Helen, the King Maker; Lucifer the Morningstar; Enyo, the Bloody... A New Years Q&A

Liv answers all your burning questions (and some notably less urgent as well!). Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com grouptrip.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  Everybody, listen up.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 1:13Speaker 03

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 2:10Liv Albert?

  Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv, here with the first of potentially more than one, but at this point, just the one,

• 2:24Liv Albert?

  New Year Q and A episode. And I'm going to be totally honest with you guys. Originally, Michaela and I had planned to do this together, and then we just sort of did not coordinate about like how or when that was going to happen, and we're three hours apart. And so now it's Friday morning, and I'm just recording it and then going to immediately post because I'm already late. So that's all to say, Michaela is not here for this Q and A, but we really do hope to be doing more of those. So the more questions that come in, particularly those that link more to the historical stuff that Michaela is better at, we will be answering those together. But honestly, we don't have a ton of questions this time anyway, because despite my begging, you all didn't submit enough. But thank you to those of you who did.

• 3:07Liv Albert?

  This is going to be a great episode, and I hope you will submit more so that we have more questions to answer in the near future. For now, though, this works perfectly, because normally I would love to do more than one Q and A episode to start off the year. But this year, we have a particularly, well, an episode that is going to release on Tuesday. And we can all just go ahead and look at the date on Tuesday, and think about a certain thing that they never want to call an attempted coup. That's kind of what it looked like that happened in a certain country. So Tuesday's episode is going to be about, well, it's with an author who has written a whole ass book about

• 3:53Liv Albert?

  classics and white supremacy. You know, you know, so Tuesday's episode is going to be really good. And then Friday's also, because we're kind of linking it all up. We've got some commentary coming, I guess is what I have to say. And speaking of commentary, I don't know how to catch up with the horrors. So I'm just gonna kind of not talk about the world at large because it's sort of the only way that I am managing. Anyone ever been like so burnt out that they don't know how to find joy and like anything? I'm trying really hard. Um, and this is the first step. This is the first step because I have been

• 4:32Liv Albert?

  avoiding the microphone and like just avoiding my huh, I don't even know. I'm such a fucking mess right now, but I am here and I am answering your questions and I am excited for those questions and my need to answer them to fuel some much needed joy. Ah, um, so let's, let's get started. I didn't mean to start the episode that way, but I don't have anything else in me. Let's get started. Oh, also, I'm gonna be similarly honest. I, I'm not a hundred percent on whether or not I answered this first question. It's like stuck in my head as if I did, but then I also think, no, I didn't because of the timing. So if I am answering this

• 5:15Liv Albert?

  first question twice, apologies. The rest will be new. Um, and again, I have a functioning brain and nervous system for sure. Definitely. This one is from Bree B C who said, "From what I remember from your podcast, retellings and the original source, Helen is depicted as being able to choose her spouse. As we all know, she chooses Menelaus. My question is, is there any sourcing that dives into why she chose Menelaus of all her suitors, especially given she's a rare Greek woman who got such a variety of choice? I won't be offended if or surprised if the answer is they didn't care, or we just don't have the sources, or that information is simply lost to time. I just wanted to ask because it's a detail that has stuck out with me in a couple of retellings and it would be lovely if there happens to be more information."

• 5:59Liv Albert?

  Good question, Bree. Good. Which is why I'm like, have I answered this? Because I just, I love a good Helen question, but I feel like maybe there was something similar. In any case, this is really hard because most of the sourcing we have on those details comes from like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years after the Iliad, right? We know that there was this big sort of competition between these men. We know who was involved, but generally the details are coming from considerably later, which often means that those details are kind of, we have to wonder whether they existed at the time of the Iliad, or whether they are being invented to kind of like retcon the story, right? To understand something that already exists.

• 6:43Liv Albert?

  And so they create this story to sort of understand how it came about. But at the same time, I actually think that almost makes it more interesting because I think what a lot of later Greek writers and mythographers, and generally the cultural mythos of the time had to contend with is some sort of confusing elements of the sort of like, I guess, the royalty system, the lineage, and the sort of marriage structure that exists within the Iliad and the Odyssey, because it doesn't necessarily align with the later customs. And I'm going to forget which of my incredible guests first brought this up,

• 7:26Liv Albert?

  because I feel like I've just talked about it in so many different shapes and forms, so apologies. But the thing that is really interesting about specifically the women, Helen and Penelope, I guess, would be, yeah, Helen and Penelope are the two where we get this sort of, this notion that kingship

• 7:50Liv Albert?

  Even though it's for men is passed down by the women because it we have to there. This is also it's nine in the morning and I'm trying to wake up with these thoughts and questions. Um, but see what's going on here is that like Helen's lineage passes on the kingship of Sparta. And no one can really fully like, I mean, and again, I'm saying no one like I haven't done like super deep dives on the academic research, but at the same time, I know that it is sort of sort of this amorphous question. Because it doesn't really make sense why Helen would be able to marry Menelaus and then Menelaus becomes king of Sparta.

• 8:32Liv Albert?

  Not only because these kinds of kingships are not typically passed down through women, but also because she has brothers like so simultaneously. It's not like there were only daughters. And so this kingship got passed down to a husband. Helen has brothers. She has two brothers and granted they are dead by the time of the Iliad, but she doesn't know that. When we reach Helen in the Iliad, you know, we're 10 years into the Trojan War and she is hoping to see her brothers. The Daisgory, right? Castor and Polydoukas. She's hoping to see them on the battlefield. And so we know that she doesn't know that they are already dead, which means that, you know, when Menelaus became king of Sparta by marrying Helen, those brothers were alive.

• 9:16Liv Albert?

  And so we have to wonder like, okay, well, why did they not become the king of the kings of either of them? They're twins, right? Why did they not become the kings of Sparta? And Sparta has two kings historically, not in the Iliad, though, mind you, which is another thing that they then had to kind of wrestle with culturally, right? Because Sparta very famously has two kings. But again, in the Iliad, this oldest format of something resembling Sparta, there's only one and it's Menelaus, even though he has a brother and his brother is also married to a princess of Sparta. But his brother Agamemnon becomes king of Mycenae and we know that they have some lineage tying themselves to Mycenae.

• 9:57Liv Albert?

  So that kind of makes sense, but then it's still this question of like how Helen gives a kingship to Menelaus. And the same thing, and again, this is not my idea. This is somebody mentioned this to me, but it's really stuck in my head. And I think it just sort of aligns with this question of Helen's mythos because. There's a lot of question marks in the Odyssey about Penelope's status as queen, right? Because so Odysseus has been gone for 20 years, presumed dead. For those 20 years, Penelope has been ostensibly ruling. She, you know, had their son, but he was only like, not even one when Odysseus left. And so like, she has been ruling without a husband,

• 10:40Liv Albert?

  though he's presumed dead. And then now, you know, for the last few years, all of these young men are trying to marry her with the general implication. Like, I don't think it's ever explicit, but the implication is that like, they want to marry her because they want the kingdom of Ithaca. Like, there's not really like, another immediate reason why all of these men who would have been too young to go to the Trojan War, right? So they are at best like Penelope's age, because she also probably would have been a very young woman when the war broke out. Um, you know, so these men are like, at best her age. They are not, they're definitely not going to be much older than her, if at

• 11:21Liv Albert?

  all, unless there's like, really like, specific circumstances, which we don't know. So these are all like, young men who are looking at this woman who is objectively culturally older than who they would normally marry, because a man would normally marry a younger woman. But Penelope is going to be older than these men, just due to the war of it all, because the men of a certain age would all went to Troy, right? And so what is it about this woman that makes these young men want to marry her? Presumably, it's the expectation that they will get this kingship of Ithaca, despite the fact that Telemachus is like, 18, 19, going on 20. He is basically old enough to take over the kingship. But

• 12:05Liv Albert?

  there is sort of, there's no mention, there's no implication, suggestion even, that that will happen. The suggestion, the implication is that Penelope will marry a man and that man will become king. And so we have these two women who seem to be capable of passing down this, like, line of kings matrilineally.

• 12:26Liv Albert?

  But at the same time, we have no explanation for that. We don't have like, you know, in the later Greek cultures, they that wasn't a practice of sorts. And so it's like this question mark of like, okay, is it like a remnant of the Bronze Age when that was possible? Or is there sort of something going on with these mythological women? Like what? What is it? We don't really have an answer for why that would be. But to me, that again, is coming back to this original question, which I recognize I've gone so far from answering. But this question of like, did Helen get to choose her? Her husband? And again, the sourcing we have in any kind of detail comes considerably later. And even then, I don't really think she picks him. I think her dad, I'm pretty sure it's it's more

• 13:11Liv Albert?

  clear that that her father Tendarius, almost forgot, that her father Tendarius gets to pick the husband. And I say that because like, there's a lot of back and forth between him and Odysseus about, you know, Odysseus is kind of like, well, you know, I'll I'll kind of go in and and make a deal around these other suitors, you know, to the he he's sort of suggested to being the one that that tells Tendarius to like, get them all to swear an oath to defend the marriage. But again, that swearing of an oath, I think is more likely a kind of detail added on later to explain why everyone would go to war for this woman, right? Because in the Iliad, like, we don't

• 13:53Liv Albert?

  really get the sense of like, why everyone would go to war with a foreign country just for this one queen? Because like, you know, as we all know very well, like Greece was not one kingdom, right? This is like one small kingdom whose queen was taken to Troy. And so, but why would the entirety of the Greek world go to war over that? And again, it's it's this thing where we are working with a cultural like memory within this poem that exists from a time before anything else from that culture. So then everything else is like a way of of trying to understand that.

• 14:31Liv Albert?

  And so I think that's kind of what is coming, what we're getting at with these stories of the suitors of Helen and, you know, even even Penelope. Is this like later attempt to understand? What was already going on there? And I think that what's most likely is that it's this way for later Greek cultures whose customs were very different from the ones that they see in the cultural touchstone that is Homer. Like their cultures are very different. And so instead, what they're trying to do is understand how that happened, or what those differences are, or just like sort of play around with the details in order

• 15:14Liv Albert?

  to make them fit the culture of, you know, four, 500 years later, when the Iliad is like the text that explains your culture, but also at the same time, like seems to point to a quite different elements culturally, right? So it's just sort of this really convoluted, but incredible. Um, that's, so the answer is really like, I don't really think that she explicitly does get to choose, but I don't think that makes her any less interesting or less impactful because of everything I've just said, right? Because of this sort of idea of the kingship getting passed down through her. Like, there is an implication

• 15:55Liv Albert?

  that queens carry considerably more political weight in the time of Homer than they necessarily did later. And so then, then it's everyone trying to figure out what's going on. And at the same time, even if the bare minimum is that she does get to pick, I think that we are looking at the situation of her being considered this also like most beautiful. And she's a princess. She's a princess of Sparta. She, you know, gets to pass down this line. So even if she gets to choose, it's because of all of those things. That's not to say that women generally didn't get to choose, or ever did, just that there is like minimal evidence. But again, I don't think that like devalues or diminishes the overall importance of someone like Helen or women in general, obviously. But just like, it's an interesting way of looking at her story.

• 16:41Liv Albert?

  You know, with all of this in mind. Okay, that was so rambly and I loved it. Um, and again, thank you all. This is, this is filling me with the lust for life and mythos that I needed. Just had to force myself to actually plug in a microphone because oh, the anxiety is so real. Okay, the next one is coming from Inka. Okay, Inka says, uh, she's a huge fan from Finland, which, um, so cool. Thank you. Also a synchronized skater. Um, and our team theme this season is Scales of Justice, telling the story of Famous or Justitia. I don't know how to pronounce it Latin. I'm the designated myth nerd and also one of the captains on our team. So basically, all questions are usually answered by me. Sadly, I don't know much about Famous besides

• 17:23Liv Albert?

  the usual information. I was thinking if you could maybe do a mini myth about her or point out a good book. Okay, I think that's so cool. Um, I'm obsessed with synchronized skating. Um, so thank you. As a Canadian, I don't do cold weather sports, but I do watch them. Um, I went to hockey just the other night. In any case, okay, so this is going to be one of those times where I give you a really disappointing answer, but Famous is one of these examples where she exists more as a concept than a character. Um, that said, you know, we do know she's meant to be this like Titan, this really early goddess, and I think she's considered one of Zeus's quote unquote first wives, i.e. just like one of the first women he impregnated. And then they say

• 18:07Liv Albert?

  wives a lot, which is lovely, but we don't assume that he actually like formally married anyone before Hera. In any case, Famous is one of those, but she's also often connected with like these earlier notions of an oracle, like a pre Apollonian oracle. Um, and so I believe if I'm not mistaken, there's like a lot of links to her and the, the general site of Delphi, um, as well as this sort of like I don't recall if I'm misremembering that it's like older or not, but there's the um on the site. So Delphi is is all like nestled into a mountainside on Mount Parnassus, right? It's really high up. The view is unfucking believable. Delphi should be bucket list if it's not for you all already.

• 18:54Liv Albert?

  But it uh there's like this, the main site, which is the sanctuary of Apollo, enormous sprawling. And then there's lower, a little bit lower down the mountain is this other site called um the Temple of Athena Purnaya or like this, it's just a sort of a separate sanctuary area. And if I'm not mistaken, famous was heavily linked to that and this like older oracle idea. So I think her. The most interesting thing about her to me is is how she kind of might fit in with this. Not necessarily an earlier mother goddess, but this, the idea of a more primordial, powerful goddess. Um, and just the general idea that women um and goddesses generally used to hold more influence and sway than the gods.

• 19:39Liv Albert?

  We know that from an actual historical perspective, the oracle is older necess- older than Apollo, not older than like the god Apollo, but older than the idea of Apollo controlling oracles and prophecy. And famous, I believe, is the one who's kind of at the heart of that more ancient idea of oracles. Um, and I say all of that and then I'm like famous doesn't really fit that, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. And I should probably just check it. Um, but guess what? It is January 2nd at 9:30 in the morning and I'm just getting all of this um out to you all. So I'm, I'm pretty sure I'm right about that, but it's generally, she just overall though, is one of these goddesses where her.

• 20:22Liv Albert?

  She represents just justice, this idea of law, order, justice. And sort of a um, like I think justice, we need to think about it more as a like ancient cultural concept than what we think of now, right? Like we're talking about like a, a sense of um balance, like that's what the scales mean, right? Balance in the world, in society, in nature, balance. That's what it means to be this level of justice. It's just. Balance and and keeping everything, you know, what, I'm just gonna say balance again. But yeah, that that's kind of where she is coming from because she predates, you know,

• 21:07Liv Albert?

  the the Greek systems of law and order that we know of now. She is sort of just this is coming before those notions, not to say that other cultures didn't have like very explicit, like code of Hammurabi, I know, but the Greeks were coming at it later and famous. You know, I think it's just sort of representing that universal balance, that earthly balance. She's heavily tied to Gaia, to these generally more powerful and later sort of put down goddesses.

• 21:53Liv Albert?

  This episode is brought to you by Quince. You know, the drill. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. I have been speaking into a microphone about Quince for a while now, and I have no complaints. I have a bunch of their stuff. I've got a couple cute sweaters that, I mean, it's it's nearing sweater season, so those will be back in the rotation anytime now. And I have this leather bag that I absolutely love. It's like this braided leather and I use it like basically every day because that's the thing. They have really great basics. Like,

• 22:37Liv Albert?

  they have really great things that you can wear with so many other things. Just the options are endless. And as the weather gets colder, like all the sweaters in my closet, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe from warm, responsibly sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry that adds the perfect finishing touch. And of course, everything at Quince is Fifty to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And if we haven't learned anything in the last 10 years, isn't it just getting rid of the middlemen? You know, making things more affordable. So find the fall pieces you'll reach for

• 23:22Liv Albert?

  most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was me. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's the best way to support the show.

• 23:46Speaker 03

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to build Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 24:33Liv Albert?

  We got another one from Bree. They said, have you considered covering late reception of ancient myths? Also, I know it was a different Bree. Sorry, this is a different Bree who said, some while written well after conversion to Christianity seem to have deeper roots beyond superficial connections, particularly the Brythonic sequel to the Aeneid. Do you remember Byronic? I imagine. Anyway, to the Aeneid and the Frankish claims to the Trojan kingship. So, no.

• 25:00Liv Albert?

  I haven't, but that's not to say that I'm not. I don't know. These are things that the the simple answer is. I am so open to having experts come on and tell me about this stuff, but I am personally not interested in late antiquity. I'm just unfor- I'm just not. I just don't, I don't care about late antiquity. That's not to say it's not valid or interesting or important. I ju- it's not for me. But if if I hear of people, if someone wants to come on and tell me about Frankish claims to Trojan kinship, because I didn't have any idea. Come on over, come on down, or the sequel to the Idiad, yeah. I'm I'm absolutely down to learn that from other people, but it's not something that I care enough to research on my own.

• 25:42Liv Albert?

  I'm just deciding whether to say that word, but that it's just true. I, you know, I joke that anything post-Hellenistic, I'm barely interested. And that's only, only in the way that I want other people to come tell me about it. But when it comes to learning it on my own, my own like special interest. We're talking classical and pre-classical. That's just the way, that's the way we are. That's the way we live.

• 26:03Liv Albert?

  Okay, next up from Alexandria, who said, hello, we met at London and I had the walking stick. Hi, hi, nice to. Hi, I don't remember anything. I was in a fugue state, but hi, thank you. Okay, continue on. It was cool. Anyway, my ADHD autistic brain has got stuck on Dionysus. Relatable. My fave male, Rep God anyway, and his origin story, like, do we think India and Shiva, aren't they similar? I mean, the chaos liberation. We all know as great as the ancient Greeks are, they were all about taking from others and pretending it's theirs to make life easier for people. Right. So Mr. D coming from India seems plausible. I don't even know what my question is. Ha ha. Anyway, ciao. Honestly, I liked this one because while it wasn't a question, it's food for thought. So here's what I kind of

• 26:49Liv Albert?

  think is going on here. Um, I mean,

• 26:53Liv Albert?

  I don't think that Dionysus is coming directly from Indian culture mythos. And here's why. Because we don't have any evidence that the Greeks were in contact with the people of India before Alexander the Great.

• 27:10Liv Albert?

  But that said, I think a lot of later mythos does absolutely come from India. And I say that because while I honestly, I don't know anything about Indian mythology, so I won't pretend that I do, but.

• 27:26Liv Albert?

  Dionysus in later myths goes to India and comes back and is like the eastern god and he like, I don't know that he's riding an elephant, but I believe there's elephants involved. He might be, he might ride a war elephant. Dionysus's ties to India are very strong. They're just quite late. They are post Alexander the Great, just generally Hellenistic period and into later antiquity. And so that doesn't make them more, or like any less valid, but I think it's just a nature of the Dionysus we are looking at now has influence from India, but the Dionysus from, you know, say the classical period, the Dionysus

• 28:05Liv Albert?

  of the playwrights does not have influence from India, if that makes sense. He has influence from like a lot of other eastern, just not quite so far southeast, you know, a lot of West Asia, lot of West Asian influence, a lot of influence from the Levant and North Egypt, you know, North Africa. And so there is like heavily influence, heavily or heavy influence from kind of all over, but definitely if you were talking about a Dionysus from like sort of the totality of Greek mythos, then yes, there are some ties with India,

• 28:46Liv Albert?

  but like they're coming from later and then are being, you know, pulled through in these sort of different teasing ways, you know, so it's just, they're, they're, the chaos, I mean, the chaos, that's the thing, chaos and liberation, that is all coming. It's not, liberation is not like a later concept, but this, like, there is a Dionysus who is also heavily influenced by like the Orphic mythos, which has a lot more chaotic energy, a lot more. Chaotic mythology, just like a lot more explicit chaos. And so I think that is kind of getting pulled in here, too, is that there is this like Dionysus that is also like Zagreus,

• 29:26Liv Albert?

  who is very Orphic and very like different from, from the sort of traditional mythos. And again, Orphic is pretty late, it was popular quite late. So even if it does come from an earlier time, like the, the snowball was snowballing, you know, considerably late. And so I think that then again, we still have these, there is still like something to be said for these connections to India with Dionysus, but it is simultaneously coming from this later time and then being kind of blended in with these earlier forms of Dionysus who did have very heavy influence from West Asia, but not necessarily India specifically, because it was another few hundred

• 30:07Liv Albert?

  years before the Greeks were officially in contact with India. And then you like know it, because the second they've been in contact with India, they're like, have you heard of these elephants, guys? Because let me tell you about elephants. And then suddenly elephants are in all their stories, you know? So it's really fascinating, but it's the same time you're like, we would know if there was very early influence from India, because there would be signs and they would probably be elephantine signs. Next up from Rachel from Olympia, who said, my question is about your Odyssey for kids, because I'm so excited to get it for my little goblin. That's what I call my cat. Do you think not being super fond of children helps you write for them? This one made me laugh. The second it came in through my email, I was like, this is delightful.

• 30:51Liv Albert?

  I've noticed when you talk about this project that you're adamant about not treating the audience like they're not able to handle it just because they're young. You seem to take them more seriously than other more kid focused writers, and I'm interested in your perspective. I respect and appreciate the hell out of it. Yeah, I mean, I hope that it, like, I definitely think that that is part of it. Like, I don't, I don't know how to interact with children, so I won't treat them like children. And so, you know, I have editors to make it all very kid friendly and stuff and tell me when I'm using words that are too big or, because gosh, have I, I have no idea. But yeah, I think the fact that I feel so strongly about

• 31:31Liv Albert?

  The like, I don't even know how, because I don't want to talk about like the accuracy of mythology, because that's so subjective and I don't want to suggest that like, these other versions are not accurate, but it just tends to be like from the stuff I've seen, there just tends to be this like sugar coating of it for kids that then fundamentally changes the story. And that to me is just like disappointing. Like I think we don't have to do that. I think that we can convey these stories as they existed in the ancient world and just how the ancient world, the ancient people understood them, but while making them appropriate for children. Like, I'm really proud to say that my Odyssey

• 32:14Liv Albert?

  does not lose any of the major Odyssey plot points or structure or tragedies. Um, the only, the only like, the only major element that I have consciously cut out is that the Odyssey is like absurdly where we get that really long, um, like side quest into the story of Aphrodite and Ares and like the way when they got caught fucking by Hephaestus and the sun and like all of that stuff, like that I cut out. But otherwise, and like as much as I would love not to, but I mean,

• 32:54Liv Albert?

  it, it, like word count was the main issue, but then also like, okay, well, how do we make that friendly for kids? Because they were like, make it in a net. Um, but no, like that's the only thing I've cut out knowingly or like consciously. Whereas everything else like I've made, you know, kid friendly, shorter, so much shorter. Um, and like we've changed kind of how it's, it's not like explicitly gory necessarily, but like the, the big beats are in there, the, the crimes of Odysseus are in there, the lies of Odysseus are in there. And I don't think that it makes him any less appealing as a character or like interesting or yeah, like up for appreciation. I just think it makes it more true to the ancient world, which is that like, These stories weren't meant to be about these like amazing people who just did amazing

• 33:38Liv Albert?

  things and were amazing and did no wrong. Like, that's not the point, right? And I think that is so interesting, and I don't understand why that is not conveyed to kids more. Like, why do we have to make these people into these like beacons of good? Because I think that fundamentally affects how we see them later in life, and then therefore how we see culture writ large. And like, obviously, from a patriarchal perspective, like putting these men on this modern pedestal that is like entirely invented by this modern mentality of like valorizing dudes for just dude-ing. Like, you know, I just don't think that it benefits

• 34:17Liv Albert?

  anybody. And so I think I'm, I'm at this point, I'm at the like nearing the last edits and I'm so scared. I'm like, I'm so scared. Um, just because I have unhinged levels of anxiety and somehow I think that I'm gonna release this children's book and that like Emily Wilson herself is gonna come and tell me I did a horrible job or something. None of that's gonna happen. Um, but I just think we need to be honest with kids about the ancient world, because the ancient world impacts every single goddamn thing about our life now. And so if we come at it as this like place that never did anything wrong and where the people should be perfectly emulated for all of their heroic

• 35:00Liv Albert?

  acts and for their contributions to quote unquote, "Western society", like, I just don't, that doesn't benefit anyone. It only benefits Western supremacy and it's pointless and stupid. And so I just wanted to set about, like, not doing that. And in, in the process, I am really confident that I have written a, an adaptation of The Odyssey that is true to the Homeric texts, true to the ancient cultures and sources, and also like honest and fun for kids and beautifully illustrated.

• 35:41Liv Albert?

  And I'm just, oh, I'm so excited, I'm so scared, I'm so excited, I'm so scared, I guess, is the story there. But I really do think it's gonna be really good. It's just scary.

• 35:56Liv Albert?

  Okay, next from Amelia, who says, "I hope you haven't been asked this because I'm only in February 2021, but have you seen the magicians? I was wondering what your thoughts are on it. They refer to Dionysus by his Roman name Bacchus, but they refer to Iris as her Greek name. Do you have any comments on this?" I'm gonna be disappointing. I, I've not read, I've not seen the magicians. Um, I just wanted to make sure I read this question out because I want, because I want to correct something that I know I did years ago. This is all my fault. The name Bacchus is not explicitly Roman. The name Bacchus comes very much from Greek as well.

• 36:36Liv Albert?

  Um, there are obviously some gods who have very explicitly Roman names which don't have connections to Greek, Minerva being a really big one. Um, but Bacchus is not one. Bacchus is definitely ancient Greek as well, as is Pluto for Hades. Um, and so that's all just to say that like, if they are saying Iris, who also, I don't know, this made me think like, I don't know if Iris has a Roman equivalent. I don't think so. Like there's a messenger, but it's, unless there's a woman, I don't know. Anyway, I'm not gonna look it up. Um, but if any Romanists want to tell me about the Roman version of Iris, you go ahead and let me know.

• 37:15Liv Albert?

  But this is all to say that that's not really like a, yeah, it's not really like mixing anything up by saying Bacchus and Iris. It's just two Greek forms. Um, Dionysus has like a bazillion names that are all very Greek. He only has one off the top of my head that is explicitly Roman and does not appear, is not from Greek at all, and that's Libe. So if you say Libe, like I, L I B E R, that's gonna be like heck and Roman. It means free. It's very Roman. It tends to like represent this like kind of very different, like a much less exciting version of Dionysus. So I'm not a big fan of it, but Dionysus, Bacchus, Brimos, no, not Brimos, uh, something similar.

• 37:56Liv Albert?

  Anyway, there are literally so many names. There are so many names, um, for Dionysus. It's really hard to keep track. It's kind of his thing, but that's all to say Bacchus is also very Greek.

• 38:09Liv Albert?

  Next up, Chantel with another simple one, which I'm excited to be asked about. Chantel says, "I really love your podcast and I really, uh, it really helps get started with my day." Thank you. Keep going. "Yesterday I discovered that there exists the goddess of war and bloodshed named Ennio. Could you talk about her?" Yes and no. Ennio is a great example, once again, of a goddess who is more of a concept than a character. But also, I believe Ennio is also sometimes one of the gray eye? Yeah, the, um, Pemfredo, Ennio. What's the last one? Anyway, Ennio, yes, does me, uh, it does represent war and bloodshed.

• 38:54Liv Albert?

  She, um, she's not, she doesn't appear much at all, honestly, because she's, she really is more of this, like, a concept, um, of this notion. She is somewhat similar to Eris in that way, you know, right? Strife, um, but at the same time, Eris at least has the story of the golden apple and the Trojan War and the Judgment of Paris and all of that. Whereas Ennio really doesn't. If I'm not mistaken, which I don't believe I am, there are no stories that like feature Ennio as like a main character. She's probably referenced here or there, but even still, like, she represents this really specific part of war and bloodshed.

• 39:35Liv Albert?

  And it's like the bloodshed, like the, just the like real violence of it. Because Aerys specifically represents the violence of war and, and that kind of concept. But Ennio is like specific. So that's all to say, yes, there is a goddess of war and bloodshed. Her name is Ennio. She does not really appear anywhere. The name Ennio is also sometimes one of the gray eye, who are like sisters of the Gorgons. You know, they have, they share the eye and the tooth, because we love that for them. So sometimes it's one of her names as well, which I imagine they're all very connected with the general framing of this idea of like war and bloodshed. Um, but that's what it, I do think that if you're just generally interested in this concept, the Romans

• 40:17Liv Albert?

  take that and run with it. Um, their goddess of war and bloodshed is called Bologna. And like, Belos, Bologna, like that means war, basically, like Bellicose is, like, all of these things are coming from this idea of like war and bloodshed. So if you're interested in this, I would go look into Bologna, because she's going to be more explicit, because the Romans were more interested in like those kind of elements in there. Storytelling, but also in like just in their culture. And there's a lot of like different reasons about that, right? The Greeks are looking from a little bit more of an ancient perspective in this case. And so they're, they're really looking more conceptually, whereas the Romans are from a period and their, their writing and things are from this period where just things are a bit more literal and, and specific. And so you get more examples of this. Bologna is like a character.

• 41:03Liv Albert?

  So yeah, if you're curious, Bologna is like an equivalent, but she's definitely more in the Roman than Ennio, who is just kind of this concept who's got a cool name.

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• 42:45Liv Albert?

  Okay, this one's from Connor, who says, "I absolutely love the podcast. Thank you. Your political commentary and all the work that you do," oh, God, thank you especially. "As an environmental scientist, I would love to hear your thoughts on how ethylene gas, which naturally occurred in their chambers, impacted the ancient oracles. I saw that one modern research team put a participant in a shed and filled it with ethylene to see if she would start giving prophecies. Knowing that the local geography might have impacted the ancient religion is fascinating to me, and I want to hear your thoughts on this story." Okay, it's a good question. I honestly don't... So, the only thing I know about the ethylene gas theory about the oracle specifically is that it is related to Delphi only, and

• 43:25Liv Albert?

  that it is not certain. Because Delphi, Delphi is so, I mean, as I said earlier, which is well-placed, um, Delphi, side of a mountain. Greece, very tectonically active. Parnassus, very specifically, very, very, very tectonically active, right? And so, yes, ethylene gas is in the area, definitely now, or in like, the times when they were able to test it, it's potentially around. That said, because of all of the tectonic shifts and such, it's my understanding of this theory that is that they're not 100%

• 44:05Liv Albert?

  sure that the ethylene gas was there at the time, because this is something where the environment has changed so much in the intervening like, nearly 2,000 years, um, that it leaves a lot of questions, right? And so, because the thing about Delphi that is also one of its, one of the things that I think everyone should know, and so I'll say it for what is probably the fifth time, but Delphi, we only rediscovered Delphi in the last century or so, like...

• 44:41Liv Albert?

  I mean, at the earliest, it was like very late 19th century. Um, and the way that it was rediscovered required the them to move an entire town. Because Delphi, um, it had like fallen into disuse around the time when Christianity was taking over. Thanks for ruining yet another thing. Um, and so around that time, a bunch of earthquakes happened as well. And essentially, you know, it was again, I think it was like stopped being used in like probably third or fourth, maybe fifth century CE. And then earthquakes, earthquakes are happening.

• 45:23Liv Albert?

  And so in the like 1500 years between then, when it stopped being, you know, used. And when it was rediscovered, earth enough earthquakes happened that the town was completely covered by rockfalls. Completely, completely covered. And to the point where another town had been built on top of the ruins of Delphi. They had no idea that the ruins of Delphi were below. Um, and so when it was found, they relocated an entire town and they dug all of this stuff up. And so that's just all to say, like, we can't be certain that ethylene gas was

• 46:00Liv Albert?

  actually seeping out when the Pythia were actually predicting prophecies, right? Um, and so I think it is a good idea, but I also think, I don't know, I don't love it as an idea. Because I mean, I think that there was more to it. I think that there was more to the Pythia, the oracles, all of this than a bit of gas, like unintentioned, unintentional drugs. I think it's very possible, but I also think. I don't know. I don't know. I just think I think it's more interesting, but that's all to say.

• 46:42Liv Albert?

  I think it's a really interesting theory. I haven't thought too much about it. Um, I've heard a lot of like back and forth about just how convincing this theory is. Um, and I'm just, I haven't done, I guess enough, uh, research, but I do think it's generally really interesting. And at the very least, it led me to tell you all a bit more about Delphi itself, because I think that is so interesting. Like, I think it's more likely that there's like, I mean, maybe some gas as well, but I also just think that this site and Parnassus in general and the area was so tectonically active, so, you know, sort of

• 47:22Liv Albert?

  in a world of its own, um, both, you know, the, the, uh, altitude and the location and the like view. Um, also Parnassus is like heavy. If I think it's limestone, whatever it is, it's like red. Um, and so Parnassus is just sort of like a world of its own. And I think that maybe ethylene gas played some kind of role, but I also just think that there's so much coming from the general environment, the the like nature of that place that maybe it's all coming together to, to turn into these

• 48:04Liv Albert?

  prophecies of whatever kind, but either way, like, I think it's one element of what is all around, just like the most fascinating ancient quote unquote mystery. I don't think we have to think about it as a mystery. I just think it's generally like, oh, I'd like to learn everything, but the science stuff escapes me. I'll be honest.

• 48:24Liv Albert?

  Okay. I only have a couple more questions left. Um, I, if I'm not wrong, I only got like one voice question. Um, and so what I'm going to do is ask you all to ask a bunch more questions, whether they are in text form or voice. And I'm going to do another of these episodes in just like a week or two, and I'll put the voice ones in there. Hopefully I'll have, um, more, but logistically right now, all the text ones are right in front of me. So we're doing those and the voices are going to come next time. Sorry, but also everyone give me more of them. Okay, this question is from Henry who says, "Hi Liv, I submitted a question a while ago, but I'm not sure it came through. But in case it didn't, I'd like to reiterate my gratitude for your podcast. I've listened to it through my last years of high school and just finished a few months ago, and I'm going into my third year of uni, and you've taught me so much.

• 49:09Liv Albert?

  I've been a comforting voice in midst of tough times. Thank you."

• 49:13Liv Albert?

  Okay, so many nice things there. I'm sort of jumping through this message, but the question is, "Have you watched Immortals 2010? I found it to be a pretty awful adaptation of myth. I think it was attaching Theseus to the wrong story. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. Secondly, what are the meanings of some of the names in reading episodes? I'm glad you asked this. I've heard Lucifer mentioned a few times. Would you be able to explain who this is and if it has any relation to the Christian Lucifer? Thirdly, I'm going to Greece for the first time. Any travel tips for a young person solo traveling?

• 49:46Liv Albert?

  Also, are you able to give us a little explanatory tour of ancient Greece with the names they mention in epics? Sorry for so many questions. No, not too many questions. Thank you. Lots of love from Australia was the ending, and I appreciate that." Okay, no, this is a good question. I'm gonna try to answer the three little bits pretty quickly. So Immortals, Immortals is terrible. Immortals is hot garbage in a way that like, I don't think that I can properly put it into words. Immortals as a movie resembles Greek mythology in, I would say, okay, so it's been a long time since I've seen it, but I would say there's one way that it actually resembles any Greek mythology, and that is the names.

• 50:32Liv Albert?

  I think that's it. If I'm not wrong, there's like, almost no, I feel like maybe there's some like, Perseus in there, maybe? I don't know, I forget all the plot, honestly, because it's just absolute hot garbage. All I remember is that there's like, there was this moment where there's like all this fucking rebar, and you're like, okay, cool. So like, Hephaestus is really like upped his game? What do we mean? Are we building a skyscraper? Where's the concrete? No, it was just, that's all I remember. But also that it is in name, the story of Theseus, but in detail, not anything at all. It's garbage, hot garbage. Okay, that's it. Um, okay, the second question Lucifer. No, I'm really glad you asked. This is one of those things of when I'm reading these, there's so many times where I'm like, oh, I wish I could explain this, but like it's in a reading episode and I don't want to just like go on and on and on.

• 51:14Liv Albert?

  So I'm glad you asked because if anyone ever has questions like this, I would really love to answer because there's all a lot of really interesting things and Lucifer is one thing that I have thought about a lot of times and thought, oh, how could I easily explain this? But like, just contextually, it's never worked out. So, thank you. Lucifer is a star. It's just a star. Or, okay, having actually looked it up, um, after I said that, it is a planet that looks like a star. No, so the origin of the word Lucifer, very specifically as that word, it's Latin, um, it means light bringer. And it is just a planet Venus, but like as a character god thing.

• 51:53Liv Albert?

  It's a bright star. Um, and so I think, okay, what, I don't know Christian shit, which is for the best, frankly. But I think it's coming from eventually getting turned into Lucifer of like fallen angel hell type situation. Um, because of the whole, like, it's a star in the sky, maybe. I don't know. Uh, it's

• 52:17Liv Albert?

  basically, it's a Latin word that predates Christianity and it it just refers to like the star that is the planet Venus. Which also kind of confuses me because I feel like it's always been associated with like a goddess, but I don't know. The Romans are weird. Um. But essentially, I think when it's used in readings, it's maybe just referring to like a the bright star or something like that, but it's, yeah, like completely. Like, I wouldn't say unrelated to the Christian Lucifer, because the Christian Lucifer is based on the more ancient word of the Roman Lucifer, but the Christian one is like, has all of those overtones, undertones, whatever tones.

• 52:58Liv Albert?

  Um, and this was just a star. But I thought about it. I thought about it every time I've had to say that word. So thank you for asking. Oh, another one, actually, because I've just thought of this. Um, and I've, in case people are curious about this, but um, Vulcan, so like Hephaestus, Hephaestus, the Greek, you know, the Roman similar god, very similar, but different god is called Vulcan. But he's also called Mulsiber, which always makes me think of something Christian, and I don't know what it sounds like. It's a demon or something, but Mulsiber. So if you ever hear me say Mulsiber, that's also Hephaestus. I've sometimes tried to like, teach my brain to say Vulcan instead because it's just confusing. And similarly, Ares in the Thebaidet episode, Ares was regularly called,

• 53:43Liv Albert?

  typically in Latin and Roman, um, we would call Mars, but a lot in the Thebaidet, he was called Mavors, which is like, I guess a more ancient other Roman name for the god that in the Greek we then call Ares. That's not to say that the Roman, the gods were the same, as we all know. But in the case of the reading episodes, typically it's like a Roman version of a Greek story and all of that. But that's all to say a Mulsiber, Hephaestus, Lucifer, a star, the morning star. Um, and, and, and Mavors is Ares or Mars. That's not even like the half of it too, because the readings so often like, refer to people by their, the grandfather or their grandfather's name.

• 54:26Liv Albert?

  And so I so often I'm like, oh gosh, it must be so confusing. But it, everyone seems to love them all the same. So I'm always perpetually thrilled, but that's all to say, like, if people have more questions, I'm really happy to answer them.

• 54:39Liv Albert?

  Okay, we have only two more. This one's from Brooke, who says, hi, super big fan of you and your podcast. My question is related to your book, Nectar of the Gods, which my fiancee got me for Christmas. Oh, thank you. I know this was written several years ago now, but is there a reason there's no Hecate inspired cocktail? Also, if you had to create one, what would some key ingredients or flavor profiles be? So much love for what you do and how you do it. Thank you for everything you've created to teach the world and me about Greek myth. From a delightfully, delightfully feminist POV. Thank you. I need to read more of that stuff and actually take it in and remind myself that I'm not a failure at everything. Um, okay, so it's a great question. Uh, yeah, I don't really know why I didn't do Hecate at the time.

• 55:22Liv Albert?

  It was so long ago and honestly with that book, like, It was very sort of like rushed and the way it started was they were like, can you give us a li- a list of titles? So the very first thing I did is just like brainstorm quippy cocktail titles. And so it ended up being that like, I feel like I ended up missing a lot of characters that I would have liked to feature purely because it was more about trying to come up with like a quippy name that would like then work for a cocktail, you know, it was such a weirdly specific book. Um, and I absolutely love it, but also like, it was just bizarre. So, no, I don't know why I didn't, but I think it was just a matter of me being like, okay, what's like a clever cocktail?

• 56:04Liv Albert?

  And how can I make it like, you know, mythic? Um, and, and Hecate I guess didn't come through, but it is kind of disappointing. I also though, did have to rein myself in from too many like blood themed cocktails. Because other problem was like having too many things that would be like really similar. And I joked at the time, like a real cocktail book from of Greek myth would be just like wine. Um, so you know, it was just a matter of like what I could come up with something. And I guess Hecate didn't come to me at the time, but it is a bit disappointing. I think now maybe she'd have like a, um, I'm thinking maybe like a mezcal. Uh, like I want like something like smoky and also I love Hecate and I love tequila. So that's my answer.

• 56:44Liv Albert?

  Um, yeah, like something mezcal-y and smoky and like warm and angry and strong. That, that's what I got.

• 56:56Liv Albert?

  Okay. And last one, which I think is a delightful way to end it and actually really appropriate for

• 57:05Liv Albert?

  Hispanic traditions for New Year's, I think, if I'm not wrong. Anyway, this one's from Marcos. And he says, hi Liv, I listened to your episodes with Ellen Zachos and I've been wondering something. During the section about pomegranate seed, Ellen said something about fruits with lots of seeds being a fertility inducer. Do you think this connects with the fear men had of the main ads? Grapes typically have two to six seeds per grape, according to a very rudimentary Google search.

• 57:31Liv Albert?

  Thank you for your very rudimentary Google search because that is so interesting. And yeah, I fucking bet. I don't know. I mean, they were just so afraid of women, but I think they were like maybe the fertility stuff, but also the way that it, the drunkenness, right? Made women scary because they were like, you know, un-unpredictable, I guess. And they could like tear you to shreds with their bare hands. If they get a little too drunk, you never know. But no, I think that that's like a super likely connection to be made. And I love that I now know how many grapes are per grape, which that's a lot. So that, that checks out, like a very seedy. The thing about pomegranates too is like, they're so visibly seedy. But grapes, like you can really, you can find them in there.

• 58:14Liv Albert?

  I feel like also we are also used to seedless grapes now, but like, they would have been really obvious and like big back then. No one's breeding out the seeds. I like it. I like any reason to speculate on why the men were so afraid of the women and made our lives what they are today. Thanks.

• 58:32Liv Albert?

  But at least we can figure it out. Um, that was a really great way to end it. Thank you, Marcos. That was just a delight. Uh, thank you all so much for listening to this very rambly Q and A on this very cold first Friday of 2026. I feel like I blinked and 2025 just happened to me. I don't fully know if I experienced it.

• 59:04Liv Albert?

  I think I have autistic burnout, but I've never been diagnosed and I just don't know how to exist in this brain. Um, so I'm working on it and thanks for coming along for the ride, I guess. I really hope to be doing more new episodes soon. The book is going to be, you know, finished in a few weeks. Um, I'm afraid of that, but it will be. Um, and so hopefully I'll be back. I really want to return to like the love and joy of this show and my work because I still love the topic and the work so much, but I just like. I don't, I don't know who or what I am at this moment in time.

• 59:48Liv Albert?

  It's fun. Um, oh, late-stage capitalism, am I right?

• 59:55Liv Albert?

  Doing great, doing great things, doing great things. Let's talk about this movie is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Let's get the hell out of here. Michaela Panglish is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, which will exist in more forms soon because of things. Who knows? Who knows? Select music by Luke Chaos and, uh, listen on, uh, Apple or Spotify or wherever you podcast. Or if you want ad-free episodes and so much more, check out the Oracle Edition, uh, on Patreon, patreon.com/MythsBaby. Yeah, we have ad-free, we have lots of fun bonus stuff and we're, Michaela's doing like, on Wednesdays, we read, we read books.

• 1:00:36Liv Albert?

  It's so fun. We're having a great time over on Patreon and mostly loving life ad-free. So join us if you feel like it. Otherwise, thank you for listening here or wherever and, um, I'm gonna stop saying words now because I don't think they mean anything anymore. I am Liv and I love this shit and I really, really love you all for these questions because they really helped, just in general. Thanks.

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