Chef Fariyal Abdullahi on Crack Burgers, Kitchen Fires and Ethiopian Food 101

Adrienne and Joe are joined by special guest and friend of the show, chef Fariyal Abdullahi. She fills us in on what it’s like to be the executive chef at one of the most sought-after restaurant reservations in New York City, Hav & Mar. Plus, we discuss: Fork It or Forget It: Crack Burgers (yes this is a real trend) LA vs. New York: Who holds the Ethiopian crown? (How about Washington DC) Tips for dining out at an Ethiopian restaurant (and not getting too full) Fariyal’s exhausting weekend at the 2025 James Beard Awards Review Review: How do you get one-star before you even open your doors? Women running the kitchen in fine dining Walk-In Confession: Fariyal gets caught in a fire mishap and Adrienne finds herself in a cloud of smoke Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Fariyal: @fariyalabdul Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Welcome back everybody to another episode of The Chef's Cut. I am Adrian Cheatham and with me as always is my dear friend.

• 0:09Joe Flamm?

  Joe Flamm.

• 0:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  All right, let everybody know what we have on the menu today.

• 0:15Joe Flamm?

  Oh, man, we have a great one today with our friend Fariyal, Chef Fariyal out of Haven Mar in New York. We're talking everything from LA versus New York Ethiopian food. You're explaining to us what some sort of drug burger is. We had a blast of a review review with her from preopening of the restaurant somehow. So it's a future review, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. Future reviews and a really great walk in confession about one of our favorite talking head songs.

• 0:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  You know what, Joe? I think we're also going to talk a little bit about burning bones behind a restaurant.

• 0:51Joe Flamm?

  Take the girl out the south side, but we're still here.

• 0:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  And a little bit about Fariyal. She is the chef at Haven Mar in New York, which is owned by Marcus Samuelson. She is absolutely crushing it over there. She is also a 2024 finalist for James Beard Award for Emerging Chef. She's gotten tons of other accolades from Forbes Magazine to Food and Wine Magazine. So.

• 1:14Joe Flamm?

  All right, well, let's get into it then.

• 1:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Let's do it.

• 1:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hey, Fariyal, thank you so, so much for joining us here on the podcast.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  Of course, I'm so excited. You know, I've been listening since episode one, right?

• 1:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, and you were at the welcome party.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  Oh, geez, Ben. You gotta know, I am the podcast queen because my wind down routine at the end of the night is I listen to one to two podcasts. So you guys have been in my rotation and it's been so exciting because I don't have a food podcast in my rotation. You guys are the first ones.

• 1:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God, that is awesome.

• 1:49Joe Flamm?

  That's huge.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Actually, I want to tell you, Joe, so like we haven't had the pleasure of meeting in person, but by transitive property, since Adrian is my chef bestie and you're her chef bestie, that makes us chef besties.

• 1:59Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, we're chef besties now.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  I hope you know that.

• 2:02Joe Flamm?

  No doubt, no doubt. That's it. That's how it works.

• 2:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's how I felt with like, so you know, the Obama's private chef guy named Sam Cass? He went with them to the White House. He grew up in Hyde Park. So I knew him growing up. He was a few years older, but I like, you know, he was one of the older, cool kids in the neighborhood. So I was like, oh, I totally know the Obamas because I know Sam. Like.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  No, you are their personal chef. Are you kidding me? That's how this works.

• 2:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  I am the White House chef.

• 2:32Joe Flamm?

  Well, like, what's funny is like, so right before he came into office, I was working at Table 52 for Art Smith, who also lived in Hyde Park. So he knew them really well. So like, Michelle would come in like once a week and eat lunch. And it was like, but then it was just like, it was like, oh yeah, that's, you know, like Michelle, that's, you know, her husband's that senator who, you know, like people thinking about for president. You know, it'd be like, she's from Hyde Park, you know, because we had a lot of like important people coming from Hyde Park. And it was like, okay. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, like, this is like, this dude's gonna like, be president. Like, you know what I mean? Like this lady can't just like come in for lunch anymore with like her girls on, you know, a Saturday.

• 3:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, it's shut down. Secret Service will be clearing the place out.

• 3:17Joe Flamm?

  They actually, and they came in, they came back after he got inaugurated, they came in for Valentine's Day.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  No way. For Valentine's Day on the way?

• 3:25Joe Flamm?

  And it was really cool because they were like, we're gonna bring him in the back door. And it's a really small restaurant. And all these things and, you know, Barry being Barry was like,

• 3:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's how cool you are, Joe. You call him Barry. I love it.

• 3:37Joe Flamm?

  He's like, I'm not going to the, he's like, I'm not going to the back door. I'm walking to the front. So he walks to the front door. This, this, you know, this restaurant's like 900 square feet. Everybody loses their minds, like full standing. Like, I still get like chills talking about it. It was one of the coolest things ever.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 3:54Joe Flamm?

  You know, it was awesome.

• 3:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  That is so special. That is so cool. That is like the, the kind of like restaurant memories you have forever.

• 4:03Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. So me and him are basically best friends.

• 4:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 4:05Joe Flamm?

  We're probably, we're probably, Barry, we're probably gonna hoop it up later.

• 4:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Spend the summers on the vineyard.

• 4:12Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wherever, wherever that vineyard is.

• 4:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, Ferri, all you were recently in Chicago for the Beard Awards. You were a correspondent this year, right? So you got to like, talk to people on the red carpet when they won, um, do all those post-stage interviews. That was really cool. So how did you like the Chicago food scene?

• 4:34Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 4:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Did you go out while you were there at all? Or were you too busy?

• 4:37Speaker 02

  No, so this time around, I'm not exaggerating. I was cooped up in my room from the moment I landed. Because it was my first time ever, one, doing live broadcasting. But also, it was six and a half hours of live coverage. Six and a half hours of live coverage. So I did not want to show up and sound like a fool. So from the day I landed, it was study, study, study. Because there were other things, because I got there Friday. Saturday, we had to film some like pre-taped stuff. Sunday was rehearsal. And then Monday, obviously, was the show itself. And then afterwards, I can't, like, I thought I was gonna party. I'm like, it's fine. It's fine, I'll party afterwards.

• 5:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, no, you ghosted. You totally ghosted.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  You, did you, I was like, my eyes were starting to glaze over.

• 5:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  I saw the fade happening in real time.

• 5:27Joe Flamm?

  I think it's also like, you know, you're like, oh, I crush, you know, whatever, 12-hour days, 14-hour days. I've been doing that my whole life.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's very different.

• 5:34Joe Flamm?

  But like, six and a half hours of like, having to be like, on. Like, super on.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, and how do you fill that space?

• 5:41Joe Flamm?

  And like, reminding yourself not to say crazy shit, because it's live.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 5:44Joe Flamm?

  Like, that would be the hardest part for me. I'd be like, this fucking guy, you know what I mean?

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, what an idiot. He won?

• 5:51Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:52Joe Flamm?

  I'd be like, you remember that time? And they'd be like, don't tell that story. I'd be like, oh, yeah, no, right.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  I don't have anything else to say.

• 5:58Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 5:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  But, okay, so Ferriall, you are officially in New York. That's where you live now. But you spent a lot of time in LA, and you grew up in Ethiopia. So I have my favorite Ethiopian restaurant on 135th in Harlem, Avicinia. But what is, between LA and New York? Is there a difference in the food scene for like Ethiopian restaurants? Is one better than the other? What are your thoughts on like, LA versus New York for that?

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Here's the thing. So LA, there's actually a part of LA, like proper LA County, called Little Ethiopia. In Fairfax, where that entire block, that's where I would say 80 to 85% of Ethiopian restaurants. In LA, they're found there. So the competition is pretty fierce because it's rows and rows of Ethiopian restaurants. So you don't really have the, you know, ability to kick back and be like, well, I'm just, I'm just gonna make whatever. You gotta be on because there's an Ethiopian restaurant to your right and an Ethiopian restaurant to your left. Anytime I would go to one of these restaurants, at least half of the guests in the dining room would be Ethiopian.

• 7:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, wow.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  So they're cooking for Ethiopians.

• 7:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  In L.A. So L.A. it has pretty decent Ethiopian food. New York, it's so sparse and anytime I go to eat to an Ethiopian restaurant here, I don't really see that many Ethiopians. So they're not actually cooking for our people. And I feel like that kind of waters down sometimes.

• 7:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ooh.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  And when people ask me, I'm like, New York hasn't even entered the chat.

• 7:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, no. I'll take, okay, well, here's a curve ball.

• 7:49Joe Flamm?

  I'm still here for it. I'm still here for it. I love it.

• 7:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Here's a curve ball. Okay, D.C.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  We bow down to D.C.

• 7:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, right, okay. I thought I had had good Ethiopian food and again, I don't know it. I didn't grow up eating Ethiopian cuisine. It's something I was introduced to living in New York and have gone several times over at least 10 to 12 years. I thought I had had some amazing Ethiopian food until I went to D.C. and I was like, oh, my God, this is like next level.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  That's the one. Like, so D.C. has the highest population of Ethiopians outside of Ethiopia.

• 8:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  And that's because the first direct flight ever out of Addis to the States was D.C. So people started moving here and they're like, well, I guess this is where they dropped us off, so we're.

• 8:34Joe Flamm?

  Right, like this is where we landed. So what do you guys think? You want to stay?

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Let's cap out.

• 8:39Joe Flamm?

  Right. I heard there's this place called Chicago. It's cold as fuck. You want to go there and stay there?

• 8:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Absolutely not.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  I'm the only Ethiopian that can handle cold, so I don't think.

• 8:50Joe Flamm?

  We, we, we, we got a, we got a crew roll out of Chicago. There's some good, you know, good spots here and I don't know, like, and maybe it's just my experience with Ethiopian food in Chicago and it's cause it's my friend Tickets Restaurant. But like, when I go there, it's like, I feel like she like tries to feed me to like, like you, you can eat a little bit of Ethiopian food.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  You can.

• 9:11Joe Flamm?

  It's like, you have to eat all of it. Like you have to eat all of it. It's so much, it's so good. Like it's just like, but it's like, she's like, oh, you're like a little hungry. And I'm like, yeah, like I showed up late to a thing and she's like, you're a little hungry. I was like, yeah. She's like, okay. And then like an hour and like 700 plates of food later, she's like, do you need more food? I was like, who can eat more food? Like, I know I'm big, but it's just like, it was the most, and I was like crushing it. I was like, I don't want to be like, it was really, really good and I didn't want to be rude, but I was like, I am like sick. Like I'm sweating. Like it's just spices coming out of my pores.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  And the thing about Ethiopian food is so injera, the flatbread that you eat, you know, all the sauces and all the proteins with, it's a spongy bread. So it actually expands after.

• 10:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Shout out to Sean said the same thing.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. So like you actually are supposed to stop when you're kind of getting full because that injera will continue to expand as it absorbs like everything else. So.

• 10:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  That is a pro tip right there.

• 10:17Joe Flamm?

  It's like the hard liquor of, of like breads. You know what I mean? It's like, this just hasn't hit you yet, but like you're going to be fucked up in a little bit. Like you need to calm down. And then it's like, you're driving home and you're like, I am so full. I am so full. Like I need to like go home and like lay on my back.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  The other pro tip I could give you guys is your injera ratio to, you know, the goodies that you're picking up. It has to, cause people are like, ooh, let me get a big piece of injera. And like a little bit of the tips or cut, no, no, no. You get a teeny tiny piece of the injera and then you get a lot of the meats and a lot of the sauces and stuff like that. That's how you're going to end up finishing your whole plate. Otherwise. You're gonna, you know, whatever took us this to you, you're gonna be like just laid out on your couch.

• 11:06Joe Flamm?

  I'm people. I'm the people eating way too much and like being in the pain cave.

• 11:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  And we also, as many times as we've gone out to eat, Fairy, all we've never actually, I don't think we've been out for Ethiopian food.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I have never had a proper tutorial on how to hold the injera when I'm going in. So like, I always like, when I see other people at the restaurant that clearly know how to do this, like their fingers are so much cleaner than mine. And I feel like a child. I'm like covered in like streaks of sauce. Like, I'm like, how, what is the technique? I mean, you have to give me a demo for that.

• 11:41Joe Flamm?

  I look like a bear that broke into a car on a national fort, you know, just like, like, you know what I mean? Or it's just like, people are like, I don't know, should we just, just leave it? It'll go away. It'll leave. Like, once it's done, he'll just leave. It'll be fine. Like, but it's horrific.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Okay, so clearly, I need to meet up with both of y'all and teach you the proper, I'll give you a demo.

• 12:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, because it looks so elegant.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Well, the most important thing I can tell you is there's two sides of the injera. There's the top side, which is the part that cooks directly on the, on the clay. And then the top side, uh, like the one with the eyes, though, so we call it eyes in Ethiopia. The one with the hole, that's the part that cooks by steaming. So you always have to, when you're scooping, the side with the eyes is the one that's gonna catch the stuff. So that one should never be facing you. That's like barbaric.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  That's like, that's barbaric. Don't do that.

• 12:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my, I have so much to learn.

• 12:43Joe Flamm?

  I would never, I would never. Adrian would.

• 12:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Because I, because I don't know better. Like, I need somebody to teach me proper etiquette. I am a, I'm a true.

• 12:52Joe Flamm?

  Adrian is out here eating the eyes.

• 12:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm a ruffian.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Adrian, our next link up is gonna be injera demo.

• 13:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love it. Oh my gosh.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  And I'll actually, I will cook the Ethiopian food for you. We're not gonna go to a restaurant.

• 13:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  You have been threatening to do that for so long that I don't believe it's actually gonna happen, but you've said it now, so people hear it. I'm gonna have to hold you accountable.

• 13:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  All right. Well, you know, Fairyall, let's get into our first segment. And this is the one that we call fork it or forget it. It's where we look at food trends. It could be things on social media. It could be things in publications. And sometimes these trends work their way into restaurants. So we try to identify these trends early and decide whether it's something that we as chefs or professionals in the food industry think is valid, we want to try it, or if we're going to forget it and kick it to the curb. So for fork it or forget it today, have you seen crack burgers?

• 13:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love how both of you frowned up like that.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  I'm gonna need you to elaborate.

• 14:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, so a burger, but it's not just seasoned with salt and pepper. There is sour cream, baked chopped cooked bacon. There's ranch dry seasoning. It's essentially like a million ingredients that go into the ground beef before you griddle it or grill it.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  In the patty, so that you're making meatloaf. You're not even, that's not even a burger patty.

• 14:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thank you. Thank you. Okay.

• 14:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  So as a burger, should a burger have a ton of stuff in it for seasoning? Or are you forgetting that? Like, do you fork it that a burger should have lots of seasoning and components? Or should a burger be simple?

• 14:45Speaker 02

  I mean, I don't want to tell people what it is and what it ain't, but that ain't a burger. I don't know. Like, you bring in all the other stuff between the patty and the bun, not in the patty itself. That's how I feel. Like, that's not a burger patty. I feel like that's meatloaf territory.

• 15:03Joe Flamm?

  Like burgers are one of those things, like if you have it, I'll try it. And I don't care the setup. Like, I've been to a bar in Iowa City where they had a apartment fridge and like a back of the bar broiler. And the only thing they had for food there was a burger, a cheeseburger. And I was like, I gotta know. I gotta know what this is about. It fucking slap. But so like, I'll try it. I'm always like down to try a burger. But it's like, yeah, it's like you're making like you described French onion dip.

• 15:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 15:32Joe Flamm?

  Like that you're putting into a burger. And then I'm like, how does that thing sear? Like, you know what I mean? Cause it's like, we like, I mean, like we grind butter into our burgers at the steakhouse. It's delicious. You know what I mean? We're Midwest. That's how we.

• 15:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 15:45Joe Flamm?

  Um.

• 15:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  I've heard that. Right?

• 15:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  I've had those burgers.

• 15:49Joe Flamm?

  But I'm like, if you put like sour cream and all that shit in it, like, is it gonna sear right? Like, I feel like it's not gonna sear right. And I don't know. I've never done it. I've never been like, I should put some sour cream in this meat mix. Um, it's not a meatloaf. Like, yeah, like we fuck with some meatloaf. So I'll tell you that right now.

• 16:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love meatloaf.

• 16:06Joe Flamm?

  You know, we're, we're a meatloaf family meal restaurant, you know, every other week at least.

• 16:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  And when I saw this, I was like scrolling like on a doom scroll one night. And when I saw it, I was like, part of me wants to try it. But part of me got like this kind of PTSD flashback to making family meal one time. And I was seasoning the ground beef with like a little bit of garlic and onion powder. And salt and black pepper. And the chef started screaming at me. He was like, it's not a fucking meatloaf, cheater. What are you doing? And I was like, oh my God, yes, chef. Like, and that was just garlic powder and onion powder. So I was like, I saw the video. I was like, oh my God, no, like, no, it's not meatloaf.

• 16:46Joe Flamm?

  Right. I'm like, why wouldn't you just throw it on the bill? Like a burger with French onion dip on top of it? Like, that sounds kind of good to me. Like, I'm into that. You know what I mean? If you're like, I'm gonna give you a schmear of French onion dip on top of your, you know, burger. I'm like, okay, yeah, sure. Let's, let's ride. But like folding that into the burger, I don't know. I don't know.

• 17:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, so we're, we're, it seems like, wow, this, this might be a first. Three pretty unanimous decisions on forgetting it. But we would take a bite if somebody presented us.

• 17:15Joe Flamm?

  I'm gonna try it. I'd be ready to be, I'd be ready to be wrong on this one.

• 17:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  A hundred percent.

• 17:19Joe Flamm?

  I've been wrong before.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Same.

• 17:20Joe Flamm?

  But you know.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  I, I would also really, to your point, Joe, like I, I wanna see the whole process. Like, how are you searing that? How is it even binding? Like?

• 17:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, all right. Okay, so moving on. What's up next, Joe?

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Forget about it. We're forgetting it.

• 17:34Joe Flamm?

  Next. Next, it's vigilante justice time.

• 17:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 17:38Joe Flamm?

  We move into review, review. One of my favorite times of the week where we get the privilege, nay, the honor of clapping back on those one-star reviews that we are left at our places. So we've had a lot of fun with this one. People have been sending us to them. We've done some of mine. But whenever we have a guest, we like to offer them the opportunity to share one of theirs so that we can help you absolutely dunk on these clowns who are coming for you.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. So first of all, I gotta tell you, this is like an actual dream come true. I want you guys to keep inviting me on the show so I can read all these stupid ass reviews, okay? I've always had this dream. What's that show? It's one of the late-night shows where they have the celebrities read the mean tweets?

• 18:25Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. I forget what late-night show used to do that.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  I've always wanted to do it. Yeah, so thank you for giving me my moment.

• 18:32Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, this is your opportunity.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  All right, what you got, Fariyal?

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Okay, so this is a one-star review, but the most important thing, it's not even really the content of this review. The most important thing of this review is the date of the review. So this review came in October 13th of 2022. Now, let me tell you when we opened.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  Haven't heart opened for friends and family, so not even to the general public. November 11th, 2022. So this one-

• 19:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  What?

• 19:10Joe Flamm?

  Hell, hell, yeah. Let's ride.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  So this one-star review came almost an entire month before we opened the doors to anybody. And it goes, "Pretty appalling that this establishment would open up in such a diverse area like Chelsea. I'm sorry, but it's 2022, and I'm not gonna give my money to an establishment that hires their workers based on the color of their skin. Very disappointed."

• 19:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  What?

• 19:37Speaker 02

  I just wait, I want everybody who's not watching to know that Joe is massaging his temples right now.

• 19:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  And he's red, and he is legit red.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Okay, so I will give you a little bit of context. So the way we announced the opening of Haven Mar, we went big and the first publication to come out was in Vogue. And we gave an interview and Marcus talked about how the industry in general has been unfair to women of color. And he had the vision of opening a restaurant that gave us the spotlight. So the restaurant was going to be ran by women of color. That's the only thing that I could place this back to. Clearly, the person was very upset that we were giving the spotlight to women of color.

• 20:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, dear God.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  An entire month before we opened the restaurant, we got a one star review.

• 20:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I bet a hundred percent Mr. Whatever his name is, has not ever been to the restaurant. Probably not.

• 20:40Joe Flamm?

  Mr. Jimmy Fox said he was not coming. I don't think Mr. Jimmy Fox was like, you know what? Maybe that was a bad take.

• 20:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Let me give this place a try.

• 20:49Joe Flamm?

  I don't think he was sitting around talking to his boys and they were like, you know what, Jimmy? I think you're wrong on this one. I think maybe this is gonna be a really good restaurant. Maybe this is a really good idea. Also, the like, the double weird thing of like, so like, so

• 21:02Speaker 02

  Diverse?

• 21:03Joe Flamm?

  You know, like, women belong in the kitchen, but not the professional kitchen?

• 21:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thank you!

• 21:07Joe Flamm?

  Like, which kitchen are they supposed to be in? Which is the kitchen you want these women in? Like, you want women in the kitchen, but not like that kitchen? Just give me like, like, a different kitchen, you know what I mean?

• 21:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Just give me clear.

• 21:21Joe Flamm?

  Like, and I, I just, you know, like, which is so insane to me because there's like an Italian cuisine, they always talk about, like, there's this old famous chef who always says like, French chefs were great chefs because they learned from great chefs. They said, Italian chefs are better chefs because we learn from our grandmothers. And it's like, and I feel like, you know, it's like the grandmothers of most cultures who carried on the cuisine. So it's like, this idea... Of women like

• 21:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 21:48Joe Flamm?

  Lady the Kitchen should be so basic.

• 21:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 21:52Joe Flamm?

  It should be the absolute like, you know, I, I, I just like, I cannot wrap my head around being like, yeah, oh, you're gonna have a restaurant like you're gonna let women cook there?

• 22:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Run the show like, oh my god.

• 22:07Joe Flamm?

  That's men's.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  Is there in charge?

• 22:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. No. A bridge too far. So this actually, we were talking about something similar with the review that came out about Kabawa. And it was a good review and all that, but just the conversation coming up, Paul Carmichael's restaurant that opened downtown, the Mamafuko Restaurant. And talking about how, you know, price points for certain types of cuisine can be a hard sell sometimes. Like, does this person who left that review know that the restaurant has Ethiopian influence? You are Ethiopian. Does he know that you've worked at Noma? Does he know that like you were like your whole resume?

• 22:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  And so you know what, like we've actually, we've been campaigning for this also because platforms allow diners to leave reviews, but restaurants cannot leave reviews on diners. So share with us a story from your experience with bad guest behavior. What is the one star guest behavior you would review?

• 23:09Speaker 02

  I'm thinking of a very specific incident that happened that was a one star guest behavior. So I'll give you that. So this was about a year ago, we were dabbling with opening up for brunch. Adrian, you've been to the restaurant, Joe, we have four and a half stations. The half is the raw bar that I don't actually schedule a full-time person, but whoever's not in the weeds will shuck oysters and all that stuff. So when we first opened up for brunch, I was fully staffed. Four people, four line cooks, and I'd be in the past. And we have 140 seats. It wasn't busy enough, but I waited, you know? I got data for like about a month. Then I was like, all right, cool. I gotta tighten up my labor. So that entire week I was pulling up how many covers we would have for, for like brunch that weekend. And I was like, you know what?

• 23:54Speaker 02

  I'm just gonna do this with one guy. I'm gonna get my best line cook. He can do two stations. I could do two stations and expedite. We got this. Called everybody off the night before. We opened for brunch and we get 90 walk-ins.

• 24:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 24:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Always.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Ninety what, but like before we opened the doors, I see the line forming. And I'm like, okay, let me, I gotta prep more stuff. So I'm just like frantically prepping more stuff. And I will say for being severely understaffed. We did a pretty, pretty good job. Um, so our time tickets here for apps, three to five minutes, main, ten to fifteen minutes. Obviously, we're not hitting those marks. But everybody's having a great time. No one was upset. Everyone's chilling. My front of house staff, they're, you know, setting the right expectation. No one's upset. So this one guest.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Table fifty-four. So from the pass, we have chef's counter, three high tops. That is very, very interactive with the kitchen. And then to the right is, it's a dining room table. It's a booth, but. You can see into the kitchen very well. Like, you could communicate with that table. So this one table, it's a family of four. So it's a woman, I'm assuming her husband, and their two kids. And our front of house manager came to talk to me. He's like, hey chef, um, they're getting a little antsy. It's not enough to like cause a scene, but I'm like, cool, I got you. I'mma, I'mma rush their food. So I put it ahead of everybody, everybody else. We're making their food, whoop-de-whoop. Next thing you know, I see this woman stand up on the booth.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Stand up on the booth and yell into the kitchen, where is our food?

• 25:52Speaker 02

  When I tell you, everything just went blank. I was like, I was like a tiger getting let out of the cage.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Like, everything just went blank for me.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  When I tell you I put everything down, towel, apron, I was leaving my pass to go talk to the guests. And the front of house manager runs and puts me back in the kitchen. Chef, I got it. Chef, I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it.

• 26:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  You're like, oh, don't push me because I'm close to the edge.

• 26:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Let me limber up for this one.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Yo, she stood up on the booth and I was like, you're with your children also. So you're letting them know that this is acceptable behavior.

• 26:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  This is not acceptable behavior to stand up on the booth and yell into my kitchen, where is our food? That, that's not even one star. That's like negative star behavior.

• 26:44Joe Flamm?

  I would have thrown them out right then. I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I'll tell you where it is. Get the fuck out.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  And, and like, if it, if it was truly something egregious, I'm going to own up to it, obviously.

• 26:54Joe Flamm?

  No doubt.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  There were table like 20 to 25, come on, man, like 20.

• 26:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, hey, listen, if you're like, hey, we've really been waiting. I will be like, I'll be the first one to be like, you know what? I'm so sorry. Like, you know what I mean? We're having a bad day. Like this took forever. Like, let me take care of this. Like, here's my card. Let me know next time you're coming in. You know, I'm sorry. This one was weird, whatever. But it's like, I just can't stand the like, if you're going to yell at someone in my restaurant, it's like, I'm not yelling at anyone in my restaurant. There's no fucking way you're coming in here and yelling at people in my restaurant. You know what I mean? Like, unless you got like a Cubs hat on, then fine, whatever the fuck down. It's like, anything else, it's kind of off limits.

• 27:38Joe Flamm?

  All right, we're going to keep it rolling. The one, one last thing that we'd love to do before you go. This is one of my favorite things. This is our, uh, walking confession.

• 27:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 27:48Joe Flamm?

  So this is where we share those stories where they're either, when we're coming up, the mistakes we made that we, you know, like, we may have never shared, but we definitely never forgotten about. Um, or those services where it's like, everything went sideways and you somehow, some way made it work, or you didn't make it work and had to shut it the fuck down. But, um, we were wondering if you would share one from your, your vault today, chef?

• 28:13Speaker 02

  Yo, I, okay, I actually have one. You know, when you're talking about your story, when you're butchering the pig and you like stab yourself? I have a very similar one where I cut 90% of the tendon on my thumb. When I was a butchering one, one day, but I was still really new. So I was like, I'm not gonna abandon the shift. So I like wrapped it up with like eighteen Band-Aids. Finished my shift, went to the hospital. I thought it was stitches, but I got like surgery. They're like emergency surgery before you lose your thumb. But that's not the one I'm gonna tell. That's not good enough? That's not, that's not good enough. I, I wanna tell, you know, just like the really dumb shit you do when you, when you're very new to the game.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Okay, so uh, many moons ago, I worked for Hillstone Restaurant Group. And even before you can get to sous chef, there's four and a half months of training. So this took place within that four and a half month uh, training period. And I was at this restaurant where the chef was just like, you guys remember back in the day, like, the really mean chef that just makes you feel like an idiot every day. No matter what you do, you are the dumbest human being on earth. Like to the point where we made his name a verb. Like, damn, you got chef'd today. Yeah.

• 29:38Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Oh, so sorry. So he was one of those guys. And on this particular day, he was being very nice and took me under his wing. He was teaching me how to do the smoked salmon on the menu. And we always did it every day. Start off with a whole salmon, so he was teaching me how to butcher the salmon. Take the filet, uh, uh, take the side of the salmon, cure it for a couple hours. And then he was teaching me very, very step by step, how to get the perfect smoke on it. So how much of the wood chip should be big pieces versus little pieces? Like, he was really taking his time trying to teach me. And then the smoker, we had, uh, it was outside the restaurant. So because there's very little storage space inside the restaurant,

• 30:22Speaker 02

  they've built an entire shed outside where all the dry goods and wine and all that stuff was stored. And the smoker was right next to the shed.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  So he took me through this entire process. And then we're back in the kitchen and like forty-five minutes in, he's like, uh, Terry, I'll go check on the salmon. Uh, let me know how it is. So I'm like, man, chef is like really working with me today. I'm so excited. So I go, I open the smoker and it's in flames. And my brain is not computing this. Like, I'm like, I don't think this thing is supposed to be on fire.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Smoke, right? It's not a fire cook salmon? Is it? Nothing that I learned in culinary school is telling me, uh, I don't think this is right. So I like, I close it. I'm like, also the shed is all wood. There's so much alcohol. This whole thing is about to blow up. And also you're, I'm also having to tell the chef that he messed up. Like, he's the one who did this, right? So I'm terrified. So I go back in there. And he's like, well, like, how was it? And I just couldn't get the words out. And he's just looking at me and he's like, how, what? How, like, did you check on it? And I just go like this, fire?

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Question mark. I'm like, fire? He's like, what are you saying? I'm like, uh, chef, is there supposed to be flames? He's like, what are you saying? I'm like, chef, it's on fire!

• 31:56Speaker 02

  And we all run out.

• 31:59Joe Flamm?

  I don't know how to put this.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  En fuego.

• 32:03Joe Flamm?

  We're all about to die.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  It's gonna blow. I just could not get it out. He was like, what's going on? I'm like, fire? Like, like Ron Burgundy?

• 32:19Speaker 02

  That's all I could say. I'm like, fire? Like, I'm not gonna tell the chef he fucked up. I was so scared. We were about to lose that entire restaurant to a fire because I did not have the guts to tell the chef that he fucked up.

• 32:32Joe Flamm?

  That's wild. He's like, what's going on? You're like, depends what you're lead by that. Like, it's not raining, if that's what you're asking. There's

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Weather is fine.

• 32:42Joe Flamm?

  Forecast is good, good, good. Salmon, not so good. Not, not good, not good. Very on fire.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Fracture.

• 32:50Joe Flamm?

  Very much so on fire. Shed next to it and a lot of danger. I probably should have led with that.

• 32:57Joe Flamm?

  Probably should have led with the whole fire thing. I see, I see where you're mad now.

• 33:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Fire extinguisher?

• 33:03Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 33:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  I was working at a restaurant one time and they were burning bones out back because they used it to make bone china. Like literal.

• 33:12Joe Flamm?

  What do you mean they're burning? What restaurant? What? That's not the song.

• 33:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Where were you working? What?

• 33:19Joe Flamm?

  Who's bones?

• 33:22Joe Flamm?

  What kind of like old school southeast side shit is this where it's like, yeah, you know, the one order, sometimes you'd have extra bones and we'd burn the bones and we'd make plates and he'd say something about you couldn't test plates for DNA. I don't know.

• 33:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, you know. They make china. Yeah. I mean, they were making bone china. This was up at Blue Hill Stone Barns. I was up there doing a, like a residency program. And so every so often they collect enough bones, they make bone china.

• 33:49Joe Flamm?

  They sacrificed one of the interns and they make bone china. It's part of the Blue Hill experience.

• 33:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's what you sign up for right now.

• 33:56Joe Flamm?

  This is, this is the Dave line?

• 34:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  And they were, this thing was going out back and in the first 15 minutes of lunch service, starting one day, and we had a couple like VIP tables in the house, some chefs who had come up that I was so excited to be able to cook for. Everything just fills with smoke. The whole dining room, the kitchen, the bathrooms, the fire alarms in the entire restaurant just start going off. Luckily the sprinklers and the ansel didn't go off, but everything is full of smoke. It's like you can hardly see anything. First few tables were in, they got them out so fast. The kitchen evacuated out of the back door.

• 34:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  It was the, the bone china was just, it was too close to the building and it was venting into one of the bathrooms, which then carried all the smoke into the entire building.

• 34:58Speaker 02

  Also, why am I picturing it to, what does burning bones smell like? I can't imagine.

• 35:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's pretty neutral. I mean, at that point, it's just black smoke. It doesn't smell like anything but smoke. It was just like, there's no meat on bones.

• 35:10Joe Flamm?

  If you're like Adrian, you've gotten rid of enough bones in the New York countryside, you know, you go numb to it.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Sounds tired, okay. Sounds like Chicago coming out.

• 35:20Joe Flamm?

  She's like, oh, we're burning bones? Alright, I'll burn the bones.

• 35:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, whatever.

• 35:22Joe Flamm?

  She's like, did you pull the teeth out already? They're like, what? She's like, nevermind.

• 35:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Don't worry about it. No, forget it.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 35:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, it was insane. It was like, somebody left it too close to the building and it just, everything that could go wrong. And like Joe said, like, I walked out there when we all evacuated, I was like, I, I, I don't know how to do this. It's not like, I'm here on a residency program. I'm like, I don't know the layout. I don't know what is and is not supposed to happen. I thought the thing was supposed to be there. Like, that's where it was. Like, I didn't start the fire, but it just, I was like, how do I unfuck this? And I had no idea.

• 35:59Joe Flamm?

  Right. You should have read that chapter in La Technique where he talks about how far away from the building to burn bones. I think it's right after the artichoke full napkin. It's like, the next one is like, this is how far away from the building to burn bones. I think Jacques Pepin has a great, a great picture on it.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Adrian, that story does remind me of the time my hood system went down and Pete Wells was in my restaurant. Yeah. Could not, uh, yeah, I could not cook for him. I'm like, I'm sorry. My kitchen is not up for, yeah.

• 36:30Joe Flamm?

  That's brutal. That is like, that's like, that's not real life. That's a nightmare you have.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  That's like a scene from a movie.

• 36:36Joe Flamm?

  Right. Where you would be like, if that was a scene from a movie, you'd be like, this is such bullshit. This would never fucking happen. You know, you'd never lose your hood. And it's like, yeah, no, that shit happens. And you're like, well, I guess this is it. This was a nice career while I had it.

• 36:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Was Pete Wells at least like forgiving, like understanding? How did that play out?

• 36:56Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, he was actually, uh, he was one of the first reservations and then it, it all went down and I'm like, I'm, I'm just not cooking. I, I don't care who it is. My kitchen, my staff is in, is in danger. And he ended up being one of the last tables to leave. Like, he was there for about four hours having a grand old time. I mean, we, I gave him everything from garminge. He had a grand old time, wrote us a really nice review.

• 37:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that's awesome.

• 37:21Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, like, welcome to my sushi pop-up.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 37:26Joe Flamm?

  I hope you have great.

• 37:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Bar for everybody.

• 37:28Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 37:29Joe Flamm?

  Some pie.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  You are now in Omakase land. I will slice everything in front of you, sir. Here you go.

• 37:35Joe Flamm?

  Origato gozaimas, Pete Wells.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 37:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  Nice, Joe. Well, you know what, Ferriall, I see you look like you have a buzzing kitchen behind you. So we are gonna let you get back to it. Thank you, Chef, so much for joining us today.

• 37:51Joe Flamm?

  Thank you so, so much for your time. You are an absolute blast. I'm so excited to have you as a new best friend. And I can't wait for us to hang out in New York and for you to feed me and cheeties.

• 38:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  And Ferriall, tell everybody where they can find you on socials, in real life, all that fun stuff.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  So in real life, you can catch me at Haven Mar in Chelsea, New York. Online, you can find me on Instagram at Ferriall Abdo.

• 38:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Follow along with all your Met Gala exploits and fun stuff.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  I do some cool shit every now and then.

• 38:23Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it's awesome. It's awesome. Well, we're rooting for you. We love it and we can't wait to see you in New York. Keep absolutely crushing it and try not to burn the place down.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  I'll try. Fire?

• 38:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Fire?

• 38:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, tell everybody where they can find you.

• 38:44Joe Flamm?

  Age, you can find me in Chicago, of course, at Boulevard Steakhouse, at Roseberry, and at Il Carchofo. And if you want to find me online, I'm at Insta Flam. Age, how do they track you down when you're Mrs. Worldwide?

• 38:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  You can find me at Chef Adrian Cheatham on the Gram. You can also check out the Sunday Best Cookbook. And Sunday Best Pop-Ups will be coming back in this next year. So that dinner series, I miss it. I miss cooking. I miss being in the kitchen with people. It's been too long, so the pop-ups are coming back.

• 39:19Joe Flamm?

  I'm Joe Flamm and for Adrian Cheatham, thank you so much for joining us. I'm the Chef Scott.

• 39:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Life beyond the past.