255. The psychology of misogyny ft. Hannah Ferguson

What does it mean to experience misogyny these days? Is it the typical locker room talk and exclusion, or does it go deeper than that? In today's episode, my guest and I discuss the many dimensions of misogyny, including: Internalised misogyny and sexism from other women The psychology of the 'pick me' girl Dating as a feminist The ethics of cosmetic surgery How to handle misogyny in the workplace, and much more... Hannah Ferguson is the founder of Cheek Media and the author of two best-selling books, Bite Back and Taboo. She also hosts Big Small Talk, a wonderful news podcast. Follow Hannah here: @hannahferguson__ & @cheekmedia.co Buy her new book here: https://www.amazon.com.au/Taboo-Conversations-never-about-relationships-ebook/dp/B0DCF8LNQK PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/755841/person-in-progress-by-jemma-sbeg/ Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Jemma Sbeg?

  These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. Your social media feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max, and so much more. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association breaks it all down. Emmy nominated host Trace Dominguez talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors, to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to really matters. Listen to Health vs. Hype wherever you get your podcasts. No one's journey is the same. That's why Delta Sky Miles moves with you.

• 0:48Jemma Sbeg?

  Whether it's earning miles from coffee runs to flights, to redeeming for vacations your way, or even unlocking exclusive experiences, a Sky Miles membership fits into your lifestyle, letting you do more of what makes you, you. It's more than travel. It's the membership that flies, dines, streams, rides, and arrives with you. Because when you have a membership that's as unique as you are, there's no telling where your journey will take you next. You know that feeling when your skin just needs a tall drink of water? That's what Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour Moisturizer is for. Moisture Surge 100 Hour Moisturizer absorbs instantly and hydrates for 100 hours for plump, glowing skin.

• 1:34Jemma Sbeg?

  That's right, 100 hours. It is a lightweight, oil-free gel cream, safe for sensitive skin. It's allergy-tested and fragrance-free. I use this all the time. It makes my skin feel so fresh and plump and glowy. Even under makeup, I still see an amazing difference. It never leaves my skin oily or tacky. Try Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour today at clinique.com. Feels like Moisture Surge.

• 2:05Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year. And something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop, because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day, why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress, and most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns. So I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop. Hello, everybody.

• 2:50Jemma Sbeg?

  Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of our twenties. Onto today's episode for our 12 days of guests. I want to talk about something that I have really wanted to speak to since the day I started this podcast. I remember this very topic being on my first ever list of topics that I wanted to cover. And it's still been on that list since 2021. But I knew I needed to find the right guest to talk about it. Today, we're finally getting to it. We're going to be tackling a topic that runs very deep, which is sexism or misogyny in our twenties,

• 3:30Jemma Sbeg?

  in our workplaces, in our friendships, in dating, but also our own internalized misogyny and how to deal with that. What are some of the psychological consequences of experiencing misogyny during this decade? How do you put your foot down? How do you stand up for yourself when you don't feel like you have power? What does it mean when other women tear each other down? Why do we criticize each other? There's so many behaviors and beliefs and systems attached to this. But at the end of the day, it is quite a psychological experience. It's rooted in social structures and messaging that has been ingrained in us since a young age. And I'm really excited to explore the psychology behind these patterns and this experience. And also,

• 4:14Jemma Sbeg?

  To welcome on our amazing expert guest, a friend of the show, Hannah Ferguson.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  Friend of the show, I love that. Duh. I am a friend of the show, genuinely.

• 4:24Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, before this, we were just having like a massive, massive chat. Then we were like, wait, we actually have a job to do.

• 4:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that's crazy because we're in the depths right now of each other's personal lives. Let's snap back into reality and get into the questions. I love that energy though.

• 4:36Jemma Sbeg?

  I know, I know. This is like true female bonding. Like we're talking about misogyny and there's like none of it here. So.

• 4:42Speaker 00

  It's not present in the room with us right now.

• 4:43Jemma Sbeg?

  No, I know. Also, it's so nice to have an Australian guest on.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  But I'm so privileged to be here. Thank you.

• 4:49Jemma Sbeg?

  And we're in the same room.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  For once.

• 4:51Jemma Sbeg?

  I know. I think this never happens with a guest, like very, very rarely. Um, can you tell the listeners a little bit about who you are, what you do, if it's like a complete rap sheet? Um, and how you got here?

• 5:04Speaker 00

  So I am the founder and CEO of Cheek Media Co, which is mainly a sort of news commentary platform for left wing opinions through Instagram. So at cheekmedia.co. I'm also the co-host of news and pop culture podcast, Big Small Talk, and I'm the bestselling author of Bite Back. And my new book, Taboo, has just come out as well. And that's really about sex, dating, relationships, and like what it means to be a woman in 2024.

• 5:28Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. And Bite Back, for those of you who have not read that book, incredible. My mum read that book.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Oh, that's really nice.

• 5:34Jemma Sbeg?

  I bought it for her and she was like, this is incredible.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  Oh, I love that.

• 5:38Jemma Sbeg?

  And Bite Back, it's a book about feminism.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is a book about like feminism, media and politics and how we change the systems.

• 5:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, which is literally the perfect segue into what we're talking about today, which is misogyny. And of course you talk about this a lot, both on Cheek, but also on a podcast, in your books. I want to really begin by focusing on misogyny from women to women.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 6:03Jemma Sbeg?

  Because I think that's like the most complex issue that I wrap my head around. It's like, you kind of expect misogyny from men at times, but never from someone perhaps of your same gender who understands your experience. How do you think it kind of looks different? What do we like typically expect from such a new? To look like versus what are the ways that we actually encounter it?

• 6:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, and like for people, and I think it's really important to make the note at the start that misogyny is the hatred of women, of femininity, of of these sort of traits that we consider and associate with women and girls. And I think that needs to be really contrasted against sexism, which is just a singular act.

• 6:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  So misogyny is this deep rooted hatred, right? And when it's experienced towards ourselves, when it's experienced towards other women as women and girls, it's called internalized misogyny.

• 6:55Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Because we are internalizing a system of patriarchy that has conditioned us to see women and girls as less than, less than men. And it's anyone who really, it's it's the gender spectrum, it's people who are not men and how we are treated as less than, as unequal to men. And then how we apply that kind of thinking that's been conditioned into us since birth towards ourselves and other women and girls.

• 7:20Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 7:21Speaker 00

  So it could be, and there's there's so many examples of this, but I would say like the beauty industry and body image standards, the way we feel about ourselves and treat ourselves about our bodies, that's an act of internalized misogyny. The way that we judge other women, and I'm not saying just general judgment, of course, we're going to have natural judgment and criticism for others. But internalized misogyny is really focusing on feminized parts of ourselves and qualities, traits, behaviors that patriarchy shames and oppresses those things in other women that we critique. So maybe the way someone wears their hair, the way someone does their makeup,

• 7:57Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  their body, their opinion on feminism, the way that we treat other women in those senses is internalized misogyny coming out.

• 8:06Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. And I really like how you pointed out that it's it's almost a hatred of things that are typically female.

• 8:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:15Jemma Sbeg?

  So it's not like, oh, I. Hate their body the way that, oh, you know, I'm judging their body the way that you can judge anyone's body. It's, I'm judging their body because they're a woman or because of something about them that seems feminine or seems maybe sexual. So it's like, you know, it's a double standard. That's the word that always is like, is at the heart of any conversation around this. It's, there is one world for women and girls, people who identify as women. And then there is this other world for people who aren't women, who are men.

• 8:45Speaker 00

  The standard is raised, there's a different set of criteria. There's things that you notice every single day and apply criticism to that you would never focus on for men.

• 8:53Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. And it feels so weird when that's coming from another woman.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 8:56Jemma Sbeg?

  Like, it's so strange when you're like, wait, I thought we were meant to be like buddies here.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Oh, my god. And it's, you can, you can feel it in your bones when I'm talking about it. You know, when you go to a, you know, a lunch with your family and your grandma points out

• 9:08Jemma Sbeg?

  Yes.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  that you've put on weight, or that you're eating too much, or that your skirt, or your hair, or something, ripped jeans. Like, there are so many examples of like, different qualities, traits, behaviours, again, that are like, you would never see that happen to your, your brother, your cousin who's male. Like, you can see and feel the difference in the moment about the standard women are held to.

• 9:27Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. Have you ever had any experiences of this? Like, have you ever? It's a rhetorical question.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Do the run sheet, yeah.

• 9:35Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah. Like, what was your reaction there? You know, being torn down by another woman, and obviously you have like an online presence, right? It happens all the time.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Um, was it pity, anger, or like sadness? What's the main emotional reaction for you?

• 9:50Speaker 00

  I feel like there's obviously like a spectrum and like a pattern of behaviour as to how this runs for me. So firstly, it's like rage and I'm offended, right? I'm obviously hurt, I'm wounded. And at first, it's this, I am being unfairly targeted.

• 10:05Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:05Speaker 00

  And something is being pointed out about my appearance, or it feels like it's tied inherently to my identity. Because that's the other thing, women's identity and appearance is so inherently linked. So, so many of these feminized characteristics feel like an attack on your, your personhood, your humanity, right? There's this rage that something so personal is being criticised. Then it turns for me to a particular kind of hurt. And that hurt is when men make comments about my body, they do so because they feel entitled to do that. And they've never had my lived experience. It hurts more from women, fair or not, it hurts more for women for me personally. Because I know that they know what it feels like.

• 10:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, my gosh, right?

• 10:46Speaker 00

  And so it hurts more because you expect understanding and you know empathy is present. You know empathy is possible. And so to have them use it and weaponise it against you feels so deeply wounding. Then it turns to pity for me.

• 11:03Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  Because I realised that at some point in their life, they felt it was so shameful to lean into these parts of themselves. But they instead decided to become and lean into masculine patriarchal tactics and use it against me.

• 11:19Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  And I feel sorry for them that that happened.

• 11:22Jemma Sbeg?

  It's like a full closure circle as well.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:24Jemma Sbeg?

  I like that you kind of finish on pity because like what is more winning than pity? I think about that all the time.

• 11:31Speaker 00

  I guess my problem, though, is when pity doesn't lead to, should I challenge this?

• 11:37Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, that's a good point. I think, I think I don't because I know that, especially like online, I'm like, the systems that have made you this run a lot deeper than what I can handle in an Instagram comment.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 11:50Jemma Sbeg?

  So I'm gonna be pulled in and I'm just gonna feel worse. And people might look at that and actually become even more angry. It's a hard, it's a hard job, isn't it?

• 12:02Speaker 00

  It's circumstantial. It depends on what you think you can do with that certain comment. And often the only reason I'll comment back to someone on Instagram is if I think that my comment can employ like a certain tone and emotion that is not necessarily to convince the person commenting, but for other people watching to know and learn how to articulate how to do that.

• 12:21Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 12:22Speaker 00

  I only ever do it as like, okay, if I'm gonna call this person in, I need to make sure it's in a sense and in a way that I think others could benefit from too, not just this person.

• 12:31Jemma Sbeg?

  See, my approach is like just be so absolutely deliciously kind to them that they then are like, oh, wait, am I the asshole here?

• 12:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:40Jemma Sbeg?

  And I'm like, Actually, this is going to make you really reflect back, hopefully. Also, you can't go anywhere else. Once, I honestly think that kindness or even like complete knowledge or education, it just corners someone and you're like, you can't hurt me anymore. Like, there is, there is nothing more that you can do. I've exited this conversation. I've left my like sparkly fairy dust or I've left my knowledge and I'm not going to respond to this anymore.

• 13:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:04Jemma Sbeg?

  And you're so right. I feel like um when you get comments from men, I'm like, you're gonna hate me no matter what. And one of my friends, Violet, actually, who um has a bit of like an online presence, um I was getting like all these mean comments, maybe like like midway through this year, had like a random video go viral. If you remember, it was like, remember that trans, like, I'm looking for a man in finance?

• 13:28Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 13:28Jemma Sbeg?

  And the video that I posted was like, I'm just looking for a man in therapy. He can be anyone, any size, any eyes. I just want him to be self-aware.

• 13:35Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 13:36Jemma Sbeg?

  And I did not think that that was a controversial thing to be saying. Oh, my God, did I get ripped apart by all these men? And they were like, well, your teeth are terrible. Well, you're fat. Well, you're this, that. Uh, like, you have all these terrible qualities. And then it was like these women being like, yeah, get her. And my friend Violet was like,

• 13:58Jemma Sbeg?

  they're gonna say that to you no matter what you look like, no matter who you are. Because they have learnt that to be a woman, that's an insult. They go done, like, you're already, just the fact of being like, anything you do is an insult. Anything that you are, if there is woman or female or girl before or she or her, is offensive in their eyes.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  But what's ironic is that so many men constantly talk about the need for men's mental health to be prioritised and acknowledged.

• 14:24Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  And yes, your video was in the like meme viral moment. But all you were asking for was, I want men to engage in mental health practices and to have a level of self-awareness and emotional intelligence, which is quite a low bar, an expectation, right? It's nothing to physical appearance, it's purely psychological and wellbeing related.

• 14:40Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  And to have that turned on you is proving the point, one, but also establishing that men's standards for women are nothing to do with our emotional health or what we can bring to the table in our personal lives.

• 14:51Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  All to do. And it's not to say all men, obviously.

• 14:54Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  But it's to say that the response was purely appearance based proves how little therapy that those people have done.

• 15:00Jemma Sbeg?

  Exactly.

• 15:01Speaker 00

  Right.

• 15:01Jemma Sbeg?

  That was one of the main comments was this guy was like, well, then why would I want you? And I was like, you've literally just proved my point.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 15:07Jemma Sbeg?

  Like you just proved it like in a second that you, this is the person who needs this.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:11Jemma Sbeg?

  Like the fact that it's not even a demand. It's like, I'm looking for this. You don't have to be this. I'm looking for this. This is a joke. This is like a viral hook and you're taking it so personally that you've like insulted me. Anyhow, we've gotten completely off track. The people that really interested me though, in that comment section was the women. Was the women who were like, God, that's just like, why would you want such a feminine man?

• 15:35Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 15:35Jemma Sbeg?

  Why would you want someone who like, why would I want a man in therapy? All these things. And that kind of brings me to talking about the pick me girl. Because when you're explaining your kind of your cycle of truth, when you get a hate comment from another woman, it ends in sympathy. And I honestly feel so much sympathy towards pick me girls. And I want to see if you feel the same way. What does that, what does a pick me girl look like to you though?

• 16:01Speaker 00

  A pick me girl sits alongside terms like cool girl or not like other girls. There's a really fantastic additional phrase that was coined by Australian journalist Amy Ramikas, which is a crumb maiden. A crumb maiden being someone who rises up within systems and uses that very system and that power to oppress a group that they're part of.

• 16:24Jemma Sbeg?

  Julie Bishop.

• 16:25Speaker 00

  Perfect.

• 16:26Jemma Sbeg?

  Sorry, just gonna at her. People who aren't Australian won't know who that is.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  Julie Bishop and Pauline Hanson. If you are in, if you are in Australia, if you're not in Australia, have a Google.

• 16:33Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, raise your hands.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, the search goes up.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  But I think that the way to think of a pick me girl, and when we say pick me, it's this woman who wants to be chosen by men. So this is a woman in, in our minds who.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  Engages and prioritizes male attention, male interests, the male gaze, in order to garner attention and approval from men to the exclusion of women.

• 17:04Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  So to distance themselves from groups of girls, to not want to be a girl's girl,

• 17:08Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  in quotations, and someone who, yeah, really pursues systems of patriarchy to find themselves more privileged than other women within that system.

• 17:16Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. And it's honestly very, very interesting because I think once you start noticing it, you're like, oh, sometimes I do that.

• 17:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:24Jemma Sbeg?

  Sometimes, and I can see myself having done that when I was younger a lot.

• 17:27Speaker 00

  Well, I think that, starting from a place of sympathy towards this.

• 17:31Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 17:32Speaker 00

  When you're a teenage girl, I've never met someone who didn't engage in pick me girl behaviour.

• 17:36Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  Because we've got to really step back from this and understand that the idea of a pick me is that they want to be chosen, they want to be loved, they want to be seen to an extent, right, by men. And we exist in a society that teaches women from a very young age that the worst thing they could be is single and child free. So in that context, of course, young girls, especially in our early teen years and as we become adults, really lean into, I need to have a boyfriend, I need to be desirable.

• 18:05Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  And to be seen, to be loved, means in a patriarchal society for women to be beautiful and enticing to men.

• 18:12Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:12Speaker 00

  And that takes a lot of time to, to sort of dismantle, to de-center that need, and it takes a lot of self-awareness and growth.

• 18:20Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. You know, what's really fascinating was, I was talking to one of my friends about this and she's recently come out as lesbian. And I was bringing this up, I was like, I'm gonna go talk to Hannah about pick me girls. Like, do you think that, like, this impacted you despite you never really feeling like any kind of sexual desire towards men? And she was like, yes.

• 18:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:38Jemma Sbeg?

  100%. She was like, even as a teenager, I did all these things because I wanted, and she had boyfriends and she wanted a boyfriend. She's like, I had absolutely no sexual interest in them. But there was a part of me, almost this, like, part of me in my DNA that realized that winning the favor and the approval of men would benefit me, would be powerful for me, would offer me, like, some form of protection. You know, like, if I was chosen, maybe I was not going to be judged as much, maybe I would be protected from scrutiny. So it's really fascinating to recognize that it doesn't just come down to...

• 19:14Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, sex arousal, like romantic attachment. It is actually a level deeper than that psychologically. And it has to do with power and safety and security. And I never thought that I'd find myself like sympathizing with like the pick me girls who were like fricking fifty and sixty. But I'm like, you were raised in an environment and in a society where what was your other option?

• 19:40Speaker 00

  And we still, you know, we exist in a society where I have friends who have chosen to be child free. I have lots of single friends, but we are still kind of charting the course for the first time. Because while women have been choosing to do this for a long time, it's never been the majority. It's never been a third, it's never even been a quarter of women, really.

• 19:55Jemma Sbeg?

  Never been visible as well, as visible.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  So we don't know what it looks like to have entire friendship circles and, you know, contexts where women are invited to really challenge those milestones because women have been taught that the most valuable parts of their lives, that their milestones are things where they give up agency and independence. Marriage, children. Like when you really think about that, the things we are most celebrated and pedestalled for are the things where we revoke our freedom.

• 20:22Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. And it's hard to not buy into that system because and, and this isn't to say that if you want children and if you want to be married, that somehow you're like anti feminist or whatever. It's a choice that like, you know, you make, there are every single choice you make, you give up something.

• 20:38Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 20:38Jemma Sbeg?

  Not just to do with what we're talking about, any choice for anything, like.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  Work, we're giving up time, we're giving up, you know, that's labour, that's a lot of brain space. Like when we think about lots of things that we're doing, it's always making a choice like that.

• 20:50Jemma Sbeg?

  Buying anything, you're giving up the possibility of buying something else with that money. Like, so it's not, it doesn't come from a place of judgment, but I do think that it's very interesting to see that a lot of women are like, oh, maybe that's not what I want. Maybe that's not what I want. And previously. You know, my mother, my grandmother, my ancestors were not given that choice. And the fact that so many people are embracing that shows that maybe there is a deeper desire to not have those things at times that previously it would have been more normalized if we'd let that desire be more present earlier. Yes. Um, and the people who just, who didn't desire it, that would have been fine as well. Like everyone would have just been able to do whatever the fuck they wanted. Whatever that choice was. Um, and I think that's like a really important place that we're getting to.

• 21:35Jemma Sbeg?

  We're gonna take a short break, but when we return, we're to discuss how to unlearn some of our own internalized misogyny, deal with misogyny in the workplace, how to assert ourselves, how to be confident, be outspoken, be loud, ask for what you want. All of that and more after this short break.

• 21:56Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year and something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop, because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day, why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress, and most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns. So I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month of Whoop.

• 22:41Jemma Sbeg?

  This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is. Lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 23:18Jemma Sbeg?

  No two journeys look alike. That's why Sky Miles is designed to move with you wherever life takes you. Fly, it flies with you on new adventures, family getaways, business trips and the moments that matter most. Earn, it earns alongside your everyday life. It dines with you on special nights out, it streams alongside your favourite entertainment, rides through your daily routines and helps turn everyday moments into something more. Redeem, it helps you redeem for what's next. From spontaneous weekend escapes to the trip that you have been dreaming about, to upgrading your next trip to a premium cabin experience, the miles you've earned along the way can help take you further. Access, and it unlocks access to exclusive, one-of-a-kind experiences and opportunities

• 24:03Jemma Sbeg?

  that make membership feel rewarding long before takeoff and long after landing. Because Sky Miles is more than a travel programme, it is a membership that moves with you. Fly farther, earn every day, redeem your way and access more. Because when your membership is as unique as you are, there's no telling where your next journey will take you. These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. And we've all gone down an internet rabbit hole exploring the latest health trends. Your social media feed is packed with wellness advice telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong?

• 24:46Jemma Sbeg?

  That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel and YouTube, talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors, to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 25:25Jemma Sbeg?

  All right, so we're back with Hannah and I have another question for you. Of course, because this is an interview. So that's how that works.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  I'm out now, but I'm just gonna sit here.

• 25:33Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, so I'm just gonna monologue. Um, speaking of monologues, when our internal monologue is really saying, okay, there are certain things I need to do to be accepted in this environment, to be picked, you know, I do want love and I want to get married. Is that gonna cost me giving up certain things? Should I just not be myself? How do we counteract that narrative? That is very much, I think, maybe like rooted in our own internalized misogyny. The narrative that you have to be different or you have to suppress the parts of you that are, you know, female or that are individual in order to fit into like society's box.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  I had this quote a few months ago in an interview on the Imperfects podcast.

• 26:17Jemma Sbeg?

  We love them, they're the best.

• 26:18Speaker 00

  We love them. And the quote was, one of the celebrities interviewed said, the more me I am, the better it goes.

• 26:26Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 26:26Speaker 00

  And I think about that a lot in the context of the way I choose relationships and which work opportunities to pursue. Because I don't want to say to anyone, stop repressing everything, stop compromising. But like, the nature of relationships is that we're going to have conflict, we're going to have compromise, we're going to have boundaries, we're going to have needs and wants. When we're talking about our own internal monologue of like, being the cool girl or, you know, suppressing our femininity or performing in a certain way, we can understand that beauty standards under patriarchy and the male gaze have a very specific idea of what is hot. But the person you actually want to be with and the person that is best for you, if you

• 27:09Speaker 00

  choose, so choose or so seek long-term relationships, partnered, monogamous, whatever that may be. Is the person that sees you as you want to be seen and allow yourself to be seen.

• 27:20Jemma Sbeg?

  Um.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  Because I think that part of my issue, especially in my own personal life of dating, was so for so long, I was so worried, especially running a feminist media company.

• 27:29Jemma Sbeg?

  Kungo Walmart.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Was that every time I told a man, they'd be like, oh, I I find your success hot, but not your personality and your values. Like, I was so worried about the the sort of, are they truly here for the right reasons and actually align with me? And they don't have to align with everything, I think. That's not what we're aiming for either. What we're aiming for is to be so comfortable with ourselves and what we want and who we're looking for in our lives. That we go and actually allow ourselves to seek out that person by being honest with ourselves about what it will take for us to be seen and loved in the way that we want. I know that I engage in a lot of bad relationships because I performed what I thought I was supposed to do, and it never made me feel good.

• 28:11Jemma Sbeg?

  And also just out of a need for validation at times as well.

• 28:14Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 28:15Jemma Sbeg?

  You can have like all the knowledge about misogyny, sexism, all these things, how women are treated, how they've been conditioned to behave. And then still you find yourself being like, but I really, really want this validation.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  Of course, and things like dating apps give us so much instant gratification, right? Over these things that we then feel this need to like fake appear, like we need to fake our personalities, fake our prompts, fit in the mainstream, all of these things, right? But ultimately, that is just serving a narrative that is not going to fulfill you.

• 28:46Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 28:47Speaker 00

  And it's really hard to come to terms with that because what I always say too is healthy relationships are harder. I have found traditionally that when I have dated men and like kind of performed what it means to be like a heterosexual woman in twenty twenty four. I've often found it easy because if they treat me poorly, like ghosting behaviours or like poor conflict management, I'm like, you're the problem, you're emotionally unintelligent. When I've been in feminist relationships that really allowed me to be seen and heard, it turned back on me my own behaviours and issues. When I was met with an emotional equal who challenged me in the way I challenged them.

• 29:23Jemma Sbeg?

  Um.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  So it's it's actually quite hard to recognise when you're not having like the big sparks and the chemical reactions and you're actually in a feminist relationship where you're not playing into that internalised misogyny. Now you're presented with like, oh my God, there's so much I haven't discovered about myself while I've been kind of suppressing and toning down and listening to that internal monologue.

• 29:43Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. And what do they say? What's the happiest group of people on the planet? Single women in their fifties.

• 29:50Speaker 00

  Single women in the fifties. You're absolutely right.

• 29:52Jemma Sbeg?

  And it's the women who have been like, I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 29:56Jemma Sbeg?

  I sought the validation. I had these relationships that, you know, weren't feminist.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 30:03Jemma Sbeg?

  And I'm opting out.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:05Jemma Sbeg?

  I'm opting out. Like, I just, I'm at the stage where I don't need that anymore.

• 30:09Speaker 00

  It's like, it would be Goldberg quote, like, I don't want someone in my house. Like, I don't want a man in my house.

• 30:14Jemma Sbeg?

  I know, it's so clean normally.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:16Jemma Sbeg?

  It's just, ugh. And you do like, and I feel like it's this whole thing where it's like, okay, well, I had kids and I got married.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:23Jemma Sbeg?

  So I did what you expected me to. But now you're like not paying attention to me because I've like aged out of the male gaze. So I can just chill.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 30:31Jemma Sbeg?

  I can just chill and I can just like eat whatever the fuck I want and I can look however I want and I can wear whatever colours and clothes. I don't have to be attractive anymore and I don't need to find a husband and I don't need to be a mother. But you're still a mother, but.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Is it then, like, and this is really the question. Is it when the women who have found themselves in these predicaments, who have sought out relationships, long-term monogamous heterosexual relationships, got married, had the kids, started to age out of that male gaze? And then discovered like, it didn't matter, no matter what effort they put in, it didn't matter anymore, that then become that internalized misogyny megaphone?

• 31:06Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh my God, do you think so? Like, the women who are like.

• 31:09Speaker 00

  Holding on, the gripping.

• 31:11Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  The remains of that feeling.

• 31:13Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 31:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:15Jemma Sbeg?

  And honestly, God, again, the sympathy.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  That's what I mean. It must be awful.

• 31:20Jemma Sbeg?

  It must be so, so hard. And especially if you are still in the environments, like I'm thinking about, um, where I grew up. And I grew up in like Queensland, in Australia, which is like Florida, right? The Florida of Australia.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  I spent six years in Queensland too.

• 31:36Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah. And you grew up in like the fucking Alabama.

• 31:38Speaker 00

  I did, Orange, yes.

• 31:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Orange.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:41Jemma Sbeg?

  We're not gonna get into it.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  No, but we both have these experiences. Yeah.

• 31:44Jemma Sbeg?

  And sometimes I like see people from there who I'm just like, oh my God, I can just see that you're angry and you're angry. Because you don't know who you are and you're angry because you've been buying into the system, but you don't realise that's why you're angry. Like you don't realise that like all of these feelings and this like hatred that you are projecting towards primarily younger women, and I see this with a lot of older women in my like where I grew up. All this anger that you're like projecting towards younger women is actually not like you're not angry at them. Like you're angry that you didn't get that.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:15Jemma Sbeg?

  And you're like, play by the rules because I had to.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:18Jemma Sbeg?

  I had to like do all these things that I'd actually, you know, innately like my deep inner like self, self-concept did not want me to do these things because it wasn't free and it wasn't liberating. But I did them anyway. So now you should have to. And that's where I think it comes from.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  It it is kind of this, we see this with the feminist waves too. We see this regression almost where older women of previous waves resent the choices we now have and challenge that. And it's interesting because all I hope for myself is that when I become an older woman, that I champion the next generation of women.

• 32:50Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  And the changes they want to make because they might be different fights to mine, but they are reflective of the new frontier of what they're seeking next.

• 32:58Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  And it must be hard to be left out of that. If you have two choices though, you can lie down and complain or you can get up and join them.

• 33:04Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah. You know who I think is so great at that? Like I'm just gonna give a shout out to my grandma who's like, oh my God, the truest feminist that ever fucking lived.

• 33:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:13Jemma Sbeg?

  Like she is just so open and curious. And she, you know, she said this to me the other day, she's American. And she had to vote in the recent election and she said, um, whenever I vote, like I choose to vote for the, for the person in who I imagine is doing it the hardest. And I think what, how would they vote? And I vote that way.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  This is exactly right. Use your vote for someone less privileged than yourself.

• 33:40Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah. And she brings that to like her feminist principles as well, where she's like, I don't understand it. I don't know what you're doing, but like, cool, down for that, don't care. Um, her big thing is like, uh, cosmetic surgery.

• 33:53Speaker 00

  It's my big thing too, actually.

• 33:54Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, and she's, and that's like her big thing where it's like, it is the ultimate frontier of like, I think, in my mind, like it's the ultimate frontier of insu- internalized misogyny versus like, freedom of women to do what they want, but then like other insecurities only coming from, it's a whole.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  Well, I think that that's what the pick me conversation is about too, because are we just being, sort of playing into the problem by criticizing other women, but then it comes back to this idea of what choice feminism is, which is the idea which I disagree with, that anything that a woman does is inherently feminist because a woman made that decision.

• 34:29Jemma Sbeg?

  Um.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  But it's about individualism, it's about individualism versus collective action then too. And when we are playing into a system that hates us, we are still feeding, monetizing.

• 34:40Jemma Sbeg?

  Um.

• 34:41Speaker 00

  And, and continuing a vicious cycle and cosmetic procedures is another way.

• 34:45Jemma Sbeg?

  Um.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  Pick me girls play into the male gaze and it's not everyone that gets botox or has cosmetic procedures is a pick me girl. That's not what I'm saying, but we do need to assess at a higher level and step back from our immediate want to remove an insecurity and think, who am I doing this for?

• 35:00Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, and it's, I think that's an exact, like the exact best way to think about it is, all right, this is still your choice and it will always be your choice. But part of the choice is, is like a thought process behind it. With any choice, again, it's fact like the thing we were talking about with like marriage or choosing to be child free. Any choice, like you give up something and interrogating the reason that you choose to do something,

• 35:28Jemma Sbeg?

  I think is important. And I know that like previously it was like makeup.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Um.

• 35:31Jemma Sbeg?

  I think we've all gotten to the point where like, no, no, makeup is self-expression as well as like, a masking of an insecurity and I wonder like where that discussion is gonna go with. Cosmetic surgery, because I honestly don't have an opinion on it. I'm completely stuck on the fence with it.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  I am anti cosmetic surgery, but I love having conversations about this because I'm so willing to change my mind on this. And I think we should all be like that with a range of topics. But one of the conversations I had with a follower of mine when I was posting about this recently, where she said, you actually haven't aged yet. And so it's very easy from you, from a 26 year old's body to say, I'm against engaging in and feeding into the anti aging industry, the beauty industry, when actually you have the privilege of youth still and you don't know how you'll feel about your body and what that means to see it change down the line. I thought that was a fantastic criticism that really made me think about my argument.

• 36:23Jemma Sbeg?

  Wow, I've like never thought of that. I kind of got chills.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's amazing. I don't think I've changed my position, but I've really thought about it. And it's, I'm never applying a judgment to an individual for making the choice. I want us as individuals to come together and critique the system that has made us feel we need to do this.

• 36:39Jemma Sbeg?

  And the other thing that I, I actually saw some, I had a similar conversation with someone offline. And she was like, okay, but don't you understand like being hot makes you powerful? So, and it's true. It's like, it is very, very true. So maybe it's like, uh, you accept, you embrace the evil for the good. I did, I on the fence about it, didn't agree, neither agreed nor disagreed. Thought it was an interesting point. She was like, okay, if I wanna be someone who breaks a glass ceiling, and that's the first step, right? We just wanna break the ceiling, get the hole open so all the other birdies can fly out. Um, that was not a metaphor for women, just, you know, it was a metaphor for an atrium.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  I like that, I like that.

• 37:25Jemma Sbeg?

  Birdies, that's so funny. Anyhow, um, and she was like, okay, so if I wanna be someone who can like walk in a room and like, you know, change policy or change, um,

• 37:37Jemma Sbeg?

  Uh, change like institutions or convince people to donate more to a charity or this or that, or support the arts. Like if I'm hot, I can do that better. And so is that like, I've decided to play into the game for the greater good. And she made this like very interesting argument for it.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  I think it's a compelling argument, but I think it's immediately tarnished in a way by saying that is a woman locking the door behind her because there are other women who do not have the same privilege or baseline.

• 38:12Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  Cause we know that pretty beautiful beauty exists on a spectrum. And as much as I want, we want to say everyone's beautiful, we know that it's still hierarchical and that Western beauty standards mean that it's like thin, white women that benefit, right?

• 38:24Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  And so I would always say like, of course, do what you want to do. I do want people to lean in if they want to wear a certain thing and fashion and makeup are art forms. But when we're talking about being hot and pretty privileged, yes, that's an argument that I think is really interesting to explore. But are you just, again, locking that door and pulling up the ladder from behind you for other women who cannot reach that same height?

• 38:48Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. I'm gonna bring that back to her. Maybe she's listening to this episode. I want to see what she says. All right. I want to finish up by just talking about something that I get asked about a lot from listeners is a lot of my female listeners will be like, I'm, I've just started a new job, got my first big old job. I'm in the corporate environment. I'm in finance. I'm in whatever. How do I assert myself in this male dominated space? Like, how do I say, I deserve to be here without feeling like I'm going to be, I'm thinking about someone that messaged me recently and I'm paraphrasing, but she was basically like, how do I do this? How do I stand out? How do I be myself without feeling like I'm going to be punished for that?

• 39:34Speaker 00

  I think that there's a few elements here. First is communication and I would say keeping records of things. That sounds a bit suspicious and all these things, but I think that in corporate workplaces, I actually used to work for a union and be like in sort of employment law and defending people. So like a lot of my role was protection, self-protection for people. What I mean by this is when you want to prove what you're doing at work and assert your worth and the role you're playing here in this in this ecosystem, keep records of achievements, keep records of well-done projects and tasks, keep records of great emails, keep records of problems you find in the workplace. If you've asserted a policy problem, if you've asserted lacking organisation, if you've asserted

• 40:17Speaker 00

  concerns about a particular employee, like are you someone who's harassing you or something, keep a written record of what's going on is one thing. Two is make sure you're getting paid what you're worth. There is nothing like organising like pay reviews six monthly, talking about metrics, where your hierarchy work, what your dreams and visions are, what your plan is, what you actually are interested in pursuing, your passions in the workplace and where you want to go. I think a lot of this, before we get to the stage of like, how do I assert myself at work, is getting really comfortable knowing what you're after. Because when you know what you're seeking and you have goals and you have a plan and an outline and you know what you're good at and you believe in that, that means that when you are in the workplace, you feel a lot more comfortable

• 41:02Speaker 00

  having tough conversations, whether it be with other employees in conflict, whether it be with management in seeking reviews, performance updates, going further in the workplace. But I think that this can be difficult because we have, we know there's a lot of toxic workplaces around, but knowing your rights at work, knowing what you can and can't do, and knowing which boundaries you want to push, which boundaries you want to respect, and what you want to make change doing is incredibly important. Because I'm not going to say to you like, get in there and go and start a fight or you know, like get in the morning tea and you know, no, no. I think that we need to understand which rules are worth breaking and why. And I think we need to understand what we want from work, because I think it's also about putting in place boundaries like, I don't go home

• 41:46Speaker 00

  after 6pm because I don't want to start setting the boundary that I will do anything to stay back and I work much harder than others. There's this fine balance between kind of emerging out of a girl boss era. So we don't want people killing themselves at work for crumbs and being walked on.

• 42:02Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  I want people to assert their worth in the workplace by getting things done well, asking the right questions, asking and expecting better for themselves, working hard but working smart too.

• 42:13Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm hmm. One way that I do this, and I like what you said about, you know, we're exiting the girl boss era. We are moving on from that. We're all about respecting our self-worth as people who aren't just machines. But in any interaction, anything where I have to assert a boundary, I just imagine the person that I admire most doing that for me. So I think like, um, I'm trying to think about like who I would choose for this example, for like a workplace example. Had a really amazing boss, uh, manager when I was a management consultant. Her name was Heidi and she's just a legend. And sometimes when I'd have to like assert myself and be like, no, I'm going home because it's my grandma's birthday or I'm going home because of X, Y, Z. I would just imagine that she was there instead being like, oh yeah, by the way, Gemma needs to leave.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:58Jemma Sbeg?

  And I would just like picture that, like she was right there with me or I would picture that I was her. And what would she say in that circumstance? What would she do? How would she act? I use this in every situation.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  It reminds me of like my approach to dating last year was be the person you want to date.

• 43:14Jemma Sbeg?

  I like that.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  Applying it to this is like, be the person you'd want to employ.

• 43:18Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 00

  So it doesn't mean working a 14 hour day. You wouldn't want that of your employee because we don't expect that of our employees, right? We would want someone who turns up to work on time or lets us know why, communicates clearly, communicates kindly.

• 43:31Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  Has, you know, brings their personality to work, is respectful and has great conversations and does high quality work and challenges themselves.

• 43:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. Yeah. And that's the other thing is like work does feel like a huge part of your personality, but it's not your entire identity.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  No.

• 43:45Jemma Sbeg?

  And you actually can't be someone who is. A good employee who's going to get ahead if you give everything to your workplace and leave nothing for yourself. So.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  I love that as a self-employed people too. I'm like, I need to take my own advice.

• 43:58Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, no, it doesn't apply to us. Duh.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  Of course, duh. But that's, that's the other thing I would say, and it's, it's to do with all of this. So often our views are more progressive and we would, what would we, what would you say to your friend? But not, what are you not applying to yourself in these circumstances, something to really reflect on too?

• 44:13Jemma Sbeg?

  I do this to my sister all the time. Like my sister's a professional athlete. And I'm always like, no, like stand up for yourself. Like don't let them boss you around, demand more money. And then in my situations, I'm like, meow, meow. I don't think I've ever meowed on the podcast before, but it is how it is. All right, we're gonna wrap up, but I asked this final question of everyone and I just love to hear what they have to say. What is one piece of advice you would have for people in their twenties? Doesn't have to be about what we talked about today.

• 44:43Speaker 00

  This is a bit random. I've actually never given this advice like in a formal way on podcasts. It's usually reserved for my closest friends. And it might sound a bit strange because there's so much more inspirational Pinteresty sort of stuff that I could go for here. But in your relationships, your close relationships, whether it be romantic friendship, whenever someone's going through a hard conflict at work, whatever, with their romantic partner, I always say, what is your threshold at the basement? And like, what I mean is, how low are you willing to go? Because what I've found over the last few years in dating and in friendships and things is when I get upset in a relationship or I'm struggling, often you're being depleted one percent at a time.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  So I think like, oh, you know, they did this last week and they did this this week, but neither of those things feel like an adequate amount to like cause a problem over or start a conflict. And what ends up happening often is you end up 25% depleted and not knowing how you got there. How you're like, all of these one percent items, these tiny little things have built up and it feels ridiculous to bring them up, but I'm not happy.

• 45:49Speaker 00

  And the advice I would give is to find really clearly where your bottom line is in your relationships. Cause for a lot of people, it's like cheating or like a friend like fundamentally betraying you in some like very significant way. And I think we need to improve our boundaries and understanding of ourselves and what we expect from our relationships. So instead of waiting to find the basement, I would say to people, know where your basement is. Because it allows you a sense of self-respect and understanding, and it helps you raise conflict and concerns earlier.

• 46:22Jemma Sbeg?

  That's fabulous advice and no one's given it before.

• 46:25Speaker 00

  Oh, thanks.

• 46:25Jemma Sbeg?

  It's a really, really good one. Know where your basement is. How low you go, limbo, a limbo joke.

• 46:30Speaker 00

  I think it's because often we just find ourselves like, I can't believe I got here because it's been seven minor or medium things.

• 46:35Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  And it's, it's gone past the basement and you don't know how you got there. And I never want people to feel like that.

• 46:41Jemma Sbeg?

  And I'm sure people listening to this, you're probably thinking of your own example. Right now, like in your brain, you're thinking about a friendship or a relationship or a work instance or a neighbor, whatever. That you have not done this for, and now you can do it.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:54Jemma Sbeg?

  So Hannah, thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 46:56Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me.

• 46:57Jemma Sbeg?

  I'm going to link every single place that you can find her in the show description, including her amazing podcast, Big Small Talk. And Big Talk and.

• 47:07Speaker 00

  Soon to be another one.

• 47:09Jemma Sbeg?

  Another one.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  You could probably guess what it's called.

• 47:11Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah. Leave your suggestions in the comments. And also I would really, really tell you that if you like this conversation to follow Chick Media. Because it's incredible. It's where I get so much little tidbits of information from. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure that you give us a five star review, follow along, leave a comment, leave some kind words. Follow us on Instagram at that psychology podcast. If you want to see what new episodes we have coming out, if you want to leave a comment or leave a suggestion or have a discussion about what we talked about in this episode, if you agree, if you disagree, we still love to hear from you. Regardless, and until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself as we enter the holiday season and we will talk very, very soon.

• 48:00Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been approaching my health really differently this year. I used to be really focused on maximizing and doing more. And now I'm just realizing that if I listen to what my body needs, I perform way better. And that's why I am obsessed with my Whoop. Truly, you guys, you know, I'm such a data and information driven person. And I love opening my Whoop app and seeing how my sleep, my stress, my strain is correlating with my mood, with my running performance, with how I'm just feeling day to day. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I do really benefit. And I also just really enjoy knowing more about my body. And Whoop also gives me these actionable personalized insights that have made me more intentional

• 48:46Jemma Sbeg?

  and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise,

• 49:28Jemma Sbeg?

  whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 49:42Jemma Sbeg?

  Hi, this is Jemma Sbeg. Taking care of yourself doesn't have to mean completely changing your routine. Naturewise Vitamin D3 is an easy way to support immune, bone and muscle health every single day. And because quality matters, Naturewise has one of the first NSF certified Vitamin D3 currently on the market. Plus, it's non-GMO, gluten free and third party tested. Visit naturewise.com to explore their Vitamin D3 options and find the one that's right for you. Naturewise.com.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Strawberry from the Steve Harvey Morning Show. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla Sedan with the latest features and tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in, get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.