Mikey Madison (‘Anora’) Enters Her Golden Age

Actor Mikey Madison has delivered the performance of the season with her star-making turn in Anora https://neonrated.com/films/anora. She joins us this week on the heels of her recent Oscar nomination for Best Actress. We begin by discussing the organic partnership she formed with writer/director Sean Baker (3:30), the ‘emotional preparation’ required to tell this vulnerable story (7:00), her San Fernando Valley upbringing (11:45), and her formative years working with Pamela Adlon on Better Things (22:38). On the back-half, Mikey reflects on her breakout part in Quentin Tarantino’s Once Upon a Time… in Hollywood (30:30), the sex professionals who helped inform her work in Anora (32:50), how she excavated her past to create in the present (43:10), and where she hopes to go on the other side of this towering achievement (49:50). Feedback, future guest ideas, or thoughts on Anora? Email us at [email protected]. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:21Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:38Sam Fragoso?

  Today, actor Mikey Madison. Her career began in earnest back in 2016, playing the acerbic eldest daughter to Pamela Adlon in Better Things. Madison came of age on that hit FX program. She got the part at the age of 15. By the time the show concluded its fifth and final season, she was 23. Since then, she's emerged as one of the finest young actors we have, with memorable turns in films like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, where she plays a Manson girl, and Scream 5 as, spoiler, a Ghost-Faced Killer. But I'm not sure anything could have prepared us for what she delivers in the new film, Onora.

• 1:22Sam Fragoso?

  It won the Palme d'Or at last year's Cannes Film Festival and has since been nominated for Best Picture. Madison, who was also nominated for an Oscar, plays the titular character, a young sex worker from Brooklyn who gets a chance to start anew when she meets and then quickly marries the son of a Russian oligarch. The film is written and directed by Sean Baker. He's made some other excellent pictures like Tangerine, The Florida Project, Red Rocket, but I think this is a singular achievement. The story and style of the film is a cross between Knights of Siberia, Pretty Woman, and Zola, a Cinderella story that's at once thrilling, funny, and devastating.

• 2:09Sam Fragoso?

  If you haven't seen it, it's still out in limited release across the country. It's also now available to rent on VOD. But for today, we dive into the creative process that made this movie possible. The organic partnership between Sean and Mikey, the sex professionals that helped shape the world of the film, and the emotional preparation required to tell this story. We also discuss Mikey's upbringing, growing up in a home of psychologists in California, her formative work on better things, and how she gave everything to deliver an Oscar-nominated performance.

• 2:49Sam Fragoso?

  This is Mikey Madison.

• 3:06Sam Fragoso?

  Mikey Madison, welcome to the show.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Hi there. Happy to be here.

• 3:11Sam Fragoso?

  How are you feeling?

• 3:12Speaker 01

  I'm good. I'm in London right now, continuing this press tour. It's been really interesting past handful of months and, you know, we're still gone. We're still gone.

• 3:26Sam Fragoso?

  I want to start with Enora and kind of talk about the timeline of it a little bit. In 2022, Sean Baker, the director, and Samantha Kwan, the producer and his partner, they go to see you in Scream opening weekend. You then have a coffee and talk about making a movie together. And outside of historic, rare movie posters, the only thing Sean loves more than that, I think, are voice memos.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Have you gotten some of those?

• 3:57Sam Fragoso?

  I got one this morning. So I'm curious, after that first meeting, what was the voice memo that he sent you?

• 4:04Speaker 01

  I remember because after the meeting, I mean, he had offered me the role, but there was still a part of me, I had never been offered a role like that before. And so I was like, wait, is this actually real? Is this genuinely happening? And he sent me a voice memo. He's like, hey, Mikey, it was so lovely meeting you. Just letting you know, the role is yours. And also just so you know, I like sending voice messages. I hope that you're okay with that. Don't feel pressured to send them back.

• 4:32Sam Fragoso?

  Are you a voice memo person?

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Now I am, but before I did not know what to do with the voice memos. And so he would leave me like two, three minute voice memos, which is kind of wonderful because you get to actually hear his voice when you're talking. And so you're not sort of interpreting it in, in just your own head.

• 4:52Sam Fragoso?

  Right. The tone of the message.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:54Sam Fragoso?

  Is it a joke here? Is it, is he serious there?

• 4:57Speaker 01

  It's nice because it's kind of old fashioned in a way because people don't really just like pick up the phone and talk to you that way anymore. They just send text messages. And so I liked it, but it also made me nervous because I was like, I feel like I need to send them back.

• 5:10Sam Fragoso?

  How many takes?

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Oh, multiple takes, but also I wrote it, I wrote it down first in my notes app, the first couple of messages, what I wanted to say back to him, because I would have to like listen to the message a few times because he would say like multiple things that I needed to respond to.

• 5:25Sam Fragoso?

  Right. You wanted to address all the points.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I like listened to it also. And I was like, this feels so unnatural for me. But now I don't think I'm his best friend, but he's my best friend. And so now I will just send like long voice messages with like very long pauses in between my thoughts and I don't care.

• 5:44Sam Fragoso?

  So from that first voice memo, that was in like January of 2022, you begin shooting in January of 2023. Now that we're two years removed from filming, three years removed since that first coffee, how do you see and understand the story of Anora now? Like, how do you explain it to yourself or to your family and friends?

• 6:13Speaker 01

  It's a really interesting question because I do think that when I was playing the character, I was very much stuck in her mindset. I was really only thinking about the film from her perspective and what was happening to her, I think, because I had to, just in order to, to play the character. And so now I'm able to see it from more of an audience's perspective.

• 6:38Sam Fragoso?

  What's the difference between the two in your mind?

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Because I think that, I mean, look, I'm the, I was the vessel for the character. Like it wasn't me, but it, it's me. And so it's my, it's my body and my aversion, it's a, it's a version of me from another universe, kind of. And so, you know, watching the film for the first time, I was still kind of stuck in. I don't know, stuck in her perspective. I wasn't able to distance myself and just sit back and watch it as a whole. And it really took me the second try at Cannes to, I think, watching it with an audience helped. But to see it from an audience's perspective, because I'm watching it and I'm thinking, oh, you know, this, this really is, it's just not me at all.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  And now I just have to let go of like, looking at myself like, oh, that's me, but I'm doing, it's not me. And I don't know, does that make sense? I'm not being as articulate as I wanted to.

• 7:37Sam Fragoso?

  No, no, that totally tracks. I mean, your character, Anora, who, who likes to go by Annie, is this Russian-American dancer and sex worker from Brighton Beach. And then finds herself swept up into this world of a young, free-spending son of a Russian oligarch. Now, energetically, there is such a contrast between you and your character. And I'm so curious, as the daughter of two psychologist parents, I've heard you say, quote, "I grew up really understanding people and why they do things and why they don't do things."

• 8:17Sam Fragoso?

  So when it comes to Annie, how did you process what she does and what she doesn't do? How did you understand that?

• 8:24Speaker 01

  I think I have always had an understanding and a curiosity towards people and psychology and why they do things and why they don't do things. But they, my parents approached, I think, from a very like, scientific point of view. But I've always been curious about the emotional side of that.

• 8:40Sam Fragoso?

  What did you mean by scientific?

• 8:42Speaker 01

  They could see someone and diagnose them and say, oh, this person is thinking this. The reason they did that is because of this. And then possibly this thing happened to them in the, in the past, and that's why they're acting this way in the future. But to me, I was always curious about like, what does it feel like? What are they feeling exactly? What's like the feeling inside of them? And so for me, I think it was just, I try to be really intuitive with that. You know, I did a lot of like, a lot of preparation. Emotional preparation, a lot of, obviously, physical preparation, language, dialect. And so, when I was focusing on, like, the emotional preparation, I really was just trying to understand, like, who she is, what her morals are,

• 9:26Speaker 01

  just the kind of person that she is, like, what her life has been like. And I'd never really done that before, but I'd always heard of actors, like, you know, creating these really deep, complicated backstories for the characters. And I was like, well, you know, why don't I try to go a little bit deeper this time and try to do something like that? And so, I just asked myself many questions about her.

• 9:47Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, what were those questions that you would ask yourself?

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I have them all on my computer.

• 9:52Sam Fragoso?

  Should I go get it for you?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, go on my computer and get them, please. No, but I'm on my computer right now, so I was just thinking about that. But, questions like, when did she lose her virginity? What was her first client like? What is her relationship with her parents? Like, who's her best friend? What cigarettes does she smoke? Just any kind of questions like that. And I would just, I would just took, you know, a while, and I just wrote them all down on my computer, and then I would just go in and fill them out. And I think, by doing that, it just kind of planted certain seeds in my head of really getting to understand her. Because she's always been very different from me, and like, also exists on a different, like, energetic level than I do.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Annie, I got a kid who wants someone who speaks Russian.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  You know, Jimmy, the girls and I have been talking, and if your cousin doesn't start showing us some respect, we're not gonna tip out anymore.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  All right, I'll talk to him. Who are you talking about, the DJ? All right, seriously? He's an asshole.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  I shared my playlist with him, and he was very rude and dismissive.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  You're killing me. Let's go, come on.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  No, I'm eating my food.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  That's why you have Tupperware, keep things fresh.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Keep eating.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  He's a spender, come on, let's go.

• 11:09Speaker 03

  Time is money, baby, get a roll on it.

• 11:11Speaker 04

  Without fans, without nothing. And then some fucking, then one second, rock. Guys, fucking, and then we talk. Okay, hello, this is the beautiful Annie. She's gonna take care of everything you need tonight. Ты должна знать русский, правильно? No, I don't speak Russian. Russian, but I know Russian. Where is that?

• 11:35Speaker 04

  I can speak Russian. I just prefer not to.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  But you can go ahead and speak Russian.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Clearly, I really exist on a very more lower frequency. I like to move through life quite slowly. It's just the way I do things. Maybe it's because I'm from Los Angeles. I don't know. I know people walk slower where I'm from, but.

• 11:58Sam Fragoso?

  Well, let's talk about where you're from. Because you're born in the San Fernando Valley, but you spend your early years in Santa Clarita before moving to, I think, Woodland Hills. Is that right?

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wow. How do you know so much about me?

• 12:13Sam Fragoso?

  Mikey, I told you, I was up early. You have four siblings, one of them is a twin. Were you always, as a kid, perceptive of people? Like, were you attuned to their feelings and thinking about how they were and why they were doing what they were doing?

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. But I also feel like there was definitely a disconnect.

• 12:37Sam Fragoso?

  How do you mean?

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Because I could see and recognize, and I would try to interpret facial expressions or behavior. But there was always a disconnect between me really looking at someone, trying to interpret that, and then actually just getting it immediately. Like, if I'm looking at you right now and really trying to understand what you're doing, what you're thinking, that time has passed. Do you know what I mean? And like, a new moment has come. Yeah.

• 13:08Sam Fragoso?

  Now we're in another new moment.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  It's true. Yes.

• 13:12Sam Fragoso?

  Did you feel comfortable at school?

• 13:16Speaker 01

  No. I mean, I think maybe when I was really young, there were times in my life where I had a really good friend or was in a different place in my life where I felt more comfortable. But I think when I got a little older, like, school was always difficult for me. Just the way that I learn is not the way that a public school system was able to teach me.

• 13:39Sam Fragoso?

  What was the way that you learned best?

• 13:41Speaker 01

  I think just on my own time. I'm a very visual person, and I just need more time to digest information and really think about it and process it. And I think I get very. Uh, like over, I guess, maybe the word's overstimulated by like sound and like lots of things happening around me. So like if I'm at a party or something and there's like really loud music playing, it's really hard for me to have a conversation with someone. And so it's kind of like when I was in school, like I couldn't focus on anything because the whole time the teacher's just like shushing everyone. And I'm like, wait, what about the actual learning part of this? And so I ended up homeschooling myself.

• 14:23Sam Fragoso?

  So that was like around seventh grade, right?

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, I was like, my grades were better. Um, I was able to just, just actually learn. And then I had more time to, to do the thing I loved, which was horseback riding.

• 14:37Sam Fragoso?

  You, you said once about this period that my own sensitivity was very torturous for me and really difficult to deal with. What did you mean by that? Like, what did that look like?

• 14:51Speaker 01

  I mean, I've always been very, very sensitive, like almost to default, I think.

• 14:58Sam Fragoso?

  I made a show called Talk Easy, so I'm, I'm in the same boat as you.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Are you? You're a very sensitive person.

• 15:04Sam Fragoso?

  I mean, that's the, kind of the whole thing we do here.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think things have just always like affected me very, very deeply, like to a point where it was just like even hard for me to just like go through life. Like someone on the street would like look at me wrong or give me a nasty look and I would, I would cry because it was just so, it was like too much for me. Everything was too much, too overwhelming. The feeling was just like too big, you know, for even little, small situations. I mean, I had a friend a couple of years ago, like we kind of got into some argument and we, during this like two hour long conversation, she's like, you're too sensitive. You're just too sensitive and I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around

• 15:52Speaker 01

  you and you're gonna have to work on that. And I was like, you know, like my sensitivity is one of the things that I like appreciate about myself and that I like about myself. You know, maybe, maybe it's like, it's difficult for people to deal with sometimes, but I'd rather be overly sensitive and feel things deeply than not.

• 16:16Sam Fragoso?

  Right. To shut that off, like, how much would you not get to experience? Like, the highs of that are so high, and the lows are also low. When you were getting into horseback riding, you would go to a place called Foxfield.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:35Sam Fragoso?

  And it's my understanding that your grandmother was a horseback rider, your mother was a horseback rider. I would never consider getting on a horse personally, but I love that for you. Did you all love horseback riding for the same reason? Or were you drawn to it for other reasons than your grandmother and your mother?

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Well, you know, like, my, I have a family history of just horseback riders. And so my sort of distant cousin was like a cowboy, you know? He was the Marlboro man. So it's just sort of like in my family's blood, I think, in a way. And my, yeah, my grandmother rode horses, my mom rode. She grew up riding at the same barn that I rode at. And it was just kind of like, what, what I was supposed to do? But I was like, sitting on a horse before I could walk, you know?

• 17:29Sam Fragoso?

  And then at 14, you make some conscious decision to pivot out of that and into acting. Was that hard to, to give up?

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, it was so hard. It was a decision, I think, really the first big decision of my life that I made all on my own, without any influence.

• 17:49Sam Fragoso?

  Do you remember the day you decided?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  I do, yeah. I was coming back from a horse show. And for a while, I had been feeling, I don't know, not as like connected or drawn towards it anymore. I felt like it was more of a job as opposed to something that I wanted to do for fun. And I was like, we were driving back from a horse show and I started crying. And I told my mom I didn't want to ride anymore. And I think it was so shocking to her and confusing. And I had dedicated so much of my life to horseback riding and literally all of my life. And so it was, it was really, really painful. But I knew that I couldn't really do both.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  I was like, if I want to be an actress, I don't know. First of all, I don't even know how I'm going to do that because nobody in my family is in the industry. And I don't even know the first, first thing I would do. But if I'm going to do that, I think I have to give all of myself to it. And I knew that I would have to put horseback riding on the back burner.

• 18:56Sam Fragoso?

  When you decide to pivot into acting, it's your mom that would drive you to most of those auditions, right?

• 19:04Speaker 01

  All of them, yeah.

• 19:06Sam Fragoso?

  What were those car rides like going into Los Angeles? Entering a kind of unknown audition process for a role you may not get for a film you definitely don't know will be good.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  I don't even think I auditioned for films for, for years. I, we had no idea what to do. So, you know, my mom would drive me an hour into the city to take an acting class, random class she found somewhere online. Or, you know, to go to an audition for a short film at UCLA that a UCLA student was making. Like anything that we could find. And so there is this acting site called Actors Access where you can make your own profile. And you can submit yourself for like super low budget type. Do you know about this?

• 19:56Sam Fragoso?

  Of course, yeah, I've, I've directed short films and I've used Actors Access.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. And so I, I would just, my mom and I would like submit myself for random things. Nobody do this, but if you scroll to the bottom of my IMDB, you'll see some of those things, you know, where I just was able to kind of cut my teeth on something and experience what, what it was like.

• 20:20Sam Fragoso?

  You know what's amazing is that there are probably 20 filmmakers right now that were like, wait, Mikey Madison? She submitted through Actors Access to be in our movie and we didn't say yes.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  You know, I, I think about that sometimes. I think about like the hundred plus self tapes I've probably made.

• 20:42Sam Fragoso?

  How are you on self tapes?

• 20:45Speaker 01

  I think that there's a difference between acting and making a self tape. I mean, it's hard. It's, it's first of all, you're not in the room face to face with someone. And so you're not getting any kind of feedback, any, you can't look at their face and try to read their, their emotions and see what they're thinking. And so you're kind of just directing this scene yourself. You have to, you know, have good lighting, set the camera up, have a reader. And then you just send the audition off into the abyss and hope that something sticks. And most of the time it doesn't. You don't hear anything back. And so there's a lot of like anxiety involved for me for making self tapes. I haven't made one in a minute, but I mean, I've done

• 21:29Speaker 01

  all, I did, I do all of them with my mom.

• 21:32Sam Fragoso?

  Is she a good scene partner?

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Towards the end, like she got pretty good. Like she's like a good, kind of a good actress. And, um, you know, she has a really nice, sweet, soft voice. And so, but I think it was also like the safety of doing these with my mom. It was, I was never worried about like having to hurry up and you know, we were able to spend time together. So she liked doing the tapes too. She told me. I think she liked them.

• 21:58Sam Fragoso?

  We'll, we'll, we'll fact check that later with her. We'll give her a call.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's, self tapes are painful, man, because

• 22:06Sam Fragoso?

  They're embarrassing. It's not, no, no one feels good about it.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Well, the embarrassing part for me is just the slate. Do you know what I mean? The audition slate where you have to say, hi, I'm Mikey Madison. Um, I am blah, blah, blah, and I live in Los Angeles. Yeah.

• 22:23Sam Fragoso?

  How tall are you? Five foot four, five?

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Technically, I'm like five, three and a half, but I just say I'm five, four. Because it's like, if I say five, three, then that feels like a lie. And I don't want to say I'm five, three and a half because I'm not like 10 years old. You know what I mean? So

• 22:40Sam Fragoso?

  The only time you say half is like when you're, I'm 10 and a half years old. I'm gonna, I'm about to turn 11.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I say that.

• 22:48Sam Fragoso?

  Actually, though, at 15 and a half, you got your first big part on the show Better Things.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:56Sam Fragoso?

  Is that right?

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Yes, I did.

• 22:58Sam Fragoso?

  That's called a segue.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a good one, too.

• 23:01Sam Fragoso?

  Thank you, thank you. It's some of my finest work.

• 23:08Sam Fragoso?

  Got it. Sometimes I do jokes just for me, but it's nice to know that you're also enjoying them a little bit.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:15Sam Fragoso?

  I love that show so much and I sat with Pamela last year on the podcast.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 23:22Sam Fragoso?

  When you started working on that, this is a show written and created mostly by women, mostly by her. The set was predominantly run by women. Did you know in the moment that you were part of something that was kind of special and singular? And not exactly like most of Hollywood?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Well, I had actually seen some of Pamela's work on the show Louie. So she had directed and written a lot, most of the episodes, or directed some and written most of them. And so I knew her work and I thought it was really spectacular. And I just thought the show was interesting. I mean, I had auditioned for lots of pilots during that pilot season. And hers was, it was, there was just something different about it. You know, the writing was like pretty edgy and provocative and I always liked it. And I remember Googling a photo of Pamela and I was like, oh, I could totally be her daughter. That could work. I could, I could do that. And it just worked out.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  And, you know, the show, I mean, it was like a dream come true to, to not only like book a pilot, but for the show to get picked up. Like, I never thought that that would happen for me. And, and then the show ended up being so special in lots of different ways. It was the first show on FX with like an all female cast. And at the time, that was really, really special and I recognized that it was special.

• 24:49Sam Fragoso?

  So you start the show at fifteen and a half. And when you're done with it, I think you're like twenty-two, twenty-three?

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:59Sam Fragoso?

  You essentially come of age on camera. And I heard you say once that Max, quote, "always seemed so far away from who I am." And the life she lived has always been so different from mine. Did you find that being able to play Max, this kind of like rambunctious rebellious teenager, allowed you to access feelings and experiences that you may not have been having while you yourself were a teenager?

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've kind of always felt that way. Like, the characters I've played have often been really like just a big departure from who I am. But I think that playing Max, I mean, she's such a volatile, like deeply emotional, in an instant, you know, kind of person.

• 25:52Speaker 05

  Could you get pot for me? What? Gabby Schuster's mom told her if she ever wanted to smoke pot, she'd get it for her. Don't you want me to have clean, organic pot? You should want me to have good nugs. Good nugs?

• 26:06Speaker 05

  I don't even know what to say. How about this? No, no, Max, I'm not gonna get you pot. It's so easy, Mom. Can we just go back to the regular hard things like school supplies? Seriously? These things are normal, but you should be ashamed of them. You're my mom. I want you to know if I have sex or if I want to get high. Ah, no, hide things from me, please.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  And so for me to play a character like that, it was, it was fun. It was, it was like a totally different version of myself. But it definitely taught me a lot, taught me a lot about acting. I was kind of learning that acting is about like building a character and less about just like saying lines natural, in a natural way. Because I really had no idea what I was doing. I didn't know anything. I started as a girl and I left literally as a woman. And it's pretty bizarre. I mean, I think, yeah, also to watch the younger girls on the show grow up, completely grow up, was truly, truly strange.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  For them, it's, I think, the two younger sisters, it was much more of a, the growing up was like more visible. And for me, it was, I was like this, I've been the same height since I was like 13 or something. So for me, the growing up was like, it was internal in a way. But it is weird. I feel like it would be strange to watch yourself grow up in that way.

• 27:38Sam Fragoso?

  After the break, more from Mikey Madison.

• 27:52Sam Fragoso?

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• 29:23Sam Fragoso?

  You said that that show taught you about creating the foundation of a character. Like, it's not just about saying the lines of a character. It's about building them out. Tell me how that informed your experience making Nora, creating this character. From, from the beginning with Sean.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, working with Sean was different than any experience I've ever had before. Every job I've had in some way has taught me something. Or it's helped me to grow as an actor, or even just as a person. Like, the more life experience I feel like I've gotten has inherently just made me deeper as a person, deeper as an actor. And so, you know, Sean wanted to be really collaborative. And that was never an experience I've had before. Like, he wanted me to be a big part of making this movie. Like, being, being a part of, sort of watching him write the script to the end.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  I mean, to, to the last day of editing, when he's sending me voice memos, telling me where he's at in the process. And so, I mean, I think on better things, I sort of learned first what it was like to be on a set. How to develop my work ethic, just how to, how to be a hard worker. I think it taught me a little bit about emotional accessibility. And then, you know, I mean, I remember doing Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I was nineteen and I'm working with, you know, all these incredible actors. And I'm watching, like, Austin Butler. And watching him, it would kind of like opened my mind up to a different kind of acting that I had never seen firsthand before.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  I'd never seen an actor emotionally prepare in that particular way. Like, I could see, I could see it. And I was like, that's so interesting. I should do that.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  I should learn to utilize that more, or, or understand a way that that could help me.

• 31:24Sam Fragoso?

  And Yeah, so without talking about his process for that movie, what did you do for Enora that was maybe a little bit inspired by his approach?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  You know, I, I mean, there's lots of, like, there's emotional scenes in the film. There's lots of Fight scenes, lots of, you know, you you pick up a scene in the middle and you start filming. It's like, OK, well, how do I get back to this place where maybe my character's in a state of panic? Or she's hyperventilating, or she's gonna cry, or any of that. And so it's just finding ways to like, get in touch with your body, or like, get your heart rate up, or tapping on certain parts of your body, or screaming, or yelling, or it's like, all these like, silly things, just to do them, to get yourself to that place. Substituting things from my real life into the film, just emotional preparation like that,

• 32:20Speaker 01

  really trying to have things in my arsenal to to be able to pull out if I needed them. Or, you know, like, my character is a very, like, there are there are points in the film where she's really in charge of her sexuality and very like, confident in that way. And that it is not me, and she, I mean, she's a sex professional. And so it's like, how do I get to that place where I am able to portray that in in an honest way, where I genuinely feel confident and at ease in these situations? And so it's about like, controlling your breath, or thinking about certain things, or like, I don't know, trying to walk differently, trying to imagine yourself as something else, um.

• 33:05Sam Fragoso?

  How did the expertise of Andrea Wehrhorn inform your approach? She's a Canadian woman, a former escort. She wrote a book called Modern Horror that I think was formative in in creating this text.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, I mean, I read, I read multiple memoirs that Sean sent me during my sort of preparation process. And hers was one that I just really connected with. She had this kind of like wicked sense of humor and was able to poke fun at herself and other people and. I just really liked what she had to say and I felt, you know, I feel like this is someone that my character could relate to or that my character would be friends with or that my character would admire or like. And so, you know, reading her memoir and just sort of like post-it noting and dog earring all of her entire book, it was, there was some sort of like cheekiness to her that I liked.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  And, you know, she also talks about like enjoying sex and being really good at her job. And I was like, well, I want that for my character.

• 34:10Sam Fragoso?

  That comes across, like, I think that comes across in the movie, the cheekiness and the humor of the sex scenes.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  That's one of the things I really like about this film and Sean's perspective. It's kind of just the brilliance of him as a filmmaker is he's able to take a scene like that, that could in another film be like really serious and slow and flip it on its head and make it something totally different that you wouldn't expect. And there's a lot of like joy in those sex scenes.

• 34:39Sam Fragoso?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  There's a lot of like joy and humor and playfulness and like-

• 34:45Sam Fragoso?

  I'd say it's mostly that.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:47Sam Fragoso?

  I mean, it's mostly that. And I, I just think, you know, we're talking sort of at the end of your campaign, I guess you want to call it, like, it's kind of a gross word to use, but-

• 35:00Speaker 01

  It's the word everyone uses.

• 35:01Sam Fragoso?

  It's what we're in. And in that, like, the conversation around intimacy coordinators has come up over and over and over. And I just want to talk about it in a way that is honest and human. And I've seen a lot of misinformation out there and I just want to frame it for people because some of the discourse, I think, has just been insane. So in making the movie, Sean, you, Samantha Kwan, the whole team, you guys are all on the same page from the beginning, creating this character. You're offered an intimacy coordinator and you say, what?

• 35:40Speaker 01

  You know, this this conversation is one that I've had since since May, since the film was premiered at Cannes. And so, you know, I've talked about it a lot. I was offered, one, Sean and Sammy Kwan said, hey, if you would like to use an intimacy coordinator, we can absolutely do that. And, you know, to be clear, I wasn't, I wasn't saying no to an intimacy coordinator for the entirety of the film, like the entire cast.

• 36:08Sam Fragoso?

  For the entirety of your career?

• 36:10Speaker 01

  No, of course. It was a decision I made only for myself, not for anybody else. It was a decision I made with my team, with my co-stars. It wasn't a decision I made like alone in a in a room. It was it was made with with people I trust. And ultimately, like, my experience making this film with Sean and shooting all of those intimate scenes was really positive. And I'd never done anything like that before. And I'm so glad that it was with Sean and Sammy Kwan because because I had fun filming those scenes, frankly.

• 36:49Sam Fragoso?

  And that comes across, like, that's so apparent. And I think is also being lost in this larger conversation.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's it's it's a delicate subject and it's a nuanced conversation. And I think that it's a conversation that should be approached differently for each particular situation, each film. And, you know, just for my specific film, I made a choice that I was most comfortable with, just for me. But, you know, in the future, if working with an intimacy coordinator feels like the right decision, then I really look forward to that. And, you know, then then that would be great.

• 37:25Sam Fragoso?

  I'm sure. And and by the way, I want to also specify, like, the film had a closed set?

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I said, it was it was a good experience. I'm I'm very lucky. And I I do recognize that that's not always the case.

• 37:38Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  And so it's really important to have people, professional people who are able to bridge that gap or or or, I don't know, be be be someone where you can go to to feel comfortable and safe. But ultimately, I really trusted my director and, you know, we we protected each other and we showed up for each other. And, yeah, I'm I'm proud of the way that we shot the film, I have to say.

• 38:03Sam Fragoso?

  And I think what it resulted in is a movie and a performance that is just so. Fantastic and vulnerable and like sex scenes like sex can be awkward and uncomfortable and nerve wracking. And I think social media, which is where these conversations are had, is just like not equipped to handle the thorniness and the idiosyncrasies of this conversation.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I, I think that it comes from like a place of protectiveness because like I said, I mean, we've, everyone has heard horror stories, you know, of things that have happened in, in the past. But ultimately, like me saying that I felt like it was a really positive experience, I think should just be enough. But, oh, man, I just love Sean. Isn't he the best? I just, I just adore him. And Sammy Kwan too, like they've, they've just become some of my favorite people ever. And I keep asking them, I'm like, hey, are you guys sick of me yet? Like, just tell me when you're sick of me.

• 39:10Sam Fragoso?

  The answer is no. I can, I can confirm it's definitely no.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Well, they're just, I just, I just love them.

• 39:16Sam Fragoso?

  What's amazing is you're 25, right? About to be 26 in March. It's funny, like you're the age that these sites, these like Twitter, TikTok, or like that's what, that's the age of the people. But now that we're at the end of this campaign, like you're not on any social media. How have you made sense of this period from May to now?

• 39:41Speaker 01

  I, I honestly feel like quite untethered from the earth. I feel like I'm sort of just like floating around and this whole experience has been so interesting and.

• 39:53Sam Fragoso?

  What does interesting mean?

• 39:55Speaker 01

  I know, because like I keep, I keep using the word interesting, but I genuinely, there's no, there's not like a profound enough word for me to use. It's, it's, everything is new. I think it's hard for me to separate myself from it because I'm just in it right now. And so I feel exactly the same as I've always felt. It's just other people around me that have been acting different.

• 40:22Sam Fragoso?

  Right before Better Things ended in 2022, there was an afternoon where you had to do some ADR.

• 40:31Sam Fragoso?

  And in your session, there's a moment, I believe, where you saw Pamela recording lines for the last season of the show. It's basically like the end of your time. And in that session, you got like really emotional with her and like started crying.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  How do you know about this? Did she tell you?

• 40:59Speaker 01

  But I don't think I've ever, have I, have I ever told anybody this?

• 41:04Sam Fragoso?

  Yes.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  I did. Oh, gosh, yeah.

• 41:06Sam Fragoso?

  But I, also, I love Pamela and I, I love that show so much. And I was thinking about how you're fifteen and a half when you started. Like you, like you called yourself a girl in the beginning, a woman at the end. And, and it was an end of an era when you saw her in the booth, recording those lines. And I'm wondering, has there been a moment on the road for Enora? Where you've had a similar, all the emotions coming up reaction? Like everything rushing back, the totality of this?

• 41:39Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's happened quite yet. I mean, I, I remember like, I mean, I remember like saying goodbye to one of my co-stars. And I mean, that was so heartbroke, heartbreaking for me because going to different countries and you become, you know, best friends with these people that you work with. And for me, that was like a culmination of so much. And that was, that was the most heartbreaking. And so there's a part of me that wonders like, at the end of March, I'm like, wait, is it gonna be really over now? Like, is like Sean's still gonna be my, my best friend? I'm like, I'm like, wait, I just don't, I don't want it. I don't want there to be like a culmination.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  I want it to keep going forever because, which isn't possible, but I do. Because I've always loved this film and I feel like it's, it's just, it's one of the best things that's ever happened to me. So I don't want it to end, but maybe, I don't know, maybe I'll have some big breakdown at some point. We'll see what happens.

• 42:41Sam Fragoso?

  Now I feel bad because this podcast does have to end pretty soon. But I want to keep going just so that we can, we can keep talking. We can string it out for as long as possible.

• 42:53Sam Fragoso?

  My last thing for you, I guess I'm thinking about that relea- that, that release, especially in relation to the final scene in the film. And I think by now, most of the people listening to this have seen the movie and, and know what I'm talking about. But the release of that scene for your character, after two hours of trying desperately to convince herself, and really everyone else, that this new life she's imagined is not only her reality, but her future. And I want to sit with that final scene because it's my understanding that it took a few days to shoot it.

• 43:34Sam Fragoso?

  And when you did, bringing it back to voice memos, you played a voicemail from your father that you turn to in, in moments like that. What did he say to you that brought you back?

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, hearing you sort of describe what Annie goes through, it makes me emotional because it's so, I, I just still, I still feel for her so much. And I love her as a, as a character. And, um, yeah, I, I mean, I think I just, I was so stuck in, in the character's mindset. And she's a very, she's very tough, you know, she puts on this, she's scrappy, but she puts on this sort of protective, tough, tough layer over everything. But she is really like a very vulnerable person.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  And so I was like, almost had like given up in a sense before shooting that scene. Like I was very emotional, but I was like, I like almost didn't want to do it because I was like, I remember I stepped out of the car and I was like, I'm just gonna talk to Sammy, Sammy Kwan. And I was talking to her and I was crying and I was like, I can't cry. I was like, I just don't think the scene's gonna be good. And she was like, but you're crying right now. And she was like, okay, well, I mean, you know Sammy, you've met her and she's one of the kindest people in the world. And so we just kinda, we were talking to each other and she shared something just really like beautiful and generous with me to try to, you know,

• 45:15Speaker 01

  get me to the place so I could stop protecting and covering up the vulnerability and actually just let it out. And I was like, you know, maybe I should do the same thing. Maybe I need to take something personal from my life and use it, you know, like we're talking about that sort of emotional preparation. And, and I do have this voicemail from my dad. He sent me years ago.

• 45:42Sam Fragoso?

  And when and why did he send it?

• 45:45Speaker 01

  I remember he sent it to me. I was on location like for the first time ever, had been away from home for the longest time I've ever been away. And I had, you know, for a couple of years previously, just gone through some personal, like really difficult things. And he sent me a voicemail that was describing him driving through, like driving to work. And I feel embarrassed all of a sudden.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Driving to work and like he sees this, he's saying how, my dad's very like poetic man, sees the sun like rising from the clouds and just how he thinks it's gonna be a really.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  I don't talk about about exactly what I don't think I've talked about what he says, but just that there's a lot of hopefulness that he sees in the future for me. And so I listened to it with um with Sean and Yura. And I think it just was able to re-ground us to a certain place and very, very, you know, vulnerable and emotional. And I think it was just it brought brought me back to a to the place I needed to be for the character, for her to have that emotional release that I wanted her to have so badly. And, you know, I wanted her to have her moment of catharsis. And also the audience too, I think, needs that because you're watching her this whole

• 47:22Speaker 01

  time and you're like, why, how isn't she, how isn't she breaking? Like, I know that she's in pain, but like, why, when is she gonna break? And I think she finally is able to communicate something that she's been feeling. She just does it without any words. I love that scene.

• 47:40Sam Fragoso?

  I love that he said that.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  He's a very sweet, very kind person.

• 47:46Sam Fragoso?

  You know, I remember probably around the same time you you probably got that message, what, you were 20, 19 or 20?

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Something like that, yeah.

• 47:55Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, yeah. I remember I was in college. I was going through a very hard time and my dad left a kind of similar voicemail to me. And he said something to the effect of, whatever you're feeling right now, whatever it is that you're going through, it's temporary. That's the only certain thing, is that it's temporary. And I remember just walking on air after that and feeling kind of unburdened and knowing that what I was going through was tough and painful and not insignificant, but also not final. And it sounds like your dad kind of offered you a similar sentiment.

• 48:38Sam Fragoso?

  Now that you're here, now that he was right.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:41Sam Fragoso?

  On your computer, there's a Google document with a bunch of actors and directors that you want to work with.

• 48:50Sam Fragoso?

  Tell me what you would love to do. Like, if we were to talk in five years, what would you like to say? Oh, wow, I can't believe I did that.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  You know, I, the reason I made the Google Doc is because I've written down names of people I've wanted to work with in the past, and I've worked with them. And so I do think that there is power in

• 49:10Sam Fragoso?

  Manifesting.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  I really do. And I'm not being like, ooh, ooh. You know, I really do think that there is something powerful about, you know, putting something down. And then I think, yes, subconsciously, you're, you're working towards that. But I would love to do a foreign film. That's something I would really like to do. Uh, I, I don't know. I'd love to like experiment with different time periods or like universes. Um, but in terms of specific people, like I say, I say it sometimes. And then sometimes I feel like, what if I say it and then?

• 49:47Sam Fragoso?

  You're jinxing it?

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I know I don't have that much power in the world, which is what my mom always says. I'm like, don't, Mom, you're gonna jinx it. She's like, you're not that powerful. But there's still, there's still a part of me that feels, what if it is? But I have to keep reminding myself to like, hold on to certain memories that are happening right now, to just keep, keep them in my head forever. Because I don't want them to like disappear and I'll forget about it. But in five years, I mean, there's a lot I'd like to, like, hopefully I do with my career. Like, I want to just keep making movies. That's what I love in any, any capacity. Just being a part of filmmaking, like, you know, especially in the way that Sean makes movies.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  You know, to just be a part of making something like that again. Yeah.

• 50:36Sam Fragoso?

  I will say, it's meant a lot. That you've shared as much as you have and like shown up. And I'm just imagining like the character being returned to her home, life outside of that car, back at that house, below the train tracks. And you now, through your career, from Better Things to Enora. I just can't wait to see what happens on the other side.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 51:06Sam Fragoso?

  Mikey Madison, thank you for the time.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 52:15Sam Fragoso?

  If you enjoyed today's episode with Mikey, be sure to leave us a review on Apple. Give us five stars on Spotify. If you want to go above and beyond, share the program on social media, tag us at Talk Easy Pod. All of this really does help our team continue making this program each and every Sunday. I want to give a special thanks this week to the teams at Neon, Perception PR, and Universal Pictures. I also want to thank Sean Baker, and of course, our guest, Mikey Madison. Anora is currently available to watch on VOD and in select theaters across the country. To learn more about Mikey and the film, visit our website at TalkEasyPod.com.

• 52:59Sam Fragoso?

  For more episodes like this one, I'd recommend Sebastian Stan, Pamela Adlon, and Maya Hawke. To hear those and more Lemonada podcasts, listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. If you'd like to subscribe to Lemonada Premium for bonus content, hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com.

• 53:25Sam Fragoso?

  Lastly, be sure to follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram at Talk Easy Pod. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janix Bravo. Today's talk was edited by Matt Sasaki and mixed by Andrew Mastola. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Illustrations by Chris Shannoy. Research assistance is by Pierce Harvey. I also want to thank City Box in New York City and Paul Jackman at Soho Broadcast in London. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada, and I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. We'll be back next week with a brand new

• 54:08Sam Fragoso?

  episode. Until then, stay safe and so long.

• 54:22Speaker 06

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together. We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats. I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there? There were 32,000 pounds of them. 32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats. That's it. Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.

• 54:52Speaker 04

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