Sporkful Episode #1 And Sandwich Science With Robert Krulwich (Reheat)

In honor of The Sporkful’s 15th anniversary, for our Friday Reheats this month we’re pulling especially old episodes out of the darkest recesses of the deep freezer. Today, we’re defrosting our very first Sporkful episode ever, along with our episode on sandwich science with Radiolab co-host Robert Krulwich.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

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• 0:42Dan Pashman?

  The mini golf alone is probably worth, it's like the mini golf capital of the country. They have the most incredible elaborate mini golf courses. They also have more than 80 championship full-size golf courses, plus 60 miles of beautiful coastline, all-season sunshine. Of course, you can relax by the beach or the pool. There's also jet skiing, fishing charters, paddle boarding, and of course, food. Oh man, did we eat well in Myrtle Beach. From fresh local seafood to craft burgers and craft beers to kebabs on the boardwalk. With more than 2,000 restaurants to choose from, from legendary no-frill seafood shacks to chef-driven dining, Myrtle Beach has it all. Plus, live entertainment at the beach, there's always something epic going on. So, summer may be winding down, but in Myrtle Beach, you're gonna find the coastal vacation of your dreams all year long.

• 1:27Dan Pashman?

  Start planning your ultimate beach vacation and visit myrtlebeach.com.

• 1:34Dan Pashman?

  Hey, everyone, Dan here with another Sporkful reheat for you. This one needs just a little bit of setup because this coming Monday, January 13th, for our regular release, we are dropping the Sporkful 15th Anniversary Spectacular episode. I can't wait for you to hear it. We will be celebrating 15 years as a podcast. For that episode, I'll talk with my wife, Janie, and reminisce about the early days of the show. I'll tell you the whole story of the creation and the evolution of the show, and I will share clips of some of my very favorite moments in Sporkful history. In addition to that, in honor of our 15th anniversary, for our Friday reheats this month, we are pulling especially old episodes out of the mix. The darkest recesses of the deep freezer. So today, we are playing our very first Sporkful episode ever. Yes, this is episode number one from back in 2010.

• 2:19Dan Pashman?

  And then, because these episodes back then were very short, we're going to give you a second one right here in this release. That will be our 19th ever episode, also from 2010. That one's a debate about sandwich science with former Radiolab co-host, Robert Krulwich. Now, way back in the early days of the Sporkful, I had a co-host, my friend Mark Garrison, who I had worked with at NPR. He did the show with me, so you'll hear him in these episodes. And I think, as you'll hear, the show is very different in the very early days. So I hope you'll enjoy seeing how the show has changed over time. Now, as always, if there's an episode of the Sporkful that you'd like us to pull out of the deep freezer, let me know. Send us an email or a voice memo to [email protected]. Don't forget to include your first name, location, which episode you'd like us to reheat, and why. Thanks so much. Stay tuned for the 15th anniversary spectacular this Monday.

• 3:04Dan Pashman?

  And in the meantime, enjoy this trip down memory lane.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  This is the Sporkful.

• 3:25Dan Pashman?

  This is the Sporkful, where sacred cows get grilled. I'm Dan Pashman, along with my friend Mark Garrison.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Hello, Dan.

• 3:31Dan Pashman?

  We're about to challenge your assumptions about consumption and drop a sporkful of knowledge on you because we're obsessively compulsive about eating more awesomely. And because if history has taught us anything, it's that the hosts of food shows need a lot of catchphrases. Mark Garrison, how are you, sir?

• 3:45Speaker 01

  I'm doing good. I had some leftover pumpkin lasagna before I came here. It was good and delicious, which is awesome. The sad part is, it was the last of the tray that my girlfriend made, and so there will be no more of it anytime soon, so.

• 3:57Dan Pashman?

  R.I.P. pumpkin lasagna.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Goodbye. Thank you.

• 4:01Dan Pashman?

  Before we get started, we want to remind everyone out there that the conversation we're about to have continues online all week long. Check out thesporkful.com to find our blog, Twitter stream, Facebook fan page, email address, the whole nine yards. You can basically tap directly into our brains and stomachs if you dare by going to thesporkful.com.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  That's right. Now, I want to, I want to bring up something before we get into our discussion of the topic of the day, just something. I was at a concert recently, free food was on offer and, you know, again, when there's free food, you want to maximize your eating because you may eat enough to fill one meal or even two meals, maximizing the money you save. And so in this case, we had, we had hot dogs and tofu dogs. The buns were not toasted, they were not tasty, so the key here was to double or even triple stack the hot dogs if you could, so the bun becomes strictly a, you know, portability device. We, you know, minimize the mediocre bread exposure, maximize dog, high protein consumption. First round, I get the hot dogs. They are, texture's good, they had a nice snap to them, but the flavor was pretty bland. Second round, I go veggie.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Good flavor, but dry, bad texture, what you would expect out of, out of a veggie dog. So in round three, I asked for a bun stuffed with a meat and veggie dog together. And I was actually, I was afraid there would be some hostility, you know, vegetarians, they don't like meat to be mixed with their, their vegetarian, vegan in this case creations. But I actually got this kind of like look of awe and respect from the two dog servers. No one had done this all day.

• 5:27Dan Pashman?

  Well, Mark, you should not be shy about those kinds of things because this is the show where sacred cows get grilled.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 5:32Dan Pashman?

  So, I mean, if we're going to live that way, let's live that way. And, and I think what you've done here is really, makes a statement about what this podcast is all about because we're always looking for new and better ways to eat. And you found one, it sounds like.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  No, it worked because you got the, because the veggie, veggie dog had really this good earthy flavor, but the texture was all wrong. But then when you bit into the, you know, your, your teeth are slicing through the veggie part, you're getting that flavor, but then you actually hit the meat dog and you get this nice snap and the good texture and the fattiness. It was perfect. I highly recommend it.

• 6:00Dan Pashman?

  I just want the audience to know that just at that moment where you were talking about your teeth slicing through the meat, your eyes were closed as if you're, they were like rolling back in your head.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:09Dan Pashman?

  You were definitely reliving a bite just there as you were saying that.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  And the mic was in my mouth. We have to call an engineer to get this thing repaired.

• 6:16Dan Pashman?

  We'll clean that off before the next show comes in here.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:19Dan Pashman?

  Well, let's move it right along. Let's jump into it. Today's topic for rumination and mastication is grilled cheese.

• 6:29Dan Pashman?

  And I want to begin this conversation where any conversation about a sandwich should begin, which is with the bread. Now, a couple of things I want to start off saying, Mark. First of all, I mean, there's a lot of different kinds of bread you can use in a grilled cheese and still have a great grilled cheese.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 6:43Dan Pashman?

  There's more than one kind. Obviously, it has to be a slice from a loaf. You can't take, let's say, a baguette and slice it the long way, or even a ciabatta roll and slice it the long way, then you have a different kind of sandwich. Now, I would say that the normal slice thickness on a typical loaf of white bread, or rye bread, or whatever, is adequate. It can be OK. But if you want an ideal grilled cheese, you want your bread a little thicker. I would say about a half an inch thick per slice.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  I think that's fine if you want to go a little bit thicker, but the problem is, part of the joy in the grilled cheese is kind of the sponge factor of the bread, and if it gets too thick, you're going to lose the ability to have kind of that butter coursing through the whole thing. I think if it gets too thick, you're getting away from the essence of the grilled cheese, which is a cheese and grease delivery device.

• 7:36Dan Pashman?

  I think that's right. There is such thing as too thick, but I think if you're at about a half an inch of thickness, I actually got out a ruler before we started taping this and looked at how big is a half an inch, if that looks right to me. And I said, "Half an inch, that looks right." Because here's what I want to say, is that when a grilled cheese gets really, really amazing to me, is when you have a nice, fresh, pretty dense bread, you've buttered the outside, so the outside gets very crispy, the inside, obviously, is cheesy, melty, gooey goodness.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:05Dan Pashman?

  But if you can have a very, ever-so slight and thin, but perceptible, layer in the bread, that is fluffy bread, that separates the buttery, crispy butteriness and the cheesy goodness, that little tiny, tiny bit of bread fluff is magic.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  OK, all right. I haven't given a lot of thought to that, the non-outside, the non-middle, but that one strata. And this is actually expanding my mind, because that's an important place to go.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Now, let's talk cheese. Like, what's going between the slices in your world?

• 8:45Dan Pashman?

  Well, again, personal taste is a big factor here, but I think, first of all, you need a cheese that's high in fat, so that it's gonna melt and get melty and gooey. I go with a high-quality American cheese, like, not Kraft Singles. I like, like, a Lando Lakes American Slice to the Deli Counter. That stuff is money and it goes with everything. What about you?

• 9:02Speaker 01

  I mean, the American cheese can be good, the cheddar cheese can be good. I do, I actually, I like some of the Swiss cheese and erglier, or something like that, but I like to have something that's gonna bring, I like to mix, first of all, but I wanna have one of the, you know, traditional melting cheeses.

• 9:17Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  And then add something else to bring a little bit of funkiness, so that might be something blue. Not a lot of it, because blue cheese is not like a really good melting cheese.

• 9:25Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  But if I can put something in there that will make it smell funky and more flavorful. This, by the way, actually reminds me of just how veganism is this total bankrupt ideology, because there is no meltable cheese. No one has ever had, because there's some really great vegan junk food and all that, but the vegan science has not created anything that substitutes for a meltable cheese, because it's soy cheese, like, mac and cheese, like that.

• 9:50Dan Pashman?

  It's not cheese.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  It's terrible. Yeah, it's terrible.

• 9:52Dan Pashman?

  It's the worst, and I mean, any life philosophy that involves not eating real grilled cheese sandwiches?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Problematic. Okay, so, we've talked about what can go into the grilled cheese, but let's talk about how we're gonna actually do it. And for me, for me, I know there's all, you know, there are all these different other technologies you can use like that, but for me, I really just wanna have a pan and some butter, and just make it in the pan, and flip it, and grill it, and then serve it.

• 10:14Dan Pashman?

  I think that's absolutely right, and you know, Mark, I am a lover of words, like yourself.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:19Dan Pashman?

  And the food we're discussing here is grilled cheese.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:24Dan Pashman?

  If you don't grill it, it's not a grilled cheese.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 10:28Dan Pashman?

  We're talking grill, not like a barbecue grill.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:30Dan Pashman?

  In a pan or in a diner-style grill.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Skil it, yeah.

• 10:33Dan Pashman?

  If you put it in a toaster, bread and cheese melted in a toaster, that's not a bad food.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 10:38Dan Pashman?

  But that is a toasted cheese sandwich.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:41Dan Pashman?

  That is not a grilled cheese. Don't press the sandwich, because you want those layers, as I discussed earlier. You press the sandwich, it's gonna get flattened hard. You want a little bit of fluff. Now, what are your thoughts, Mark, on spreadable butter, margarine versus regular butter? I mean, is there any leeway there for you?

• 11:00Speaker 01

  It's butter. It's butter. I mean, because again, like, butter is meant to be delicious and not healthy. So like, the idea of introducing margarine or something else like that. I want just like a stick of butter that ideally, I've had a little bit of time that I could have left it out and let it get to room temperature from the fridge, where it's nice and soft and spreadable. And it's just butter from a stick and unsalted ideally, because I want to control the salt that I'm putting in there like that, on each side of the bread, put onto the skillet and grill the cheese.

• 11:35Dan Pashman?

  So what about fillings? At what point does it stop becoming a grilled cheese and start becoming a panini? Where's the dividing line? I'm gonna go ahead and say that you can put bacon inside your grilled cheese, and it's still a grilled cheese. Because bacon, to me, is an accoutrement. You can add it in, yes, that was a real French accent.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  I want that in English, actually.

• 11:56Dan Pashman?

  It's an accoutrement. That's English. So you put the bacon in there. Bacon can be added to a million things, and should be. And it can be added to grilled cheese to add flavor. But any other meat, any other meat that can be an entree meat on its own, which to me bacon is not, makes it a panini sandwich. You can add in tomatoes as well. One vegetable is okay. As soon as you add in a second vegetable, it's a panini sandwich at that point, and you've lost the grilled cheese.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm following all of your complicated logic. You have gone beyond what is a real grilled cheese. Because the grilled cheese, the essence and the beauty of it is its simplicity. We're taking bread, butter, cheese, and grilling it. But adding these other ingredients, it's no longer grilled cheese, once you've done this. You've gone away. You've gone to a panini or a... Or melt, or a press sandwich, or whatever, but it's still gonna be good. It's gonna taste good, but you've left the category behind.

• 12:51Dan Pashman?

  I don't think that's fair.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  That can't even be mentioned on this program. This is a grilled cheese program. And you have broken away.

• 12:59Dan Pashman?

  No, no, Mark, you can add things to a food and it's still the essential food. The question is, when does it become a different food?

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Grilled cheese, the name itself, it points you in the direction of what you should do. It's saying, cheese is the star. And how you, because again, within cheese, there's lots of different types of cheeses. There are different types of breads. You have, you have a lot of options here. And I think like, think of it as kind of like creative restraint. If you add all this stuff to the grilled cheese, it's not cheese, bread, and butter.

• 13:26Dan Pashman?

  Well, I'm not talking about adding all this stuff. I'm talking, I agree that if you add quote unquote, "all this stuff," you're crossing the line. But I think a slight addition, for instance, I would say if you put eggs in there, you've crossed the line.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  But how is eggs more crossing the line?

• 13:39Dan Pashman?

  Because eggs is an entree on its own. Turkey is an entree on its own. You put turkey in there, you've crossed the line. But bacon is an accompaniment.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  I don't agree, because I think bacon can be categorized as a meal and eaten as such. And some of these other things you're talking about.

• 13:52Dan Pashman?

  You would like, sit down for lunch and just have a plate of bacon and nothing else? Well, alright.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  I've done that, actually. You haven't done that? What are you talking about?

• 14:00Dan Pashman?

  I'm sorry, that was halfway out of my mouth. And I was like, this is a bad point. I'm losing this argument, aren't I?

• 14:04Speaker 01

  You're already there. Okay, so on that, again, so I will give you that deliciousness can happen by doing the things you've done. But I think you have walked up to the challenge of making grilled cheese great and better, and just kind of given up and saying, "I'm gonna add some bacon or veggies."

• 14:20Dan Pashman?

  You think it's cheating?

• 14:21Speaker 01

  I think you've gone beyond the true essence of grilled cheese. And I think you've, you're letting yourself down. You're not living up, not only you're not living up to grilled cheese, you're not living up to Dan. Like, you know, your abilities to, and your passion about making something better. I think it's an easier road.

• 14:40Dan Pashman?

  Well, I appreciate you holding me to such a high standard. One more question on that point. I'll let you address this, Mark. We got a comment on the Facebook fan page, which by the way, you can find by going to thesporkful.com. One of our fans, Mike, saw what we were gonna be discussing, and he asked, "What if the meat is embedded in the cheese?" He has a block of cheddar cheese with pepperoni in the cheese. If he makes a grilled cheese using that cheese, is it still a grilled cheese?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  I'll allow it, especially, especially.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Again, this is cheese, because cheese is not like a one ingredient thing. It's got rennet and milk and this and that. So I'll allow that. You know, this may be Mike on the, uh, on the, how did Mike connect with this?

• 15:23Dan Pashman?

  We are so plugged in, you've already lost track in the first podcast. He's on the Facebook fan page.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Okay, all right. I knew Mike came in from somewhere like that. But, but I think like Mike, what Mike said may have been kind of the bridge of peace between us in that I can, I can accept what you're making and possibly, you know, think of it as a category of cheese like that. So, or actually, Mike may have just revealed that I have holes in my logic and I haven't really thought through this position. But, but in any case, thank you, thank you, Mike, and, and yes, grill away.

• 15:54Dan Pashman?

  One more topic I want to cover here is dipping a grilled cheese into soup. Now, I'll go on record right now, I'm a little biased, because the most traditional one is tomato soup.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Tomato soup, yeah.

• 16:02Dan Pashman?

  I'm not a fan of tomato soup in general, so much. I don't like tomato soup or tomato juice. So, to me, that's not so exciting, but I mean, you're dipping one thing into another, so it doesn't corrupt the grilled cheese. If it makes you happy, it's fine with me. But I think that a lot, a lot more experimentation should be done with this, with different kinds of cheese and different kinds of soup, beyond the, the standard tomato soup. For instance, I would love to see a grilled cheese with, with, with your gruyere, with a nice crusty bread. You have a sharp cheese and then you dip it into something that's sort of a creamy soup, like a gruyere grilled cheese.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  I was actually gonna ask, like, yeah, like a cream mushroom or something like that.

• 16:37Dan Pashman?

  Yes, cream mushroom, see.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  I think that would be good. Now, the other thing you can do, if you really want to go down the road of dipping, I would say, like, take a grilled cheese sandwich and dip it into fondue. And then your head would just totally explode. I think that would be great.

• 16:48Dan Pashman?

  At that point, that's like crossing the streams. The universe folds in upon itself and you explode and stop eating.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Enjoy.

• 16:55Dan Pashman?

  All right, that just about does it for today's podcast. You've heard what we think. Now, we want to hear from you. Head over to thesporkful.com, that's thesporkful.com. There are various ways to connect with the show, so many that Mark just lost track. Share your opinions, your ideas, and your deepest, darkest food-related obsessions.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  We've also got a blog and discussion forum called The Sporkful Test. Kitchen where we can all gather to discuss and debate these issues, share new concepts in the field of food.

• 17:20Dan Pashman?

  That's right, and remember, this is all in pursuit of a noble cause, people. Someday, when our ranks are large enough, we're going to band together to found Sporkful University. Motto: Ruminati, Masticate, Promelgate. So go to thesporkful.com to get involved with that vital mission.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Until next time, I'm Mark Garrison.

• 17:36Dan Pashman?

  And I'm Dan Pashman, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Time to cook up some advertisements.

• 17:55Dan Pashman?

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• 18:37Dan Pashman?

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• 19:24Dan Pashman?

  I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners. For a long time, I did not understand the point of vests. Like, why not just have a jacket? That covers your arms, too. But something clicked for me. I think I got gifted a vest and now I am obsessed with vests. And it just adds that little bit of toastiness.

• 20:07Dan Pashman?

  And I got this new Quince packable puffer vest. I love that you can just squish it up and shove it in the bottom of your bag. That way you have it with you all day. If it gets a little chilly, break out the vest. I also got a Quince down quilted vest. It is so soft and cozy. They make them for men and women. And as with everything you get at Quince, they focus on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. These are all timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too.

• 20:51Dan Pashman?

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was The Sporkful. It's the best way to support the show.

• 21:00Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to another Sporkful reheat. I'm Dan Pashman and I have a very big, exciting announcement for you. This past November, I took a group of Sporkful fans and some others on a special trip across Italy to eat pasta, to retrace many of the steps I took on my own research trip for my cookbook, and we had so much fun and ate so, so well. We ate spaghetti alla sasina in Bari. We took a cooking class with Silvestro Silvestori in Leche. We ate with Katie Parla in Rome. And the folks at Culinary Backstreets who organized the tour, they added some stops that I didn't even know about, that were new to me, that were incredibly delicious and all. So fascinating. Fresh focaccia on the Adriatic or a quette rolled by hand. The list goes on. Point is, it was so great. We're doing it again.

• 21:43Dan Pashman?

  This November, we just opened up spots. It's a small group, so space is limited. Bottom line, come eat pasta with me in Italy. For all the details, go to culinarybackstreets.com/sporckful. Now, we're going to be reheating our 19th ever episode of The Sporkful from way back in 2010. This is a conversation about sandwich science with Robert Krulwich. At the time, Robert was the co-host of the podcast Radio Lab. He's since retired from that role and has been a collaborator on a variety of documentaries. But back in 2010, he had a lot to say about the science as well as the art of making and eating sandwiches. Enjoy.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  This is The Sporkful.

• 22:35Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman, along with Mark Garrison.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Hello, Dan.

• 22:41Dan Pashman?

  We're about to challenge your assumptions about consumption and drop a sporkful of knowledge on you because we're obsessively compulsive about eating more awesomely. And because if history has taught us anything, it's that the hosts of food shows need a lot of catchphrases. Mark Garrison, how are you, sir?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  I am doing good. I am energized because I just had a meal that today I knew that we would revisit some of our NPR times, our Bryant Park years, or I guess months would be more accurate. And so I went and had a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich. And there was a very Proustian sensation when I did that, recalling those times. So we'll reveal why I was feeling nostalgic in a moment.

• 23:16Dan Pashman?

  That sounds delicious. Now, a quick reminder, this podcast will end, but it continues online. To find our blog, Facebook and Twitter pages, email address, and more, go to thesporkful.com. That's thesporkful.com. Now, we have a very special guest joining us today, an old friend and a voice well-known to many. He is NPR's esteemed science correspondent and the co-host of Radio Lab. He is, of course, Robert Krulwich. Welcome to The Sporkful, Robert.

• 23:40Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 23:41Dan Pashman?

  Now, for those people who don't know, Mark and I worked together at NPR on a show called The Bryant Park Project, the dearly departed Bryant Park Project. We got to know Robert back then, working together. Had a few great meals with him. And also did some work with him, some great NPR pieces which we will post links to on our blog, which you can find by going to thesporkful.com.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Having me on your show is a little, kind of slumming, because you know how I eat. So I just want to make it clear.

• 24:05Dan Pashman?

  I do.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  The audience doesn't know how I eat.

• 24:06Dan Pashman?

  They generally have such a high opinion of you. If only we could bring a video camera to Lunch with Robert Krulwich one of these days. I think that...

• 24:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, the nut of it is, I eat very, very fast and don't notice. So my being on this program is a little odd.

• 24:20Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's get into today's topic for rumination and mastication, which is, of course, sandwich science. First, we're going to start with physics, very simple formula you learn early on in the class. Force equals mass times acceleration. In other words, in our case, how do you build a sandwich that will react well to the force of the bite without having the mass of the sandwich accelerate out the back or the sides? So, Robert, how would you avoid this problem?

• 24:50Speaker 03

  I think the danger area in any mixed sandwich is the slippery stuff in between. So you have to watch out for your cucumbers and you watch out for your tomatoes. These are sliding objects. Now, the breads can be an adhesive and the things you stick between can help you, but the presence of a dangerous cucumber is something to be very, very worried about, particularly with the tie, the shirt, and anything like the lap.

• 25:17Dan Pashman?

  That's right, Robert, and this is something I've identified as the sliced cucumber conundrum. And what you want to do...

• 25:25Speaker 03

  You're very into chapter headings.

• 25:27Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I've seen him do this, and it's capitalized. This is a proper name.

• 25:31Speaker 03

  Of course, even sounds capitalized.

• 25:33Dan Pashman?

  It is, yes. But to bring in another scientific principle, you want to create friction. You need friction.

• 25:39Speaker 03

  Yes, you do.

• 25:40Dan Pashman?

  You do not ever want tomatoes and cucumbers to be pressed up against each other. Now, in the traditional sandwich construction, oftentimes, they'll go meat, then cheese, then veggies, then greens. That's normally the way they do it when they're not thinking about it. But what you should do, one way to avoid the sliced cucumber conundrum, is to place the greens between the tomato and cucumber. Greens are often absorbent.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:04Dan Pashman?

  And if you have the-

• 26:05Speaker 03

  Or you could slice the greens into a shreddy like, you know those kinds of, you know, where they take the lettuce, see the dangerous lettuce, would be the large lettuce leaf with the thick vein on top. That vein is like a, like a track, you know, if you lie, lean on that vein, you could slide right on it. It even looks like it's inviting motion. But if you take the leaf and you grind it up into one of those, you know how, I don't know, what is that?

• 26:28Dan Pashman?

  Shredded lettuce, yeah. I think when they kind of like slice it on the meat slicer.

• 26:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, see, now that's a friction. There is your stop sign of a sandwich, right there.

• 26:34Dan Pashman?

  I don't know, I gotta disagree with you there, Robert, because I find shredded lettuce has too high of a surface area to volume ratio, and it will absorb a lot of liquid, and it turns into mush, which creates a different problem. I think if you have, what I like to use is, let's say-

• 26:48Speaker 03

  What kind of liquid would it be absorbing?

• 26:50Dan Pashman?

  Well, liquid from the tomatoes and the cucumbers.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 26:53Dan Pashman?

  That you're trying to use, create friction, I, I prefer-

• 26:55Speaker 03

  I hadn't really thought about the inner drinking-ness of the tomato. So the lettuce is drinking the tomato and then slushing up?

• 27:01Dan Pashman?

  Exactly, and it will turn almost mealy if you have shredded lettuce. I really object to shredded lettuce in a sandwich. I go for more something like baby spinach, which is dry, it doesn't have the spines, which you were worried about, which is a valid concern, Robert.

• 27:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:13Dan Pashman?

  And you put a little baby spinach or mescaline mix in there, and that will absorb-

• 27:17Speaker 03

  Mescaline, now there, that's, that's a slower downer, right there, mescaline.

• 27:22Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 27:22Speaker 03

  Yes, that would be a hot-

• 27:23Dan Pashman?

  Cause the little frisee in there has a, frisee is very dry.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  Frisee, if you're worried at all about slippage, then I would just stick frisee in anywhere. I would stick frisee on my lap. Frisee is like a, that's a slower downer, basically.

• 27:36Dan Pashman?

  We should make you a frisee smock, Robert, for when you eat.

• 27:39Speaker 03

  No, or just like stuff your mouth with frisee and you, you would look like some kind of ornament. And that would be, but it was, it was an ornament that would suggest a kind of frozen in timeness. Cause that's what you're really up against here. You don't want accidents to happen. Slippage, all these things are things that does, that get the better of you. And there are friendly vegetables that can hold things back, check the action. Frisee, easily the best one.

• 28:08Dan Pashman?

  Part two of our conversation here is going to be focused around gravity. How do you deal with wet sandwich ingredients like certain veggies, juicy meats, condiments, and oils, so that as gravity pulls the liquids earthward, the sandwich doesn't get soggy?

• 28:22Speaker 03

  In which we will learn that there is an extraordinary sense in this room that gravity matters a lot.

• 28:28Dan Pashman?

  It does.

• 28:29Speaker 03

  Which I didn't know.

• 28:30Dan Pashman?

  Mark, what do you do to get around this issue of gravity making your sandwich soggy?

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, I don't think of it as earthward. I think of it more as kind of tongue word. But I...

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Because again, I...

• 28:43Speaker 03

  Which is why you often lie prone during your meals.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  If you've thought of your ingredients falling to the earth, I feel like you've already lost. It's like you've already given up and you've decided you're going to sacrifice that tomato.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  You know, at the end of the day, they all fall to the earth at the end of the day. You wait a few hours and everything goes earthward at the end.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  This is true. This is true. But what about the use of cheese as a barrier? I find that to be one of the greatest barriers between any kind of moist or liquidy ingredient and bread, and keeping your bread from becoming soft.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  I don't know. I... Cheese always feels to me uninvited between bread. I don't know where I got this. I mean, I know this is very, very un-American.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Do you eat grilled cheese?

• 29:21Speaker 03

  I do. I do. I... But I just look at the cheese and I think to myself in the very, very back of my mind, maybe this is the first time I've ever admitted this, "What are you doing here, cheese?" I think to myself.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  In any sandwich? Or just in a certain position in the structure of the sandwich?

• 29:36Speaker 03

  You know, I think maybe because I grew up in a kosher household.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, there it is.

• 29:38Speaker 03

  So therefore, if you had cheese with meat, that would be very, very bad.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  No good.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  And there was one moment in my life, and this was, you know, God clearly was looking down at me at the moment. I decided I would have a cheeseburger. I was on K Street in Washington DC. There are I don't know how many million people in Washington DC.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  How old were you? How old were you at this time?

• 29:59Speaker 03

  I was 23.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  And you had never had a cheeseburger?

• 30:01Speaker 03

  Never had a cheeseburger.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Okay, go on.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  I... The cheeseburger is served, and I'm getting sweaty. It's like I'm about to go to a porn film or something. And, you know, the worst possible situation is you sit down for the porn film and, you know, your Aunt Brenda suddenly opens the door. In this case, as I'm about to eat the cheeseburger, it's sitting there, and there's nothing, I can't deny that it's in front of me. My cousin Louis, my cousin Max, my cousin...

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Shekky.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  Five croaches suddenly walk up the block.

• 30:32Dan Pashman?

  Oh, no.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  And all I could do was drop the, I just dropped the cheeseburger.

• 30:36Dan Pashman?

  On the ground?

• 30:36Speaker 03

  On the ground.

• 30:37Dan Pashman?

  You were never discovered?

• 30:39Speaker 03

  It's like one of those accidents, you know, I dropped the cheeseburger and then a few weeks later, I remember what I did next. I smiled and stared vacantly at them and stood up and hoped that none of them would notice that there was a hamburger at my feet.

• 30:52Dan Pashman?

  But do you believe they noticed and didn't tell you?

• 30:54Speaker 03

  No one has ever mentioned it since.

• 30:56Dan Pashman?

  But do you believe they noticed and didn't tell you, as so as not to shame you?

• 30:59Speaker 03

  I fear that they noticed it and didn't tell me, so as not to shame me, but I don't even know. But therefore, cheese is dangerous to me.

• 31:07Dan Pashman?

  And do you eat cheeseburgers now and enjoy them?

• 31:09Speaker 03

  No.

• 31:10Dan Pashman?

  Really? Wow.

• 31:11Speaker 03

  I don't eat cheeseburgers.

• 31:12Dan Pashman?

  Well, I-

• 31:13Speaker 03

  But now I don't eat cheeseburgers because of the pain, the side of the pain, the aforementioned psychic pain.

• 31:21Dan Pashman?

  I want to talk about wraps a little bit. Robert, you have a problem with wraps, and you brought this to us. This is part of the reason why I wanted to have you on for this conversation, because you have an issue, you're seeking guidance, and that's why a lot of people come to the sporkful. You have an issue with wraps, which are a type of sandwich, which we'll include in this episode.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:37Dan Pashman?

  Tell us about the problem you're having.

• 31:38Speaker 03

  Well, it's very simple. I have accidental egress. So, you order the, say, the wrap, and they put all this stuff and they wrap it kind of nicely, sort of like Bloomingdale's. But inevitably, somehow, when you start to eat it from the top, and then you're now holding it on a vertical, things start coming out of the bottom. The bottom, which had been perfectly wrapped.

• 32:00Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 32:01Speaker 03

  So, they can come into the tin foil, and you hear plunk, plunk, plunk, plunk, chicken piece, chicken piece, chicken piece, tomato, plop. When you hit plop, then you've already got a little pool there. The question is, could you go to someone, a purveyor of a wrap, and get a sandwich which will hold through the eat?

• 32:19Dan Pashman?

  I think that the tuck will help, but the tuck is not going to be foolproof. When you fold over one end of the wrap.

• 32:26Speaker 03

  I don't know why that would be, because you're not in any way addressing the bottom. All you're doing is putting a little bit of pressure.

• 32:33Dan Pashman?

  But you have gravity.

• 32:33Speaker 03

  That's gravity. That's all we're talking about.

• 32:35Dan Pashman?

  But knowing how you eat, I'm going to guess that you get a wrap that's got a fair amount of sauce involved in it.

• 32:40Speaker 03

  A fair amount of sauce.

• 32:41Dan Pashman?

  Well, that's already, that's dangerous. If you're going to get a fair amount of sauce in there, you're already playing with fire. A wrap is not really the ideal way to eat something with a lot of sauce. Have you tried the foil cap at one of them?

• 32:51Speaker 03

  Yes, of course. The foil cap is catching the refuse.

• 32:54Dan Pashman?

  Describe your grip.

• 32:55Speaker 03

  I'm side grip.

• 32:56Dan Pashman?

  On this cylinder. In the middle? Are you gripping in the middle?

• 32:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:59Dan Pashman?

  Well, that could be a big problem.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  You think I'm doing a squeeze?

• 33:02Dan Pashman?

  Right. You should try gently cupping from the bottom.

• 33:06Speaker 03

  No, I don't want to gently cup from the bottom.

• 33:08Dan Pashman?

  Why? You're applying pressure in the middle by squeezing. It's like the toothpaste tube.

• 33:12Speaker 03

  It's ugly, that's why. Imagine watching a person.

• 33:14Dan Pashman?

  Now you're worried about aesthetics?

• 33:16Speaker 03

  Well, imagine you're watching a person eating a sandwich. They have the sandwich in their hand, cupped from the bottom. I don't think so. This looks like somebody, you know, who doesn't know how to throw a ball.

• 33:28Dan Pashman?

  It could be, but the other way to look at that is it kind of has the elegance of a sommelier. You'll have the bottle would present it to you.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  It could be done.

• 33:35Dan Pashman?

  I mean, it certainly looks a lot more presentable than being covered in sauce, which is how I usually end up. But I think.

• 33:41Speaker 03

  Well, how do you grip these things?

• 33:42Dan Pashman?

  Well, first of all, I don't order wraps with a lot of sauce in them.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  You don't? What's the point, then?

• 33:47Dan Pashman?

  If I'm going to get a wrap, I will have a light condiment on it, mustard or mayo, with cheese and meat and greens.

• 33:52Speaker 03

  No, I'm talking about the white stuff that comes out of a, he goes, "You want red? You want white? You want red? You want white?" I want the white.

• 33:58Dan Pashman?

  The street carts where they have the white sauce, right.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  I only buy it street. I don't go to places with tables and chairs anymore.

• 34:04Dan Pashman?

  I don't get those in wrap form. I'd rather just get it and eat it with a spoon or with a fork. I get it.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Over rice, yeah.

• 34:10Dan Pashman?

  The dinner form, over rice.

• 34:11Speaker 03

  That costs $2 more. It's out of my league.

• 34:13Dan Pashman?

  But you're getting more food, though, and that often can become both a lunch and a dinner.

• 34:18Speaker 03

  You're getting more food?

• 34:19Dan Pashman?

  You are.

• 34:19Speaker 03

  Are those have more, larger volumes?

• 34:21Dan Pashman?

  That's why it costs more, I believe.

• 34:24Speaker 03

  I just thought it was a ripoff that I was somehow avoiding.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  A big lie.

• 34:28Speaker 03

  So you, neither of you put the white sauce on?

• 34:31Speaker 01

  I, I have not done it when it's in wrap form.

• 34:34Speaker 03

  Because you know that if you add sauce, you're gonna lose the integrity of the sandwich?

• 34:37Speaker 01

  It's gonna be problematic, yeah.

• 34:39Speaker 03

  Oh my god, it never even occurred to me.

• 34:41Dan Pashman?

  Well, Robert, we say that this show is about questioning assumptions about consumption. That's what we're talking about here.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, I am very shocked.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  You can, though, I mean, because again, like, choosing the, the conveyance, whether it to be over rice or in a wrap form, I mean, you do have to consider the venue. If you're going to be mobile, you're gonna choose a wrap form. You may have to make some sacrifice in the, in the condiments and sauces.

• 34:59Dan Pashman?

  I think the problem may be with, not with the wrap, but with you, Robert. I'm sorry to say, that's my diagnosis here.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  All right, we have covered physics. We need to move into the realm of geometry. A squared plus B squared equals C squared. A sandwich in a typical loaf of bread is a somewhat square shape. It's never perfect, a kind of a mushroomy top like that. But if you were to slice that diagonally, you will end up with two right triangles.

• 35:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  And, and that's the most common way to slice it. Some people will try and have the symmetry and go down the middle, but it doesn't look that good. I mean, the right triangle is an appealing shape.

• 35:32Speaker 03

  And really, that's what they are, is square. There's something just really dull about going for a square.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so here, Robert, when you're presented with two right triangles, you, you can, you can, I guess, bite the right angle. I don't know if that's even ever been, ever been done.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  No, it's never been done.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  And then you have the choice of biting at the hypotenuse or choosing one of the two acute angles. Where, where do you begin?

• 35:54Speaker 03

  For those who are little, um, who have trouble with geometry, what he means by the hypotenuse is he means the obvious place to eat a stupid sandwich. The big, wide part where you can see everything.

• 36:05Dan Pashman?

  The middle, the part sliced in the middle.

• 36:06Speaker 03

  The middle, yeah, that's what it is. And so, of course, you eat there because A, you can look at it. B, you can choose your point of entry. C, it's... It's, that's how you do it. That's how you do it.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  So you can be anywhere.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  No, I've never seen anybody eat the pointy one.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  When you're saying choosing your point of entry, so you are fine with any, any point along the long edge?

• 36:28Speaker 03

  Like, it's like a piano. You can hit any note on the keyboard. It's stretched there before you.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  I don't quite understand why you would choose a bite that would put your cheeks in jeopardy of, of being smeared with something. And also too, you, you-

• 36:41Speaker 03

  It's like a kiss. If you want to kiss somebody, would you pucker, pucker, pucker and stretch your lips as far, so you got as close to a duck as you could? And then take a little peck? No. You would bury yourself in the lips of the other. A sandwich is a form of comfort and a dressing with ardor the meal.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Okay, so I was waiting for the romantic part of it.

• 37:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, you, you, you hit, you hit the sandwich big time.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Why not choose the acute angle and then it's, it's almost like an arrow. It's an arrow like pointing into your mouth and it goes in there perfectly.

• 37:15Speaker 03

  That's the sandwich's way of spiking, that's the sandwich saying, "No, not here." That's what that is. That is the sandwich's spike. You don't, you don't approach, uh, what are those animals with all those spikes?

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Porcupines.

• 37:27Speaker 03

  You don't approach a porcupine spike where you, you, you only address it from the head where it's not spiky.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  So you only kiss a porcupine on the lips?

• 37:33Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  That's good advice in general, I think in life, but words to live by.

• 37:36Speaker 03

  Have you ever eaten a sandwich from the bottom, from the, from the pointy side?

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Uh, yes, I have, absolutely. That is my preferred way. I mean, I, I'm not-

• 37:44Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  In general, in general-

• 37:46Speaker 03

  You always eat them that way?

• 37:47Speaker 01

  I do like starting with that point.

• 37:50Speaker 03

  I've never seen this.

• 37:51Dan Pashman?

  Here's my other question, Robert, is that you say that the only way, if you have a square sandwich on white or wheat sliced bread, the only way to do it is to cut it diagonally.

• 37:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 37:59Dan Pashman?

  The difference between cutting it diagonally and cutting it across the middle.

• 38:01Speaker 03

  No one cuts it across.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Well, it's been done, it's been done.

• 38:04Dan Pashman?

  The difference between, if you're gonna bite into the center,

• 38:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:07Dan Pashman?

  Then there's no difference in cutting it diagonally or cutting it across the middle. The only reason to cut it diagonally is to create the points.

• 38:15Speaker 03

  The sandwich doesn't want to be eaten. And you are expecting the sandwich to cut on the diagonal so the sandwich can announce, with your help, where it does not want to be eaten. To then go ahead and eat the sandwich from that end is to rape the sandwich. And that, you should probably be arrested by some sandwich policeman.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  I'm really glad we're completing the circle because we've done hard sciences, we've done the mathematics, and now we're kind of into the social science of sandwich psychology. So we've covered most of the bases here.

• 38:41Speaker 03

  Our sandwich criminality, actually, here. I think you have something to really worry about.

• 38:46Dan Pashman?

  Well, that just about does it for today's podcast, but the conversation continues online. We have a bonus section of our conversation with Robert which should not fit into the cut. We're going to post it to the web. We've got a blog called The Sporkful Test Kitchen. We put photos, videos, and show outtakes there. You can find it all by going to thesporkful.com.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Of course, we also have the social media angle covered. Connect with us to share feedback and show ideas for the future. You can find us on Facebook and Twitter by going to thesporkful.com. Until next time, I'm Mark Garrison.

• 39:14Dan Pashman?

  And I'm Dan Pashman, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 39:28Dan Pashman?

  The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me, along with managing producer

• 39:32Speaker 04

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 39:33Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer

• 39:34Speaker 05

  Andres O'Hara.

• 39:35Dan Pashman?

  Our engineer is

• 39:36Speaker 06

  Jared O'Connell.

• 39:37Dan Pashman?

  The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producers are Nora Ritchie and Colin Anderson. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 40:16Speaker 02

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• 40:46Speaker 07

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