Michelle Obama: We Still Go High

Join Alex in the studio for a conversation with Former First Lady Michelle Obama! Alex and Michelle discuss the biggest roadblocks women face in today’s world and how to confront major issues like misogyny, double standards and objectification. Michelle shares her experiences from her time as First Lady and how those helped inspire her new book, The Look, as well as her honest take on what it would take to finally get a woman in the White House. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 0:43Alex Cooper?

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• 1:12Speaker 01

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• 1:42Alex Cooper?

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• 2:10Alex Cooper?

  What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:19Alex Cooper?

  Michelle Obama, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 2:21Speaker 03

  Hey, Alex. Look at here. And to call her daddy, I'm here.

• 2:25Alex Cooper?

  You don't even know.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  Cool set, too.

• 2:27Alex Cooper?

  Thank you. It is beyond an honor to be sitting with you today. How are you doing?

• 2:33Speaker 03

  I'm doing good. I mean, I'm personally good, individually good, feeling whole. But, you know, the world feels a little nutty. And so there's, you know, that piece of it seeps in in ways. But I'm happy to be here.

• 2:50Alex Cooper?

  I'm happy you're here. Talk to me about your outfit. How did you pick it?

• 2:55Speaker 03

  Outfit, this is a Meredith Coop original. And as we were thinking about promotions for the tour, there is a picture that a lot of people have been showing of me at Princeton. And Meredith Coop had the idea of updating, this is the

• 3:13Alex Cooper?

  We can I show?

• 3:14Speaker 03

  Updated version.

• 3:15Alex Cooper?

  It's on one of the first pages. I remember when I looked at it.

• 3:17Speaker 03

  The first ones. And when she brought it to me, I was like, you are so, look at this. I mean, isn't so it's a redo. It's the next version.

• 3:26Alex Cooper?

  Oh, that's so good.

• 3:27Speaker 03

  My campus look 2.0 or 5.0. Yeah, yeah. So we were like, this is the perfect place to do it with Alex.

• 3:35Alex Cooper?

  I love it.

• 3:35Speaker 03

  So.

• 3:36Alex Cooper?

  Okay, I am going skiing soon. And I heard that you are also a skier.

• 3:42Speaker 03

  I love skiing, but I'm kind of putting up my ski boots.

• 3:48Alex Cooper?

  You're done.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  I just feel like I am just one fall away. You know, because I am like a crazy skier. Like, I can't ski a little bit. I'm like skiing all day.

• 4:00Alex Cooper?

  Oh, you're going black diamond.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  I go, well, I go black. I don't go double black. I like blacks and blues.

• 4:08Alex Cooper?

  Are we doing moguls?

• 4:09Speaker 03

  No, no, not yet. But when I ski, there's, I'm still the former first lady with security. So I have sort of a ski motorcade. So there.

• 4:20Alex Cooper?

  Wait, I'm trying to picture myself skiing down like-

• 4:23Speaker 03

  You can't tell, right?

• 4:25Alex Cooper?

  You can't?

• 4:25Speaker 03

  No, because the agents are, they're blending in, you know? Some are snowboarders and some are, but they're usually in the front and the back, right? So that no errant person just clobbers me, you know? So I don't really know what goes on behind me when I'm skiing. I just know we make it down. And I usually, I ski with an instructor, I ski in Aspen. Vance is my ski husband and I miss him dearly.

• 4:52Alex Cooper?

  Vance!

• 4:53Speaker 03

  I've skied with Vance for 10 years and I hope he hears this. I love him, I miss him, I haven't skied in two years. But we ski, we made it a mother-daughter trip. Um, all, every President's Day weekend for the last 10 years. There are a bunch of mothers and daughters, we've all raised our kids together. And we take the long weekend, go to Aspen and ski.

• 5:15Alex Cooper?

  So, yeah, but you're, you're done.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  I just, I'm just worried that, you know, like I usually have one fall.

• 5:23Alex Cooper?

  You don't need an injury, you don't need to be in a boot.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  And then I can't do anything else, you know?

• 5:28Alex Cooper?

  And we need you to do other things.

• 5:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, anyway, so that-

• 5:30Alex Cooper?

  We need you.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:31Alex Cooper?

  Okay, well, good to know. I was just wondering, like hobbies? I'm a skier, I'm, I'm the similar way though, like as I continue to get older, I'm like, I don't want to be hurt from this. I want to enjoy myself, but I'm so competitive.

• 5:43Speaker 03

  This is the thing, I bet. What do you, are you black diamonds?

• 5:46Alex Cooper?

  I'm trying to go black diamonds, I'll start on a blue just to like feel something and then I'm like-

• 5:49Speaker 03

  Then you start feeling, feeling it. And then you're just like, yeah, yeah, no, let's do that black run, let's do it. Or you do it once and then you're like, let's do it again!

• 5:58Alex Cooper?

  And it's like, no, it's, it's after lunch, you just ate a lot, like-

• 6:02Speaker 03

  I always have one run too many. It is the one run where I say, I am done after this run. And then right in the middle of the end of the run, like I'm not stopping, like that foot's not-

• 6:16Alex Cooper?

  You're getting lazy.

• 6:16Speaker 03

  Getting lazy.

• 6:17Alex Cooper?

  And then the form goes.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  Form goes and then brrrrr. And then when I fall- You know, the looks on everyone's faces, it's like everybody has a heart attack.

• 6:27Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, I didn't think about that. Like, you kind of also have to worry about all these other people. Like you said, everyone's behind you, in front of you, watching out for you.

• 6:34Speaker 03

  And then how do they feel? And do they feel responsible?

• 6:38Alex Cooper?

  And sometimes you want to fall and like have no one see. You don't have that luxury.

• 6:43Speaker 03

  There. Ski patrol, doctors, you know, men with guns. It's like, I'm good, guys.

• 6:49Alex Cooper?

  Oh, my God.

• 6:50Speaker 03

  Get up from there.

• 6:51Alex Cooper?

  Okay, well, good to know. I just was interested in, you know, hobbies. I know you knit.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  I knit. I haven't been knitting lately because I've been reading a lot and reading and prep for our podcast. I'm reading people's books. So, and I still like books, so I don't do audio. And if you're holding a book, you can't knit. So I'm really, really reading a lot right now, so I haven't knit it as much, but it's still there. It's in me.

• 7:15Alex Cooper?

  I have been trying to read more as well. I think just especially with the uptick in social media and the usage and everything. I just feel so uninspired. And so, reading has allowed me to tap back into parts of myself that I do miss when I was in education. Right? And when you're in school, you're like taking it for granted. But then when you leave, you're like, wow, what a privilege it was. Okay, so when I was preparing for this interview,

• 7:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 7:44Alex Cooper?

  I realized that there were kind of two ways I could go about it. Option one would be more OG Call Her Daddy days. You know, talk some relationships, try to ask you a couple of questions about sex.

• 8:02Speaker 03

  Barack Obama wants to get reports on. It's like, you said what?

• 8:07Alex Cooper?

  You're like, it's her show. I don't know.

• 8:09Speaker 03

  Well, we were just talking.

• 8:10Alex Cooper?

  Right. So, you know, relationships and sex, which again, you're right, it would go viral. And poor Barack would be like, why? Literally have everything I've done, why? But then there's the other side of this show.

• 8:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:23Alex Cooper?

  Which is option two, which is. Hard but important conversations that are relevant to young women and girls all around the world. And so as juicy as option one would be. Or not. Or not, actually. I mean, it could have been like, nah, that's sad. I'm like, oh, um, right, fair. Um, I just thought about it. I'm like, you sitting here today as one of the most influential and powerful women in the world. Oh. It would be too great of an opportunity not to have you impart your wisdom on the next generation who is watching and listening today. So we're going with option two. So I think we're, unless you want to go option one.

• 9:08Alex Cooper?

  She's like, no. I think with that setup, you're right. Let's, let's go with option two. And to anyone watching, you can all take a deep breath. This is not going to be about politics today. This is going to be about women. Yeah. Which I love talking about here on Call Her Daddy. So, Michelle, are you ready? I am ready, Alex.

• 9:44Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Airbnb. As you guys know, I have basically been working double time throughout this pregnancy to bank episodes for the month that I will be on maternity leave. And a few weeks ago, it all just kind of hit me. I was like, wait, wait, wait, where did summer go? And I was talking about this with Matt and he ended up surprising me with a little staycation. He booked this beautiful home on Airbnb in Malibu so that we could pretend like it was summer while it's still warm here in LA. The weather was perfect. The house was right on the beach, which was so. Relaxing and amazing. It also had just such a gorgeous kitchen. We stayed in, we cooked dinner

• 10:24Alex Cooper?

  together. And you know, daddy gave me my cooking skills. They have, they have gotten better. They've gotten a little bit better through pregnancy, but it was really just so nice to unplug and spend that time together before the baby comes and we move into this completely new chapter of our life. So whether you're planning a cozy weekend away, or you're just looking for an excuse to unplug for a few days, October is the perfect time to get out of town. Booking a home on Airbnb makes the trip feel even more special because everyone has room to actually spend time together. Whether you're coming back after a long day out, or you're also just cooking dinner, Airbnb makes settling in even easier because

• 11:04Alex Cooper?

  you can order groceries for your trip and have all the snacks and essentials delivered after you arrive. My favorite fall trips always have one thing in common, an amazing place to say. That's why I always look at Airbnb first. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by My Mochi. Everyone is talking about Dubai chocolate, chocolate with pistachio flavored cream. Well, now Mochi Ice Cream has its own version of Dubai chocolate. Spoiler alert, guys, it's delicious. My Mochi Dubai Chocolate Ice Cream is premium pistachio flavored ice cream with kidev and chocolatey flavored bits wrapped

• 11:46Alex Cooper?

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• 12:31Alex Cooper?

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• 13:16Alex Cooper?

  I love being able to sell merch directly on all the Call Her Daddy channels. So everything is in one place for the daddy gang. So, ready to add entrepreneur to your list of accomplishments? Head to Shopify.com/daddy. That's Shopify.com/daddy. Okay, so you recently released your book, The Look. Congratulations. Thank you. Thanks so much. Beautiful. And on the surface, it presents like a fashion book, right? But it's so much more than that. It is about your values, uplifting women, building confidence. And we're going to get into all of it today. But first, I kind of want to set the scene of how we even got here. You've talked a lot about how we live in a world where a woman's appearance and our

• 14:01Alex Cooper?

  bodies are overly scrutinized and objectified. I'm going to quote you. You said, "It is the habit of the culture of the world to put women in their place by attacking their physical being." Even after you went to Princeton and Harvard Law School, you were in the White House doing things like combating child obesity and advocating for girls' education. The haters still chose to focus on your arms and your hair. What was that experience like for you? And how did you navigate it day to day and not let it distract you? Yeah.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  I think it became sort of the shock of the reality of that. I felt in the first year of campaigning. You know, when Barack announced, I was hesitant, but once I was on board, I was on board. And I knew that I needed to be out there campaigning and introducing the world, not just to him, but to us. As the first potential black president and black family, we understood that there might be hesitations, misconceptions, people who, you know, weren't exposed to a broad diversity of people.

• 15:20Speaker 03

  And so we knew that it was important for both of us to be out there telling our story, helping people understand our values, what we cared about, how we were raised, who our parents were. To me, all of those stories are what connect us. So that's what I'm out there doing, you know? I'm in Iowa, you know, it starts out that I'm in people's backyards and, you know, in church basements. I mean, it starts out small because who are the Obamas? I mean, who are these two, right? So it wasn't like people were climbing the walls. I mean, Hillary Clinton was the favorite in Iowa. Barack was a distant fourth, but we worked hard at the grassroots and understood that we'd have to meet people in their homes and in their communities.

• 16:05Speaker 03

  And so I was kind of like not even a blip on the screen. So I was out there freely talking and I never had a written speech. I just would usually talk from my heart and talk about us. And so slowly, things grew and grew and I wasn't in a backyard anymore, but I was in a school auditorium and it wasn't 10 people, it was 5,000 people. And I think everyone was kind of shocked by how I was connecting in that way. But I always felt like this is, this is who we are as Americans, you know? I mean, the, one of the best experiences I had in my life was leaving this outside

• 16:47Speaker 03

  of Chicago and going into rural America and understanding that we're the same people, you know? It's like the food we eat, the things we care about, the way my dad loved his family, the pride he had in his family, you know, the working class nature, his work ethic. People would do that. They'd just shake their heads and nod. And what might have been, uh, I'm not sure about you, became a, I know you, right? And that was the experience I was having. But as my popularity rose, I was being covered more, right? And so the press enters the scene and there are now reports, right?

• 17:29Speaker 03

  And the first thing, after all this great conversation and connection, the, the top of the article would be, she was wearing. You know, um, not my education, not my, you know, not, not my professional career, but it started with appearance. And it got worse as we got better. So I understood it as campaign tactics, right? I could separate it out and go, well, this, yeah, this is politics, right? It's like, what better way to beat a moving engine is to try and slow it down? And so with women, what do we do with women?

• 18:14Speaker 03

  We start sort of talking about their strength and their, so then I became, I was angry, not passionate. I was misogynist. I wasn't joking about my husband and humanizing him, right? Um, I wasn't athletic. I was scary, scarily muscular, right? Um, so it, it was, it was a rolling thing and I attributed it totally to politics. And I didn't write it off to what people really thought. Because I had months and months of understanding that the people in those auditoriums and in those school buildings and at those speeches, they, they understood who I was. Did, if that makes sense.

• 18:58Alex Cooper?

  It does make sense. And I think that's a great way to look at it, right? Because you're, you're able to compartmentalize essentially that this is the name of the game. This is how it goes. But it still doesn't mean that it's sexist, right? It's, it's, it's, they're attacking you for your looks and they're not doing that to a man.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  They weren't doing that to my husband, right? They weren't describing him physically. And he was out there more than I was. So I was like, okay, well, this is where it comes from. It's like, wow, whoever is doing this, when it comes to how we put women in their place, it's like, okay, you, you, there, there wasn't comment about the substance that I was saying. It was like, why did she wear this? And was that appropriate? And what does this mean? And it's all about how we look. And the more you pay attention to that, you see it not just happen to me, but even happen to other female candidates, other wives, other, you know, other celebrities, other people in the public eye.

• 20:01Speaker 03

  So I, I tried not to take it personally and understand that this was a game. And I definitely didn't want to assume that this is what America thought. Like, being able to separate out what is politics and media and where people's hearts are. And I think sometimes we still, we struggle because the game is still happening. You know, we're still dividing each other up. When my truth was that no one ever in my face in any community was unwelcoming or rigid or closed minded, right? Not in person, right? It was all about what was being fed.

• 20:47Speaker 03

  So I didn't want that to, I didn't want that to color my heart towards this country.

• 20:53Alex Cooper?

  Even you speaking, right? We're talking about objectification because we as women experience that every day. And then you're dealing with it with it on the world stage. I also love it because you have a pattern of challenging norms. And you refuse to shrink or to conform to the patriarchy, which I love. And in your book, you talk about learning that, quote, "If you can't beat them, work their fascination to your advantage." It's one of my favorite quotes, truly, because it's so relatable. Like, From a very young age as women, we learn how to shapeshift essentially. And we constantly

• 21:35Speaker 03

  We have to.

• 21:35Alex Cooper?

  We have to. It's unavoidable, right?

• 21:37Speaker 03

  Biologically.

• 21:38Alex Cooper?

  To survive.

• 21:39Speaker 03

  Just to survive.

• 21:40Alex Cooper?

  But that, when you're talking about leaning into the fascination, can you talk to me about how you personally learned to navigate it? And how did you know, Michelle, when to lean in?

• 21:48Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:49Alex Cooper?

  And when to pull back?

• 21:50Speaker 03

  Hmm, that's a, that's a good question. Um, I think, again, on the campaign trail and as in those first months of, of, of being in office, um, you know, you just, you, you see what's written. And you see the, you know, you look up and there was a whole website, Mrs. O, that, you know, focused on, and this is all, it's, this was complimentary. It was exciting. I could see the fun of it, right? I get it, right? Um, but I kind of thought that, I, I understood that fashion and appearance for women is so powerful that if I spent too much time talking about it,

• 22:34Speaker 03

  maybe nobody would hear anything else I'd have to say. And I, I came in wanting to say so much and do so much substantively. I knew what I wanted to do going in. And it was interesting. I'd always get the question leading up to the campaign, well, you know, how, how did, what do you want to accomplish as First Lady? And my first answer was, first of all, I want to make sure my kids are whole. So me being a good mother in this, me and Barack being good parents in this, like, it didn't mean that we weren't going to work hard, but if you want to know what my priority was, like, a lot of parents is making sure that my kids weren't destroyed by this thing we're doing,

• 23:17Speaker 03

  that they ended up whole. And I thought by saying that, that that wasn't controversial. It was just like, like, I, we have kids and they've got to go to school. They have security. And so I, I'm going to have to focus on that, just like all of us as women mothers do. We're multitasking and we're doing it all the time. And I was doing it before I landed there. But it was always interesting. People would be like, well, how do you know what to do in this role? And to me, it was clear that, oh, my God, you, you don't, you don't know anything about what I did before I came here. Like you don't like, you know, and you don't wanna, but I was like, well, I went to Princeton

• 23:57Speaker 03

  and Harvard. I mean, I practiced law. I was an assistant to the mayor in Chicago. I ran a nonprofit of 501(c)(3).

• 24:06Alex Cooper?

  Like I've been doing this.

• 24:07Speaker 03

  I was a vice president for community relations at the University of Chicago Hospitals. I was a dean of students. I was like, oh, you guys, I, all of that just disappeared in the course of this whole election and you now see me as just Barack Obama's wife. So that made me say, what, that, that quickly? My shoes become the most important thing about me, right? And again, not unique to me. It can happen to the best of us. So I shied away from fashion leading the conversation, but I knew I couldn't, I didn't completely

• 24:46Speaker 03

  control it. So let's lean in. Let's lean in with what we do. Let's make sure that we have a plan and a strategy in place for how fashion, just like everything we did in the White House, would have meaning and impact.

• 25:03Alex Cooper?

  That makes so much sense because again, in the book, you're talking about the, now the behind the scenes of the designers you were choosing and people that you were choosing to work with was so meticulous on your end, but speaking about it, you can now speak about it. But at the time, I understand. It's like, I cannot be reduced to the dress and to the shoe and to the hair and the whole thing. I want people to hear what I'm actually saying. Um, I have a question because I think this is pretty applicable to my audience. Cause it's tough for women, obviously, when we're even talking about fashion. A perfect example, a young woman is going for a job interview and she gets the lowdown, oh, this

• 25:44Alex Cooper?

  boss is a full misogynistic pig. So she wears the dress instead of the pants because she is so acutely aware, and maybe it's subconscious, that if she, she leans into her conventionally feminine aura, then she probably will have a better chance at getting the job.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:05Alex Cooper?

  But is that okay? Or are we abandoning ourselves and are we compromising ourselves? Like what, what do we do?

• 26:12Speaker 03

  You know, look, life is full of compromises, just period, right? I mean, some of, what I always say is that you've got to pick and choose your battles. We all do. And the, the, the personal question becomes, where are you in life? Right? If you're a young woman that needs a job to pay off her loans and to, and, and it's your first job and you're, you know, you have less leverage than I do as the former first lady to wear what you want and have this empowerment and say what you want to do. Like, my advice to young girls is, first of all, make sure you can pay your rent.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  You know, and don't make decisions so rashly when you don't have the leverage to keep yourself safe. Right? But in the midst of that, you, you don't want to compromise yourself so much that you lose yourself and you are not safe. Right? So you, you may wear the dress because it's professional and gives you an edge, but then you want to be very careful of who this person is that you're now working for. You know? And whether, so now you have to be smart. It's, it has less to do with what you're wearing, but who is that person? And do you trust him? And can you trust him?

• 27:38Speaker 03

  You, you know, women don't have to dress a certain way to lead on somebody who has misogynistic, you know, a lot of times we blame ourselves and say, well, if I, you know, look, you leaned in because you wore that dress and you, you know? But, but it is a tricky balance because, you know, if you're in a professional setting and wearing a dress or a certain, if, if, if that is the standard. Then you are a little, you know, you do have to be thoughtful. So we have to think a lot more. I mean, it's just, this is also what I'm saying in the book, right?

• 28:18Speaker 03

  I mean, to, to strike that balance and to be thoughtful about what messages we're sending, giving, receiving, men don't do that. My husband wasn't doing that. Same suit. Put on blue suit, black, white shirt, different tie, you know? I mean, we're on a trip where there's 8,000 things happening in one day. You know, we're on a safari and then we're at a meeting and then, you know, even the way they structured the day, it's like, this is a man's schedule, you know? And all he has to do is take off his tie, unbutton the top top, take his jacket off. Now he's casual. Now he can talk to kids. Now he's at a meeting with the UN, throws that jacket back on and I'm following around and it's like, I got heels and flats

• 29:01Speaker 03

  and cobblestones and sweaters and blazers and tops and skirts that are too short. And now you can't stoop. That's me, but that's all of us, right? We, we, so there's so many, there's so much work that I think we, we do it so easily as women. It, it is just a part of waking up and it is a lot of work. And I'm, I want us all to start owning that it is a lot of work and that it does take strategy because, you know,

• 29:39Speaker 03

  and, and for men to pretend like it doesn't, that that, that this isn't part of the game, you know? Like, and if we don't name it, you know, if we keep trying to pretend like, no, I just woke up like this, you know? I, I want you to know how much work, I want my, I wanted my, I want my husband, I made sure he understood, me traveling with you and you traveling, different, different burden dude, different burden.

• 30:10Alex Cooper?

  It's so refreshing because again, I've seen the, obviously critics online being like, oh my gosh, this is just, this isn't for the time, we don't need to hear about the nice dresses you were wearing. And I'm like, That's the complete, that's, you're actually feeding into why she had to write the book. Because that's the exact point, that you're still just seeing it at surface level.

• 30:28Speaker 03

  Well, it takes people to read the book, right? And this is what politics are, right? I mean, you know, I've been in the political world. I am affiliated, I understand it, you know? It's like, you don't know me, right? So you see the book, anybody who's known me, my career, my life, the other books I've read, which is why this book is the third book, not the first book. Because I was like, yeah, talking about fashion, you know? You know, you gotta lay a foundation for it.

• 31:01Alex Cooper?

  You gotta ease them in.

• 31:02Speaker 03

  Gotta ease them in, but it's also, like, if you know me, you know, I'm just not that person. I'm not the person that's just gonna talk about some dresses, right?

• 31:11Alex Cooper?

  No, you're not, Michelle.

• 31:12Speaker 03

  It's gotta have a meaning behind it. So what I would just say to people is, pick it up and read it first, that's all. As opposed to reading a review about it, or reading a review of somebody who would never like me, who has already has a predisposed opinion, which exists in this country. This is, this is really a book about self-determination, who we are as women. How, it's about the team of people that help us. And, and it's an industry and a business, and it's a billion-dollar business. And what stylists and makeup artists do is not just this fun little thing, you know,

• 31:56Speaker 03

  that many of us don't have the time, the luxury to do it. But this expectation is still there. So we, if we don't talk about, if we don't have to talk about fashion, then let's make it irrelevant. Then why are there dress codes? And why are people commenting about people's hair? Why, why, why are we doing any of it? You know, it, it puts us in a trap, in a way, but it can also be fun.

• 32:24Alex Cooper?

  With, I know, it's like such a good point. It's like, it can have such a fun freedom to it, but we would be remiss to not acknowledge everything that you've said in this book so brilliantly of just like, yes, but guys, we have to acknowledge that women just have such a different standard that we're held to. And I appreciate you acknowledging that, yes, there is a different level of privilege as the two of us sitting here right now and the outfit choices that we're making. Yes, we can decide to send a message to what we're wearing, but it, a lot of times right now in our position, we are not being held to, well, you wore that, so you're not going to get the job now. But if you rewound to our lives, like when I was a younger girl, I did dress a specific way because I knew I was in a male-dominated industry and I knew I would have a better time if I wore a tighter shirt because the

• 33:09Alex Cooper?

  guy would maybe give me more attention. What I did with that, though, is so important and I appreciate you acknowledging that. It's like, don't lose yourself to the game of the misogyny that we all get wrapped into. And I want to talk about social media with you because this plays into it where that's the newest arena where women are being objectified. And I emphasize newest. We've been objectified for forever, since day one, but this is, this is new. You've talked about how women and girls are demeaned, devalued and disrespected, especially online now. And we have studies to back it up, right? Mental health issues, body image issues, self-esteem issues. One really sad reality of this is that it's not

• 33:54Alex Cooper?

  just men tearing women down.

• 33:56Speaker 03

  Well, this is.

• 33:57Alex Cooper?

  Women. It's more often women tearing each other down. And that's even more painful. Because it's sadly, I hate to say it, we expect it from men. And so it hurts that much more when it is another woman doing it to another woman. How did you deal when women came at you? And do you have advice for women who are victims of, you know, being unfairly targeted?

• 34:28Speaker 03

  I mean, it's, it's, you know, surprisingly, yeah, it would hurt more coming from a woman. Because it's like, wow, you know, you know, you know what we're going through. But here's what helps me. And it doesn't, you know.

• 34:47Speaker 03

  It it it it takes time, maturity, to kind of come to peace with this. But in order to keep myself sane in the midst of this on all levels, I just try to wonder what's going on in the mind of the person who can go there. Right? And when I think about women attacking women, it it is always rooted in the insecurity and lack of self-esteem that is rampant in our culture. Like, we're set up to feel badly about ourselves, right? And then to turn against ourselves and then to turn on each other.

• 35:32Speaker 03

  Um, it's a doggy dog world out there. So I try to humanize my victimizer and say, something happened to you. Something is, you know, some something is tearing away and it doesn't have and it doesn't have to do with me. Right? I am, I might have been the closest, easiest target for you at the time. Um, but let me so that I can stay sane and wake up and show up well with people. Because as First Lady, that's ultimately my job. I mean, I couldn't let something break me to the point where I got so cynical and despondent about the whole of this country.

• 36:16Speaker 03

  Like, to me, it's like, it was, it's my job to believe in America, to believe in our utter, deep goodness. Because that is true. That is the, you know, and when people go astray, it's because of something that happened to them, a brokenness, and that helps me right-size my feelings.

• 36:39Alex Cooper?

  I agree with you because I think especially with therapy and, you know, We have psychology, right? We know through psychology that women that are attacking other women, it's like there is an insecurity, there is a pain. And a lot of times, I think, online especially, the conversation does stop there, though, of, oh, she's just jealous, or she's insecure, she's going through something. I mean, I think the term mean girl, for the millennial and Gen Z generation, it has been so present in their vernacular. It is at the forefront of the way that they speak and they look at each other, she's a mean girl, she's a mean girl, she's not a mean girl. I guess my question, though, to you would be, if we know this, if these people are in pain, then how do we solve this issue?

• 37:22Alex Cooper?

  Like, how can the women who are bullying and abusing redirect that anger and that insecurity, not onto other women, but to where?

• 37:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. One of the reasons why I focus so much of my energy in the White House, in my post-White House years, on just working on issues of women and girls and their empowerment and self-esteem. You know, we're not focused on that strategically or politically. When we, you know, we haven't had conversations in a long time just about education and the education system, or what kind of after-school opportunities are there for kids? I mean, you know, we as a society aren't talking about a lot these days about how

• 38:13Speaker 03

  we are nurturing and protecting our kids. So now everybody is taking it on individually, right? So what do I do with my girls? I'm trying to make sure that they feel seen in their household, because they, you know, and I'm trying to sign them up for activities that make them feel strong and to build confidence. And, you know, I'm doing that for myself, and I'm staying healthy, and, you know, but how do you deal with the problem systemically? Yeah, that's where government and taxpayers and people caring about one another and caring about our kids, it happens because we give.

• 38:56Speaker 03

  Wonderful places for kids, girls to land, you know.

• 39:01Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 39:02Speaker 03

  I think, you know, kids need to, young girls need to be in groups, you know, Girl Scout groups and opportunities, they need to be able to play sports and they need to be able to, they need to have access to things that get them out of their loneliness and off of their phone and, and get their brains and bodies working, right? So, so it's a, I think it's just such a big, you know.

• 39:26Alex Cooper?

  I know, we could be here for

• 39:27Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 39:28Alex Cooper?

  Weeks and days talking about this because you're right, it is such a systemic issue. I, I couldn't help but think too, when you're talking about, you know, bring women together and, and I know how you talk a lot about your kitchen table girlfriends and how integral they have been to your life. And I think every woman can feel that when you have your girlfriends, like you say, you know, love Brock, but they're your sanity, those girls, we, we get each other. The flip side though, is still living in this patriarchal society. It breeds competition between women because there is not enough room for all of us. So there, there's 90 people in the room and the three women are coming in. How can you not feel competitive?

• 40:11Alex Cooper?

  And, and then I think about you in this situation. It's like by society standard now, you are the friend to be jealous of, right? How have you worked through the competitive dynamics with girlfriends and tried to keep it not competitive?

• 40:30Speaker 03

  Well, some of it is like how you pick and choose, right? So in the light, when I talked about the kitchen table, it's like, you've got to be really smart and selective about who you let in, who you let stay in, um, and who, who you let out. Um, you know, who, who is ready to follow the path that you want to go on, right? And that's, that's practice, right? Uh, one of the things that I say to my girls and to young girls, it's like, don't be afraid to make friends. You know, be open, stay open. Um, and I always wanted my girls, no matter what they were going through, it's like try on new people and.

• 41:11Speaker 03

  And let them in because you're strong enough to deal with somebody who might disappoint you because sometimes people disappoint you and if they disappoint you in a way that's dangerous, let them out quickly, you know, slow ghost, get them, get a move on, trust you and the more you practice it, the more you, you, you, you recognize it quicker, you know, and it's so for me, I, I, I think I choose well, first of all, um, and so it starts there. And again, that takes practice. You learn that over time. You learn yourself. And once my friends are in, in my journey, we're all going together, you know, I mean,

• 41:54Speaker 03

  it's just, it's not, it's never just my journey. It's like, you're coming, you know, let's do this, you know. I had to do that really proactively as first lady because we lived in this bubble. And if I wasn't proactive about maintaining my relationships with my friends, everybody could have easily slipped away. You didn't have my phone number. You can't walk up to my door and just, girl, what you up to? It's like, nope, you gotta go through eight rounds of security, you know, hand in your social security card. You gotta, you know, you get, you get a

• 42:26Alex Cooper?

  It's all to do.

• 42:27Speaker 03

  You know, it's like, hey,

• 42:29Alex Cooper?

  You're a high maintenance friend, Michelle.

• 42:30Speaker 03

  I would understand. It's like, you know what? I give up. So, you know,

• 42:35Alex Cooper?

  It's a good point.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  So that's why I said even making friends as first lady, I didn't like write that off. I was like, I'm gonna have to really extend myself for a new mother to be like, okay, Sasha's coming over for a sleepover. We're gonna need to know your social security number. We're gonna, there, there's gonna be a sweep of your home. They're gonna find out, they're gonna wanna know about whether you have guns in the house or drugs. They won't take them from you, but they need to know. There will be men standing out. So what time do you want her to come by?

• 43:09Alex Cooper?

  They're like, I don't know anymore.

• 43:11Speaker 03

  So you, you, you know, that, that kind of helps you. It's like, okay, you ready, you, you, you ready?

• 43:16Alex Cooper?

  You ready?

• 43:17Speaker 03

  Let's go. Um, so I just for me, um, I just, I take my friends with me as much as possible. So you're coming with me. We're doing, you know, we're doing bootcamps, you know, once a quarter, we're going on trips. We're planning the mother daughter ski trip. We're, and a lot of times I would take the lead because you, you know, you can't schedule me.

• 43:42Speaker 03

  You know?

• 43:42Alex Cooper?

  No.

• 43:42Speaker 03

  So realizing those limitations, and I think when you're all kind of, even if people aren't rising or doing the same thing, I've found that if my friends feel like I see them and I'm, I'm like, I want you on my journey and we're all gonna, we're all gonna enjoy this together. It's not me and you. I've found that that's the way I've kept this sort of, am I the friend to be jealous of? It's like, mm hmm. We're all, we're, we're all going up this mountain together.

• 44:18Alex Cooper?

  I mean, I think that my audience needs to hear that because I think it's, it's very present right now in a lot of people's lives. We've got a lot of, you know,

• 44:30Alex Cooper?

  18 to 30, 40 year olds listening and it's like, you're leaving maybe college. Did you get the job? Who's moving? Who's got the boyfriend? Who's got the thing? And it's, it, there's so much

• 44:43Alex Cooper?

  clouded competition because you think, well, oh God, she got married first and I haven't yet, or she had the kid and I didn't yet.

• 44:49Speaker 03

  Well, because this is what we're doing is we're checking boxes, right? And social media kind of, you know, it exacerbates that because now you know what everybody is doing and, and everybody's only posting the good things that they're doing. The thing that I want, want the listeners to know, young women, is that The value of cultivating friendships is important. It's as important, it's as important as the degree that you got in college. It's as important as the job title and the salary. Or the dude you're trying to, you know, catch. Or the, the, the length of your veil on your wedding dress.

• 45:33Speaker 03

  Like that, all that stuff comes and goes. I don't even remember, I remember my wedding, you know? I have the pictures, it was a wonderful day. But my friendships, those relationships are important. And I just want, you know, in the, the, the advent of technology and social media, it's almost like we're telling people, you're okay by yourself. All you need is your phone, some apps and success. And what I'm saying is, no, you need friends. And you have to work on that. That means you have to be a good friend. That means you have to put down your stuff and prioritize your friendships if you want to have them.

• 46:16Alex Cooper?

  Let's talk about that. Because there's so much pressure on women to present as perfect, right? And then get validated for it. And especially you just said on social media, but you think back in the day, two magazines come out a month. And it doesn't mean that there's not, you know, scrutinizing and comparing and everyone looking at it. But it's endless now. It is 24/7.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  All day.

• 46:41Alex Cooper?

  All day. The photoshops and airbrush and we're curating and we're carefully, you know, designing how we want people to think about us. Can you talk a little bit to perfection? And how so many women and girls feel like they need to reach this unattainable goal?

• 46:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh, I mean, I'm generationally kind of, uh, that's, it's, it's the experience that young women, girls are, you know, having now. It is foreign to me. I, you know, I didn't, my, I'm, I'm gonna be 62. I'm an old lady. I'm like my grandmother, right? That's how I'm counting the days and going, you know what? When I thought my grandmother was old, she was my age, right?

• 47:27Alex Cooper?

  Stop, Michelle.

• 47:30Speaker 03

  No, but with as fast as things have changed, we are in the midst of one of the a major industrial revolution. It was, it's like the creation of electricity, right? The TV like this is new, right? And I'm of the old guard, right? So I don't, I don't have the habit. I'm not hooked on it. Like I'm still picking up a book. I'm still calling a friend, right? I don't even know why you would want to be lonely. Like, why are you alone? It's like, don't do that, you know?

• 48:06Alex Cooper?

  Sounds so good when you say it.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  Go to the coffee shop, you know, don't order the thing in, just get out, right? Go to the gym, you know, just because you can be by yourself. Don't, don't do it. So,

• 48:19Speaker 03

  so that it is foreign to me, the, the pressure that you guys feel. But I get it. I, I get it.

• 48:31Speaker 03

  What I want to tell people, young women, is get off the phone. I really do. It's like, it's a habit. It's not a need. And I'm not saying get rid of it. I'm just saying, you've got to get off of the phone and start investing in your in real life stuff and experiences.

• 48:50Alex Cooper?

  But can we go as far to say like, it, it's an addiction?

• 48:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 48:54Alex Cooper?

  Think about this.

• 48:55Speaker 03

  It's intended to be.

• 48:56Alex Cooper?

  Right? Like no, no generation prior to this had four year olds being addicted to something, five year olds, six year olds, 10 year olds. We have addiction right now that we, we cannot stop.

• 49:11Speaker 03

  I am hoping, Alex, that the, the learning curve is going to be quick, right? Because we didn't know, right? It's, this is so new, you know? And now we're starting to get the statistics in on depression. This is real. It's, the, the dip and the rise in depression is directly connected and linked to the creation and rise of social media. And I'm hoping that the society, parents will start understanding that this isn't just a free for all thing. There are great things about it. But there are a lot of problems with it. So we have to stop, we have to start regulating.

• 49:49Alex Cooper?

  Well, we have to start regulating also because I've, you know, I've interfaced with some young kids and I'll be like, why do you want to have this phone over this phone? Or why do you not want to do like, take your phone and put it away for a while? And they're like, because if I don't see it, then I go to school tomorrow. And I am the only person in the class that is not aware of what the entire rest of the class was talking about. So then there's like a bullying element and there's an alienization that's happening where you're like, I don't want to be the only kid that's not clued in and tapped in. So then it cannot be one kid trying to lead the pack.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  And it can't be, right? And that's, some of the experts have said it, Jonathan Haidt, Scott Galloway, a lot of people who've written books about it have said that it would be a lot better if parents in communities made these decisions together, right? So that you, you know, but we're still a long way from that. We're still figuring that out. In the meantime, I don't know that I have a, my message is the old school message of no one is perfect. That stuff isn't real.

• 50:53Alex Cooper?

  It's not real at all.

• 50:54Speaker 03

  It is just not real at all. And so why I write this book and try to talk openly is that if people are listening to me and I'm saying that, look, this face, it takes work to do. And I'm not trying to have a full face every day, you know? I wear makeup when I'm gonna be on TV, right? That no one is living these great lives. It's just, I know that because I live a really great life and it's not always perfect. It's a message that I don't know lands because it's rooted in what I know is the truth. And all I can say is, how do I know? Because I know. And so, don't.

• 51:36Alex Cooper?

  Don't feed into it.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Don't feed into it because, and I can also say, I know a lot of these people that you're looking at. I know a lot of these celebrities.

• 51:45Alex Cooper?

  Girl, same. And I'm like, trust us?

• 51:47Speaker 03

  Right. It's like.

• 51:49Alex Cooper?

  It's not exactly what it seems.

• 51:50Speaker 03

  And this is work. They're getting paid for it, right?

• 51:53Alex Cooper?

  And I think something that you, you know, talking about even just like, there needs to be actual change. And we need to organizationally come together. It is similar to what we're talking about with women and change, right? And I think especially with social media. The amplification of aging and the conversation about aging around women. There are billion dollar brands that are pushing anti-aging, AKA saying as a woman gets older, it is a bad thing to age. Meanwhile, it is a privilege to age, but we have been warped to believe, put this cream on or inject this thing into your face and then you will be deemed more worthy to society. In your book, you talk about aging, right?

• 52:35Alex Cooper?

  And embracing new seasons of life rather than freaking out over, you know, a gray hair or a wrinkle. But how do we as a society fight this demonization of aging women?

• 53:06Alex Cooper?

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• 53:49Alex Cooper?

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• 54:34Alex Cooper?

  workers and counselors. So Daddy Gang, if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/daddy. That's better H E L P dot com slash daddy. How do we as a society fight this demonization of aging women?

• 54:58Speaker 03

  Well, I always say that we just, you know, men get older and wiser and esteemed, right? Women, we just get old, right? Yeah.

• 55:09Alex Cooper?

  It's crazy.

• 55:10Speaker 03

  But the truth is that like I, my 60s are the best time of my life. That's all it's, it's the canary in the coal mine. I'm just telling you, ladies, girls, like it gets better and better and better. You know? Yeah. The youth and your skinny waist when you're 20. Yeah, but you have no money. You don't know what to do with it. I mean, it's like, man, it's, and it's, it's hard, you know? You're confused all your 20s and 30s and I'm just telling people, you're right. Yes, it's confusing and it feels painful, but it's, it gets better.

• 55:50Speaker 03

  And so for me, I'm also, you know, what we are, what we don't do is celebrate the wisdom of older women, right? I mean, there's so much that older women know for sure. Like it's like, we were there, I got the answer. I can really, like, I know, I, I did it, right? I'm not saying I know because I'm smarter. I just tried all that. I failed. That doesn't, you know, you can literally go, that's not gonna work for you. Doesn't mean you're not gonna try it, but when it doesn't, like, I can tell you don't feel badly that you failed because it wasn't ever going to work.

• 56:33Speaker 03

  And there was only one way to learn that is that you did it and it's okay that you, you did. Like, there's so much we have to offer, but what do we do? We Instead of, you know, podcasts and blogs and social media being run by really wise women who actually have facts, right? It's a bunch of kids who are like, you don't know. You, I know you don't know. I mean, like, I love a parenting blog for sure. You know, when it comes to the best bottle and the new contraptions, because it, that stuff is better.

• 57:10Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 57:11Speaker 03

  Like, I'm like, wow, I wish I had that stroller that you can just pop and close. But like, who do I want to listen to on like, childhood behavioral stuff? I want to talk to a woman, a parent, not just woman. I want to see what your adult children look like. I just want to meet them.

• 57:31Alex Cooper?

  Facts.

• 57:32Speaker 03

  Before I figure out whether I'm going to follow your theory. Because when you're young, you don't know.

• 57:37Alex Cooper?

  You're just living it. You're seeing if it's working. You're testing it.

• 57:40Speaker 03

  And so I think the social, you know, the social connection of mother, young mothers or young parents struggling, that's a cool thing. But guess who has some real wisdom around? Like, I tried this and it failed. Like, this really, but where are those bloggers? Where are those conversations happening? And where are young women just coming to ask, to say, well, let me, you know, sit down with my moms and my aunts?

• 58:04Alex Cooper?

  It's such a good point, Michelle. But then again, I think because of the, the competition and the misogyny and how warped our brains are, I see women in the comment section saying, aren't you too old to be doing that? Aren't you too be old to be doing this? And so, but again, it's all projection. It's the fear of getting older. It's like, how can the absence or the presence of wrinkles on my forehead dictate the, the, like, words that are coming out of my mouth and how much you actually respect them or don't respect them? And so aging for women, it's this fear when really, again, like you said, for men, it's like, we're washed up, they're wise.

• 58:41Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 58:42Alex Cooper?

  It gives them integrity.

• 58:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:44Alex Cooper?

  We're irrelevant. And so there's this push and pull that I think at some point, you're right, women have to look inward and start to say, why am I not tapping into this older generation who is looking down, being like, the hand's out, we got you, girls.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  And I think those are great conversations for young women to have with one another. Right, because I think I haven't met an older woman that isn't like, like you want to know, you're asking?

• 59:10Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 59:10Speaker 03

  Sit down, let's talk. I don't want you to fail. I want you to be better than me because now I really am not competing. Like all that stuff that was going on, you, we learned, it didn't help. It didn't, it just messed up a lot of stuff. So now, you know, we can really look at that generate, at least I know I'm in that place.

• 59:32Alex Cooper?

  No, it's a great point.

• 59:33Speaker 03

  Like it's the favorite thing I have to do, which is impart some something that I learned to somebody younger.

• 59:40Alex Cooper?

  That's why, speaking of, you know, you have this wisdom, you have talked about the gender gap when it comes to confidence. As women, we are, you know, often doubted and underestimated by others and ourselves. We struggle with imposter syndrome while men walk around with what you call unearned confidence. As someone who has been such a symbol of strength for women around the world, when did you doubt yourself the most and how did you get through those periods?

• 1:00:13Speaker 03

  Wow. Um, you know, your twenties and thirties are tough times, right? Because I always, I've, I've, I've learned or felt that women were less, or at least I was less likely to claim what I knew. Because I was always, there was always, maybe I don't know. And well, and I don't want to, I don't want to sound too pompous, or let me not cut you off. Um, you know, we're, we're, we're more socialized to don't step on toes because then you're bossy. You know, there's also a little smackdown of it, you know? It's like, well, if you're, if you're a little too aggressive, now you're aggressive. You're, you're, you're

• 1:00:58Speaker 03

  not. So sometimes those labels happen and we get them. I mean, my, my own mother, I was, she was like, you're a bossy. I'm the bossy one, you know? It's like, I felt like the bossy one my whole life. And I know a lot of outspoken young girls who were labeled as the bossy ones in their family when they were probably the ones that like had good instincts and were organized and had opinions and, you know, so that stuff is actually happening to us. It's not in our minds.

• 1:01:27Alex Cooper?

  Right. It's like self doubt because. You are young and you are figuring it out. And so the imposter syndrome, I, you know, in your book, I love how you talk about this because you talk about the tension that we often face as women between wanting to be viewed as both a woman of substance and a woman of style. And so, right, in other words, it's like you want to be respected for your brain and you also, you want to be cool. You want to have a career and you want to have a romantic relationship. You somehow managed multiple identities at the same time. You were an attorney and you were on the cover of Vogue. You were known as mom in chief and you were meeting with the leaders of foreign countries.

• 1:02:12Alex Cooper?

  How did you nurture all of those identities and stay whole? Because this is so relevant to my audience right now. They're struggling to be multiple things at once and feel confident about it.

• 1:02:25Speaker 03

  What I've come to learn is that this, can you have it all? Yes, not at the same time. And I think that we beat ourselves up because here's what I, there are a lot, lot of women who are listening, a lot of women, period, who I will call 120 percenters. That means that just showing up means we're not just showing up. We're excelling because we've always had to do that to get a seat at the table. We have to be smarter and brighter and, and we kind of do because if you slip up, you know, you don't necessarily get a second chance or the benefit of the doubt. Or, so we've been trained to do that. So now we're operating like that and trying to do it with everything that we're doing.

• 1:03:08Speaker 03

  And 120% plus 120% plus 120% adds up to crazy.

• 1:03:14Alex Cooper?

  And a mental breakdown.

• 1:03:15Speaker 03

  Exactly. So one of the things I had to learn is that, like, a lot of times my 50% is good enough, but I have to first be okay with it, right? So when it came to...

• 1:03:32Speaker 03

  Raising my kids and keeping my job when I felt the push of, I don't know if I'm like, am I there for my kids like I want to? Like I had to stop breastfeeding and I had to do this and I had to go back. Um, but I like having the salary and being able to pay up down our student debt and why walk away from that? Um, what I realized was like, okay, I, I can't be driving hard at my job at this time. My husband is in politics. He has three jobs. Somebody's gotta take it down a notch. So I, I've learned to stay in the car, keep your foot on the gas,

• 1:04:14Speaker 03

  but just don't floor it all the time on all things. You don't, that doesn't mean you have to break. That didn't mean I have to pull the car over and get out. It just means that there will be aspects of parts of those, your, yourself that you can't go 120%. And then that means that we as women have to accept a little bit less from ourselves than we're used to. And that, that takes, you have to just get used to that. And it's all in here, right? It's, it's all the internal message. Like if you have a job, maybe you aren't going to be able to make homemade baby food, you know? And guess what? Like I loved the jar face. Like there was nothing

• 1:04:59Speaker 03

  better than that dinner. I was like, whoa. I, when they started needing real, real food, I was like, ah, curses. I gotta cook. But that stage, you know, sweet potatoes. I loved it. And I'd just go to the grocery store. I'd be like, look at mom. Figure you're gonna have a little beef here, a little carrot in a jar. I, you know, I mean, I love it. I love it. It's so real though. So you have to be kinda okay with, that's not gonna kill them. Or maybe you, you can't breastfeed for a year because you can't. Um, you don't like it. Your body isn't able to. You had to go back to work.

• 1:05:40Speaker 03

  Baby's gonna be fine, you know, I mean, our parents didn't even breastfeed. I mean, there was a generation of women that were told, Similac, here you go. I am a formula baby, 5'11", brains working just fine.

• 1:05:55Alex Cooper?

  Just, just a little, just a little bit.

• 1:05:58Speaker 03

  Just a little bit, you know, so, you know, we have to take some pressure off of ourselves. It's like, why are we trying to bounce back? What's the bounce back? What's the, you're gonna have a baby, your whole body is twisted up and then you wanna like be back at the gym? Doing solid core at the, why, why are we doing this to ourselves?

• 1:06:19Alex Cooper?

  And I think the comparison for women, when especially mothers, um, I've seen again, because social media, it just is nonstop. We don't know what everyone's going through.

• 1:06:30Speaker 03

  People are lying.

• 1:06:31Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 1:06:31Speaker 03

  They're lying.

• 1:06:32Alex Cooper?

  And so when you're saying you're popping the jar open and you put it on the plate, you're taking a picture of the plate. You're like, look at the feel I made.

• 1:06:38Speaker 03

  And you know, it's just like, let's not do that to each other. Let's be more honest about the struggle. I'm try, I try to do that, you know, um, and I am constantly telling young mothers, like you, it's coming, right? You don't have to get off your career track and I don't even recommend it because kids grow up fast. And then they're gone, like you've sacrificed everything and you know, when they leave, they leave. They close the door and act like you never sacrificed. They're like, I remember you, I don't need you anymore, right? So what, I'm like, you better have saved something for yourself so that when that period comes

• 1:07:18Speaker 03

  and they're ready to move on and you're also not holding on longer because now what am I gonna do? I devoted everything to you and I need to, now I've got to fill my time. So I always, I encourage people to hang in there and keep something for yourself throughout this process, but that means you don't, you're, maybe you're not gonna be VP in five years. Like if you have in your mind that there's a track and there's only one way to do it. That's what trips us up a lot of times. Like I'm gonna be partner by the time I'm 28. Hey, look, if you live until you're eighty, ninety, there's so much time.

• 1:08:02Speaker 03

  There's so much, and I tell people, look, I had to get off a track and take pay cuts and come back, sacrifice because my husband was president, you know?

• 1:08:11Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:12Speaker 03

  That, that was kind of a, you know, so, um, but in the midst of that, I still managed to be a lawyer, run a nonprofit. I can run down the list, be an author, you know? I raised really sane kids who, you know, aren't perfect, but I, they're really, really good. So there is time, but we have to be, we have to give ourselves a lot more grace in the process. That would, that, that's what I've learned. Giving myself grace, it's like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not getting it all right. And, and then we, we as women have to be, we have to support each other.

• 1:08:55Speaker 03

  We just really have to stop being a part of the fantasy, you know? It, it, it's not serving us, it's not true, you know? And it's okay to not be happy sometimes, like, that's also a thing. You, you know, like, not being perfectly satisfied and in the exact place that you want. Every part of your life is that, like, that's what life is.

• 1:09:24Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, that's what life is, and I love how you said, like, but I understand that society makes women feel like they have to be perfect.

• 1:09:30Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:09:30Alex Cooper?

  It's very uncomfortable at first, when you're like, I'm not succeeding and I'm not doing the best. Like, it reminds me, um, in your memoir, how you would tell your girls to always start dinner, even if your husband hadn't come home yet, because I didn't want them to ever believe that life began when the man of the house arrived home. We didn't wait for dad, it was his job to now catch up with us. I think society puts such a pressure on women to prioritize finding a man over finding a career and a life that they love. As women, I would love your wisdom and advice of like, how do we prioritize finding fulfillment within ourselves first?

• 1:10:10Alex Cooper?

  Before finding fulfillment in a marriage or a partnership.

• 1:10:14Speaker 03

  I think it starts with the subliminal messages that we send our, our girls.

• 1:10:22Speaker 03

  And I'm really, I have two beautiful daughters and you know, you find yourself slipping up and going, are you dating anyone? And it's like, like, let me not make that the first question or the second question or a question at all. Like, let me, you know, because I hear it being asked, you run out of stuff to say to a young girl, it's like, you dating anyone?

• 1:10:46Speaker 03

  You know, it's like, I, I just, in our girl group, I'm, when it comes up and we do that, I try to talk to our, my mom friends about it and what, what that's doing. What are our own insecurities as mothers, like that we're like, well, you seem happy and you're on a track, but do you have a boyfriend? Like, like that, you know?

• 1:11:11Alex Cooper?

  So bad.

• 1:11:12Speaker 03

  It's just a, it's a, when you, when you break it down like that, it's like, those are the little things that no matter what. And then despite what your parents say, it's just the social pressure. You see everybody getting married. You, so I think we have to be mindful of the, the way we craft questions to our, not just our daughters, but our sons. How we talk about what happiness is and we have to work hard to separate our fears and insecurities as parents.

• 1:11:45Speaker 03

  We have to separate that from our kids, right? Because we're still carrying these old images. We are still programmed. We are still of a generation where that's what women did. You went to, we did go to college. We were different. There was the expectation that you went to college. We all got our degrees. But everybody started getting their MRS, as they called it, out of college. And that was also a part of it. And you'd have a career, but you do it until you got pregnant. You know, so we have to admit that women of my generation, there was a, there was a path. And we, and we carry that with us and we imprint that onto our kids.

• 1:12:27Speaker 03

  As like, this is the way that I know that you'll be happy. So I can stop worrying about you. And I can know that you'll have a good life.

• 1:12:36Alex Cooper?

  It's such a good point of like, you know, putting the former beliefs and system on to the new generations. Cause like you even think about it, like, why do women have miss, misses and then miss? And men never change from mister. They are.

• 1:12:54Speaker 03

  You're just, you're always you. Once again, you don't have to evolve. See, we, we're even evolving. What do I call myself?

• 1:13:00Alex Cooper?

  We're changing up here.

• 1:13:01Speaker 03

  Right? You know, it's like, I went through that too. When I got married, I was like, okay, I'm gonna meet Michelle Robinson Obama. Right? And I did that. I was, I was in a real career and it, I felt like this is a lot of name.

• 1:13:15Alex Cooper?

  It feels like a little silly.

• 1:13:16Speaker 03

  Michelle Robinson Obama. Hello. I did that for like a month and I was like, okay, that, that's, I'm tired, you know?

• 1:13:24Alex Cooper?

  Me too.

• 1:13:25Speaker 03

  I gotta write that down. That's long. Three syllables for three names.

• 1:13:28Alex Cooper?

  It's too much. It's too much.

• 1:13:29Speaker 03

  So I was like, okay, let me pick one. And I stuck with Obama because I had a brother. I didn't come from a family that my father was like, carry the name. You know, it was like, it's a name. Um, and I was like, Obama is really strange name. So let's all just be this strange name together, you know? Let's just all take it on, you know?

• 1:13:51Alex Cooper?

  It's a good name. It's a good name.

• 1:13:53Speaker 03

  I'll take it.

• 1:13:53Alex Cooper?

  I'll take it. Fine.

• 1:13:54Speaker 03

  But that was the, that was the thought. It's like, let me just pick. But he didn't, he wasn't going through this. He wasn't changing his license and his social security number and, you know, he, he, you know? So yeah, another way that we evolve and it's another way to send a subliminal message that it is up, up to us to do the evolving.

• 1:14:12Alex Cooper?

  It is. And, and I love how you've spoken about, um, society's expectations, we're discussing obviously, of women to stay nice and to stay passive and small and how hard it is if you are a driven, ambitious woman, trying to make a big impact. When we talk about dating for my audience, so many women, I think then, if they are going against the societal norms and they're like, okay, I'm going to focus on myself. I'm gonna pour into myself. I'm going to focus on being an individual. I don't need a man. I want a man, but I don't need a man. Then it brings the whole caliber of, oh God, then you have to potentially shrink yourself when you do find a man, because you're so sure of yourself and that is terrifying for most men.

• 1:14:57Alex Cooper?

  And so they're threatened and you're kind of trying to play the game and you can't be your full self. Did you ever feel like you had to do that when you first met Barack Obama? And you were an experienced lawyer and he was, you know, a summer associate?

• 1:15:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:15Speaker 03

  Fortunately, it was one of the things that drew me to him. You know, like, I didn't have to, I didn't have to change my fundamental self. I think it helped that we started out that summer with me not seeing him as a potential because I was his advisor. And I was like, yeah, no, we're not going to do that. Right? And why? You know, he's cute, but I have a lot of friends. And so I think that helped. Right? Because I wasn't, we didn't start up our relationship as, oh, I'm gonna try to, mm, yeah. You know, and maybe it would have. But I think we kind of entered it, you know, as, as peers, you know?

• 1:15:59Speaker 03

  And we developed our relationship because we had the same kind of humor. And we'd make the same kind of jokes and we'd find the same things kind of corny, you know? And I was being fully myself cynical in ways and, you know, I'd pick at it, pick at them and be like, that's weird. Why do you do that? I mean, so the fact that that made him think we should date. Right? It's like that meant that, like, that didn't repel him. That was like, he was like, and I was like, no, we shouldn't date because that looks tacky. And it was like, I don't care what people say.

• 1:16:36Speaker 03

  So it's like, you know, so what do I tell a lot of young girls? Like, dating different people helped me to, to see the difference in who Barack was when he showed up. I don't, you know, if he had been the first person I dated because I just didn't date, I might have taken that for granted. I might have thought, yeah, well, that, these are buddy vibes, right? I had learned enough to know this is, this is different in a, in an important way. And I just think that's the experience of dating different people and noticing in, in the end, it's, I want young listeners to focus more on their internal feelings.

• 1:17:19Speaker 03

  It's like really, instead of what is hap, what, what the world is telling you to feel.

• 1:17:27Speaker 03

  Really start trusting your gut and building that internal gut of how you feel about other people, how you feel about yourself. Cause I think in the end, the work is still within. Like the only thing you really can can control is you in this world. And even in my marriage now, you know, you go through the period of, I want him to be different. I want him to do this differently. I've grown to know, I don't have control over him, just like he doesn't have control over me. So let me do my work and let him do our work. And together we come together as whole people.

• 1:18:08Speaker 03

  And so I want our, our, our, our listeners, cause they're mine now too, right? Bring them in, Michelle. Like let's do, do the work on self. Like start feeling good about yourself. Start working on your health. Start feeling strong within yourself. Start practicing self-esteem. Start working on building your relationships and your friendships. You know, um, work on being as whole as you can be. Because you can't control who's gonna love you, who's gonna like you, who's gonna give you a job, who's gonna see you the way you wanna be seen. Because everybody has their own stuff.

• 1:18:53Speaker 03

  And so you can't define yourself by other people's stuff. So like, how do we become more confident individuals? We have to practice that, work on ourselves. We have to know, pick apart those aspects of our childhood that we carry around. I am a believer in therapy. I am, I am in, I go to therapy. We've been in couples therapy. I believe in the practice of having those conversations with objective people who help you piece through that stuff.

• 1:19:25Speaker 03

  And it's a constant, it's, it's constant work. You don't get to a point where like, I'm there, I'm done, I'm good. It's over, right? And then, so I don't want people to be intimidated by, like, this is what life is. We are ever growing, evolving, improving. There isn't like a finish line where you get an A and you're now a whole person perfectly. It, it, I'm 62, it doesn't happen. My mother was 86 when she died and there were parts of her that she was still building upon. And so it's not in your 80s. You know, I had a great conversation with Jane Fonda and Beth Ann Hardison on my podcast about aging in the public eye. They're still

• 1:20:08Speaker 03

  having those conversations with themselves about evolving. And I think that that is the power that we have as women, is that we know we have to keep evolving. And so we do. A lot of men don't, they don't.

• 1:20:23Alex Cooper?

  It's so true. I, um,

• 1:20:25Speaker 03

  They're just like here and proud of it.

• 1:20:26Alex Cooper?

  Right, because

• 1:20:27Speaker 03

  I've worn these same pants for 20. It's like, don't say that. Like, that's not cool.

• 1:20:33Alex Cooper?

  It's not impressive.

• 1:20:34Speaker 03

  It's not impressive.

• 1:20:35Alex Cooper?

  Not impressive. No, it's so inspiring, the way that you are speaking about this because,

• 1:20:43Alex Cooper?

  I remember I was so fortunate, I got to interview Jane Goodall. And she talked a lot about how she was still pushing and she was still going because she still wanted to learn. And I think having an appetite to learn means you want to change and you want to evolve and you want to grow. And I agree with you, the power of the system basically fucking us, being like, you're not enough and you need to be this. It does force us to constantly have our head on a swivel. So in a beautiful way, you have to find the positives. We're forced to be so multifaceted and we're forced to know who we are in so many different lanes. And we're also forced at average 18,

• 1:21:26Alex Cooper?

  21, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80. We have to constantly be thinking how we're evolving because society is forcing us to do that. But if we can use it to our advantage, that's when you become unstoppable.

• 1:21:37Speaker 03

  And we can give ourselves grace in the process. Because in the end, I think we're all just too hard on ourselves, that it starts there, right? And so you're your, you're your first fan. And if your first fan is like, you're just kicking your ass. Like, of course, you're mad and bitchy and wanna beat the other woman. Of course, that you're competitive within yourself, right? And so that's where it splatters out onto everything else. And I think that women, we need to be kinder to ourselves, really gentler, you know?

• 1:22:17Alex Cooper?

  The anger that can come up with the double standards. I just wanna make sure we hit on this, cuz I feel a lot of, in a beautiful way, yes, are, there is a lot going on with this, these generations. But we are vocal and people are saying how they feel. But it is crazy how the world still punishes outspoken women and judges us more harshly than men who literally say the exact same thing as us, right? At the beginning of your husband's first campaign, you were labeled an angry black woman because you were speaking assertively and honestly.

• 1:22:51Speaker 03

  And passionately.

• 1:22:52Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, you referenced that earlier of how they turned passion into anger. What advice would you give to strong women in this upcoming generation right now who are listening, who have been labeled a bitch or too much or too passionate? And they're doing the same exact thing as their male counterparts.

• 1:23:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Well, there's, you know, there's still strategy in, in all of it, right? You know, what I found that I had to do? I had to be more thoughtful about my tone. I didn't agree with it, right? But I was like, until people get to know me, okay, let me smile a little bit more. Let me make sure I smile, right? Because sometimes I'm talking and it's like, and that's the photo they get, ah, right? So that's on the front page. I was like, I didn't feel that way, but that was in the middle. And I don't, I don't, I didn't like this, but I'm like, okay, we're, we're, we still live in a society that has a different standard for women.

• 1:23:56Speaker 03

  So it's just like with fashion, let me, let me understand the game. And let me, let me, let me play the game. All right. So instead of being angry about being called angry, I was like, okay, let me be careful about doing extemporaneous speaking, right? Cause I can do it. But then I launch, right? That's why I do more speeches publicly because I can take time and think about what I want to say and how I want to say it and sort of think about, you know, how I come off. I think now the more people have gotten to know me, right? At this stage in my life, I feel like, this is why I say, okay,

• 1:24:39Speaker 03

  if you know me, you know, you've heard me enough. You know my heart. You know, yeah, I, I can be funny, but angry? Eh, nah, not really. I'm not that angry about that. I am angry about stuff. I'm angry about injustice, unfairness. I hate bullies. There's a lot I'm angry about. And I, and I feel justified in being angry about it. So, all right, you got me. I am angry about some things, but generally, right? But it takes some time to earn that, right? Um, so as I'm talking to younger women, it's like, understand how people are going to come at you, you know, and then think about how you want to deal with that.

• 1:25:22Speaker 03

  Because it's, it's not gonna go away. So what's your strategy of re- understanding that this is part of the game? That it, that it doesn't define you. But if you're, like, I think it is more important for me to get the point across than to be right about how I do it. Um, especially in the world that we're in, which was, it's the country, right? So I, my, it wasn't about me. It's not how I feel. Like, to me, that's what you, the responsibility of being a leader, that's not your feelings anymore. Like, I can have my feelings now, because everything I'm doing is about me.

• 1:26:04Speaker 03

  But when I was first lady and when I'm doing public things, it's like, okay, my ego, so how do I, how do I get this to work? You know, um, that's what I think about. And if, if, if I'm, if I'm delivering something in a way that makes the message fall short on some ears, then I'm going to change it because I want people to get the message. It doesn't matter how I feel. I'm okay with making some changes to get this thing done.

• 1:26:35Alex Cooper?

  Right. It's such good advice, Michelle. Like even for myself personally, I'm, I feel like a sponge right now. I'm like, keep talking, just keep going. Like how much more time we have because it's so relevant to the way that women live right now. It's like, there are more ambitious women than ever, which is amazing. There are women working. We finally are allowed to vote. We all have credit cards. Great. Now we actually have ambition and we're trying and it is an uphill battle. But we are being met with like, wait, I said the same thing to him. Why didn't that work? It is, we have to acknowledge the game. And I think for a while, potentially, especially with feminists and everything, we felt weird being like, no, play the game because it feels like we are twisting

• 1:27:20Alex Cooper?

  something and we're being sneaky. And it's like, no, no, no, no, we are the other. We are the other. So when we are coming in, it's, we're always playing someone else's game as women. We are the other sex. So it's okay if you are trying to move a certain way because we live in a man's world. And so you have to sometimes placate and smile and do these things. But if you get your message across, that's kind of all that matters. If you get what you wanted to get done.

• 1:27:43Speaker 03

  And the other piece of that is that when we do have power, let's just not become male versions of the thing that was, female versions of the thing that was broken, you know, because a lot of this has to do with leverage, right? So if you, if you don't have the power to change it, then you've got to work to get the power. And sometimes there are compromises that have to be made to get the power. And then when you get the power, when you're the boss, when you're running your own thing, then how do you behave as the leader? That like then, like, because this is your culture you're setting. When you're in charge of the culture, and if you're still, if you're perpetuating the game.

• 1:28:28Alex Cooper?

  Then you're a problem.

• 1:28:29Speaker 03

  And not approving it.

• 1:28:30Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:31Speaker 03

  You know, that means that then you lost the plot on the way in. So like, as we're being ambitious women, when we do get that thing, then who are you in it? How are you changing culture? How are you shifting? Or are you just repeating the mistakes that made you play the game in the first place? The game is to get the power to have impact, to broaden the aperture of what is possible. But when we do have the power, if we're, if we're oppressing, if we're shouting down, if we're not including, if, you know, if you're in charge of the dress code, change it, you know?

• 1:29:10Speaker 03

  If, if you are the head of HR and there are ways that you can make life easier for, uh, you know, working mothers and families, then be the advocate at the table and don't say, well, I had to, when I, you know, I didn't have this when I was there, so you have to pay the same dues.

• 1:29:30Alex Cooper?

  Be the change.

• 1:29:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, be the change and don't like, you don't want everybody to have to pay your dues. If you know the dues were there, then open it up for your, the, the next generation. Make your seat the seat that makes it easier for others like you to be there.

• 1:29:48Alex Cooper?

  Something as you're saying that, to bring men into this conversation, which I was watching your speech in 2016 today, um, when you were, the whole speech was really about women and you were, um, you know, there for Hillary. And it was such a beautiful moment because you're like, and men, men listening. And I, I think sometimes I don't want ever to have men leave the conversation.

• 1:30:11Speaker 03

  Feel like.

• 1:30:12Alex Cooper?

  And be like, oh, I guess.

• 1:30:13Speaker 03

  That's not about me.

• 1:30:14Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, it's not about me and it's us against you and it's a whole thing. So I think to bring men into this conversation, um, you've talked about some really important male figures in your life. You've talked about your father, your brother, your husband. How do we bring men in and make them allies and partners to help solve these issues? Because women cannot do this alone. We need them.

• 1:30:36Speaker 03

  No, no. I mean, look, I, I, as the older I get, I realized how blessed and rare my existence was as a woman in the world, to be surrounded by so many amazing men where I was always safe.

• 1:30:55Speaker 03

  Like in realizing that like that's more unique. Like abuse, neglect, none of it. I had uncles and brothers and, you know, grand, both of my grandfathers, right? I now understand how rare that is. Like, it's sad and it makes me sad to know that so many of us women and girls don't, can't say that, that they had someone in their life that, um, that harmed them in some way. They were harmed at the hands of a man that they couldn't trust.

• 1:31:36Speaker 03

  I didn't have that, um, and I feel blessed and I understand that's unique. So in that sense, we can't lump men into a category, right? Because there are a lot of allies, you know? They, they're different from us that, you know, we can joke. It's like, nah, you're not that good at that and you're, you know, but I, I have, I've grown up with wonderful men who my, the men in my life may help me with this confidence, you know? I was always a part of the, of the crew. I was never the little girl out. My father always thought he's gonna learn to box, you're gonna learn to box, you know?

• 1:32:21Speaker 03

  My brother protected me, right? So we can't forget that there are so many good men that, you know, it, it isn't an us against them. And we're the ones raising them still. You know, um, we, we have so much to, uh, impact into how our young men are shaped as mothers and as women in the, in the world. And so we have to see them as essential allies from the, the moment they show up in the world. So, but we can't love them into complacency or incapability. You know, we're always building the men that we want.

• 1:33:06Speaker 03

  And so my message to those men, you know, when I'm in a room full of CEOs and men, the thing I say to them, assuming that I'm talking to all the good ones, it's like, I know you love your daughters, right? Because we're of a generation now where the way my father fathered me is not unique anymore. Like now we have fathers who want their little girls to be CEOs. Like, like you raise them and you want them to believe that they can be anything, right? And so now you're in power. So the question is, are you building the world that you told your little girl existed? Right?

• 1:33:49Speaker 03

  Are you, can you look around the C-suite that you run? And say that the little girl that I put all these thoughts and ideas in, that she'll be safe at this table that I've created and that I control. And I'm, I'm hoping that if men think about the tables they're creating, and they're not just looking at the women they don't know, women that are not their children, that, you know, it's like, men don't raise us, right? So maybe they don't see us as part of them. But maybe if you see your daughter at the table, that you'll do the work to make the table a place that will respect and honor the, the world that you told her she could have.

• 1:34:32Speaker 03

  Because I always say, then if you don't, you were lying to her. Because she's gonna enter this world with the beliefs that you built her up. You know, you built her up, you set her up. And that can be crushing. And it's interesting when I put it that way. Like, those rooms can go a little quiet in a way that I think, I don't know that there are men thinking about that allyship in that way. Like, putting themselves in the role of their daughters that they're raising, right?

• 1:35:09Alex Cooper?

  But that's why even just this conversation, Michelle, it's like, I can already see it just like clipping that, having that out there for people to consume what you're just saying. Like, I do think I can recognize as a woman, as much as you can think, "Oh, my God, like, I hate these frickin' men." That is going to help all of us get closer to this goal of, "We do deserve to be equal to men. We really do, and we still aren't." And so it's like, you have to allow the people who are in the position of power to let us in, and so to completely alienate them. I think a lot of men in this generation are like, "I don't even know what I'm supposed to do. I guess, like, women just fucking hate me. I'm just gonna sit over here." And it's like, no, no, no, no. Do not, we cannot lose their attention. And I think this message is important.

• 1:35:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36:11Alex Cooper?

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• 1:37:10Alex Cooper?

  You said that not going to Trump's inauguration was an act of getting even more comfortable saying no, regardless of what people think, which was so powerful because as women, that's how we're trained. People, please say yes at all costs. Has getting comfortable with saying no changed your perspective about your very famous line, when they go low, we go high? And do you think that the message still applies, given the enormity of what women are up against today?

• 1:37:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. You know, in the light, I tried to, I tackled that question. Do we still go high? Right? And I, and I start by saying, like, the point, what going high means to me is what we talk, getting to the solution. It's, it's outcome determinative, right? Like, what are we, what is our strategic goal? And going high means that we are working strategically towards that goal with a plan and some objectives, and, and it's not purely emotional, right?

• 1:38:25Speaker 03

  That doesn't mean that emotions don't exist, because they do. I do feel anger. I do feel pain and hurt. But if my anger is leading and it doesn't work, then what's, what are we doing? Now I'm just indulging myself. Now I'm just having a tantrum, you know? And some people want that. They're like, I want to see you have the tantrum that I want to have, right? I was like, but if the tantrum's not going to work. Then what is the point? And when you're a leader, in my mind, you should have a point other than self indulgence. You know, indulging your, your anger, right? Because we can get lost in that.

• 1:39:10Speaker 03

  So going high to me is feel the feelings. But where are you trying to go with them? And let that lead. That's what going high is. Thinking before you talk. I mean, we, we, we teach our kids that. I mean, that's what it is. It's like, count to ten. You know, because like how I feel at the kitchen table? Like, like, that's what the kitchen table is for. Like, get all that out. Say all the things you want to say. And then look at it and say, is that how you really feel? Because usually after you step back a little bit and it's like, yeah, well, I would take that out. And I said all of them and always I used a lot of absolutes. That's not true. Now that I'm on ten.

• 1:39:53Speaker 03

  So let me, let me ref- ref- refine that a little bit. Let me take that. And then you'll find out that half the stuff you threw out there in anger isn't even true. And it's not how you really feel. So now you should go out and communicate what you really feel really clearly that you think will. That's, that's what going high is. So, yeah, I think we should always be trying to go high. And I think as anybody with a platform, a powerful platform, it's a responsibility, right? Because that, that, that platform is powerful. Like the word you say, move people. And you can move them to productivity. Or you can move them to division.

• 1:40:38Speaker 03

  You can move them to hate. Um, it is like, anybody with a platform can do that. So now, we now have a responsibility. If you want the platform, then be, it's like a gun. Like, learn how to use it. Put the safety lock on, you know, um, because you can cause a lot of damage. But you can also do a lot of good. You know, um, and that's what going high means. And yes, I still think that. But have the feelings. You know, I'm not telling people that you're feel like, just like us as women. Yes, it's not fair. It sucks. The, the, the, the standards are double.

• 1:41:23Speaker 03

  We're killing ourselves. You know, we're in over, we're inundated with messages that are wrong. Um, feel that. Don't feel like you're crazy for feeling it. Wrong is wrong. Like, you know, bad is bad. You know, and going high doesn't mean to ignore that. And, and we need to feel those feelings to act. But how we act on those feelings is the going high part is, is my point.

• 1:41:56Alex Cooper?

  Michelle, I need to hang out with you more. Um, okay. Wow, I'm just like, I'm gonna like, watch that back every day. What you just said, holy shit. Um, I want to ask you about a recent comment you made about a female presidency. You said, don't even look at me about running because you all are lying. You're not ready for a woman. You're not. As a country, what do we need to do to be ready? Like, what is it going to take?

• 1:42:30Speaker 03

  Look, we've come a long way. You know, um, and what my husband has said, and I agree with, change takes time. And context matters. Right? Fifty years ago, we were fighting for the equal rights bill. You know, I mean, just that's in, there are people alive today, you know, that, you know, couldn't marry the opposite race. You know, couldn't love who you loved. I mean, this is recent history of a country that's been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's been going along this way, and then boom, there is a lot of change.

• 1:43:14Speaker 03

  It just happened. But, but that means that the remnants of what has been there and what we've been socialized is really deeply embedded in who we are. And whether people really feel yet that they can follow a woman as president. Like, we would just be silly to think that there aren't just some gut, kinda, I don't know. Like, we're not even analyzing what those feelings are about because we're trying to pretend like it's all better. And I just think, well, how could it be all better? You know? I mean, we, we've been feeding off of this bone for so long. It doesn't just go away.

• 1:43:58Speaker 03

  It takes time. Right? So, but we're moving. We are moving in that direction. So, that statement was, you know, there was the humor of it, like, stop looking at me. Right? You know? So that it's also my wry humor. It's like, come on, people. You know, there were people who, there are, there are men out there that were not gonna vote for a woman. You know, that's, though, you, you, people have had those conversations. Right? Let's just be real about it and let's put that on the table and talk about, well, what's that about? Let's not be mad because I made the statement. Let's look at the fact that we've had two really qualified female candidates.

• 1:44:38Speaker 03

  One who was First Lady, Secretary of State, well-educated, you know? My husband beat her. Right? People were more comfortable with him as a newcomer. Right? And now we just had the former, the former Vice President. You know, we've had, we've had qualified women and they just, you know, again, if they're not perfect and they don't cross every T and dot every I, there's a falling shortness that is happening that I, you know, I'd say, look, well, why can't we talk about that? Why are we pretending that that didn't just happen?

• 1:45:18Alex Cooper?

  I wanted also just to let you know, I agree with you, Michelle. I agree with you. My question back to everyone who's like, oh, no, we're ready. It's like, how could a woman hold the highest seat in the government when she has less rights than half the population?

• 1:45:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:45:35Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. How, how, how would that even be? How would that work? We don't have legally equal rights to men. How would a woman sit above? Met like it does it's we're not there and so there were some people even within the Democratic Party that disagreed with your statement publicly. People came out and just said, you know, just because we didn't like the candidates, that doesn't mean we aren't ready for a woman.

• 1:45:58Speaker 03

  Well, I hope so. Like, yeah, great, you know, and look, that mean that doesn't mean that women should roll up their sleeves and call it a day, you know, like, we're still growing, you know, so yeah, I think it's gonna happen. Are we ready now? I don't know. Let prove us wrong. I would love that, right?

• 1:46:20Alex Cooper?

  Michelle, if this incentivize everyone to prove us wrong, I'd be like, really?

• 1:46:27Speaker 03

  It's like, all right. And I'll be the first be like, you're right.

• 1:46:30Alex Cooper?

  You're right.

• 1:46:31Speaker 03

  Statement. My bad, my bad.

• 1:46:32Alex Cooper?

  We're like, we piss them off so much. They're like, no, we'll show you.

• 1:46:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's do that.

• 1:46:37Alex Cooper?

  Please.

• 1:46:37Speaker 03

  And look, for all the young women that we're talking to, keep, keep climbing. If you want to be president of the United States, doggone it, then yes, yes, you can, right? So yeah, this isn't about slowing down, you know, we keep fighting and growing and developing and evolving and learning what happened there. Why didn't that work? But let's really talk about it because it hasn't worked. We've had women governors. We just haven't been able to crack that ceiling with really great candidates. So let's figure out what what's what's going

• 1:47:18Speaker 03

  on. And in the meantime, what I'm telling all young girls is keep going, y'all. Go to college, get your education, continue to build those skills, continue to be good, be kind to yourself. Go into politics. I am not a politician. That was also the other point, you know? It's just a reminder. It's like, I am not a politician, not interested in it, you know? Um, just, it's not who I want to be, but I do want a lot of young people, a lot of young girl. I want those who want to do it. We need you. We need you to want to, to be a, so don't take

• 1:47:58Speaker 03

  that message as you can't. You should keep trying, keep, keep, keep throwing the opportunity in this country's face, you know, and, but just be strong in it and know that you may come up short because maybe we are, maybe we aren't, but keep going.

• 1:48:17Alex Cooper?

  Well, it's like our whole conversation today. I think there, again, there's so much to do for women to get to that place where we are ready. Um, okay. This is, I mean, let me know if you'll answer this one.

• 1:48:31Alex Cooper?

  I'm just gonna try. Okay. Let's have a little fun.

• 1:48:33Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:48:34Alex Cooper?

  We're, I'm, I'm talking about the future here. So the future is whatever we want it to be. Okay. So if, this is all hypothetical.

• 1:48:44Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:44Alex Cooper?

  If Trump does change the law and runs for a third term, hypothetically, do you think your husband would consider running?

• 1:48:56Speaker 03

  I hope not.

• 1:48:59Speaker 03

  I would actively work against that, you know?

• 1:49:04Alex Cooper?

  The whole world starts crying.

• 1:49:06Speaker 03

  I, I would, I wouldn't be, I would be at home working against it, you know? And maybe a lot of people will be like, good, we don't want him anyway. And I'm like, yeah, that's what I, right.

• 1:49:16Alex Cooper?

  Okay. So you're like, not interested?

• 1:49:19Speaker 03

  You know, I, I do believe in the need for new vision, right? I mean, the, the two terms is not just about, we like him and we want to, it's just like the, we're changing and growing so fast. This is a hard job.

• 1:49:36Speaker 03

  And it it requires new energy, new, new vision all the time, new ways of looking at the world, right? So I do believe that eight years is enough. Like, you know, so, and there's so many talented people out there. Like, why, why won't we keep going with the same people? You know, um, I, I would be a proponent for how, and how are we gonna build young leaders if the same people keep doing it again and again and again? You know, now's your turn, now's my turn. Now you did it again, I'll do it again. And it's like, and there's all these young, smart people who are just looking outside with their ideas as leaders get older and older. You know, the older you get, the just, you,

• 1:50:20Speaker 03

  you, you just live a different life as an older, established person. And I think there's room for that wisdom, but there's room for new ideas to come in. You know, so I am, I think two terms is enough for everybody, you know, and it's not a question of what order. It's just like, we've heard and experienced your ideas. This country is constantly evolving. What are the next thoughts? People with a new set of experiences, a new set of, a new take on the world. This new generation is coming up. They travel more, they know more about the world. They're exposed in a different way. Like, I, I am really, really

• 1:51:03Speaker 03

  curious about their perspectives on how to fix some of this stuff. Like, we don't have all the answers, and that's okay. That's why we move on.

• 1:51:14Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, it's a great point. It's a really great point. To close this out.

• 1:51:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:19Alex Cooper?

  Two more questions.

• 1:51:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:21Alex Cooper?

  I want to end on a message of hope, because this is, it's heavy stuff, but it's like, in order to change, in order to grow, we have to have hope. We have to believe that there is room to move forward. So first, what advice do you have to women listening who feel scared and angry about the current state of things and where we are headed as a country?

• 1:51:47Speaker 03

  Oh, it goes back to something that I have said throughout this conversation that we have to be mindful of the context of where we are. And even this time feels difficult. I would argue because we've had a lot of unfettered growth. Right? This has been a unique time of just no war. There's been no Great Depression. I mean, if you look at the history of the country, that's this little period.

• 1:52:28Speaker 03

  Why it's been, you know, not free of a lot of problems. Right? But it's it's been a real. It's been a continued shot upward. And now we're kind of leveling off a little bit, maybe a dip here or there. And that feels scary. But as Barack said, the the arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice. It means that you don't get to the place in a straight, direct route. That there are bends and curves along the way. And we may be in a time where we're experiencing a bit of a bend, a bit of a dip. But we're still moving forward. And that is true. That's not like, that's factual. Right?

• 1:53:13Speaker 03

  As Barack says all the time, if you could pick any time in human history to be alive, when you think of disease and poverty and science

• 1:53:27Speaker 03

  and equality and openness and access, would you pick any other time to be alive? Then right now? I know I wouldn't, knowing what I, you know, we can fantasize about Hogwarts and, you know, I don't even know what what time that took place because that's not a real. I do fantasize about it, but you know. Right? But there is a lot of stuff that was broken that we didn't have, that we didn't learn. And we've learned it now. And and we're struggling to get to that next phase. But that struggle doesn't mean that we we're not making progress. The other thing that I will say is like I my experiences.

• 1:54:10Speaker 03

  Throughout my life, particularly as First Lady, I have seen this country up close. I really, I've been to many towns and communities, mourned losses, been on military bases, you know, been in homeless shelters, have seen great joys and great pains. But rarely am I disappointed as a whole with who we are as a people. Like, that is my experience. Because I've gotten to be out there in a way that most people, let alone most Americans, don't. We live in our little corners of the world. We live on our blocks, in our neighborhoods. That's how we are. We're humans.

• 1:54:55Speaker 03

  We are packed, you know? We live in our small tribes. That's how we are, and we don't know about other tribes, right? We, we know what we know. I've had the chance to experience other tribes. And I don't care what your political affiliation, what religion, we're all really, we really are wanting and moving towards the same thing. You know, we want to, we want to live in communities where we get along. You know, we want our kids to be safe and have a good education. We want them to maybe be a little bit better off than we have, we were. But people aren't fundamentally greedy, you know? My father was a working-class guy. He never wanted to be a millionaire.

• 1:55:39Speaker 03

  He never wanted to be a tech giant or an influencer. You know what my dad was, which was like most men, black, white, blue, green? He wanted to be able to pay his bills and feed his kids and take care of his family and maybe have healthcare, you know? He's like, he wasn't competing to be the richest of the rich. In fact, he was like, you can have that. That seems complicated, right? I'm good. To me, that's most Americans. And we, we can get there. Because people, most people don't want that much, but we do have to support each other. You know, we do have to protect one another. And we have to, you know,

• 1:56:21Speaker 03

  have policies and principles that protect the greater good. And I think with the right leadership, we're right, we're right there, you know? When it, when it doesn't feel fair, people aren't happy. You know, they don't, they're, they're not. They don't feel comfortable watching other people's pain. I know that about this country. It's just a question of how do we get, get out of this? And it's complicated and we like answers that are quick and easy, but most of this stuff is really, really hard and it takes some time. I don't know if that's hopeful, but to me, it is, it is, it is all possibility.

• 1:57:01Alex Cooper?

  It is hopeful. I think it's, it's what we needed to hear because I agree with the immediacy. Everyone now is looking for such, the answer immediately or else they're just like, so we're doomed. It's over. And I, yeah. And I think my last question, when I was thinking about that is yes, at first I was kind of talking about women, but like it, our world does feel, or our country does feel very divided today. That, that's a fact, right? It, some people, we can't even look at each other anymore. And the hate and disgust and vitriol, it's so bitter. Like it, it's, the divide is so big, it almost feels unfixable. And sometimes I think it feels

• 1:57:46Alex Cooper?

  like we've turned away from seeing people's humanity, that it almost feels like to the point that we've off, like almost lost our own humanity because we can't relate, we can't see, even if we are divided on what side we're on. And so to leave us with this, I guess, and I know it's, you'd be like, well, do you have 10 hours? But in, in the opposite of what you said, where I'm like, can you give us a quick answer, Michelle? Um, can you though, somehow explain in your opinion, how you think we begin to repair not only what we have

• 1:58:22Alex Cooper?

  lost, but create a new future that is actually inclusive, equal and respectful of each other? Because right now it does not feel like we are close to that.

• 1:58:36Speaker 03

  And don't you get a sense that people are not content in that? Right? So let's, you know, I think more people are starting to be outspoken about it and realizing, is this what we? You know, and a lot of people are like, I didn't sign up for this. That is us speaking. That is us. You know, that's our real hearts kinda coming to the fold. I'd like to think, you know, it, you know, didn't have them right away. But it, it's not like it's been a long, long time. We don't, we're not like, I just, if everybody looks inside, this isn't what we wanted. We want parts of it. There's some things we want. That mix didn't work, but this, I don't think we're,

• 1:59:21Speaker 03

  we're happy in this state. And I think that's a good sign. You know, I mean, if, if everybody were like, yeah, I'm good. Yeah, I feel great. Merry Christmas. Right? I mean, maybe I'd be like, okay, right? But, you know, I, I'm assuming in your conversations, people are starting to really, we're figuring out what is it that we do want? You know, we were defining a lot. I don't want that. And I don't want that. But the work is, well, what do we want? And I do think, I don't think that this young generation wants to go back, have less freedoms, less possibilities of who they can be in the world, who they can marry, who they can love,

• 2:00:05Speaker 03

  who's in and who's out. I, you know, I, I just think we've come too far to go that far back. That's what, that's, that's what I, I have faith and I'm choosing to have faith. You know, um, and so that, those are choices. And now for all our listeners, it's like, now we've got to do the work to look inside and figure out the parts of this that are working and what is it? We have to really start having conversations about that. That, that, that's hard to do at a time when, you know, our, our algorithms are feeding us what we want to hear. But now we know that.

• 2:00:48Speaker 03

  Now we're aware. It's like, okay, you can't just get your information from your phone or your TikTok because it's feeding you yourself. And so if you want to learn something else, you may have to talk to people. We may have to start coming out of our phones and back into communities. And we have to give each other the, the benefit of the doubt. Takes a little time because we've been so mad. But it hasn't been that long. It hasn't, it hasn't been that long. So we, we can remember what it felt like when we felt more connected.

• 2:01:20Alex Cooper?

  It's such a great point, and I think,

• 2:01:24Alex Cooper?

  I think that's why I just was so excited to talk to you today because I feel like,

• 2:01:30Alex Cooper?

  especially understandably, young people, I think, have just like an aversion to politics right now. It's just like, oh, my God, it's all this like marketing and propaganda and like, oh. And then again, with social media, we've lost the way we're, we don't really know who to follow right now. We don't know who to listen to right now. And so that goes back to the beginning of this interview to close it out. It's like, I knew that we could have fun. I know you're funny and I know we would have a good time, Michelle. Okay, trust me, it's like round two, you'll come back again one day. But it's like, we could have fun, but we needed you. I needed to hear from you and we needed to absorb this right now because I just felt it. And I try to have such a pulse with my audience on what they're needing.

• 2:02:11Alex Cooper?

  And I felt this, it's like going into this new year, we need this fresh perspective. And so I genuinely cannot thank you enough for gracing me with your time. I know you are beyond busy, but this was like.

• 2:02:26Speaker 03

  Let me say, Alex, that part of the solution are folks like you, young, you're still, to me, you're young, you're a baby. And I, it's like proud baby, way to go.

• 2:02:39Speaker 03

  But you, you, you've evolved. And you're building, you understand the power that you have to have different conversations. And, you know, you've got this amazing audience, they love you, they're, you know, they're intrigued by you. And there's a reason for that. So that's power. And now you're in the, you're in the, you're in the power seat. So what do you do with that, you know? How do you, how do you, you know, take what you've learned or you're learning and you know, about the folks who follow you and help them see more and see things differently? And you're doing just that. People are listening, right?

• 2:03:19Speaker 03

  You know, they may come in for the burger, but they leave with, they leave with carrots. Carrot of wisdom. Um, and that's because you're choosing, you know, to really think about your platform and modeling something new. And that's what it's all about. Look, I love talking to people, but I, I'm, I also don't want to be talking to people forever. It's like your generation, it's time for you all to sit in these seats and get right what we didn't get right. And it's okay for us to admit that our generation,

• 2:04:01Speaker 03

  we figured a lot of stuff out, but we didn't fix it. And that's not what the, it's a, it's a marathon. It's a relay race. I'm passing the baton to you, my friend. Um, and you can do it.

• 2:04:16Alex Cooper?

  Maybe a couple more side conversations, just to like, give me a little bit more wisdom.

• 2:04:19Speaker 03

  Okay, we'll keep talking.

• 2:04:21Alex Cooper?

  We'll stay in touch. We'll stay in touch.

• 2:04:23Speaker 03

  But I am, I am proud of what, what you, you're building and how you're using your, your space. And that's, that's going to make a difference. So keep doing what you're doing. This has been so much fun. And I'll talk to Barack and make sure that, you know, make, next time I come in, you know,

• 2:04:45Alex Cooper?

  You tell him what the option two, one was.

• 2:04:47Speaker 03

  Talk about option one.

• 2:04:48Alex Cooper?

  Barack, option one. The headlines from this cannot be as crazy as what option one would be. So anything you're stressed about PR wise, babe, don't worry.

• 2:04:58Speaker 03

  It'll be fine. We're right there.

• 2:05:02Alex Cooper?

  Michelle Obama. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It was an honor having you on Call of Duty.

• 2:05:07Speaker 03

  It's great spending time with you. Thank you for having me and more to come.

• 2:05:12Alex Cooper?

  More to come.

• 2:05:13Speaker 03

  More to come.

• 2:05:29Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by T-Mobile. Daddy gang, there are honestly so many reasons to just choose T-Mobile. They've got T-Mobile Tuesdays perks, tons of freebies, travel benefits like hotel and rental car savings. They make your phone plan feel like it's actually giving you something back instead of just being another bill that you have to pay every single month. And if you're a student, T-Mobile has student perks plans designed specifically for you. I remember being in college and constantly literally just looking for ways to save money, understandably. And so these are the kind of perks I would have absolutely taken advantage of. Students can get things like a $5 movie ticket every month,

• 2:06:12Alex Cooper?

  exclusive access to concerts, okay? And even streaming benefits, so you can always have a reality TV binge night with your girls. And when you're already paying for your phone every month, getting all of these extra benefits on top of it, just, it makes sense, right? For all the reasons to choose T-Mobile, find yours at tmobile.com/membership. Qualifying plan required. Visit tmobile.com. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Klavio. So Klavio says it's your brand's best friend. Bold claim, but here's the thing. Klavio knows your brand, your tone, your customers, all your data in one place. Klavio's AI agents answer them 24/7 in your voice

• 2:06:56Alex Cooper?

  and build your campaigns from one prompt, emails, texts, and WhatsApp. Plus Klavio finds your next sale before you do. It's time to meet your new CRM BFF. Go to K-L-A-V-I-Y-O.com/bestfriends. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Pandora Jewelry. Make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. I feel like the best gifts are always the ones that feel really personal, right? Like, anyone can buy you something nice, but when someone gives you a gift that is actually meaningful, you appreciate it so much more. And that's what I do love about Pandora.

• 2:07:39Alex Cooper?

  They have so many pieces that you can really just make your own, from festive charms to personalized engravings and jewelry that can represent the people and the moments that mean the most to you. So whether you're shopping for your partner, or your mom, your best friend, you can find something that really is specific to them. Maybe it's a charm that makes you think of the trip that you guys took together once, or maybe it's an engraving for your anniversary, or just a piece that feels like them the second you see it. Pandora makes it so easy to give a gift that feels thoughtful and personal, and makes every holiday moment even more meaningful and special. Because at the end of the day, the best gifts aren't just about the piece itself, but it's the intention and the story behind them.

• 2:08:23Alex Cooper?

  Say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop now at pandora.net or visit your closest Pandora store.