#615: Dr. Andrew Weil — The 4-7-8 Breath Method, Cannabis, The Uses of Coca Leaf, Rehabilitating Demonized Plants, Kava for Anxiety, Lessons from Wade Davis, The Psychedelic Renaissance, How to Emerge from Depression, Tales from 50+ Visits to Japan, Matcha Benefits, and More

Dr. Andrew Weil — The 4-7-8 Breath Method, Cannabis, The Uses of Coca Leaf, Rehabilitating Demonized Plants, Kava for Anxiety, Lessons from Wade Davis, The Psychedelic Renaissance, How to Emerge from Depression, Tales from 50+ Visits to Japan, Matcha Benefits, and More | Brought to you by Levels http://levels.link/tim real-time feedback on how diet impacts your health, Athletic Greens http://athleticgreens.com/tim all-in-one nutritional supplement, and LMNT http://drinklmnt.com/tim electrolyte supplement. More on all three below. Andrew Weil, MD (@DrWeil https://twitter.com/DrWeil/) is a pioneer in the field of integrative medicine. He has been named one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time magazine. Dr. Weil received a degree in biology (botany) from Harvard College in 1964 and an MD from Harvard Medical School in 1968. From 1971 to 1975, as a fellow of the Institute of Current World Affairs, Dr. Weil traveled widely in North and South America and Africa collecting information on drug use in other cultures, medicinal plants, and alternative methods of treating disease. From 1971 to 1984 he was on the research staff of the Harvard Botanical Museum and conducted investigations of medicinal and psychoactive plants. Dr. Weil is the founder and director of the Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona https://integrativemedicine.arizona.edu/, where he also holds the Lovell-Jones Endowed Chair in Integrative Medicine and is Clinical Professor of Medicine and Professor of Public Health. Through its fellowship and Integrative Medicine in Residency curricula, the Center is now training doctors and nurse practitioners around the world. A New York Times best-selling author, Dr. Weil has written 15 books on health and well-being, including Mind Over Meds https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Over-Meds-Necessary-Alternatives/dp/0316552410/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1544080397&sr=8-1&keywords=Mind+Over+Meds:+Know+When+Drugs+Are+Necessary&linkCode=ll1&tag=offsitoftimfe-20&linkId=de71a00362635bb30458e7c072189fe6&language=en_US; Fast Food, Good Food https://www.amazon.com/Fast-Food-Good-Healthy-Delicious/dp/0316329428/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1544080550&sr=8-1&keywords=Fast+Food,+Good+Food&linkCode=ll1&tag=offsitoftimfe-20&linkId=1b0258c9514a414612742170a6eb32b6&language=en_US; True Food https://www.amazon.com/True-Food-Seasonal-Sustainable-Simple/dp/0316129402/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1544080677&sr=8-1&keywords=True+Food:+Seasonal,+Sustainable,+Simple,+Pure&linkCode=ll1&tag=offsitoftimfe-20&linkId=a4b788bca9a410cd489c9ad1755f2478&language=en_US; Spontaneous Happiness https://www.amazon.com/Spontaneous-Happiness-Path-Emotional-Well-Being/dp/0316129429/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1544080789&sr=8-1&keywords=Spontaneous+Happiness&linkCode=ll1&tag=offsitoftimfe-20&linkId=e57f0f6878589aff3232f56c376c270f&language=en_US; Healthy Aging https://www.amazon.com/Healthy-Aging-Lifelong-Guide-Well-Being/dp/0307277542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1544080882&sr=8-3&keywords=Healthy+Aging&linkCode=ll1&tag=offsitoftimfe-20&linkId=a5f053c6f7db5771e9c59b2421ff9b9b&language=en_US; and Eight Weeks to Optimum Health https://www.amazon.com/Weeks-Optimum-Health-Program-Advantage/dp/034549802X/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1544080957&sr=8-1&keywords=Eight+Weeks+to+Optimum+Health&linkCode=ll1&tag=offsitoftimfe-20&linkId=1a3feca3bfe9248219dbc25a199eb534&language=en_US. He is also co-founder of the restaurant chain True Food Kitchen and co-founder of Matcha.com https://matcha.com/, which offers extremely high-quality matcha that is difficult to find outside of Japan. Please enjoy! This episode is brought to you by Levels http://levels.link/tim! I wrote about the health benefits of using continuous glucose monitors (CGMs) more than ten years ago in The 4-Hour Body. At the time, CGMs were primitive and hard to use. Levels has now made this technology, and the unique insights that come from it, easy and available to everyone. Levels http://levels.link/tim is making glucose monitoring simple, helping you see how food affects your health through real-time feedback. I started tracking my glucose years ago to learn more about what I should and shouldn’t be eating (including quantities, time of day, etc.), based on objective data from my own, unique physiology. Keeping my blood sugar stable is critical to my daily and long-term health and performance goals. Furthermore, poor glucose control is associated with a number of chronic conditions like diabetes, Alzheimer’s disease, heart disease, and obesity. It’s important. If you’re interested in learning more about Levels and trying a CGM yourself, go to Levels.link/Tim http://levels.link/tim. * This episode is also brought to you by LMNT http://drinklmnt.com/tim! What is LMNT? It’s a delicious, sugar-free electrolyte drink mix http://drinklmnt.com/tim. I’ve stocked up on boxes and boxes of this and usually use it 1–2 times per day. LMNT http://drinklmnt.com/tim is formulated to help anyone with their electrolyte needs and perfectly suited to folks following a keto, low-carb, or Paleo diet. If you are on a low-carb diet or fasting, electrolytes play a key role in relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. LMNT http://drinklmnt.com/Tim came up with a very special offer for you, my dear listeners. For a limited time, you can get a free LMNT http://drinklmnt.com/Tim Sample Pack with any purchase. This special offer is available here: DrinkLMNT.com/Tim http://drinklmnt.com/Tim. * This episode is also brought to you by Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim. I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1 https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim by Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. Right now, Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and five free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product. * [07:56] What is the 4-7-8 breath? [10:15] As an early advocate, what is Dr. Weil’s current relationship with cannabis? [11:28] Overcoming the stigma of coca leaves to realize their medical benefits. [14:17] What is The Beneficial Plants Research Association? [16:30] Thoughts on kava and its effect on sleep quality. [19:49] Where to learn more about kratom and mitragynine. [20:51] Andrew’s experience with Bufo alvarius. [22:05] Why Andrew and Wade Davis are reviving The Beneficial Plants Research Association. [25:27] Andrew recounts a Richard Evans Schultes story. [27:13] Andrew’s brief career as a letter-writing prankster. [29:06] Covering the first wave of psychedelic research at Harvard. [34:15] The positives and negatives of psychedelics going mainstream. [36:11] Taxonomy and the origin of Psilocybe weilii. [37:58] How did Andrew emerge from dysthymia in his early fifties? [39:54] Lessons learned on visits to Japan and Okinawa. [45:19] Health benefits of fermented turmeric and matcha tea. [49:50] How L-theanine modifies the effects of caffeine. [52:19] How Andrew’s parents encouraged him to always be curious (but careful). [55:36] Getting older and future plans. [58:11] Why you should check out The Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine. [58:54] What Andrew believes gets missed most by current psychedelic exploration. [1:02:00] Parting thoughts. * For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors http://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferriss http://linkedin.com/in/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Element, spelled L-M-N-T. What on earth is Element? It is a delicious, sugar-free electrolyte drink mix. I've stocked up on boxes and boxes of this. It was one of the first things that I bought when I saw COVID coming down the pike. And I usually use one to two per day. Element is formulated to help anyone with their electrolyte needs and perfectly suited to folks following a keto, low carb, or paleo diet. Or if you drink a ton of water and you might not have the right balance, that's often when I drink it, or if you're doing any type of endurance exercise, mountain biking, et cetera, another application. If you've ever struggled to feel good on keto, low carb, or paleo, it's most likely because even if you're consciously consuming electrolytes, you're just not getting enough.

• 0:43Tim Ferriss?

  And it relates to a bunch of stuff like a hormone called aldosterone, blah, blah, blah, when insulin is low. But suffice to say, this is where Element, again spelled L-M-N-T, can help. My favorite flavor by far is citrus salt, which, as a side note, you can also use to make a kick-ass, no-sugar margarita, but for special occasions, obviously. You're probably already familiar with one of the names behind it, Rob Wolf, R-O-B-B, Rob Wolf, who is a former research biochemist and two-time New York Times bestselling author of The Paleo Solution and Wired to Eat. Rob created Element by scratching his own itch. That's how it got started. His Brazilian jiu-jitsu coaches turned him on to electrolytes as a performance enhancer. Things clicked and bam, company was born.

• 1:28Tim Ferriss?

  So if you're on a low carb diet or fasting, electrolytes play a key role in relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. Sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, all that's garbage, unneeded. There's none of that in Element. And a lot of names you might recognize are already using Element. It was recommended to me by one of my favorite athlete friends. Three Navy SEAL teams, as prescribed by their Master Chief, Marine units, FBI sniper teams, at least five NFL teams who have subscriptions. They are the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA Weightlifting and on and on. You can try it risk-free. If you don't like it, Element will give you your money back, no questions asked. They have extremely low return rates. For a limited time, you can get a free Element sample pack with any purchase. It's the perfect way to try all of their flavors.

• 2:13Tim Ferriss?

  Or if you're feeling generous, sharing with a friend who might enjoy. This special offer is available here at this link, drinklmnt.com/tim. That's drink Element, again, drinklmnt.com/tim.

• 2:31Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Levels. Very excited about this one. I wrote about the health benefits of using continuous glucose monitors, CGMs, more than 10 years ago in the four-hour body. And at that time, CGMs were horribly primitive and hard to use, super painful. Levels has now made this technology and the insights that come from it easy and available to everyone. Putting in the sensors, everything about it is smooth, easy. I found it completely painless. And I started tracking my glucose way back in the day to learn more about what I should and shouldn't be eating. Keeping my blood sugar stable is critical to my daily and long-term health and performance goals. With Levels, you can see how different foods affect your health with real-time feedback.

• 3:15Tim Ferriss?

  Poor glucose control, which you don't want, is associated with a number of chronic conditions, not just diabetes, but also Alzheimer's and heart disease. It can impact your mood, certainly affects my mood, energy levels, right? That work in the afternoon, that dip that you feel, for instance, that's just one example, and weight management. And we all respond differently, sometimes a little bit, sometimes vastly differently, even to the same foods. So one type of carbohydrate that my body might process well, let's say that's fruit, or rice, or sweet potato, your body might not. The Levels app interprets your glucose data and provides a simple score after you eat a meal. So you can see how different foods affect you and then develop a personalized diet that's right for you and your goals. Seeing this data in real time, at least for me

• 3:59Tim Ferriss?

  and for so many others who use Levels, is a really powerful behavioral change mechanism. And many of the guests on the podcast have talked about this. Marco Canora, famous chef, used Levels to determine that, say, walking for him, just a few hundred steps after a meal significantly affected his glucose levels. Levels is backed by a world-class team and group of advisors, including names you've likely heard before, including repeat podcast guest Dr. Dom DiAgostino and many others. If you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a CGM yourself, learn all about it. Go to levels.link/tim. That's levels.

• 4:39Tim Ferriss?

  dot link slash Tim, I'll spell it out, L E V E L S dot L I N K slash Tim. Check them out today. I highly encourage you to consider getting this data on your own personal responses to the food that you eat, the food that maybe you shouldn't eat, the food that you might want to eat more of. All of these things you can learn and that is at levels dot link slash Tim. You can also find the link in this episode's description.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Can I answer your personal question?

• 5:16Speaker 03

  No, I would have seen it before.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 5:33Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, lemurs and squirrels. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. My guest today is Andrew Weil, M.D. He is a pioneer in the field of integrative medicine. He has also been named one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time Magazine. So let's cover some backstory. Dr. Weil received a degree in biology, in this case botany. That was the focus from Harvard College in 1964 and an M.D. from Harvard Medical School in 1968. I'll skip some of his bio, which we cover a lot in the first ever conversation we had on this podcast, but from 1971 to 75, as a Fellow of the Institute of Current World Affairs, Dr. Weil traveled all over the place in North and South America and Africa, collecting

• 6:15Tim Ferriss?

  information on drug use in other cultures, medicinal plants, and alternative methods of treating disease. From 71 to 84, he was on the research staff of the Harvard Botanical Museum and conducted investigations of medicinal and psychoactive plants. He really knows what he's talking about. Dr. Weil is the founder and director of the Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona, where he also holds the Lovell Jones Endowed Chair in Integrative Medicine. He is a clinical professor of medicine and professor of public health. He is a fantastic communicator. Through its fellowship in integrative medicine in residence Curricula, the center is now training doctors and nurse practitioners all over the world. And your times bestselling author, Dr. While is the author of 15 books on health

• 6:58Tim Ferriss?

  and wellbeing. I don't know how you have the longevity and endurance to write 15 books. I petered out after five, but he has written many, and I'll just mention a few mind over meds, fast food, good food, true food. That name will come up again spontaneous, happiness, healthy aging, and eight weeks to optimum health. He's also co-founder of the restaurant train, True Food Kitchen. I go there often in Austin, Texas, and co-founder of matcha.com. That is M A T C H A dot com, which offers extremely high quality matcha that is difficult to find outside of Japan. You can find him on all the socials, Dr. While that's D R W E I L. That is also the website, Dr. While dot com. You can find the matcha.com company

• 7:40Tim Ferriss?

  at said URL and also on Instagram at matcha Kari K A R I. And without further ado, please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with none other than Andrew Weil, M D.

• 7:56Tim Ferriss?

  Andy, welcome back to the show. It's nice to see you again.

• 7:58Andrew Weil?

  Yeah, thanks, Tim. Good to see you.

• 8:00Tim Ferriss?

  And I thought I would start with a little revisitation to one takeaway from our last conversation. And for people who didn't hear the first conversation, I want to recommend they do go back and listen because we cover a lot of biographical information and many different nooks and crannies that we won't cover this conversation. Okay, there's one, which was the four, seven, eight breath that I believe you learned from Dr. Robert Fulford, who was, if I remember correctly, an osteopath. Am I getting that right?

• 8:27Andrew Weil?

  Correct, correct.

• 8:28Tim Ferriss?

  Do you still use the four, seven, eight breath?

• 8:32Andrew Weil?

  Well, I do it myself regularly. I do it a number of times a day. I teach it to almost everyone I meet. I teach it to all the doctors I train. I teach it to patients. Whenever I get the chance, I do it when I give talks often end by doing it. I don't remember whether I told you last time I was invited by the NSA to come in. And this was a few years ago, out of the blue, the NSA asked me if I would come and talk to them about stress. And how to manage it. So it was an audience of about a thousand and then it was telecast to remote sites around the world and I had them all doing the four seven eight breath, which was very satisfying.

• 9:07Tim Ferriss?

  Could you recap just for folks what the four seven eight breath is, just the format of it, and then what it accomplishes? Because I did it earlier today and found it to be such a rapid state change mechanism. I had felt neglectful for not doing it more often since our last conversation, but if you could just do a recap.

• 9:25Andrew Weil?

  Sure. First of all, if people just will Google my name and four seven eight on YouTube, you'll find videos of me doing it, which gives details. And the last I looked, there were millions of hits on that YouTube thing. Anyway, the the basic technique is to breathe quietly in through the nose to a count of four, hold the breath for a count of seven, and then forcibly blow air out through the mouth for a count of eight, and repeat that for four breath cycles when you're first learning it. Eventually, you can go up to eight breath cycles, but no more than that. And to do this religiously at least twice a day. And the real effects come after doing this regularly for four to six weeks. And they're really remarkable. This is the most powerful method I've found to access the

• 10:09Andrew Weil?

  relaxation response. And it's the most powerful anti-anxiety measure I've ever come across.

• 10:15Tim Ferriss?

  Let's talk about perhaps another tool that people might associate with stress alleviation, or at least some people use it for that. But you were one of the earliest public advocates of cannabis, and advised Congress on early cannabis policy, and also conducted and published human trials with cannabis. Your personal relationship to cannabis has changed over the decades. And I'd be curious to know what your current use, if any, looks like, and for what purpose you use cannabis.

• 10:48Andrew Weil?

  I don't use it at all, Tim, and I have not used it for probably 20, 25 years. And my relationships changed so dramatically over the years in my twenties, late twenties, early thirties, it was a source of great fun and pleasure and really stimulated my creativity, helped me write. Then I think gradually it turned into more of an introspective experience. And then somewhere in my late thirties, early forties, I really stopped getting useful effects from it and I found it just made me groggy and sedated. And I kept using it even though I wasn't getting any valuable effects and finally stopped. And now, you know, I just haven't used it in a long time. It has no interest for me.

• 11:28Tim Ferriss?

  Are there any particular tools that you use, plants or otherwise, for writing? I imagine you still do a fair amount of writing. Is there anything that has filled that gap for you?

• 11:40Andrew Weil?

  One is matcha green tea and the other is coca leaf. As you know, I'm a great fan of coca leaf and I've worked for many years to try to rehabilitate coca, to teach people the differences between coca and cocaine. And I'm delighted to see finally, after all this time, there is some momentum building around legalizing coca, making it available.

• 12:01Tim Ferriss?

  What is that momentum? If you could speak to it, because I've had very limited exposure to coca, but it was given to me when I suffered from altitude sickness in South America. And I mean, literally within 45 minutes, my symptoms had all but vanished. It was incredible to experience the effects firsthand. But what momentum, what changes are you seeing in the United States?

• 12:24Andrew Weil?

  Well, first of all, there's a lot of changes in Colombia and in other countries. And in this country too, there are groups forming, really working to legalize coca, to make it medically available, to make it available to people, to teach people the differences between coke and cocaine. One group that I've been doing some work with that you may know of is the River Styx Foundation.

• 12:43Tim Ferriss?

  I do.

• 12:44Andrew Weil?

  Yeah.

• 12:45Tim Ferriss?

  Cody Swift as director.

• 12:46Andrew Weil?

  Cody Swift. And they're very interested in trying to fund coca research to document some of the medical benefits. But it's the first time in 40 some years that I've seen any change in attitudes up here. I think it would be a great thing for people to have access to coca. It's not cocaine. It has distinct effects. It has unique medical effects. We should have access to it. Not to mention the fact that this is the sacred plant of a great many indigenous people in South America, and it has been so demonized by our society. And I think, given all the momentum around looking at indigenous cultures and rights, that this also plays into this of rehabilitating the sacred leaf.

• 13:30Tim Ferriss?

  I agree with that 100%. And I want to give River6 Foundation, Cody Swift and his team also a nod for their work with respect to an organization called the Indigenous Peyote Conservation Initiative, IPCI, which purchased a tract of land in Texas, so not too far from where I live, although Texas is effectively a country. It's gigantic. So don't underestimate drive time. And it has become such a symbol of hope for so many Native American groups throughout the United States, including groups who historically would not necessarily automatically get along. It's been this unifying, catalyzing project.

• 14:15Tim Ferriss?

  So I want to give them a nod for that. Could you speak to and explain the Beneficial Plants Research Association?

• 14:23Andrew Weil?

  This is a, well, it's a research foundation that I started in 1979, way ahead of its time. We had a stellar advisory board, including Dick Schultes, Albert Hofmann, Alexander Schulgen. I mean, it was amazing advisory group. And the purpose of this was to look at plants that had been neglected or unrecognized that could be of great benefit up here. Starting with coca was one of the main ones, but we looked at other kinds of stimulants, cava, which at that time was relatively unknown. So the idea was to get research going on these, to teach people about them. And as I say, it was just way ahead of its time. So eventually we folded, but I'm really interested in resurrecting this and a common

• 15:08Andrew Weil?

  Interest of Cody Swift and mine is looking at demonized plants. And my feeling has always been, you know, a theme of my writing has been that there are no good or bad drugs. There are just good and bad relationships with drugs. And I think you can broaden that to plants as well. And coca being a prime example, we've said that is a bad plant, you know, the source of of all sorts of trouble. But the problem is how we've related to that plant, taking cocaine out of it and making that available. And I think if you look at, there's a whole bunch of other plants that we consider problematic. And it's really how we've related to them. That's the problem. And I think it would be interesting to try to rehabilitate some, just as an example, things

• 15:50Andrew Weil?

  like ephedra and cot, opium poppies, tobacco even, that it's our misuses of these that have caused trouble. It's not the plant itself.

• 16:01Tim Ferriss?

  I was going to mention the last tobacco, which I never thought in a million years I would develop an interest in because I grew up hating smoking and everything related to cigarette smoking. But after spending more time in South America and reading books, I'm going to get the title wrong, but it's something like Tobacco and Shamanism in South America. I think it's Johannes Wilbert or Johannes. Excellent book, very dense. It's not light reading for people who are looking for something to snack on before bed. It's probably not the book. But let me come back to one that you mentioned, and that is kava. So a friend of mine reached out to me recently to get my two cents on a new supplement that he is taking in place of his evening cocktail.

• 16:44Tim Ferriss?

  So he's decided, he's in his seventies and has decided to cut back on alcohol intake because he sees how alcohol affects his sleep, using an aura ring and other devices. And he's switched to this supplement, which contains two things, kratom and kava. And I know very little about kava. Kratom, I have some thoughts on. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on. Contains metrogynine, seems to hit opiate receptors. So I believe there are people who abuse kratom who have now developed dependencies that are in rehab. At least I've heard some stories related to that. But I know far less about kava. Would you mind elaborating on kava?

• 17:23Andrew Weil?

  Kava is the major psychoactive plant that's used in Oceania, in many islands throughout the Pacific. It's the very large root of a large plant in the black pepper family. And it is, has unique chemistry. In many of these islands, people make a beverage from it, originally by chewing the root and spitting it into a bowl and mixing it with water or coconut juice, or now more often drying it and powdering it and mixing it into a liquid. And it is, functions as a social stimulant and lubricant, but it is a natural sedative and calmative, and probably the most important anti-anxiety natural product out there.

• 18:08Andrew Weil?

  Extremely useful and essentially no toxicity. And so it does not interact with alcohol, it does not interact with other sedatives. It's quite safe and I recommend it very frequently to people.

• 18:20Tim Ferriss?

  Do you know what effect, if any, it has on sleep quality? My friend has this subjective experience of it helping him to wind down and go to sleep, but I wonder what effect it has on sleep quality? Because you look at some, say, sleep aids like Ambien and so on, which help you to fall asleep, but they affect the cycles of sleep in depth.

• 18:40Andrew Weil?

  That's putting it mildly, you know, all of these, all of these sleep aids.

• 18:44Tim Ferriss?

  Understatement.

• 18:45Andrew Weil?

  Whether over the counter or prescribed, I think are dangerous drugs. First of all, they don't reproduce natural sleep. All of them suppress dreaming, which is an essential component of good sleep. They distort sleep architecture, they're addictive, and they interfere with cognitive function. So I think there's really no justification for using them unless for very short-term use because of situational insomnia. But Kava has none of these ill effects, it can be used long-term regularly. I don't know that we have good studies on how it affects sleep quality, but I don't know of any indications that it has any of those adverse effects that the usual sleep aids do.

• 19:25Tim Ferriss?

  And I suppose I should actually just go back to my friend who is granted tracking imperfectly, but he's tracking his sleep with the Oura Ring that does capture some biometric data that is interpolated to...

• 19:41Tim Ferriss?

  Land on percentage of sleep as different phases, including REM and so on. So I should actually just go back to him.

• 19:49Andrew Weil?

  But the problem, Tim, is that he's using kratom also, which is a significant agent. And we really would like to see this with Kava along what it does.

• 19:58Tim Ferriss?

  So could you expand on that, please?

• 19:59Andrew Weil?

  I don't know that much about kratom. It's been used in Indonesia where it's native to help people break opioid dependence. And it has sedative effects and opioid-like effects. I think there is a downside to it and some concern about people using it in not good ways. But I'm not an expert on kratom.

• 20:23Tim Ferriss?

  I'll mention to folks who are interested in perhaps learning a bit more about it, there's a good episode of Hamilton's Pharmacopeia, pharmacopeia, I never know how to pronounce that second word, that covers kratom and metrogynine and goes into the chemistry and the history, which, and also environmental costs, depending on how these things are harvested, which I can recommend to folks. That can be found wherever you find your finest videos, Amazon Prime and other places for sure. Since I invoke the name of Hamilton Morris, I want to actually jump into a separate episode of his where he attempts to identify the first known use of Bufo alvarius. So the Sonoran Desert.

• 21:05Andrew Weil?

  Yes, I remember that.

• 21:06Tim Ferriss?

  Now, his conclusion was that there is no compelling evidence to suggest indigenous use. And in fact, the first documented use of at least smoking the crystallized venom from the Sonoran Desert toad was documented in 1989 by this amateur chemist named Ken Nelson, I think it was.

• 21:27Andrew Weil?

  Right.

• 21:27Tim Ferriss?

  Are you aware of other use of that species or other species? I know you've looked at this.

• 21:33Andrew Weil?

  Well, I think I'm one of the first people to have smoked toad venom. I did that with Wade Davis, and we wrote the first scientific paper about Bufo alvarius. You know, we've, we have not been given much credit for that, but we really were the first people to report on it scientifically. And we speculated that it was possible that there was indigenous use of toad venom for all sorts of suggestive reasons. I don't think there is any definitive evidence of that. You know, I think this graduate student published a paper in which they identified five-methoxy DMT in the venom, making this unique among toads. And some people read that and got the idea of using toad venom.

• 22:13Andrew Weil?

  And it spread among hippies in the southwest, and that's where I learned it from a hippie friend named White Dog. I think he's mentioned in the Hamlet Mars. He was a great character. And I lived out in, I had a property in the desert that bordered on Soworo National Park. And I was surrounded by toads in the summer, you know, they're eating machines. They just eat insects all the time. And I had outdoor lights and they'd hop in the house. And these are huge animals. They're football sized. And, you know, I would pick them up. They'd pee on you as soon as you picked them up. And they're so strange looking and I milked the venom and Wade Davis and I smoked it.

• 22:53Andrew Weil?

  And amazing, because this is the first known occurrence of a psychedelic drug from an animal source. So that was really, you know, that's scientifically very interesting.

• 23:05Tim Ferriss?

  Now Wade Davis, would you mind just providing a snapshot of who Wade Davis is? And why you're firing the Beneficial Plants Research Association back up at this point in time?

• 23:18Andrew Weil?

  Wade was a graduate student of Richard Evan Schulzies. Schulzies was my mentor as an undergraduate at Harvard. And then I had a very close association with him at the Harvard Botanical Museum for many years. So I got to know Wade when he was a graduate student. You know, he's now a very well-known anthropologist, ethnobotanist, prolific writer and traveler. You know, a good friend, very bright guy. And he Like me is also very interested in the Coker Project and works with River Sticks. And my feeling is that, as I said, the Benefits Plant Research Association was way ahead of its time. But now I think there is traction out there. There's so many plants yet to be discovered

• 23:59Andrew Weil?

  that have beneficial effects, not just psychoactive ones, but things with medicinal effects, stimulants, sedatives, you know, all sorts of things that are potentially useful. And I'm a great believer in natural products and think that in many ways, many of them are superior to synthetic chemical drugs. And I like to help people know about them. And I want to see research on them and discovery of more of these. So I think it's time to try this again.

• 24:26Tim Ferriss?

  Also, for folks who may want to double click on Wade Davis, a couple of notes, I believe it was One River that he wrote, which chronicles much of Richard Evan Schulte's adventures, who is also considered in some respects, the sort of godfather of modern ethnobotany, I suppose it'd be fair to say. And his name has come up with Dr. Mark Plotkin on this podcast before. So we've, we've spent some time chatting about Richard Evan Schulte's. Also, if anyone who's watching, if you're of my vintage or older, because the movie is a little older, has seen The Serpent and the Rainbow, it's not a purely factual account, but still touches

• 25:04Tim Ferriss?

  on the investigation of zombification and zombie potions in Haiti and is one of the trippier historical investigations that you can imagine. I mean,

• 25:18Andrew Weil?

  And that was made from a book. That was Wade's first book, was The Serpent and the Rainbow.

• 25:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah. He's a very good writer, very good speaker, has quite a few TED Talks, I think.

• 25:27Andrew Weil?

  Let me, can I tell you a Schulte's story?

• 25:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, please.

• 25:30Andrew Weil?

  So in my first year at Harvard, I had to choose a major. I had no idea what I wanted to study because I was interested in too many things. I was flipping through the Harvard course catalog and I came across this course called Plants and Human Affairs. I mean, that was a strange name. So to register for this, you had to go to the Harvard Botanical Museum. It was this old Victorian brick building. And when I went in, coming out of it was the first long haired man I'd ever seen. A proto hippie, this was in 1960, who was probably up in the library, which had the greatest collection of books on psychoactive plants. So the Schultes's classroom was decorated with blow guns from South America and all

• 26:16Andrew Weil?

  sorts of artifacts from his travels. And Plants and Human Affairs was about economic botany, plants that are of economic importance other than ornamentals. And it included sections on food plants, medicinal plants, drug plants. And each week we had a laboratory in which we tried things. And for instance, there was a fruit of the week that people would, from all over the world, send him fruits which were in a freezer and we get to try these exotic things. But then there was a lab on making soap and one on making ink and one on drug plants in which we tried this really obscure stimulant plant from South America called Yoko that has the highest percentage of caffeine of any known plant.

• 26:57Andrew Weil?

  I think it's the only academic course I ever took in which I learned things of practical value. It was fabulous. And, you know, and so I really formed a close connection with Schultes and stayed associated with him for many years after.

• 27:13Tim Ferriss?

  Let's stay on Harvard for a minute. So you and your history weave into science, botany, psychedelic history in so many different ways. But before we get to that, in the course of trying to find novel questions or topics to explore in this conversation, so as not to duplicate the first. So I came across a note, I think this is actually on DrWild.com. What's funny about turning 72 was this blog post. I'll just read a paragraph and I'd love for you to expand on this. I also had a brief career at Harvard as a letter writing prankster. I would procure a letterhead, stationery from powerful people and organizations by various means and send prank letters to self-important people who I thought needed deflating.

• 27:58Tim Ferriss?

  Fun, but also dicey at times and I had to give it up. Okay. Could you please elaborate a bit on this?

• 28:05Andrew Weil?

  We probably shouldn't go into that, but I got, I got very good at this. And as a result, people would actually commission me to write prank letters and give me stationery. I had, I had White House stationery. I had, I had Mayor of New York's stationery. I did terrible things. I had this gold embossed stationery from the Mayor of New York's office. I had the President of Princeton University's stationery. And I, I gave an honorary degree to the Mayor of New York from Princeton and invited him to come speak at commencement. For example, so often I had no idea what the results of these were, you know, that I, they just sent them out there and I didn't know what would happen.

• 28:48Tim Ferriss?

  So this is in the days before Photoshop. How, did you have Frank Abagnale of Catch Me If You Can just forging this stationery? Or did you somehow procure, you got it? You got the real deal?

• 29:00Andrew Weil?

  I, I got some myself and I had agents who would procure it for me.

• 29:06Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. Now, agent, this makes me think of something I also dug up, which was your time as a, let's call it a double agent at the Harvard Lampoon and at the Harvard Crimson? Is that, am I getting that right?

• 29:20Andrew Weil?

  You are. That's, that was never done. These were rival organizations and nobody had ever been on both at the same time. So that was a little uncomfortable, but it was made for some interesting times.

• 29:32Tim Ferriss?

  All right. And for people wondering, I mean, the Harvard Lampoon is a satire magazine that has produced, I mean, Conan O'Brien, you go down the list, I mean, a long list of famous comedians and writer producers and so on, including a few people who have been on, on this show. And then the Crimson is the, the school paper. I was doing some searching just to see what has happened in the last few years in terms of news coverage, including your name. And I, one came up that is related to, let's just call it the psychedelic renaissance, as some people have called it, that we are witnessing now. And the headline is at Harvard, psychedelic drugs tentative renaissance. And I'll just read the intro and

• 30:15Tim Ferriss?

  Then I have a question. So in the early 1960s, the Harvard psilocybin project made national headlines for its unethical research methods and controversial leader psychologist Timothy F. Leary. A lot of people will recognize that name. Someone Nixon called the most dangerous man in America. Now, 60 years after Leary's departure, Harvard is again part of the conversation around the future of psychedelics. From research in the lab to conversations among the student body psychedelics are making a tentative yet undeniable renaissance on campus. A renaissance conscious of Harvard's checkered history with the substances yet working to move beyond it. I found your name in here because at the Crimson, you wrote about, as I understand it, Leary and who was then Richard Albert, later Ram Dass. Could you just describe the coverage, how that

• 30:56Tim Ferriss?

  came about, how you relate to it now, what effect that had, because that had a huge effect. I mean, it seemed to have a huge impact on mainstream culture.

• 31:04Andrew Weil?

  I was the only, I think, member of the Crimson who had a science background. You know, I was majoring in biology. So it felt I was assigned to be the writer about this controversy as it developed. I met Leary and Albert in the early days. By the way, I think the early research they did was really terrific. You know, they were the first people to really emphasize set and setting as really important determinants of drug experiences. They documented very positive effects of psychedelic experiences on prisoners in Concord Reformatory. I mean, really interesting stuff. And that was before they started a kind of cult grew up around them. The faculty got very

• 31:45Andrew Weil?

  upset. I was the one who wrote stories about that. I have mixed feelings about that, but I've come to peace with it. I, you know, made peace with Leary sometime a few years after I graduated. Then Ram Dass, you know, I knew over the years. I did fundraisers for him when he had a stroke. And a few years before he died, I had a really good meeting with him in Maui, in which he said that I had done him a blessing by forcing him out of Harvard, because otherwise he wouldn't have been Ram Dass.

• 32:16Tim Ferriss?

  Certainly true. And it's worth, folks who are familiar with Ram Dass, going back and looking at the early photos of Richard Albert.

• 32:24Andrew Weil?

  Quite different.

• 32:24Tim Ferriss?

  Very different, very different look.

• 32:27Andrew Weil?

  Tim, can I also say, you know, that you're talking about the psychedelic Renaissance, it astonishes me, the momentum and the mainstreaming of this. A few months ago, Town and Country Magazine, of all places, had a major article titled, "Why is Everyone Smoking Toad Venom?" In Town and Country Magazine?

• 32:45Tim Ferriss?

  That's wild.

• 32:46Andrew Weil?

  Yeah, really.

• 32:48Tim Ferriss?

  It seems like something out of a South Park episode from a few years ago.

• 32:55Tim Ferriss?

  Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time, what I would take if I could only take one supplement. The answer is invariably AG1 by Athletic Greens. If you're traveling, if you're just busy, if you're not sure if your meals are where they should be, it covers your bases. With approximately 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food sourced ingredients, you'll be hard pressed to find a more nutrient dense formula on the market. It has a multivitamin, multimineral greens complex, probiotics and prebiotics for gut health and immunity formula, digestive enzymes, and adaptogens. You get the idea. Right now Athletic Greens is giving my audience a special offer on top of their all in one

• 33:38Tim Ferriss?

  formula, which is a free vitamin D supplement and five free travel packs with your first subscription purchase. Many of us are deficient in vitamin D. I've found that true for myself, which is usually produced in our bodies from sun exposure. So adding a vitamin D supplement to your daily routine is a great option for additional immune support. Support your immunity, gut health, and energy by visiting athleticgreens.com/tim. You'll receive up to a year's supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your subscription. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/tim.

• 34:15Tim Ferriss?

  Let's actually talk about the newest chapters. And I guess this is kind of a two-part question. So if you're open to it, you said you've sort of had mixed feelings and come to peace with the early writing. I'd love for you to expand on that if you're willing to. And then from your perspective and observation of what's happening now, what you think people are paying too much attention to or too little attention to?

• 34:40Andrew Weil?

  Everywhere that I have gone to speak in the past few years, no matter what topic I'm talking about, whether it's nutrition, healthy aging, integrative medicine, I get questions about psychedelics. You know, people want to know where they can access them, how they can have these experiences. I mean, there is just a hunger out there and I find that amazing. And I think it's a very good thing happening in our society, maybe the, you know, one of the only good things I see happening in our society. And I think the more people who have positive psychedelic experiences, that may lead to the change in consciousness, which I think is the only thing that can turn things around for us.

• 35:19Tim Ferriss?

  Do you see people getting anything wrong or making mistakes, overemphasizing things? Anything that you'd like to draw attention to when you observe this, given your decades of observation in the space?

• 35:32Andrew Weil?

  Well, I'm sure there are still plenty of people who are using psychedelics just as party drugs and recreational drugs. And I guess that's fine, but I think they miss out on the, you know, the real potentials of these things. I think the medical profession is really slow to look at how they can make use of these drugs. We're still waiting to see them moved out of schedule one and made legally available. There's a great need for people trained in how to guide psychedelic experiences. There's an awful lot of circling around of commercial interests, looking at how they can capitalize on all this. So, you know, a lot going on. I don't know how it will all play out.

• 36:12Tim Ferriss?

  Just a sidebar. This is not intended to be a major branch in this conversation, but another little-known fact, to me at least, is something I found. This is on Psychedelic Review. "In 1977, he," that's you, "authored a scientific article on the use of hallucinogenic mushrooms in the Pacific Northwest of the United States. His study of mushrooms inspired the name of a psilocybin species," or I guess it's psilocybe, "species discovered in 1995." I don't know how to pronounce this.

• 36:37Andrew Weil?

  Wileyei.

• 36:38Tim Ferriss?

  Wileyei. There we go. Psilocybe wileyei.

• 36:43Tim Ferriss?

  How did this come about?

• 36:46Andrew Weil?

  Well, my good friend Paul Stamets, who I've known for 40-some years, named that species for me. You know, you cannot name a species for yourself in botany science, but you can name it for someone else. So, he did that to honor me. I'm very honored. There have been attempts to knock the species off, saying it's not a legitimate name, but it has most recently been confirmed as a separate species.

• 37:12Tim Ferriss?

  This may be a boring question for almost everybody listening, but I'm curious. Where does the naming convention come from? So, I think of like, is it Lefophora, Willyamsei, or Willyamse?

• 37:22Andrew Weil?

  Right, yeah.

• 37:23Tim Ferriss?

  Where you have the double "i" after the name of the person who discovered it at the end, as the second component of the species name. Do you know where that naming convention comes from?

• 37:33Andrew Weil?

  It goes back to Linnaeus, who was the really founder of modern taxonomy. And there are international rules of scientific nomenclature. The names are often put in Latinate forms. So, Williams, who described that species, it becomes Williamsie, and you know, in the botanical name.

• 37:55Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. That's just to satisfy my own curiosity on that. I also found a mention of your experience of dysthymia, which I believe is mild to moderate depression.

• 38:09Andrew Weil?

  Correct, yep.

• 38:10Tim Ferriss?

  For much of your life, emerging from it only in my early 50s. This is you. How did you emerge from it in your early 50s?

• 38:18Andrew Weil?

  You know, I wrote a book called Spontaneous Happiness, which is about emotional mental health, and it really goes into great detail about how to manage depression, anxiety with non-medication means, knowing that the medication is there if you need it. But for depression, we have tremendous evidence of the value of physical activity, both as a preventive and as a treatment. Tremendous evidence for the use of supplemental omega-3 fatty acids, fish oil or fish. There's an enormous variety of psychological methods, things like cognitive therapy, which I think are extremely useful. There's a whole range of spiritual techniques that should be looked at, whether it's meditation, mindfulness, or even gratitude. There's

• 39:03Andrew Weil?

  very interesting research showing that just the simple act of keeping a little journal of things to be grateful for and making a note of that as you go to bed can improve mood for lasting effects for a month. Another area of research that I find fascinating is that moods are contagious, and you can track them through a population, just like you can track movements of an infectious disease. If you live within a half mile of a happy person that you know, your chances of being happy are increased by, you know, a certain percentage, and the effect falls off with distance. I mean, fascinating. So you want to think about who you associate with. You know, if you're prone to depression and you hang out with people who are depressed and you watch sad movies and read sad books

• 39:48Andrew Weil?

  and listen to sad music, probably that's going to worsen your depression. I mean, simple stuff like that.

• 39:54Tim Ferriss?

  When did you go to Japan for the first time?

• 39:57Andrew Weil?

  In 1959, in the fall of 1959, when I was 17 years old.

• 40:02Tim Ferriss?

  How did you end up going to Japan when you were 17?

• 40:05Andrew Weil?

  I was a student in an experimental school called the International School of America. This was the first year of its operation. It took a group of 22 students and six faculty people around the world for eight and a half months, living with native families in various countries. And our first stop out of the US was Japan. And I can remember this distinctly, flying on a propeller plane from Hawaii. To Tokyo is an endless flight.

• 40:34Tim Ferriss?

  Must have taken a long, long time.

• 40:37Andrew Weil?

  And arriving in Tokyo on a cold rainy morning on November 1st, taken to meet our host families. They all had sons majoring in English at Keio University, but it turned out they couldn't speak any English. So I was then driven a great distance to Orawa City, which is outside of Tokyo, lived with this middle-class family with almost no verbal communication possible. But oddly, I felt at home in that home. And I loved the food. I loved everything. I really felt I had past lives in Japan. I had some deep connection with it.

• 41:15Tim Ferriss?

  How many times have you been back since?

• 41:18Andrew Weil?

  Probably 50. I mean, many times.

• 41:22Tim Ferriss?

  Now, you've been to Okinawa quite a number of times.

• 41:26Andrew Weil?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:26Tim Ferriss?

  And I've spent a little bit of time there. Okinawa is considered a blue zone. They have certain portions of Okinawa population that contains, I guess, the, let's just call it the per capita highest percentage of centenarians, something along those lines. What are some of the lessons you've taken away from that or observations that you've made?

• 41:49Andrew Weil?

  Well, it's such a different world there. You know, they live in a Pacific paradise with clean water and air. They have an unbelievably varied, fascinating diet, very different from the Japanese diet. They get physical activity. But one of the things that most struck me was the different attitude toward aging in that society, that old people are valued as national treasures. Efforts are made to include them in all aspects of social life, very different from what you see here, you know, where we like to isolate old people with other old people and not have to deal with them. One of the stories I collected over there is that a common cause of sibling fighting

• 42:32Andrew Weil?

  in traditional Okinawan society is over who is going to get to take care of the aging parents. That's a little, little different from what we see here. So. I think that's extremely important. I took my, my mother there when she was, I think 90, 89 or 90, I was invited to give a talk at a conference in Okinawa. They like to trot out their centenarians at all events. So there was a bunch of them at, at an opening party and they would all come up to my mother and say, I'm 101, how old are you? And she was very embarrassed about her, her age. And I think it was, it was interesting to watch her be in a culture where people were proud of being old. So that's one of the lessons I learned.

• 43:15Tim Ferriss?

  I spent a bit of time, I want to say four or five days in this village called Ogimi in

• 43:22Andrew Weil?

  Yes, I know, I know it well.

• 43:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So Ogimi is sort of the creme de la creme of the, of the centenarian Olympics. And every person I met who seemed to be, say in their 90s or 80s, 90s or, or beyond, I would ask, what's the secret? And I got back a different answer from just about everybody. But there were a few things that closely line up with what you're saying. One was,

• 43:48Tim Ferriss?

  old people were active. I mean, people were out in the gardens. People were members of coral societies. We had a, a driver at the time for a couple of days and he would say, well, I'm still young. I'm still a young whippersnapper, basically. And he was in his mid 80s. And we drove by a number of places where he would point out, and you'd say, that's where the old people just sit inside watching television. That's the end. He's like, that's when it's over. And it really seemed to be, as you mentioned, the inclusive nature of senior living in that area. And also the fact that they're very engaged with community and very, very active.

• 44:29Tim Ferriss?

  I remember going to market where they have the, the purple taro, which I'm sure you've seen. And as you mentioned, the diet is very, I mean, it's becoming more Japanicized, but it's very different from what we typically think of as Japanese food.

• 44:44Andrew Weil?

  But I have to tell you, Tim, that in the, over the period of time that I was going to Okinawa, Okinawan longevity has plummeted, especially among men. And that's been attributed

• 44:56Andrew Weil?

  Entirely to the increasing consumption of American fast food. And I remember there was an article in New York Times about that. And they quoted a middle aged Okinawan man who said, the first time he tasted a McDonald's hamburger, he thought he had died and gone to heaven. I mean, how could that be? I mean, these people have the most wonderful food available. But there you go. In just such a short space of time, you can see the effects of that.

• 45:19Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have an opinion on fermented turmeric tea? Because I remember that was ubiquitous. I don't know if that's a tourist shtick or if it's something actually to it.

• 45:27Andrew Weil?

  No, it's a very good thing. It was drunk cold, unsweetened, and it was very pleasant in hot, humid weather, which is common there. And I was so taken with this that I developed a relationship with the company that's making the fermented turmeric and began to import it. First, as I had a ready to drink product. This was again, probably way ahead of its time. But now through my matcha company, [email protected], we sell fermented turmeric, the powder. It makes an instant drink. I think this is a, first of all, delicious and refreshing. I like it cold and unsweetened. And turmeric, as you know, is the most powerful natural anti-inflammatory agent and many health benefits documented.

• 46:10Tim Ferriss?

  Lots of health benefits, including, as I understand it, there's some literature to suggest, I don't know if protection is warranted, but some mitigating effect on neurodegenerative disease like Alzheimer's disease.

• 46:23Andrew Weil?

  And can't prevention of cancer, protection of liver function. It's got wide ranging effects. It's good to include in the diet and fermented turmeric tea is an easy way to do that.

• 46:33Tim Ferriss?

  So why matcha? I've had matcha, I love matcha. Why decide to dedicate your energy to matcha, at least in part?

• 46:43Andrew Weil?

  Let me say, on the second day that I was in Japan back in, in November of 1959, my host mother took me next door to meet her neighbor who was a tea ceremony practitioner. So the three of us sat around and this woman did a tea ceremony and presented me with a bowl of matcha. And I was completely taken by it, first by the color. Also by the cha se and the whisk, which I just thought was marvelous and the taste of it, I fell in love with it. So when I began going to Japan more regularly in the 1970s, every time I was there, I'd bring matcha back to the States and turn people on to it. No, nobody had ever heard of it here. And I just thought this was a great thing to make available. This was before I knew anything about its health benefits.

• 47:28Andrew Weil?

  And I partnered with a matcha company in Japan and began selling it through my website. Again, like the Beneficial Plant Association way ahead of its time. This was in the 1980s. And, you know, I just always thought this would be a great thing here. So when I had the chance, when I saw matcha becoming popular here, it bothered me that so few people had access to good matcha. Because if, if matcha is not prepared correctly, and if it's not stored correctly, it oxidizes very quickly because it has such a huge surface area. And it turns, it loses that bright green color, it loses the good flavor, has a bitter taste. And many people here had never tasted really good matcha. So I was determined to make that available. And that's why I started this company. And we got, the great coup

• 48:13Andrew Weil?

  was getting the URL matcha.com. People in Japan can't believe that we got that, but there it is.

• 48:19Tim Ferriss?

  Let's discuss the health benefits. And let me also just ask a question for myself. I would imagine most people who listen to this and have had tea before, they imagine tea leaves or a tea bag put into water, you steep, and then you remove the tea leaves and you're left with this colored water, and that is what you drink. But matcha is, if I'm understanding correctly, whole leaf. So if it would, there would also be an incredible importance, or you could place incredible importance on quality or sourcing in so much as if you're consuming whole leaf tea that has been exposed to pesticides, you're going to be getting a much higher toxin load as well. Is that, am I thinking about that correctly?

• 49:01Andrew Weil?

  You are, and there is organic matcha available, but not nearly as in great supply as conventional matcha. But we've monitored matcha for pesticide levels and are assured that this is not a problem. But the way matcha is grown, how it's prepared, it's a long, labor-intensive process. And matcha is the only form of tea in which the whole leaf is consumed, as you say. I think we have the most research on the health benefits of green tea in general. And there are many forms of green tea that I like, but matcha has the highest level of antioxidants and of L-theanine, the calming amino acid that modifies the effects of caffeine.

• 49:43Andrew Weil?

  So it's unique in that regard, and I think there are health benefits of matcha that are distinctive among all forms of tea.

• 49:49Tim Ferriss?

  How does L-theanine modify the effects of caffeine?

• 49:55Andrew Weil?

  I think it takes the jittery edge off of caffeine. I think the effects of caffeine in tea and in coffee are very different. Coffee produces, I think, a jangling effect in many people. There's often a crash after a period of stimulation. Many coffee drinkers are physically addicted to it and have a withdrawal syndrome when they stop. You don't see anything like that with tea. And I think some of that is because the L-theanine has a calming effect that changes the effect of caffeine. And as I say, matcha has more L-theanine in it than any other form of tea.

• 50:28Tim Ferriss?

  And why is that? Is it that it's contained in some of the fibrous components of the leaf that are discarded when it's prepared?

• 50:36Andrew Weil?

  No, I think it has to do with the way the tea is grown, because what's unique about matcha is that about three weeks before harvest, the plants are heavily shaded with shade cloth that cuts out about 70, 80% of the sunlight. And in response to that, the leaves grow bigger and thinner and produce higher amounts of antioxidants and L-theanine. So I think that's very unique. The same shading process is used to make a very high-quality brewed green tea called Gyokuro that I'm sure you're familiar with. It's quite delicious. So that also has these high levels.

• 51:12Tim Ferriss?

  So is that, that's fascinating to me. So it almost seems like an adaptive stress response by the plant to fortify itself.

• 51:19Andrew Weil?

  Exactly, right. Well, it's trying to get, it makes more leaf surface in an effort to get more, you know, light exposure and it develops more chlorophyll, which accounts for the bright color of matcha. So I don't know how the Japanese discovered this shading process, but it is unique.

• 51:36Tim Ferriss?

  And for people who have not seen, even if you never have matcha, I certainly would suggest that you consider it. But even if you're never going to drink matcha, go find photographs of exceptionally good matcha. The color is unlike anything else you have ever seen in your life. It is like a phosphorescent, almost a phosphorescent green. And I'm biased because green is my favorite color, but it really is, it really is something, something special.

• 52:03Andrew Weil?

  Can I say that Matcha Kari, I think, has some of the finest matcha available. We're very particular about our sourcing and listeners to your podcast can get a generous discount if they use the code TIM.

• 52:19Tim Ferriss?

  That's a listener exclusive, folks. So there you go, Tim. And that's easy to remember. Matcha.com, M A T C H A dot com. And we can come back to this, but you mentioned your mom. And if my research is accurate, she lived until 94? Is that right?

• 52:36Andrew Weil?

  Ninety, 93.

• 52:37Tim Ferriss?

  93. So that is still, it may not be a world record in Ogiemi, but that's still quite a long lifespan, all things considered. Is that true on both sides of your family?

• 52:50Andrew Weil?

  No, my, my, my father died at 80, had cardiovascular disease. So my mother was much healthier. And until her last year, she was quite active and I think in pretty, pretty good shape. I traveled with her a lot. It was fun to take her to Japan and other places. One of the things I think her, part of her philosophy that may have contributed to this, she said, it's very important never to lose your sense of humor. She said, you always have to be able to see the ridiculous side of life.

• 53:20Tim Ferriss?

  Now, is that something that she cultivated in you as well? Or did she just encourage it? Was there a form of play that helped to weave that into your being? Your kind of coding, so to speak?

• 53:33Andrew Weil?

  We love to laugh together. I mean, I have a lot of pleasant memories of that. And I think the main thing that she did, and my dad did too, was to encourage my curiosity. You know, I've always been a very curious, inquisitive person. And I think they worried about me a lot in some of my experimentation and wanderings. But they always said that I should follow my passion and they encouraged me to be curious.

• 53:59Tim Ferriss?

  What did they think of? I don't know how much of a window they had into this, but your fascination with not just botany and plants, but also psychoactive.

• 54:08Andrew Weil?

  But those plants.

• 54:09Tim Ferriss?

  Those plants, yes.

• 54:10Andrew Weil?

  So just, I'll tell you one thing I remember, this must've been when I was in, after I was out of medical school, but I remember going to, to visit them in their apartment and they were living in New Jersey at that time. And my mother never said anything to me, but she'd leave newspaper clippings by my bed about marijuana causing brain damage.

• 54:33Tim Ferriss?

  And this was in our first conversation, and please tell me if I'm screwing this up, but I believe the, the very first time that you took mescaline, your mom called and said, I hope you're not doing something stupid like taking mescaline. And you're like, oh, God.

• 54:48Andrew Weil?

  She, she had mom intuition and telepathy for sure.

• 54:53Tim Ferriss?

  I could see that putting a bit of English on your experience of mescaline.

• 54:59Andrew Weil?

  I did once, they visited me in Arizona. This must've been in the 1970s and I had coca leaves that I brought back from South America and we all chewed coca leaves together. So they, they were acted as if they were very, it was a very daring thing. They got quite silly. It was fun to do.

• 55:15Tim Ferriss?

  So how did they feel? My experience of coca chewing or tea is that it's pleasantly mild, but it is far milder to me than a strong cup of coffee. Let's just say, what was their experience like?

• 55:28Andrew Weil?

  I think they probably had minimal effect. I think it was more their, their expectations than, than anything pharmacological.

• 55:36Tim Ferriss?

  How old are you now, Andy?

• 55:38Andrew Weil?

  I turned 80 on June 1st.

• 55:40Tim Ferriss?

  Happy belated birthday.

• 55:42Andrew Weil?

  Thank you. But I have to tell you, I have a very good friend, a cardiologist who says, who's same age as me, who said that his mother always told him, Joe, don't get old, you won't like it.

• 55:56Tim Ferriss?

  Well, how do you relate to getting older? I mean, you look great for 80, certainly. I mean, I hope, I hope I look as good. I already lost, I lost the hair early, so I passed that Rubicon.

• 56:06Andrew Weil?

  By the way, the, the meaning of solosomy, it's a Greek word, is bald head. So.

• 56:13Tim Ferriss?

  I did not know that. That's incredible. Okay.

• 56:15Andrew Weil?

  So solosomy, widely, I is pretty good. Anyway, cognitively, I don't feel any different. I mean, I really don't feel any different from the way I felt when I was in my twenties, but I really feel changes in my body, especially musculoskeletal changes, you know, annoyances that I didn't have before. I think my sleep has changed, but you know, I think watching the body change and its inevitable deterioration, I think that's an important thing to look at.

• 56:43Tim Ferriss?

  And do you have any plans for how you'll spend, say, the next five years? Do you have, certainly you have this matcha project, which I'm glad you're bringing to the world because I just selfishly want high quality matcha. I love, I love matcha. But in addition to that, do you think about projects you want to do kind of longitudinally over a period of time?

• 57:06Andrew Weil?

  I don't feel compelled to do anything. I don't have the drive that I did when I was younger. Like, I don't feel like I want to write anything else. I've written everything I have to say. I want to see integrative medicine really get on a solid footing and become, you know, really mainstream, which it's poised to do. I feel very deprived of travel during these pandemic years, and I want to make up for some of that. I'm going to Japan next month, and that'll be, I'm really looking forward to that. So I'd like to get some travel in while I can.

• 57:36Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, well, you know, our mutual friend Kevin Rose, also Japanophile. And it would be fun, it would be fun to actually meet up at some point in Japan. I mean, I've certainly been quite a few times. I'm still in touch, very close touch with my host mother, who I lived with when I was 15 years old. We're still, still close. And that would just be a blast.

• 57:59Andrew Weil?

  Well, I'm creating this place for you to stay in Nori Kurokogen. So I expect you both to come.

• 58:05Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah. I can give you the green light, the thumbs up on that without any problem. Well, Andy, is there anything else that you would like to mention today in this conversation or explore? People can find Machakari on Instagram, @machakari, M A T C H A K A R I. The website is matcha.com. They can find you on Twitter, @DRWile and @DrWile.com. And we'll put all these in the show notes, but.

• 58:33Andrew Weil?

  Yeah, I'd also urge people to look at the website of the Center for Integrative Medicine, now the Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine, which is hard for me to say, but it's integrativemedicine.arizona.edu. And look at the range of our activities and educational programs, some of which are available to the general public and are very good.

• 58:54Tim Ferriss?

  Well, Andy, it's, it's always nice to see you. We'll link to all these things in the show notes. Anything that you would like to see researchers in the realm of psychedelic science focus more on or consider focusing on?

• 59:11Andrew Weil?

  I am somewhat discouraged to see all the emphasis on mental, emotional health, because I think there's such tremendous potential for psychedelic experience in physical medicine, for really changing the course of chronic disease, for really affecting how people experience their bodies. You know, I've just seen so many dramatic effects of psychedelic experiences on people who've had chronic illness, and I want to see more exploration of that.

• 59:39Tim Ferriss?

  And for a tasting of some of that, people can listen to the first conversation where we talk about your experience with cat allergy.

• 59:47Andrew Weil?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:48Tim Ferriss?

  Which was also just one of those head scratchers that is worth digging into.

• 59:53Andrew Weil?

  Well, there's a lot of stuff like that out there and we want to take it seriously and look how we can make use of it.

• 59:59Tim Ferriss?

  There's a book called The Fellowship of the River, I think I'm getting that right, about a Western-trained physician who ends up engaging very heavily with ayahuasca specifically. And in that account, talks about how certain things respond, or don't respond, or I should say rather, appear to respond or don't respond more often than other conditions, let's just say, and some that seem to respond well, and this is not medical advice, I'm not encouraging people to go to the Amazon and drink ayahuasca, speak to your GP first, but are many of the autoimmune diseases, IBS, Crohn's disease, et cetera.

• 1:00:41Andrew Weil?

  That'd be top of my list of things to explore, the uses of psychedelics in.

• 1:00:45Tim Ferriss?

  So do you think that is then not necessarily a physical response to ayahuasca specifically with its harmine and everything else in the vine, or the DMT necessarily, or something that could be observed with, say, psilocybin?

• 1:01:00Andrew Weil?

  Yeah, I do. I think it's hard to disentangle all that, but I think that it's, I don't think it's specific to those chemicals.

• 1:01:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Well, it's Brave New World, there's a lot of, certainly a lot of research being done, even more companies being formed, and I suppose it will be ultimately survival of the fittest and survival of the most interesting from a scientific perspective. So I'm cautiously optimistic, but you've been in this space for many, many decades now. Is there anything left for you to experience personally within the realm of psychedelics? Or do you feel like you've scratched that itch sufficiently?

• 1:01:40Andrew Weil?

  Yeah. You know, my first book, The Natural Mind, Alan Watts wrote a blurb for it, which was great.

• 1:01:47Tim Ferriss?

  That's a good blurb.

• 1:01:48Andrew Weil?

  And the last line of it was, you know, "When you get the message, hang up the telephone."

• 1:01:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Andrew Weil?

  And I feel that way. I think I've gotten the message about psychedelics. I don't feel the need to do further experimentation.

• 1:02:00Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you get the message, hang up the phone. And let me just mention a few places where people can find you. I already did, but we'll, we'll link to the Center for Integrative Medicine, which is integrativemedicine.arizona.edu. Is that right? Yeah. And then certainly you can just search Andrew Weil or Dr. Weil and then the platform of choice and it'll pop right up and they can find you at Dr. Weil, W E I L dot com. And certainly can find the machakari at matcha.com. Is there anything else, Andy, that you'd like to add? No, that was a wide-ranging conversation, which I have enjoyed greatly. Now, thank you for taking the time, Andy. Sure. And to everybody listening, until next time, be a little kinder than is necessary to your fellow humans, fellow animals.

• 1:02:44Tim Ferriss?

  Suppose we could throw plants in there as well. Let's not get too ambitious. And as always, until next time, thanks for tuning in. Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half-page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered, or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos,

• 1:03:29Tim Ferriss?

  all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday, drop in your email, and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.

• 1:04:02Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Element, spelled L-M-N-T. What on earth is Element? It is a delicious, sugar-free electrolyte drink mix. I've stocked up on boxes and boxes of this. It was one of the first things that I bought when I saw COVID coming down the pike, and I usually use one to two per day. Element is formulated to help anyone with their electrolyte needs and perfectly suited to folks following a keto, low carb, or paleo diet. Or if you drink a ton of water and you might not have the right balance, that's often when I drink it, or if you're doing any type of endurance exercise, mountain biking, et cetera, another application. If you've ever struggled to feel good on keto, low carb, or paleo, it's most likely because even if you're consciously consuming electrolytes, you're just not getting enough.

• 1:04:45Tim Ferriss?

  And it relates to a bunch of stuff like a hormone called aldosterone, blah, blah, blah, when insulin is low, but suffice to say, this is where Element, again spelled L-M-N-T, can help. My favorite flavor by far is citrus salt, which, as a side note, you can also use to make a kick-ass, no-sugar margarita. But for special occasions, obviously. You're probably already familiar with one of the names behind it, Rob Wolf, R-O-B-B, Rob Wolf, who is a former research biochemist and two-time New York Times bestselling author of The Paleo Solution and Wired to Eat. Rob created Element by scratching his own itch. That's how it got started. His Brazilian jiu-jitsu coaches turned him on to electrolytes as a performance enhancer. Things clicked and bam, company was born.

• 1:05:29Tim Ferriss?

  So if you're on a low carb diet or fasting, electrolytes play a key role in relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. Sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, all that's garbage, unneeded. There's none of that in Element. And a lot of names you might recognize are already using Element. It was recommended to me by one of my favorite athlete friends, three Navy SEAL teams as prescribed by their Master Chief, Marine units, FBI sniper teams, at least five NFL teams who have subscriptions. They are the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, and on and on. You can try it risk-free. If you don't like it, Element will give you your money back, no questions asked. They have extremely low return rates. For a limited time, you can get a free Element sample pack with any purchase.

• 1:06:12Tim Ferriss?

  It's the perfect way to try all of their flavors. Or if you're feeling generous, share it with a friend who might enjoy. This special offer is available here at this link, drinklmnt.com/tim. That's drink Element, again, drinklmnt.com/tim.

• 1:06:30Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Levels. Very excited about this one. I wrote about the health benefits of using continuous glucose monitors, CGMs, more than 10 years ago in the 4-Hour Body. And at that time, CGMs were horribly primitive and hard to use, super painful. Levels has now made this technology and the insights that come from it easy and available to everyone. Putting in the sensors, everything about it is smooth, easy. I found it completely painless. And I started tracking my glucose way back in the day to learn more about what I should and shouldn't be eating. Keeping my blood sugar stable is critical to my daily and long-term health and performance goals. With Levels, you can see how different foods affect your health with real-time feedback.

• 1:07:15Tim Ferriss?

  Poor glucose control, which you don't want, is associated with a number of chronic conditions, not just diabetes, but also Alzheimer's and heart disease. It can impact your mood, certainly affects my mood, energy levels, right? That work in the afternoon, that dip that you feel, for instance, that's just one example, and weight management. And we all respond differently, sometimes a little bit, sometimes vastly differently, even to the same foods. So one type of carbohydrate that my body might process well, let's say that's fruit, or rice, or sweet potato, your body might not. The Levels app interprets your glucose data and provides a simple score after you eat a meal. So you can see how different foods affect you and then develop a personalized diet that's right for you and your goals. Seeing this data in real time, at least for me

• 1:07:59Tim Ferriss?

  and for so many others who use Levels, is a really powerful behavioral change mechanism. And many of the guests on the podcast have talked about this. Marco Canora, famous chef, used Levels to determine that, say, walking for him, just a few hundred steps after a meal significantly affected his glucose levels. Levels is backed by a world-class team and group of advisors, including names you've likely heard before, including repeat podcast guest Dr. Dom DiAgostino and many others. If you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a CGM yourself, learn all about it, go to levels.link/tim. That's levels.link.

• 1:08:40Tim Ferriss?

  slash tim, I'll spell it out, L E V E L S dot L I N K slash tim. Check them out today. I highly encourage you to consider getting this data on your own personal responses to the food that you eat, the food that maybe you shouldn't eat, the food that you might want to eat more of. All of these things you can learn. And that is at levels dot link slash tim. You can also find the link in this episode's description.