, Deccan, and Maesan province that borders Iran on the east, the east side of southern Iraq. And there was a bit of support there from some other countries too. The Italians were there. The Japanese were there in a limited capacity, the Australians. And the American presence was, was obviously focused more around the kind of center and the west of Iraq.

• 25:19Speaker 05

  And, you know, the, the, things were kind of much smaller scale in, in, in the south of Iraq. I remember going up to Baghdad and visiting the green zone there and the size of it was mind-boggling. The amount of activity there and the number of people was huge. Whereas down in the south, it was, there wasn't really a green zone. There was basically just a base. There were several bases that the British were, were running in, in Basra, in the province of Basra, in the city and surrounding area. But the main one, the one where I was based was Basra Palace.

• 25:59Speaker 05

  Which was in the city of Basra. So, you know, we were right there in the action. And when I got there, we were still travelling by road in kind of, you know, convoys of armoured vehicles with with close protection and countermeasures and so on. But pretty soon that the IED threat got to be so big from roadside bombs that we're getting increasingly sophisticated with Iranian support to the local militias that we ended up just only moving by air or occasionally by boat on the river. So the situation deteriorated pretty quickly.

• 26:38Jack Murphy?

  And what was your job when you got there?

• 26:43Speaker 05

  Well, I was at a junior diplomatic role. So really, if you're a diplomat, you've got to do two things. You've got to kind of, in a sense, gather information about what's going on in the place where you are. That again goes back to the team in London, who are responsible for that region of the world, UK policy in that region of the world. And the information you send to them from the ground informs the policy. So you're kind of an on the ground expert. The other thing you do is you represent the UK at any kind of event that requires an official presence. So, you know, if you're in a nice kind of European capital or somewhere where there isn't a war going on, you're going up to diplomatic events and other sort of

• 27:28Speaker 05

  official duties like that. You may be giving speeches at particular organizations that have a connection to your country, whatever it might be. In Iraq, there's nothing like that, basically. So we just tried to get out as much as we can, you know, as much as we could to understand what was going on on the ground. And really, there were two main ways of doing that. I think, you know, we used to sort of speculate in a kind of very gallows, humour, dark sort of way, how long you might survive if you just walked or drove out of the front gate of the palace compound. And the estimates always were never

• 28:09Speaker 05

  more than a few minutes, because the local militias would have people watching the gates. They would send their young recruits out with a pistol and a scooter and basically the orders were just attack at anyone, just fire at anyone who who comes out, who drives out of there. Um, so we couldn't just, we couldn't do it that way, but we could go to other parts of of southern Iraq where the the security wasn't quite as extreme, the the threat wasn't as high. Um, it wasn't like we were going around on the ground, but we would invite people who were responsible, you know, so it might be tribal leaders, it might be local politicians, um, uh, whoever it might be, uh, to come into the military

• 28:52Speaker 05

  bases and then speak to us. And then we would kind of really just initiate a dialogue with them about what was going on, uh, uh, and try and get some ground truth about about what was happening in in detail, especially about the kind of security situation and about the political situation in the build up to the first ever democratic elections that they had in in Iraq in two thousand and six. Um, and the other thing we would do is we would, we would contact by telephone people who we kind of trusted on the ground. Uh, that was particularly in Basra where it was too dangerous for us to go out and um, and just get information from them. And it might be as simple as, you know, what's the price of a loaf of bread? What's the price of, you know, a gallon of petrol? These

• 29:35Speaker 05

  kinds of things that that are affecting people's everyday lives through to, you know, what are some of the, what are the militias? And there was a very big issue where the militias were taking control of the police. So, you know, the, the, the coalition forces at that time were trying to reform the the police forces and the military, um, and get rid of, as it were, the old Saddam loyalists. But in their place came a lot of people who were loyal to some of these, particularly the Iranian backed militias. And that presented its own very significant, uh, security challenges where some of these guys were using police and military units like they're in private armies. Um, trying to understand all those dynamics, really.

• 30:20Jack Murphy?

  Were you ever able to untangle that security situation in Basra? Um, you know, as far as like the the force protection aspect of it?

• 30:31Speaker 05

  Well, it was, of course, yeah, that was one of the things that was, you know, uppermost in our mind was that if we can really understand these situations, we're going to contribute to protecting UK personnel, US personnel, of course, they're Americans in Basra as well, you know, and, and of course, these new Iraqi recruits that were trying to build up into the, the new security forces there. But it was really kind of shifting sands. It was very difficult to get good intelligence, if you like, about what was, what was going on there. And there was always this kind of murky picture. There was always a degree

• 31:12Speaker 05

  of Iranian influence. We were never sure if we were overestimating that or underestimating it. There'd be attacks, there would be IEDs. You know, we, we never really got on top of it. And sometimes the, the attacks were extremely significant. I can remember one day travelling in a, in a helicopter. I was actually travelling from Basra to Kuwait in a military helicopter. We arrived and I took out my phone, it's one of those old Nokia type, type phones, and switched it, switched it on again after the flight. And I had a text from my mum saying, are you okay? And basically, unbeknownst to me, while we were in the, the air, a helicopter had taken off from Basra and been shot down by

• 31:55Speaker 05

  a surface-to-air missile over the city. Everyone on board died and, you know, British military helicopter. And, you know, that was a capability that I don't think we even realised those insurgents had at the time. So, yeah, I hate to say we, we never, we never got on top of it. And in fact, we were, it wasn't just that we were trying to counter the Iranian influence with increasingly kind of sophisticated weaponry that was being supplied and increasing domestic capability to manufacture, especially those shaped charge IEDs that were really lethal against armoured vehicles, roadside bombs. So it, it, it wasn't just, it wasn't

• 32:39Speaker 05

  just that, that, that element. It was also that...

• 32:44Speaker 05

  You know, we we just kind of were trying to counter various conspiracy theories that, like you alluded to earlier, go back, you know, more than a hundred years about British interference. And one of the craziest of all that you you might have heard was that at at one point while we were there, there was an outbreak of some kind of animal virus linked to badgers. And basically, the the the story took hold in Basra that the British were dropping infected badgers out of aircraft in order to, you know, attack the local population. It sounds absolutely crazy, but but people genuinely believe this.

• 33:27Speaker 05

  So so you you're trying to counter, I mean, it's kind of a losing battle in a way.

• 33:31Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, they well, they used to say when when I was over there with special forces and Ranger Battalion, that the kind of rumor was that we weren't really Americans, that we're Israeli commandos.

• 33:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:48Jack Murphy?

  And and then news broke this week that allegedly the Israelis set up a secret, you know, some sort of refueling, resupply depot in the deserts of Iraq outside Najaf. And it's like, oh, my God, this is like every conspiracy theory they believed come to life.

• 34:05Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, there's often, I mean, there's often a drop of truth in

• 34:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 34:10Speaker 05

  These theories, but but yeah, it's it's it's it's pretty crazy. But yeah, what was really interesting to see, obviously, was the kind of the the the interaction that we had with our our military counterparts. And we had, you know, both in terms of being based right there with the British Army in the same compound and attending their meetings and speaking to them every day, forming good relationships with them and seeing the challenges they they face right from the sort of top command level, general, you know, down to the sort of the private soldiers, teenage guys who are just being sent out on the streets to to patrol.

• 34:49Speaker 05

  But then also the more kind of specialist people who were there too, as you alluded to yourself, you know, the kind of special forces. We also had the, in our in our close protection units, we had a lot of former special forces guys and it was interesting to hear about some of their, you know, experiences and yeah, they were basically in charge of keeping us alive at any time we went anywhere.

• 35:20Jack Murphy?

  I was gonna say, this is like a particularly, you know, it sounds like an oxymoron, but a particularly aggressive form of diplomacy that you're out there in a war zone trying to conduct diplomacy before the war is over, really. And what was that like for you? And what was it like, you know, interfacing as a diplomat with the British military or other militaries?

• 35:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, in some ways, like, in some ways, very frustrating because there was, you know, there are obviously a lot of things we wanted to do, there are a lot of things the army wanted to do that were just not possible because you're kind of firefighting with the security situation there. But also, you know, fascinating to see how such a big deployment was managed. You know, I think we had, at some point, we had about 8,000 British troops in southern Iraq. I mean, nothing really compared to the American presence, but significant, very significant for a UK overseas operation. And just the way that the army was able to mobilize

• 36:30Speaker 05

  logistically, and not just the UK, but, you know, when we would go to places where we'd actually end up being kind of supported by US troops as well to be able to go out and do what we needed to do. The ability of the army to just kind of get stuff done is really impressive. And I developed huge respect for not only the way that it works under extremely difficult circumstances, but also just the kind of resolve of individuals who had to put themselves in harm's way every day. As a diplomat, you're just essentially wrapped in cotton wool and you're told, you know, if anything kicks off.

• 37:14Speaker 05

  Just get on the deck and, you know, don't move. And, you know, as a last resort, maybe everybody else has been shot dead. Maybe here's, here's, here's a pistol that you might be able to, you know, use if you're not too much of a muppet, um, to protect yourself. But absolutely as the last resort.

• 37:32Jack Murphy?

  Use it to shoot yourself at that point.

• 37:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, probably the best option.

• 37:40Jack Murphy?

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• 39:06Jack Murphy?

  How did things evolve in Basra from the time you got there to the time you left? What was the situation sort of like as your tour was winding down?

• 39:17Speaker 05

  Yes, I think there was, well, there was an Iraqi government in place by the time I left, which was very much a kind of Shia-dominated government because the Sunnis had boycotted the elections in large part. And I think what we were finding then was that the security situation was obviously pretty bad still. We were under fire every single day in our compound, rockets and mortars. Some of them, you know, old munitions that were woefully inaccurate and would miss the

• 40:00Speaker 05

  base by like a kilometer and others that would land on the building next to you and in the middle of the night when you're sleeping.

• 40:10Speaker 05

  And, you know, there were definitely casualties of those incidents too.

• 40:17Speaker 05

  I remember one night actually just hearing gunfire and there was so much of it. Some of the military guys were actually, had actually gone up onto the roofs of the building to see, to see what was going on. And literally the sky was just kind of lit up with tracer rounds going in all directions. I mean, like constant gunfire. And we thought, this is like end of days, you know, they're gonna have to, they're gonna have to like airlift everyone, all of us out here, get us, get us to Kuwait or somewhere. But then, and we kind of, we messaged some of our contacts in the city and just said, you know, what was going on? And, and they came back pretty quickly and said, oh, actually Iraq just beat Syria at football.

• 41:04Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, we thought literally it was, this was the final, the final battle, basically. Um, so the, the, the security situation got, got progressively worse and then, and then I think it was, it was only, and you know, there were some intelligence led operations to detain some of the key figures in that uh insurgency. But um, but ultimately, as I say, it was, it was like firefighting and um, really the only thing that was going to stop it was, was leaving. Uh, which is what we did ultimately a few years later, but um, I remember, I remember finishing, finishing that tour and thinking,

• 41:44Speaker 05

  I, I'm not quite sure what we achieved there. It was definitely worse when I left than when I arrived. Sad to say.

• 41:55Jack Murphy?

  You know, I think uh, our, our listeners would love it if I can ask you um, if you had any interaction with the SAS guys.

• 42:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, um, yeah, I did. I mean, I mean, uh, for starters, there was a um, you know, there, there, there was a private security company which um, was responsible for all the, all the diplomats, security called Control Risk Group.

• 42:24Jack Murphy?

  Yep.

• 42:24Speaker 05

  And um, had a number of former SAS personnel uh, serving there who we'd kind of see on a, on a daily basis. And you know, we'd go, there, there was, it, it, it, there was a lot of downtime in Iraq as well. Um, uh, you know, especially as a, as a, as a, as a civilian. Um, e- even actually the, the, the military guys uh, who were kind of actively deploying on the streets every day, they would have a lot of downtime. And so with our downtime, often we'd go with the close protection, we'd go down to the, to, to the ranges. Uh, we'd, we'd, we'd do some firearms drills, we'd do some driving, driving drills in the armored vehicles. There was some, there was definitely some fun stuff there too. We'd mess around with some of the kit that we had, night vision, things like that.

• 43:09Speaker 05

  Um, just ultimately with the purpose of being kind of familiar with it, but along the way, uh, you know, you, you, you, you're seeing some of these guys uh, in action. And it's really impressive. I mean, the, the professionalism, the speed and accuracy with their, with their weapons drills.

• 43:29Speaker 05

  And I'd done a little bit, I'd spent, I spent a little bit of time at Hereford actually previously, which was a kind of a, a kind of a short training course that was designed to, to sort of helping you be in a, in a conflict environment, be in a military environment. And, and, and that was run by the, the guys from, from Hereford. So, yeah, there was, there was a lot of, of contact there and various drills. One that I remember was, we were,

• 44:05Speaker 05

  it was, it was a situational awareness drill. And the idea was you kind of drive around this, this course and various things happen that you have to, to react to. And I won't give any, any spoilers about that, but essentially the situations ramp up to the point where you cannot escape and a bunch of guys are basically attacking you in your car. And they've got weapons and they're pointing them at you and they're smashing the windows of the car and they're wearing balaclavas and you kind of, you know, you, you're sort of like frozen with fear basically. And I remember getting, I remember getting dragged,

• 44:47Speaker 05

  dragged out of the, dragged out the window. And the guy who I was doing this with, who was also from, from the Foreign Office, so you're, you know, also a kind of diplomat who was going to be going off somewhere on the more dangerous side. He decided for some unknown reason to try fighting back. And

• 45:09Jack Murphy?

  How'd that work out?

• 45:13Speaker 05

  Not too well. He, he basically, so he had an AK-47 pointing at his face and he decides to grab the barrel of it with both hands. And I think the Hereford operator who was holding this weapon was, was so kind of shocked by that. He sort of, it almost took him a moment to process why this diplomat was attempting to, to, to take the weapon off him. And his, his response in the end was to essentially swing it round and just crack this diplomat in the head with the butt of the, the AK, leading to quite, quite a large kind of wound. On the guy's face that needed some medical treatment later.

• 45:57Speaker 05

  And then what they did is they they they picked him up. They popped the they popped the trunk of the of the car, the boot. They slung him in the back. They told me to get in the front. I was shaking so much I couldn't drive. They had to they had to reach in and kind of start the car for me. Anyway, we drove off and this other diplomat had. He actually had a a false eye. He'd he'd lost an eye earlier in his life. So we got to the end of the we got to the end of this course. And there's a medic there who's who's ready to check everyone over. And by this point, he's recovered his composure. So he gets out of the the car, kind of holding his eye. And he staggers over to the medic and he just pops his eye out in front of the medic.

• 46:43Speaker 05

  He pretty much has a heart attack until he realized exactly what was going on. So there was.

• 46:51Jack Murphy?

  His glass eye, that's great.

• 46:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly.

• 46:55Speaker 05

  But yeah, very impressive seeing seeing that seeing those guys in action.

• 47:00Jack Murphy?

  And I mean, these these sorts of scenarios, I mean, you can see why they put people like you through them because of the kind of sketchy situations that you find yourself in. I mean, we had, you know, our ambassador to Libya killed about 10 years ago, unfortunately. I know there there's that famous incident where they MI5 guys in Northern Ireland, where they got that there was a funeral.

• 47:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. And there was also there was another kid. There was a kidnapping incident in Libya too,

• 47:32Speaker 05

  which I was involved at the at the London End. I was involved in some of the negotiations for the release of of those guys. That was some some some special forces operators and and a guy from the Foreign Service.

• 47:49Speaker 05

  And yeah, these these things can happen kind of kind of all all too easily. It's all sort of quiet and then suddenly something like that can can happen. So any any training, I guess, you've had that might prepare you for for those kinds of situations, whether it's driving, whether it's using a weapon, whether it's just being in captivity and and recognizing that you have no control over it. Anything like that's going to be helpful.

• 48:17Jack Murphy?

  And where did you go after Basra? What was sort of the next stop for you?

• 48:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, I pretty much I took took some leave and I um and I did some traveling in in Africa just to kind of decompress a bit and um

• 48:34Speaker 05

  and then I and then I got myself ready. I went into what we call the preposting phase where you're getting it, you're getting everything ready, getting your visas, your accommodation,

• 48:44Speaker 05

  reading in on the subject matter and I and I went off to Jerusalem after that. So in Jerusalem, I was responsible for, I mean, the way the UK divides the work is that basically the embassy, the British Embassy in Tel Aviv deals with with Israeli counterparts and the British consulate in Jerusalem deals predominantly with Palestinian contacts. So I was working on that side and that meant I spent quite a lot of time in in the West Bank and in Gaza as well. So funnily enough, I mean, we think of Gaza has been a war zone for the last couple of years. It was on and off a war zone while I was there, but by by comparison to Iraq, it was it was like a

• 49:28Speaker 05

  a really normal posting where you could actually go out and meet people and and be a diplomat.

• 49:34Jack Murphy?

  And again, if we're to look back at the history, what was in the past called the the entire area, I guess, or most of it was called Palestine. That was a British colony, essentially.

• 49:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, after the after the First World War, there was a kind of you know, what they call the British mandate where the UK took over responsibility for for for for that area of Palestine. And that kind of went through essentially until the Second World War. But the Brits were at that time facing their own insurgency, funnily enough, from, ironically enough, from

• 50:19Speaker 05

  From Jewish groups at the time like Ha'Ganah and Irgun, who were wanting to establish themselves in that in that territory as well and had a very small presence at the time, but but also used, you know, armed kind of insurgent tactics. And then after the Second World War, of course, when the UN mandate set up the Israel and the Palestinian territories. But then with that succession of conflicts in, in, you know, the, the, the forty eight war and then sixty seven.

• 50:57Speaker 05

  And then again, seventy three, and gradually the political map changed and Israel took territory. And the Palestinians ended up kind of, kind of separated. I think the, the initial plan was, was, was pretty crazy to think that would work out. But that was obviously some of, some of our forbears who, who didn't really appreciate the, the tensions on the, on the ground, I think. And, and you ended up with these two quite distinct territories of West Bank and Gaza. That then kind of brought their own security issues and, and extremely high levels of, you know, Palestinian terrorism in the, in the seventies and the eighties.

• 51:41Speaker 05

  And then through to, yeah, the, the, what we'll call the Intifadas, these sort of Palestinian,

• 51:50Speaker 05

  kind of, kind of mass insurgencies, if you like, that, that involved a lot of, a lot of violent acts and terrorist acts. And in the early two thousands, suicide bombings as well by, by Hamas. And when I got to Jerusalem at the beginning, I first went out there at the end of oh six and really started the posting at the beginning of two thousand and seven.

• 52:15Speaker 05

  The security situation was actually fairly, fairly calm there and it, it flared up over, over the time that I was, that I was there. But it wasn't like active, it wasn't like in the Second Intifada with suicide bombings in, you know, bus stations in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and that kind of thing.

• 52:37Speaker 05

  But there were, there, there was an ongoing kind of level of security, security issues kind of bubbling away.

• 52:48Jack Murphy?

  And I take it it's what 2007 or eight by the time you get there?

• 52:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, early, early 2007 started that, started that posting. And the, the main issue then was that Hamas had won the elections.

• 53:08Speaker 05

  So they'd been democratically elected as the majority party in the Palestinian parliament, but were then boycotted by, by, by Israel, by the US, by the European Union, by most, well, many countries internationally that made it all kind of almost impossible for them to run the Palestinian government that's very dependent on foreign aid.

• 53:32Speaker 05

  And then at some point while I was there, kind of precipitated this, essentially a kind of small scale civil war where Fatah, that was the kind of

• 53:42Jack Murphy?

  I was about to say, yeah.

• 53:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, the, the, the, the other side, if you like, the kind of more secular, kind of socialist background.

• 53:54Speaker 05

  Arafat's old party that had come into, you know, with the, with the peace, the Oslo Peace Accords in the 90s, come into government and were responsible for areas of Palestinian territories.

• 54:12Speaker 05

  And were doing business with Israelis and negotiating with them and so forth.

• 54:17Speaker 05

  They ended up fighting Hamas, you know, sometimes opened battles on, on the streets with their armed wings.

• 54:25Speaker 05

  And it's kind of split in the end to Hamas controlling Gaza, which was the situation that has continued until just very recently. And then Fatah or Palestinian Authority, but really with Fatah focused security forces running the West Bank around kind of Ramallah, Nablus, Hebron, those kinds of areas.

• 54:50Jack Murphy?

  And when you arrived, what was sort of your job and what was the British foreign policy position towards these Palestinian territories?

• 55:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was, um, well, it, my, so my job was, um, it, it was that same real, uh, general concept of kind of, uh, gathering information from the place and also representing the UK. Uh, but the difference with Iraq was that in Jerusalem, I was actually able to represent the UK. I could go along to, um, you know, meetings of, of international organizations, whatever it might be, United Nations, diplomatic gatherings, uh, European Union.

• 55:31Speaker 05

  I could meet Palestinian politicians easily. I could go to their offices. We might go to restaurants, something like that. Uh, and, um, there, there wasn't a security threat in that sense. And I was able to talk to people about, about politics and try and understand what's going on there. Um, I was still learning Arabic at the time as well. So I was taking, I was taking Arabic classes in Jerusalem too, and trying to put that into practice, uh, every day as, as best I could.

• 56:00Speaker 05

  But, but it was very, it was pretty challenging because we, our policy was, we supported, uh, a, a two-state solution, which means we felt that there should be a state of Israel, but also a Palestinian state. Um, and that, uh, uh, anything we could do to, to support that outcome was, um, was, was in, in British interest and was, we believed in, in wider interest for the region, regional stability. Um, but we also had a policy whereby we couldn't speak to Hamas. So one of my jobs was to kind of find people who, who understood Hamas,

• 56:41Speaker 05

  uh, as a movement, as, um, you know, and, and really understand where they were, trying to understand where they were coming from, uh, but without being able to actually speak to them, which was, which was quite a challenge diplomatically, as you can imagine.

• 56:55Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say, um, so, so you have to find like people who have business with Hamas and try to like work it that way because you're not able to speak to them directly?

• 57:07Speaker 05

  Exactly, so it may be that you have people who are kind of, you might have people who are operating in the kind of academic space or a charity space, who just have a good understanding of it. And so you're getting information second hand essentially, but you're operating within your own government's rules, essentially.

• 57:32Jack Murphy?

  And I know the Brits have their own way of conducting back channels. Like, there's actually a position in Parliament called the backbenchers, right?

• 57:43Speaker 05

  The backbench?

• 57:44Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, and they're able to go and talk to people that actual members of Parliament can't talk to, right?

• 57:51Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, I think the general principle is basically the less senior you are, the more you're able to kind of conduct that type of business. If you're an ambassador, you're pretty much on show all the time, 24/7. Everything you say, anything you say could end up in a newspaper. Even if you go and have your hair cut, you know, you've got to watch what you say to the barber, or you've got to be, you're kind of on show, basically.

• 58:19Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 58:20Speaker 05

  And you get grilled everywhere you go. I remember envy the ambassador, envy him at all. He was constantly getting grilled every single thing he did. But, yeah.

• 58:34Speaker 05

  The, I wouldn't, you know, I've got to be careful, obviously, what I say in that area with back channels. But certainly, certainly when there is a significant situation, I think what Britain does very well is it finds people who can mediate between us and between the people we need to speak to, whether that's a kidnapped situation, or to do with other kinds of hostilities, whatever it might be. And I remember there was one, there was one situation in Gaza where we traveled down there with the ambassador because there was a BBC journalist called Alan Johnston, who'd been kidnapped by, not

• 59:16Speaker 05

  by Hamas, not by Palestinian Islamic Jihad or any other group, but actually by a kind By a criminal clan, essentially a kind of crime family in Gaza. And, you know, he'd he'd kind of gone a little bit off the beaten track and someone had kidnapped him. And we went down there to kind of find people who could, you know, advocate, mediate for his his release. Unfortunately, he he was released in the end. He actually wrote a wrote a book about being in captivity in in Gaza that's called Kidnapped, which is it's a it's a short book, very impactful. And I recommend that to anyone who who wanted to kind of go deeper into that that story.

• 59:58Speaker 05

  But yeah, you always had the sense down in Gaza that it was things were never far away from from from kicking off. It's a very poor place. People have kind of nothing to lose. There's a real culture of martyrdom. You see these huge posters and murals of people who've who've died one way or another, fighting these reds or been put in prison. And these guys are for the Israelis, for a lot of people, they're they're terrorists. In Gaza, they're heroes and their family, their families receive receive money and and status. And you can see how that kind of, you know, keeps going to the next generation.

• 1:00:42Jack Murphy?

  I I I'd like to probe a little bit deeper your impressions of Gaza and the West Bank. And as a British diplomat, did you have any sense that these problems were just intractable? That they they had no solution, or at least there's no solution that we as Westerners could really bring to them? I know that sounds hopeless, but I think we have to talk about it.

• 1:01:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think I think there's a there is there is a there is a certain there's a certain arrogance that we can have, I think, especially Britain with our colonial past and and the influence that we kind of had, especially in that region in the in the 20th century, that we can just turn up and sort situations out and.

• 1:01:27Speaker 05

  You know, I think the more time I spent there, the more I came to appreciate the the complexity of that of that situation, the more you come to appreciate um that that people on both sides have ha- ha- have legitimate claims to what they want and they have a legitimate kind of problem problem with with um the other side. And that applies both within the Palestinian within the Palestinian side of the the internal Palestinian conflict and Palestinian Israeli conflict as well. And you can see even in a wider context, the kind of regional conflict uh between Israel and

• 1:02:07Speaker 05

  and um and others that is, you know, is is in the news um right now. So when I went out there, I'd say I was pretty um optimistic and enthusiastic that that this was going to be fixed by the time, you know, I finished my posting. But I think by the end of it, it was um the divisions were deeper, both internally on the Palestinian side and between Palestinian Palestinians and Israelis. There was a real moment of hope, though, when um uh George Bush uh uh George, you know, George W. Bush uh launched his um kind of what he called the roadmap for peace and, you know, Condoleezza Rice was the um uh was the, you know, Secretary of State at the time. And um there was

• 1:02:51Speaker 05

  a real push there uh on kind of for both sides. Um but ultimately, I think it it it could only go so far when the Palestinians had their own internal conflict that was that was playing out. And um, you know, it it's from a personal point of view, you could kind of imagine a situation a bit like we had in Northern Ireland, where you had a split between you've got the IRA, but then the kind of The political wing sort of distances itself from the armed wing, gives up the armed struggle, moves into politics. And I was sort of willing Hamas to do that because that

• 1:03:33Speaker 05

  to me would have been the most obvious solution. But it didn't happen unfortunately. And equally on the Israeli side, I had sympathies for the Israelis that they said, you know, there's no one we can really do business with that is representing the Palestinians. But at the same time, the Israelis were building a lot of settlements in the West, especially in the West Bank, and kind of expanding areas that they would then deem to be part of Israel, which under international law weren't. And that was creating, that was sort of almost making it harder to undo if your position, which was the position of the UK at the time,

• 1:04:16Speaker 05

  was that you supported a two-state solution that seemed to be the best, the best option for a kind of lasting peace in that region, that area. But then there were other issues that were kind of at play too. So there's obviously, something people don't talk about too much is a very big Arab population inside Israel that was growing quite fast. And so you think, well, if this is going to become one big territory that's just Israel, it's actually going to end up with a majority Arab population. And Israel has a democratic political system. So they're going to end up with, you know, potentially a majority

• 1:04:59Speaker 05

  Arab government, I mean, to project ahead demographically. So it's very hard to, the longer I was there, the more complex I realized it was, and the more unfortunately I realized there was no quick fix to it. Certainly nothing was going to happen in my time. And then, of course, as we've seen in the last few years, it's very much, the security situation very much deteriorated since then with the Hamas attack on Israel and then the The war in Gaza and the kind of, you know, the impact, the impact of that, the lasting impact.

• 1:05:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean, when you were there, they almost seem like halcyon days by comparison. Now we're about, as far as like, to even talk about a two-state solution today just feels so naive and impossible. We got Israel invading Lebanon, expanding that buffer between the two countries and down into Syria along the Golan Heights. And then, of course, all the carnage in Gaza. What do you see as the, the maybe next 20 years for that region? If you were to, I know predicting the future is impossible, especially in that part of the world. But what do you think, based on your experience, where we're going here?

• 1:06:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, very, very hard to say. I think sadly, I'm not, I'm not optimistic about it. I mean, now we're in 2026. You know, it was 20 years ago that I was starting to read about, read in on this region and, uh, uh, read in, excuse me, on Israel, Palestine especially. And, um, and I tried to begin to understand that, that region. And the situation now is, is worse than it was, it was then.

• 1:06:48Speaker 05

  20 years from now, it's very hard to see without a real change of politicians, if you like. I think, I think one thing that's become quite apparent is that, you know, Israel has gone more to the right since I was there. When I was there, had a kind of center-left coalition. Netanyahu was in opposition. And what he's been able to do very effectively is form coalitions with these parties on the, on the religious right, these very conservative parties. And they have a hugely expanding voter base because a lot of the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox communities in Israel are, you know, typically having quite large families.

• 1:07:33Speaker 05

  They still have a very high provision of state support if you're engaged, certainly when I was there, and I believe the situation is the same now, if you're engaged in full-time religious study, you don't need to work, you receive a kind of a stipend from the government. And it's in the interest of politicians like Netanyahu to ally with those groups and get them supporting him and his policies because their interests are aligned in a kind of quite a nationalistic, kind of hard, hard right way. You know, crazy things like Hamas's attack on Israel, which I still don't understand

• 1:08:15Speaker 05

  now, kind of, you know, two and a half years on, I don't understand why Hamas made that that decision to do that. Maybe they didn't even really make a decision about it, just kind of, it just spiraled out of control from an initial attack. It's just total madness on their part and what it precipitated. But that's fueled those people on the right who say, you know, Gaza is just a security threat, the neighbors are a security threat, and it's, the country becomes kind of increasingly militarized and you don't have that will to make concessions and peace deals that

• 1:09:00Speaker 05

  was, that we saw back in the 90s and kind of the impact that kind of lasted or had a resurgence in the early 2000s, mid to late 2000s, I should say. So with those demographic trends, it's really hard to see any improvement, frankly. And when there's no prospect of improvement, then the realistic outcome is probably more conflict, I'm sad to say.

• 1:09:27Jack Murphy?

  I recently saw an interview with the American ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, and this guy sat there and said he's perfectly okay if Israel wants to take over everything from the Nile to the Euphrates because it says so in the Bible. I mean, you watch this kind of thing and it's like, this is a full-blown disaster. There's no other term you can use to describe it.

• 1:09:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, and there's, there's, that's some other thing that is that, that influence of, of a kind of the sort of religious aspect, if, if you like, and, you know, I think we're, we're, we're used to certainly, certainly, we think mostly in, in, in the West, religion not playing a particularly big part in, in government, um, and, and decisions in government, but increasingly, it, it is doing in, in, in that region. And then when you hear, yeah, about kind of Western, Western support along those lines, uh, you, you think, I, I, I'm not sure where, where this is gonna, this is gonna end. Without some major changes of personalities, unfortunately.

• 1:10:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. Um, and so when you left Gaza, where did the Foreign Office send you next?

• 1:10:48Speaker 05

  Well, after that, I went back to, to London and I was working on a, working in a policy team in London. So then it was my turn to kind of gather that information from our representatives overseas and, and kind of process that through into policy advice. And at this point, I was doing that at slightly more, uh, senior level. Um, I was focusing on, on the Gulf. Uh, and so there were, it was a more, it was less, at that time, less of a kind of conflict management or conflict, post-conflict reconstruction type of, type of role. Uh, and it was more about, uh, kind of economic diplomacy. It was more about business interests. It was a lot to do with kind of oil and gas and energy

• 1:11:30Speaker 05

  security, those kinds of issues. Um, and to me, that was a little bit less interesting, I think, than the, than the, the conflict-related diplomacy. Um, although it was good to have a chance to get a bit of a breather from those environments, be able to see more friends and family back in London, of course. But what happened for me at that point was that I really started to develop an interest in psychology. And I think that had come out of being in those conflict zones and seeing the impact of conflict on people, um, emotionally, cognitively, uh, and in some cases, you know, people developing post-traumatic stress disorder, other kind of trauma symptoms.

• 1:12:15Speaker 05

  Certainly, I know when I, when I, uh, came back from, from Iraq, um,

• 1:12:21Speaker 05

  I was definitely very jumpy. Anything that kind of went bang, I would, I would be, you know, suddenly my heart would start beating, the adrenaline would start pumping. And it was, it was, it was a trigger from those days where, um, you know, we were being rocketed and mortared in our base. And there was a real risk to life from that. But, um, I, I started kind of being a bit more interested in really the individual impact of these big scale geopolitics. And maybe a, a part of that was also feeling a little bit helpless after having spent three years in Jerusalem and, and seeing that situation deteriorate, seeing the Iraq situation deteriorate and thinking,

• 1:13:03Speaker 05

  well, there's maybe not so much I can do about these, this, this big scale politics, um, you know, uh, without going into politics, which didn't really appeal to me. But I am interested in understanding more about the impact on the individual. So I actually started studying psychology, uh, part time. And, uh, yeah, there was an old, there was an old scheme which they've since, they've since scrapped, um, where, whereby if you wanted to study something that was related to your job in, in the Foreign Service, they would, um, give you a little bit of time off to do it. They would pay some of the course fees. So I enrolled in a, in a psychology course, um, at UCL

• 1:13:42Speaker 05

  in, in London. And I started kind of studying there and just getting more interested in psychology. And at some point, it actually reached a, reached a stage where I thought, in fact, I, I don't think I want that lifestyle of, of, of constantly moving overseas and upending my life and, and, uh, leaving everyone and everything I know behind and starting from scratch, if you like, in a new place. But actually, I want to stay in the UK and see if I can switch careers into psychology. And it kind of, kind of started to, to look seriously at that.

• 1:14:20Jack Murphy?

  I mean, did, did you pursue that? Did you leave the Foreign Office to go and get another degree?

• 1:14:27Speaker 05

  I did, yeah, I did. So I, I, um, it was a very difficult decision. And, you know, there were a few jobs that were coming up and this was actually just before uh, the Arab Spring. So, um,

• 1:14:43Speaker 05

  always kind of, it was kind of around that time. So, um, there was conflict going on in Libya and there was the possibility of going there and, you know, I, I thought about that and thought, maybe not. There was, there was a possibility of going to Yemen. There was, there was Damascus. And I kind of thought, I realized, you know, basically I was being, um, I was getting kind of pigeonholed as this, you know, the Arabic conflict guy. And, uh, and I thought to myself, do I want this for the next kind of 10 plus years? Um, and, and I thought to myself, actually, maybe I'm going to quit while I'm ahead. And, uh, so I did, I, I, I quit.

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• 1:17:18Speaker 05

  Job, thinking, you know, if this doesn't work out, hopefully I can, hopefully they'll help me back at some point. But, but it did start to work out and I, I followed the interest in psychology. I went back to university. So I was there aged, you know, 30, 29, 30 with all these, these undergrads who were kind of 18, 19, and I was the kind of keen guy at the front taking notes. The rest of them are all on their phones, like half asleep or whatever, at the back of the lecture theater. But I was, I was very motivated at that point because I thought this could be a new, a new career for me. And I knew some, I had some friends who, who worked as clinical psychologists in our

• 1:17:58Speaker 05

  National Health Service, particularly a couple of people who, who were specialists in treating PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. And that was very interesting to me, coming from the conflict background and having experienced a few of those symptoms myself. And so I ended up kind of volunteering a bit in our health service, doing some work there. And, and eventually went, went to work in, in the health service as a psychologist and started to specialize in, in working with trauma.

• 1:18:29Jack Murphy?

  Interesting. So you specialized in clinical psychology yourself as well?

• 1:18:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, so I did. While I was studying, I was doing research studies as well. And a lot of that was was trauma focused.

• 1:18:47Speaker 05

  And then and then moving into actually working, starting to work as a therapist with people who who were experiencing PTSD. Which was actually fascinating because PTSD is is one of those conditions that anybody could experience. I mean, you know, the next time you step out of your house, there might be some kind of some kind of road accident. You might hear something, look out your window and you see a violent incident unfolding on the street outside your house. And you know, you can end up experiencing PTSD because of that. It can happen to anyone almost any time. But it's so it's very kind of relatable in that sense, but it's also very treatable.

• 1:19:31Speaker 05

  So the way of treating it is that you or the main way of treating it with a kind of talking therapy is to get people to describe the experience as it happened to them and start to unpack bits of it that are particularly significant, particularly frightening for them. And and try to help them process those memories. So, you know, working with that in London, you've got people from all walks of life. You've got former services personnel. You've got, you know, been in Iraq and Afghanistan. You've got people who've been victims of terrorist attacks in London or elsewhere in the UK. You've got refugees.

• 1:20:11Speaker 05

  You've got people who fled conflict, who've been political prisoners, victims of torture, victims of human trafficking, victims of crime, gang crime, as well as just the standard stuff like, I say, standard. You know, accidents that that cause people to, you know, like road traffic accidents that can cause people to have traumatic experiences as well. So you're dealing with dealing with all of that.

• 1:20:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, really, really fascinating and kind of linked through to to that Foreign Office work as well.

• 1:20:45Jack Murphy?

  And were you in a private practice?

• 1:20:49Speaker 05

  No, I worked in our, in our health service.

• 1:20:51Jack Murphy?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:20:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, so, so basically it was, uh, uh, uh, in the UK, we have a national health service. So it's basically more or less, depending on the situat- the, the situation, free healthcare. And, uh, um, i- if you, if you're experiencing this, you, you can go along and, and see a, a local doctor and they can then send you to a therapist and eventually it kind of scales up to the point where you, you'd see a trauma specialist.

• 1:21:22Speaker 05

  And you, and you get, you get treatment. So yeah, we had people from all walks of life.

• 1:21:27Jack Murphy?

  So we, uh, of course, you know, talked to a lot of veterans on this, uh, on this podcast and a lot of them watch it as well. Do you have any advice for somebody that is, you know, going through the process of having post-traumatic stress and they're struggling with it? What steps do you think they should take to get that treated? You know, it could be in America or Britain, whatever, whatever the case.

• 1:21:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, a- a- absolutely. I mean, it's, I think it's worth saying that, you know, um, post-traumatic stress disorder and, and post-traumatic stress symptoms, um, that could just be a, a kind of less, less developed version of that, but still problematic and causing people, um, you know, issues with their kind of functioning, their mood in, in day-to-day life, making things difficult for them that, that they want to do. It can happen, it can come on many years after the events. So, you know, we saw veterans who, who'd had, you know, they, they'd served a, a, a, a long time ago in, in previous conflicts, the UK had been involved in the Balkans conflicts,

• 1:22:36Speaker 05

  the Falklands or Northern Ireland and, and places like that. And years later, uh, the symptoms might come up for them depending on other triggers and situations in their, in their lives. And they might uh find that they are kind of particularly jumpy, watchful, you know, what we call hypervigilant. They're avoiding stuff that they would otherwise want to do because it's triggering off uh you know, memories for them. And that might be something as as as every day as as kind of driving, getting in your car and driving. And all of a sudden, when you've got oncoming traffic, suddenly these memories are coming back to you. What tends to happen is in the first instance, a lot of, especially a lot of, a lot of men,

• 1:23:21Speaker 05

  a lot of veterans will um try and kind of self-medicate. They they they rather than seek help, you know, because they're people who've been taught to be very self-reliant, they'll often um kind of go for a drink and, you know, one drink can turn into two and people can end up with with a problem that ends up kind of masking the underlying issues. And um I think that the the main message is um if you if you're experiencing that, then it's best to just just uh talk to someone. These are very normal experiences. It doesn't mean you haven't coped with the situation. You know, you're someone who's had to cope with extraordinary situations that most members

• 1:24:04Speaker 05

  of the public would never, never have to deal with and not be able to deal with. And it's very understandable that with those pressures that have been put on a lot of service personnel, that the effects, uh those psychological effects can can can come home kind of many, many years later. And there are specialist uh veteran services in the UK. There's an organization called Combat Stress, which um uh works especially with with veterans. Um and uh I'm sure there are e- equivalent services in the US too. Um and maybe we can post something in the in the in the comments here that might be uh uh places for people to to look and and the main thing I would say is uh is, you

• 1:24:48Speaker 05

  know, if you if you notice that there's some some things that you're not able to do that that you want to do and you think that experiences that have happened to you in the past are the are the root cause of that, then talking to someone about it is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength and it will help you to get back that life you you had before and the life you you want to live. And PTSD is extremely treatable, really responds to treatment. Um and there are people who can help.

• 1:25:17Jack Murphy?

  When you talk about how it can come and hit people years later, something I've noticed with men, but presumably this can happen to women as well, when men retire and suddenly their life slows down and they have time to process all of these things, it seems like they get hit really hard.

• 1:25:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, big life transitions are often kind of catalysts for onset of symptoms. So it could be retirement, it could be divorce or breakup of a relationship, it could be bereavement, grief, you know, loss of a loved one. Sometimes it could be loss of a job. Sometimes these things that change how we see ourselves in the world and our sense of kind of purpose and who we are can bring up these memories and give them a new significance that perhaps we, yeah, either we didn't appreciate before, or like you say, you kind

• 1:26:22Speaker 05

  of, if you're working, you're not given time to process those past experiences and it's only when life slows down a bit and perhaps the meaning of your life changes a little bit that you start to think about what happened there. So, so yeah, it's, those big life transitions are huge flashpoints for the onset of symptoms, absolutely.

• 1:26:45Jack Murphy?

  Are you still practicing psychology?

• 1:26:48Speaker 05

  No, not, not as a, not as a therapist. I do still work as a psychologist, but kind of also with a, you know, my, my, my other background from foreign service and particularly with a kind of security issues with both hats on for a cybersecurity consultancy. So I, I analyze insider risk and, and threats for them, particularly kind of espionage and state, state threats. And I do that alongside writing novels. So that's my, that's my life now.

• 1:27:25Jack Murphy?

  I was gonna say with your background, you'd be like a very good candidate, I think, for like a crisis negotiator or something like that.

• 1:27:36Speaker 05

  Well, I, yeah, I mean, I, thanks, Jack. Yeah, I guess a bit of psychology, a bit of diplomacy.

• 1:27:43Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:27:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, the one, the one experience I, I had with that, talking to some, talking to some, some, some Libyans. Luckily, it did, it, it did kind of work out. But yeah, huge pressure. In fact, I was watching a very good documentary recently about some journalists who were kidnapped in Syria and, uh, on BBC and, um, yeah, the, the hostage negotiator who was brought in to deal with that. And he ended up in some extremely sketchy situations in Syria. Yeah. So that, I mean, as long as I could do it on the other end of a phone, maybe.

• 1:28:22Jack Murphy?

  So tell us how the spy novels came about.

• 1:28:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, it, it kind of started really, I suppose, um, I was, I was always a fan of thrillers generally, crime novels. And I suppose working in our health service in, in London with a lot of victims of crime, and even in some cases, some perpetrators of crime, I still remember the traumatized, the traumatized drug dealer I had to, uh, had to work with, who was, um, who'd been the victim of attempted murder.

• 1:28:59Speaker 05

  And was experiencing trauma as a result of that. Hearing these, hearing these stories, I kind of thought, um, you know, it might be interesting to write something about that. And actually, it was my sister who, who prompted me to do that. She's a novelist. She writes historical, kind of murder mystery spy thrillers, set in Elizabethan times in, in the UK. And, um, under, under the name S J Paris. And she encouraged me to just have a go. She said, you know, with your experience, what kind of the things you've done might. You know, you'd have an interest, you could tell some interesting stories. So I started kind of playing around with this, messing around with it.

• 1:29:40Speaker 05

  And it started out as a very cathartic experience where I'd come home from work in the health service. I've been doing, you know, therapy sessions and and I'd sit there and I'd write. And I've realized, I came to realize eventually that this writing fiction was my way of dealing with, of processing my memories, both from my time in the foreign service and the stress of working in the in the health service with uh people who who had B T S D and other kind of kinds of mental health conditions. Um, and at some point, I I think at the beginning, it just, it, you know, it it wasn't very good, but I was kind of enjoying it. And then I practiced and and improved and got some feedback from some people and and eventually got to the point where I I published a crime novel.

• 1:30:24Speaker 05

  And that was a really a detective story. The first story I'd ever written was a kind of mash up detective stories spy thriller. And I remember this got shown to a few publishers and they kind of went, uh, you know, no thanks. It's kind of weird mash up. Uh, and then a couple of years later, um, I am a book called I Am Pilgrim came along. Um, I don't know if you you've come across that. It was also a kind of, it was a mash up detective stories spy thriller and was incredibly successful. Also, uh, I should add, much better written than anything I had produced. Um, but but that was kind of, that was kind of inspiring. By that point though, I'd gone down the route of writing detective stories.

• 1:31:07Speaker 05

  So I did that for a while, but it all, it always had, there was always a character who had a kind of ex military background. There was always a lot of psychology in there. There was somebody who was in a in a trauma treatment session with a therapist. There was always these kind of themes coming up. And then eventually I.

• 1:31:27Speaker 05

  I decided that I was going to kind of, kind of step back from the contract I had with the publisher at the time, where they wanted me to write more psychological thrillers. This is the kind of, you know, small cast of characters, often unreliable narrator, probably being kind of gaslit by their intimate partner, who's maybe also trying to kill them, like that, that kind of story. Um, and I thought, I'm going to write the book I just want to write, and I don't actually care whether anybody publishes it or not. And that turned into this, this book, which is Committed. And this was set in America. Uh, I used to live in the States, we didn't actually mention that when you, uh, I, I was

• 1:32:09Speaker 05

  just describing upbringing, but I spent a year living, uh, living in the US, relatives uh, uh, in the, in the East Coast. And I went to live there and went to school for a year, uh, in the US. And I spent a lot of time while I was there in rural Pennsylvania, which is really interesting area, because you've got a lot of people from that kind of, those kind of very traditional backgrounds, um, who live in that big space between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. And so I, I, I had an idea for a book that was a kind of a conspiracy thriller, it was a terrorism thriller, um, and I thought, uh, I'm going to write that and set it in, in Pennsylvania.

• 1:32:54Speaker 05

  Um, and I had a lot of fun writing that, uh, and trying to write in the American voice as well. And according to a couple of, a couple of American friends who read it, it is more or less okay in terms of vernacular, vocabulary, that, that kind of thing. Um, but I drew on a lot of those, those experiences. And that was a kind of first foray into something that was, uh, or a second foray, if you like, into more the spy genre. And then I, I really took the plunge on writing a kind of spy action thriller with, uh, Opcigan, um, which is, is coming out in, um, in the UK in a couple of weeks. Cool. And this, this is a, um,

• 1:33:39Speaker 05

  As I say, it's a spy action thriller. So it's about a former intelligence officer from MI6, Secret Intelligence Service, who teams up with her ex-lover, ex-boyfriend, on and off, who's a former SAS operator. They met in Iraq.

• 1:33:58Speaker 05

  Something which may or may not have been based on some real-life scenarios. And they head off on a journey across Europe to track down this kind of unknown enemy that's plotting a mass casualty terror attack and try and untangle this mystery around it and stop that attack before it takes place with huge kind of loss of human life. So it's very international. It's kind of pacey. It's got the espionage elements. It's got the military elements. And circling back a little bit, Jack, to to the earlier part of our conversation, I was able to draw on the knowledge of some of my friends and contacts who've worked in those

• 1:34:42Speaker 05

  those agencies and really try and get the details as accurate as possible without obviously breaking the Official Secrets Act. So I hope it's authentic and it's definitely passed muster with a few people. Ilana Berry, Iris Berry, Jack Carr, Charles Beaumont, James Wolfe and Julian Fisher and some of these people have have given it their endorsement. So hopefully it is authentic.

• 1:35:12Jack Murphy?

  All right, three of whom have been on this show before. So there's that. And you know, I'd like to ask you, and I mean, I write action also, and I think a big part of what I'm trying to do is show you the action when I write the book. But I wanted to ask from your perspective, if there's something that you wanted to say, like I recently read a point of view that Ian Fleming's James Bond was a kind of comment about the relevancy of the British in the aftermath of empire, essentially. You know, what Britain's sort of like relevancy around the world during the Cold War era.

• 1:35:56Jack Murphy?

  What do you see as maybe the role, if not your own work, of espionage thrillers today?

• 1:36:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, great, great question actually, because I think they have had a bit of a resurgence. There are new authors coming through in the genre, some fantastic writers on your side of the pond. David McCloskey, as well as Alana Berry and others, and over here too.

• 1:36:25Speaker 05

  And I think it's no accident that, as we've seen, you know,

• 1:36:33Speaker 05

  conflicts involving Russia kind of escalating last few years. We've come to recognise some of the extent of the threat that may be posed by China. And then, of course, what we've seen with Iran in the recent months.

• 1:36:53Speaker 05

  I think it shows that these kind of geopolitical issues are of interest to people and they want to be able to understand them, but they also want to kind of, in a way, know that the situations are going to be okay. So they want this, perhaps this mash-up between the reality of a geopolitical threat, a state threat, you know, where you might have a country that is planning, that is sponsoring an act of terrorism, or you might have a foreign intelligence service that's planning to assassinate somebody in your country. They want the realism of that, but they also want escapism of kind of knowing

• 1:37:36Speaker 05

  that there's a hero who can make it all okay at the end. But that that hero perhaps isn't necessarily the kind of bulletproof character of decades gone past, but somebody who is a bit more rounded, maybe a bit more vulnerable, maybe has some relatable kind of psychological challenges as well. And so I think when you put those things together, and... You you add the catalyst of writers, particularly in the UK, like McHeron, who've kind of re-energized that that spy genre after the death of, you know,

• 1:38:15Speaker 05

  John le Carré with with humor and satire. So we can also kind of in difficult economic and confusing political times, we can also poke fun at the people in power and kind of see how ridiculous some of them are and some of their decisions. You put all that together. I think it's quite good, quite a good basis for for spy fiction, for the interest in in spy fiction and that it can it can be those things to to readers.

• 1:38:50Jack Murphy?

  And so Committed is out now. Octagon is coming out in a couple of weeks. What what's the publication date in the UK?

• 1:38:58Speaker 05

  Octagon, the publication date is the 28th of May. So yeah, if you're if you're watching this in in the US, hopefully you'll be able to order it off the UK website if you were if you're interested to read or maybe download, you know, the ebook version. There'll be an audio audio version of it, too, coming around that time. And yeah, US publication, hopefully, at some at some point after that.

• 1:39:30Jack Murphy?

  And we'll have some links down the description for our viewers who want to find the books.

• 1:39:36Jack Murphy?

  Chris, is there anything else that you'd like to talk about? Anything you'd like to touch upon in this interview before we get going?

• 1:39:47Speaker 05

  Well, I think I think the way that we've we've we've covered the issues kind of chronologically is has been been really interesting, I hope, interesting for for listeners to kind of go on that on that, hopefully go on that journey with me over the last kind of 20, 20, 25 years or so, through those geopolitical issues and kind of see the thread that of how that's evolved in terms of my interests.

• 1:40:21Speaker 05

  And where that's kind of taken me today. So I don't think there's anything that I can think of particularly that we haven't covered or that I really want to add in at this point. But yeah, mainly to thank people for listening. I hope it's been interesting. I hope it's been useful. And I hope it kind of also shows people that you can follow your interests as they evolve over time and find a sense of meaning in what you're doing and a sense of inspiration to, yeah, to follow your interests.

• 1:41:01Jack Murphy?

  Where can people find you on the internet? Do you have a website or anywhere else? Social media, anything?

• 1:41:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, I have a website, which is CJmerit.co.uk. So CJM E double R I double T.co.uk.

• 1:41:22Speaker 05

  I'm on X as Dr. CJ Merritt. And I'm on Instagram as well as Chris J. Merritt. So there's, I don't post too much on there, but certainly the website, I would say, is an interesting place to look if you want to find out about maybe some of those past books and a bit more about my background, or to get in touch with me.

• 1:41:52Jack Murphy?

  Great. Well, thank you so much, Chris, for joining us. I really appreciate it. And thank you, everyone who joined us on the show tonight. And we'll see all of you next time. And say hi to Julian and Charles to me, for me, when you meet.

• 1:42:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, will do. I'll be sure to do that. Cheers, Jack.

• 1:42:17Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm John Ashkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:42:31Speaker 00

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:42:42Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made Point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:43:13Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com PARENTS to learn more. OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A plus by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star Trust

• 1:43:56Jack Murphy?

  Pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Hey guys, I want to take a moment to tell you about the Team House podcast newsletter. If you go and subscribe, it's totally free. And what it will do is aggregate all of our data, all of our content that we put out, the things that are on the team house, on our geopolitics podcast, Eyes On, things that I write journalistically with Sean Naylor on the high side, anything else that we have going on, books we recommend, upcoming guests that we have coming on the

• 1:44:39Jack Murphy?

  show, and also, you know, filtering in some fun stuff in there as well. If you go and check it out, we send it out just once a week. We don't want to spam you guys. It's just a kind of roll up of all of our content on a weekly basis. You can find our newsletter at teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Again, the website for that is teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. So we hope to see you there. The link will be down in the description.

• 1:45:13Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:45:27Speaker 00

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:45:38Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:46:09Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

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• 1:47:13Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:47:28Speaker 00

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation.

• 1:47:33Speaker 07

  I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood. And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:47:44Speaker 03

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:47:50Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:48:10Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 1:48:37Speaker 06

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:49:15Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel. People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation. I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood. And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:49:46Speaker 03

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:49:52Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:50:11Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:50:39Speaker 03

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:51:15Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel. People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation. I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood. And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to

• 1:52:00Speaker 07

  you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:52:11Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:52:39Speaker 03

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:53:14Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel. People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation. I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood. And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought

• 1:53:59Speaker 07

  to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:54:11Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:54:38Speaker 03

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:55:15Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel. People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation.

• 1:55:35Jack Murphy?

  I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:55:41Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:55:46Speaker 03

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:55:52Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:56:12Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:56:39Speaker 03

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:57:18Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:57:33Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm

• 1:57:39Speaker 07

  Deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood. And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:58:15Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:58:42Speaker 03

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:59:18Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:59:32Speaker 00

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:59:43Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:59:48Speaker 03

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:59:54Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 2:00:14Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 2:00:42Speaker 06

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:01:18Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:01:33Speaker 00

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant.

• 2:01:34Jack Murphy?

  Tolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:01:43Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:01:49Speaker 03

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:01:55Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:02:14Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 2:02:42Speaker 06

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A plus by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star trust pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:03:18Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:03:33Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation.

• 2:03:38Speaker 07

  I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood. And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:03:49Speaker 03

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:03:55Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 2:04:15Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 2:04:42Speaker 03

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 2:05:26Speaker 03

  Zolir 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions.

• 2:05:32Speaker 06

  Due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair, paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 2:06:13Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down, rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default. And parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 2:06:40Speaker 03

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses, like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.