KHC 185 - Keith Sivera

Keith Sivera - CEO of MTN OPS, a supplement and outdoor performance brand. He’s a former Onnit Labs executive and is known for his background in fitness, business leadership, and his personal journey of long-term sobriety, which shapes his focus on discipline and purpose. This episode dives into Keith’s journey through fitness, nutrition, and personal transformation covering everything from supplements, carb strategies, and marathon training to building discipline and mental toughness. It blends performance insights with deeper conversations on leadership, creating a strong culture centered around helping people push their limits and become their best selves. Shop MTN OPS: Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off https://mtnops.com/ Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Timestamps: 00:00:00 – How Keith Got into Fitness & Health 00:08:28 – Supplementation to Reach New Limits 00:18:35 – Carb Loading for Running Marathons 00:22:07 – Developing the Best Supplements for Athletes and Hunters 00:28:11 – What’s Changed for Cam to Run His Fastest Marathon 00:36:56 – Keith’s Running Goals 00:38:05 – Mental Attitude to Build Strength & a Healthy Body 00:42:00 – Traveling & Sticking to a Clean Diet 00:50:23 – Keith’s Workout Plan & Goals 00:54:23 – Nick the Trainer Dude & Carb Cycling 00:59:25 – Cravings, Fat Adapted Diets, No Carbs, & Testing the Limits 01:05:24 – Helping People Be Their Best Selves 01:08:31 – Keith’s Childhood, Alcoholism, to Clearing a Path to Success in Health 01:11:24 – Big Pharma and the Ozempic Effect 01:16:28 – Community & Authenticity Builds Success 01:27:39 – Building Culture with Employees: Operating with Intention 01:37:04 – F**k, Marry, Kill: Electrolytes, Protein, Creatine Thank you to our sponsors: Wild Alaskan Company: https://wildalaskancompany.com/cameron use code CAMERON for $35 off your first box Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off Ketone IQ: https://www.ketone.com/Cam use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 10% your orderGrizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Cameron Hanes?

  This is a Keep Hammering Collective with Keith Sivera. Are you the CEO of Mountain Ops? Is that your title?

• 0:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:21Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Yeah, so this is the first time, I don't think we've met in person, right?

• 0:26Speaker 01

  We just had one call.

• 0:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. Okay. I knew I'd, once you walked, I opened the door, I'm like, okay. Not what I, not who I was expecting, but I've seen you before and we've talked before and it's just like, I had some different something in my head. But dude, it's fun to have you here. It's cool to talk about, I mean, just in general. So you're running Mountain Ops?

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:54Cameron Hanes?

  I've been with Mountain Ops since I don't even know how long.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  It's almost day one. I mean, the early days.

• 0:58Cameron Hanes?

  Since?

• 0:59Speaker 01

  We're going into 12 years and I think you've been with us for 10.

• 1:02Cameron Hanes?

  Right. So it's been a while. And my whole thing with, when that started, you know, when Mountain Ops started, there was like, I think there's a wilderness athlete that had done some stuff, but it was pretty new in the supplementation for hunters and for mountain athletes. And so it's kind of, it's pretty exciting. It was just like, oh God, hunters, you know, I've always said hunters are athletes. I've always trained like that. I've always, you know, had that mindset. But to get the industry to buy in wasn't easy.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35Cameron Hanes?

  And then, you know, the Harbersons were, got, had this vision or whatever, and they kind of got this going and I was involved and Eva was, and I think Eva's still involved, right?

• 1:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So she, yeah, she's a badass. So, and it was like so much buzz and just like, the shows were epic. And it was just like, man, this is cool. Hunters are athletes. And we got, now we got a company like Mountain Ops supporting it and helping tell that story. And that was an exciting time. I mean, so tell me like, what were you doing at that time?

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08Cameron Hanes?

  Like, just so we can- Build up this trajectory of how did we get right here?

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an interesting story how we got to this point where I'm sitting with you. Because I don't have a background in hunting. I didn't grow up hunting. My first time hunting was with Mountain Ops. But I've been in this supplement space for a while. I started in 2012 or so at bodybuilding.com. I had gone through a big physical transformation at the time. I was living in New York City. I lost like 75 pounds. I started working out. I started taking supplements. I started figuring all the stuff out. It was all so new to me. I found it a little bit later in life. And it was the same time I stopped drinking. So I haven't had a drink in over 20 years.

• 2:46Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  I started working out, started eating right.

• 2:48Cameron Hanes?

  So what, you're just feeling, were you just at a?

• 2:51Speaker 01

  It was like a dark point, you know, I think, you know, everybody's bottom's a little different. And for me, I was, you know, almost unemployable. I worked in the liquor industry and that just didn't jive with my DNA, I guess. And I just found myself kind of as low as I wanted to be. And I had this little window of opportunity to to get clean and go on the right path. And I had some history in my family.

• 3:11Cameron Hanes?

  So this is in your twenties at this time?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Twenty-four. And so I had this opportunity to kind of walk away from all that. And I started going to meetings and I started doing all that kind of stuff. And I replaced going to the bar with getting under the bar. And I just started working out like a maniac all the time. And I loved it. And so then I just started back in my career. You know, figured how to get back to work and do all those kinds of things. Ended up moving to New York City, did a bunch of marketing up there. But it wasn't super fulfilling. Like I was getting it done. I was paying my bills and it was, it was going okay. But I felt like there was more and I just couldn't stop reading about fitness and exercise and nutrition and all these things. It was like, how do I get those things together so I can really kind of flex on it? And I clicked on the careers tab of bodybuilding.com one day because that was a site I was using all the time.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  And back then, if you search anything about, you know, how to build muscle, how to get a six pack, that kind of stuff, you were going, you were ending up on that site. And funny enough, they had this job that was perfect for my background. And I think it was like the mix of being the New York City guy and moving out to Idaho. Like bringing this, you know, New York marketer out was exciting for them. And I moved to Boise and probably

• 4:16Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  A month and a half after talking to them.

• 4:18Cameron Hanes?

  So they were in Idaho?

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and they're still out there.

• 4:22Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  And so when I had an awesome run with Bodybuild.com, just kind of dove in and did a lot of cool experiential marketing stuff. Anything I could get my hands on and it just kept growing and then I ended up becoming the VP of Marketing and had a great time there. Met a lot of great people, many of which I still work with today and brought them along the journey with me. And I got recruited by a company in Austin out of the blue, which I had been a fan of on it since like 2012 or 13. Heard about it on, you know, Joe's podcast, had bought products and when they said who it was, I was like, I couldn't get down there fast enough. You know what I mean? It just was perfectly aligned with who I was and what I was all about. And got to Austin and just was so much fun. Started as a VP of Marketing and ended up taking over as CEO by the time I left.

• 5:04Cameron Hanes?

  When it comes to seafood, most people don't really know what they're buying, where it came from, how it was raised, or what you're actually putting in your body. I used to question all of it, nutrition, taste, sustainability, until I found Wild Alaskan Company. Wild Alaskan Company delivers 100% wild-caught seafood straight to your door. No farmed fish, no antibiotics, no additives. The first box I got was impressive. Perfectly portioned, frozen right off the boat and packed with flavor. I've been cooking it simple, pan-seared, salmon, halibut and cod, and it's some of the best fish I've had. My favorite is a wild Alaskan salmon. It's rich, clean and loaded with omega threes.

• 5:47Cameron Hanes?

  Buying wild-caught seafood matters to me. It supports healthy oceans, real fishing communities, and gives you food you can actually trust. And the best part is it's flexible. You choose what you want, when it ships, and it just shows up ready to go. And there's zero risk. If you're not completely satisfied with your first box, Wild Alaskan Company will give you a full refund, no questions asked. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com backslash Cameron for $35 off your first box of premium wild-caught seafood.

• 6:24Cameron Hanes?

  I've been shooting Hoyt for over 20 years now, and they're a lifetime partner of mine. That's not something I take lightly. I stay with partners that prove themselves, and Hoyt continues to do that year after year. They shattered the industry standards and built the AX90, the first 90-pound bow to exist and be offered to consumers. Why? Because they have pioneered more advancements in archery than any other company of their time. That's why I work with them, because they are the best. For me, I want the most energy I can shoot in a bow. I want a heavy arrow hitting hard. To do that, I like to shoot 90 pounds. I shoot a 90-pound bow because I want a hard-hitting arrow delivered with

• 7:09Cameron Hanes?

  enough force to push through, say, a rib or the edge of a shoulder blade, because it's bow hunting. Not every shot is going to be perfect, but when the animal reacts, or maybe I don't make the most perfect shot, I still want to deliver a lethal arrow, and a 90-pound bow gives me more room for error. If you shoot 60 and I shoot 90, I will kill every animal you will kill at 60 pounds, but you won't kill every animal I will at 90. That's just the way it goes. That's why I shoot the most poundage I can, and for me, that's a 90-pound bow. You can't pull 90? Don't worry, most people can't. Hoyt makes bows

• 7:51Cameron Hanes?

  for hunters at all levels, and they're all the best on the market. Hoyt will never rest on their laurels and bring subpar products to the market, and that's why I love working with them. The 90-pound bow took multiple iterations, and while I was impatient, they were not. The 90-pound bow took multiple iterations, and while I was impatient, they were not. They wanted it perfected. That's who they are, and that tells you a lot about the people working there. Unfortunately, they don't offer discounts on bows, but if you want to grab some Hoyt merch or selected accessories, you can use my code CAM for 20% off. If you're serious about archery and you want something you can rely on, shoot a Hoyt.

• 8:34Cameron Hanes?

  Go find one at your local dealer, just like the Bow Rack here down the street from me, and try it for yourself. Get serious, get Hoyt, and keep hammering.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  We sold the business in 2021, so it was like this huge learning curve of all this cool stuff. And in that process, I met Trevor and the team over at Mountain Ops. And we had been friendly for a couple of years. We were trying to put a job together. And maybe 21 or 22, it just wasn't the right time. We stayed connected and then it came back around. It was like, hey, what do you think about coming and joining the team? And I was, yeah, I think the time's right. We worked out this great thing where I get to split my time in Austin. I have a blended family. So being able to not have to disrupt that whole thing that we have going on in Austin and be able to fly back and forth to Utah and bring my experience with supplementation and bringing some innovation to that, but also scaling it. We were talking before we started here about, you know, you can kind of hit that point where you start to flatline a little bit.

• 9:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Because I don't know if you get comfortable or like a lot of founder-led businesses, you kind of grab your friends and family and people close to you. And they were super smart people that got the business to where it was, just like Onnit. But then you start growing and adding more to the team to try to punch through those barriers. And that's kind of where Onnit was at the time. It was like two, three years in a row, kind of flatlining. And then we pumped some juice in there. We got Joe really kind of dialed in and activated in a big way.

• 9:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  And then it was just off to the races. And then COVID hit and we really had a nice boom from that because everybody was training at home. We had all the awesome fitness equipment and everything, so it just went crazy.

• 10:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  And so it took a lot of similar principles with me to Mountain Ops. Like, how are we going to get the word out there? We have a great brand. We're talking to a customer that nobody else was servicing with these types of products, like you mentioned. And what are we going to do to make sure that it's not getting stale? We're driving innovation. We're keeping customers in because 74% of Mountain Ops customers had never taken a supplement before.

• 10:28Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, really?

• 10:28Speaker 01

  So they're very new to the whole idea. So we have very approachable supplements that work. But when you get a little more educated and you want a little bit more performance, we found customers were having to go somewhere else.

• 10:38Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Didn't have something for them. So it was like, well, that's a miss. We don't want to do all the education. You know, get all the conditioning and kind of compliance.

• 10:46Cameron Hanes?

  Get them to the dance and then they're dancing with the quarterback.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Pretty girls. So it was like, all right, we need to, we need to step it up. And so that's kind of what we're talking about. You know, we put this line together, you know, with you in mind is really how we built it.

• 10:59Cameron Hanes?

  This is the apex line that we're talking about.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  That's right. So we have a few core products in there and it's really clean products, NSF certified, using a lot of cool clinically studied ingredients that are really going to help drive performance and keeping like the endurance athlete in mind, right? So traditionally, a lot of our products are very sweet, they're very flavorful and approachable. But when you're kind of in the heat of battle, you don't always want all that flavor bomb. You don't want all of that. You want to be able to consume it and stay on course. So we've been playing around with a lot of different flavor profiles, a lot of different ingredients, and really happy where it's coming together. And I think you're going to be excited and surprised at what we've put together.

• 11:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, there, in regard to the flavor, there's a thing called, you can get palate fatigue. And once you start taking, especially like in the endurance runs, the long multi-day stuff, you can't be taking, eating the same stuff the whole time. It just like you can't get it down. But just like to backtrack. So as I said, when Mountain Ops started, it was like, it didn't really matter. It's just like, it didn't even matter if it was good.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the only one.

• 12:02Cameron Hanes?

  It was, this is just cool. You know what I mean? And then as you, as you get more serious down the road and you're like, okay, so what is the purpose of supplements, right? Purpose of supplements is to make me better. It's to give my body what it needs. So it's a supplement. It's, there's, I think, I look at it differently, maybe than some, but you know, a supplement would be like, if your diet isn't giving you what you need, then you have the supplement that'll do that. That's kind of what people think about with supplements. But I'm always like, no, I'm, I'm getting what I need. I want to get it to the next level. I want to give my body, you know, not just what it needs, but what it needs to excel, to, to reach new limits. And, you know, when supplements first came

• 12:46Cameron Hanes?

  on, that wasn't the mindset. It was just like, oh, this is cool. Kind of emerging industry. We've got to tell the story about hunters or athletes. Some people buy in, some people don't, whatever. Well, now we're down the road where now there's like, there is a whole fitness industry in hunting, right? But consequently, supplements need to also grow in that same regard with quality and, and being efficient, or I mean, effective. So like for me, it didn't make sense for me if I'm have, if I'm trying to perform at a level higher than I've ever been to take supplements that were when I was down here, right? So that's where we've talked about the

• 13:26Cameron Hanes?

  apex line where, you know, I can, I do, I, I research, I test out, I'm like, I know what's out there. I know what the best of the best is, let's make that too. Because we're partners, right? I want, I want this to work for hunters and I want this to work for me and I want to work for other people just like me with big goals that, you know, hunting is a huge part of what we do, but it's not the only thing. It's, we also do these ultra races. We train every day to get ready for hunting. Well, you want to feel good during that whole process, right? And that's where supplements come in. And yeah, so it's like, there's, there's been a lot of stuff, you said like bodybuilding.com, GNC, there's all these things where you just go

• 14:11Cameron Hanes?

  in and you're just kind of looking at this thing. It's like, God, is this good or bad?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  A lot of, a lot of information.

• 14:16Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if these are good ingredients or bad, bad ingredients. So you kind of need somebody to, to explain it to you or, and hopefully that's what we can do here with this apex line. In general, it's just the highest quality supplements for, regardless of what you're trying to do, just live. But I'm also trying to live at my, as, as I said, my highest potential. And I think that's where these supplements can, can really help and come in, hopefully.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you're not the same athlete you were 10 years ago. You're continuing to evolve. The supplementation industry has evolved. So we're looking at what are the best ingredients that are on the market today? And how can we service our customers? And like you said, supplements fill in the gaps. Like you have to have the foundation set. You got to do the training. You got to eat right. You're not going to be able to eat a terrible diet and not train and take a supplement and get jacked. So there's this balance of it. And we want something that is. Going to be effective, right? But only if you take it consistently, will it truly be effective? So it has to taste good, it has to perform, and there has to be science behind it. So some of these things are like pennies in the bank for a future day as well. Like a performance product, like a pre-workout, you're going to drink it, you're going to feel energized,

• 15:30Speaker 01

  you're going to have good vasodilation, you're going to get a good pump, you're going to be able to squeeze out more reps. That one's pretty easy to go like, that's working. And then there's other types of vitamins and supplements that you take, that you're taking for future benefit. And then you just have to trust us, right? And why are you going to trust us? Well, you can trust us with this line because it's third-party tested. We're using ingredients that have scientific background that can show you this actually worked in clinical trials, that it is improving performance, it's improving recovery, it's helping replenish all the electrolytes and minerals that we lose when we sweat. So all the things that are happening when we're training, we're making sure that we're not just baseline, right? Like we're coming in from a deficiency, we're looking to go baseline up, we're looking for performance products. Right? So we're using some of the best stuff that's going to help you feel that, both today and long-term.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  And so that's what I'm excited about, is something that, you know, you're going to want to take because you will notice in your workouts, whether you're in the gym or you're out in the mountain, that you actually perform better.

• 16:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  I think that's the key is, a lot of times people get bought into the hype of something, but then they go and take it, and it just sits in their cabinet because it didn't really do anything.

• 16:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  So for me, it's always been about, like, can I feel it? Even if it's something like I'm supposed to feel long-term, I still want like immediate benefits. I think that's the key is, when I take it, something happens. Either I have more energy, I feel like I'm recovering faster, I'm able to, you know, beat an old PR. So I'm constantly kind of moving forward in the direction I'm trying to get.

• 16:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, there's a, there's something about, can you feel it's making a difference? And here's what I've learned, I can't feel if I'm not operating at a high, like pushing myself.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:03Cameron Hanes?

  I can't really tell.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:05Cameron Hanes?

  When I push myself, I can tell. So it's like when your body needs something like,

• 17:12Cameron Hanes?

  I just, I put these, I, th- these are like, this is just what I take, like, every day I, I uh, go on a run, I'm out there for a few hours a day. When you're pushing like that, you need calories. Yeah. You can't, once you get depleted on your run, so, so here's the theory be- behind running, essentially, and ultra running, is uh, you train your stomach to get ready for these calories as you're taking on this long e- event. Um, but if, in training, if you haven't trained your stomach for that, it won't take, it won't work during the race. Right. And then also in training, here's what people, I, and I have made this mistake too. I would say, I'm gonna go running, I'm not taking water, I'm not taking calories, cause I wanna train my body to perform when it doesn't have that. Right.

• 17:57Cameron Hanes?

  Because in the, in the mountains, I'm not always gonna have water. I'm not always gonna have calories. What am I gonna do? Lay down? Yeah. Quit? Die? Or am I still gonna hunt? So I'm like, okay, I have to train my body to be at its best, even, you know, in tough conditions. But what happens when you're training, so if I'm on, like, me and Tru are doing a hard 12 mile run today, we're gonna have to take in calories towards the end, cause if we don't, we can't push to the level we'll need to, cause our body's depleted. Yeah. Our, we're not getting the results that we, w- we're not getting, basically, you can challenge your body in a different way, and you get this uh, response from it.

• 18:37Cameron Hanes?

  And we can't get the response we need if we don't get, if we're depleted and we can't push to get the times we need at that level of the workout. So, like, the la- the, the most important miles will be like the last four miles. And we'll have to be able to push at 5:30 pace for those four miles to get the response our body needs for this training. If we're fatigued, or, or we're down on calories and we can't get to that, maybe we run 5:45, well, we're, we're not do- it's not working. That's not how it's supposed to work. We're not gonna get the gains we would've if we just would've gave our body what we need, needed to perform at the level we're intended. So what I do on these runs is like, I just need calories. I need protein.

• 19:21Cameron Hanes?

  I know that's gonna last for a while. This thing, I don't, I don't, this isn't one of my favorites. I do like the cookie dough one. But you know, calories are calories. And then I just always have the greens in the morning too. These are like the three things I have right now, since we don't have the apex line. And all, all I care about is, hey, I'm just trying to give my body what it needs to perform at a high level for the entire workout. And you have to think about stuff like that because then, then if you have that mindset in the mountains where instead of like operating to depleted state. Instead, you're like more intentional on like, just like in racing, I can't be at my best if I'm not giving my body calories.

• 20:00Cameron Hanes?

  Well, that goes on a hunt too. If I'm trying to make a 70 yard shot on a bull elk and I have like a fraction of a second to do it and I need to be steady and make my brain has to be working, my body has to be responding. I need to make that a precise shot because an animal's life is at stake. What am I doing by not, by not allowing my body to perform at the highest level by not giving it calories?

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, your blood sugar is low.

• 20:24Cameron Hanes?

  Everything.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Shaky and your adrenaline spiking. And I think there's something to what you said too about also training in non-optimal conditions because we're not always going to be in an air conditioned gym.

• 20:33Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  On a treadmill, you know, with all these calories getting pumped into us. Sometimes you are going to be without. So I think it is good to feel that. And what you're talking about too, about being ready for those last few miles that you know you have to press or being prepared to take the shot. You have to be prepared. If you're already shaking and losing energy, it's like too late.

• 20:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  So you need to be fueling throughout. You're not going to, you know, take those calories in, in the last four miles. You're going to take them before the last four miles. So your body can actually use them. So you're going to see in the line, we actually have some carbohydrate products, which for years and years carbs were the bad thing, right?

• 21:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  I think real athletes know that carbs are essential to make sure that you can perform. So we're introducing products like that with electrolytes and carbohydrates. So you can stay fueled during your exercise. But I think a lot of people looked at pre nutrition, right? Like I'm going to take my pre-workout. I'll get my meals in before. But then I'll have this grueling session and, and maybe if I'm smart, I'll do my aftercare, right? I'll do some recovery protein and things like that.

• 21:27Cameron Hanes?

  Protein right after.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  There's so much important in between, especially if you're working at that higher level. And you're putting that output out there that's going to require some additional calories or carbs or whatever, especially electrolytes and sodium. I think a lot of people underestimate how much they're losing when they're doing these workouts. And sometimes when you're not feeling so hot, you're feeling foggy, you don't feel as sharp, your energy's down. Sometimes it's just you're dehydrated.

• 21:48Cameron Hanes?

  Or salt.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 21:50Cameron Hanes?

  Salt.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 21:51Cameron Hanes?

  It's crazy what salt is.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  There's this old thing, I don't know if you know Mark Bell.

• 21:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Mark Bell used to talk about powerlifting meets using soy sauce packets as like instead of, you know, you're cramping and all these things, you'd have all these soy sauce packets. And it was like this little underground thing that they were doing, but really it was just getting as much sodium in as short amount of time as possible. But yeah, we have something that tastes a little bit better than soy sauce nowadays. So yeah, we're going to go with that.

• 22:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's, you know, to your point on pre-loading and things like that. So in marathon or any big endurance event, there's always been the carb loading the night before. You know, have you done a marathon?

• 22:26Speaker 01

  I haven't officially done a marathon. I just got into running a couple of years ago to try to keep up with my wife, who's a good runner, but it's been, it's been a tough challenge, but I can, I'm there, I'm there now. I can do it now.

• 22:35Cameron Hanes?

  There in spirit. Well, you got time.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:37Cameron Hanes?

  You're young. You're, you're just a kid compared to me. But, uh, so of course we carb load the night before, but now in, back in the day, like, you know, I've done the Eugene marathon for decades now, it seems like, or not decades, I've done marathons for decades, but probably the Eugene marathon since 2007. But anyway, um, I guess that is decades.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:00Cameron Hanes?

  Uh, but it used to be back in the day, you wouldn't even take any calories during the run, or you might get like a piece of, of a banana.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:09Cameron Hanes?

  At like an aid station, like they have a little cup of water, a little banana. That's only calories, if anything. And then kind of goo started coming on and like goo was terrible, tough to get down. It's like fricking cocking around a window and you're trying to swallow and you can't do anything. But the point was, is like nowadays, you take like their, their gels, there's some really good gels out there, but you take them basically every 35 to 40 minutes.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:37Cameron Hanes?

  So yes, you carb load the day before, but you got to keep those calories going and those carbs going in. So now there's a whole theory on carbs per hour in these races.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:48Cameron Hanes?

  And you can't fall behind.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  And you got to practice that too. Like you're saying, you don't want to do that for the first time when you're doing the race.

• 23:56Cameron Hanes?

  No, you should.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Actually, I worked with a guy who ran his first marathon last year and carb loaded, but had never done any of that. And then ran the race after slamming 900 carbs or whatever the night before, did not have a fun time. So like, yeah, we want to practice for all different kinds of scenarios. It's part of the training, you know?

• 24:12Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, we do it in the gym. We want to do what we do in the gym so we can do it out in the field.

• 24:17Cameron Hanes?

  It's not quite as like for hunters. I use Ketone IQ when I need to stay sharp for the long haul. Long runs, lifting before I shoot my bow, even when I'm podcasting, anytime I want steady focus without crashing. What I like about it is how it feels. It helps me stay locked in during long efforts and mentally demanding sessions. Not jittery, not wired, just clear and steady. Ketones are your brain's preferred fuel source. So instead of that spiked caffeine feeling, the focus feels calm and controlled. It lets me push without leaning on caffeine or sugar. I'm not chasing another cup of

• 24:58Cameron Hanes?

  coffee or something sweet just to get through a workout or a long day. I can train, work, and think without that roller coaster of energy. Physically, I feel ready to go. Mentally, I'm locked in. That combination matters when you're putting in long hours and real work. Visit ketone.com backslash cam for 30% off your subscription order plus receive a free gift with your second shipment. Or find Ketone IQ at Target stores nationwide in the hydration and protein aisle and get your first shot free. Ignite isn't your average energy drink. It delivers smooth, long lasting energy, no jitters, plus mental clarity that cuts through the backcountry fog. Powered by amino acids and

• 25:42Cameron Hanes?

  brain blend of nootropics and 200 mg of clean caffeine, Ignite keeps you sharp and pushing hard mile after mile. Whether you're glassing ridges, packing in before dawn, or heading to elk camp, one scoop in your bottle and you're locked in. It's my go-to every hunt, every hike, every long drive. And Mountain Ops isn't just about performance. They're mission driven. Every purchase helps feed families in need through Operation Conquer Hunger. Right now, you can get 20% off your purchase, just go to mountainops.com and use code CAM at checkout. This season, don't settle for sluggish. Ignite the hunt. The reason why it's so, your stomach can get kinda screwed up on a race is jiggling all

• 26:25Cameron Hanes?

  around, right? You're pushing, you got all these calories, kinda got an empty stomach, you're not pushing that hard on a hunt. So, like, we talk about getting nauseous or whatever, shitting your pants, that's not gonna happen on a hunt. But if we just kinda switch the

• 26:41Cameron Hanes?

  thought process and be like, hey, I need to start thinking about getting calories in during the course of the day, you know, because normally you'd, when you hunt, most time you don't even eat in the morning, or you might have a pop tart or something that you're hiking to go try to find a bull, but you're not really intentional about food, or at least I hadn't been in the past. But yeah, just having a plan for that just throughout the day, I know it's helped me, you know, ever since I started getting more serious in ultras, I'm definitely more serious on taking in calories all day. I eat all day, because I have to be able to make those good crunch time decisions. It's work. And it's, uh, yeah, so I think that like the endurance sports really, you know, as I said, we got started in hunting and like, we didn't really know, Maud, you're just kinda,

• 27:26Cameron Hanes?

  hey, this is better than what we've ever had, but now it's like, now we're like really dialing it in. And I just feel like for me, you know, a bow that I use, a broadhead that I use, an arrow that I use, it's always the very best of the best, or I'm not using it. My supplements have to be the same.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:46Cameron Hanes?

  So that's where this apex line is just like, I, to be honest, once Truett left, you know, my son worked for Mountain Ops for a long time. And the way that kind of the trajectory was going on, on Mountain Ops, I thought, okay, this is about, this is about it. I'm about done. Think I'm gonna, there's probably like some higher quality stuff I could find, maybe, you know, a company that's, you know, on the, on the come up because Mountain Ops had a good run. And then I was just like, well, this is probably it because they're about where they're going to be. And this is, I need something more. And then we started talking about this, okay, well, I don't have to leave if, I thought I was gonna have to make my own, to be honest. But then we started talking about, well, could we do it together and

• 28:30Cameron Hanes?

  make this just the highest quality, the best product, the best supplements to allow, allow me, you know, and I, I am selfish. I want to kill more bulls, but you can't do.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:44Cameron Hanes?

  Everyone's invited on this journey, but I just wanted to allow me to be at my highest level. And so that's where this, this line is exciting.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  I think that's what works best, right? It's, you're making it for yourself. And if it works for you, I can promise it's gonna work for a lot of other people too, right? Like it's been getting put through the toughest conditions. And that's what I think is so cool about Mountain Ops in general is, you know, hunters put these products through the rigors that most people will never experience.

• 29:09Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  So if you're gonna go and have success there, you better believe it's gonna help you run a marathon. You're gonna believe it's gonna help you on the trail or in the gym or wherever else it might be. Because they're not just for hunters, right? But certainly with that in mind, in the most grueling conditions, that's where like a lot of our stuff is battle tested. And then we bring it to everybody else. So I think you've obviously created so much awareness about this hunter athlete idea that yeah, if you want to go out there and be successful, you better be prepared, just like anything. It's not just about making sure your gears and check. It's about making sure your body's ready for the test that's coming your way, especially if weather becomes unfavorable and then now your calories are down and you're having to do extra work that you weren't planning on. You want to be prepared for that. And the supplementation is a piece of it. It's not going to be your solve all. If you're not having a good day, it's not like one supplement's gonna fix it.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  But if you're checking the boxes where you're supposed to and getting the right amount of nutrition in, you're getting your calories, the supplements are gonna help push you even further.

• 30:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  I think we're all looking for that. I think something happens, you know, in your younger years, you know, you're 18 to 20 something where you're just wanting to see what you're capable of. And so there's this growth period. And then as you mature, there's this longing to not let go of those performance increases. You're like, well, I'm not done yet. I don't want to be on the decline. I don't want to be that guy that's like, the business isn't staying flat. I don't want my, my capabilities to stay flat. I want everything to be progressing and it's not linear. So it's like, it's going to be a challenge. There's going to be ups and downs, but we want to keep pressing. And I'm, I'm in my mid forties and feel the same way where I'm like, I don't want to stop. This isn't just where I'm at. Like this isn't good enough. I want to keep moving forward. And I think supplements are a big piece of that for me. It's something I find when I'm continuing to take products regularly.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  I'm like, well, I don't want to waste my money. If I'm going to be taking this, I might as well eat right and do the work and do all the other things that are going to help me be effective.

• 30:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  And that includes like recovery and sleep. And there's a lot of pieces to it and you have to plan your day. You have to be diligent with it, just like the work you put in the gym. You got to put work to make sure you're recovering properly as well at all. And then when that's all clicking, that's where I think the magic happens. That's where you unlock new PRs. You unlock new things that you didn't think were capable. And I know you've experienced that running on broken feet and doing all these things for hundreds of miles. I mean, it's incredible. So just imagine when we get this Apex line in, you know, anything's possible.

• 31:21Cameron Hanes?

  Well, and you know, to your point too, but you mentioned your age, you know, and, and that we're not done, you know, because it used to be like, when guys were my age, they were old.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. My dad was old right now.

• 31:35Cameron Hanes?

  When you see a 58 year old dude, you're just like, God, look at that old guy.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:39Cameron Hanes?

  But I, you know, I haven't done it yet, but I think I'm going to get my fastest ever marathon. And I've been running my whole life at 58. So we aren't done. We are, in fact, we're learning so much more, especially with the science part of it, with the stem cells and the, the, you know, the peptides and of course the quality supplements and the diet that we're learning. And then Like even just one quick little thing. I remember I was doing Western States Endurance Run is a hundred mile run in Squaw Valley to Auburn in 2010. And I was at a low spot. It's coming out of the canyons is like mile 55 for only my second hundred, but it was hot. I was fricking dying.

• 32:23Cameron Hanes?

  But I came out of that super hot canyons there at, like I said, 55. There's this guy, Sean Meisner. He's like, how are you feeling? I'm like, not great. He goes, he goes, here, take a couple of salt pills. And I didn't even hadn't even really thought about salt. But that was, you know, 16 years ago, I took two salt pills and I bounced back, right? And so it's like, there's these little things, like such a key mineral to our body. And I just know. So if I, if I think about that, then, you know, we talk about, you know, when the mountains were by yourself, maybe you get some weather in and you want to have confidence you're going to survive. Sometimes, just like that salt pill changed everything. Sometimes a few calories.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:08Cameron Hanes?

  You know, you get, you get beat down, you're cold, you're tired and you're just like, I don't know if I can do this anymore. Dig around in your pack, grab something, takes a, you know, get something to drink, get some calories in. Everything's different. All of a sudden you're like, you know what? Okay. What do I need to do here? And you just kind of, you just reset. But our bodies need fuel.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  You better have it with you.

• 33:35Cameron Hanes?

  And, and hydration, we have to have it. And when we have it, then it's a whole different game. But I, I've just learned like over the course of, you know, my journey as a hunter and as an athlete, that it sometimes it's the little things.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like how was your training change that you are in a position to run your fastest marathon at this point?

• 33:57Cameron Hanes?

  Um, I think, well, I, you know, I think probably the stem cells and in the supplements and I think I'm way more.

• 34:09Cameron Hanes?

  Educated on diet now than I was, I didn't know anything. I just thought I just ran all the time around like 20 miles a day and I just didn't even think about what I was eating. But now it's like everything and you know, Truus helped us too, just because he's, you know, he's trying to go for the OTQ and the marathon, which means he needs to run under 216. So it's like this, there's this formula about how much you weigh, how fast you can go, your, your efficiency, um, good to the training. And so being more dialed in on diet because he's trying to get down from when he was pull ups, like probably 30 or 40 pounds less. So then you start thinking about counting calories and you're like, well, how much, how hard can I train at a deficit? Because you're stealing from your body. So you're like,

• 34:54Cameron Hanes?

  then you're more susceptible to injury. So he's been like at a 700 calorie deficit every day, which I don't know if people have done this before. It is hard. It is hard. It is hard to train at a deficit. Most people, they're not worried about deficits. They're way over. Yeah. They don't know what it's like feels to be under fueled and push. But uh, it's, so that's been good. So I've been, I've been getting my, my weight down too. Um, but then also I think the biggest thing is just the metrics like on sleep, you know, and recovery, HRV. Um, I can get, sometimes I don't wear this because I get too addicted. Overlooked. Yeah, too addicted to, to numbers. But the sleep, just because I, I hadn't ever

• 35:39Cameron Hanes?

  had the time to sleep because I had a full-time job and did all this other shit on the side. So sleep was the only thing I could steal from. And I've never really had time to sleep. Well, now like I, I sleep like eight hours a day and never have. And my body's just like, thank you. Yeah. Finally. Waiting for this. Yeah. And so I think, I think it's just a combination of a lifetime of being active. I haven't, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't sabotage myself, which is what those things do. And I haven't for many, many years. So I think it's just kind of the perfect storm. And like you, you, we'd look at Rogan, he's the same age as me. Yeah. Frickin' jacked. Yeah. Dude.

• 36:24Cameron Hanes?

  He was like in the best shape he's been in. So jacked. And so there's this, it's just a crazy time. In the history of man right now, where hey, we don't have to be old at fifty eight.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't have to hang them up yet.

• 36:34Cameron Hanes?

  I don't even know when, when, when I will feel old, but I don't feel old right now. I feel very capable. I feel like I'm, you know, better than I've ever been, which is crazy.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:44Cameron Hanes?

  You know, so how exciting is that for people?

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Well, and that momentum too, I think so much of, at least what I've experienced in my physical journey is, is so much of it's mental. And if you have that mental block of being beat down, you can have that kind of comeback story. But when things are clicking and you feel confident and you're able to make progress because you're doing all the little things right. That, that momentum swell can really drive you through to places you didn't think you could go.

• 37:06Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Um, I was, we were talking about running and I just started getting into running a couple of years ago. And it started like I could run a quarter mile jog and then walk a quarter mile. Yeah. And it was like so defeating to not be able to just go run. I was training every day, right?

• 37:20Cameron Hanes?

  That's how everybody starts.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  It just didn't translate over. And so, but I just kept pounding it. And fortunately, because my wife likes to run and she's a great runner, I was like, I don't want to miss out on this with her. And she's younger than I am, so I'm trying to keep up, you know? And then it just like something punched through. I think listened to a lot of content that helped motivate me learning a little bit more about the mechanics of it. And then there was this unlock and then the progression of it. You start looking at your splits and then you're starting to run in further than you could, you know? And when I ripped off like my first twenty mile run, it was like, I, I cried. I was like, I didn't think this was possible.

• 37:48Cameron Hanes?

  That's awesome.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  You know, uh, and then now there's no excuses, right? Like, I don't need a gym. I'm fortunate to have, we have a great one at the office.

• 37:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  I'm fortunate to have one in my house, uh, in the garage, right? So like, I don't have excuses, but sometimes you're somewhere and there's no gym, but you can't not run, right? Like I have shoes so we can get outside and that's been such a game changer for me. From traveling, how you, what you do when you travel to a new city. But then also the health benefits of it are like nothing I've seen with any other type of training. Nothing's transformed my body more than running. And I feel like I'm more flexible. I have less pains, which I thought would be the other way. Like, oh, my knees and hips are going to hurt from running. It's like when I'm running more frequently.

• 38:26Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  I feel better all over and I sleep better and then all those other things. Uh, it's been a game changer for me. And it's like, I feel like people are more and more tuning in, especially in the, like the longer distances. I think all the conversations. You're having around are really opening people's eyes to like, I don't want to just be in the gym all day.

• 38:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  I want to go do something with this. You know, I think that was a pivot for me too. It was like getting in shape and then it's like, okay, well now what? What do I do with it? Not just like, I don't want to just look good, better than I used to.

• 38:53Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  I want to go, go do something cool. And all of a sudden you unlock all these things that like, as a guy that was, you know, almost eighty pounds overweight, I couldn't do those things. And so now like, almost anything is on the table and it's, it's so exciting.

• 39:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. What's your, what's your goal?

• 39:06Speaker 01

  I, I want to do an ultra. I want to do Bryce Canyon Ultra is my goal. Yeah.

• 39:11Cameron Hanes?

  Is that a fifty K?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, fifty K. Yeah. So like a nice, you know, middle ground, not a nothing burger, but yeah.

• 39:17Cameron Hanes?

  James doesn't count fifty K's, but we don't, he's an idiot. I count them.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  That's gonna count for me for sure.

• 39:23Cameron Hanes?

  I count them.

• 39:26Cameron Hanes?

  No, and that's beautiful country too. I, I love Utah. I mean, I've done, you know, Moab, which is a, does a great run. But uh, yeah, that's, that's exciting too, because you know, I've been a gym guy my whole life, but there's something about fluorescent lights and just like loud music and it's cool and it's like fun and it's like almost like a, it was like a nightclub for a while. You'd go, all the girls were there. It's like, this is sweet. But I feel, I don't feel different in the, I feel different in the mountains, in the fresh air.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:02Cameron Hanes?

  Having this, whether it's the sun on my face, the rain on my face, whatever, that's feeling.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:08Cameron Hanes?

  I don't, the gyms aren't more artificial, obviously.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's manufactured.

• 40:12Cameron Hanes?

  It's manufactured. I, I love, you know, just the life that the outdoors gives you or, or or how it impacts my life, I guess. But um, it's all good though. It's all, it's all benefit. It's like, if you can't, some people live in cities, they, they can't get outside.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:29Cameron Hanes?

  They're gonna work all day. It's fine. Just go work out, get on the treadmill. It's all good. But yeah, I totally get what you're saying too about.

• 40:38Cameron Hanes?

  You know, with that, with the running journey, nobody is born great. A great runner. I mean, it's like that first run for everybody. It's probably gonna be tough.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  And it's one of those things like, you know, not having a drink for, for 21 years. You start and it's like, all right, you're never going to have another drink. Like you can't think that way. You have to do like one step at a time. It's the same with running where you're like, well, I want to run a marathon. It's like, well, we probably should then go outside and try to do a mile, right? And it's, it's so daunting. And so you just have to chunk it out like little bits. And amazing when you get a little momentum, you look back and you're like, look at where we are now.

• 41:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  And so, yeah. Any tips for a new runner to figure out how to survive here?

• 41:18Cameron Hanes?

  Um, tips for a new runner? No, because I, I, other than just getting out there.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Time on feet.

• 41:25Cameron Hanes?

  Just time on feet. Yeah. It's like, I, I just, you know, I think Jelly Roll has a great attitude about it. Where he had a thing, and I've said it on here before too, but your, your self-talk. So even when he was over 500 pounds and there was no running in any of the runs he would do. He would say he's going to go out on his run, even though he's walking and have to take a smoke break during the, during the run. He would say, I'm going on my run.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:56Cameron Hanes?

  So he was telling himself, he's, he was telling his body, we're running. And he wasn't yet, but that, th- those are the words he was using. And so it's just, that's just a perfect example. Then he would get out and like coming from his house is downhill to the left, uphill to the right. He said he'd always go down, down, down, which most people would do. But he said he decided that, you know, he'd been taking the easy road his whole life, which is how he got to the bad position he was in. So he starts going out his driveway and going uphill to the hard road. And just little stuff like that, dude. It doesn't have to, you, your life's not going to change overnight. Um, I mean, it might, but mine never did.

• 42:38Cameron Hanes?

  But every day you make decisions like that. It's not even, well, it's not even every day because there's fifty decisions you can make like that all day. Are you making the right decision? Are you making an easy decision or the hard decision? Are you making the right or the wrong? Are you, you know, are you sabotaging kind of your goal by doing this? So there's all these, and we know.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:02Cameron Hanes?

  We know whether you're making the right decision or not. You can lie to yourself. We can justify all sorts of shit to ourselves. But when you look in the mirror at night, you know.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  You know if you did the right thing.

• 43:12Cameron Hanes?

  So just make the right decision all day. And it's like, you're not going to feel good about it because sometimes, like even me, I'll wrestle, I'll consciously think that I wasn't going to do the right thing there. I had to stop myself to, and, and really think about what is going on right here? And so we know, I know, I'm, I'm still, I still struggle every day with like, am I being the person I'm intended to be?

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, because motivation's fleeting, right? So sometimes you just, you'd make the decision to do it. And I don't think I've ever regretted doing a workout. I've never, you know, there's those days where like, I really don't want to today. I'm fortunate, I feel like where I've gotten past a lot of that, where it's harder for me not to work out. It's like, I feel worse when I don't. But that time where you're like, oh, something maybe doesn't feel right, or I'm a little tired, or I got some excuse that I want to give myself with the kids or work or whatever it might be. You make the time, you do it. You never go, man, I wish I didn't do that workout. I try not to let it like impede my time with work or my family to the best of my ability. So it ends up being like early mornings or late nights. So it's on, on my time, like shorting your sleep or doing those things. So I don't, don't feel guilty like I'm missing out on my daughter's footsteps or something like that.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  But I, I've never been like, man, I shouldn't have done that workout. I'm always like, even if it was a crappy one, even if like I just moved a little bit, maybe get in the sauna, get and break a sweat. And I was like, that was better than nothing. And it's like, if you can just do those little things every day, and I feel like it's like that with supplements. Like you're not going to take a pre-workout and that one workout's going to change your life. But if you keep just putting those pennies in the bank and get consistent with it, you look back and you're like, wow, I've made so much progress by being consistent. And I find if I'm taking those supplements, I make better choices with my diet too. Because I'm like, well, if I'm going to put these supplements in my system, why would I go and then grab this crappy food that's going to make me feel terrible? It's like I'm going backwards. So when I have all those things, it feels like it's clicking.

• 45:06Cameron Hanes?

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• 45:51Cameron Hanes?

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• 46:30Cameron Hanes?

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• 47:15Cameron Hanes?

  Grizzly is built for that grind. Right now, you can get 20% off at grizzlycoolers.com with the code KEEPHAMMERING. And that's all one word. And I'm not going to spell it. Keep hammering. Again, keep hammering, one word for 20% off. Don't roll with weak gear. Go Grizzly.

• 47:37Cameron Hanes?

  I think, you know, that reminded me of something too. It's every time I travel, and I don't know if this is just me, or like I said, I'm, you know, so dialed in with the diet, but I was thinking, like, when you're thinking about even crappy workouts are better than no workouts, and then I was thinking about how sensitive our bodies can be. So, to your point there, even a shitty workout is better than nothing, right? And because what it gives you mentally, it's like, okay, I at least did something, right? So that's a win. But also, and your body is sensitive to that. Your body and your mind are tied together. So if you can make your mind or feel better about the decision you

• 48:21Cameron Hanes?

  make, your body's going to respond, right? So it's like, I'm always like, it's a self-talk, it's like, being intentional about, why am I doing, what am I doing? But also, when I travel, like, when you get so dialed in, and like, all these supplements matter, all these decisions matter, it's proven to me every single time, I'm, like, I try to eat perfect, you know, I don't drink, I try to buy, if I'm gonna buy something at the airport, it's gonna be peanuts, right? It's like, proteins, like, you can't hard up a peanut, but they do. I do this for like, a few days, a short trip, come back, I'm five pounds heavier, just from, it's just different food. It's not quite

• 49:05Cameron Hanes?

  the quality, it's probably got more seed, I don't even know what, seed oils, I don't know, but my body is sensitive to something changed. So it's just like, that's just a precursor to, like, how much it all matters, I think, is kind of what I've learned. It's like, I thought, oh, I'm getting close enough, I can eat this, I can get away with this. You can, but you're not gonna be at your highest level, because your body notices, it knows, it responds differently. So it's like, we think about all these little things, and we're talking about these ingredients, these life decisions, these workout decisions, it all matters. It does. And sometimes I think we... We try to convince ourselves that ah, it's not that big a deal.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  It throws you off quick, like eating different foods, like you can trigger a bunch of inflammation and that has this like, you know, downstream effect on a lot of things. That's why you see a lot of our products come in grab and go. We have like stick packs of a lot of our products. That way they can be in your pack whether you're out in the mountain, you can throw them in your backpack if you're traveling that way. You always have access to your greens. You can grab a protein bar. You know, you grab the big stick, our 20 grams of protein in that meat stick is awesome.

• 50:14Cameron Hanes?

  I know, it's good.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  It's the most protein on the market. It's delicious. I keep like 10 of those in my bag at all time. Like the kids eat them, I eat them. Like I don't have an excuse for those.

• 50:21Cameron Hanes?

  And there's nothing like crazy in here, right?

• 50:23Speaker 01

  There's nothing bad in there at all. No, they're great. Yeah, they're super clean. We have added six grams of collagen to get that nice protein claim. So you're getting a lot of benefits, not just from the protein helping rebuild muscle, but it's also giving you collagen peptides to help support your, your joints and ligament health as well. So it's like you can feel good about eating that. And it's all whole muscle meat, you know, it's not a bunch of filler junk in there.

• 50:44Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  So I'm like always stuffed with electrolytes, meat sticks, protein bars, because it's tough. There's when you're traveling, I'm back and forth to Utah like every other week. So there's always an excuse for me. And I was like, I was feeling that the first like six months, I was like, this isn't working great for my, my physical being. Like I'm not getting my training in like, because I have this gym at home. So that's like my, that's my dojo. Like that's where I have my setup. I can know how to get my workouts in. And then I'd be traveling. And so now what I do is I really emphasize running in Utah because it's, it's just a beautiful place to run.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  And I live right next to this rail line. So you can run for hundreds of miles straight as an arrow. And there's just no excuse. It's always beautiful out there. But then you come back and you're back and forth. And it was like, oh, I have to prepare. I have to like mentally and physically prepare for these changes that are coming my way. If I don't have the right stuff, the right equipment, the right foods and nutrition, I'm gonna fail.

• 51:34Cameron Hanes?

  Gotta be intentional.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, then it's on me. So like, I can't blame the travel. Like I signed up for that deal. So okay, I gotta do that. And I still have goals. I think that's like, you know, most people are juggling that. And I try to remind myself like, hey, everybody's got stuff in the way. Nobody's just sitting around all day with nothing to do other than just train and have fun. You gotta make it work. You know, I also want to have time with my family. I also want to do a good job at work. I also want to be present for my friends and family. And that requires like effort, you know, just like anything worth doing.

• 52:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you know, I mean, with your bodybuilding.com days. They made famous like the traveling with the chicken breasts.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 52:10Cameron Hanes?

  All the little cooler stuff.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  We've come a long way. Do you remember the six pack bags? It was like a cooler bag that looked like it had abs on it and had all these little like

• 52:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  trays for your food. And I, I spent a lot of time with a lot of people that kept a lot of prepared foods, zip locks of just chicken.

• 52:24Cameron Hanes?

  And you know, why, why'd they do that?

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Because they had goals.

• 52:27Cameron Hanes?

  Because it mattered.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it mattered. It really does. Yeah. When you're traveling and you're going to these shows and expos, yeah, it's like burgers and fries and you're going to spend this prep of 12, 14, 16, 18 weeks and then throw it all away. Like absolutely nuts. You're going to eat chicken out of a bag.

• 52:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Um, and you know, I was telling you a little bit, we're coming out with some meals that we're pretty excited about on the, the freeze dried meal side. And this is a, a new use case that I'm really excited about for what you're talking about is one, these meals are shelf stable for 15 years. Right? So there, you can have them ready to go.

• 53:00Cameron Hanes?

  Good prepper stuff.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Prepper stuff, right? But these are like real ingredients. So all, all stuff that you can read, it's made with, uh, you know, homemade noodles. It's got real chicken, real vegetables in there. So if you would eat it, whether you're out in the mountain or at home, it's going to be like eating real food because it is real food. But we're also making macro friendly ones. So you have these ones that are, you know, 500 calories that have 30, 40 grams of protein and at low fat, moderate carbs. It aligns perfectly with my diet. So I have like no more excuses. All you do is add hot water and you have a great nutritious meal in 10 minutes. So I'm like really excited that selfishly. I'm like, I have no more excuses. I have healthy food no matter where I am, to where I'm traveling. And we can obviously service our customers with a great product that I feel superior than what's on the market. And those are coming out this summer. So those are, those are pretty exciting. I can't wait for you to try them and see what you think.

• 53:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, that, that sounds really good. I mean, I'm, there's, those meals I've gotten, you know, just in general have gotten, I used to do MREs back in the days.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  It's come a long way.

• 53:59Cameron Hanes?

  Who are not good. And then you start getting, like I said, this chicken Alfredo, I could, it feels like you could eat that every night when you get home. It's so good, but at home it's not quite as good, but out there, man.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, you'd be surprised. I've been serving it to my family as like a secret just to see the reaction

• 54:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  um, from them. And I've snuck it past them quite a few times. So it's real food. It tastes good.

• 54:21Cameron Hanes?

  Cause kids, yeah, kids can tell.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Oh, it's, yeah, they, they tell me when I overcooked the steak right away. Yeah, they're not shy on critiquing the chef.

• 54:28Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I just know when I'd get a McDonald's hamburger and remember those little tiny flakes of onions. I don't want those on there.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 54:35Cameron Hanes?

  So it's like even the little things. So yeah, kids, like see that little green, whatever that is? That's an onion.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Get it out of here.

• 54:44Cameron Hanes?

  So yeah, if, if you're getting them by kids, that's, that's good.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:48Cameron Hanes?

  Um, yeah. And I was going to say too, it's like, uh, like as sensitive as your body can be is here's one thing. Like this whole week is like, we're kind of been kicking my ass this week. I've been in the same body weight since Friday and like not, it, it's just weird how your body. It just, your body's so sensitive and it's just like, I cannot, it cannot, my body weight is not moving. And I've put in over a hundred miles this week, so it's over 14 miles a day. And I couldn't, couldn't run for a while because I had surgery on my mouth, but uh, so I was out there for hours and hours and hours and no, no weight loss.

• 55:30Cameron Hanes?

  And it's just, it's just crazy how, um, it just proves to me over and over how, how much everything ma- makes a difference. How it matters, how our bodies respond to everything, either positive or positively or negatively. And we just try to learn along the way and make good decisions and uh,

• 55:48Speaker 01

  You gotta throw a curve ball once in a while. I feel like your body adapts to like whatever the new stimulus is.

• 55:52Cameron Hanes?

  Probably, yeah, there's a set point, I think on your body.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 55:55Cameron Hanes?

  And I think my, my weight right now is up my body's set point and to get past it.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  You gotta change something.

• 56:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I was curious. So, so what's your workout now? Like when you're in your dojo, what do you do?

• 56:06Speaker 01

  It's a lot of hybrid stuff. I do a lot of like heavy lifting mixed in with various cardio. So we'll do like a lot of rounds training where it'll be three to five minute rounds of an activity. Barbell work along with sprinting and running and rowing and all that kind of stuff. So your elevated heart rate pretty much the whole time, just kind of ramped up. And then I'll do more of a, of really focused strength day. And then I have a run focused day. So I've kind of like this hybrid day where I do a little bit of everything. I do one where it's just straight up lifting where we're going to lift heavy. We're going to take breaks in between sets so we can recover and feel like we can get after it. That's like a three to five rep range and when I go heavier, um, work up to that. Then we're doing like the more mixed, you know, it's much higher rep stuff, just burning it out, trying to redline as much as we can.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  And then two types of run days, I'll do a longer run or I'll do like some tempo work.

• 56:54Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  But it's it's evolved over years where for I'm still that fat guy inside, like he's outside eating cookies in the park and not waiting for me, right? And so for me, it's like, as long as I'm interested and excited to do it, I'm I'm good.

• 57:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  And I think throwing in some variability, because if I do the same type of training, I'm the same way, my all of a sudden my weight just kind of stays. And I'm like, all right, well, we got to mix it up either. I gotta go back to like an intermittent fasting protocol where I'm shortening my feeding window and kind of throw a little curve ball to the system there metabolically. Or I need to ramp up my training in some way. And either I just need to do like a ton of running or a lot more lifting and just kind of, I don't know, change it up for my body in some way.

• 57:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  And then I feel like, oh, my plateau is gone and I'll smash through it. And then mentally, I think for me, when I run a lot, my weight goes down, which is good. I get really lean, but my strength comes down. And then I get to that point where I'm like, well, I don't want to lose all of that. I still like being able to handle certain weights on any given day of the week. And I get worried that I'm going to lose that. So it's a little bit of back and forth, but the general structure is, you know, five, six days of training a week with two kind of like recovery active days. And those sometimes get pressed into like real workouts, but there's there's not a lot of days off.

• 58:02Cameron Hanes?

  I see. Yeah, that that seems like, yeah, that's a great schedule.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  It's fun.

• 58:07Cameron Hanes?

  A lot of variety.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  It's it's it's like my biggest hobby too. So it's something I enjoy doing. It's something I train with my wife a lot. So it's like something we get to do together, which has always been fun. And then back in the on it days, I mean, we had this awesome gym attached to the headquarters. So there was like no excuse. And what was awesome, when you're building a brand like that, to have on the other side of the wall of you, you could hear the gym just like bumping the energy of that place is like through the roof. So it was like, man, I just want to get in there. And that really opened me up to a variety of training with steel maces and kettlebells and things that I had never used before. That at first I was like, oh, this seems weird. And then you you start using them and your body moves better. You don't have as many pains and all that like offset load and unconventional training, I found I was getting injured less.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  It seemed like it would get injured more looking at those movements, like those seem awkward.

• 58:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  But I think when you put yourself in awkward positions more continuously, you actually respond better to it.

• 58:59Cameron Hanes?

  Durability.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, way more durable. So I try to just whatever keeps me interested. And lately it's been the running. I think I just responded so well to it. And there's some sort of like. It's like the the younger me that couldn't do it. I'm like showing him that we can do it. And I'm like this weird moment out there with myself of like really testing myself and pushing a little further. And it's very rewarding. So as long as it's rewarding, I'm into it, you know? I've done some boxing. I've done some different things, powerlifting, and I can put on weight. I mean, I can get up to two twenty five pretty easy and I can take down calories. So I never have.

• 59:32Cameron Hanes?

  You got abs though?

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Not at two twenty five. You can kind of go like, oh, maybe they're there. I'm better here, like closer to two, then then the abs are popping really good. And I think for me, when I lose those, that's that's hard. I think just being the fatter guy, you know, like you see that you don't want to lose that. And they're hard to keep, man, you know, and you're not, I don't know genetically disposed to have them. Easily, it's like, it's tough when they go away.

• 59:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, definitely. I hear that. Um, yeah, and it is tough to keep them. Um, I was curious, back in the day, like, you know, because I used to train with Nick the trainer dude, Eric McCorma, or you know Eric?

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  I know Eric.

• 1:00:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  His workouts are terrible.

• 1:00:09Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, my gosh. Brutal. I used to come here every night.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Oh, he broke me in this workout and I had like this, like my brain and body disconnected, you know? And he's talking me through it and it was, it was like an emotional experience that I had.

• 1:00:25Cameron Hanes?

  What were you doing? Do you remember?

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  We did all body weight stuff. So I was like, this is, I can do this. This isn't going to be a problem. And I think maybe I got a little cocky with it. And so he was just in my ear the whole time. And you're going through these movements, just like an incredible amount of air squats and lunges. And then he took us through this ab circuit. And of all the things, the abs broke me. And it was just like.

• 1:00:45Cameron Hanes?

  The app, yeah, bicycles.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know better than anybody. And I was like, golly, I can't believe you broke me doing abs, you know?

• 1:00:55Cameron Hanes?

  His ab circuit, dude, it'll break anybody.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he's in your ear and he's like, you know, think of something. I forget what he said. He triggered me and it made me think about like this emotional thing and it just like lost it. And then you're training even harder, but then it just all shut down. I mean, that guy will take you to the deep waters and back.

• 1:01:12Cameron Hanes?

  He, the the goal is failure as many times as possible. So whatever movement you're doing, you do it till you can't do it.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:21Cameron Hanes?

  And I don't think most people realize what going to failure really is.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Most people don't realize they're not training hard until you hang out with a guy like that.

• 1:01:29Cameron Hanes?

  And he will, you know, the goal is to fail over and over and over because that's where your body responds.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:01:35Cameron Hanes?

  Cause your body has to get strong. Oh, oh, you're gonna have us do this? Okay.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  We better build some more muscle.

• 1:01:40Cameron Hanes?

  And, uh, yeah, he's, he's the best at that. But the point was, I was gonna say is like back in the day, we used to, they were bodybuilders. They did the shows. I never did. But we used to lift together all the time. I used to love to lift, but it used to be the carb cycling. So it would be five days of say 50 to 75 grams. And then the weekends or whatever, two days would be, you'd go up to three or 400 grams of carbs. So you get that metabolism cranking.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:05Cameron Hanes?

  You, you take those carbs away, your body's like, holy shit, I thought we were, we were working here. So now it has to use fat.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:14Cameron Hanes?

  To, to burn. And you do that carb cycling, like, cause 50 to 75 grams of carbs.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Nothing. It's very low.

• 1:02:22Cameron Hanes?

  It feels like you're starving to death.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Cameron Hanes?

  And, uh,

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  What you do for an apple, you know?

• 1:02:27Cameron Hanes?

  Or like, I used to, if I was so depleted and I had to go lift at night, I used to be like those one little oatmeal packs.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:35Cameron Hanes?

  Like a little instant oatmeal. That, if you just take, that, that's what, that's why like this whole training and giving your body what it needs in an adult ultra race. Is you can tell because I would do that one little pack of is like 90 calories oatmeal package. And it's like, it's like I gave myself jet fuel.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  You like fill up your muscles?

• 1:02:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I got energy. I got veins popping because we have no, no carbs. There's no veins.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  They're flat. Everything's flat.

• 1:03:04Cameron Hanes?

  And when you lift, I wanna see veins.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:06Cameron Hanes?

  I wanna, I wanna see some, I wanna, I wanna pop. Okay? But with no carbs, it's not gonna happen. Well, one little oatmeal packet just showed me that, God, these carbs, this, this fuel, this what we're putting in our body is like, it matters.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  The bodybuilders, I feel like figured a lot of that stuff out for us years ago.

• 1:03:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yes.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Um, and now you're seeing it put into practice in other ways and, and they do it to an extreme, right? To look a certain way to be. On on stage.

• 1:03:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  In this moment, right? As an athlete, you want to be able to perform all the time, but there's so much to learn from what bodybuilder, I think paved the way for supplementation for a lot of different types of training. But then you mix that with the endurance sports and all of a sudden you got, you know, rocket fuel. If you do it right.

• 1:03:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Because you're right. Yeah. If you're depleted in one area or you're deficient in another, it'll affect you in ways you weren't expecting.

• 1:03:53Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  And you have to get in front of it. And so there's so much more science and literature and just information out there now of people that have went through it all and tested it. That, yeah, finding the right protocol for you, testing it yourself, because what works for you might not work for me.

• 1:04:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Depending on age, performance levels, whatever it might be. And you got to figure that stuff out in your training, not in real time when you're trying to perform.

• 1:04:14Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  But yeah, the the carb cycling is crazy. I've watched guys go on stage and be flat, like they they got their timing wrong. And then they had their cheat meal after like it's and then they look incredible. I'm like, you look better now than you did earlier, you know?

• 1:04:28Cameron Hanes?

  After they suffered.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:30Cameron Hanes?

  They suffered so much. Oh, it's so brutal, but yeah, every time they get, they go have their cheat meal, the big burger and whatever. And then they're just huge.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, garden hose veins, you know, everything. Yeah.

• 1:04:42Cameron Hanes?

  Meanwhile, they're on on stage is flat. I feel terrible for them because that so so much dedication.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  So much sacrifice too in that sport.

• 1:04:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  It's it's so much deprivation and it's so mental, just like anything, I guess. I mean, endurance is the same way too. Your body can usually do more than you think and you just have to power through the mental block of your brain saying, stop, stop, please stop.

• 1:05:03Cameron Hanes?

  What's crazy is like when you get in that, again, I haven't done the shows, but I know what it's like to to walk by and and even see one potato chip and not and say, no.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:18Cameron Hanes?

  One, one potato chip sitting on the counter. Anyone in the rate in regular life is going to eat that potato chip.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  It's tough doing it in the normal world, right? And when I first really started losing the weight and getting into it, I I quickly transitioned into this job at bodybuilding.com. And so everybody was into it. It was such a cool place to work. Everybody was very like minded. So you had a lot of people that were packing meals. And eating tilapia and broccoli for lunch. That kind of stuff. And, and we at the time had a frozen meal solution, which I feel like bodybuilding.com in a lot of ways. And Ryan DeLuca, who founded that company, was very forward thinking in ways that people weren't even addressing where that, that meal delivery system that he created back then would be an absolute destroyer today. But like you were eating all these super clean, super macro friendly bland foods, but everybody was. So it wasn't hard.

• 1:06:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  It was hard, but it wasn't as hard as going to a regular office.

• 1:06:09Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  McDonald's and donuts and this and that. And you're, you're having to be the, the weird guy. Where you were the weirdo if you were eating the junk at that place. So it made it like socially acceptable, which made it way easier. It was a, it was a cool place to be around.

• 1:06:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I just, I just liked that what we learn along the way, because I know there was a time in endurance sports where keto was, was like, if you could be ketogenic, you could be fueled by keto that, or you're fat adapted essentially. As we talked about in marathons, like you have to every thirty five, forty minutes, you gotta take in carbs, right? Well, in an ultra, if you're doing a two hundred mile ultra, you can't take in carbs every thirty minutes. You can't pack that much shit with you, right? So the, what people I had a lot of success with is like, let's be fat adapted. And I tried it. I did crazy mountain hundred in, in Montana. And I'm like, Mike McKnight was helping me because he was like this fat adapted athlete.

• 1:07:07Cameron Hanes?

  And he was like no carb runner on, on Instagram. And so I was like, oh, this might be an unlock. I could just burn fat and I want to take calories. My body will perform better. But, uh, now it's like kind of switched again because now then, have you ever heard of bicarb? So basically bicarb is just baking soda.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:07:30Cameron Hanes?

  But runners are using it.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  Oh, I have heard about that. Yeah.

• 1:07:33Cameron Hanes?

  Cause it can just shuttle in fuel fast, right? So it, it changed from like, cause endurance sports are different than like, say on the track. Where it's, you're not going at that pace. So you don't need to get fuel burning as fast. Like so, so fat, even though slower burning can work if you're doing a eleven minute mile.

• 1:07:58Cameron Hanes?

  If you're doing a five minute mile.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  That happens.

• 1:08:01Cameron Hanes?

  You need carbs.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:03Cameron Hanes?

  And so there was like this change is like, okay, well, how fast are you running these ultras? What type of fuel do you need type thing? Well, now it's like then bicarb came on and now it's like some guys they they've they're stealing from the Tour de France, basically, and they're over one hundred and fifty grams of carbs an hour.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:08:21Cameron Hanes?

  Which is a ton of carbs.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  That is a lot.

• 1:08:24Cameron Hanes?

  On the bike, you can get away with a little more. Your stomach isn't jiggling, right? Your your legs are just hammering. Running is harder to get one hundred and fifty grams, but the point is, it's like now they're testing all that to see, you know, they're doing the lactate test on the air to see what their levels are, but there's so much science into it. It's just like it's super fast. I just love following all of it and trying to learn and to see, you know, I try it all. I do I do it all because I'm like, I want to be at my best. I want to be, what do I need to be the very best I've ever been? So to me, I I just can't get enough of it.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting. It's like what you're doing out there in these extreme conditions then feeds kind of the the mainstream gym goer too, right? It's kind of like what you see in racing where you'll see technology come out of F1 that gets trickled into a regular automobile years later, right? It's kind of the same thing. You look to the bodybuilders or you look to the extreme athletes that are testing these things that are on they're already on the fringe, so they're pushing it further than anybody else has. And then it's like the learnings that come from that then get adapted into kind of regular day supplementation.

• 1:09:29Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  And that's really cool. So like, yeah, being the guinea pig, if you have the mentality for it and the stomach for it, right? You can find a lot about yourself and what really does work, but you got to put the time into it. Most people aren't willing, so we we thank you for for being the guinea pig for us.

• 1:09:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it it's just, you know, it it is a process. I know like Truett, he ran C I M. He's trying to, he did break two thirty, but. He thought that, okay, the, the big thing was carb load. So he tried to get 600 grams of carbs in the night before. Then he was taking all these gels during the race. His stomach revolted and he had to stop dur- during the marathon, like come to a complete stop because his stomach was hurting so bad. Still got 229 something.

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 1:10:15Cameron Hanes?

  But, uh, that didn't work. So like, that was an example where we're trying, sometimes we mi- we miss and like.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  Experimentation.

• 1:10:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you learn a tough lesson, but that's like with this apex line, I'm really excited just to get this dialed in. And it's kind of like, you know, Tru is doing the same thing with, he's got one of his companies that are, that are here. He's doing his own gel, but we're just, we're just trying to be our best.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Cameron Hanes?

  You know, so like, we're so lucky. I'm lucky that I'm with Mountain Ops, he's with whoever, but people, these partners that, that are on the same page. And it's just like, yeah, we want you to be your best, you know, or, or like Mountain Ops wants me to, to be successful.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:55Cameron Hanes?

  So you're helping me.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:56Cameron Hanes?

  And hopefully everybody else can benefit from that also. But man, what, what a fun time.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Well, and how blessed are we to work and be involved in any way with products and companies that help people?

• 1:11:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? That's something that like, I've never had the Sunday scaries because it's like, one, I was the customer and I still am. But it's like, we're helping people on their journey, whether it's to be a better, you know, endurance athlete or to, to have a better experience on the mountain while they're hunting, or to just be like a better dad and be able to play with their kids and keep up.

• 1:11:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  The life they have going on versus like selling some sort of widget that goes inside some machine.

• 1:11:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  You know, does whatever, or potentially even is bad for people. You're, you know, you're making sodas or junk food. Like those are fun and they have a place, but there's something really rewarding about working on products that help people unlock more potential.

• 1:11:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  And I think for me, it had such a big impact on my life. It's very easy for me to think about that 73% of our customers that had never taken a supplement, right? Like they're just getting off the couch for the first time and that's hard. I've been there. And it's, you know, easy to look to someone like you and be like, that's so. So inspiring, but it's so far away. And I think what we're doing helps close that gap a little bit like, okay, well, let's take one step at a time. You know, we're there with you. I think the community piece is a really big aspect that a lot of people miss is like, you know, we're talking about eating at bodybuilding.com's office was easy. But when you work at a regular place and everybody else is eating trash, you're so alone. It's already it's such a lonely journey to like, make those a lot of times, even in your own family, you'll have

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  your spouse or the kids like nobody else is doing it except you. And they're like, well, you're the one that needs to lose weight like we're fine. But then like they're eating mac and cheese and you're sitting over there with your chicken and broccoli, you know, it's kind of sad. So it's nice to have, you know, one, like the content that you put out that people can connect with and be inspired by and feel like they're not alone. You know, Mountain Ops has a community online that people can connect and share their like experience, strength and hope to help them take the next step. And when new people come into the fold, you watch that community rally around somebody because you we're all figuring it out. And a lot of people have been through maybe those experiences of like having to go to a family party or a reunion or something like that and have to be the guy with their Tupperware. Like here's the tools you can do to do it or, you know, it's

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  it's interesting as someone that didn't grow up with it coming naturally to me, I can really relate to those that are struggling with it. And for me, it's so fulfilling to be able to make products that work that are safe. There's so many of our products I give to my kids, you know what I mean? That I'm like, that's cool that they like it. The big sticks. I mean, everybody's eating those sticks. Yeah, yeah. It feels good.

• 1:13:34Cameron Hanes?

  They're great. Um.

• 1:13:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. What was I gonna say?

• 1:13:42Cameron Hanes?

  Oh yeah. I mean, I was just gonna say Mountain Ops has always done a really good job on the community aspect. Just like get from helping with the meals to just like building that community. I just think that that's been one of the strengths of Mountain Ops is is just, you know, getting people on board. Educating them, as you said, from the ground level up. It's been, yeah, it's been amazing to see. I I love that part of it. I was curious, like, when you talked about. So how how did you grow up or was was your exercise wasn't part of your family or what?

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Both my parents worked out. My dad introduced me to like working out in the basement. You know, just kind of like those old plastic weights filled with sand and whatever.

• 1:14:24Cameron Hanes?

  Eight point eight pounds.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he would, you know, he had a Nordic track and he'd be grinding away on that stuff. But it just, I don't know, I didn't take to it as much as he did. And then when it came back around, I had a base kind of level of understanding. So I could kind of dive in, but it just wasn't really how I grew up.

• 1:14:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  And I think I was just one of those kids that found sports later in life. I had I had to get glasses, right? And when you're trying to play sports with glasses can be really tricky. Like I played hockey and things and it's like they're fogging up while you're trying to skate. So it's just like, it was always a little bit harder for me. And then once, you know, I got contacts and started to be able to make other decisions for myself. It kind of unlocked that and was able to to go all in. And I think, you know, battling with alcoholism, that was a bigger priority for me was being out and partying and drinking than it was to like take care of myself.

• 1:15:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  And so once that was removed, it like cleared the path and I had idle hands. I had all this time on my hands now that I was, you know, was spent doing all these other things. Or it's like, I gotta find a new hobby that's not doing that and the reward of it. And also, I think for me, someone that used to love drinking, taking supplements was really cool. Cause it was like, oh, I can take this thing and feel something. I can take this thing and have it help me in a way. So I kind of like replaced that. I just started experimenting with a lot of things to see what my body responded to. And it just kind of got me hooked on that way. And like you guys just started experimenting, like I've tried so many diets, keto diets. I've done, you know, different protocols around intermittent fasting or carb loading. Like I've tried just different things to see what I like and keeps me engaged and doing the right thing or how I respond to it.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Like I find it interesting. It's fun to me.

• 1:15:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, it's no different than when a new bow comes out, I want to shoot more.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, tip her around, yeah.

• 1:16:00Cameron Hanes?

  So it's like, yeah, we like, we like just checking stuff out and learning more. And I think that the key with seeing how your body responds and like pushing those, either it's like new lifting limits, you know, new PRs, whatever, new running PRs, that's cool.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you get you get connected with people, I feel like. I've been really fortunate in my career to have access to people that most people just see on YouTube or something like that. And I've been able to work out with with people in the in the space that are exciting to learn from. And it's like, it's not lost on me as a fan first, to someone that was on the outside of the space that's now in. It's exciting to me to like, have access to that. And it's not lost on me. And I don't take it for granted. So like, if I can get a few minutes with someone that can give me some, some really cool tidbits on how to get a little bit better, I try to soak that up and make use of it because not everybody gets a chance to do that. So it's been a weird world that I've somehow found myself involved in. And it's like, it's like a playground. It's fun.

• 1:16:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Well, no, that's, that's exciting. It's a, it's a good time. Hey, do you have questions for us?

• 1:17:05Speaker 02

  I do.

• 1:17:06Cameron Hanes?

  You're, we'll probably have to cut these out.

• 1:17:10Speaker 02

  Actually, I have an interesting one to start with. See, you guys are just as perplexed by this as I am.

• 1:17:17Cameron Hanes?

  These are gonna, these are gonna be retarded, by the way. So just get ready.

• 1:17:21Speaker 02

  That they found that that actually exercising, general exercise doesn't burn any more calories than if you were to just sit around.

• 1:17:30Cameron Hanes?

  Whatever.

• 1:17:32Cameron Hanes?

  Who's they?

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  Studies have shown.

• 1:17:35Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  I mean, there's.

• 1:17:37Cameron Hanes?

  Four out of five dinner survey.

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. But yeah, so apparently what they found is that the body compensates by the energy you are using by exercising, by reducing energy usage in other areas in your body. So at the end of the day, your total caloric usage is roughly the same as what it would be if you didn't exercise. Now, more muscle mass, obviously, burns more calories, your, your daily allotment would be more, but just general exercise doesn't.

• 1:18:08Cameron Hanes?

  Is there a question?

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  I wouldn't know what you guys thought about that.

• 1:18:11Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 1:18:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. What do you think?

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  I mean, maybe there's something in there. I think our body does like homeostasis, right? Like what you're talking about with your set point, there's probably something that, you know, your body will preserve energy to save it for something else if you're exercising or something, maybe. I don't know. I used to sit on the couch a lot and play video games and drink beers all day and I definitely didn't burn as many calories as I do now. So I don't know. I'm going to call BS on that one.

• 1:18:39Cameron Hanes?

  I think it's, are they trying to say like, if you're blind, you can smell really good?

• 1:18:45Cameron Hanes?

  Isn't that kind of how it works? Yeah.

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  It's big pharma.

• 1:18:50Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, all I know is, so if I, so when I did Coca-Cola, what did I burn? Like 36,000 calories?

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You could have just sat on the couch.

• 1:19:02Cameron Hanes?

  So I could have just laid in that bed in the hotel room and burned?

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  It makes no sense to me personally. Well, how do you feel about like, you know, GLP ones? I've had conversations with people where they feel like it's cheating.

• 1:19:15Cameron Hanes?

  Is this the Ozempic stuff?

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:19Cameron Hanes?

  I don't, if, what I've been seeing is like the Ozempics face. It doesn't look great.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:25Cameron Hanes?

  It doesn't look like it's good for you.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's probably something there.

• 1:19:28Cameron Hanes?

  If somebody needs a jumpstart, like if, you know, you know, Jelly Roll, he's done it all naturally. But if somebody was like at five or 600 pounds and maybe that'd help them get a couple hundred off to get some momentum going, I don't know. I don't know what that, would that be a positive? Feels like it, but I don't know. That's kind of like a one off.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  I, I, I'm kind of into it. I feel like if there's things that help people start down the path, like you're saying, okay, this is going to jumpstart me or it's going to help me head towards where I'm trying to go. Just like, you know, years and years ago, we weren't talking about testosterone replacement therapy like we are now. There's more accessibility to stuff like that and peptides and whatever else it might be. I'm kind of all for most of it. As long as it's done under the right supervision because like you want to be the best version of yourself, right? So you're going to optimize your intake, whatever that might be. Be supplementation, nutrition, peptides and things to make sure you can get to the levels that you want to be. And I think we live in an age where we have access to stuff that just wasn't available before. So I think, I think it overall, it's a net positive.

• 1:20:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  I think there's other ways to go about it, but most of those people wouldn't have taken that, that step without it. So it's like, I think it's a step in the right direction.

• 1:20:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  When you look at like the obesity crisis in our country, I think if it's helping that, that's a good thing.

• 1:20:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I get that. I just, I just don't know what the side effects of that. I don't know.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  Long term, yeah. Like, is it something you have to do for the rest of your life?

• 1:20:56Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Are you gonna, are you gonna develop better habits and use it, or use it as a crutch forever? And I think if you have a plan to like, then get off and then do a kind of a normal protocol that allows you to be at a healthy weight, then I think it's cool.

• 1:21:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I was just, I didn't know, cause remember how the stuff on stapling was a thing?

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:14Cameron Hanes?

  And then everybody, they lose the weight, then this comes back.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:18Cameron Hanes?

  You know, so I just didn't know. Sometimes, there's been success stories too. So I'm sure it's worked great, but not always. But I guess that's anything.

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  It's, it's abstinence in any form, right? Like if, if you're gonna, you know, do some sort of program that helps you not drink anymore, you can take away the drink, but if you don't work on the reasons why you were drinking so much, if you don't do that other work with it, you'll just kind of go back.

• 1:21:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  I think it's the same. Like if you're not working on better habits or learning more about nutrition, or starting to exercise, yeah, as soon as you take away the, the Ozempic or whatever it is, you probably go right back to where you are.

• 1:21:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  But I, I would hope that most people are using it more like a launchpad.

• 1:21:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  You know, but just like anything, it's gonna be abused in, in some way.

• 1:22:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. No, that's, that's.

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  I still think you can't sit on the couch and burn as many calories as working out. I'm not buying that at all.

• 1:22:07Cameron Hanes?

  What else you got, James?

• 1:22:08Speaker 02

  Um, so coming from another successful brand, what's one thing that's kind of a constant that a brand needs to find that success?

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I've experienced this three times now, both at bodybuilding and on it. And, and Mountain Apps have this as community. That's the differentiator. And I think when you stand for something like that. There's a lot of supplements on the market. There's a lot of pre-workouts. There's a lot of protein powders. There's, you know, maybe some have cleaner ingredients, or some have more caffeine, or some have more efficaciously dosed formulas or something, but by and large, they get to be very similar after a while. I think we have access to a lot of it. So what do you stand for? What are you doing to connect with somebody differently? Mountain Ops connected with a consumer base that nobody was really talking to about health and fitness in the hunter. And I think that that registered really well, that clicked. And I feel like it's an audience that's like, oh,

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  I'm being serviced in a way that nobody was really speaking our language. And so that community piece is something that, whether it's another brand's on sale, or it's got a new thing, it doesn't matter because I'm bought into the lifestyle and I align with the lifestyle. And then you look at what we do with the do-good, where we donate a meal to families in need. And we've done almost 12 million meals to date. Like, that stands for something, and I think people respect that. Yeah. When you look at Mountain Ops, first core value is recognizing God. I think a lot of people go like, I like that. I like that you stand for something and you're proud enough to stand tall and talk about that, where not everybody is. Right. So there's something to align with. Onnit, very unconventional. I think it was like the fitness misfits, right?

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  You would go in the Onnit gym and there's people training with clubs and maces with their shoes off. And it was a different way. And it was like this magnet for other like-minded individuals to feel safe and excited to be in that environment. And Aubrey Marcus and Joe Rogan created that environment for a lot of people and talked about it in a way that nobody else was. So you had this safe space to kind of explore and play in that world. Bodybuilding.com had one of the biggest online communities ever in body space. And that site alone was getting almost 40 million unique visitors each month. So it was just a safe space for people to share their vulnerability with that journey. So it wasn't just bodybuilders. I would say the majority of the customers there were people like who I was, someone that was like taking those first few steps and losing weight and trying to learn and make progress.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  And I had to do it on my own, but I could connect into this community that was also doing it alongside of me. And I look at these three brands and they all have that. They have that backbone, a community. And I think... That's what gives you staying power in a, in an industry like this. You have to stand for something. You have to have a group of people that are like-minded, that are willing to be in the trenches together. And I think you have to, you know, have a perspective on things that people align with. And you're not going to be for everyone. Just like Mountain Ops isn't for everybody. What we stand for from core values or our core customer, it's not for everybody and that's okay. I'd rather be polarizing than, than be for everybody. I think that's the death to a lot of brands. When they get to a, a certain growth point, or maybe they, they change hands and, hands and ownership. And then there's this driving force to make it for everyone.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  And then I think you end up being for nobody.

• 1:25:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  You know, so I, I like having like a hard edge where you're like, no, this is where we draw the line. We don't, we don't go over there. That's not for us. There's other things over there. And you might even be able to make a bunch of money if you went over there, but that's, that's where we draw the line. And I love that we have those kinds of principles.

• 1:25:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a, you know, I mean, it's easy to say like, hey, let's build a community of people. Everybody wants that.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, good luck.

• 1:25:36Cameron Hanes?

  Everybody wants that. It's hard to do.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  It's very hard.

• 1:25:39Cameron Hanes?

  Every business wants a community that they can rely on, where as you said, like, oh, there's a sale on this other stuff. We don't care. We're, we're invested in this.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't care if you're giving it to me for free. I don't want it.

• 1:25:48Cameron Hanes?

  And that's, it is tough to do. So yeah, it's like, I applaud Mountain Ops for doing it so well for so long. But I think that, yeah, as we said earlier, you can't take your foot off the gas. I mean, nothing lasts forever. You gotta, you gotta keep that pressure on.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the game plan changes. You can't run the same playbook over and over and over and over and over again. You can run it for a while and it works. And you can double down on areas that work well, like community, like conquer hunger, I think is one to continuously to lean into. But if you just make the same products, I don't care what, what business it is. If you only ride that one product forever, eventually people move on.

• 1:26:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  So you gotta drive some innovation. I think we do a great job with flavor innovation. We're always dropping new flavors, keeping it exciting. So you don't get flavor fatigue or just fatigue in general. There's always something new coming out. And now you're going to see a lot of innovation coming out from us on the supplement side. Some of these new categories and the meals and foods that we're doing.

• 1:26:41Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  I think that makes it exciting and keeps people coming back. But you're right, community, everybody wants it.

• 1:26:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  You know, back in the day, I remember sitting across the table from the other brands that we would sell and they're like, we're going to be a lifestyle brand now. Yeah. And I was like, what do you mean now? Like, how does that work? You know, like, well, you know, our Instagram is going to show more lifestyle images. I was like, that's Okay. Not a lifestyle. Like you look at, um, you know, Ryan DeLuca, who founded Bodybuilding.com, built a brand around the lifestyle that he lived and he lowered the fourth wall and let people see it. Hmm. And it was a magnet for other people that wanted to work there that had that same mindset in a community that just built upon it. Uh, it was more like that web 1.0. They had the Misk and all these forums where people could go and connect and talk about this stuff on it. Very similarly.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  Aubrey did a great job of lowering that fourth wall of like, this is what it means to wanna be, I don't know, into total human optimization. And whatever that meant, and it went in a lot of different areas. Mountain Ops is very similar in that same vein. And what all those three brands had in common was community, purpose and a really strong perspective, which gave permissibility. And that's where I think a lot of other brands get stuck. Uh, you know, Onnit could make kettlebells, you know, with, with chimp faces on it and sell AlphaBrain and Chapstick, right? Like there was like, it was, there was almost no boundary. Right. At one point we had to rein it in because it was like, whoa, whoa, we're making hot sauce and we're making kettlebells, you know, like, let's, let's pick a little bit of a lane.

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  And Mountain Ops has that. We, we sell, we sell really high quality gear that can be used out in the field, right? We sell great, like everyday logo wear. And we make incredible supplements and food products. There's plenty of other vitamin and supplement companies out there, but I don't see a lot of people wearing like Centrum t-shirts. Right. You know what I mean? Like there's something when you can sell other categories to a consumer base that you are a true lifestyle. Cause I think it started that way. Yeah. That's the difference is it started with that lifestyle. It didn't, it didn't go like, oh, you know, it would be great if we started to try to sell to hunters. It's like, it was born there. Right. And it was tested there and it, it's never deviated from that. And I think that's what people are looking for. They're trying to see if, to catch you slipping almost. And I think we've done a good job of

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  keeping that fourth wall down and showing that we do what you do. Yeah. We are similar in a lot of ways. And I think people respect that.

• 1:29:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  Cause a lot of companies, I think you feel like you're getting duped, you know, that there's just like when I walked in the room, you were like, you know, not what I expected to see, right? Like some, some bean counter coming from some

• 1:29:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  conglomerate or whatever was here to make better margin and some more stuff, right? Like, yeah.

• 1:29:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  That's just not me, you know what I mean? First off, but I wouldn't want a job like that.

• 1:29:21Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  And I wouldn't want to work for a company like that. I want to.

• 1:29:24Cameron Hanes?

  I was dreading a podcast with the old white CEO. So.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  So I got a flip chart over here and we're going to talk about some numbers. Yeah.

• 1:29:32Cameron Hanes?

  Here's a, what are those graphs called? What those? Venn diagram? Yeah. Yeah. Venn diagram. Yeah, no, it's a, yeah, I'm, I'm not, I'm not big on, yeah, the business part.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  Authenticity, but the business is part of it, right? Like we have to business so hard as well, right? We gotta, we gotta make sure the bills are paid and do all the things that allow us to be a successful business. And we have to keep an eye on that. And that's a big part of my job. But I think the more important piece is like creating something that's authentic and real that people can connect with. And cause people now more than ever can see through all the fake marketing.

• 1:30:07Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  Real quick, especially because like most people can't stay for the long haul. Like maybe they can do something cool for a minute, but like to really put your money where your mouth is and say, we're going to help feed families in need, even if like we're in not the best economy in sales or we're having a fight for every sale. And our, you know, our acquisition costs are going up and it's expensive to get new customers. Well, we're not going to cut out feeding families.

• 1:30:30Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  That, that's the non-negotiable.

• 1:30:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And I think you see that in brands that do really well, when they start pulling those things away is when it falls apart. You start, you start designing something for like the guy above you versus the customer. And if you keep your eye on the customer, I, I think you can, you can stay around for a long time, but you have to innovate and you have to know when it's time to, to kick it a little bit in the pants and say, all right, it's time for us to do something a little bit different because we, we're getting stale. And yeah, I don't think we got to that point, but I think we had the wherewithal to say it's time to crank it up.

• 1:31:00Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:31:00Speaker 01

  You know, because more people are coming into the space, they saw our, our success and we're like, hey, we can, we can do that too. And it's like, no, you're not going to be able to keep up with what we're doing.

• 1:31:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  And I welcome it. I love. Competition. I think competition makes us better. It pushes us to try new ingredients. It pushes us to to push our standards even higher because we want to protect ourselves by making a product that you can't really touch that our our testing protocols and all the the rigor that we put into creating things. It's not easy.

• 1:31:27Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  You know, it's not, you know, you might be able to start and and start creating a pre workout or something like that. It's very easy to enter the market, but it's it's not going to be easy to stay.

• 1:31:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  I think we have staying power because we put so much work into it.

• 1:31:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I'd I'd that all sounds great. That was a good spiel right there. And it's like, it reminds me of people might want to be in my position and I'm just like, good luck.

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:51Cameron Hanes?

  Come take it.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  Come, yeah.

• 1:31:53Cameron Hanes?

  I hope you're on the top of your game because that's what it's going to take. So, yeah, we like competition and just makes us work harder, wakes me work harder, makes it sounds like makes, you know, you work harder. You're just like, it's all good. This life is competition.

• 1:32:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:07Cameron Hanes?

  So, yeah, I mean, if you're pushing me or or some other supplement companies pushing mountain ops, great, we all win.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  And I look at it that it all it makes the industry better.

• 1:32:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  Right, which makes it safer for the customer.

• 1:32:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  And honestly, we, you know, we would have conversations internally about other brands and I've never really cared. I've always like celebrated other brands where it's like, hey, they're doing cool stuff. That's awesome. We we do cool stuff. We can do cooler stuff.

• 1:32:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  And I'm more like, let's get our blinders on. We knew what we were going to do. Now let's go execute. If we get distracted by everybody else that does something cool, we're we're just going to be chasing our own tail.

• 1:32:41Cameron Hanes?

  For sure.

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  So it's like, yeah, I welcome people to come out with with great products that that press us to to be better.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  I welcome that.

• 1:32:49Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  You know, it's like you don't want to run a race by yourself per se, right? Like you want the competition to be pushing you to to to break new records and push yourself further.

• 1:32:58Cameron Hanes?

  You can always run faster with competition. I mean, like in a race, if you're being pushed, you're always going to run harder and better than if if you're by yourself.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:08Cameron Hanes?

  That's just how it works. We've got to respond. We've got to, yes, how I think humans are designed. We're designed for competition. Um, you got anything else?

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:18Speaker 02

  So you know, you kind of touched on building the community and both external and internal, but more on the internal side. How do you foster a sense of ownership and also a belief in the mission of the company within your employees and your staff, you know, to make sure that you're all working towards one common goal?

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  I find that gets better the more you communicate. I've found in organizations where communication is limited, where you don't share as much information about the business performance, or what our strategic goals are, how we're going to get there, and then how you can contribute to that. When that's all siloed, it never works. When we're in it together, that's when we get really effective. Because I think a lot of times people get in these little, their little groups or their silos, and it becomes someone else's problem, right? It's like, oh, well, that's marketing's problem to figure out.

• 1:34:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  That's the sales guy's problem. That's why sales are, you know, need to be hired. That's their problem. It's not, it's collectively our problem because we're all on the same team. And I think as I've removed that type of friction and those type of conversations to say like, no, we're all in it, and we're going to have conversations about directionally where we need to go. Like, the buck stops with me in a lot of ways, but I'd like to have at least everybody's voice heard. So when we talk about a direction we're going to go, I want those opinions to be out there. That way, we can talk through it and we can find alignment on how we move forward. So then we can't have a lot of people after the fact, looking back, being like, I knew that wasn't the right. You know, it's easy to be the Monday morning quarterback, right? So I find when you remove all that and you bring everybody into how the sausage is made, we're all like accountable.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  And I think it helps us rally around the common mission. If you're just making decisions in a closed box, like who's going to want to go fight with you if you're just calling shots from afar?

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  You know, I think if you're in there doing the work with everybody and explaining why you make certain decisions and not hiding behind them, it's almost easy. And you know, what's beautiful about what's been built at Mountain Ops is it's been built on so much ritual. And I think culture is something that happens regardless, whether you do it intentionally or not, it's a byproduct of how you operate. And if you operate with intention, you have this like predictable outcome of culture. And I think we've built that, that's built around service, that's built around our customers, that's built around a belief in a higher power, something bigger than ourselves. And that allows us, I think, to move in the same direction because everybody's kind of bought into the idea of it all. And I'm sure you've felt it when you've been there. It's not just like a place where people work.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  They are. Borderline obsessed with it, right? Like, people are so into the mission, they're into the brand, they're into what we're doing, and they'll run through walls for it. And that feeling is so exciting. So for me, it's like, don't mess that up. The worst thing I could do is come in as the new CEO and just like, take that away. If anything, I try to move more of the obstacles out of the way. So everybody's on that same team. And then we feel the wins and the losses together. And I think that's what the team experiences. It can't just be one guy's winning over here, and everybody else is just in the middle. You know, like, we're all in it together. So I think it's, yeah, it's communication is like, number one. Because I've worked places where like, you just don't get to know what the performance is. You don't get to know what the numbers are. You don't get to know what the expenses are. Because when everybody understands how they manage their

• 1:36:27Speaker 01

  expenses impacts everything, all of a sudden, we're in it together.

• 1:36:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, that communication piece, that is, I was just, when you're thinking or explaining that, I was thinking about where I used to work, my other son, not true, but Tanner works over there now. And it's like, I remember we'd have our big meetings, and our division meetings, and then, nobody say anything. I was like, or the people doing the meeting would talk, all the crews, everybody wouldn't say anything. Then they'd go out to the truck bay.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  Oh, that's the second meeting.

• 1:37:02Cameron Hanes?

  The second. So, I'm always just like, what are you saying out there? Shouldn't we be talking about it in here? But that's like, so many companies are like that, where you don't have the freedom to say what you really want.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  You get your head ripped off.

• 1:37:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Or you feel stupid by asking a question.

• 1:37:21Speaker 01

  So many people are afraid to ask questions. And I love when people ask questions. They're like, this is a stupid question. And I'm in the camp that there are no stupid questions. It's stupid to not ask. Because it's funny, like, you know, we all use in business different acronyms. And depending on the company you work for, you might be talking about the same thing, but use a slightly different acronym. And how many people just like, let it slide? Because they don't want to be like, well, what does that mean?

• 1:37:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  It's the worst, right? And then it goes too far, and then you can't ask. So, one thing I've been using in our town halls is this app that allows you to ask anonymous questions. That way, people can like, be like, hey, you know, why did this? Change or what do you, how do you?

• 1:37:55Cameron Hanes?

  Is this like a company meeting?

• 1:37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:58Cameron Hanes?

  Town hall?

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we do an all company meeting every week.

• 1:38:00Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  Every Tuesday, we meet as a whole group. And then we also have a hybrid. So we have some people that work like myself. I'm a Texan in Utah. We have some employees in Idaho. We're kind of spread out. And then we get everybody together and it's like, hey, open Kamono. Let's talk. And you can raise your hand and ask a question or you can use the app and, and put it in there. And you can upvote it and people can comment on it. So I feel like people get to feel heard.

• 1:38:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  And we'll open that before the meeting and it stays open until like midnight that night. So maybe after the content, you're like, think of another question, but you never feel like you're going to be reprimanded. So sometimes you get some spicy ones in there.

• 1:38:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  You have the cloak and then.

• 1:38:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:34Speaker 01

  Anonymity, which is perfect. And I think it's a good thing. I, I, I'm always happy to answer those questions. I'll answer questions even in redundancy. Like if somebody asks the same, a few people ask the same question, phrase differently. Like we'll just go through it until everybody feels like they know.

• 1:38:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:48Speaker 01

  What's going on? Because I've been in that, like I didn't just become a CEO randomly, right? Like it's happened over time. So I've had those different seats where you're like, what are these guys talking about? And why are we doing this? Like, that's the worst, right? Like, uh, so I tried to change that a little bit with the culture and just allow us to feel like we can be in the same boat and that we understand why we're in there. And if you don't understand, I'm happy to take as long as it takes to talk about it.

• 1:39:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  You understand.

• 1:39:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's a, that is important. It's like, that also reminded me, like, we had a great GM at work and he would, so we had water, the water division, which is where I was superintendent, then electric division for the power. He'd come down and give us our quarterly update. And I remember one time I told him, I'm like, uh, I said, hey, uh, it's a good update. I said, but, um, you, all you talked about was electric. I said, these guys care about what they do. This is a whole different division. We're talking about, you know, buying electricity off the BPA. We're talking about all this, all the stuff that the substations electric's doing.

• 1:39:57Cameron Hanes?

  You know, sometimes the GM though, he's thinking about all this stuff.

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:02Cameron Hanes?

  And sometimes you don't think about like, who am I talking to?

• 1:40:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:40:05Cameron Hanes?

  I have the stuff I've been, you know, probably agonizing about for weeks, like something about, you know, with like, what with the electric division. And then you get to water and you start talking about what's been on your mind. Well, it had nothing to do with what we do. So it's just sometimes it's just like, sometimes we can be, you know, can't see the trees to the forest type thing.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:27Cameron Hanes?

  But it's like, you, you seem very aware on, and, and I'm not trying to fault our old GM for doing this, but it's just, it's a challenge.

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:40:36Cameron Hanes?

  It's a challenge sometimes, big groups of people, different focus.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:40Cameron Hanes?

  But you've got to be cognizant of it.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  I, I, I try to push our leadership team too, to make sure that they're, they're always giving updates from across the board, big and small. Because I think when you don't do that, you marginalize the work people are doing. So it's like, oh, well, I've been grinding on this project or this thing that's important to my role, but it's never been brought up in a meeting or spoken about. Is it, does it even matter? And I think it's really important that you, even if it is small and, and big things, I think are important. So people understand that their contribution is one, relevant and matters. And that it's also like important that, you know, people understand what other people are doing.

• 1:41:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:15Speaker 01

  That's like, it's, and that's easier. I'm doing that with an organization that's like around 40 people. That's a lot different, right? Than being in some, some huge company or something. But I think there's a balance to that. People want to feel recognized and that you see what they're doing. I think that's like just a thing in life. It's not even work. Like you want to be acknowledged a little bit for your existence.

• 1:41:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  Um, and I think that's like a pretty basic need to, to meet for people. And taking that time to highlight what people are doing is, is kind of basic. And you'd be shocked at how, how much enthusiasm it creates with the team when you just are honest and let people share what they're excited about too. Cause yeah, I might be thinking about this, this thing that's more strategic, that's like a year down the road, but there's so much going on in today. And I can't look past those things either, because that's what people are losing sleep over now. Let's, let's highlight all of it.

• 1:42:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and it's just, you know, hearing that your work is appreciated or that you're appreciated, like on a Friday, that's what you think about all weekend. You know what I mean? Instead of like, if something happens on a Friday and you got your ass chewed, then you're thinking about that all weekend. So it's like, these words matter and these relationships matter. But, uh, yeah, super interesting. I didn't know that this conversation was going to be so like, CEO centric. I love it. I love the business. Just, I love business environment and different personalities and like different challenges. This has been, I think, pretty interesting. Do you have anything else?

• 1:42:43Speaker 02

  Well, then here's one question that's not CEO centric.

• 1:42:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yes.

• 1:42:47Speaker 02

  And I saved this for the end, just in case.

• 1:42:49Cameron Hanes?

  HR, baby.

• 1:42:50Speaker 02

  You want to cut it out.

• 1:42:51Cameron Hanes?

  We're going to straight to HR.

• 1:42:53Speaker 02

  We ask every guest, I kill.

• 1:42:57Speaker 02

  But about, okay, okay, good. So about random things. So I think a good one for you is three supplements. So electrolytes, creatine, or protein. I'd have to kill them.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Oh, all right. Well, I'm going to F creatine because there's so many good studies on it. And it's flavorless. You can add it to anything. And there's, there's more information that even over the five grams, there's now cognitive benefits. So it's just like, it's the gift that keeps on giving.

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  But wouldn't you want to marry that then?

• 1:43:27Cameron Hanes?

  You might want to marry that.

• 1:43:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Long-term commitment. Yeah.

• 1:43:30Cameron Hanes?

  If it's going to be around for a while, that might be, yeah, put a ring on it.

• 1:43:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll put a ring on it.

• 1:43:35Cameron Hanes?

  You know this ring.

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  And so what was the other two? We had protein and what was electrolytes? Yeah. Man, electrolytes are key, but I think I'd kill protein because protein supplements are great. But man, there's protein in everything now in food, right? Like I've got a high protein meat stick.

• 1:43:52Cameron Hanes?

  We don't need no powder.

• 1:43:53Speaker 01

  We can get protein in my pasta now, you know, I buy burrito pasta that has like 10 grams of protein per serving in my, in my carbohydrates, right? So, uh, yeah, I think protein can go and we still need it, but I just can get it from so many other sources now.

• 1:44:06Cameron Hanes?

  Well, wait, what, what did you electrolytes you were gonna?

• 1:44:14Cameron Hanes?

  All right. Well, I, do you have anything else?

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  No, that's it.

• 1:44:19Cameron Hanes?

  Well Keith, I think that was a great conversation. I appreciate it. Thank you very much for coming. And yeah, I'm pumped to share this, what's our line called?

• 1:44:29Speaker 01

  The Apex.

• 1:44:30Cameron Hanes?

  The Apex line. I almost forgot it. The Apex line. I'm pumped to, you know, get, just be at my best and share that with everybody. Yeah. Thank you for coming down.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  No, thanks for having me here so much.

• 1:44:43Cameron Hanes?

  The old studio in Springfield, Oregon. T Cameron, guys.