Fei-Fei Li: In 10 Years There Will Be Only 2 Kinds of Workers

Dr. Fei-Fei Li created ImageNet — the dataset that triggered the deep learning revolution. Now she runs World Labs, where she just raised $1 billion to teach AI something it still can't do: understand physical space. She was named Time Person of the Year in 2025 and won the Queen Elizabeth Prize for Engineering. David Rogier founded MasterClass in 2015 on the idea that everyone should have access to world-class teachers. He has an MBA from Stanford and now builds all his own work tools with Claude Code instead of buying software — including a to-do list app that auto-deletes anything sitting on the list for more than a day and a half. In this episode, we get into what AI can already do and what it still can't, why the two loudest takes on AI — that it'll save the world, and that it'll take all the jobs — are both wrong, and what your kids' schooling and your own career actually look like in 10 years. We cover: Why Fei-Fei Li says "the cost of intelligence goes to zero" is an irresponsible claim — and what human intelligence actually includes beyond languageSpatial intelligence: the four things AI still can't do (understand, reason about, generate, and interact with 3D space) — and why World Labs is betting $1B on itThe barbell effect in the workforce: why being "decent" at anything isn't enough anymore, and the two roles that will thrive — top 1% specialists and high-agency generalistsWhy AI tutoring delivers the same learning in 60% less time — and why the real obstacle to changing education isn't the technologyDavid's full CEO stack: custom apps he built himself, "Davidify" — his own AI clone he gave his team — and why he stopped buying softwareThe one thing to do when an employee is scared to try AI: sit down with them, not send a YouTube linkWhat the job of product manager looks like today vs. five years ago — and why Fei-Fei only hires PMs who are riding the waveFei-Fei's advice for non-tech professionals: find someone under 25 and let them show you their world for a weekendHow long until AI handles the laundry — Fei-Fei's actual estimateLinks: 📌Subscribe to my free newsletter where I go deeper on AI tools, career strategies, and building with AI: https://siliconvalleygirl.beehiiv.com/subscribe?utm_source=spotify&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=futureproof-sub&utm_content=FeiFeiLi https://siliconvalleygirl.beehiiv.com/subscribe?utm_source=spotify&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=futureproof-sub&utm_content=FeiFeiLi 🔗 Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/siliconvalleygirl/⁠⁠ https://www.instagram.com/siliconvalleygirl/%E2%81%A0 𝕏 : ⁠⁠https://x.com/siliconvalleymm⁠⁠ https://x.com/siliconvalleymm%E2%81%A0 💼 LinkedIn: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/marinamogilko⁠⁠ https://www.linkedin.com/in/marinamogilko%E2%81%A0 📌 My Companies & Products: ⁠⁠https://Marinamogilko.co https://Marinamogilko.co

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  You are running companies these days, multiple. What are you seeing? What are the biggest shifts happening?

• 1:05Speaker 03

  My world is very much AI. So I think the... I get to experience really the cutting edge of where the technology is pushing. It's just, I cannot tell you how exciting this moment is. The technologists, the entrepreneurs, and including product people, business people are all recognizing this just really sea change of how AI can now be used to rethink business, to rethink applications. And, you know, it just feels... I've been Silicon Valley for 17 years. The energy is just, I've never seen this before. Even 10 years ago,

• 1:50Speaker 03

  I did not feel that level of excitement.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  That's amazing. And I feel like everyone's working more. David, would you agree with that? What's happening in your company?

• 2:00Speaker 04

  It's a gap that's widening and increasing. If somebody's using AI, they're able to get tremendously more done and they feel a sense of agency that they never had before. If they're still nervous to or haven't been trained to, you are seeing that that gap increase. One of the most interesting things I think that you talk about is that it seems like the world is split between all this is godlike and gonna have a save the world. And the other half of people are like, this is the this is the devil and gonna destroy everything.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Very polarized society right now.

• 2:41Speaker 04

  And I think one of the things that you talk about and have shown is that that is not a healthy approach. Or maybe isn't the best designed approach. And that if you actually, you should share this more with me, but if you actually try to figure out what are the best aspects of it? And how do I use it to actually help people? We might be able to get the best of both worlds. You asked earlier about tools.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:06Speaker 04

  And I think I was thinking about it. If you asked me like a couple of months ago, I would have listed, you know, Claude and chat GPT and all the big tools. I have now found the most of the apps I use, I built. And I built them with Claude code or with Codex.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Good point.

• 3:23Speaker 04

  And I think this, first of all, that's like amazing to me because now is like if my was if like my CEO stack is all apps that I built.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  It's called Davidify, right? I've read something like you've built your own custom.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  A Davidify.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Davidify.

• 3:39Speaker 04

  And I gave to my team, which is like if you're trying to write something in my own voice.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:43Speaker 04

  Like here are a bunch of emails that I wrote and things I said.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  Oh, nice.

• 3:46Speaker 04

  But even my to my productivity apps, my to do list app I built. And and it is, I have it that if it's on the list for over two, over a day and a half, it can't stay on the list. So it forces me to either decide that I'm gonna do it now. I'm gonna dump it because it's actually not an important thing, or I'm gonna pass it off to a person on my team. And this just allows you to create all these apps for the way that you think and work. And so back to our agency point, like you're able to create the workflows and tools any. Anything that you now want. So now it's about what's the motivation to do it?

• 4:29Speaker 04

  What's the skills to go do it? But the cost of do of making an app drop from, you know, months to like a weekend.

• 4:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, that's a very good point.

• 4:39Marina Mogilko?

  If an employee comes to you and says like, I really want to start using AI, what would you tell them? Like, where do they start? What is the task? Because I've heard some of the entrepreneurs ask their employees to just vibe go their dashboard, for example. Do you have like a go to thing?

• 4:52Speaker 04

  I don't like vibe coding a dashboard because when somebody vibe vibes codes a dashboard, it's only in the front end of the dashboard. It's never tied back to the actual inputs. So like, it's great for like an hour, but then it like stops working because they haven't tied it back to everything most of the time. When they want to learn AI, I have found if they're asking that, if they're asking that question, they are hesitant to try it on their own. There's something that's holding them back. And so what I do in those cases is like, and like, sometimes I worry it's just like a waste of my time, but I've learned it's not. I will sit down with them or in groups of two or three,

• 5:35Speaker 04

  and I will show them a basic task, like deep, like on research. And like, I'll walk them through it, like step by step. And in some ways, I feel like that's a waste of my time because I'm like, you could watch a YouTube video on this. That's way more effective than I am. But I found is there's something about me doing it with them that then there's something that like unlocks that they then go soar on their own. So I don't know if it's somebody walking or if they feel forced to do it because I'm the CEO and I'm making them do it, or that like, but then the act of walking them through it, then they are unlocked to go do it and they do lots more things.

• 6:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I thank you, David, for really bringing the complexity of reality. That is something that I observe and frankly, I'm concerned because I think the public discourse of AI is so polarized. We have to look at the upside. We have to look at the downside. But the public discourse right now is not like that. It's either total utopia. It's gonna, you know, save the world.

• 6:37Speaker 04

  We aren't gonna have to work anymore.

• 6:39Marina Mogilko?

  Universal basic income.

• 6:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, we're just gonna get paid to chill.

• 6:42Speaker 03

  Or, you know, this this thing about FAI, it's so bad. It's gonna just displace all jobs. It's gonna.

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Take away all human agency. And these two extremes very dangerous. I genuinely believe it's a technology. That means it's a tool. It's a very powerful tool. But it's a tool that humans can wield to help make things better. But we also have to be very, very vigilant about how to use the tool. We teach kids how to use tools from fire to to knives to um you know, the internet. Now we have to learn that as a species, as a society. And the most important discourse is missing. And that's the discourse of the nuanced middle.

• 7:37Marina Mogilko?

  Hmm.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  Is what this tool is? How can we use it for good? How should we avoid the pitfalls? And how do we go forward as a civilization with this civilizational tool?

• 7:53Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah, and then it's a revolutionary tool. I feel like it's the it's the first tool that is so industrial revolution automated our physical labor, right? Here, we're kind of automating our intelligence. And this is why I think a lot of people are scared because they're like, oh, I thought university guaran- not guarantees, but it's like a path to career. Now, if the cost of intelligence goes to zero, I don't know, like, what's gonna happen? What do you think?

• 8:19Speaker 04

  One things I learned from from from you was that right now, when we talk about AI, it is language based. That, to use your phrase, is like lossy. It it is, you aren't gonna learn how to drive a car with words. You aren't gonna learn how to shoot a basketball with words. And so I think we're still in a like V one of AI. And I think this fear is a little overhyped because AI, it's doesn't have a set of its own values. It's our val- it's our values. And so I think that means an opportunity for us to design and shape it. Do you want to share your thing? I thought it was really neat, the thing you did with the doctors and they're washing their hands.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 9:36Speaker 06

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body with a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 10:04Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, so I agree with David. First of all, industrial revolution did not automate labor. It, uh, it made labor more efficient. It scaled up labor. It did, um, it has shift of the labor market, but it did not automate labor. And also, we cannot imply labor is not intelligent. That is really, really a wrong premise. You know, physical labor, cognitive labor, emotional labor. Human activity is deeply intertwined with human intelligence, which is still very much an ounce of mystery in, in nature. We don't know the depth and nuance

• 10:48Speaker 03

  of, uh, human intelligence. So, uh, claiming, I know you're not claiming, but anyone out there claiming that, uh, intelligence, the cost of intelligence goes to zero, it's just an irresponsible claim because human intelligence is so deep. As David said, in addition to, uh, the more familiar language intelligence, we also have, uh, uh, perceptual intelligence.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  Intelligence, physical intelligence, emotional intelligence. Uh, we don't have a grasp on creativity where that comes from. Everybody's creativity comes from different parts of their, not only their brain, but their holistic uh uh life. So I think we need to be very careful of these reductive claims. I do agree that language intelligence, the L L Ms, the derivatives of L L Ms are incredibly powerful. You know, they're helping business intelligence, they're helping uh software engineering, they're helping deductive logical reasoning and even deeper tasks.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  The uh we're we're now seeing agentic use of language and software intelligence. All this is in in important, but it is nuanced. It is uh it's complex. It's a lot of it can be powerfully collaborative with human intelligence. But I would not use words like automating human intelligence or intelligence goes to zero. I am very concerned about that kind of rhetoric.

• 12:33Marina Mogilko?

  The exact rhetoric that's causing people to be so anti-AI. Cause what they see, they see headlines of mass layoffs and like, we don't need you anymore, that type of stuff. And this is what's causing this negativity.

• 12:45Speaker 04

  But the answer isn't in those cases to say, I'm gonna avoid using AI or that I'm not gonna use it. I think the answer is you grab the tool and then you figure out how I'm gonna design it better or how I'm gonna improve, I'm gonna I'm gonna improve the tool. Or some, you're working hospitals. If you take, if you take a job, a job is actually like a whole set of tasks. And I think one of your arguments is there's some tasks that you do in your job that you probably don't like. Your example I remember was a nurse has to chart all their notes.

• 13:18Marina Mogilko?

  Doctors.

• 13:19Speaker 04

  And and doctors. I have never met a nurse that's like, you know, the job, the part of my job I love the most.

• 13:24Marina Mogilko?

  Charting.

• 13:25Speaker 04

  Is charting.

• 13:26Marina Mogilko?

  Yes.

• 13:26Speaker 04

  It's like, that is not why they got into the profession field. So I think the avoidance is the wrong way, but I also think, I agree with you. I think it will, if we look at any technological shift. It's always ended up in net more jobs. The issue is just who gets those, who is it that actually gets those jobs? But the people who don't get those jobs are the people who do not adapt to it. Yeah. Right? And if you don't adapt, the outcomes are very bad. So if you look at the past with the advent of the computer, of the spreadsheet, what happens if you don't adapt is you lose your job, your lifetime income drops by over a fifth,

• 14:09Speaker 04

  and your mortality rate in the first year doubles. Like, it actually hurts your health. That's crazy, Scott. And so the answer isn't to go into a hole, it's to push yourself to explore and improve the tools.

• 14:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I totally agree with David. I think some of the words we talked about deserve to be highlighted. You use the word agency. We talk about collaboration and empowerment. I think that's it, that's the core meaning of any technology, including a so-called god-like technology like AI, is it should be human-centered. And what does it mean? Human-centered is just a phrase. In the, to me, the simplest but the most profound meaning of human-centeredness is really empowerment to humanity, to, to, including individuals, communities, and society.

• 15:08Speaker 03

  And that is the meaning of this technology. Which brings up this point that David said is that it's a time of change. Time of change could be a time of loss. Loss of old habits. Loss of comfort that we were familiar with for the past decades. Loss of sense of steadiness.

• 15:34Speaker 03

  But that's also a time of opportunity. It's an opportunity for what's coming next. It's an opportunity for what we can make better. And how do you cross that boundary between the time of confusion and loss to time of uh uh of opportunity? As an individual, it is really a responsibility of each one of us to learn, embrace, upskill, be intellectually open about this opportunity. And that goes to the core of every human journey, whether you are a K twelve student or you're already a professional. We have to embrace this together.

• 16:19Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah, but also to your point of change, it's happening so fast, faster than ever. Can you tell me like if we take AI today, what type of tasks it can do already? What is still very human and what's gonna happen in a year? So how fast is it moving?

• 16:36Speaker 04

  I mean, I think in education, it's having a tremendous impact. The biggest obstacle, I'll share. So we know from the last sixty years that the best way for somebody to learn is one-on-one instruction. So the question has to be asked, why do we sit in classrooms of twenty people, of three hundred people? It's simply cost. It is too expensive to provide a doctorly to every person in the world, even though that would be amazing.

• 17:06Marina Mogilko?

  That would be awesome.

• 17:10Speaker 04

  And so with AI, though, from the work that's been done in the last couple of years, we now know that AI can provide that personal level of instruction that is almost as good as that. It is.

• 17:28Speaker 04

  So much better than learning in a classroom than reading just a book on it. So then the question, and now you're able to provide that same education, the one where you sat in a, in an elementary school classroom for $12,000 a year. You're now, or, or a school for $80,000 a year, once you're an undergrad, you're able to provide that same education for about a hundred dollars. So the question has to be asked, when are we going to see that, that change in our own education? I think the biggest obstacle is not the, the tech. The biggest obstacle is the institutions that are afraid of the, afraid of that change. But I think what's going to happen, we know that if you use AI to learn,

• 18:12Speaker 04

  you're able to learn the same things in 60% less time. So if school says, I'm going to ban AI, I'm going to ban my kids from using AI, and another school allows them to use AI in a structured way, those kids that use AI are going to be far ahead of the kids that don't. Now, that's not a replacement for everything. You still want the in-person interaction, all the social bonds. But I think you're going to start to see a divergence in kids where one group that is open to AI is learning at a much faster rate than everyone else. And I think that's bad. And so I think it's not a tech issue, but I think what's going to happen is those schools

• 18:54Speaker 04

  that do not adapt in 10 years, they're going to be, they aren't going to exist because they're going to be so far behind.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  And also their world will be changing so fast because of AI, like what David said. A part of it, they should be changing. I also adamantly believe every school, every classroom should embrace AI. Every student should be embracing AI. But I also believe that we have a collective responsibility to include them, especially the teachers and educator, educational administrators in this discourse of AI and, and show them what is a viable. Path that um maintains the goal of education. The goal of education is not a tool.

• 19:44Speaker 03

  The goal of education is not closed book or open book exams. The goal of education is not standardized test scores. The goal of education is is uh building humans.

• 19:57Marina Mogilko?

  Um hum.

• 19:57Speaker 03

  And so that every individual is a meaningful contributor of their community and society and lead to a meaningful life. And this AI should not be taking any any of these fundamentals away. But AI should help to achieve this goal much better, much more effectively. And and this polarized, extremely simplified binary conversation about AIs for cheating or not, uh closed book, take away AI. Uh it is just not where we should be. We should be looking at

• 20:36Speaker 03

  how we empower teachers, how we empower students, how we restructure our classrooms, how we rethink about examinations, how we rethink about standardized tests, how we rethink about college adminis- uh admissions, how we rethink about uh resource distribution. There is a technology that's lowering costs and barriers. So how we can resource our inner cities, our rural areas, uh you know, globally, global souths. These are really important, more important topics of AI and education.

• 21:16Marina Mogilko?

  Absolutely.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  That we're we're missing that conversation.

• 21:19Marina Mogilko?

  You know what I think will help this conversation? Because when I'm thinking about my kids' education, I want to imagine a workplace where they're gonna be. Uh so when I was growing up, the workplace is big company, you're doing this. And so in order to get there, you need to study this, this and that.

• 21:35Speaker 03

  Can you paint me a picture of a workplace or a company in ten years? What does it look like? What should be people be preparing for? Agency. I think AI will give people more agency. So a lot of the, a lot of the future of work, I think will rely on people who knows, who know how to use these tools in very effective way. So let me give you a concrete example. We, one of the very coveted jobs in Silicon Valley in the past twenty years is product manager. You know, there's a lot of conversations of the shifting nature of product management job. It used to be, ten years ago,

• 22:19Speaker 03

  fairly standard product manager's job is more the thread between users, markets and engineers. They're more like conductors. They don't have to code. They, fairly often, they were not software engineers. So if they want a prototype, they go to a designer, they go to a software engineer, they get a prototype and then they, they send the prototype to users and, and they listen to the users and, and synthesize the feedback. And that life cycle of product management might take typically months, you know, in, in a company.

• 23:03Speaker 03

  Today, if you look at the job of product manager, actually, a lot of companies are experimenting with different things. But there are some fundamental changes. A lot of product managers just now codes themselves. They don't have to wait to prototype from a team of people. They can use AI to help to design something very simple and, and vibe code. So that part shortens the life cycle. Doesn't mean we, we, we should get rid of designers or software engineer, but it just saves time. And so that software engineer and designers can do much more sophisticated work. Also, user side things.

• 23:45Speaker 03

  are shifting, AI can actually simulate user behaviors. And there are much, um, um, much if more efficient ways to reach to the users, to, to close the loop with users. So I'm looking at these young product managers. And when I uh look to hire them, I look for those who are riding the, the wave of changes. I don't look for those product uh managers who are still talking about the textbook uh workflow of even five years ago. So what I think the future of companies,

• 24:26Speaker 03

  there's a lot to imagine and depending on the company from healthcare to, to um, um, education to whatever industry. But I think our workforce will be much more empowered or can be much more empowered by powerful tools like AI. So that personal agency, creativity, and also the boundaries of what people, a, a person can do and cannot do is just a lot more blurred and lowered, lowered. So to me, um,

• 25:06Speaker 03

  that's gonna just fundamentally shift the structure of corporate America and, and um, um, every student today should try to imagine who they wanna be in that new structure.

• 25:20Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah, it feels like you're describing entrepreneurs within workspace. Or you're like, either you're an entrepreneur or you're an entrepreneur within organization, which means you're handling multiple things and you're responsible for multiple things.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  I mean, my hypothesis on this, you will get a barbell effect. And this is what we are seeing at MasterClass, where you have one group that are becoming the specialists. And it used to be, like, I remember in school, like, I was told to pick one area and just go deep in that and that's how I build a long-term career. I think that's eroding, except if you're in the top one, if you're like the actual best. What I mean by this is, if I'm a copywriter, if I'm an okay one, Anybody that now uses an LLM can do a decent job at that. But if you're the best in the world at it, or if you're in the top 1%, I can't beat you at it.

• 26:16Speaker 04

  And so we're seeing, A, the rise of people who are specialists that are very good at their thing. And I think that extends to tons of crafts. And then the other role we're seeing is this high-agency generalist, who's able to do lots of different things well, and has good, has really good skills on the judgment side, on the agency side. And those people, when you see them interact, is really neat. Because they then interact with somebody who's in the top 1% at their craft. And they're like, whoa, I couldn't do that, right? And I, so my guess is that it's a bifurcation of those specialists and the people that can do lots of things well.

• 26:58Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 27:28Speaker 06

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade. Hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 27:58Speaker 03

  That's interesting, and I I agree with you. I think both whether you're on the specialist side or generalist side, you both have agency.

• 28:06Speaker 04

  Yes, that's

• 28:08Speaker 03

  And you should both be able to use tools in ways that's uniquely creative and deep, right? I'm already seeing this, right? Um, for example, designers, you know, they they bring so much human creativity, but I see some of them use all kinds of A I tools in in ways I cannot personally imagine. So I know that's where their craftsmanship comes. And also the word entrepreneurial, um, in Silicon Valley, that's almost like I'm gonna do a Delaware Incorporated startup, and that's the label entrepreneur. And I disagree. I think the word word entrepreneurial is very much a synonym to agency.

• 28:49Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah.

• 28:50Speaker 03

  You know, it's it doesn't matter. You can be a doctor, special specialty doctor. You can be a K twelve teacher, uh, but agency is the key. And in the face of a technology that is so cognitively advanced, uh, have be brave, have your human agency and command that technology. Use that technology, get familiar with that technology. Don't be afraid, don't shy away from it, because that's where the the the wheels of history is turning towards the future. And I think everybody, it doesn't have to be a Silicon Valley founder. Everybody can be entrepreneurial for their craftsmanship or whatever they want to do.

• 29:35Marina Mogilko?

  You mentioned so many tools, like use tools, use tools. Can you give me example of some of the tools that have been transformational to your job?

• 29:42Speaker 03

  Obviously, all kinds of um, from Chat G P T to Gemini to Claude. I use it in many different ways. They have so many features from helping me to um, study some deep topics or to have a conversation. Uh, here's a here's a fun example. I'm in charge of laundry in my household. So every weekend I have to do loads and loads of laundry. And it used to be my audiobook type, but sometimes, um,

• 30:13Speaker 03

  Sometimes I get bored just listening to audiobook and and just about a few months ago, I realized I can have a conversation of a deep topic with AI as I was just folding laundry. And that has been so much fun. Somehow it's more even more motivating for me to go fold laundry because I can have me time with with AI to learn anything I want. And um I of of course, software engineering has been completely transformed. And also, you know, on the art and design side, um I mean, World Labs, we are creating um

• 30:50Speaker 03

  models to help our creators and uh to imagine 3D worlds and and all that. So we see also see change in the creative world. Uh once again, that's also a very contentious area because um some companies have positioned AI's uh creative tools as if it's a replacement. And I just deeply, deeply protest that um positioning. I I think that human creativity, even just on the visual side, or human creativity is so vast.

• 31:32Speaker 03

  But even just on the visual design side, is profoundly intertwined with our emotional intelligence, with the story we bring, with the values we bring, uh each uh creators bring. I just think AI is such a powerful tool to help them solicit their um, you know, express their creativity instead of to replace it.

• 31:58Marina Mogilko?

  Totally.

• 31:59Speaker 04

  Do you feel AI can never be very smart until it figures out spatial intelligence?

• 32:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, so this is the work I'm doing now in World Labs. So what is spatial intelligence? Spatial intelligence is a term that encompasses multiple abilities today that humans display in an environment like this one, 3D environment. If we look at movement, we call it 4D environment. We can understand what's going on. I see people, I see equipments, I see this beautiful home. This is the understanding part of spatial intelligence. We can reason. If I wanna go and, you know, go grab a bottle of water in the fridge, I have to reason about the space, reason about, I can go up the staircase,

• 32:50Speaker 03

  I can recognize the fridge, I reason about my movement. So that's reasoning. That's another part of spatial intelligence. A third part of spatial intelligence is generation. Is that in my mind's eye, even though I'm not seeing your living room, but I actually have a view of what that living room looks like. If I'm a more, better artist, I can actually generate a lot of visual 2D or 3D or 4D visual artifacts and pieces. So humans can generate a lot of space. And the fourth, last but not the least, part of visual, sorry,

• 33:34Speaker 03

  spatial intelligence is interactivity. Is how I focus on interacting with the space, right? Like how, again laundry folding, that's my favorite weekend activity these days. That's deeply spatial. How you fold each piece of garment and now you hang them in the closet and all that is highly interactive. So spatial intelligence is these four things. Understanding, reasoning, generation, and interaction. And we are working on that. We have made tremendous progress. I'm saying collective we.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  You know, today you use, say, Nano Banana or if you use GPT Image, that tool can actually help you to generate a lot of 2D imagery. It can actually explain to you what

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Unknown flower is in your garden. That understanding is is quite advanced. It can help you to reason. Now we can actually draw figures in in AI tools. The the generation part, right now, the more mature products on the two D side. What we're labs is doing is on the three D side. Three D is so fundamental for robotic interaction, for truly controllable creativity, such as design, architecture, game development, VFX. So that's the piece we are working on.

• 35:14Marina Mogilko?

  Is it separate from L L M's? Like, I mean, do L L M's have their limit and then world models step in?

• 35:22Speaker 03

  Uh, yes and no. I think they're complementary. You can think about humans, right? Just as you were saying, to to put a basketball in the hoop. First of all, that's such a fast action that people don't like sit there and think and talk in their head. But I do think that is a even that act itself is a highly complex, intelligent moment where a language reasoning come in. Because you probably as an athlete, you are you are clearly aware of this scoring this or missing this, what it means to the game or to the moment.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  And some of that is probably going on in a language way. But seeing the court, seeing the other players and and aiming the ball, that is deeply spatial. And then orient orienting your body.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  Like knowing how to make that move is deeply physical. So so many things we do in life is actually a mixture of language linguistic uh intelligence, spatial intelligence and physical intelligence. So to me, they're very complementary. They work together. I do deeply believe spatial is a huge piece of it. Evolution took five hundred million plus years to get spatial intelligence to maturity. It took much a much shorter time for language intelligence.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  So it's a very profound, ancient, uh fundamental intelligent capability of animals and humans.

• 37:13Marina Mogilko?

  And how far are we from uh understanding the fullness of it, like a hundred percent of?

• 37:20Speaker 03

  Wow, I as a scientist, I never know what's a hundred percent because science itself is pushing the boundaries of unknown. The the if the goalpost is human intelligence, the challenge is we don't even know how far human intelligence is, right? Uh we we we never know the the boundary of human intelligence. But uh if you think the daily capability of humans, the average capabilities.

• 37:50Marina Mogilko?

  Laundry folding.

• 37:51Speaker 03

  Right, the the the the the cooking omelet, the laundry folding, the playing basketball. Um how far are we? We're not there yet. But is it gonna take a hundred years? I don't think so. My my goal is we could get there in my lifetime.

• 38:12Marina Mogilko?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  And I think a lot of people are working on that. So that put a kind of a bound, right? I I don't think it will take a hundred years. It might not even take fifty years, but it's not gonna take one year.

• 38:25Marina Mogilko?

  Hmm.

• 38:25Speaker 03

  Either.

• 38:26Marina Mogilko?

  Well, what what is your estimate? When does Dr. Fei-Fei Li retire from laundry folding on Sundays? How many years?

• 38:34Speaker 03

  Yesterday.

• 38:37Speaker 03

  Like I said, I don't know.

• 38:39Marina Mogilko?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:41Speaker 03

  Laundry food itself is also involves physical embodiment. So that's that that also involves sensor technology and hardware technology. So that that so that goes a little bit more complex. But again, I'm hoping it's our lifestyle.

• 39:00Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah, me too. As a mom, I'm hoping.

• 39:02Speaker 04

  I I mean, I know this is a term that you avoid for a whole host of factors. But my hypothesis would be you can't get anywhere close to what AGI, which I know is a word that you avoid for a host of reasons, is you can't even get close to it until we do the spatial intelligence. Because that's about that's to read people, that's to interact in the world.

• 39:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, look, I'm not gonna fight the popularity of this word. It's just as a scholar, we always the field in in the academic world is called artificial intelligence. It's it's it's not scientifically rigorously clear what the G means. Right? So but whatever, that's just a word that we we can. It's just a nickname, I guess. Yeah, I agree with you, David. I think AI or intelligence is complex. I I I don't think the picture of AI will be complete without spatial intelligence.

• 40:05Marina Mogilko?

  So we mentioned agency so many times today. David, as someone who runs an educational company, what would be your advice for people who want to work in their agency? How do you even teach your kids agency?

• 40:17Speaker 04

  It's a really good question. The research I've looked into a lot is not quite there yet. So we don't know exactly how to do it. We have hypotheses. And if you break down agency into into individual parts, we we then have clues for it. So, for example, we know to be able to feel safe to actually take risks is is an important part of it. We know that. Being able to fail and learn from those is a big part of agency.

• 40:57Speaker 04

  We know the resilience to get back up is really important part of it. We know that there's a curiosity in the world that's also a really big part of it. There's also things of like fundamental needs to wanna solve a thing or to impress someone, which isn't necessarily the best traits. But those things drive, if you need to solve a problem issue or whatever's gonna drive you to solve that is gonna help you, force you to find agency. I think the research I've seen is much more on the qualitative side of what drives agency. Things people will say, and there's some evidence for this, it's just weak.

• 41:41Speaker 04

  It's you wanna, you wanna put yourself in places that are gonna be hard and new for you. So you wanna get, and that starts as a kid, right? You wanna be in a world that you have the fundamentals of love and food and sleep and mental health are provided for you there. We know also that you can incentivize it too. So I think, you know,

• 42:18Speaker 04

  we have done things where you get additional comp if you do this thing. Comp does push you to do things on it. But agency itself, from my own experience, so much of life in society, we are taught to seek praise. If you think about as kids, praise from our moms and dads. School, praise from our instructors, jobs from our bosses. And having agency and that, to your point, that entrepreneurialism that isn't just for entrepreneurs. It's almost a rejection of that societal value or push to be praised.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  I remember when I started MasterClass, everybody told me it was an impossible idea and a bad idea. And that was really hard for me for somebody who sought praise for most of my life. And then, but then what I had to realize and change was to, if you have an idea that everybody thinks it's good, it's probably not a good idea. And that you actually to have agency and to be an entrepreneur, you have to chase what other people think is actually impossible. And then now as entrepreneur, when somebody says something's impossible, I'm like,

• 43:36Marina Mogilko?

  You're like, oh, that's what I'm visiting.

• 43:37Speaker 04

  Like, I'm gonna dive more into that, right? And so I think it's like a fundamental shift and it comes from a lot of things that like, I wish I knew if I teach you these four things, you're now gonna have high agency, it's more complicated than that.

• 43:50Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  Totally. I think you said it beautifully. Yeah.

• 43:54Marina Mogilko?

  You have this aspect of, which I feel like is an aspect of agency, independent thinking. You wrote this Substack where you're teaching people to like switch everything off, make your own decisions, but and generate your own thoughts. What I feel like as someone who's been taught to respond to praise, it's so scary. Cause if it's contrarian to

• 44:17Speaker 04

  It's hard to turn off, yeah.

• 44:18Marina Mogilko?

  most of your friends and you're like, come out with this opinion and they disagree with you. How do you train that muscle? Cause I feel so important for agency as well.

• 44:27Speaker 03

  Well, this question goes into the heart of family values. How do I personally train that muscle for, for me, my kids, my students? Is, is everything David said, it's encouragement is, is,

• 44:48Speaker 03

  you know, as simple as don't be lazy. I know that people in my generation lament about there's too much internet, there's too much social, there's too much AI. I actually have a contrarian view.

• 45:03Speaker 03

  I think our new generation, our next generations, I'm actually a little envious of them because I think their world is much more heterogeneous. That if you're used to being on Twitter slash X, you're used to being on Insta or TikTok, you start to realize the world is full of voices. Instead of that one teacher or one parent when the world was smaller and narrower. So our new generation of young people are natively born into a world full of voices, full of opinions, full of possibilities.

• 45:48Speaker 03

  And that can be daunting, that can be, if you're misguided, we know, I'm not saying, I mean, there's a lot of issues in social media and all that. But that can be also opportunity because you kind of, you can use this reality to, to remind the young generation, look, it's your voice that matters because, you know, there's no authoritarian voice or tiny, tiny number of people holds the megaphone, right? And that can be used to encourage young generation to, to reexamine the century they're living in.

• 46:33Speaker 03

  And this is a century of a lot of tools that can give you agency. This is a century of your voice matter more than anybody else's voice if you believe in that. And that's very different from our generation.

• 46:49Marina Mogilko?

  Do you have anything like that, like an unlock for people who are curious about AI, just starting?

• 46:54Speaker 03

  So, so first of all, if it's narrowly about my employee, I mean, I love. They probably aren't working for you.

• 47:01Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah, if they're not using AI.

• 47:04Speaker 03

  More AI than I do. So, so that's just a moot question for a deep AI tech startup like World Labs. But I do wanna turn that question to talk to those who are.

• 47:19Speaker 03

  More in the public, especially the generation right now who you're already professionals. You you are teachers, nurses, you know, accountants, whoever you are. And and the public discourse, like we said earlier, is so polarized. You don't really, other than anxiety, you don't really know how you can get to AI. I think I do wanna encourage people who feel that way is that

• 47:53Speaker 03

  find a kid, either your own kid or your nephew or your niece, that they are likely to be younger than twenty five year old. Almost all of them are already using AI in some way. And be curious, ask them to just show you how they use AI. And don't worry about this as a technology, but be curious about the future world that they will live in. Your kid will be living, your grandkid will be living, your student will be living.

• 48:32Speaker 03

  And try to just imagine that you're gonna take that journey into that world anyway. And they can be your guide.

• 48:41Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah.

• 48:42Speaker 03

  And just not worry about the I never learned computer science or I don't know which app I can open. Just let the young person in your life who you already trust or have a relationship with, hold your hand for a weekend or for for a session and show you that this is a world that's not that scary if you actually know what it is and it can be empowering. And if you do find it troublesome, if you do find it imperfect, by knowing it, by knowing where these issues are, your voice can be heard better.

• 49:24Marina Mogilko?

  Absolutely. I think that's an amazing ending to this. Thank you so much. Stay curious, develop your agency, work on it. And thank you so much for input and for your work.

• 49:34Speaker 03

  Thank you.

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• 50:20Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thank you.