What Is Consciousness And Can Machines Achieve It — With Anil Seth

Anil Seth is a professor of cognitive and computational neuroscience at the University of Sussex and author of Being You. He joins Big Technology Podcast for a discussion of AI sentience grounded in science and research. In this conversation, we discuss the definition of consciousness, what it would take for AI to achieve it, and whether researchers should keep trying to get there. Stay tuned for the second half, where we cover AI avatars in the metaverse and, yes, simulation theory. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 0:43Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 1:03Speaker 01

  LinkedIn Presents.

• 1:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  Welcome to the Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool-headed nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond. Now, if you've been listening to this show over the past couple of months, you know we've talked a lot about the power of machines to potentially think for themselves. We had Blake Lemoine, the Google engineer, who said that its Lambda Chatbot was sentient on a few weeks back. And then soon after that, we had Gary Marcus, who came on and talked about how some of Blake's assertions, in his opinion, were somewhat ridiculous. All throughout these conversations, we've talked about consciousness as sort of a given, which was obviously an oversight. We really need to define what consciousness is before we can ask whether machines are capable of it. And that's what we're going to do today.

• 2:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  We're going to have the leading researcher on cognition and computational neuroscience in the world. Anil Seth is here with us. He's a professor of cognitive and computational neuroscience at the University of Sussex, the author of Being You. He and I have spoken about this recently, and I'm so excited to bring you this conversation. Anil, welcome to the show.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Hi, Alex. It's good to speak to you again. Yeah, it's just been a few days since we were speaking in Amsterdam.

• 2:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's right. And I knew after that conversation that we had to do this long form. So, you know, let's not start slow. There's a temptation, I think, to build up and then sort of ask the big question in these type of conversations. But let's start with the big question and we unpack it as we go. So can machines be conscious and how do we know if they are?

• 2:48Speaker 02

  That's two big questions. The first big question, of course, it depends on what you mean by machine. We are machines. We are biological machines, very, very complicated ones. And, and we are conscious. I'm taking that as read. We have conscious experiences. If by machine we mean something maybe made of silicon, maybe a bit like computers as we know them now, or might be in a few years, then I'm very skeptical. I'm very skeptical. I can't rule it out. And I think having a strong opinion that it's either impossible or somehow inevitable are both unsupportable assumptions. I think we have to be carefully agnostic.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  The only systems that we know of in nature that have conscious experiences are living systems. And computers and AI as we have it now and as we will have it in the near future is not living. It's very different from a biological organism. There are many things, I think, standing in the way of making the claim that machines like computers, like robots, can be conscious. The question of how we would know is even trickier perhaps, if that's possible. And, and the problem is that this is tricky not just for machines. It's tricky in general.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  We can only be 100% confident that I am conscious. I can only be 100% confident that I am conscious. Even believing that you are conscious is a little bit of an inference. Now, I'm very, very confident in that too, pretty much 100%. But the further you go away, we only ever have direct knowledge of our own experience. And the further we go away from That basis, the less stable these inferences become. And many of us have quite differing intuitions when it comes to other non-human animals. Cats, dogs, other mammals, primates. Many people would agree have conscious experiences of some sort or another. But what about insects? What about spiders? What about fish? What about octopuses?

• 4:58Speaker 02

  What about bacteria? Things get very, very tricky there. So this is not a simple question because we cannot observe consciousness directly. We can only infer it indirectly from how a system behaves, what it says, what it does.

• 5:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay. And now this is probably a good moment to ask you what consciousness is in your opinion. I think when you started, entered, when you entered the field, it was pretty ill-defined. It was sort of like people saying, well, it's, you just know it when you see it. But there are some definitions now. So, you know, as we get into, and I'm going to ask you about, you say it's unlikely, but not impossible. So I'm going to ask you where the not impossible side of that comes in. But I think it's first important to sort of talk about what consciousness actually is.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  It is good to start with a definition. And actually definitions that servers have been, have been around for a long time. It's more that consciousness was considered a bit disreputable to study from within psychology and neuroscience until, you know, around the early nineties.

• 5:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, why was that?

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Well, and that's for a number of reasons. It's in psychology for much of the 20th century, it wasn't only consciousness that was outlawed from research. It was pretty much any kind of internal mental state at all. They had this whole, you had this whole paradigm of behaviorism, which was especially dominant in the US, actually, which said that it's only reasonable to study behavior because only behavior can be observed. And we shouldn't think about inner cognitive processes at all. That got dealt a death blow primarily by, by Noam Chomsky, when he argued that it's impossible to understand language purely on the basis of behavior. Yet we all speak, we all have language and language is a very important thing to understand when we want to understand human beings.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Once people are able to start talking about internal cognitive processes, then.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Consciousness was perhaps next on the list. And there's, there's a whole history of why in the nineties the tide turns. Good work on consciousness was going on before then, but it was a mixture of the fall of behaviourism, of a couple of Nobel Prize winners Gerald Adelman and Francis Crick, giving the area some legitimacy. And also the beginning of brain imaging, or really the, the widespread availability of brain imaging. So you could look inside the living human brain while people were having different kinds of experiences. All of these things contributed to consciousness coming back on the menu. And I feel very lucky because I was beginning my career, my studies at around that time. But just to return to this crucial question of definition. Of course, there's still disagreement.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Philosophers and scientists will, would argue about definitions forever. But there's some basic sense, I think, in which most people agree. And the definition that I think illustrates this the best comes from Thomas Nagel, a philosopher. And he said, for a conscious organism, that is something it is like to be that organism. It feels like something to be me. It feels like something to be you. But it doesn't feel like anything to be a table or a chair or headphones. For these kinds of things, I don't know why I picked headphones, but I'm just looking at them on the table. But for these kinds of things, the intuition is there is no experience going on at all.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  So consciousness in this sense is very, very basic. We all do know what it is, in fact. It's what goes away when we fall into a dreamless sleep or go under general anesthesia and returns when we come back. It's any kind of subjective experience whatsoever. And I think the generality of that is important because it, it helps us resist the temptation of equating consciousness with something else. On this general definition, consciousness is not the same thing as having a richly elaborated sense of self with a name and a set of memories. You know, we humans have that, we adult humans do, but consciousness doesn't require that in general. And also.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  And probably critically for our conversation, consciousness is not the same thing as intelligence. Just because a system is smart, it doesn't, it's not saying the same thing as saying that that system has conscious experience. The two concepts are distinct, whether they inevitably go together. Despite being distinct is something we can talk about. I don't think they do. So that's, I think that's a good starting point. Most people would agree that just tying consciousness to experience is important. Some people then would use it synonymously with awareness. I do, you know, I think consciousness and awareness, the same thing. And also there's this other word sentience, which gets bandied around quite a lot too.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  I tend to avoid this because while for some people sentience also means consciousness. For other people, sentience just means that a system responds to input in some way. In which case a robot could be sentient or my central heating system could be sentient for that matter. With no connotation that there's any experiencing going on. So I would leave that aside and think about consciousness as this central concept that emphasizes that experiencing is happening.

• 10:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, and it's interesting how we take this one, you know, really tough to define term consciousness. And then we get into the answer and the answer has another really tough to define term, which is feeling. What is feeling? Eh, well, yeah, why don't you answer that?

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Well, that, that, yeah, you're right. There's something a little bit circular about defining consciousness this way. Cause it just keeps pointing back to this, this central fact that experience is happening. And there's a, there's, when I open my eyes, it's not just that my brain is registering visual information and guiding my behavior. I open my eyes and colors happen in my mind. There are experiences of colors and shapes. And I can perceive consciously objects. It's not just that I respond to them. That's what feeling means in this context. It feels like something to have a visual experience. It also feels like something to have an emotional experience too. So yes, the word is a little confusing because

• 11:10Speaker 02

  feelings can be used to mean emotions, but I'm using it here. Just to emphasize that when I am conscious, there is something that it is like to be me, back to Miguel's definition.

• 11:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  That is some experiencing happening.

• 11:26Alex Kantrowitz?

  So why do you find it so difficult for machines to have that experience? I mean, and then talk a little bit about how you think that it's not impossible. So you do leave open a possibility that that can be something that a machine or a software program can actually have at some point.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you have to leave it open because we just don't. And we have to leave it open mainly for the reason that although we now understand quite a bit more than we used to in neuroscience, psychology, philosophy, about the brain basis of human and animal consciousness. We don't know everything. And in particular, we don't really know, although some people will claim otherwise, we don't really know what the necessary and sufficient conditions are. We know in a human brain that if you knock out parts of it, consciousness goes away forever. And there are experiments going on that argue about which parts of the brain are more important for consciousness as it happens in humans.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  But we can't really generalize beyond humans to arbitrarily different systems. So it's difficult to know what criteria we would use to say that a machine has consciousness. This is different from intelligence because intelligence can be defined from the outside. We can define intelligence as having the general capabilities of, or general artificial intelligence, as it's often called, would be an AI that has the cognitive behavioral capabilities of a human being. And that can be assessed from the outside. It's still very tricky to do, but it's not impossible in principle.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  For consciousness, it's very, very difficult. So we don't really know the necessary and sufficient conditions, which means we have to leave the possibility open. Why am I suspicious about it? Well, I think there are two big assumptions that underpin the eagerness with which some people attribute consciousness to computers, to AI. The first of these is that intelligence and consciousness go together in some intimate and unavoidable way, that intelligence just implies consciousness. And I don't think this assumption is very well supported. I think it comes from a human tendency to see ourselves at the centre of everything, as the pinnacle of everything, this human exceptionalism, where, you know, we know

• 13:56Speaker 02

  we're conscious and we think we're intelligent, so we assume the two are very, very, very, perhaps necessarily linked. And then the argument often goes that, okay, so when AI reaches a certain level of intelligence, which is often but not always human-level intelligence, then that's the point where the lights come on, and the system is not only intelligent, it's also conscious. But I don't really see any justification for that at all. Now, in the animal kingdom, there may be many organisms, many species, that have conscious experiences but don't stack up against our human, sort of human-oriented view of what intelligence is.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  You don't have to be particularly smart to suffer, for instance, to have experiences of pain or disgust, which might be very important for many species in staying alive. So that's one. But the other really big assumption that people make is, in philosophy of mind, it's called functionalism. And this is the idea that the stuff that something is made out of doesn't really matter. It's the, it sort of couples two ideas together. One is substrate independence. So, applied to consciousness, the idea is it doesn't really matter that we're made out of carbon and that we have these kind of flesh and blood bodies and biological neurons

• 15:25Speaker 02

  with neurotransmitters washing around. That's just the substrate. What really matters is what functions the substrate supports, what functions the mechanism of the brain implements. And that if you could implement the same functions in a different mechanism, then you would also get the same, not only behaviour, but the same potential for consciousness. So this this assumption of functionalism is really quite common. That consciousness is just a consequence of the function of a mechanism. But I think it's a really strong assumption, and it may be true. I can't prove that it isn't, but it may well not be true.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Because for some things it is true. So computers, we all know by now, can do things like play Go very well, very, very well. And they actually play Go. Now, that's fine. Playing Go is substrate independent in that sense. But then there are other things which aren't. So a computer simulation of a weather system, however accurate, however detailed, however complicated it is, it never gets wet or windy inside the computer. You know, rain is substrate dependent. So simulation is not the same. The substrate in this case would be the, you know, the stuff the computer is made out of. Right, so you know, you make a computer out of silicon.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  It can play Go against the human being. It's fine. Go is being played. But a computer that's simulating a storm, it doesn't actually get wet and windy.

• 17:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, it could get wet and it would just break, so.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  It could, but it's not getting wet in virtue of simulating rain. So that's just stuff that's going on inside and transistors are switching and so on. So the question is, what's consciousness like? Is it more like Go or is it more like the weather?

• 17:22Speaker 02

  If it's more like Go, then indeed it might be substrate independent. And then there's no obstacle to things that are made of silicon, you know, made of tin cans strung together the right way, being conscious. But if consciousness is more like the weather, or more like digestion, for example, in in real bodies, digestion is a biochemical process that goes all the way down to the molecules. Then the idea that a a system, you know, a computer system could be conscious just doesn't work. Yes, sure, you could simulate it, but it wouldn't give rise to the phenomenon. There's there's this distinction between simulation.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  And instantiation. And it's important to just keep that in mind because the fact that you can simulate something does not mean for all things that you also give rise to the thing that you are simulating.

• 18:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right, and you know, can I suggest that, okay, these are physical experiences, right, the experience of weather, for instance. But it seems to me that when it comes to consciousness, what you're really sort of pointing to is that, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's somewhat metaphysical, right? That it's not simply a chemical reaction to experience, that there's something beyond maybe what we can explain with science in terms of what that actually is.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  I'm not sure I agree with that. Of course, there's a debate.

• 18:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  But let me just, you know, sort of give a secondary to that, and I want you to answer, but like, if it's not metaphysical, then why can't, you know, you eventually code that into machines?

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Okay, because there are two different things going on here. There is a legitimate debate about metaphysics in philosophy. You know, for instance, whether a scientific materialist understanding of the brain as a machine of some sort, of a mechanism of some sort, will ever explain the fact that experience is going on. The philosopher David Chalmers has called this the hard problem of consciousness. Now, he says that, why should it be that physical processing gives rise to a rich inner life at all? It seems objectively unreasonable that it should, and yet it does. So the hard problem is the intuition that a science of anything, whether it's computers

• 19:42Speaker 02

  or biology, physics, any level of description of a system is going to fall short of explaining why and how consciousness happens. That's the intuition behind the hard problem. That's a metaphysical challenge, and it's still out there. I happen to think it's probably not going to turn out that way, just we underestimate the resources of materialism. But that's very different from the claim that, okay, let's assume that we can, let's assume that there is a scientific materialist explanation for consciousness. We haven't found it yet, but let's assume that some future neuroscience will have shown satisfactorily how certain physical systems.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Give rise to conscious experiences. That does not mean that consciousness is therefore something that you can program into a computer. That's a separate thing. Only certain things you can do that for. You can do that for Go. You can't do that for for weather. You can't do that for digestion. You can simulate these things, but you can't generate them in a computer. So the two are actually very different claims.

• 20:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, interesting. And then going back to your definition of it feels like something to be that thing. You know, the interesting thing, and this is something Blaise Aguero Iarcus has, the Google researcher who's worked a little bit with Blake Lemoine has has brought up is that maybe there's something in the middle between, you know, being, you know, purely unconscious and then conscious in the way we think about it. In that the chatbot Lambda is is, you know, not only are we trying to interact with it, but it's, you know, making a model of us and it remembers us and it's, you know, it's sort of a,

• 21:31Alex Kantrowitz?

  you know, has has an experience potentially of speaking with people. Now, listen, I I think that like, I'm bringing this up for, you know, for the nature of conversation. I'm not, you know, with Blake Lemoine and saying, and I mentioned this on the show. I'm not with him in saying that Lambda is sentient. But I do think that it's interesting. You know, in terms of like, when I think basically about the, it feels like something to be something, you know, maybe there is, maybe it does.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Well, I I think we can't rule it out, but I really don't think there's any strong, any convincing reason to believe that's what's going on at all. It's one of the things that Blake has argued, which I I totally agree with, is that by focusing so much on this question of whether the chatbot or whatever it is next has conscious experiences. We just stop paying attention to how remarkable some of this technology actually is. And that the chatbot Lambda is so much better than chatbots of a few years ago that it's really quite uncanny. It really is very, very impressive. And as you, as you just said, it does interesting things like it will, as I understand.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  It will make a model of whoever it is talking to. It's sort of models tries to have a generative model of the mind it's interacting with. This is pretty clever. This is cool stuff. But again, there's nothing in there that that means that, OK, we've now crossed the line. So now awareness has to be there, too. It just that that's that's a totally different claim. It may be that in biological systems that have this capability of, for instance, modeling the minds of others, having a kind of theory of mind, that we do this in a way that's inextricable from being conscious. That's the evolutionary path we followed. Evolution just hit upon consciousness as a very useful trick for us to do many, many things.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  And we do it in virtue of being conscious. But that doesn't mean that's the only way to do it. And AI generally does things in a very, very different way from brains as we know them. I know this is a point Gary Marcus makes quite frequently. Much of AI at the moment is very, very clever pattern recognition. With with added things now, too, with generative models and so on and so on. But it's still quite a way off what real brains are doing. And even if they become closer, we still have this issue that for consciousness, it's still unknown whether simulation is going to be the same as instantiation. And what we're going to end up with, I think, is a situation where we have machines that

• 24:13Speaker 02

  become very convincing that there's a conscious mind behind them, much more convincing than than even Lambda. I mean, Lambda, as has been pointed out many times, is really quite easy to catch out. I think that was one snippet of conversation where somebody said, you know, so what makes you happy? And Lambda said something like friends and family, but it doesn't have any friends and family. This is this is a bit of a giveaway, that it's just it's just an algorithm that's figuring out this is the kind of thing to say in this kind of situation. Now, maybe Lambda in five years or 10 years will not make that kind of mistake.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  And we'll be in this very curious psychological situation where we almost can't help attributing a conscious mind to the thing we're interacting with. Yet we will have no good reason to believe that that is actually a conscious mind behind it. And I think this is going to be quite challenging for society.

• 25:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  And so then when does it? That's really interesting that it's gonna, I mean, basically fool everybody into thinking, potentially fool everybody into thinking it's consciousness. So, but it won't be. So when does it cross that line? I mean, is, again, like, if it makes a model of the world, if it makes a model of the people that it speaks with, if it, you know, has some, you know, instinct of self-preservation coded into it, where does it cross the line from being really good at tricking people to actually being that thing that you would call conscious?

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, nobody knows. I think this is the, this is the truth. The reality is nobody really knows where that line is crossed because nobody really knows with hand on heart what are the sufficient mechanisms for consciousness in anything. We just, we just don't know, which is why, by the way, I think that the whole idea that people should just set out to try to build a conscious machine is a, is a really terrible idea because you might, we might do it by accident without really knowing when we've crossed that line.

• 26:14Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  And crossing that line might be, if, if it is true that consciousness is substrate independent, i.e. that, that it can happen in a digital computer, it may be not so far away. And it may not be a function of intelligence. It may be just, oh, yeah, we give it, we give it the right kind of sense of self, we give it the right kind of self-model. It might be that. It may be a very long way away if consciousness turns out to really depend on the stuff that something is made of, then we'll have to wait for properly biological computers. And, and in this case, other technologies like brain organoids, which are, which are lab-grown little mini-brains made out of, made out of neurons and human embryo, embryonic stem cells, that's a much more worrying...

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Technology in the sense that there you you've got the same substrate and these organoids might not be very smart at all, but they're made out of the same stuff. So the prospect of at least some minimal form of awareness happening in a in a brain organoid, I think, is a much closer prospect than consciousness in a computer, even if the computer appears to be quite smart, purely because the computer is made of something different and we just don't know whether that makes a difference or not.

• 27:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  Anil Seth is with us. He's the professor of cognitive and computational neuroscience at the University of Sussex, the author of Being You. He's also running this thing called the Perception Census, which we're going to talk about a little bit in the second half. But you want to give a give yourself a head start looking at it. You can find it at perceptioncensus.dreammachine.world. We'll be back in the second half to talk a little bit more about why forging ahead with this without fully understanding what might make it conscious, what might make AI consciousness a terrible deal as idea, as Professor Seth puts it. So why don't we pick up the second half talking about why this might be so bad? And maybe we talk a little bit about those brain organoids as well. We'll be back right after this.

• 28:13Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 30:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  And we're back here for the second half with Professor Anil Seth. He's a professor of cognitive and computational neuroscience at the University of Sussex, author of Being You, which I read over the weekend and quite enjoyed. And let's go back to this idea of forging ahead, trying to build, because everybody's trying to build general AI. And of course, conscious AI to many people is sort of part and parcel of that. And I think you might take some issue with that. But clearly, they're trying to do both. You have this quote in your book, Professor, "We should not blithely forge ahead, attempting to create artificial consciousness simply because we think it's interesting, useful, or cool. The best ethics is preventative ethics." That's really fascinating. So where, you know, it's kind of interesting

• 31:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  because we're at this moment where like, everyone's like, you know, that's far away or highly unlikely, including yourself. And yet, there is this concern of like, continuing to go forward because it might unleash this Pandora's box. So can you unpack that a little bit?

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Sure. So yeah, centrally, the problem is we won't really have a good idea about when it becomes possible to create artificial consciousness. And our own intuitions about it, as systems like Lambda have demonstrated, are incredibly unreliable because we tend to project consciousness into things that appear similar to us. So the better we get at developing AI, that can mirror back to us what we're like, how we talk, how we behave, combine a future Lambda with deep fakes and so on, like, at least on video. Well, we're not that far away from systems that will give us a very compelling impression of being conscious. And that's a very unreliable intuition.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  But why should we be worried about it happening by accident? And there's a very basic reason for that, which is that once something has conscious experiences, then we have a moral and ethical obligation towards that thing. There is the potential for suffering. If there is the potential for artificial consciousness, there's the potential for artificial suffering. And just imagine a world where we we accidentally, and we don't even know that we've done it. Maybe it's not something that appears particularly human, like we build some system. And for that system, its conscious experience is aversive, it's negative. It feels bad to be that system or some version of bad for whatever that system is.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  And then we replicate this system a million times, a billion times across the planet. We have just increased the net amount of suffering in the world by a huge amount. And we won't even know that we've done it. And this may seem very far fetched. It may seem very, you know, given all the clear and present ethical worries about the intelligence part of AI, of which there are very many. I mean, AI is so disruptive in so many ways. This may just seem idle philosophical speculation. But the possibility, however remote, and again, to underline, we just don't know how remote that is, I think is sufficient to give us pause and

• 33:33Speaker 02

  and give us some motivation for developing a framework about.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  How we should think about this? What research efforts should we encourage? What sort of regulations and frameworks we should we should put in place? And then there's a German philosopher, a very good friend of mine, Thomas Metzinger, who has argued that we should basically stop doing all research that uses computers to try to understand consciousness for precisely the reason that we might accidentally create consciousness, and that would be an ethical catastrophe. Now, I don't tend to go that far, because in my view, what we really need to do is understand more about the brain basis of consciousness, so that we can make more informed decisions about the likelihood of consciousness beyond the human.

• 34:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right, and in the first half, we talked a little bit about, you know, whether this is potentially like totally explained physically, or, you know, potentially explained metaphysically. I mean, what's your read on it? It's just like, some people will say, you know, that love is something beyond a pure chemical reaction, and other people will like clearly point to like, what happens with the release of oxy, what is it, oxytocin in the brain?

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Oxytocin, yeah.

• 34:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  And say, no, there's no such thing as love, this is this is just chemicals. So is consciousness the same way? Do you, you know, I mean, I don't know if this is fully solved yet, but, you know, in your in your heart, do you think that this is that it is purely physical, something you could explain with physical sciences, or is there something else there?

• 35:05Speaker 02

  In my heart and in the depths of my mind, I am not 100% sure, but what I am...

• 35:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  What's your hunch, though? Yeah.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  My hunch is that it's the best strategy for us to follow, to take the view that that it is, and see how far we get.

• 35:21Alex Kantrowitz?

  That it is physically explainable? Yeah.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I think so. There's this whole program of, basically, you don't have to to to follow the path of of working on consciousness, trying to understand it. You don't, at the beginning, have to make a call either way. I mean, we know that consciousness is not independent of the brain. There are very, very lawful relations. You know, you give some anesthesia, you lose consciousness, the anesthesia goes away, it comes back. You give people psychedelic drugs, they have all sorts of weird conscious experiences. You manipulate the brain, then experience changes. And we can start to build bridges between these two levels of description. You know, you mentioned oxytocin and and love, and of course, love is not the same thing as oxytocin, they're different levels of description.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  But ultimately, something like love or any emotion is the sum of all sorts of other things that are going on, but it's the description of all those sorts of other things at a higher level of description. It's not just a molecule. I get really frustrated with dopamine as well. People sort of attribute dopamine with so many different magical properties. It's just a chemical. It's the brain, the body, the organism within a network of other organisms that has the property of social bonding, let's say, that doesn't apply to a chemical itself. So having different levels of description is perfectly compatible with there being

• 36:47Speaker 02

  a scientific explanation underpinning that. I mean, we look at a flock of birds. The flock of birds looks like it has an identity of itself, but there's nothing mysterious about that being true while it also being true that the flock is just made up of a bunch of birds. So all of this stuff is perfectly fine. Now with consciousness, there may be something else. This is back to David Chalmers description of the hard problem. It may be that whatever explanation in terms of chemistry and physics and biology and neuroscience, there will always be something left over about consciousness, some residue of mystery.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Now, I basically tend not to worry about that because we won't know unless we really try to explain consciousness in terms of underlying mechanisms. This is what I call the real problem of consciousness rather than the hard problem. To explain, predict and control properties of conscious experiences in terms of their underlying mechanisms. Now, this isn't the same thing as explaining why and how consciousness is part of the universe in the first place. It's a slightly different thing. It accepts that consciousness exists and tries to explain why it comes and goes in certain situations, why vision is different from emotion is different from smell, what an experience of free will is like and what

• 38:10Speaker 02

  work that does for an organism. These are all things that can be tackled.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  By neuroscience with computational modeling and all these other useful techniques we have. And we will see how far we get. And maybe at the end, there will be still something that that is not explained, but maybe they won't. Now, the similar thing happened with the study of life about 150 years ago. Eminent scientists and philosophers thought that life could not be explained by physics and chemistry. There had to be something kind of supernatural, some sort of spark of life. But of course, that's not the case. And life was understood not by people eventually finding a spark of life

• 38:55Speaker 02

  or proving that life doesn't exist, but by, instead of treating life as one big scary mystery, understanding that life has many different features. There's metabolism, there's reproduction, there's all sorts of things, explaining the properties of living systems. And bit by bit, the intuition that there was something mysterious about life faded away. And the hard problem of life wasn't solved, it was dissolved. And so that's why I really believe that by just doing the hard work of explaining, understanding how the brain and the body relates to, explains properties of consciousness. We may not solve the hard problem, but we may dissolve it.

• 39:39Alex Kantrowitz?

  And you mentioned free will in your answer. So I'm curious, having studied the brain as much as you have, do you believe in free will?

• 39:48Speaker 02

  I, it depends what you mean by free will again. So I don't think there's any sort of immaterial essence of me that swoops in and changes the course of physical events. That, you know, pulls strings inside my brain or body and makes things happen that that wouldn't otherwise have happened. I think the whole, there's a lot of discussion when people talk about free will about, well, if the world, if the universe is deterministic, then there can be no such thing as free will. If there's some amount of randomness, some amount of stochasticity, then maybe there's a little elbow room for free will to come in and swerve reality one way compared to another. I think that's totally misguided. That's such a red herring.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  For me, we are complex organisms. Some of the things we do are very immediate, instant responses to our environment. We put our hand on a hot stove, we take it off even before we've noticed. Other things seem more deliberative and volitional. I, I, before this podcast, I went to the kitchen and made a cup of tea. And that felt like a voluntary thing to do. I, I did that because I wanted a cup of tea and something to drink while we were talking. This is fine. This just means that the, the causes of my organism doing that came more from within, rather than from the immediacies of my environment. Mike Shadlin has this lovely term for voluntary behaviour. He calls it freedom from immediacy.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  And when organisms like us make actions that have this kind of freedom from immediacy, the causes of which extend way back through the body, maybe back in time. And why, why did I make tea? It's because I'm English and therefore I, I like tea, but I didn't choose to like tea. And that wasn't something, a choice that I made. That's just the way I am. That's the system that I am. When we as an organism make these kinds of actions, then I, I think the sort of subjective flip side of that is the experience of free will. So we experience free will to basically label in our ongoing flow of experience those actions that come more from within than from outside. And why do we do this?

• 42:01Speaker 02

  Well, it's not because the experience itself causes the action. That would be back to this kind of immaterial stuff, parachuting in and changing things. I think it's so that the organism can learn. So when we make a voluntary action, it's, it's useful to, to label it so that the organism can pay attention to the consequences and maybe do something different the next time around, because then the system will be different.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  So in my view, there's nothing particularly mysterious about free will. We experience it. These experiences are fundamentally tied to our behaviour in useful ways. Just as, let's say, the experience of colour is very useful for an organism to have, even though colour doesn't exist as a mind-independent property of the world.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  So, yeah, we have many degrees of freedom. We exert control over these degrees of freedom, or rather, our brain body does. And in certain situations, that's accompanied by a particular kind of experience we label as free will, and there's a good reason for that.

• 43:05Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, now, look, I've lived in Silicon Valley for long enough that I eventually ran into people who were coding these programs and started to come to believe that we were, you know, living in a simulation coded by someone else, which is an interesting idea. And, you know, effectively that, you know, maybe we are the future, you know, instantiations of Lambda created by some society or person and, you know, a world we can't see. So, anyway, you feel like you're a guy, a good guy to run that by. Now, what's your reaction to that?

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Well, the simulation hypothesis, yeah, don't know the simulation hypothesis. This, this really does wind me up a bit, actually.

• 43:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  There's, there's, it's no coincidence, is it, that it seems very popular in Silicon Valley, where people are building

• 43:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  No, sir, yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  complicated simulations. So there's, I think there's a bit of a god complex going on there to start with. You know, wouldn't it be nice to see yourself at this pivotal moment of technological development? There's also a bit of an immortality complex happening here, some kind of techno rapture that, you know, if this, if that's true, if we are, if we are sort of simulated minds in a big, universe-wide computer program, then maybe we can find a way to upload ourselves to a different simulation and live forever. And all of these things get a bit mixed together, I think. The idea of being, it's powerful tech, god and immortality and, yeah, it's all a bit unseemly to me.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  And the, the basic idea of it comes from a very interesting philosophical paper by, by Nick Bostrom, where he tries to lay out a statistical argument for why it might be the case that we indeed live in a simulation. Basically, the argument being that if we don't exterminate ourselves, which seems very questionable, seems very likely that we will.

• 45:06Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, rough week to bring that one up.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  If we don't, yeah, exactly. If we don't, and we keep on building more powerful computers, then at least some people who build these really powerful computers will be interested in building simulations of their ancestors. And because these simulations could be run many, many, many times in parallel, then it might be more likely that we, in fact, are in one of these simulations than in the base reality. I don't like this argument because it's basically putting probabilities for things which we really have no good way to estimate at all, and assuming that future mind, assuming things like what some far-future mind might find interesting, which is also a bit strange.

• 45:50Speaker 02

  But also, and Bostrum does say this in his paper, it brings us back to a running theme of our conversation, which is the idea that consciousness is something that can be generated in simulation, that it's substrate-independent. So Bostrum explicitly says, yeah, there's actually another assumption for his simulation argument, which is that functionalism is true, that consciousness is something that could exist in a computer equally well as it exists as a result of a biological brain. And he says in this paper, this is kind of widely accepted in philosophy of mind, and I just don't think it is. Certainly, I don't accept it. I think it's a very, it may be true, but as we've discussed at

• 46:34Speaker 02

  length, there's no good reason to believe that it is true.

• 46:39Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. And you know, there's been a theme that's sort of underlied this entire second half here. And that, you know, you just brought it up in terms of like people's interest in playing God. And, you know, it's interesting that, you know, you're on this path to try to explain consciousness as we can in the physical world, yet you begin your chapter about artificial intelligence with a spiritual story, the story of the Golem in Prague. And, you know, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on, and, you know, it is interesting because, you know, maybe it is entirely physical, but it's really hard to stay away from the metaphysical and the spiritual in this conversation. And I'm curious, A, if you think there's, you know, aside from, you know, causing, well, maybe it's a part of this, like the causing suffering, there's spiritual risk to this

• 47:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  type of work. And I'm curious, why you think people are so interested in playing the role of God? You know, creating life from nothing, right? As opposed to through nature? And what do you think that says about us?

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, let's take that second bit first. I'm not sure that everybody is interested in doing that. I agree that there is this prominent theme throughout history where at least some people are.

• 47:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, there's a, there's a large portion of AI researchers that do so. That's, that's the ones that I'm focusing on. Maybe everyone was a little too broad.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Well, I think that could be, so there's one very good reason for having that kind of motivation, which is the idea that we, we can't fully understand something until we build it. This is this sort of idea of understanding through synthesis. And that is, that's very reasonable for complex mechanisms in particular. We often need to build them, to simulate them, to, to understand what's going on. Not everything will come down to a magic equation or two that suddenly explains everything. So that's, that's a good reason. But I think what you're hinting at, there's something more going on than just this sort of scientific motivation, which is this really wanting to create life, really wanting to create

• 48:46Speaker 02

  artificial consciousness. And it's that part that I am a bit suspicious of. I, I think there have to be other reasons, there have to be good reasons for trying to build something that is alive and especially build something that has conscious experiences beyond the fact that it gives you, it might give you a sense of extraordinary self-importance to be the person that does that. That's not a good reason at all. Why do we, why do some people have this desire? I mean, I'm not one of them, so I find it a bit difficult to, to understand. Now, I would be very, very concerned if that was in the future of my research. I'm fairly confident that's what I'm not doing.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  I'm sufficiently confident that the kind of computational models I'm working with are not on a path to becoming conscious, that I'm happy to continue to do that work. If it was the other way around, then I'd be, I'd be questioning myself a lot more.

• 49:44Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, and I definitely, you know, when we do this conversation at the World Summit AI, which I'm actually hoping to put on the feed sometime soon, and, you know, asking these spiritual questions, and I feel like, you know, they're important to address and can be unpopular. Definitely got a few angry tweets about it. But, look, it's sort of like, this is part of this discussion. And, you know, it is interesting that this research is taking place in the context of, you know, religious participation on the decline in a big way, at least, I don't know, in the US and I'm sure elsewhere.

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a lot going on, and I think that there is a spirit, there's certainly a spiritual dimension to trying to understand consciousness. There's this constant interrogation of what it means to be a person, what it means to be an individual, and this is the question that I try to explore in the book with the title being you, you know, what does it mean to be the individual that you are? Is it the set of memories that you have? Is it this experience of free will that you have? Is it the experience of the body that you have? Is it the moods, the emotions? What is it? And does it change? We tend to have this idea that there's an essence of me or you that is fairly persistent,

• 51:04Speaker 02

  fairly stable, maybe even completely immutable and transportable from one body to another in some ideas, some frameworks. But as the spiritual traditions like Buddhism have long taught us, this is a very, A, it's very unhelpful, and B, it's really not a very accurate description of what experiences of self are like, and they're continually changing. And our relationship both to the experience of self and to the experience of the changing self.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Also changes. Sometimes we can be quite comfortable with the changing self. At other times, we feel we struggle against it and we want to hold on to this notion that there's a deep continuity.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  And so there's something inevitable when you try to understand the brain basis of conscious experience, both of the world around us and of the self within that world, that you'll interact, I think, in a productive, complementary way with many ideas from spiritual traditions, because the questions are the same. Why, what's going on?

• 52:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  Why am I here? What's the meaning of all of these things do come up? And I think it's wrong to just reject them and say, well, that's not, you know, that's not a hard no scientific question. They're questions for which a deeper understanding of the biology of consciousness and self speak to, and I think they speak to it in a useful way.

• 52:31Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, we've covered a lot of ground so far. We've talked about machine consciousness, human consciousness, spirituality, free will and simulation theories. So there's just one more thing I want to bring up, you know, as long as we're here covering the full broad base, which is that, you know, there's another thing happening as all this research is going on, as these questions are being surfaced, which is that some companies, Meta, are trying to push us into a metaverse where, you know, maybe one day you won't be able to tell the difference between whether you're speaking with a human or a simulated being somewhere inside there. And I'm curious what you think that that's all about. I mean, in terms of like your research and when it comes to, you know, our interactions

• 53:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  with others, if we start moving to the metaverse and we're living in this hybrid society, you know, are there, are there things we should be concerned about and thinking about?

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, so here's where I think the real clear and present dangers of AI reside, or at least some of them. And again, setting aside the possibility of real artificial consciousness, it is true that technology is going to do a much better job, whether in the metaverse or somewhere else, of convincingly imitating it, especially if interactions are remote and virtual. Hardware robotics is still a bit, is still a bit lagging. And we will indeed live in a strange world where we might not be able to tell the difference

• 54:05Speaker 02

  between a real mind, a conscious mind, and a simulated avatar mind. And and we might, yeah, and when I say we might not be able to tell the difference, I don't mean this in the sense that we just wouldn't know enough and if we knew a bit more, we would be able to. I mean it in the sense that, for instance, we see in some visual illusions. There are visual illusions, for instance, where I can show you two lines and they they look different lengths and then I can prove to you that the same length. Even when you know that, they still look different lengths to you. You know, we open our eyes, we see colours. We can do the research and realise that colours, as we experience them, don't exist out there in the world, but that knowledge doesn't prevent us from seeing colours.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  So there are things that we would call cognitively impenetrable. And that's what I worry might happen in the reasonably near future in in AI, in the metaverse or wherever, that we will get cognitively impenetrable virtual avatars that we are fundamentally incapable of not perceiving as being conscious. And here's where I do think we we need proactive regulation and ethics, because there are many dystopian situations that can arise in this. You know, we could be much more easily manipulated. We could be in a situation where we're encouraged to, you know, sort of Westworld type scenario that for those of you who've seen that that science fiction film and series where, you

• 55:33Speaker 02

  know, we're encouraged to take out our most depraved instincts on systems that we know our machines, but nonetheless, we can't help perceiving as being aware. And what will that do to our minds? It's kind of sociopathic.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  So I think that, and then there's the other thing, which is that.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  And I think to one of my projects, you mentioned right at the top of it is the perception census, which is trying to measure how different our inner experiences of a shared world really are. We don't know very much about this. And so when we're interacting with artificial systems, these systems, even Lambda, as you said a minute ago, are making assumptions about the structure of the mind they're interacting with. So now we have a whole sort of new set of potential biases to worry about, the biases that come about by not recognizing the diversity of our inner lives, just as we've had plenty of problems with biases in AI that arise from

• 56:32Speaker 02

  not recognizing our externally visible diversity in things like skin color and so on. So all these issues, I think, are much higher up the priority list than me, for me, than worrying about a machine suddenly becoming aware. I think we should worry about that a little. I like to think of a worry budget. You know, I've got a hundred pounds, how do I spend it on worrying? Like, it's important to spend maybe five or 10 pounds on worrying about artificial sentience, artificial consciousness, because the consequences would be so world-changing and catastrophic, potentially catastrophic. But, you know, the rest of the 95 quid, I think we should spend on worrying about those things which are very likely to happen, if not already happening. And

• 57:17Speaker 02

  exactly your scenario of us being in an environment where we may be constitutively unable to distinguish whether we're interacting with a real human or an avatar raises so many tricky ethical issues that we need to get our regulations, what we want and what we don't want, straight, and we need to get that straight now.

• 57:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, after speaking with Blake Lemoine, I went to do some reporting and try to find some people working on the original Lambda system. And I actually did get someone on the phone. And I wrote about this in Big Technology, who said that this is not going to stay as, you know, chat, as you would like, you know, chatting in a messaging system, but it will, you know, end up having an avatar in a physical, you know, a digital form, and a voice potentially, and you might talk to it. And that doesn't seem like it's too far away, so.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  No, it doesn't. And again, it's like, it's not cool to just do that because it seems cool. You know, it's that has massive psychological consequences when you start doing stuff like that.

• 58:20Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. All right. Before we go, I definitely want to get a shout out to the Perception Census. And so do you want to share a little bit more about what that is and how people can participate?

• 58:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I'd be very glad to. So it comes out of a project that I've been doing for the last a couple of years, working with philosophers and composers and architects, actually called The Dream Machine. And The Dream Machine, it's just finished a run in the UK. It's based on an old art idea, art device, in fact, which was a very simple, very bright, flickering light that if you sat in front of with your eyes closed, you would have extraordinary visual experiences. The Beat Generation artist Brian Geison, with William Burroughs and others, developed this in the late 1950s. And he called it The Dream Machine. And it was remained on the fringes of art and culture for a while.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  But there's also a neuroscience background to this too. And it's something we study in the lab. We use bright stroboscopic light to induce interesting, very interesting, very powerful visual experiences in people with their eyes closed. And it's a window into the brain basis of visual consciousness, because we're doing stuff to the brain. People have their eyes closed, yet they have these interesting experiences. And anyway, in the last two years, working with this larger group called Collective Act, we developed The Dream Machine as a public event again, reinventing Brian Geison's idea for the 21st century. And we've had a a collective dream machine where 30 people at a time would go in,

• 59:54Speaker 02

  have a visual journey with their eyes closed, and then emerge and reflect on it. And we've had lots of people come through over the summer in the UK. And one of the things that became very apparent was that everyone has a different experience. Everybody, even in the same situation, comes out with a very different inner journey that they've just had. And this is something that I find fascinating and also an impetus to study this larger question, which is that this is true for all of us in everyday life as well, not just in the dream machine. We might, we're talking to each other over a computer now, but imagine that you were here

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  and we both look out of the window and look at the grey sky, because of course it's a grey sky in Brighton. Are we having the same experience of colour? Or of the background sound? Probably not, you know, we all have, just as we all differ in our body shapes and sizes and skin colours, we all have slightly different brains. So we all differ on the inside too. And sometimes these differences are quite large. People have florid hallucinations, they see things that other people don't. Some people have autism and their inner lives is sufficiently different that it surfaces in their language and behaviour. This is all true and important, but I think what's often overlooked is that

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  there's a wide range of diversity among everybody. We all differ and maybe we just differ in ways that are not sufficiently different to notice. We use the same words, we'll use the same language, we behave the same way.

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  And it seems as though for each of us that we see the world as it is. That's the other thing. We open our eyes, it seems as though we're seeing the world as it is. And so it can be very hard for us to realise that that's not what's going on. We're constructing a subjective world in a way that's very dependent on the particularities of our own minds and brains. So this is a very, very long answer to introduce the perception census, which is our attempt to actually measure and map out this hidden world of inner diversity. Not a lot is known about it. And so we designed a series of short, hopefully fun, hopefully engaging and informative little illusions and interactive experiments and things and surveys

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  that anyone can do, anyone over eighteen, anywhere in the world can do, all you need is a computer. It has to be a laptop or a desktop, you can't do it on a tablet or a phone because we're trying to do proper experiments. And

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Through this perception census, we'll begin to get a sense of how rich, how varied and how wonderfully diverse our inner worlds can be. And it's a bit of an exploratory study, so we're just hoping for tens of thousands of people to join us, spend half an hour, an hour with us. I mean, if you do the whole thing, it takes longer, but you can do it in chunks. You can do a bit, leave it, come back. And at each point, we try to explain why we're asking the things we're asking and help you learn something about your own powers of perception and how they relate to others. So if you would like to help us with this research, I'd be enormously grateful for

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  people to give it a go and look for the Perception Census online. It's easy to find. It's Perception Census, or you can just Google that, or it's hanging off my website in a very prominent place, too. And yeah, please consider taking part. It would be amazing.

• 1:03:30Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I'm definitely going to do it. Perceptioncensus.dreammachine.world is the URL, I believe. And this has been such a great conversation. Anil, really appreciate you being here.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  Alex, thank you very much. It's been a real pleasure. I'm so glad we had the chance to dive a bit deeper into the issues that came up in Amsterdam.

• 1:03:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, definitely. Me, too. Okay, everyone, that will do it for us. Thank you, Anil Seth, for being here with us. What a great conversation. We're going to keep going on these conversations about machine cognition, because, you know, I personally can't get enough of them, and I think they're really important to talk about. And I think you need many of them to really get an understanding of the full picture. So thanks for staying with us. Thank you, Nate Guatney, for doing the audio. Thank you, LinkedIn, for having me as part of your podcast network. And thanks to all you listeners. Really appreciate you being here. We will have a new episode with a tech insider or outside agitator coming next Wednesday, as we always do. So we hope to see you then on Big Technology Podcast.

• 1:04:36Speaker 03

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