Dr Alex George: My Hardest Day In A&E, Family Suicide & Finding TRUE Purpose

Alex George is a pure inspiration. That's one of the best ways I can describe him. He’s selfless, self aware and just an all round great guy. He grew up in Nantgaredig, a village near Carmarthen, Wales. He is the oldest of three children. George studied Medicine at the University of Exeter and went on to work in Emergency Medicine at University Hospital Lewisham in London. In 2018, George appeared in the fourth series of the ITV2 reality dating series Love Island. Following the show, he returned to working part-time at Lewisham whilst also making regular media appearances speaking about mental health on ITV morning shows including Good Morning Britain, Lorraine and Loose Women. In 2019, George launched his podcast The Waiting Room with Dr Alex in which he interviews other healthcare professionals about topical health and wellbeing issues. In July 2020, George's youngest brother Llyr died by suicide. In January 2021, George launched a campaign requesting the UK Government prioritise mental health amongst children and adolescents. During Children's Mental Health Week in February 2021, George met with Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who appointed George to the newly created position of Youth Mental Health Ambassador. In addition, George also became a member of the Mental Health in Education Action Group. This conversation has it all, its gripping, its open, it’s honest and it had me nearly in tears almost 3 or 4 times. I can’t express to you how selfless and down to earth this guy is but you’ll find that out from our conversation today. Follow Alex: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/dralexgeorge Twitter - https://twitter.com/dralexgeorge Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I've gone from 200 followers on Instagram to 1 million in nine weeks. I just had tasted the failure so much that I wanted that success. One of the biggest things was going back to work. You know, I went back to A and E. I am working in a position where I'm the research department of a very busy hospital in A and E in London. The mortality rate with COVID is around 1%. I am seeing that percentage of people who are the sickest who are in the hospital. I could hear in his voice instantly that something really bad had happened. I just said straight away, like, who's died? It was weird. The whole world like closed in and I can't explain it. It sounds very dramatic, but it was like almost a spotlight came on to me in that moment. And I was like, no, it can't be. I just couldn't believe it. That's the thing about suicide or, you know, when these things happen, it can happen all out of nowhere.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  And for everyone around that person is that guilt that you carry, I think, forever. Ask yourself honestly, when is the last time you genuinely sat down? I thought about what you want to do in life? What actually is your purpose? What makes you happy? And if you haven't done it in the last year or so, do it. We had a phone call again and she said, it's back. I'm like, what do you mean? It's cancer's back. What do you say to someone who is dying in the next couple of weeks? What can you say? A lot of it's non-verbal. You have a hug and you just share that moment, don't you? But when you walk out of that room, it's like, wow, like I'm not seeing her again.

• 1:28Steven Bartlett?

  Dr Alex George, you may know him from Love Island. You may know him as one of the most well-known A and E doctors in our country. Or you may know him as a government advisor to youth mental health, appointed by Boris Johnson last year. Alex knows a whole lot about happiness, about the things that make us unhappy and about how we should be living if you want to live a truly fulfilling life. In this conversation, you'll come to realize that we are so far away from how we should be living and that in order to get there, we might have to redesign the entirety of the society we live in. That's a belief that I have. This conversation energized me. It inspired me. It brought tears to my eyes. It gave me absolutely everything.

• 2:12Steven Bartlett?

  And again, if there's a reason why I started this podcast, it's this conversation. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 2:33Steven Bartlett?

  Alex, I read a ton about you over the last couple of weeks, months, since you've sort of risen into the the public eye. And one of the things that I really wanted to understand before, and I tend to start here with most of my guests, is I want to understand what it was from your childhood that made you the man you are today, and what those significant moments were, in your view.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Wow, that's a that's a deep question to dug straight into. Let's let's get in there. Well, I mean, I was brought up and born and brought up in West Wales. I lived on a little small holding. My parents, not farmers, actually, often people assume they'd be a farming background. My dad, a policeman, my mum worked in a bank. And I had quite a, I think, a quiet upbringing, you know, in the countryside, two brothers, two younger brothers. School life for me, I think, was up and down. You know, I was bullied quite a lot at school, a little bit in primary school, more so in secondary school. And I think as I grew up, I was naturally, I think it probably innately is probably as well

• 3:37Speaker 00

  as my environment that I was in, I was introverted or became an introvert. And there's a lot of conversation about, are you born that way? Is it molded that way? I think probably a bit of both for me. And I think, you know, when I was at school and as I was growing up, I think my my parents were a big influence on my life. I think they instilled a lot of the values that I have. My mum was a big believer in that you should, you know, go out there and try and add value to people around you in the world. And the focus is around what you achieve in terms of that, rather than necessarily being trying to like be really successful, make loads of money or whatever. And I think that instilled in me that sense of, I want to do good, or try, you know, I'm not sitting here thinking,

• 4:19Speaker 00

  you know, I have the same, I love cars, I love doing things as well. I'm not saying I'm, you know, trying to be some kind of save the world person. But I had that kind of general thing that I'd like to go out there and do something good if I could. And I think when I was about 13, 14, I had a bit of an interest in science. I liked, you know, I liked the idea of working in a in a career or going to a career that had, you know, a sense of teamwork, a purpose, which might sound a bit odd as an introvert, but you know, I still wanted to be a part of a movement, if you like. And that's where medicine kind of appealed to me. So I started kind of watching early shows of like this equivalent to 24 hours in A and E back in the day and really, really kind of thought, oh, it'd be amazing to be an A and E doctor.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  The excitement, the adrenaline, that'd be so awesome. I love that idea of, you know, using science and medicine to save people. And I just started working towards that goal, really. And I'd say that, again, school wasn't that easy for me for various reasons. I know now that I'm dyslexic. I didn't know that then. I didn't know it at school, didn't know at university. I really struggled with my written work and stuff. And I was very frustrated, actually, at school a lot of the time. I also had a very short attention span. When I was in primary school, I was put into a special needs class for a long time because, well, I don't know, I think I, I had a short attention span. Maybe they were concerned about me. I

• 5:44Speaker 00

  don't really know why that was a concern. My mum actually went into school and said, actually, Alex is quite bright, you know, I think he'd be fine. Went back into the normal classroom and we kind of continued from, from there. In secondary school, again, struggled a bit with the written work. And actually, when I, when I applied to med school, the first time around, I did all the interviews, got my place. I actually missed out on my grades, a grade A in my chemistry by two marks, which cost my place at med school, which is actually one of the most painful moments of my life. I think really, really a defining moment. Because at the school I was in, I wasn't in a great, I don't want to say horrible school. It was a perfectly fine school, but I wouldn't say it was like a really, really high achieving

• 6:26Speaker 00

  school. It was a state school. No one I think had done medicine for a couple of years, a good few years, potentially. Everyone was excited about this idea of a student going. And there was this kind of everyone waiting for me to kind of open the results. And I was like, yeah, I've got two As and a B, three As and a B. Brilliant, I'm really glad about that. But sadly, my two marks means that I can't go to med school. And I think that was a really defining moment for me. I was kind of my first feeling of failure in a way. And I think all of that, all of that has come together, kind of moulded by attitude, I think, to life and to kind of working hard, to wanting to achieve, to kind of appreciating success when you have it.

• 7:01Steven Bartlett?

  You said you were bullied in school. What for?

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Uh, I grew very tall, very quickly. I was very skinny. Um, I always had quite a bit of acne and stuff when I was younger.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  And I think, but mainly, actually, the main reason I think I was bullied was because I was sensitive. I am sensitive as a person. Um, and I think things would get to me probably more so than I noticed my friends or other people around me. And I think that sadly sensitivity attracts some, you know, bullies at times, you know, when at the moment doing a massive campaign with the number ten and Zanna Award around bullying and tackling that. And a lot of the young people I speak to have experienced the same, you know, sensitivity sadly attracts that. But it's odd because now I look back and think, you know, the time I thought that was a real weakness, but now I see it as a real strength. And I think my sensitivity has allowed me to be a better doctor. I think my my ability to have empathy on my patients, I read people very well. I understand when I'm in a team.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  Even now, whether it's not in the hospital or the team that I'm working with all kind of from a management perspective, or whether it's people working, you know, working with people at number ten, I read people very well. I understand people and that allows me to get better people. But back then it was a real target for bullies, I think.

• 8:16Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. And obviously, as you, you know, you've spoken about length, that sensitivity, I guess, is incredibly conducive with having positive mental health.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I, I think so. I think it's, it's about, you know, when you're talking about um being an introvert and things, being, being sensitive, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive or necessarily come together, but I, I, I do think that it's about learning to, learning what you have and how to use that to your, use your strengths, you know, turn them into your strengths. I saw that as a big weakness, weakness, whereas now I see it as a great strength. And I think sometimes as you're growing up, you're unaware of what's good or bad about you physically or, you know, in terms of your personality types. And sometimes the things that you kind of very harden yourself about when you're younger, like being sensitive, I'm now quite glad of. Even though now, of course, it still leaves me open. I mean, you know how it is being, you know, um

• 9:06Speaker 00

  known in the public eye, whatever, I hate that phrase, but you, you, I think it's an understood one. Um, it obviously opens you up because you're open to criticism a lot. And especially now with the work I'm doing in the mental health space, it's, it's tough. And there's a lot of people in the political space, people watching what's happening who. Will criticize you, you know, and that is not easy, but you learn to deal with it. And you you build a bit of a thicker skin as well, I think.

• 9:33Steven Bartlett?

  Have you learned to deal with it? Because as you say, one point something million followers on Instagram, one point nine million followers on Instagram, whatever it is. Um, that's a lot of people. Probabilistically, there's going to be a bunch of them in there that, you know, they just wanna ruin your day.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  You know, it's funny because of all the things I've had, I've had the the full works of death threats and all this kind of stuff, particularly, you know, anti vax and and things like that. We've been recent months and stuff. That doesn't bother me at all, funny enough. I don't mind that. People can call me ugly, like say, look a certain way, or, you know, they can call me what they want. Um, in that sense, and it doesn't bother me too much, to be honest. I've really been able to kind of, even though that was the kind of stuff that bothered me when I was younger, I'm very resilient to that now. What I think I'm more sensitive to now is when people kind of criticize the things that I'm working on that really matters to me, particularly the stuff around the mental health space. You know, when I've been actually working in this space for for a good few years before I even moved to before two thousand and eighteen, when I was on Love Island.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  And even before all that, I was really, you know, actively working with the the charities. I was also, um, you know, passionate advocate in my space in A and E. We see a huge amount of mental health. I've been one of the big misconceptions about A and E is we just see, you know, injuries, cuts and bruises and heart attacks and things. At least thirty percent of our workload relates to mental health. And I think it's probably higher than that in reality. Um, and and I've really worked in that space, but obviously, you know, since I was appointed the mental health ambassador, since sadly my brother passed away last year, which kind of led to me focusing even more, and I guess the attention on it, which led to the appointment. It's tough sometimes when people go, well, oh, you, you know, you got eighty million for mental health support teams at school. Why didn't you get two hundred? You know, you've let us down.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  You didn't get two hundred million. It's very hard, you know, and it's when you especially when I go, I'm very naturally very optimistic and positive person. You know, when I came to the role, I was in the role and I was in it for about two or three weeks and I got eighty million quid. That's a lot of money, you know, at a time in a pandemic where the government's pretty strapped, we spent a load of money. I'm not just saying it's just me, we worked as there's other people within the with a group and the number ten and outside that worked on this. But I would, I think it's fair to say I was a big steer on that happening. And then someone goes, oh, you didn't get enough. You've let us down. What you've done is terrible. You know, you shouldn't be there. Why are you in this role? Not easy, but I always go back to, and I think at the time when it came out, there's a huge, and I should say this, I've ninety five percent amount of support has been unbelievable. It's always the five percent or one percent or whatever that they get to you a little bit.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  But, you know, now I've gone back to the idea of, well, actually, what are my values? What matters to me? And I go, well, actually, I believe that I am making, you know, at least if even if it's a millimeter difference, I'm doing something, I'm doing something positive and that keeps me going. And that's what stops me becoming down, I guess, from, from the kind of hate, if you like.

• 12:17Steven Bartlett?

  Are you, are you a confident person?

• 12:19Speaker 00

  No, I don't think so. Um, I am confident. Um, ah, that's a good question. No, I'm not. I don't think so. Not inherently confident. I think I was, if you put me in a, in a, in a party, if we were at a swanky party in New York that you might attend for the pandemic, um, I'd probably be the guy in the corner quietly chatting to one or two people, you know, and just, I wouldn't, I would certainly avoid centre of attention, classic kind of introvert in that sense. But I, even though I'm not confident, I do think I'm very resilient and I think I'm very determined. And I think that helps me a lot. Where confidence lacks sometimes, my determination, I think, pushes through.

• 12:59Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, it kind of begs the question, and I'm sure, you know, you're probably sick of people inquiring about this apparent contradiction, which is not a confident person in your own definition of confidence. Um, and yet when that Love Island researcher comes knocking on your Instagram, when you have two hundred followers and says, do you want to be on one of the biggest shows in the world? Topless.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:26Steven Bartlett?

  Like one of the biggest shows in the country, topless. You were like, sure.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, this, the reason that happened was, look, when I was at university, I, I, and I loved my time at university as mostly, and we'll come and talk about a little bit about a time that wasn't so good, maybe in a little bit, but on the whole, pretty, pretty good time. Um, but in my second year at uni, one of my very, very good friends, Freya Barlow, who was, and it's, it's annoying because sometimes you hear, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful, you hear people talking about someone that's passed and everyone goes, they're amazing. They do this and they did this and that. But honestly, like Freya was the most amazing person. She started like two charities in by a second year in med school. She spent her summers vaccinating kids and and abroad and go to Africa and just doing like a really amazing work. And very sadly, you know, well, I actually remember one week

• 14:15Speaker 00

  it was towards the winter time. I'm trying to remember towards the winter time. I said, Freya, you've got some bruises on your arm. I mean, you're right. I said, oh, yeah, a bit. I've got a few bruises. I'm actually going to see a doctor. I think it was the next day or the day after. Anyway, a couple of days later, we had a text in the group saying, we need to go for dinner tonight. I need to talk to you guys. So this is hard. So we went to went to dinner and she sat us down and said, look, you know, these bruises that I've had, I went to the doctor, had blood tests taken, next day rushed into hospital. I've got leukemia, you know, and she had acute myeloid leukemia, which is a very, very serious, serious form of leukemia. And to put into context, it differs between people, but it can be a matter of short weeks from being diagnosed to passing away if you don't have treatment really

• 14:58Speaker 00

  quickly. So it's one of the most aggressive and nasty cancers that you can have. And so it's a huge shock to all of us. And she quite literally went to dinner and the next morning, straight into isolation in the hospital to have nuclear chemotherapy, basically, really, really strong chemotherapy. She was in there for a huge length of time, many, many months. And, you know, it was really hard to watch her, you know, hair falling out, you know, losing weight, you know, swelling in her arms and feet and things like that from the chemo. And she was always so positive throughout the whole thing. Her positivity was unbelievable and how relentless she was. And even to the point where she's actually, you know, the university said, look, take time out, clearly, you know, we want you to recover and have time out. She said, no, I want to do my tests. I want to do my exams.

• 15:41Speaker 00

  She sat her exams in isolation, in an isolation cubicle in the hospital, which is just unbelievable and shows her resilience. Anyway, after a long period of time, I think it was six months or more, and she actually had a bone marrow transplant from, I think it was someone in Germany that gave her the bone marrow. And she came out of the hospital and we were like, yes, you know, she's getting through this. And she even ran a marathon, something silly, like a month or so, a couple of months after. Afterwards to raise money for leukemia research, you know, straight, we're like, just chill out a bit. No, she's like, no, I'm straight back to charity work. Fine. So then running into the next winter.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  Um, we had a phone call again and she said, it's back. I'm like, what do you mean? It's cancer's back. And she was told she had a matter of weeks to live because she'd had the bone marrow transplant. It was now to the point where there was basically nothing to do. So we threw a big ball and a party to kind of, kind of celebrate her life to that point. Um, and we all kind of said our goodbyes. We went, I went to her house actually to say goodbye to her. Um, and one of the things she said to me before she passed, well, she passed away like a week or so later. It wasn't very long. Uh, she said, Alex, you're an introvert. You're sometimes, you're, I think you've got a lot of talent in terms of what you do. And I'm very proud of the things you do. And I think you, you're, you know, you've got a lot of potential in your life.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  But you sometimes shy away and I want you to go out there and say yes to things. Put yourself in com- in, out of your comfort zone. Something is fair to say often in life, I just keep myself in that competition. Put yourself out of that comfort zone, you know, say yes to things, live your life. You know, I'm in a position now where I, I have to stop my life here. I want you to live yours. And that I think is a very long-winded explanation, but that is why I went on that show. Cause I actually was very resistant to it the whole time. And even to now, the, the execs will say, I'm the one person that didn't want to go on the show, you know, but I was like, I almost felt like I don't know what I believe and what you don't believe. But I was like, I was like, what would Freya say? She said, get on that show and do it. And that's why I did it.

• 17:38Steven Bartlett?

  I can't imagine what it's like having to go and say goodbye to a friend like that.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  And, and, you know, it's so difficult. And, and at that, at that age, you know, only twenty two or twenty three or something, whatever I was, it's, it's very odd. It's very odd to have a conversation with someone. And like, we've, we've experienced, everyone's experienced grief at some point. And, but this was the only, and still is the only time I've been sat with someone, knowing it was the last conversation. It's a very odd situation because what do you say to someone who is dying in the next couple of weeks and they're so young and you had all this hope about them getting better. Um, but, and I remember it's almost like a go back to that moment. So intensely because in that moment I was like, this is the last chance I'm going to speak to this person. I need to capture every second of this. So it's almost like hardwired into my brain.

• 18:28Speaker 00

  But I really appreciated what she said and I to this day, even now, you know, I was on Sky News this morning and stuff, which is again, miles out my comfort zone, never, you know, I'm becoming more used to these things now, but miles out my comfort zone. None of that stuff would happen if it wasn't for what she said to me, I don't think. I've just continued staying within that comfort zone, not pushing myself and protecting myself in a way, I guess.

• 18:52Steven Bartlett?

  What did you say to her on that day?

• 18:55Speaker 00

  I told her I loved her and that I was so glad that I knew her and how grateful I was really that that she was my friend. And, you know, what I didn't tell her, which I said to other people was how cruel the world can be sometimes. You know, you've got someone who is going to be a doctor and we want an amazing doctor as well. You know, not just a doctor, but an amazing one and such a kind, genuine person. Like, how cruel can it be to happen to that person? But obviously in that moment, you don't want to say that, you know, she.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  She, you just want to instill that feeling of love and appreciation for them. But it was hard. What can you say? A lot of it's nonverbal. You have a hug and you just. Share that moment, don't you? But when you walk out of that room, it's like, wow, like I'm not seeing her again. Very odd.

• 19:42Steven Bartlett?

  Very difficult.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  Very, very difficult. But, you know, I'm very grateful and I know I've taken us straight into a darker place there, but in a real positive, you know, I feel that the people around us could just do. Have, can have such an impact on our lives and like so much light has come from her life because of that. I continue to talk about as much as possible. We are, you know, and, and we all celebrate her and, and her life. And I hope that I have taken a bit of it with me to do some of the things I'm doing now and I hope that she'd be proud of some of it.

• 20:11Steven Bartlett?

  And you were you were working in sort of emergency medicine before the Love Island experience began. So begs the question, how did you get into that if you weren't able to go to medical school?

• 20:20Speaker 00

  Well, so so basically I applied the time if we go back to when I missed my grades. And this is where I think I learned about failure, which I think is very important. I'm talking about success, but failure is incredibly important. I failed by two marks, obviously absolutely gutted, didn't have my grades. What made it worse is me and my friend were going to Liverpool together. He was going to do go to dental school, I was in med school, best buddies all the way through, like can't wait. And obviously like, oh mate, sorry, you got yourself, yeah, gutted. So I had to apply again. I did. Well, I had actually, I remember I sat down with my mum and she was very upset, as you can imagine. And I said, look, mum, it's fine. And I apply again. I get the grades, I do the interviews, do the tests you've got to do with the application. It's fine, I'll get in. And I believed that I would. I was like, I'm not going to give up. I corrected a few sentences on my course

• 21:05Speaker 00

  that I needed to correct to get the marks back up. I reapplied again, did the interviews, I got my place and

• 21:11Steven Bartlett?

  Does that sound like a guy that lacks confidence?

• 21:14Speaker 00

  Ah, I don't know. I think I think I think that resilience and confidence are probably separate things. I think I that was one of the first times I really faced properly in my life where I'd really failed. And I had to kind of ask myself a question, do I give up? And I was like, I am not giving up, I'm going. And I think it was like, but I think that did give me confidence. I think if we're talking about that, it's like that resilience of going, I was like, wow, when I got the place again, I went to med school, I did feel more confident about that. I might not be confident to walk topless in front of people like when my knees were shaking and walking out on Love Island. But I was more confident myself that I was resilient. And when I went to med school, the great thing was, and I think this is why failure is so important, A, I knew how painful it is to

• 21:57Speaker 00

  mess nearly miss out on something that means a lot to you. Secondly, I really appreciate it when I've actually succeeded. So when I was at med school, I just appreciated so much. I loved every moment of it, you know, I worked hard, you know, and I even though I nearly missed out on going, I came out with a distinction, a top kind of two or three in the year, you know, a few people each year get distinctions. So I ended up in doing well, but I don't think that's because I'm particularly better than anyone at exams or whatever. I just had tasted the failure so much that I wanted that success. And I think that has been a really good life lesson. You know, I still fail today. We all fail, right, all the time. But I know that I can pick myself up and I will always get there.

• 22:35Steven Bartlett?

  Do you want to come in and watch this podcast live from behind the scenes? If you do, all you have to do is hit the subscribe button. And now that the world has opened up, you'll be behind the scenes as many of our subscribers have been. I can't wait to meet you. That's part of what inspires you to try things outside of your, this sort of circumference of your comfort zone is knowing that even if, you know, the worst possible outcome occurs, you, you've been here before, you survived this storm and, and it worked out in the end. And I think even for me now in my life, when, you know, because we're all, our comfort zones are all subjective to our experiences in life. So I have a comfort zone too. People, people think I've achieved a lot in like my business career, whatever, I still have a comfort zone. There's still this thing in my head that says, Steve, this is what you're capable of.

• 23:19Steven Bartlett?

  Right. And so even when I step outside of mine, the thing that I'm always relying on in the hardest moments of my life is that hindsight of, you know, we've, we've been here before, we've got through this. Yeah. And it, and it, and you've got to have faith, even if it doesn't feel like it, even if your emotions are telling you otherwise, but have faith and trust yourself.

• 23:35Speaker 00

  Well, you learn every time you extend that boundary of a comfort zone and you've got a step further. I mean, what, what are the, what are you doing at the moments outside of your kind of comfort zone? What are you, what are you doing that's kind of pushing you? Because we're all, I think it's important to share because people will look at you and think, oh, these guys so successful and everything. But we all are pushing that boundary, right?

• 23:52Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. So a couple of things. The first thing is obviously Dragon's Den, which I've, you know, I've done podcasting before, but I control this. And there's, you know, there's not four point something million people watching. I mean, we've got close to your time, but I control this. So, and I know how this works. This is my domain. Dragon's Den, when you're sat with five panelists, the one on your left's been there 20 years, the one on your right's been there 15. And there's massive cameras swinging, there's this lift door swings open and all of this. And then you're, you know, all of the, all of the dynamics to consider, trying to learn, trying to, trying to learn how to play my role in this show, while also trying to analyze the business and decide whether I want to give my money to this business within a short period of time. It's a lot. That's outside my comfort zone.

• 24:36Steven Bartlett?

  DJing, as you can see over there, I'm learning to DJ and I'm going to do a show this year. Outside my comfort zone.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  We're doing it. I'll, I'll come through. I love that. I'll stand in the corner, the back corner out of the way so no one notices me, but I'll appreciate it.

• 24:52Steven Bartlett?

  Um. This show we're doing, and I think it's twelve, twelve days away. There's, you know, a thousand people coming to the Albert Hall. It's musical. It's, I've written the whole thing. She chose the music, twenty person choir, et cetera, et cetera. Big show. And then my, I'll just, I don't want to rattle on, but my last thing would be my business. So I started a company when I was tw- twenty, grew it, it's worth three hundred million, you know, very interesting journey. Now I'm going like ten times bigger and to play at a ten times bigger level where you're trying to raise two hundred million from the start and grow a multi-billion dollar company. It requires a completely different set of skills. And again, you feel in some areas like an imposter.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:30Steven Bartlett?

  But I don't give a fuck because I've always felt this way. I've always felt like this. Like, I've always felt like this sounds crazy to say. That's how I felt. Everything I've said my whole life sounded kind of crazy to me.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:44Steven Bartlett?

  Until it wasn't.

• 25:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:46Steven Bartlett?

  So when I say crazy things these days, again, it's that hindsight of me going, well, everything else I said sounded crazy. And it worked out, so.

• 25:52Speaker 00

  It's, it's just, you just learn, don't you, from your experiences that you, even though it's a different uncomfortable zone that you're in, you got through your last uncomfortable zone and you came out stronger. And even if, and that's important, even if you failed at that time, you still survived it. You're still here. You're still breathing. You still get, you got up and you're going again. And that's important. That's the important point from it. And it's interesting to hear, like, I started my business, Prescribed, which is a very much smaller business, the bath bombs that we're doing, self-care, um, which is very exciting. But that's, that's, that's a very uncomfortable zone for me. I mean, you know, I have surrounded myself with a team that have experience in different areas. I, and I recognize that it is an area that is new to me. But even with the right people around you, it's, it's quite scary.

• 26:33Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 26:34Speaker 00

  So, um, you know, but it's exciting as well. I, I've, I think that's a big thing I've learned. I've learned to enjoy that feeling of being uncomfortable. My mom has a great saying, actually, and she, she said this for many, many years. I love it. Get comfortable being uncomfortable.

• 26:48Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  I think that's a really great point. I mean, you never are quite, I mean, it doesn't, it's an imperfect statement, but. It it I I kind of get that. It's like in it's like in hospital, for example, right? It's like in the hospital, okay? You start as a first year medical student, right? And you've never taken blood in your life. I don't know, you know, to get the needle into the vein, taking a blood test, right? Honestly, my hands shaking when I had to do the first blood test in real person. I thought, no, I'm out. I can't do this. I'm not made for it. I'm an imposter. What am I doing here? Get me out of here. And then, you know, you do it 10 times, like, oh, that's that's fine. And then you build up and then the first time, you know, when you're, say, a fifth year med student and you're doing your first CPR on a cardiac arrest patient, helping out in recess and then in the A and E department, like, oh, my God, this is too much. What am I doing here?

• 27:34Speaker 00

  Do it a few times, it's fine. And you just, you just, it just, every margin you gain, you get better at something. And but it always happens. I mean, even consultants, say, have been doing it, been studying for, between study and working for 15, 20 years. And they say the first day of the consultant, they feel like their first day at med school again.

• 27:53Steven Bartlett?

  I I think there's something really interesting there. So I want to ask you a question on that, that taking the blood from the veins as a junior doctor. How would you feel in terms of fulfillment? And I'm, this is, I'm totally leaving you to a place that I want to ask another question. But how would you feel in terms of fulfillment if you were a junior doctor, they said, okay, today, Alex, we're going to take blood from a vein. And then you had to do that exact same thing for 20 years. So first day, you're shitting it. Oh, my God. No, no, no. Shaking hands. Da da. Take the blood. Second day, a little bit more comfortable. Third day, a little bit more comfortable with it. How would you feel in 20 years' time?

• 28:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:28Steven Bartlett?

  Doing the same thing every day?

• 28:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I think you you need to, I think self-development is very important and feeling that you're adding layers to your skill set or whatever. We're talking about medicine here, but it can be anything in life. I think that variation and variety is very important and feeling that you're pushing, basically, you're feeling you're pushing yourself.

• 28:45Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 28:45Speaker 00

  And I think that's the idea, because at the end of the day, um, the struggle of life and the challenges in life, getting over them is what gives you that sense of reward. If you don't have a struggle, if there isn't any struggle, if life was completely easy, if you woke up with 50 million quid in the bank and there are no challenges at all, you'd be very bored, actually, I think, you know? And I enjoy, there's always a balance, you've got to balance, it's all about balance. You don't want too much struggle because that's, or too much hardship. And if I, if A and E was making me cry every day, clearly I wouldn't want to be there. But yeah, I think that it's good to have that increasing mounting challenge.

• 29:19Steven Bartlett?

  And that's exactly what I was alluding to, which is that that worthwhile struggle is achieved by stepping out, being uncomfortable, as your mother said. So we know that worthwhile struggle is so critically important to being fulfilled in life, as you've said. And that worthwhile struggle, like showing up that first day or then advancing is achieved by being uncomfortable. So if we reason from there, we can say being uncomfortable is the reason why you achieve worthwhile struggle, which is the reason why you achieve fulfillment. And this is part of what I was I was alluding to, which is people that avoid the uncomfortable piece, which is at the very start of that chain. Then don't get the worthwhile fulfillment, which comes from the the challenge, but also they stay in situations which are no longer serving them. Relationships, jobs.

• 30:02Steven Bartlett?

  And that again, because they're like, oh, my God, I can't uncertainty of jumping off this cliff and going into uncertainty is just. And then they and then they have midlife crises and mental health challenges. And so that's why I'm just so passionate.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  It's the whole idea around fearing less, I think. People are often it's I and I I love psychology. I read a lot of I've I've had power of now, you know, the secret, all the kind of classic ones, but I've, you know, really into that kind of mindset theory. And it it it a lot of people are very afraid that the next situation they might find themselves in will be more painful or difficult than their current situation. But in reality, often you find that the change you're going to experience isn't as bad as you think it is. It's the idea of like, you know, the the analogy of having a Ferrari on your drive, right? And you get your Ferrari and the first day you're so excited about it and you think, oh, my God, I'm going to be like so happy about this car. And this is going to be so every day we're so excited about it's going to be incredible. I've got this massive house, but every day that kind of that you return to the baseline level of happiness.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  What you're experiencing is pleasure, isn't it? And so fulfillment is a pleasure and that will come down. Obviously, the Ferrari after a certain amount of time, you might love it and I love my cars, but I'm not going to be jumping up and down every morning. Every time I see the car, it's eventually going to come back to the baseline. And equally, you know, you people worry on the opposite end, say, you're really, really worried about. I don't know, changing your job and you're really worried that you might, you know, you might start this new job, but you can be really bad at it and it's going to be so difficult every day and I'm just not going to be prepared. Or whatever. And you start the job and the first few days can be really scary. You might feel really uncomfortable and it's really challenging, but you will come back to that baseline of it being okay. And if you look at relationships, people worry, oh, I'm in this relationship. What if I break up in this relationship and the next one isn't as good or I'm not as happy or regret it. I think I've really, or really messed this up. What have I done?

• 31:44Speaker 00

  But actually your fear, when they actually do it, they go, actually it was fine. I wasn't meant to stay in that relationship, you know, I was actually staying in a place of fear and fearing too much rather than going, well, actually, if you stand to reason, you know, my current situation is far from perfect. I don't want to be in it. Why should the next situation be any worse?

• 32:03Steven Bartlett?

  I, I completely agree with everything you're saying. In fact, I sent one of my best friends a quote last night that I'd written. And because of the situation he was in, and I think it kind of exemplifies what we're saying. I said, if you want to avoid making the same mistakes twice, make more decisions based on your past memories and less decisions, decisions based on your current emotions. And what I was trying to say there is that in the moment, when you're in that relationship or you're in that toxic job situation, you'll, you'll be like suffocated and imprisoned by your own fear. Of uncertainty or failure, or I'll never meet someone as good as this, or whatever it is, but you've always got through it. You've been in love. Like with me, I was convinced from the age of 12 that I was going to marry Jasmine.

• 32:43Steven Bartlett?

  And then at 14, I was convinced it was Helen. And then at 16, I was like, do you know, I've always thought that this person was the one. In the moment, I've always thought this is it. And look at me moving on to number seven and thinking this is it.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  You, you kind of hold on to your current situation because ultimately we always go, well, actually my current situation I'm in, I'm not in pain. I've got food and water. I feel okay. It's not that terrible. What if the next situation, whatever that might be, work or otherwise, life or others, what if that is worse than my current one? We always fear the, fear the unknown, but it's the, it's like this, and I hope I'm quoting, quoting the right, the right genius. I think it was Einstein that said that, you know, the, the, it's the, the definition of insanity is repeating the same action or it's roughly along that lines, repeating the same action, expecting a different outcome. You know, if you, you know, one plus one is always going to be two. So, you know, if you're, if you're having that same outcome and frustrated with it, you have to change something in your equation to bring something different.

• 33:39Steven Bartlett?

  Amen. We were talking about failure there and you and you know, that led us on to talk about university and you subtly said that there was a part of university which you didn't enjoy.

• 33:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I don't think anyone in life lives an entire life of having just being happy all the time. Everything's great and having periods of being flat or sad or losing yourself. And I think my time for that up to date, I think was probably at university. I was at my fourth year, everything going great, studies going great. I was on for doing really well. And I actually was based, so I went to university in Peninsula, which is extra in Plymouth. But we do placements all the way around that kind of peninsula. So yeah, yeah. And I loved my time there. But I got sent down to Truro to hospital there and I loved the hospital people. Everyone was fantastic. But I was kind of away from friends. I was in a place that I just, I just felt quite isolated. And I actually suspect I'm probably just putting it on that as a place

• 34:35Speaker 00

  of reason. But for whatever reason, I just become quite flat and I lost interest in my exercise, stopped exercising, my studies even. Like, I wasn't really working as much as I should have been. Sleep went out the window. I was staying up late, getting up, you know, getting up late, eating bad. I just lost myself in time. I became quite unhappy and I kept really quiet about it. I didn't tell anyone because this is terrible. I was going to be a doctor. I need to be like really, really strong. How can you be a caring professional if you can't take care of yourself? So I left it a long time, probably like six, seven months of feeling pretty damn miserable. To the point where eventually I was like, I need to do something. But I was like, I can't speak to the med school because they might think this guy, we got off to hold him back or something. You can't be a doctor. That's not true. And I actually look back and think that was, you know, sadly, that's

• 35:17Speaker 00

  a big part of the stigma around mental health, but that isn't true. But at the time, I felt that way. So I called, who a lot of, a lot of people relate to this. What do you do in a situation of trouble? Called my mum. And I said, you know, it was a big outpour of emotion. I was like, this is, you know, this was happening. I feel dreadful. And she said, well, look, there's a few things we're going to do. We're going to talk every single day and start speaking about the thoughts and the things you're having. Because I've beaten myself up a lot and about insensitive and weak and all this stuff. So let's talk about this stuff. And secondly, let's start getting you doing the things that you know that are good for you. You know, she was like, you've stopped doing all the anchors in your life that keep you feeling Good. It's pretty wise for you, not a doctor, you know, she's a works in the bank, but very wise woman, clearly. And I'd like to think so.

• 35:56Speaker 00

  And she said, look, start doing those things again. So I thought, you're right. You know, she's making sense. I'll go for a walk every day. So I get natural light and the benefits of being outside in nature. Let's start exercising again. So I created an exercise routine. I was like, I'm eating crap, I mean rubbish food. Let's start cooking again. I make my own food. Uh, rather than just getting ready meals. Um, and, and I was like, let's, I'm not really connecting with people. So let's plan stuff. I started making plans with my friends. Uh, and I also had an idea. I was like, well, actually, you know, to help me feel less isolated, let's call a different friend every day. Some people I haven't spoke to for years and just chat to them. And all these little things, all these micro changes added up within literally weeks to like transforming how I felt. I got my Zasta Lviv back. I had my energy back. I was like, I'm back to that kind of.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  Type A, you know, happy, forceful person to kind of go out and really make the most of each day. And, and, and I think I've learned so much from that. And I've learned from that. Throughout, um, throughout my time post-university, but also I've learned about that in terms of what I think people kind of. Don't understand about health. And, you know, when I was at, when I was working at Leirisham Hospital, I still work there now in A and E. So many people that I see, so many patients come in and I realize that they've not been given the tools through education and school about understanding how to actually look after themselves. You know, we taught so much at school about maths and English and history and whatever, but no one tells you about.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Why sleep is actually so important to your productivity, your self-worth, your happiness, that sleep is not actually a, a state of just being sedated, sedated. You're actually in a creative space. The idea that, you know, nutrition can actually help you feel better, not just like, just for having a diet or whatever that people. Kind of see it as, you know, the role of exercise, all these different things. I'm like, but, but these things actually do matter because these things are not only keep your, keep you physically healthy, keep you mentally healthy as well. That's where, you know, the book Live Well came from. I, I wrote that book because I felt those are the things that no one taught me in school. And even at med school, you know, we focused on anatomy, physiology and pathology, looking at diseases and treatments, but we didn't do.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Enough, in my opinion, about these fundamental things around sexual health, physical health, uh, in terms of, you know, sleep, exercise, passion and purpose, you know. A big reason we go to school, right, surely is to find what our purpose and what we want to do in life. No one kind of gives you any tools, I don't think, to figure out what that is. You know, I was lucky to find my kind of sense of purpose. I was kind of stumbled upon it, you know, based on some of my interests and I was kind of lucky. Um, and I really felt that that, that those kind of bits, you know, that's why I wrote that book. I felt that is the stuff that I wish people had told me when I was younger, you know.

• 38:35Steven Bartlett?

  So I've got a couple of points here. When you went through that phase in university, would you class classify yourself as being depressed at that point?

• 38:41Speaker 00

  I would look back and I would say I was depressed, had low energy, um, my mood was poor, my sleep was disturbed. Uh, I lack of interest in my hobbies and stuff. There's plenty of kind of tick boxes for, for being in that category. I said I had mild depression at the time, mild to moderate depression.

• 38:56Steven Bartlett?

  And you said there that, and this is, because I mean, it speaks volumes to me, uh, what you said after, which was that people, we, what I heard was that people don't understand the full range of the causes of depression.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:09Steven Bartlett?

  And I've sat here twice now with Johanna Hari. Uh, do you know Johanna Hari?

• 39:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 39:14Steven Bartlett?

  Lost connections?

• 39:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:15Steven Bartlett?

  And, um, I, I went through the years and I've said this before, but I went through the years not, not believing this idea that we were just being born broken. And understanding that anything that's really changed in humans over the last, let's say, twenty years is the world we live in.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:27Steven Bartlett?

  Um, and the way we live, right? The way that society has conditioned us to live more lonely, as you've written about in this book. And I read about, um, uh, you know, less meaningful connections, less purpose in our lives, less exercise. We're getting more stagnant over the last fifty years than ever before.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:41Steven Bartlett?

  Um, and I, so Mike, one of the questions I was, I was planning on asking you today, but you kind of answered it there, but I'm gonna ask it again anyway. Is what are the biggest misconceptions about maintaining good mental health and or what's causing bad mental health?

• 39:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:56Steven Bartlett?

  That you have, um, in your opinion?

• 39:58Speaker 00

  Well, I think if you look at what humans are designed to do, we're designed to be out, well, we should be outside mostly, you know, we will create shelters and things, but most of our day should be in natural light. We should be, you know, going out and searching and foraging and finding our food as part of the team. So we're usually in a family or a group, a clan, to kind of to tribe, go out there and get your to get your food. We're supposed to feel that sense of purpose within within within our within our tribe. So someone is generally a leader, the people that help is people with different skills, but you feel a sense of belonging to that tribe. We should be eating food that comes from the earth, that's not processed food, that we certainly wouldn't do as part of part of nature. We get plenty of exercise

• 40:40Speaker 00

  as part of our day, you know, foraging, hunting, doing whatever, building. You look at modern life and flip that round and go, a lot of us spend our times in boxes inside without any natural light, glued to phones, not connected with people, often feeling that we don't have our sense of purpose and not really understanding, you know, why we feel that that way. You know, a lot of the things in modern life are pulling us away from good quality sleep, giving us bad sleep, they're pulling us towards fast foods and processed foods, away from natural sources of, you know, good quality food that fuels our body. And if you look at all that and you think about it that way, it makes a lot of sense why people feel quite lost. They don't know why they feel a certain way. And I think we just need to kind of step back and go, let's educate. And this is why, you know, what the work I'm doing in the youth mental health role,

• 41:25Speaker 00

  I'm focused on education so much, you know, and we've made five wellbeing videos for the summer as part of the summer school programme, which are going to go out to all the schools in the UK. And we're looking at, we're looking at sleep, we're looking at exercise, we're looking at nutrition, we're looking at managing social media and what to do when you're not feeling good in yourself. And within those videos and within the toolkits we're giving, I'm hoping there's a lot of stuff in it that people go, wow, like I didn't realise that about sleep and why that's important or, you know, why I need to get natural light, why I need to get outside. So I think so much of that stuff comes together. I'm not saying that the cause of mental illness is always related to lifestyle. That is obviously not true. There's a huge amount out there that's, you know, to do with genetics and diseases. You can't blame

• 42:10Speaker 00

  lifestyle for all diseases, but I do think it's a big part of it. And if you look at what happens when you go to your doctor and say, I'm depressed, I need help, the first thing we look at is lifestyle. And we combine that with other treatments if needed, regardless of that disease. And actually, even when you're looking at severe forms of mental illness, the lifestyle factor will always remain really, really. Important because without that, I don't think the treatments can can can do it alone. It has to be a combination thing, but this is what, you know, there's so many people out there, not necessarily depressed, but they're just a low mood of just anhedonia. They just don't feel themselves. They're just a bit lost. And I think a lot of it comes back to the things I talk about in that book.

• 42:45Steven Bartlett?

  I couldn't agree more. And when I, because I agree so much, I've I've tried to figure out how one would from their, you know, from their apartment here in Shoreditch, do something to help. And because it's such a fundamental issue about the way we've chosen to live our lives, you know, illuminated glass screens to date, to order food, to move around. As you said, isolated four white walls, these like, you can't tear that down, surely. So I think we, I I reflect and go, we would literally have to rethink the way we live our entire lives, the foundations in which our lives are built in order to solve this problem. That's genuinely what I think. To to truly solve this problem, we'd have to redesign our society.

• 43:28Speaker 00

  I think so. I think we, and even, I think as a whole, I think that's a big part of the solution. But as an individual, if you're sitting within this space, you know, in, you're living in the world we're in now, right? You can't get rid of social media. It's part of our work. It's literally part of the the mouthpiece of a lot of the stuff that we do, for example. You can't get rid of that. So what is the answer? It's about adapting and making sure that you are aware in your life of these principles. And thinking about how you can actually adapt your life to make sure you encapsulate, you know, you're incorporating that. For example, stuff like, I know if I don't go for a walk each day and get natural light and just feel that I'm about and around in nature, I get anxious. I I feel a sense of just like being not at ease. So I make sure every morning, I get up in the morning, first thing I do every day is go for a walk, out for a walk

• 44:12Speaker 00

  in nature. I move. It's great for productivity. I get great ideas sometimes when I'm thinking, walking some bad ones as well. But generally, this being out and about is brilliant for that. You know, I make sure that the end of each day, I again, get outside, I move. But also I do my exercise the end of the day. It signifies the end of my like working day. You know, I plan things, meaningful connections with my friends and family now more than ever. Like, it's so easy just to chat on the phone or FaceTime. I'm like, now that we can more safely with the pandemic. You know, make time for the people around you, see them in person, do things with them in in meaningful ways. Talking about sleep, you know, the whole like sleep when you're dead idea. And a lot of, I think, you know, you talk, you've talked to, obviously, a lot of very successful business people. And sometimes the slightly negative side of the work, that that life is

• 44:56Speaker 00

  not finding that balance of sleep. And I know the things I'm juggling as well, that can be difficult. But I, I really, really value and understand that if I don't have my eight hour sleep and good quality sleep, I'm not going to be as productive. I won't actually be as creative and I probably won't be as successful at things I'm doing. So it's just making those changes, you know, just, just being aware. Once you're aware of a problem, you talked in an episode before, but we talked about exercising between, for the summer, summer shape, right? Being a summer body, right? Not calling out here.

• 45:25Steven Bartlett?

  Like you before.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. But it, but you, but part of, for me, same for me as well. I went, well, why is that? Why are we doing that? As soon as you're aware of the why and why we're doing something, we then, through that awareness, modify and we realise all of a sudden, we modify our behaviour. It's kind of idea, if I say to you, right, focus on your breathing, it's like, oh, like, think about your breaths. All of a sudden, you start controlling your breathing, you're aware of it, you're making a conscious, conscious decision around that, that subject. So I think just having that knowledge, have that understanding and be aware of what it's doing to your life. Some of it might, you might incorporate something, you think, actually, I'm fine in that sense. But think about it.

• 46:04Steven Bartlett?

  You're such a good point. And, you know, like, up until, so the example you gave, just for reference sake, is I always, the reason why I was always unsuccessful in the gym is because I was, my goal was to get to look good for summer. So when I looked good or summer ended, my why was gone. And I, and I was, and it was a cycle that just repeated every single year.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  But I think most of us feel that. I mean, most of us have been there and done that, haven't we?

• 46:25Steven Bartlett?

  But your point there was the thing that cured it was the self-awareness of my own cycle. And without the self-awareness and the education, which I think you've, you've, you've done a tremendous job in this book of, like, of educating people on, we, as it relates to the point we're making about the society we live in and how it's broken, you will literally be a puppet to the society and the society will be your puppet master. It will tell you, the notifications on your phone will tell you when you can sleep. And it will tell you when, how to communicate and form meaningful connections.

• 46:56Speaker 00

  Use Tinder.

• 46:57Steven Bartlett?

  It will orchestrate your life for you. And I think what you're saying there is, which I completely agree with, is self-awareness allows you to take back control and be intentional about these critically important areas of your health.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  And then if you want any more kind of evidence of how much it controls it, think about, you know, what, if I said to someone now, right, don't have your phone in the bedroom tonight. It'd be an instant for most people. I don't speak for everyone, but a lot of people, I'm not doing that, anxiety around the thought of not having your phone in the bedroom. It's like, why is that such a big thing? It's not a problem to have a phone out to the room. Why do you really need it? But it shows our attachment to tech and to the modern life. You know, we don't need that phone. And actually, when I was on Love Island, the best thing about going on Love Island, it's like I didn't have a phone for nearly nine weeks. That was the best thing about it. I literally say that. It was great being out in sunshine. But that actually was amazing. It was like a real like, wow. And now I've come back, we're so attached to it again. And it's something I'm working on. I'm conscious. I need to start

• 47:51Speaker 00

  putting my phone out in my bedroom. I've done it a few times, but it just creeps back in. But I'm aware of it now. And then I think that's a big starting point for fixing a problem is just knowing it's there.

• 48:00Steven Bartlett?

  Speaking of Love Island, when you came out of Love Island, I heard that you went and did some therapy.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:05Steven Bartlett?

  Tell me about your thinking there and what inspired that.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  When you look at risks for deterioration in mental health or mental illness, one of the biggest things we talk about is change and big life change, changes. And people sometimes think that means bad things. It means good and bad. Like, for example, you could have been given your dream job in London and you're from Leeds. Now, that's the goal and what's happening is your dream. You've had that dream job, but it means a big life upheaval, getting a new flat, being away from family and friends. So even good things can bring problems, right? So when I came out of the show, I was like, wow, I've been through, I was quite aware, I've been through quite a big thing. I've gone from, you know, 200 followers on Instagram to 1 million in nine weeks. You know, I'm not someone from social media, I don't understand it at all. It was all completely new. The life had changed and

• 48:52Speaker 00

  now being stopped, you know, by everyone in the street, which is something so different for me. And I was like, I need to process this. So that's why I went to therapy. I think it was one of the best things I've done. I kind of had to kind of like unpick what I was going through and. It was almost like a such a big shock to the system and it really, really helped me. And I'd say to anyone, you know, everyone should have a therapist. I actually think, you know, everyone needs a therapist in life. And it's one of the things that I think the Americans have really got right. The thing that we could learn from is that it's so much more open to talk about things and what you're going through. And people are very happy to say, I'm getting therapy, you know? And it wasn't because I was particularly going through a difficult time. I just was aware I've had quite a big change.

• 49:35Steven Bartlett?

  Very self-aware of you to even to even want to do that. Because you, as you say, you weren't struggling tremendously in that moment, but you were. It was almost preemptive, I guess.

• 49:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:46Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  I just kind of was like, this is just, you know, kind of, sorry to use the word, but crazy. It's like, this is a crazy thing to go through. I need to kind of, kind of process this. And it really, it really helped me because I went back to unpicking about like, who am I? What do I want in life? What do I want to achieve in my life? And it allowed me to kind of consider those things as well as dealing with like, okay, what's it like? You know, to for people to recognise and all this kind of stuff. And, and it really helped me. And going back to that kind of purpose point, I kind of had this kind of big life shift of like, what is my purpose now? Because I've trained or I wanted to be a doctor since age of about 13. I've tried and all that training and all passed all those exams. I've actually pretty happy at 27 years old, being a doctor, you know, I've got a good life in what I'm doing. I enjoy it. Now I've got this whole new thing. What is my purpose?

• 50:31Speaker 00

  And it really helped me kind of figure that out. And one of the biggest things, the most important things that I did was going back to, to work. You know, I went back to A and E after a couple of months. And to kind of, to kind of just get back into that, kind of what the sense of me was. And from doing that, actually, it gave me the purpose for everything else. And all the things that I do and all the things of the books, the podcast, the, the, you know, the other bits and pieces that I'm doing in my life. It all stems off that, that purpose. And I think I was very lucky to have that therapy. And I'm glad that I had it to help me figure out what I was going to do.

• 51:02Steven Bartlett?

  Christ, because and in that moment, coming out of Love Island. You have more options than ever.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  But you can make, but more options also gives you, it brings the possibilities of making a lot of mistakes. For example, you know, and I, again, I don't, I'm not saying it's any kind of slight at all, we're all different, everyone's different. But for me, I was not going to come out and do club appearances or, you know, do those kind of things because it's a, I'm an introvert. I hated it, as you probably realised by now. But secondly, it would have drawn away from what I actually, what my purpose was and what I really wanted to achieve. So, you know, and, and, and I'm a very wise advice I received, um, coming out of the show. Sorry, I guess, things are already gone. So wise advice I received when I came out of the show was, you know, say no to most things, you know? If you're saying yes to more things, you're saying no, you're probably doing something wrong.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  And, and I had to kind of channel that and it was a risk in it in some sense. I could have made a ton of money going to club PAs. The most I was offered was like 10 grand to go to a club, right? Just for half an hour, 40 minutes, something. And I said no to every single one of them and just that I've never ever done one. But by doing that and channing my energy into things that I care about and putting my time into the projects that kind of matter and give me that longevity and the direction I want to be in. That was very important and I, yeah, as I say, I think a big part of figuring that all out was therapy that really helped me, I think.

• 52:25Steven Bartlett?

  It's really interesting as well is when you take, you, when you drift away from yourself, you almost don't notice it happening. Because you just take one of those club PAs and then, you know, someone, oh, they go, we'll get him back next week. And then they tell the club down the road and they, they get you down there and then they go, oh, well, I've got a friend that, maybe he can do some, you know, this or that, the other. And it's just this slow sort of swaying from, from yourself, from who you are. And this happens with a lot of people and they, and you know, it, sometimes it happens, I mean, yours was huge temptation in terms of like financial temptation. Some people, it's. You know, their mum telling them that they should be a lawyer and they go, well, you know, I'll do that. And then they get 10 years down the line and they've swayed so far from who they are that they've lost

• 53:07Steven Bartlett?

  that sense of their purpose. They don't even know the way back. It's almost but their their their new identity, their false identity has become so much part of them that they don't know how to, they've built this group of friends. That's the other thing, because then it's reinforced by the people you then associate with. You get the wrong type of people around you and then and it's hard to get back, right?

• 53:25Speaker 00

  I I I believe in that kind of, um, uh, you know, uh, law of attraction, but you know, if you if you move in a certain direction, you take a step in a certain direction, you will, you will move in that direction and the further steps you take, you move further into a direction and you will attract people that are moving in that same direction. And that's fine if it's going in the direction you want to, but if it's not, you're going to end up in a place you don't want to be. And that's why the number one first chapter that I do talk about is that passion and purpose, the purpose idea. How do you find your purpose? You know, and a lot of people ask that question and I think it's that idea, you've got to look at your like values, your experiences, your beliefs, your your interests and and and find that intersection between those. You know, what are your actual talents? You know, where where does that all kind of lie?

• 54:07Speaker 00

  I think you've you've always got time to change that direction. I think when you're, if you're in your in life and you're doing law, but you wanted to do, I don't know, you want to be an artist or whatever. Well, you know, why? First of all, you know, what do you need to, what what do you need to do to get to that position? I I do believe that modern life unfortunately does create a lot of boundaries and that you can't do this or that. You can't change your direction. If you're in this direction, you can't go in the opposite. And I think that's that's that's such a shame and we we should change that. Look at medicine, for example. I mean, imagine the eyebrows raised when I moved in the completely opposite direction. You know, I I don't mean this, I hope it doesn't come across this way, but a lot of the things I've done haven't been done before by someone that's, you know, a junior doctor that's going through those ranks. It's a first and and certainly in this country, the Dr. Mike has done something similar in America, but in this country it's quite different.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  And but I hope that people, what they'll take from that is that actually you can change. You don't have to go down a certain path. And if you're not happy with the path you're going down. What are you going to do to change it? You know, what are your goals? Write it all down. I still do it now. Every now and then when I'm feeling a bit, oh, I need to, you know, think about where I go with things, or I just need to have a moment. I write down all my thoughts, my goals, my ideas. Sometimes I just word vomit onto paper, whatever I'm just thinking in the moment. And then I leave that piece of paper for a day or so and I come back and I look at it and sometimes I think, what is written down here? I start circling stuff. I start thinking about, well, what, how does that connect? Why did I write that? What, what am I thinking about when I'm looking at that? And, and then from that you draw, take away that word vomit and make a new list of like,

• 55:34Speaker 00

  you know, what is my purpose? Number one, you can, you know, what is my number one purpose that I want? What is my purpose? And then, you know, under that, put your goals, you know, how am I going to achieve that? What are my goals? What are my aims? How am I going to put it into practice? And it's just a simple thing, actually. It's so easy. You just need a pen and a blank piece of paper. But I think everyone should do that so often. I mean, in business, they talk about the five year plan and all this kind of stuff. I think just as an individual, just get out of your head sometimes, you know, get out on paper, know what you're doing. Am I happy? Do I want to change it? Am I following? When I write down my purpose, am I actually doing that? Am I doing my purpose? But also if I'm not, what am I doing to achieve it? Cause if you're not doing anything that will get you to that purpose, then what are you doing?

• 56:15Steven Bartlett?

  There's something, what you're describing there is you're like interrogating yourself. You're interrogating your thoughts, your, your underlying reasons why you're thinking things, maybe thinking of pursuing things. And in a world where there is this constant whispering, this external whispering, which is saying, you should be an influencer, you should be a YouTuber. That's the, people will love you more if you're a millionaire. And that is, we're exposed to that every hour of every day, no matter where we look. This external thing telling you what your purpose is, what the best purpose is. And we know that, as you're saying, purpose is subjective. Mine's different from yours. But the world has a very clear idea of what the best purpose is.

• 56:55Speaker 00

  It's very interesting. It's a very interesting thought.

• 56:57Steven Bartlett?

  And that, and this is why I'm such a big advocate of this like interrogation. In fact, that's what's, it's cured. It's, it's saved me in my life because 18 years old, I went. My diary, it said Range Rover, hot girlfriend, million pounds, literally said million pounds before twenty five, Range Rover Sport. Those are my goals in life, came from a place of insecurity, obviously. I was therefore I was susceptible to that whispering, telling me what the best purpose and the way to millionaires, the way to happiness is. But without that interrogation you've described, you will go with that voice because it's fucking loud, right? So there has to be a counter voice. And by putting it on paper, you're really attacking that external narrative, which is threatens to lead you astray, right?

• 57:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think it's, it's that idea. Like you said, every life is kind of, all you've got influences within your life, like friends and family, they have common beliefs, what your mum wanted you to do or whatever. And that directs you. Then, as you say, you've got this massive, it's loud and quiet. And that's the problem is an undertone and a loud kind of barbers saying, do this, this is what, what should make you happy. I think that interrogation is very important. I think anyone listening to this, ask yourself honestly, when is the last time you genuinely sat down, I thought about what you want to do in life? What actually is your purpose? What makes you happy? What is peace? What, what, what does peace mean to you? You know, and, and if you haven't done it in the last year or so, do it. Take out a piece of paper, all you need is pen and a paper, it's a very easy task. It's not a complex one. Write, write it down. It's amazing. It's such a,

• 58:25Speaker 00

  it's a really enriching and motivating process. And, and again, the key thing is not like, it's not like, yes, I'm achieving it. It's not about that. And it's about going, well, you know, where, what direction am I going in? If it's not the direction I want, what am I going to do to change it? Basically.

• 58:41Steven Bartlett?

  I can't, yes. So, and to do it often as well, because again, you're going to log in often to Instagram and to, you're going to be exposed to that external voice often. So I think the practice has to, the counter practice has to be done often as well, which is that re-centering to self, right?

• 58:53Speaker 00

  And I think, yeah, absolutely. And I think when you're talking about Instagram, the, the, the voices, the noise that you're seeing online, particularly on that note, and I try and tell everyone this, go through your feed, if you haven't done it recently, go through your followers and unfollow anyone that doesn't serve your hobbies, your interests, your beliefs, your passions. It's amazing how much we collect people that we're following that actually make us feel bad. They're giving us the wrong noises. They're making us kind of judge ourselves harshly, or that's your body type, or what they're achieving, or they just annoy you. Unfollow it, your feed. If you're going to have this noise, have it as a noise that reflects, reflects your purpose, your passion, your hobbies, your beliefs. And I think that will, for a lot of people, make a big difference. So you're going to have the noise, have the good noise.

• 59:36Steven Bartlett?

  I I don't um I can't explain how important that advice is. Just thinking logically, if you go in your phone at the moment, you probably see, then I probably spend several hours a day on social media. That is several hours potentially polluting my my brain with junk values.

• 59:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:54Steven Bartlett?

  Making myself feel like shit. That is mental self harm. And and I so once upon a time. Quite literally, I once upon a time I made that decision. And so what, you know, because people listening to this, they'll say, well, you know, Alex, I can't unfollow this person because they are my friend or my work colleague, but you can hit the mute button.

• 1:00:12Speaker 00

  You can mute them.

• 1:00:13Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  Mute them.

• 1:00:13Steven Bartlett?

  I mute ninety ninety five percent of people in my timeline, genuine on Instagram, about ninety five percent of people are muted and I'm exposed.

• 1:00:20Speaker 00

  Now I was looking and going, hang on, I thought you were like, am I one in the ten? Am I one in ten?

• 1:00:25Steven Bartlett?

  Do I watch your stories? That's your answer.

• 1:00:30Steven Bartlett?

  If I'm not in your stories, then unfortunately you're muted. And it just is what it is. We've all got to protect ourselves.

• 1:00:34Speaker 00

  I agree. No, honestly, that that a hundred percent. If you can't unfollow, mute them. Just curate your feed, have it to be what you want to be. It's not just about business or influence. It's about just general life. Let's be honest, most people spend a couple of hours on your phones and make that couple of hours either enjoyable or useful or funny. You know, and the same with like TikTok and stuff. I use TikTok mostly just for a bit of fun. So I follow mostly like cats doing stupid stuff or whatever, just anything that makes me laugh. So just, it goes back to the kind of interrogating, why are you using that platform? Why are you using that social media? Is it serving your purpose? And trying genuinely, it's not easy, but trying try and create those boundaries. If you if I was going to say to anyone about boundaries around using your phone, try and protect the last and first hour of each day.

• 1:01:14Speaker 00

  The first hour is very hard because people get up in the morning, you're up and I'm sure, you know, looking at you like, oh god, you know, and even if you can do it to protect the first twenty thirty minutes, because the first thing people do, when you wake in the morning, and there's a lot of um um scientific thoughts around this, we are. A blank canvas, a blank piece of paper. We are so vulnerable actually in the morning to our day being dictated based on what we see and what influences our day. So if you pick up your phone, you see your ex-girlfriend or you see something or, you know, Trump has said something or there's a new news piece that's really triggering you, you are neck, you're allowing external factors to dictate the start of your day. When you're talking about being productive, creative and hitting the day and winning at the day, that's not a good start. So if you can get up in the morning,

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  leave the phone for the first 15 minutes. If it's an urgent message, fine. But get up, have your coffee, have your shower, do your exercise, have your walk or whatever, then open your phone. Even if you can do it for 15 minutes to start with, it makes a huge difference. And I find that benefit. Protect that morning and the evening, protect, you know, give that time because what people don't realise often is that what we see in the last kind of hour at night dictates a lot of what goes on in our brains. If you are watching, triggering stuff on TikTok, even if it's funny stuff, that is going to influence what your brain's doing from then on. So think about what you're putting in front of your eyes before bed.

• 1:02:28Steven Bartlett?

  I need to stop watching all these bloody murder documentaries.

• 1:02:33Speaker 00

  Before sleep.

• 1:02:34Steven Bartlett?

  That's all. I fall asleep watching a murder documentary, I'd say 90% of the time. And that's no exaggeration.

• 1:02:39Speaker 00

  What do they say about CEOs?

• 1:02:41Steven Bartlett?

  I know, right? Exactly. Something you said there is really interesting. And this, this could be a tough question. So you talked about the, you know, Instagram giving false, unhealthy false comparisons. Love Island is the same. How do you kind of like, having been on the show?

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  How do I find peace with it?

• 1:03:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  And it's interesting because I, there's two sides to it. I think that people watch Love Island for escapism and a lot of people watch it and don't kind of, it doesn't go past that level of just like, just easy watching, fun stuff that you're seeing. But then for some people, they're seeing these bodies and it is affecting their belief and their value within themselves. And that is what worries me. And a big, now I sit on the ITV board for mental health. So one of the things we're really looking at now is that we should be reflecting on particularly reality TV, society as a whole, both in kind of diversity, you know, in terms of backgrounds.

• 1:03:38Speaker 00

  You know, but also body image as well, you know, and I think that's the direction we should be moving in very importantly. And something that I've really said before, the series of Love Island, we've got to see that it reflects society as a whole. You know, whether they follow that advice, that's that's down to them kind of thing. But you know, my, my real worry is that, you know, for some people, it does send out that, that, that wrong message. But, you know, it's difficult. I went on the show as myself, pretty much the one regret I had is going on the show is I think I probably trained very much for the show. If I did it now, I'd still train, but I'd probably do it less worrying about being like ripped or whatever. But it is interesting because, you know, most people would say if they went on TV in that way, they want to feel comfortable. I think there's that balance of feeling comfortable in your own skin.

• 1:04:23Steven Bartlett?

  But why?

• 1:04:25Speaker 00

  But not to the extent extreme that I went to, you know, I was training so hard and stuff and I was worrying about too much. Now I'd be a bit much more like, you know.

• 1:04:32Steven Bartlett?

  They want to feel comfortable is an interesting thing because the reason they wouldn't feel uncomfortable is again because of what society's told us what you should look like. And I, I, I think Love Island's success is kind of is somewhat linked to the Instagram culture we live in. It feels like if Instagram was a show, it would be Love Island.

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's kind of what I mean by the comfort, for comfort, I guess. It's about what you, where you feel that you want to be within your, within your, within yourself. Like at the moment, I'm probably carrying a few more pounds and I, I'm happy with, I like, I know that I move better in that way. I feel more comfortable in that way. And it's just being happy than yourself, but not being influenced that I, like, for example, I don't, I'm not bothered though. I have a six pack, you know, I'm not, I don't, I wouldn't feel that now. So me being comfortable means me having a six pack. I actually very happy just to be lean, to move, to, you know, feel energized and stuff. And that is what comfortable would mean to me now. But at the time, because I felt like, oh, I needed to look with the abs and everything like that. I was like very much actually out of my comfort.

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  You know, I was restricting my diet hugely. I was overtraining. I wasn't spending time with friends. Saying before the show, I didn't see anyone for like 20 weeks. I found out on the February, I basically went to this interview and I had no intention to go on the show. It just kind of happened. And from there, I was offered the place and actually my consultant said, do it. And I had this obviously noise of frame. I had been like, take opportunities. It's like, all right, can I go for this? You know, I had 20 weeks between knowing I was going on and going on the show. Most people apply the show, apply in the September before, almost a year before. And in that year before, they're already in, you know, this certain shape and look this certain way. So I felt a lot of pressure from it. And I say, if I went back, I'd do it differently. I would do it differently. But it's easy to say with hindsight, of course, very easy to say with hindsight.

• 1:06:13Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think, do you think, do you think Love Island is good for one's mental health?

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  Is it good? I wouldn't say that it adds to people's mental health, no. But in a way, you know, if it's escapism that people enjoy and they watch it, I think the important thing is how people are perceiving what they're seeing. What you're seeing as a show ultimately, it is just TV, isn't it? It's how you're perceiving it. But if you're finding that it's triggering you, don't watch it. It's the same with Instagram. And unfollowing accounts are not making you feel good or that are not serving your purpose. If you are, if you find that it's triggering you and how you feel, don't watch it. You know, I haven't watched this series. I mean, I've got a lot of stuff going on. I don't, I just don't have time to watch, to watch the show. And, and I'm not missing out. I don't feel that I'm missing out.

• 1:06:54Steven Bartlett?

  My, my, my issue there is that people, people don't know if it, the impact it's having. And I, I remember this study by Professor Tim Kesser, who studied how people's values changed from what they, from what they see on the TV. And he talks, he does a study with these kids. And when kids watch, um, the example is they watch, um, some people, uh, another kid with not so good values, playing with a really nice toy.

• 1:07:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:18Steven Bartlett?

  And they've, and they've shown the, the kid watching the show, um, the advert for the toy. They've made the kid really want the toy. And then they've, and then they've given it to someone with really bad values. Just because they watched the advert of, um, the toy, the kid will then, from that point onwards, choose to associate with bad values.

• 1:07:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:35Steven Bartlett?

  Just because, so the kid didn't know what was going on, right? It's a bait as a kid. It doesn't, yeah, doesn't understand that it's, it's values are being swayed just by what it's seeing on the TV. But then in its life, in the study, the kid will then go and choose bad values over good values. And it's that, obviously, you know, people, and to be fair, like, most people aren't as like, psychologically introspective as maybe me and you are. So they are just.

• 1:07:56Speaker 00

  The thing is, and I guess the point, and I completely see that side of it. I see that my opinion is good and bad to love islands. I'm like those most things in life, like for example, social media. My point is if you got rid of Love Island tomorrow and you cancelled it, it'll be replaced by something else. It's like social media, you can't, it's out now, like reality TV, these kind of shows are out there. So what can we do about it? First of all, let's think about what we're putting on and what we're representing on there. And second is educate. And I think that's why, for example, one of the wellbeing videos are on social media. And a big part of that is like dealing with what you see online, body image stuff, which actually links and extends, like you said, from from Love Island. It says, education is a very important point within that. If you're being aware. I think that is the part that we can control. Same with social media. We can't get rid of Twitter.

• 1:08:38Speaker 00

  Twitter, you know, there's some good stuff about Twitter. I think there's a lot of bad stuff about Twitter. I find it quite triggering a lot of the time. Can we get rid of it? No, it's not going anywhere. So is it about learning how to manage what's going on on there? And working with the social media companies to improve that space, which is what we want to try and do. Yes. Is it also educating people about how to use that tool as well? And that's the difficult thing, you know, and ideally if we get rid of all the bad things in life or things or the elements that are bad, that would be amazing. But it's some stuff out there. We have to just learn to manage and learn, you know, how to deal with.

• 1:09:08Steven Bartlett?

  No, I think you're right. I think that I think Love Island is definitely a consequence of a culture that is demanding that that type of show. I think you're right that if you are to help erode the demand, then you have to kind of go to the root cause of of.

• 1:09:23Speaker 00

  We have to change what people want and then that will, the stuff on TV is like exactly what you said. It just reflects what people are wanting in that moment because that's what they believe they want. It's like what what papers write and what headlines are. They're just reflecting what they believe people want to see or what they believe that people will be interested in, I guess.

• 1:09:40Steven Bartlett?

  And reinforcing it.

• 1:09:41Speaker 00

  And reinforce, yeah, exactly. And reinforcing that cycle. So by changing and going and into into schools and going, well, actually, why does the, why do you need to look like that to be happy? Does that actually make you happy looking like that? Is that something to aim for and changing that? I think that is how we'll change what we see on screen.

• 1:09:57Steven Bartlett?

  And you worked as a doctor throughout Covid. That is woof.

• 1:10:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it's odd because it was good and bad all at once. And I clearly have to justify why I'm saying there's an element of good to it. The bad part was obviously everything we saw, and I think Lewisham Hospital was one of the hardest hit hospitals. I mean, the amount of death that we saw was huge and I saw so much death every day, young people as well as old. And I think it was a real, I don't know, it was a real kind of wow, this is happening, you know, feeling. As we saw everything getting so busy, the resus department being full of patients, having to make very difficult decisions about

• 1:10:38Speaker 00

  situations and patients individually, and also how to manage the hospital in terms of capacity and ventilators.

• 1:10:43Steven Bartlett?

  Difficult decisions.

• 1:10:44Speaker 00

  Well, you know, when we see, when we see a really unwell patient and so resus is the place we see the sickest patients in hospital. Generally, most departments will have minors, majors and resus. Resus is the place that you are, that if you're really unwell and if we don't do something, you are, there's a high chance that you're going to die or have serious outcomes. Right. So if you're in there, generally you're pretty unwell. And when we see a patient even pre-COVID times, we have to make a decision about what we're going to do and how we're the best places for their treatment. And what the ceiling of treatment is as well, you know, for, and what I mean by that is, for example, so we're seeing a patient in resus.

• 1:11:22Speaker 00

  You know, for example, if we're seeing a patient that has loads of comorbidities, they have lots of, a high burden of illness. It could be, you know, they have diabetes, heart disease, they might have end stage kind of dementia. They might not be aware of where they are, might be very elderly, very frail. If they are very unwell and with an illness, we have to make a decision about whether actually it is kind and correct to put them in intensive care with all the invasive wires, the lines we put into central arteries, putting the tube down the airway. You know, what is, what are we doing that for? Is that going to likely benefit that patient and lead to a good outcome? And what we want is to treat people in a way that's kind and that we can, we know that what we're doing is just a.

• 1:12:07Speaker 00

  For that patient, because that patient is the center of that approach. So we have to always make decisions about that. You know, if it's a young person. And it's not an A, very important to say age is not, is not, is not the factor that we make that decision based on, upon. Being fragile and frail physically, which might be associated with age, is something we think about, but not age in itself. But if you are a, in, in your physical health, young, fit and healthy. And we think that taking intensive care and do all this stuff is likely to lead to a good outcome for you, then obviously that's, that's what we do. But there's certain decisions where, for example, in the COVID, the pandemic, we had someone with dementia. And maybe wasn't aware where they were, that at the kind of end of their life, they've got this, this horrible illness. Should we be putting them in intensive care? And we have to make those very difficult decisions.

• 1:12:51Speaker 00

  Now, important to say that going to intensive or not going to intensive care doesn't mean that you're not going to get treatment. We still oxygen, you know, the, the lines for antibiotics, all these things. We still do that, but is it kind to put tubes down, down people's airways? It's very difficult though to make all those, those kind of decisions and it's made between intensive care department, the, the A and E department. But these are really tough decisions to make and, and even people, younger people in these situations, we had to make those difficult decisions with. And, you know, I think that was very, very hard. I think we were at a point, particularly at the start of the pandemic and also at Christmas, where we were pretty much nearing being overwhelmed. You know, I remember this Christmas, just after, I think it was January, I worked Christmas day. And then it was a few days after that, I think it was just, just after New Year's in January.

• 1:13:36Speaker 00

  We, we had like no ventilators left in the hospital, you know, we'd found, we'd found, we managed to get hold of some, literally the point where like, oh my God, we don't have any more. So thank God that no one went without, but it was really at that point where we're like, wow, we're like resource wise running out here. Because I don't know if you remember, they declared a major incident in London. And what that really means is that for healthcare professionals, for doctors, for heads of departments, for heads of hospitals. They are then in a position where they might have to make decisions about resources. I E. Do we give a ventilator to you or you? That is ultimately what we're saying is that the pressure and the, the, the weight on the NHS is at the point where we might have to decide. You're having this ventilator, you're not.

• 1:14:19Speaker 00

  And very fortunately, like certainly when I was in there, we didn't have that situation. I wasn't faced with that situation, but it was one that we were. Anticipating of things can get better. So that's, that, you know, it was pretty tough in that sense. The good side of, of, of being in A and E throughout the pandemic was that I wasn't on my own. You know, I was living my own in London and I would have otherwise been at home the whole time. I felt a sense of purpose going there. Um. I felt that I was able to do something in that time. And I was surrounded by my friends. So it's an odd catch twenty two of like the worst, but also kind of helps.

• 1:14:54Steven Bartlett?

  Do you have a worst day throughout that period? A day where you think that was the hardest?

• 1:14:59Speaker 00

  Worst day, worst day throughout the pandemic. Um.

• 1:15:03Speaker 00

  I, I think there was a, I, there was a day where we were, I was in recess that day. So we were kind of rotating different parts of departments. So I was in the resource department. And, um, I was in there with a couple of the doctors and other nurses and we were pretty much at capacity. So within the, our resource department, we have like, what, five, six, seven or eight beds, seven, eight beds in that resource area, bearing in mind these patients that require a huge amounts of care. I mean, these are, you know, trying to be near enough to one to one as we can to look after them because they're very unwell. They're very sick. Um. And we're at that point, day, we had two patients per bay. So we had to put two beds in each bay because we were absolutely at capacity.

• 1:15:45Speaker 00

  And in fact, we're at the point where we're having to put some, almost in the corridor area of the resa. So it's within one big room, big box room, but not in the bay. And that is very scary. And then we're also having that day. I remember we had ambulances lining up. So blue light ambulances. So they're the ones bringing the sickest patients outside. And you're looking at this situation going, we're at capacity. No, actually, we're, we're, we've gone over the capacity. We, we, we don't have any more capacity. So what do we do? And that is very frightening, not just in terms of space, but in terms of, right, I'm looking after this patient, this patient, this patient, this patient, this patient. They're all really sick. They all actually need by one to one time. How do we manage that situation? And that is very, very difficult.

• 1:16:27Speaker 00

  And a lot of, a lot of people in the NHS has faced that across the country, you know, in parts of, for example, St Thomas's. They were had like one nurse for every five patients at some points during the pandemic in intensive care. It should be one to one intensive care.

• 1:16:42Steven Bartlett?

  How do you, how do you deal with, how do you deal with the forming a connection with someone and then losing them in that hospital ward? And that must have happened time and time again throughout the pandemic.

• 1:16:53Speaker 00

  Very tough. And I think one of the things that were hardest was, you know, people couldn't believe it had happened to them. I saw a, I've got to be careful, of course, of confidentiality, but I saw a gentleman who came in, who was a professional, middle aged man, was otherwise pretty well, had a family. A few days later, he was fine and all of a sudden just deteriorated with his cough and breathlessness. By the time he came to us, his oxygen levels were incredibly low. He required a really high level of oxygenation, even with the high level of oxygen we give him through a mask. It was clear that he actually needed to have a tube passed down to take over his breathing because even with a high level of oxygenation and actually the pressurized mask we were using, we still weren't achieving adequate levels of blood saturations of oxygen. So it was not survivable

• 1:17:38Speaker 00

  to continue in that way. And we had to have a conversation with him and I had to say to him, look, you know, we are going to have to intubate you, we're going to have to put you in induced coma, we're going to have to put you doing a throat, we're going to have to take over your breathing. You need to ring your family, we're going to get the iPad because we had this, you know, he's kind of sad, we had iPad there for people to talk to their family before we did these things because we knew that roughly, if you're getting intubated, it's about 50/50 ish, something like that of survival. It depends on the patient. There's a lot of different things, but the general rough kind of thing is that. And we said, look, you're going to have to say, potentially say goodbye because we don't know, we don't know what's going to happen. And he was very well, but he couldn't, you know, he was still in his suit at the time when he came in and he just couldn't believe it was happening. And it was that disbelief. He was like, am I really that sick? You know,

• 1:18:20Speaker 00

  we just explained everything as to why. And it was really, really hard watching someone going, how has this happened to me? And you have this moment of like, is this real? You know, is this some kind of, you know, dream nightmare, I guess. And we had to intubate him. He did survive, but he was very sick. And I think he was the, he survived by like a hair's hair strands kind of width of him being from, from death, I would say. He was very, very unwell, was in intensive care for a long period of time, but he did make it through. But he could easily have not. And I think witnessing those kind of events, and I've witnessed many other times with even younger people who didn't make it through. That is very tough. That's very difficult. Because when I go home at the end of that

• 1:19:04Speaker 00

  shift, I'm like, well, will he make it? Will he not? It's very, very hard.

• 1:19:09Steven Bartlett?

  And then when you find out they haven't, I just, the constant, the constant bad news associated with that job.

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  Hmm. Most of the time, A and E, the beauty of A and E is vast majority of the time, we get it right. Vast majority of the time, people survive, people, um, we make people better. And that's what we're very fortunate about. Actually, most of the time, we spend our time making people better and it works. Um, with the pandemic, it's very hard, but in even within that, of course, there's death. I mean, you know, I don't know the actual exact figures, but every day or so, every day, some, every day, someone will die in the A and E, uh, multiple times a day, people will die across the hospital. That is unfortunately the reality of the job that we do. So we do get used to that. But I think in the pandemic, it's the volume of that. The amount of death we saw was just exponential. So you kind of, you balance it in your head because you think, well, 95% of the time, this is a

• 1:20:00Speaker 00

  good outcome. We do good and we help people and people get better. But in the pandemic, there was a swinging of that balance to being like, oh my gosh, I'm trying my best for all these patients, but a lot of people aren't making it. A very, very important thing to say is, well, as you talk, I am working in a position where I'm the research department of a very busy hospital in A and E in London. We know that the mortality rate with COVID is around 1%. So I'm not, don't want to send like sensationalize that element, but I am seeing that percentage of people who are the sickest who are in the hospital. So it's obviously important to say that. There are very many that 30% don't even have any symptoms. But I think it's very important for people to realize that there is very much two ends of that spectrum. And then the very sharp end, if you're a very sharp end of that spectrum, then, then they can be very serious.

• 1:20:43Steven Bartlett?

  So my last question on this COVID topic is, you know, because of that perspective that you do have and the spectrum, the side of the spectrum that you sit on, when you come on online and you see people going, oh, COVID's not true, conspiracy, oh, vaccines don't work, COVID's not real, it's some government, blah, blah, blah, it's the 5G masts, blah, blah, blah. What do you think?

• 1:21:05Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, forget almost for a second the disrespect that it shows to all the doctors and nurses that have worked in that situation, had to deal with the things they've dealt with. And actually, the professionals that have died of Covid, don't forget, we have lost quite a lot of NHS staff. I actually, we nearly lost one of my good friends, who was a nurse at Leirisham. She was in intensive care for three months, she nearly died of Covid, treating patients in recess. But also, the disrespect to all the people that have lost their lives, you know, from this, and the families that now have to live, of being one of the, you know, the groups of people that have lost, it's very upsetting. I mean, you know, people are going around, I mean, people are going around to hospitals, going to waiting rooms of like boots or outpatient reception, going, look, the hospital's empty. It's like, yeah, it's empty because we've closed all that, because all the doctors and

• 1:21:48Speaker 00

  nurses are pooled into the acute settings in the hospital to look after the rammed wards of patients that we need to care for. But the public see this picture of an empty reception room, thinking, oh, the hospitals aren't busy. You know, so it's, but I think the vast majority of people out there are good. Most people have been incredibly supportive. The amount of support we've had for the NHS has been unbelievable. The fact that the 73rd birthday, the NHS has awarded the George Cross of, I think it's for bravery, isn't it? But anyway, so it's the highest recognition, isn't it, that it can achieve, is a really good thing. And I hope that actually people have realised now how much we need the NHS, how lucky, I mean, you've been to America, you know, the beauty is, if you're here in this country, if you've, God forbid, you're cycling home from work one day and you get

• 1:22:30Speaker 00

  knocked over, you get hit on the head, and you have a bleed in your brain, you will go to a hospital, you'll be operated on by a neurosurgeon who will look after you, you'll be in a hospital bed, you'll have all the rehabilitation that you need and support, even if it's for many months, and you will, at the point of that service, at the point of care, you won't pay a penny. That is incredible. If you compare that to the god knows how many hundreds of thousands of millions that would cost in other countries, we're very lucky.

• 1:22:55Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, my God. Anyone that's against the NHS only needs to go spend a week in New York and just go, you know, speak to people about their relationship with their health. For us, we don't, we don't think about it in the same way. People in the US have to choose their job based on health options, and they have to, and when they get, you know, when they lose their job, they're losing their healthcare. It's just, and we don't even consider it.

• 1:23:17Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:23:17Steven Bartlett?

  And I tell you what, from living in New York for three years, I'd much rather have it this way. I feel, and it's given me this huge sense of gratitude for the NHS because we just totally take it for granted, especially people that haven't experienced the alternative.

• 1:23:27Speaker 00

  I mean, I, I, I, um, a few years ago, I got sepsis. Uh, I was actually working in A and E and I'll say in a shift in leadership and about, I started feeling fever in the afternoon. And by, by late afternoon, I didn't, really didn't feel well. I actually cycled home about six miles from work, really struggling. I was really fit at the time, but I was struggling to get home. Got home, I was like, pulse and I'm fever. Oh gosh, I'm actually quite sick. I was a bit of a realisation. Got on the tube to go to, uh, St Thomas's at Westminster, pretty much collapsed in the door of St Thomas's. Ended up in recess and had the most incredible care. Was in hospital for a week with sepsis. But they saved my lives and I was like, wow. And I saw, it was really interesting because I saw the NHS from not as a worker, but as a patient. And I was like, God, we are so lucky. I literally had everyone looking after me, the care I had.

• 1:24:12Speaker 00

  And let's be frank, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the treatment I had. And at the end of the week or whatever, thankfully I had a quick recovery. I just walked out of the hospital and, and with, and I was like, that's it. You know, I've had this amazing care. I don't have to pay anything and I, and I'm still here to tell the tale, you know? So I think, I really hope people will support the NHS more than ever now, coming out of it and protect it and make sure we don't strip it of any more of its money.

• 1:24:37Steven Bartlett?

  Um, I want to talk about 2019, the, which was the year, 2020.

• 1:24:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:43Steven Bartlett?

  The year you lost your brother.

• 1:24:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:24:45Steven Bartlett?

  Um, I, I, I saw your interview with Lad Bible and I saw the, um. I can't, I can't quite, you know, I can't quite shake that, that image of you sat at dinner. You said about your, your dad's phone, phone call. Can you take me back to that, that moment?

• 1:25:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's almost a year to the day now. I think 23rd of July will be its, uh, the anniversary of his death, which, you know, the year has gone very quickly. Right. It's very odd. It feels like yesterday, but yeah, very odd with the time. But, um, yeah, I was sat, um, at dinner, uh, in London with some friends. Uh, we actually just ordered a few drinks, um, about to order kind of, uh, start, I was main, I was busy looking at my menu, thinking, we're going to eat and whatever. I think, oh, it's a great place. This is, you know, enjoy myself. And the phone went. I'm thinking of my dad, I say, look, if you, because I do a lot of stuff with filming or whatever, you know, if you ring once, just if you just want to chat, ring once, and I know you're ringing for chat and I'll call you back. But if you ring twice or more, I know it's something important and I'll always answer, doesn't matter what situation I'm in.

• 1:25:44Speaker 00

  So he rang twice, in fact, I think it was going on the third call, all right, okay, I need to answer this. And I could hear in his voice instantly that something really bad happened. It's weird when you, when you hear that rattle or that kind of tone in someone's voice, there's only one thing that has happened. And I just said straight away, like, who's, who's died, like, who's passed away, like, what's happened? And he said, uh, Theo's passed away, Theo's dead. And I was like, what? Uh, and it was weird, the whole world like closed in and I can't explain it, it sounds very dramatic, but it was like almost a spotlight came on to me in that moment. And I was like, no, it can't be, I just couldn't believe it. Um, and the disbelief and he said, yeah, he's passed away. And then we had to drive back, I mean, my middle brother Elliot, who's in the RAF, he drove up to London, he works out just outside in one of the bases.

• 1:26:27Speaker 00

  And he came in to fetch me and we drove back together and it was kind of a five hour drive back to West Wales. And it felt like 10 eternities, like we, every mile was at the longest mile. And I went into every like corner of my mind, but you just couldn't fathom it really, you know, and I think that's the thing about suicide or, you know, about when these things happen. You know, it can happen out of nowhere and you just haven't seen it and you've been hit by this train. And it was kind of a weird, we were talking earlier on about Freya and having the opportunity to say goodbye, like having that closure. I didn't get that with him, you know, he was supposed to come to London the week after, and then we were going to go back to Wales together. And it's the first time I'd have seen him in a long time because of the pandemic. And all of a sudden I was like, wow, I don't get any closure, that's it then.

• 1:27:11Speaker 00

  You know, and I think that has been varied and continues to be very difficult, the lack of, you know, what, why, you know, why didn't he talk to me about it? You know, as someone he knew with the work I was doing around mental health, particularly during the pandemic. Um, you know, why didn't you ask me for help, you know? Um, that's very, very hard.

• 1:27:27Steven Bartlett?

  I I saw you said that one of your biggest sort of regrets as a family was not seeing the signs. And in hindsight, you can start to think, well, you know.

• 1:27:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's one of those things, isn't it? I mean, it's, it's, you know, he was very worried about his exam results coming up, but, you know, understandably so.

• 1:27:43Steven Bartlett?

  Everyone is.

• 1:27:44Speaker 00

  Place at med school that he's very excited, so what happened to me, he's very excited about that, his future planning about it and really looking forward. And, and, you know, I think probably in the weeks before, he probably was a bit more anxious about the pandemic. And I thought, well, you know, he's been locked up quite a bit with all the restrictions, but we're going to see him next week. But nothing out of what I would say is what you'd expect as a, you know, 90 year old kid that's been kind of stuck in the whole time. And but now it's easy. It is easy when you look back and you think in hindsight, oh, that was a sign of that, that and that. But you're going to have that regret, aren't you? You know, you're always going to, it's human nature. My mom is always has that sense of guilt around it, you know, and she can't control what happened. It's it's his action, it's his

• 1:28:24Speaker 00

  choice that he made. But for everyone around that person is that guilt that you carry, I think, forever.

• 1:28:31Steven Bartlett?

  And there was no lasting indication of how he was feeling. He didn't, he hadn't said anything to anybody.

• 1:28:37Speaker 00

  No, I mean, he was, he was really fed up with being kind of the pandemic again. And he was worried about his exam results. We talked about that a lot. And I'd asked him how he's feeling. I was like, yeah, I've once got the, got through this bit, you know, I'm kind of all right, kind of thing. And nothing that would make you think that, you know, and go down to that that route. But it's one of those things that people, often when people go and, you know, take their own life. Or, you know, not all the time, but quite often, people will sometimes, well, at least in his case, you know, they don't give the warning signs because they've made their decision of what they wanted to do. And and the shame is, I think, the biggest shame, I think, is that he just obviously couldn't feel the sense within him that he could ask and say, this is how I feel. Can I have help?

• 1:29:18Speaker 00

  And when I talk about a lot of the work I want to do around stigma and people go, oh, yeah, we're talking about loads stigma's done. So, no, because, you know, he felt to the point where he'd rather take a fight, you know, a final decision that had a binary decision, if you like, with his life. He felt so much like this with it that he couldn't talk about it, that he took that decision. So I think there's so much cultural stuff, there's so much stuff around stigma that there's still still got to do to change that because, you know, if you'd have said something, if you've talked about it, we could have, you know, I big believe that we can get through anything, we can change, you can, we can, we can work through most things, but you've got to have the opportunity for help. But I think that's where there's an interesting um conversation around, yes, mental health services clearly need real funding.

• 1:30:00Speaker 00

  I'm gonna, I'm, there's no counter argument against that and we need to do more. But we actually have to work on education around mental health and the stigma element too, because in his scenario, even if you had the best mental health system in this country ever, he, if you didn't ask for help, how is he going to access that service? And I think we lose too many, particularly young men each year, who are not actually accessing any help or reaching out at all before they take that decision. We're losing the chance to save those people, you know, and I think there's that balance, you know, we need to work on the stigma, we need to work on the funding. Um, in combination to kind of change this, but you know, for him it's too late, you know, but I hope that through my work I'm doing now.

• 1:30:41Speaker 00

  I can't take the pain or whatever way of what's happened, but I can hopefully prevent other families going through it because it's an awful burden to carry, you know, and I've got to carry it for whatever, you know, hopefully a long time, but you know, whatever length of my life is, I have to carry that, you know, but that doesn't go away. It's always there.

• 1:30:57Steven Bartlett?

  This is a tough question. But you just said that you you have to carry that burden and people often think that, especially people that haven't, aren't, are naive to grief. They think that it's you go through the process like break, like a breakup and then you're, you know, your business as usual, but you've got to carry that grief for a long time.

• 1:31:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:14Steven Bartlett?

  Do, is there a mixture of emotions in terms of feelings towards the decision he made? Um, that you also contend with?

• 1:31:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think you go through, I think you go through every emotion of like anger, upset, frustration, sadness, feeling of guilt, every spectrum of negative emotion, I think, and you cycle through that. And the process of I've had with grief is kind of going through the kind of shock phase, you know, anger, shock, upset. Um, you know, the kind of sadness through it and trying to come to a place of acceptance, I guess, is where you've got to try and get to. And I, I don't know, I'm guessed somewhere. On the way, I guess on the way to that, but you kind of go backwards and forth that sometimes, you know, I think your grief is not a linear process. I think it's very much that zigzag of kind of, you get better, get worse, get a bit better, get a bit worse. And, and you know, you carry what I think is like a black box in your head with it, you know, and when it first happens,

• 1:32:05Speaker 00

  you're just staring into this abyss of this black box of sadness and everything. And then eventually you learn to close the box. Eventually it shrinks a little bit. And hopefully eventually you can put it on your shelf and you can sometimes go and sit and ruminate with it. But then you can put it back when you, when you need to. And I think that is what happens. And I think that's why you will always carry it. You can't get rid of it. You know, you never stop loving that person. You know, you just have to learn to live with that black box in your head, basically.

• 1:32:31Steven Bartlett?

  And I imagine that's quite, I mean, losing, I've got two brothers, so I'm, I imagine that's quite an informative life, tragic informative life incident that then changes the way you view your own life and choices and decisions.

• 1:32:46Speaker 00

  I, I think it puts into perspective thing. I think it puts things in perspective. But interestingly not as well. I still get annoyed and upset about the same things I got annoyed about before. But I have to go, Alex, like in reality, to some things you've had to kind of deal with is probably fine. And I think it's, it's funny in that way. But it also does, it does mean that, you know, I, I try. It's kind of given me another purpose that, you know, in life, I guess, that I want to kind of work on. And I think it's, it does, does make me think much more about like, I want to do, I want to make sure that in life I can impact positively on people. And then if I can influence people in a positive sense in this space, then I think that would be success to me. I think that if it was to ask like, what was the meaning, what is definitely success to me? I think it probably would be feeling that I've made a genuine impact in that mental health space.

• 1:33:31Speaker 00

  And that other young people, other people won't take their life, will seek help and get help before they're at that point or when they're at that point. I think that would be success for me. And yeah, I think that has, that has changed a lot of that kind of mindset in my head. But I also want to live life a lot more. I've also like, because it's happened, I'm like, I want to go on holiday. I want to enjoy, I love cars. I want to go, I'm going to Formula One this weekend. I want to go and enjoy my hobbies. It's made me want to like, live as an enriched life as I can.

• 1:34:00Steven Bartlett?

  You said that you kind of, your life will always kind of be defined as before and after that incident. And I was, when I was reading about the interviews that you've done in the podcast, you've done following losing your brother. They always gravitate back to this conversation, right? It's almost, and it's become part of one of the things people like me wanna wanna talk to you about and ask you about. So I was sat there wondering, how does that feel when you know that if you go into an interview, go into a podcast, that at some point it's gonna come back to that topic, tragic topic of losing your brother?

• 1:34:33Speaker 00

  Well, so I think it's true, it's that before and after element, isn't it? I don't think I am entirely the same person as I was before. I think in fact, and it makes a lot of sense, if you're gonna experience a massive life-changing event, it's probably going to change you, if it's changed your life, it's gonna change you. I'm still at the core, the same person I always was, but I think I've probably been slightly molded a bit differently. And I think, I don't, I don't think I'm entirely the same. And I don't really know what I mean by that, and I can't really give an answer to in what way am I different? But I'm just not quite the same person, I think, and potentially it's because I have to carry this box, you know?

• 1:35:09Speaker 00

  But yeah, in terms of kind of interviews and things afterwards, talking about it, as odd as this might sound, in many ways it's therapy. I know that might be, might be not the answer you probably expected, but in a way, it's a way of me talking with different people about an experience that has shaped my life and hearing their thoughts on that as well. And I've taken a lot from speaking to people about it. And, and, and I think talking is good. And I think bottling these things up and hiding away wouldn't help. And it's interesting, because I, when he passed away, we took the decision to go public and tell people because, you know, he passed away. I didn't want there to be any confusion, obviously he died of COVID, you know, what's happened, you know? How was he passed away?

• 1:35:49Speaker 00

  I wanted people to understand, no, he died of suicide, he had a mental, he died of a mental health illness. You know, that was very important for us to make that kind of statement. But I knew in that point that the people then would, you know, that we would end up talking about this. But the way I kind of see it is that even on days it's difficult to talk about, if it helps someone else, if someone else is listening and watching this podcast and they go, you know, I'm gonna watch out for the signs in other people, I'm gonna be much more aware of this now, or if I'm struggling, I'm, I'm going to give it this chance, I'm going to speak to someone, I'm gonna go to a professional, I'm gonna speak to my family, talk to my friends, then that to me is worth doing that interview, you know?

• 1:36:27Steven Bartlett?

  The other consequence of speaking about it so often and being known as someone that has, you know, part of your story tragically is that your brother took his own life is you will get, and I know I have a fraction of this, but you will get thousands of DMs of people who are feeling suicidal, who are, you know, in a very, very, very dark place. In fact, I imagine if you opened up your phone now and went on your DMs, it wouldn't take long for us to find a couple of those just at the top of your inbox, right? That is, I mean, that must feel like.

• 1:37:00Speaker 00

  It's heavy. It's heavy. And I think this role has been, I mean, I really enjoy what I do in the youth mental health work. And I think a lot of the work we do is very, very positive, very uplifting, actually. And I think the work in particular on wellbeing is really, really positive. And I want the conversation around mental health to be one about how exciting it is as a space by empowering yourself, giving yourself the tools to live a happy and successful life in whatever definition that is. But of course, there is the other side of it of having that weight of those who are struggling. And, you know, what I try and do is work across, you know, basically in areas and campaigns that can help the majority in these things. And I realise that sadly, I can't sit and help and fix everyone's, that's DMing me. If I tried, I would fail. I'd probably cripple

• 1:37:43Speaker 00

  and cry if I tried to do it, you know. So I try and look at doing the big projects and help people in that way, if that makes sense. But, you know, of course, when I speak to a lot of people, because I go out and speak to young people, I speak to people who are struggling in person, and it is heavy sometimes. But again, I go back to if I feel like I've managed to help them, and that's that, then that really helps. And of course, a lot of the content that I make is around, you know, speaking about out about wellbeing, about mental health. I feel that I'm able to influence people in a positive way. But of course, it is heavy. It is hard. It's not, it's not an easy thing. And I'm sure, and it's the same, anyone, you know, you talk about a lot of emotive subjects as well, particularly around the space, actually, in your podcasts and have them for a long time. So you, of course, get those messages. And it's difficult, isn't it? Because you can't

• 1:38:26Speaker 00

  help everyone, is the truth. You can't, when I say can't help everyone, you can't individually help everyone.

• 1:38:31Steven Bartlett?

  And you also know logically that the best return on your time would be. In that case, making, just in the case of Instagram, I know that the best return on my time, if I want to help people, would be to take that one hour that I could have spent going back and forward with someone in my DMs and make it into something that could reach a million people by making a video, for example.

• 1:38:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's the same, it's the same idea of like A and E, in an A and E and a shift in A and E. And I still, I do it because I really, really love it selfishly, maybe. But if I do a shift in A and E, I can help eleven or twelve people, which is really, and I'm not taking away from that at all, because the change you make in that person's life, literally saving people's lives. Okay. So I don't see it as, it's like, oh, I can help more is better. But if I'm using my platform in the mental health space, particularly in what I'm trying to achieve, I can reach so many more people. And, you know, because in A and E, we're fixing people with problems that we can fix in that moment. It's the idea of A and E, you know, the work I'm doing is really preventative. So I, that's what I've realised, that's why I stepped away more since post pandemic from the A and E work, because I've realised that that is fixing the problems when they've happened. I want

• 1:39:36Speaker 00

  to work on that preventative side and reach as many people as possible. So that's why that's that kind of that value of time.

• 1:39:42Steven Bartlett?

  Of course, makes perfect sense. I actually watched your video on, on this last night where you were announcing that you were making the shift. And I'm sat there thinking, like, just this is what I was thinking. I was thinking, obviously, I was like, there's not a lot of people that have the ability to reach millions a day with a preventative message. So I feel like, and this is not me trying to tell you how to live your life, but I was like, that's obviously the best return on your time is to work on the preventative end, which you've talked about today. Do you think you've got balance in your life?

• 1:40:12Speaker 00

  Um, I think I'm finding it. So probably no binary answer, is a binary answer. I think we're all trying to do that. And

• 1:40:20Steven Bartlett?

  How is your life out of balance?

• 1:40:23Speaker 00

  I think at the moment, particularly coming out of the pandemic, I'm still trying to figure out the workspace stuff. Like, as before, I would in any kind of two days a week, then I'd work from home and doing stuff. But now I'm moved kind of out of the A and E sphere as much, even though I'm going back to do some shifts, I'm not going to be in as much as I was. I'm just trying to find that balance of switching off and switching on. At the working day, you know, especially because so much of my work is across Instagram and stuff. I'm finding that that challenge and people go, well, hang on, this is what you talk about a lot in your book and stuff. It's like, yeah, but being aware of the problem doesn't mean you always got it fixed or it doesn't mean you got it down all the time. Most of the time I'm I'm getting there and I'm pretty good at it. Things like getting out on the walk in the morning, getting my exercise in.

• 1:41:05Speaker 00

  My sleep stuff I'm doing all right. But the thing of switching off the phone and my Instagram particularly, that is the bit I'm still not quite finding the balance on. And as I say, finding that balance between being at work and not being well, but the truth is that's okay. Cause most of us in life, no one has got life down. I don't think there's anyone I've ever met, they've got entirely got their life down. They might have their career down, they might have problems in their family or they're falling out with their girlfriend or whatever.

• 1:41:28Steven Bartlett?

  Talking about me? That sounded like me.

• 1:41:32Speaker 00

  I mean, I mean, everyone has a time, right? Like at any time, something's going too well, you know, something's not, something's gonna happen. So I think it's it's just being honest with yourself and going like, right, you know, at the moment, I'm that's what I'm trying to do. So I'm look actually looking for an office space now at the moment. So I'm going to define my space that I work in, you know, so it's being realizing the things you're that the challenge you have. And actually, like we said earlier, what are the steps you're taking to fix those challenges, to find that balance? One of the things I've done, which has worked really well, is that on the weekends, by and large, and I stick this very strictly. Weekends are mine again now, you know, I worked for almost a whole year throughout the whole pandemic across being on TV, public health, England stuff. Be on Instagram, YouTube, all this stuff. And I was working almost every day and ridiculous hours.

• 1:42:16Speaker 00

  Particularly at full time in A and E and everything else, it was crazy hours, right? And it was only going to lean to me being burnt out, you know, and I think, you know, and that's fine for a short period of time, it's not fine for the long term. So now I've fought back and dragged back my my weekends, mostly, mostly got my weekends back to actually do stuff with my family, my friends. Go to the Formula One, go to Goodwood or go and watch tennis and stuff, you know, very fortunate to be able to do these things. But when I'm old and I look back on my life, I want to remember and look back and go, actually, I did make the most of life. It didn't just work all the time, you know, it's it is work, life balance is those cliched old thing, but it is important to have.

• 1:42:51Steven Bartlett?

  You mentioned something there about you, you doing an indirect at me about my poor relationship with my family and my girlfriend.

• 1:42:57Speaker 00

  It wasn't very that you, it just happened to be a sample.

• 1:43:00Steven Bartlett?

  So I wanna throw that back at you. So in terms of. Your dating situation.

• 1:43:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:06Steven Bartlett?

  Your relationship situation. Um. You posted a photo not so long ago of your um girlfriend.

• 1:43:12Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Ellie.

• 1:43:14Steven Bartlett?

  Ellie. Okay. You're happy. I don't want to say her name, but we'll go there. Um. New, new girlfriend, new relationship?

• 1:43:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I look at the pandemic scenario. I mean, I was working in the hospital and, you know, the work I was doing was going well and all that kind of stuff. Pre-theater, um, losing his life, let's just suppose that part of it. Um. But my relationship suffered because I worked so hard in that sphere. You know, my girlfriend at the time moved back to Bournemouth where her family was. So I was working ridiculous hours, not seeing her at all because of the pandemic restrictions, being separated. And my relationship suffered. So I've been, I've been in that situation and um it ended for that reason. We've been in that relationship for like two or more years. And I think it was quite a serious relationship at the time. And then, you know, the pandemic and my focus on the work probably was resulted in the end of that relationship. So.

• 1:44:01Speaker 00

  That was a big thing. I think part of came back, I work life balance and I go into this new relationship. I think I'm trying to make sure that I'm investing. In both, in all that, in those aspects of my life as well. You know, the family, the friends, the relationships. It's not all about the work or, you know, the campaigns or the things I'm doing. You've got to, again, it's finding that. That balance. But I, you know, I learnt, I learnt from that. And I don't regret it. I, my, my role in that pandemic was to be there.

• 1:44:25Steven Bartlett?

  Your current relationship.

• 1:44:28Speaker 00

  I don't regret choosing to be an A and E and to do what I did in the pandemic because that was my purpose at that moment. That was the right thing for me to do. And sadly, sometimes. Following your purpose has outcomes and things that it affects. And that's the way I see it.

• 1:44:42Steven Bartlett?

  In the, in the, in chapter six of your book, when you're talking about relationships, you, you talk a lot about how to, how we meet each other in this day and age. And you talk about some of the dating apps, et cetera. How did you meet her?

• 1:44:52Speaker 00

  We actually met uh in person.

• 1:44:54Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really?

• 1:44:55Speaker 00

  In the, in the kind of traditional way, like in, when there was the kind of break in the pandemic, you could, could meet people and just at, just at a pub, actually.

• 1:45:02Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:45:03Speaker 00

  Natural, normal meeting place. But obviously, that's changed so much now. I mean, I'm not on the dating apps for the reasons that, you know, I think for obvious reasons. Um. But that has become so much.

• 1:45:13Steven Bartlett?

  Too many inquiries.

• 1:45:17Steven Bartlett?

  I love how you, you have to brush over that.

• 1:45:20Speaker 00

  That is, that is the thing, isn't it? Is that is where people are meeting each other now. And I think that's why in the book I didn't brush over that topic because. We have to accept that people are meeting each other through all these various apps, whatever it might be in the technology and things now, but it's about not forgetting that at the heart of that, that connection, that in person and physical connection that you build with someone needs to be there as well. It can't just all be online. It's like an entry point to meeting people, isn't it? But I think it's an interesting one. Things have changed so much. I mean, are you on the dating apps?

• 1:45:53Steven Bartlett?

  I'm not on the dating apps. No, I couldn't do that.

• 1:45:55Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:45:56Steven Bartlett?

  Unfortunately.

• 1:45:56Speaker 00

  No, no, no.

• 1:45:57Steven Bartlett?

  Not that I'd want to, but I didn't know.

• 1:45:59Speaker 00

  No, but it's changed so much for people. I think the world of dating. I think that one of the things I do worry about, I don't know what you think about this, but I think the world has become so, what's the word, like throwaway, things are like, you can date someone, see you on a date, bump, gone next time. And that I worry about a little bit about that, about people.

• 1:46:16Steven Bartlett?

  Connection.

• 1:46:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. Not real, like even once friendships and stuff, people are just like right in and out. It's like a swipe left, swipe right kind of idea. And I worry about that a little bit.

• 1:46:24Steven Bartlett?

  Why are you hard to date?

• 1:46:27Speaker 00

  Um, I think that over the years that I've been so focused, I think, on my work and the things that I want to do, very driven in that space. I mean, yeah, like there's always a doubt of selfishness, isn't there? When you, when you focus on something to the extent that you have and I have certainly particularly for example in the pandemic, it becomes almost selfish because even if you're doing it for an altruistic means, it becomes, it's becoming something you are doing so intensively that other people are being maybe not being, having the focus that they're expecting, or you're not giving attention to other areas. It's become selfish, doesn't it? And I think that makes it challenging. But I'm getting much better at that. I hope Ellie would say that as well.

• 1:47:08Steven Bartlett?

  Well, we spoke to her and she said.

• 1:47:10Speaker 00

  She actually said.

• 1:47:12Steven Bartlett?

  Ellie, come on out.

• 1:47:14Speaker 00

  He's on his phone all the time. Yeah.

• 1:47:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. What relationship advice would you give me if you've learnt something? You know, I'm single at the moment, trying to fix that situation. But what advice would you give me that you've learnt as being a, you know, a very purpose driven, busy guy? What's the one thing you think, do you know, that's the most important?

• 1:47:30Speaker 00

  I think the first thing is don't try and fix it. I think it's that acceptance. I think I don't think I big believe I don't believe that happiness is like altered whether you're in a relationship or not. Your state of happiness is like, it's an internal thing. Relationships are other people are external. They do add to that, of course. I'm not clearly, you know, be worrying if I didn't think Ellie didn't make my life happy, but you can, you can add to something that's existing. If it's not there in the first place, there's nothing to add to. So, you know, I always think it's, it's focusing, focusing on yourself and your passions and interests and try and meet someone that will genuinely, I'm so cliche, but it is, I think it is really, really true that genuinely adds to you as a person. You know, if you're rubbing up against someone, your, your purposes aren't aligned in some way. There isn't some kind of crossover in your directions in life.

• 1:48:16Speaker 00

  I don't know if that's going to work. You know, so you kind of need someone else that's got millions and millions of.

• 1:48:22Speaker 00

  I'm the same side to build a massive empire of podcasting, whatever. No, I'm joking, but it's sharing common ground, isn't it? It's finding someone that adds to you in some way. But I mean, even with, you know, with, with Elliot now, for example, you know, she recognizes in me when I'm starting to get stressed and working, particularly the mental health work does cause me a lot of stress sometimes, ironically. And she recognizes that and she's really great at helping me step away and saying, do you know what? You've done a lot in that space. Let's step away for a moment and take, take a bit of time. You don't need, you, when do you stop? You know, that quite line, you know, and learning to stop. And she adds in that way, a huge amount, a sense of calm to my life, actually, which is, which is really great. So it's, I do feel that if you're with someone, whether it's a, even if it's a friendship, your friend should surely add to your life in some way. If they're not adding to your life, are they truly your friend?

• 1:49:09Speaker 00

  Very deep thoughts. No, yeah, no, but it's so important. What are your thoughts about it? And what are, what are you looking for in your next girlfriend? This is.

• 1:49:17Speaker 00

  No, it's a good question. So what am I looking for in my, my next girlfriend? I've, I've actually always been pretty clear. Your final girlfriend. Yeah, because I do the podcast. So I always ask these questions and I ask them to a range of guests and I've got, I mean, 10 years ago, I would have told you about hair colors and nonsense like that, right? And I've got more fundamental over the last decade and I'm at the point now where one of, really three things, which is I want them to help me.

• 1:49:40Steven Bartlett?

  And become a better version of myself, purposefully ambiguous. So that could be a more kind person. It could be more spiritually in touch. It could be more successful in my business. But help me become a better person and vice versa.

• 1:49:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:49:53Steven Bartlett?

  The second thing is sexual attraction. Which you write about and you write about the importance of of having those conversations and being open about that in your book. It's just important. I've had everything else and not that, and it doesn't work, right? So and the last one was, I would refer to it as like mental stimulation, which is just being able to connect intellectually around topics. And I think if I can, those are the three things. Everything else is kind of, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I know there's going to be loads of bullshit. You can't, as we talked about earlier, all things come at a cost. So it's really, and that's another point is this really important question, which I I've come to ask myself, which isn't, which used to be, are they perfect? Right?

• 1:50:37Speaker 00

  Unless you'd be looking for the whole of your lifetime.

• 1:50:39Steven Bartlett?

  Unicorn, I'm fucking. But now it's refrained and it's now, is it worth it?

• 1:50:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. First of all, I agree with all your three points entirely, and all of them are required, I think, to be in there for it to kind of work. But yeah, I mean, no one's perfect. We're all in the the beauty of the world is everyone's imperfect. You know, we'll all have things that people would say, Alex, that's a really annoying trait of yours. You know, we're gonna have that, right? It's finding what you, it's finding, is the good worse the things that you maybe don't think are as perfect about that person? And when you found that in someone you've really won, you know, being like, do you know what? I accept their imperfections. They accept my imperfections. But the good and the combined good parts of each of us makes it worthwhile. And I think that is the ultimate goal, isn't it really?

• 1:51:24Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, just to find someone that's worth the bullshit. And I mean, we all have bullshit and this is what really, it's a really introspective thing where I realized that I am so imperfect. So the pursuit of finding someone that is perfect is such a nonsense thing to do when I'm so clearly. Imperfect by whatever definition you wanna use.

• 1:51:42Speaker 00

  We're all like, we're all like jigsaw shapes, aren't we really in our lives and you've kind of got to be able to fit. And it's also the practicality of life. You need to have like careers and it's so difficult in modern life. Like people are opposing careers that don't work together. It's like, there's so many bits of that jigsaw. But I think, again, it comes to even stuff about careers. If the other bits in the sum of the rest equates to that being worth it, then you find a way to make it work. You know, you find, you find a way to, you know, make that relationship grow and work. But you've just got to find that right, find that right person, I think. And I think if you go into it with that mindset, with those three kind of key ideals and things that you're looking for, then yeah. I hopefully won't go too far wrong.

• 1:52:21Steven Bartlett?

  Well, I have to ask you one last question, which is, you know, this is a business podcast at the end of the day. Or at least I say it is, at least that's the category I put it in. And you've started a business prescribed, which is in the wellbeing wellness space. Why you were already busy? What are you doing? And tell me how hard it is.

• 1:52:38Speaker 00

  Well, funny, if it started from a place of, I love bath bombs. Cause I, right. Okay. So I have to like stop myself from doing things. I need to like put myself in a place where I sit down, I relax and unwind. Getting in the bath, you know, put your phone away from the bath. You can't do very much really. You're sat in the bath, right? Put some music on, listen to your podcasts while I occasionally have like the bath. That's not the image you probably want to think. Anyway, I sit in the bath, listen to podcasts, right? So just, it helps me chill out. I chuck a bath bomb in or whatever. And I was doing, I was showing on my stories, I was chucking in the bath bomb and my stories and I chuck the phone away to get in the bath. And people started saying, why didn't you do it yourself? I mean, lush is great, but there's no one in that space. Why didn't you create it? And I thought, I actually do a lot of stuff in my life that's very heavy, it's very stressful. This would be a really exciting business to do. So I kind of started looking into it.

• 1:53:23Speaker 00

  And a few months later, we've, you know, we've got, we're doing a range of bath bombs, which I'm very proud of. Vegan bath bombs, we're trying to, I say environment in mind, because I think sustainability is a word that's very tricky to say that you're truly sustainable. Environment in mind and we're growing our product range, you know, the idea of prescribed is you're prescribing yourself. Time investing in yourself and self-care. And I think that's what I was doing getting into the bath and that's what I want the brand to be. So it's going to be candles, shower products, you know, creams and moisturizers, everything around that self-care space. But it's great. It's booming quick because I think people are so interested in this space. It's what is it? Three billion pound space in the market at the moment, isn't it? It's a huge industry that's

• 1:54:06Speaker 00

  growing and people want to genuinely take care of themselves. And it's just, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's very exciting.

• 1:54:13Steven Bartlett?

  This is your first business?

• 1:54:15Speaker 00

  It's my first business.

• 1:54:16Steven Bartlett?

  Are you CEO?

• 1:54:17Speaker 00

  I'm CEO.

• 1:54:18Steven Bartlett?

  How are you finding that?

• 1:54:20Speaker 00

  It's, it's, it's, it's outside the comfort zone. I mean, it's well outside the comfort zone, but I really enjoy it. I, I, I really enjoy. I've got a great team around me. We've got like a small team, you know, it's not compared to your businesses, you know, but we've got to start somewhere. I've got a small team around me. And what I, what I think is very important, and I say this, not, I've got no right to say this in the business space, but I've learned it in life to be true. Recognize the areas that you are weaker at, recognize what you don't know about and bring people in to, to sort that. So I've got people, I got someone fantastic, a person called Ella, who is amazing at product, products, product design, finding products within the beauty space. She's done an amazing job. We're working with an amazing factory that we're

• 1:55:02Speaker 00

  working on the bath bombs. Got people that understand marketing properly, what people understand the business side of it and how much do things cost? How much does that, you know, what do we price it at? So I've just realized, but what I'm not good at and get people in to come and help me. You know, the bit I understand, I do understand the social media side. So I kind of lead quite a lot on that because I kind of get it. It's just kind of incorporating into my, into my life. But yeah, it's, it's pretty scary. I mean, especially with running into Christmas, we're planning the Christmas. It's a very important thing. We're doing pop-up, we're doing a pop-up shop and stuff like that. I mean, it's all a bit scary and you have to invest in your own business clearly, but it's exciting, right? I mean, I need you to, I need to keep, I need to keep listening to your podcast, but I need you to give me some expert, now that you're doing Dragons Day, I need some expert advice to help me make it into a massive business, you know?

• 1:55:47Steven Bartlett?

  No, it's, it's fascinating and it's amazing that after five months it's been,

• 1:55:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:51Steven Bartlett?

  you've figured out already one of the most important lessons about business, which the best in this country, the best entrepreneurs in this country have also figured out, if you look at Ben Francis, Julian Hearn, who's, you know, the founder of Huell, all of those individuals realized that they weren't either.

• 1:56:08Steven Bartlett?

  It's one of two things, either competent to be the CEO or they didn't want to be.

• 1:56:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:12Steven Bartlett?

  And you, you have to wanna do it.

• 1:56:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:14Steven Bartlett?

  And you have to also think you're capable at doing it. Now, it's the same for me in my business, like there were so many things that I either didn't want to do or didn't feel competent enough in doing. And had I not had that self-awareness and had I let my ego say, no, you have to be the CEO and you have to be involved in everything. There's zero percent chance I would have succeeded. And I'm seeing this tremendous, really positive shift amongst founders.

• 1:56:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:35Steven Bartlett?

  Who are getting out the way.

• 1:56:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:37Steven Bartlett?

  Of their own sort of inexperience. Especially young ones, because when you're young, again, ego comes in.

• 1:56:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:43Steven Bartlett?

  And the other thing that happens, which I talk about in this podcast, and the other critical mistake you make is when you're a new entrepreneur or inexperienced, you don't think you have the right to hire super mega experienced people. Cause you think, why would they wanna come and work here?

• 1:56:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:56Steven Bartlett?

  In our little, you know, social media company or our bath bomb company in this cupboard that we're working out of. Why would they wanna be here? So you make the critical mistake of hiring your mate, Dave.

• 1:57:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:57:06Steven Bartlett?

  Who's who, you know.

• 1:57:08Speaker 00

  I don't have any Davs in the team.

• 1:57:08Steven Bartlett?

  Well, I made that mistake, you know, and, and you do it because of, you know, and, and that again, is a critical fatal mistake. And I, those are probably the two most important things. Business is all about, you know, by definition, the word company means a group of people. That is literally what ends up mattering the most, the group of people. That is, and it took me probably three to four years to figure that out in my journey.

• 1:57:32Speaker 00

  So it's the most important for me now to make sure I got the right team.

• 1:57:35Steven Bartlett?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:57:36Speaker 00

  Moving forward.

• 1:57:36Steven Bartlett?

  It's the, it's the, it's what you're, you are. You aren't every, so think about what you've created. You've created this idea, this bath bomb vegan idea. Where did that come from? What the genius in it, where did it come from? It came from a person. The finance, the way your business is run in terms of its finance, the strategy, the marketing, the investment you raise, the, all of these things, the decisions, they're all gonna come from the people. A business and the product is all a manifestation of people. Apple's a great example of that, Huel's a great example of that. And if you have, and I view it as a starting 11, if you're starting 11, and your starting 11 is going to war with another, with, with lush, right? If your starting 11 does not match up, you will fail.

• 1:58:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:18Steven Bartlett?

  And so, and it took me three years to get to the point where I realized that I am just a recruitment business.

• 1:58:24Steven Bartlett?

  Wow, okay.

• 1:58:25Speaker 00

  I see.

• 1:58:25Steven Bartlett?

  Do you see what I mean?

• 1:58:26Speaker 00

  I think you're probably underplaying what you do.

• 1:58:28Steven Bartlett?

  I will win based on my recruitment. We are a recruitment company. And I remember the day I stood in front of Social Titan and said that, like, if we know the people are the most important thing, why don't we have an internal recruitment team?

• 1:58:38Speaker 00

  That is a really, it's a really interesting, because I kind of, I realised that having the right people was important, but I quite haven't viewed it in that way.

• 1:58:45Steven Bartlett?

  Everything comes from that. Everything comes from that.

• 1:58:48Speaker 00

  It's a very good point.

• 1:58:49Steven Bartlett?

  As you get, as the company gets bigger, your role as a founder is somewhat diminished.

• 1:58:53Speaker 00

  That scares me a little because we are, I mean, we are very, you know, we're still small, but we are, I'd say we're doing very well. We're growing very quickly. We're expanding quickly our ranges, et cetera. That scares me, that growth quite a bit.

• 1:59:04Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:05Speaker 00

  Because then that's, again, being an uncomfortable zone, it's like, well, how do we manage? Who needs to come in and do this? And it's a bit scary.

• 1:59:11Steven Bartlett?

  So you just go have to go find really good people. And at one point in my business, maybe year three or four, we hired a lady called Katie Leeson from MediaCom, who'd been doing this for 15, I don't know, 10 years, whatever. She went and went back to MediaCom and hired all of her friends from MediaCom, who were also like double my age, in some cases, whatever, almost double my age. And they ran the business and I had no problems.

• 1:59:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:35Steven Bartlett?

  They, they, they were so experienced and had done this before.

• 1:59:37Speaker 00

  So you're saying is don't let your ego get in the way, let people come and do their thing.

• 1:59:41Steven Bartlett?

  I flew off to New York, I had no problems. They solved all the problems in my business that I didn't even know were problems. And I can, I can say, well, what if I hadn't made that decision? Well, before then, I hadn't made the decision and my life was hell. Every day was hell, like hell. I'd wake up in the morning, hell. And the thing that cured it was installing a group of people who had done this before and were really, really good. That, to be fair, when they accepted the job, I thought, why do they want to work here?

• 2:00:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:10Steven Bartlett?

  And those people, and they.

• 2:00:11Speaker 00

  And they've loved it and they've grown.

• 2:00:12Steven Bartlett?

  They've done it, they've grown as well and the business is.

• 2:00:15Speaker 00

  It's really interesting to hear you say that because I think we talk about work-life balance, right? I'm looking for an office space. The other thing I've realised is that I need to grow my own team.

• 2:00:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:23Speaker 00

  So I'm actually now growing, not just prescribed as one of the elements. I'm growing my own team that's the kind of Dr Alex brand team. And I think a big part of, I've come to that point and realised I need to let go of certain aspects. Can take over that. They can do this part of it. They can add and allow me to basically free up my time to do the front facing stuff, which you talked about, I think before.

• 2:00:41Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:41Speaker 00

  Um. So it is interesting. I think I'm learning that. It's same time. I think one of the things funny enough that I think has helped. And obviously I know they're going to make mistakes as business. I think I've heard, listened enough to your podcast, say that people make mistakes. But one of the things that's helped is that working as a doctor, you know and accept that you are not a specialist in every area of it. Medicine's huge. We have dermatological, cardiologic, neurosurgeon surgeons, obstetricians. So I'm kind of quite happy for people to go like your specialties that you do that, you do that. I'm kind of happy with that idea.

• 2:01:09Steven Bartlett?

  That's where you've got it.

• 2:01:10Speaker 00

  But the fear, but the, but the thing that I do fear a little bit, I still fear. I worry about letting things go a little bit. It's not for the ear. I just worry about not having sight over things. So I think that's what we're kind of building the, the brand of Dr. Dallas and have people help me allow us to do more. I'm just scared a little bit of letting go of stuff.

• 2:01:26Steven Bartlett?

  And it becomes a lot easier when you pass the buck to trusting, trusted hands. You, you'll always have the fear if you're passing any part of the responsibility of your business to a hand that you don't fully trust. What you want to do, and this is exactly what happened in my business, is I passed it, passed it to hands that were better than me. So I was like, oh, and I always think this, I said this to my peer a few times, like in the company, in like, say the video department or the studio, whatever. The guy is better than me that runs the studio, so I never speak to him. And then Steve Jobs said the same. He said, your job as a CEO is to hire um great people and they tell you what to do. And that, and if, and if you're still, you've still got trust problems in your business and you still aren't, you know, you're concerned about giving up responsibilities.

• 2:02:10Steven Bartlett?

  Then it's because you don't have the right people. And so again, it comes back to that point of that being, it turns out that that's everything and I didn't know it.

• 2:02:16Speaker 00

  That's really useful advice. Well, I'm glad I'm not just attracted to that. I'm glad I've taken all that away.

• 2:02:21Steven Bartlett?

  Well, it took genuinely, it took me years and I had to witness the pain of the opposite.

• 2:02:26Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:02:27Steven Bartlett?

  To realise. And I don't, I just pray you don't. And I.

• 2:02:30Speaker 00

  So choose, I need to sound myself, the right people and trust them.

• 2:02:34Steven Bartlett?

  People, yes, people way beyond the people you think you deserve in your business at this time. And that's what moves it forward. People that you think, why would they go get the global head of marketing of Lush? And your job as CEO is to sell them on the reason why it's better to be in this small, exciting agile startup than that big, boring conglomerate where you're a cog in a wheel. That's the pitch, right?

• 2:02:53Speaker 00

  I'm gonna write that down. Saving the pitch.

• 2:02:56Steven Bartlett?

  But listen, Alex, you know, you've given me tons of your time and reading about yourself, your journey. You know, I don't, I don't watch Love Island, I've got to be honest, but so there's always that stigma when you think about, oh, Love Island, it comes with a bit of a tainted brush. But as I delved further into your journey, I was just so inspired by everything, by how intelligent you are, by your radical empathy for people, which is, again, is quite rare these days. By your being so obsessively purpose driven, which again is super rare, especially for someone that's been on Love Island. You know, you don't have to say anything, I'm throwing stereotyping. And it's just so incredibly inspiring. And this book that you've written, Live Well Every Day, is a perfect, it's perfect because it's so inclusive and it's so actionable.

• 2:03:42Steven Bartlett?

  And it's so, and that key word there is inclusive. When I read it, I felt like this isn't going to create a barrier to entry for anybody. And you're a doctor, so you could have easily just equated and done like word porn. But you made it really accessible and actionable and broken down into key categories. And you're conveying a critically important message to a society that needs to hear it right now. So, thank you. Thank you for all of your work in the NHS, very selfless. And I mean, that in and of itself is, you know, tremendously commendable. And thank you for all of the inspiration because you've certainly inspired me.

• 2:04:11Speaker 00

  Well, thank you so much for having me. It's an honour to be on this podcast and I've learned a lot as well. So, thank you.

• 2:04:15Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing, Alex. Thank you so much.