How To Date: How to cope with heartbreak and rejection

Elizabeth and Mel face one of the most challenging parts of dating: heartbreak and rejection. We are joined by life coach and author Michelle Elman who went through a devastating, public break-up after being notified via an Instagram DM that her fiance of 24-hours had been cheating on her. Michelle, Mel and Elizabeth explore the impact an experience like this can have and how best to cope with it. We discuss surviving rejection and the lessons that heartbreak can teach us, in time. Plus: how to feel hopeful again and embrace the ‘what next?’ stage of self-discovery. After you’ve listened, you can get all the resources and worksheets discussed at www.thepodclass.co.uk Mel and Elizabeth are on a mission to revolutionise the world of dating! We want to make it a safe, fun and rewarding experience for everyone. If you’d like to join us, we’ve put together our very own How To Date Good Dating Pledge, consisting of 10 simple ‘Dating Commandments’. Have a look and sign up for free now at www.thepodclass.co.uk You can find out more about Michelle Elman by visiting her website here. If you don’t want to wait each week for new episodes join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad free, all at once. Follow the link to sign up: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/ A Daylight and Sony Music Entertainment Production. _______________________________________________________________________ Morrisons terms & conditions More Card T&C’s: https://www.morrisons.com/more/terms-and-conditions/ General T&C’s https://groceries.morrisons.com/content/terms-and-conditions?srsltid=AfmBOor2xSfFNVtu22I9z5plcQkO6kId8jZ3NSdAF4X4Mt8JQkhO_ylQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

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• 0:45Elizabeth Day?

  to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first...

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Shelley Jensen was about to retire early after selling her veterinary practice for millions, but a moment of vulnerability became a way to take away her rights. Don't you see how destroyed I am as a person? Her husband fought to save her before Shelley lost her freedom forever.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  This is a life or death matter. My wife's life is at stake.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  From Sony Music Entertainment and Novel, this is Free Shelley Jensen, available now on The Binge.

• 1:27Elizabeth Day?

  How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrison's. Welcome to How to Date, the podcast that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day.

• 1:41Speaker 03

  And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach, and every week, we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life.

• 1:50Elizabeth Day?

  And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, please join our wonderful community of subscribers, where you can binge all episodes now, ad-free, all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes.

• 2:07Elizabeth Day?

  Hello Mel.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  Hello gorgeous.

• 2:10Elizabeth Day?

  So you are wearing beautiful pink today.

• 2:13Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:13Elizabeth Day?

  Would you just, is it magenta?

• 2:14Speaker 03

  It is my signature colour. I'd say it's a magenta. It feels like it has a blue undertone.

• 2:19Elizabeth Day?

  It's stunning on you.

• 2:21Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:21Elizabeth Day?

  And it's ushering in the pink of romance.

• 2:24Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 2:25Elizabeth Day?

  Into our lives.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  Like rose quartz.

• 2:27Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly. And last week, we spoke about taking it to the next level.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  Yes, we did.

• 2:32Elizabeth Day?

  And this week, it's going to be a big one.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:35Elizabeth Day?

  We are discussing heartbreak and rejection.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  This is going to be emotional.

• 2:41Elizabeth Day?

  It is.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:42Elizabeth Day?

  And we want to reassure every single listener out there that we have been through it and we do understand. And we have an extraordinary guest coming up who really can speak to the depth of this experience, because it is something that is so unbelievably gut wrenching, particularly if you've got to that stage where you think you've found the person, where you've made yourself horrible, you think you're on the same page, and then something can happen that can throw you into a tailspin and leave you facing a very different kind of life, or at least that's how it feels at the time.

• 3:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. And what I would say about this episode too, is that it might be a little bit tough for some people to listen to. And you know, if you're in a position now where you're going through a breakup, or if it's very recent and very raw, maybe just earmark this one to listen to a little bit later, because it might, it might be a little confronting. But having said that, there's going to be some really good information in here. So when you're ready, come back to it and listen to this and hopefully get lots of lessons and support from us here too.

• 3:47Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you for saying that, Mel. I have been through a divorce and I've been through multiple relationship breakups. And I think they're some of the hardest times of my life. And we will get more into that. But what I want to say from the outset is that Mel and I are living proof that you can survive it.

• 4:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:09Elizabeth Day?

  And I used to hate it when people said to me, you'll look back one day and you'll be grateful for this breakup. It's the least helpful thing.

• 4:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:17Elizabeth Day?

  You can say when someone's really in the thick of it.

• 4:19Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 4:20Elizabeth Day?

  Annoyingly, I now look back and I am grateful for those breakups. I'm grateful that I'm not with those people, that I'm not in those relationships. I'm also grateful for what they taught me. And one of the main things that they taught me was that I could survive them.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  Yes. And let's call out the elephant in the room. You and I are both married. We're both in happy relationships now. But dear listener, we have been there and we're not talking to you today from a position of smug married. We're talking to you from a position full of empathy because we have been there and we know how hard it is. So please take this in the spirit for which it's intended.

• 5:03Elizabeth Day?

  Beautifully put. And on that note, I would love to bring in our fabulous guest because she will be able to speak to so much of this. And I know that so many of you will already know who she is and her story. And we wanted to bring her in straight away because why waste time on us?

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 5:21Elizabeth Day?

  When we've got the fabulous Michelle Elman, the life coach and author who you might know from ITV's This Morning. She's the author of bestselling books, including The Joy of Being Selfish and The Selfish Romantic. So she really does know a thing or two about modern romance. In 2024, Michelle got engaged to her partner of three years. She posted on Instagram the first time she had shared his face with her 500,000 followers. Within an hour, she received a DM that would change her life forever. It was from one of her followers, revealing Michelle's fiance had been unfaithful. I can't even imagine how that must have felt. But she's with us today. Michelle, a very, very warm welcome

• 6:06Elizabeth Day?

  to How To Date.

• 6:07Speaker 04

  Thanks for having me on. It's honestly so unreal being in front of both of you because I'm such a big fan.

• 6:12Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, that's so lovely of you. Well, we're huge admirers of yours. I wonder if we could structure our conversation into three parts. So the first one, we'll be dealing with the shock, the immediacy of what happens. The second part will be dealing with the pain and how that affects you. And the third one is the bit that we want to get to, which is the survival, the recovery and the lessons that we learn along the way. Michelle, can I take you back to that moment that you had this horrendous discovery? What was the shock like for you?

• 6:43Speaker 04

  I've never really had anything like this where I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep. Like, I've, I've, for context, I've been through some shit in the world. So I've had fifteen surgeries, I've gone through PTSD, trauma, all at a very young age. So I'm a tough person. So for something to rattle me and rattle me like this. It was the whiplash of, I was engaged on the Saturday. On the Sunday, I posted it twenty four hours after it happened. And within an hour, I got a DM. And that day, he was with me the whole time. Like, he was with me when I got the first message. The first message said, hey, is your fiance and his name?

• 7:28Speaker 04

  I trusted him so much, I thought it was a colleague. So I was like, oh, this person knows you. When I say I trusted him, like, not only did I trust him, my friends trusted him, my family trusted him. He had asked my dad for his blessing in December. Um, yeah.

• 7:42Elizabeth Day?

  How long had he been together when you got engaged?

• 7:44Speaker 04

  Three years, so.

• 7:46Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so sorry. And how long had he been unfaithful for?

• 7:50Speaker 04

  Six months.

• 7:52Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, the, the trauma of that, I mean, is there such a thing as betrayal trauma?

• 7:57Speaker 04

  Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And so the, the thinking around trauma is that it takes about three months to settle in. And I would say that's accurate to my lived experience, that the first three months. I couldn't understand why I wasn't more angry, and I couldn't understand why I wasn't more sad. All I felt was grateful and a relief. I was like, I was saved. Thank God this woman messaged me. Like, at least I didn't marry him. I was gonna wait until our marriage day to share a photo of him. That's where, yeah, it was, it was survival mode. I remember there were points, especially within the first week. There would be times I would just stare out the window, like, the motto for that phase of my life was one day at a time, even just one hour at a time.

• 8:41Speaker 04

  And so that first day, I didn't make any decisions about whether to stay or leave. He shockingly left five minutes after I found out, so. The information. So he didn't leave me, like the relationship. Right. We were actually on the way to go to London. And he recalls me telling him to leave the house. I don't remember me saying that. I don't remember a lot of that day. And so he thought he was being respectful by respecting what I wanted. Well, I wish he'd have that respect six months prior. Well, yeah. And also you don't actually leave. And I ended up getting all the information from, for lack of a better term, the other woman. I actually called her and at this point I didn't trust anything he said anyway. So she told me everything and she wasn't the only one. There were two other women.

• 9:26Speaker 04

  Um, which he admitted to. Um, and then the ironic thing is because we've been trying for a baby for eight months. I had booked a solo trip because that's one of my like top goals in life was like I was, I've always wanted to go on a solo trip. So I thought like, well, since I'm going to be pregnant soon, let's go. And I decided to still go. And I think that's actually where a lot of my healing took place. Like I. It's not what I planned and it wasn't what I was expecting at all, but like. I'm tough. I can do this. And like, it was my, it's my first heartbreak. Like he was the first guy I ever lov- loved and.

• 10:07Speaker 04

  And I still do love him. That's the like sad part. And I think sometimes people get scared of saying that because. Especially when I say it amongst my friends, they worry that I'll get back together with him. But I'm a big believer in you don't decide to stay based on how much you love a person because actually you'll always stay. Especially if it's a long term relationship. And then I called him at like six in the morning and I was like, it's over. I'm like, I, I love you. I probably always will. And I forgive you. I actually forgave him immediately. But this can't work. There's no, there's no trust. There's no respect. There's no any of it. Did he have?

• 10:45Speaker 03

  An explanation as to why he chose to do this.

• 10:49Speaker 04

  So my personal belief from my coaching, learning, training around psychology is you cheat for two reasons. One, because of the individual, so because of him, and two, because of the relationship. People who cheat for those different reasons behave in very different ways. So if they want out of the relationship, they leave clues everywhere and they want to be found out. He was not one of them because he deleted all the evidence. Literally, the only way I could have found out was through this woman. And ultimately, if there was something wrong with the relationship, he wouldn't have proposed. So it was a him problem. And what he says is, I never felt good enough for you. And I always thought one day you'd find out how awful a person I was.

• 11:33Speaker 04

  And essentially, it was a self fulfilling prophecy of like, I said to him, like, it's really sad because you were good enough for me. You've always been good enough for me, but you then acted in line with that belief. And that's what made you not good enough. But he never even told me that beforehand.

• 11:49Elizabeth Day?

  So interesting that there's this lack of honesty, and I say that without judgment. There was just a fundamental lack of honesty there. Honesty, it sounds like with himself, about himself as well. But there's so much that I want to pick up on in that story that you have expressed so powerfully. So thank you first of all. One of them is, as you so rightly put, there's a difference between love and the actions of a person. You can still love someone even when they betray you in the worst possible ways. Even when, I'm not saying he was, but even when they are abusive.

• 12:27Elizabeth Day?

  I have personal experience of that in the sense that I was in an abusive relationship, mostly emotional abuse, once physical. And I remember when that physical incident happened, vividly thinking, I don't want to tell anyone. Because if I tell any of my friends or loved ones, I know that they will say, I should leave. And I don't want to hear that because then I'll have to do it. And I think that that's a really important distinction to make. Also, as it pertains to the aftermath of a breakup or a rejection, you can still love someone and it's still be right that you are not with them. And whoever it was who gave you that advice, take it hour by hour.

• 13:10Elizabeth Day?

  I was lucky enough to have a best friend, Emma, who you know,

• 13:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:13Elizabeth Day?

  who's also a psychotherapist, who is unofficially my life coach. And I remember her saying, do whatever you need to do, whatever it is on any given day that you feel you need to do, within the parameters of reason, do it. If you need the bottle of red wine, you need the bottle of red wine. If you want to text that person, text them. Now, not everyone would agree with that. And as it turned out, because she'd given me permission to do whatever I needed to do, I didn't need to do all of the things.

• 13:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:40Elizabeth Day?

  But it was about having grace for myself in whatever I was feeling and not feeling guilty about the feeling itself, because there's enough to beat yourself up about at that stage.

• 13:51Speaker 04

  Well, so do whatever you need to do. I, I believe in that. The one thing that I was like, I really want to date.

• 13:58Elizabeth Day?

  Sorry, this is amazing to hear because I did that too.

• 14:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. And everyone judged it, but it was, there was not a moment I've regretted it. It was the hope I needed. It was reclaiming my sexuality, especially after trying for a baby. Like, that's not a romantic process, no matter what anyone says. I met great, wonderful, emotionally intelligent guys. And because I was so fresh from a breakup, I was so transparent and they were so transparent with me. And like, especially casual relationships get treated like this dirty, trashy thing. It was far from that. Like, we both had a duty of care to each other in a casual setting.

• 14:37Elizabeth Day?

  That's so interesting, Mel, because it relates so much to what we have said about getting to know yourself and being able to show up authentically. And I wonder if there is a world in which, as Michelle and I experienced, can you use dating casually as a way to do that?

• 14:54Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And I love the way you said, you basically went into a verbal contract with these men that you had these casual relationships with. So it's honest.

• 15:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 03

  It's, it's adult, you know, it's fair, there's consent there, no one gets hurt. Let's reclaim the word rebound.

• 15:10Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, I'm so here for that.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  It doesn't have to be a negative thing. Like, people say it in a judgmental way, don't they? Oh, that's just a rebound relationship. But that can be so positive and therapeutic.

• 15:21Elizabeth Day?

  Trampoline-ing is fun.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  Yes, as long as you're wearing a good bra.

• 15:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:28Elizabeth Day?

  Did you have any fear at this point? So we're talking about the immediate aftermath, that three month period where you were just still processing and possibly in fight or flight. Was there a fear attached to being single?

• 15:42Speaker 04

  There was a fear around my age, if I'm being really honest. I was 30, trying for a baby. I was doing, I was doing it all right. I know 30 is not old. Like, I want to be very clear about that. But there was a thing that morning where I went, what if this means me not having a baby? And what if, I believe there will be another love of my life, but what if I don't meet him in time? And there was a moment, it was like this voice almost outside of myself of like, I'd rather never be a mother than be a mother to his kid. I don't want to bring another version of him in the world. And I've never thought that. I've never had that thought of like, I think I'm okay if I'm not a mother then. I think

• 16:27Speaker 04

  it was almost like this more adult version of a realisation I had when I was 21, where my first relationship was quite emotionally abusive and horrible. And I remember I left that relationship and the first feeling I had was relief. And I was like, single is better than a bad relationship. And then I realised, like, this now more grown up version is it's better to not have a kid than have a kid with a father who either is not going to participate or not be a good role model to that child.

• 17:05Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted. But just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable. So you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 17:50Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail.

• 18:06Elizabeth Day?

  I have a very specific question, which is whether you both believe in the block the ex tactic, where there's no communication, you block them from all forms of social media.

• 18:19Speaker 04

  Yes, I do. I think you need some space after the breakup. I think there is a potential to be friends at some point. But I also think for healing to take place, you need a period of no contact. You don't get that access to me anymore.

• 18:31Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, I think that's key. I've done both ways. And although it was harder, the blocking and no contact was probably the better one for me. And the thing that really made sense to me was, no, you don't have access to me as a friend, as a partner. And you also don't have access to my life through the window of social media. Mel, do you have a strong view on this?

• 18:55Speaker 03

  I absolutely agree with you. I really do. In fact, I've had conversations with some clients where we've taken that even further to not just block the ex-partner, but their friends as well. And that's not an F you to the friends, but letting them know, I'm blocking you for a period of time because I can't see him on your profile, him in shared photos with you. So just removing that whole sphere to make sure that there are no trigger points. I love that you talk about giving yourself grace. I think that's something that our listeners could really. Learn from and take on board because I think when things like this happen, there's a tendency to be really hard on yourself and to be looking for, you know, irrational things like what did

• 19:38Speaker 03

  I do to deserve this? Not that you ever would, but that's where the brain goes, of course, you know?

• 19:42Speaker 04

  I think that's where my life coaching training came in because I think if you start that, you're gonna do damage to yourself. Like, that's where your pain of the heartbreak is actually self inflicted. There's a life coaching exercise I give of writing a hundred reasons while you're dateable and I, I do it, I recommend it all the time, but I've also done it. I know what I bring to the table. Like, it's on you that it's your loss and it's on you that you messed it up. I'm not taking accountability for something I did not do.

• 20:12Elizabeth Day?

  Preach.

• 20:13Speaker 03

  Absolutely brilliant.

• 20:14Elizabeth Day?

  Clip that. Um, before we move on to the second part of the process, which is the pain and how it affects us, I wanted to ask about rejection and heartbreak from the other perspective. So perhaps someone who has done the breaking up and how much self sabotage might play into that. Mel, could you just give us a little insight into how heartbreak plays out in that scenario?

• 20:40Speaker 03

  Well, it's interesting, Michelle, in your ex's story, you know, you, you describe him feeling so unworthy that he, he engaged in behaviour that pushed you away and ultimately ended the relationship. And that is something that we see, you know, with people with really low self esteem, they often, it's this sense of, well, I'm gonna hurt you before you can hurt me. And it can unravel some of the best relationships. It's a desperate set of behaviours on his behalf, really, isn't it? If, if that's where it's coming from, if it's coming from that, that desperation for validation above and beyond what he was getting from his relationship. It's, it's an absolute cry for help.

• 21:25Elizabeth Day?

  I wonder if we can talk now about the process you went through after those initial three months where you went on your solo trip, you threw yourself into dating, you had your sister and your loved ones that you could call on. Part of that was numbness and staring out of the window. And then you get to the point, I imagine, where the reality begins to hit you. Did you feel at that stage, sort of three months in, that you were reconfiguring the life you thought you were going to have?

• 21:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, I missed his family a lot. I had a really great relationship with his family because my family's not in this country. Like, they really were my, like, support. The loss of the companionship was a really big thing, and especially at the three months mark, I started thinking about how, like, as a society, there's an author called Robert Putnam, who talks about loss of social capital. We have become so reliant on our romantic partners that it is so much more than just the loss of the person I was dating. It was my best friend. It was my family. Like, I've never had to go through something alone for the last three years, and that makes you feel so lonely.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  And I think also when, like, the crying and everything hit, like, there's a part of me that was like, is this ever gonna end? The lowest I probably felt, being completely honest, was about a month ago. And it was the weekends. Like, the weekends were just so hard. And it's a loneliness I don't really think I've ever really gone through. And, and the reason why I love him, is I still love him, is because he actually gave me more love than he took away. And like, I know everyone thinks I should be focusing on the infidelity, but the loss of that, I just try, yeah.

• 23:23Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, Michelle.

• 23:27Elizabeth Day?

  It's the toughest, toughest thing. It is so tough, and I'm so proud of you for living through it.

• 23:36Speaker 04

  I also feel like it's something that's not really spoken enough about. Like, that it is the practical day to day that is a little bit harder. Or like, there would be moments where I'd get off the tube and I was like, oh, I should check with him whether we have milk. And I was like. Oh, like, that's not my life right now. And you kind of, you do forget.

• 23:58Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, it's that feeling, isn't it? When you wake up in the mornings and your first thought is to roll over and your partner will be there and then you remember, sort of five minutes I was waking up. And that horror of abandonment, that's what it triggered in me. And it's such a difficult and horrible place to be. And like you, weekends were soul crushing.

• 24:22Speaker 04

  More importantly, people move on, like life keeps going and you feel like you're still stuck. I, I won't lie, I had a few, why are we still talking about this? And I was like, well, I didn't really feel it in the first three months, but I'm feeling it now. And I think sometimes that's where like breakups don't come in order. And so when all your friends, your friends are doing the best they can, my friends are certainly doing the best I can. But they also have things they're going through and they, they supported as long as they could. And then at some point I have to stand on my own two feet, which unfortunately also coincides with the point where I felt the worst.

• 25:01Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Mel, what advice would you give to anyone listening to this right now who is in that stage that Michelle so powerfully describes where maybe they really need to work on building up their own self-esteem, but what do they reach for to do it?

• 25:16Speaker 03

  I, I'm going to go back to what you said earlier about giving yourself some grace, you know, and I, I think this is where being kind to yourself is so, so important here because, you know, we, we've all been through breakups and, and, and one of the things that we learn is that one of the hardest things is about the way we treat ourselves. Now, thankfully for you, you've got a lot of training in this area and you're very self-aware. So you, I'm hearing that you're able to separate out, you know, some of that self-talk, but still, you know, as you're highlighting today, it's, it's very raw right now.

• 25:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:50Speaker 03

  And like any grief process, it's not linear. There's two steps forward, three steps back. And, you know, I think it's very insightful there that you've pointed out that your friends have moved on, you know, they sort of have this idea that she's gone through a breakup, we'll give her some love now for, you know, seventeen point four days and then we'll move on. Um, but you're here now.

• 26:15Speaker 05

  Two Girls, One Ghost. Two Girls, One Ghost is the most haunted podcast in America. Where each week we dive into all things strange, spooky and supernatural, and share stories of paranormal encounters from our community of listeners. Satisfy that spooky itch and entertain your inner witch with Two Girls, One Ghost. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts and check us out on YouTube at Two Girls, One Ghost. But be warned, side effects might include a haunting or two. Listen at your own risk.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Shelley Jensen was about to retire early after selling her veterinary practice for millions. But a moment of vulnerability became a way to take away her rights. Don't you see how destroyed I am as a person? Her husband fought to save her before Shelley lost her freedom forever.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  This is a life or death matter. My wife's life is at stake.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  From Sony Music Entertainment and Novel, this is Free Shelley Jensen. Available now on The Binge.

• 27:19Elizabeth Day?

  That idea of being pitched into this new world where your future vision of life has been snatched away from you. Do you think, Mel, that that also presents an opportunity?

• 27:31Speaker 03

  Hmm, absolutely. I guess you've got to arrive there in your own time and space, don't you? You're only, as an individual, will you know if you've arrived there. But absolutely, it's opportunity, you know, as, as all transitions are. Once you can separate yourself from some of the pain and move through that, and of course, the only way through it is through it, as you're experiencing right now, Michelle. And thank you again so much for sharing this with us because, I don't know about you, darling, but I can feel it. Like, we can feel, we can feel what you're experiencing right now.

• 28:09Speaker 04

  What's interesting about it coming at different phases, though, is actually that hope and that possibility of the future actually came very early on. So it's kind of carried me through. My summer, I joke, I had a hot girl summer. I really did. I love that. Because I had a free diary, which means I could say yes spontaneously. It made me question a lot of things I thought I wanted in my life because you become a different person. So what you want becomes different as well. And then also in the dating, I was like, What's the one thing I didn't do the last time I was single and what's the opportunity I get to do now? And the one thing I probably had slight regret around is I'm a very safety conscious person and I've always been quite careful around like

• 28:53Speaker 04

  having someone in my apartment and as a result, I probably didn't have as much fun as I wanted to have because I was so nervous and I was like, I'm actually, I'll still be like safe and do all the checks, especially on dating apps of they're real people and all of that. But I wanted to let go of the fear around it. And so it was that thing of like, I get this opportunity again to be single. And I truly think we talk about being single in such an awful way in society and I just wish people knew the joy and the power that it had.

• 29:25Speaker 03

  Well, you've just changed it from saying I have to be single to I get to be single. I think that's very powerful.

• 29:34Elizabeth Day?

  And I also relate to that, drawing a discreet veil over it. But I definitely, as someone who had been in a series of monogamous relationships from the age of nineteen to thirty six, I got divorced. Different people, but essentially back to back. I was like, I need to get out there and sow some oats.

• 29:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:51Elizabeth Day?

  And I did that totally unapologetically and it was brilliant. I don't regret a single second of it.

• 29:56Speaker 04

  Me neither.

• 29:57Elizabeth Day?

  And I look back on it with a lot of fondness, also glad that it's in my rear view mirror, but really glad that I did it.

• 30:03Speaker 04

  Hmm. There were moments when I was dating, I was like, I can't believe I would have died not having experienced this.

• 30:10Speaker 03

  I love that mindset.

• 30:12Speaker 04

  I was actually going to get married to a man without having to experience this.

• 30:16Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. We'll talk about it when we're off.

• 30:19Speaker 04

  But don't talk about how dating in your thirties is so much better than in your twenties. That's another thing. Because people are more self-aware, people are more emotionally intelligent and we always talk about it like past baggage. But actually, people have lived a past and that's okay because they've also learnt from it. Yeah.

• 30:37Elizabeth Day?

  I just want to pick up on what we were saying there about working through something and living through something and that being the only way to go on the other side of it. And I think that's so true. And I also think that heartbreak can sometimes feel, as we've discussed, very like grief. And the metaphor that I reach for when I think about grief in my life is that it's not that I've ever gotten over it. It's that, it's like a A tiny drop of red paint in a bucket of white paint. You stir it together and it will forever change the colour of your life and of that bucket of paint. It will become this kind of pale pink. But there's something really extraordinary about that, too.

• 31:18Elizabeth Day?

  That in a way, that's a means that you will always be shaped by this thing that you experience, both the bad and the good. That there's something about that that actually informs how you experience life, the texture. And I think that's really important.

• 31:35Speaker 04

  All of that stuff is, is, if you want, if you wash away the whole relationship and diminish it and just want to focus on, he's an asshole, you don't get those gifts. Whereas I'm like, I learnt so mu- I'm so grateful for that experience. If that's the only experience I get of having been in love, I'm glad it happened. There is no part of me that regrets. Even if I knew how it ended, I would have done it again.

• 31:59Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Let's move on to the final part, which is the survival, the recovery and the lessons. We've already heard so much about that from your perspective, Michelle. I suppose one big question is, can you forgive someone who has treated you badly or not turned out to be the person you thought they were? And should you forgive someone for your own benefit? Mel, what's your take on that?

• 32:29Speaker 03

  Wow, I, I'm very interested in the idea of post-traumatic growth as opposed to the stress that we talk about more often. And I think one of the aspects of that, so in order to move through that process and actually grow through it and grow beyond it, is a, a certain type of forgiveness. Now, whether that is forgiveness of the person or the behaviour or of yourself, I think that that varies, given any, whatever situation you're in. But I think there has to be an element of forgiveness because that's, that, that is a function of letting go. And until you let go of the angst.

• 33:13Speaker 03

  You cannot move through it.

• 33:15Elizabeth Day?

  I love that you say forgiveness of yourself can be part of that because it very often is that, isn't it? It's forgiveness of yourself for making the decisions, but you did the best that you could with the available information at the time. Michelle, have you forgiven him?

• 33:30Speaker 04

  Yes, I did immediately. I did it the next day. I was like, I forgive you.

• 33:34Speaker 03

  People might not understand.

• 33:36Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, I was about to say, that was so impressive. How did you do it?

• 33:39Speaker 04

  Do you know what? At the moment, I didn't know either. And I don't, I don't know whether it's because he was the, he might not have been the best partner, but he was the best family I knew. And

• 33:50Speaker 03

  But how did you forgive his decision and his behaviour?

• 33:54Speaker 04

  Because it was all about him. He wasn't trying to hurt me. Like, it was him acting out of his insecurity. And whether people want to call me naive or not, I don't think the intention was malicious or even about me. I don't think he was thinking about me. I think he loved me to the best of his ability. And it's on him that he didn't improve that behaviour. It's on him that he wasn't honest with me. I just, I knew him. He, this is where, I find it hard to say the truth because the truth makes me sound naive. But the truth is, I don't think he was trying to hurt me. He didn't believe he deserved

• 34:34Speaker 04

  a good, healthy relationship. And so he ruined it. But he, he wasn't thinking about, that's what I believe.

• 34:43Elizabeth Day?

  Gosh, I think that's such an important point. And the fact that you can say, I knew him. I think there's something there that is probably very valuable for listeners. To reassure yourself that you did know this person and you do know this person. And actually, can you apply that knowledge to this situation in a way that is most forgiving of yourself too?

• 35:09Speaker 03

  But very hard to do in the moment.

• 35:11Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 35:12Speaker 03

  You know, because most of us are not life coaches. You know, most of us, just, you know, normal people going through life will be so deep in the emotion and it's so fuzzy. You know, there's, it's fight or flight going on there. And, you know, it's so impossible to actually have that coherent thought through the process and to be able to get that distance and get perspective.

• 35:33Elizabeth Day?

  I think one of the things I kept coming back to was that idea that actions are character. Both the good actions and the bad actions. And ultimately, With my last breakup, I came to the conclusion that that person wasn't the person that I was inventing him to be because of the way he'd acted. So that was my clear evidential base.

• 35:58Speaker 04

  Right.

• 35:59Elizabeth Day?

  So therefore, that story that I'm so good at telling myself, that it would all work out if only. All of that was just a story based on a lie I was telling myself because I kept returning to the actions. And I found that quite helpful. It sounds really dark and nihilistic, but the other thing that I would like to say about that particular breakup is that I genuinely am so grateful for it now. Because in the aftermath of that breakup, I felt like such a failure in that moment. And that moment was the genesis of How To Fail, the podcast that I launched. And from that podcast, my life transformed.

• 36:41Elizabeth Day?

  So I'm not saying everyone needs to go and launch a podcast or become a fully qualified life coach. But I am saying that there will be some sort of meaning within the dirt and the confusion and the loss and the heartbreak. Just have faith that at some point you will find some glimmer of meaning.

• 37:02Speaker 04

  I think it's this thing of what if this was the way it was meant to be.

• 37:07Elizabeth Day?

  Eckhart Tolle says that, and it really blew my mind. What if, what if you had decided for this to happen to you? How might that change your perception?

• 37:15Speaker 04

  But this is why it was so strange. Like, you can't, you can't take the life coach out of me because that morning I was like, what if this was? And you know what it was? It was the fact that I saw that DM. Imagine that was, I have 500,000 followers. That was the day I announced my engagement. Imagine my DMs that day. And yet I saw her DM. And not only that, her DM was gift delivered to me in my primary section of my DMs, where my friends and family came in because I'd replied to her in 2021. Because she thanked me for giving her confidence to date because she was insecure about how inexperienced she was. And I had replied saying, thank you so much. And she said, I've bought all your books for all of my friends and family. And like, you've changed my life. And now I'm going to date your boyfriend. Well, she didn't know.

• 38:00Speaker 04

  She didn't, to be fair. But like, but that, that's why it came into my primary section. And so the moment that, like, obviously it took a while, but like, actually it only took till the next morning that I just went. I feel like I've been protected here.

• 38:15Elizabeth Day?

  I think what we're saying here is that whatever your situation, if you are currently experiencing heartbreak or rejection, it's a really good idea to take a look at the evidence, a look at the evidence of how someone acted, a look at the evidence of what you know about them and what you know about yourself, and to objectively take some truth from that that enables you to see yourself as separate from what has happened to you. I'm very aware that we're speaking as three women who experienced big breakups before they had children. And I wonder, if someone's listening to this and they're going through

• 38:55Elizabeth Day?

  a divorce or a long-term relationship breakup where they do have children involved, I wonder how that might change one's feelings. Do you think you feel that sense of fury and upset on behalf of your children too, Mel?

• 39:11Speaker 03

  Well, I haven't been through that personally, but certainly I can imagine if I was going through a breakup as a mother, wow, all I can think about is the image of the lioness. And that's how I'm feeling right now with the idea of this. If I was to think about previous breakups that I went through and imagining doing that now with Maddie in my life, I can't imagine being rational.

• 39:38Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 39:39Speaker 03

  So all this talk that we're having here about, you know, looking at that breakup in a rational way, identifying the evidence points, being really rational and logical, I think that would be almost impossible now that I'm a parent. So for parents out there who are listening to this, I think that message about some self-compassion becomes even stronger. To give yourself that grace, that, you know, if you want to, you know, scream into your pillow every morning, that that's okay, because that the rage and the pain and all of that is going to be multiplied by probably a million when you're a parent, because you're not just protecting yourself, but your little ones as well.

• 40:24Elizabeth Day?

  And I think Co-parenting must be incredibly hard to navigate in the aftermath of some difficult breakup. I mean, every breakup is difficult in its own way. And in my experience, the co-parenting that I have seen done most effectively is one where the two people involved have been able to put aside their personal differences for the sake of the children and to always centre their children in however they approach major life stages or holidays. And sometimes that has come as a result of professional help. And sometimes it's come because they've left it a period of time before they've returned to the conversations,

• 41:06Elizabeth Day?

  where they can set aside that initial feeling of anger and they are able to centre something more important than either of them. But I'm not doubting for a second how unbelievably difficult that is.

• 41:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think it takes an incredible level of maturity, as you know, those two co-parents, if you're looking at that example, to rise above their own pain and literally just focus on the children.

• 41:32Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 41:33Speaker 03

  I think that would be incredibly difficult for people. And that's where, you know, I think, as you rightly point out, professional intervention, if you have access to it, is so smart. Because we can't navigate this stuff on our own.

• 41:45Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. This has been such an extraordinary conversation. Thank you both. Thank you particularly, Michelle, for your honesty and your strength. It's been a revelation.

• 41:57Speaker 04

  You caught me in a raw moment.

• 41:58Elizabeth Day?

  It was just amazing. And I want to give you the pleasure of giving our listeners this week's exercise.

• 42:05Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 42:06Elizabeth Day?

  What would you like them to do?

• 42:08Speaker 04

  So I do think that formative exercise in my dating life from the very beginning, like I'm talking since I was 21 years old, is that I wrote 100 reasons why someone would date me. And the idea behind it is that you should always know what you bring to the table. And that means when someone rattles that boat, whether it's you not getting matches on a dating app, or the breakup I just went through, or infidelity, you still know what you brought to the table. And it also means someone else can't convince you that you deserve less.

• 42:36Elizabeth Day?

  How long did it take you to write the first 100 reasons?

• 42:38Speaker 04

  About four hours.

• 42:39Elizabeth Day?

  Oh my gosh.

• 42:40Speaker 04

  In one sitting. I wouldn't let myself get up. That's the rule. So this actually, this coaching exercise actually comes from my life coach, Michelle Zelly. And she said there were two waves and you hit like a point at about like 40, 50 where you run out of reasons and you sit there until the second wave comes. And if you get up, you're telling yourself you're not worth that time. So I sat there and I sat there and I stared at the piece of paper and it took four hours. But I was like, I deserve these four hours. And it's the best thing I've ever done.

• 43:08Elizabeth Day?

  A great exercise. Just make sure you don't have anywhere to get to, just in case it takes you longer than you think.

• 43:14Speaker 04

  Do it on a weekend.

• 43:14Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Thank you so much, Michelle Elman. You've been a fantastic guest on How to Date. And next week, Mel, can you believe it? It's our last episode. Oh my gosh, I'm not ready to leave you. I'm not ready to leave you either. I'm experiencing heartbreak at the thought of it. Me too. I'm feeling a bit triggered. I know. We're going to get through it together. We are. And we are going to talk about the most important relationship you'll ever have, which spoiler alert, it is the one that you have with yourself. We will see you next week. Thank you so much for joining us on How to Date. Goodbye from me. And goodbye from me. How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrison's.

• 43:54Elizabeth Day?

  Mel and I are on a mission to revolutionise dating. We want to make it better for everyone. And what better way to do that than to get you lovely listeners to sign up to a good dating pledge. Mel and I have designed 10 dating commandments. Things like, I will communicate clearly and with kindness. I will not ghost or breadcrumb. I will always ask consent. And you can go and sign up just by putting your email in. That's all we ask. You can go and sign up at thepodclass.co.uk. That's thepodclass, P-O-D-C-L-A-S-S.co.uk. Let's make dating better for everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Please do like, follow and share with everyone you

• 44:37Elizabeth Day?

  know who might want to listen to. And who knows, one of them might even turn out to be your future romantic partner. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.