The Man Who Made Me Rethink My Marriage with Amber Rae

Amber Rae was married when she looked into the eyes of a stranger and instantly fell in love, and she's here to tell her story. The bestselling author shares the truth about her marriage and lack of intimacy, what she was lying to herself about, the problem with "good on paper guy," being a people pleaser, and how falling for someone else while married turned her world upside down. We talk about how everything transpired, how her husband watched her fall in love in real time, backlash and losing friends over her decisions, and more. Before Amber joins us, we're recapping Ashley's special filming and Rayna seeing an old hookup 15 years later. Enjoy! Follow Amber on Instagram at @heyamberrae, and get her book Loveable. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for live show tickets and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Square Space: Get a free trial at https://squarespace.com/gge and use code GGE for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Better Help: Get 10% off your first month at https://betterhelp.com/gge. Function: Our first 1000 listeners get a $100 credit toward their membership at https://functionhealth.com/GGE or use code GGE100. Smart Mouth: Get a special discount on your next purchase at http://www.smartmouth.com/GGE. Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at https://rocketmoney.com/gge. Saks Fifth Avenue: Head to Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  So four years ago, while married, I looked into the eyes of a stranger and I had this knowing feeling of he's your person.

• 0:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to another episode of Girl Scatty E.

• 0:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome back. Hopefully, we're coming off an Eagles win.

• 0:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Maybe.

• 0:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Maybe. What's to say? We are playing the Vikings.

• 0:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Steelers beat the Vikings.

• 0:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, thank you. And while we're here, thank you, guys, for coming out to my Minneapolis shows. Great time, Raina. I just hated being there without you. I love those people so much.

• 0:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I love Minneapolis. Love performing in Minneapolis.

• 0:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Truly the best.

• 0:48Rayna Greenberg?

  You, you have been breadcrumbing living in certain places, but Minneapolis, you hard were like, I will live here. And I was like,

• 0:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel so safe there.

• 0:56Rayna Greenberg?

  We will build sets in different cities and you won't know we're in the same cities. You'll be in Minneapolis. I'll be in New York.

• 1:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just, I told them when I got on stage, I was like, I feel so safe, you guys. It's giving Canada. We're close. We're close. We can get up there if we need to escape. But it just, it's such a great city. It's like a perfect city.

• 1:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Everyone's nice.

• 1:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'll die on this hill.

• 1:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Everyone's nice. Tons of bridges. You love bridges.

• 1:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  The food is good.

• 1:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Winters are rough.

• 1:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's okay. It's okay. Just be cuddled up.

• 1:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Naive, you're punk.

• 1:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Anyway, I hope we fucking annihilated the Vikings. We'll remove this if we didn't. Our editor loves this. She loves this about me. It's Sunday. We might have to do a cut.

• 1:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Steelers doing great. Our J. R. A. quarterback that I've made fun of, he's doing great. He's doing great.

• 1:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Anyway, go Birds. Go Steelers, I guess.

• 1:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, you know, we're a big Pennsylvania team.

• 1:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it'll be a P. A. Super Bowl either way.

• 1:43Rayna Greenberg?

  It's a P. A. Podcast.

• 1:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Anyways, all right, let's thank some of our partners and then we'll jump right into it. Thanks to Squarespace. Get a free trial at Squarespace.com/GGE and use the code GGE for 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. And BetterHelp, get 10% off your first month at BetterHelp.com/GGE. And Function, our first 1,000 listeners get a $100 credit towards your membership at FunctionHealth.com/GGE or use code GGE100.

• 2:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to Smart Mouth. Get a special discount on your next Smart Mouth purchase at smartmouth.com/gge. And thank you to Rocket Money. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at rocketmoney.com/gge. And you know what it is, Saks Fifth Avenue.

• 2:25Rayna Greenberg?

  You know what to do.

• 2:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's a Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style. Cheers. We have our matching Chef Rose mugs, little 4pm latte. We talked about this Thursday, if you guys missed the snack.

• 2:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Ashley bought me a little gift on TikTok.

• 2:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  My first TikTok shop purchase ever, and I have no regrets.

• 2:47Rayna Greenberg?

  You like to buy gifts for people.

• 2:50Rayna Greenberg?

  You do. You're a gifty.

• 2:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm not gifty. I guess I see things sometimes and I think about people and I'm like, I have to give them that. It'll be so funny, you know, but we have people in our lives that are such that high level of thoughtful gifting and I'm just like, I could never.

• 3:04Rayna Greenberg?

  A lot of our LA friends, it's a real LA thing. Kate and Chad were on our show and then they immediately sent us flowers to say thank you.

• 3:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God.

• 3:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Sally was on our show and sent us flowers. I would never think to do that.

• 3:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  The flowers I got this week, and I had to like leave them in hotel rooms.

• 3:18Rayna Greenberg?

  So I was gonna bring you flowers for your special taping, but I was like, what is she gonna do with these?

• 3:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I was in New York starting Wednesday. I went to Minneapolis Tuesday. I got it. It was incredible. Thank you guys for coming out like last minute. Two shows, a late show Tuesday. I'm just, I'm humbled beyond belief and we'll get to more of it. But I got to New York Wednesday. My college girlfriend sent me flowers for the special, like Wednesday?

• 3:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Wednesday. They messaged me asking me when you'd get there.

• 3:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so I had them to like look at and be in the room, but then my fiance brought flowers to the special and then his sister sent flowers on special day. They were gorgeous. So that was Saturday. We left Sunday morning. We brought them, put them in the car. We took a car up there, put them in the fucking car just to bring them to the hotel room in Boston because like you don't want to throw them out.

• 4:03Rayna Greenberg?

  What else am I gonna do with them? I bring them in the car?

• 4:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 4:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I was gonna bring you flowers. I was like, what's she gonna do with them?

• 4:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, it's okay.

• 4:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, so it's Monday. We're just getting back from your third. Bachelorette party in Vegas. I mean, it is my favorite way to do Vegas. We're recording this ahead of time, but like, club, another club. Like, it is just, we have like dinner reservations, we have drinks, we have club, we're gonna go see Chippendales. Like, I am so excited. 24 hours in Vegas. I don't even, I don't need more than that. 18 hours in Vegas. I need one night.

• 4:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm glad we pulled it off, hopefully. Who's to say? We are recording ahead of time and we can talk more about it next week, but as of now, the itinerary is to get there Saturday midday, stay at the Cosmo. We love the Cosmo. That's where we perform. That's where we kicked off our 2024 tour on September 21st. Do you remember? The 21st night of September 2024? And just go to the pool a little bit and then do drinks in that gorgeous chandelier bar in the Cosmo. I think, is it called the chandelier bar?

• 4:57Rayna Greenberg?

  I think it's called Chandelier Bar.

• 4:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then dinner at Catch. We love a Catch.

• 5:01Rayna Greenberg?

  I love Catch.

• 5:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  My parents, I put my whole family at Catch before the special.

• 5:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I told you something. I like Catch.

• 5:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's always good. We did your birthday at Catch. We love it.

• 5:10Rayna Greenberg?

  I know it's like a club restaurant, but like the food's always good, the service is good.

• 5:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 5:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Call me Bridget and Tunnel, I don't care.

• 5:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. So, and then, straight to Chippendales, which is an honor. I mean, we had the Chippendales at our Vegas show, and when we were there, they were like, can you guys come to the show? We did not have time. And so I kept this in my back pocket and I was like, buzz buzz. And so, we're doing that. And then after, we're going to the Chainsmokers at XS. And we're gonna be on the stage. And then-

• 5:38Rayna Greenberg?

  People are gonna be like, who are these ladies on the stage?

• 5:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Stop, Raina, we're all so good. We're doing all sparkly.

• 5:44Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I'm so much hotter than I was in my twenties. And my thirties, to be honest.

• 5:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, I saw those old pics. We were throwing around this past weekend.

• 5:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Jackie unearthed a photo of me from like 10 years ago. And I was showing it to our agent too, and he was like, huh.

• 5:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Seriously. No, me too. I mean, me too. Oh my God.

• 6:03Rayna Greenberg?

  I look pretty bad today, but normally.

• 6:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then, I wanna do, hopefully we can pull this off. We'll see. I mean, we're gonna be going to bed at like 4 o'clock in the morning, but I want everyone to come into my suite Sunday morning and order like a bunch of room service and have like a pajama party and like recap the night, even though the night was a few hours before.

• 6:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Can I just tell you the funnest recap of a night I've had? In so long was the day after your special. I was like fielding. I want to talk about your special, but like the morning after, just like talking to every single person individually. I was like, I haven't had a recap morning like this in a long time.

• 6:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  What was there like tea?

• 6:36Rayna Greenberg?

  There was some. There was some tea. Yeah, there was tea. But just like, it was all the same people that are there for you and I always like plus more people, plus your family. And the green room was like 50 people. I was there the whole night.

• 6:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  50 people.

• 6:48Rayna Greenberg?

  It was great.

• 6:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  We went out and did a photo on stage afterwards and it was like, people just kept coming. It was like a fucking clown car. I, I mean, yeah, we'll talk about it.

• 6:59Rayna Greenberg?

  Let's talk about it now.

• 7:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so I shot my special last weekend out or you know, whatever, the 11th in New York. It was so beautiful. I can't, I mean, I haven't, I'm not going to post any photos. I want you guys to see the special and see the set and see the vision come to life. And I couldn't believe it. I mean, I had a set designer, of course, and the production team I worked with was incredible. I'll do some like more thank yous and talk about everybody who did everything when it comes out. But the way we transformed that set, they did. I mean, I obviously was in on this and I had a vision that they really brought to life. But then the venue couldn't have been more perfect. It was so stunning. I mean, this was like the best night of my life. I think like I've never,

• 7:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like it's the, one of the biggest things I've ever accomplished. And we've accomplished so much. And I've had these moments throughout this career with Girls Gotta Eat and like the Chicago Theater being one and, you know, stepping out on that stage. I'll Never Forget It with You. And we've certainly had those things. And I think there's still more Raina and I want to do. And I can think about those and what they're going to feel like as well. But for me, this was like a personal thing I did on my own. And I have not experienced anything like this where there's such a huge crew of people making your dream come true. And afterwards, they also were like, can we grab you for a picture with the crew? And I couldn't believe how many people. I didn't know, they were everywhere, all over, you know, like I met as many people as I could, but also I'm busy. You know, obviously my producer was incredible and the set designer and I met as

• 8:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  many people as I could, but I truly didn't understand how many people, like how many, much work from so many people went into this. There was like 30 people, like all there for me. I felt so like, I'm not worthy. Like I, I've never felt so loved and so supported and so accomplished. And like so on a high as I did that day. And I mean, there's just so many different components of it. Like for one, all of you, all you there, you there, you are part of it. And all my friends and family, like my whole family, like my parents, my brother and my sister-in-law and Lindsay and Buck and my friends. Rob came in for it. People flew in for it. It just meant a lot for them to be there.

• 9:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  And the audiences, like I just, like, it just meant so much to do it in New York where we started the podcast, where I really got into comedy. These audiences could not have been better. Two packed houses. And when you do a special, you have to, after it's over, at the end, you have to say, sit in your seat. We're going to run through some stuff. We're going to, Ashley's going to come out on stage again. And you've got to do the same like energy and people go even harder because they like know that it's for that. I felt so loved. I literally have these moments where I'm like, how am I worthy of this? Like, I love you guys so much. I love the community that we built. The messages I got after this were unlike anything I've ever experienced. Girls telling me about stuff that was going down in the bathrooms and like the community that we've built, that my material inspired them and empowered them.

• 9:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  And everybody was laughing and they brought their partners or their girlfriends or their moms. And I just, it's overwhelming in the best way. And I had an amazing glam team. Andrew, our agent came and, and the shows were great. Like, I really am so proud of them. I don't know which one was better. And they afterwards, after my, the first one, I obviously did two and you know, you kind of should pick the better of the two. And you can splice in stuff from the other one. That's typically how it works. I was like, I don't even know which one was better. And after the first one, they were like, we really don't see many first takes that good. Like people kind of come out a little hot, they're, they're nervous and then they settle in.

• 10:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  They were like, you came out and just commanded the stage. I'm like, I've done this so many times, which most comedians do. But I felt so relaxed from the start. Obviously I was nervous all day. I was crashing out. Don't get it twisted, but I-

• 10:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Felt just in the zone from the beginning.

• 10:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're just nodding, sorry. I'll be done with my monologue in a minute. I know you want to jump in, but.

• 10:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm have your have the floor.

• 10:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, every everything was was perfect. I mean, literally by the end of the second one, I was like, I've never felt so exhausted in the best way. I mean, my feet hurt, like my body hurts. I probably have not eaten enough because I've been like nervous all day and nothing's ever felt like that. I've never had any experiencing like that. I mean, it feels like when you rap anything, a movie or a show or, you know, we've done so many shows and they always feel like such a high when we're done, but it's years of creating this material, six months of touring it, a crew of dozens of people making your dream come true and you're surrounded by all of your friends and family and these incredible audiences from this community that we've built. I've never felt that in my life and it was something I'll never forget.

• 11:32Rayna Greenberg?

  It just, it was sensational. It was unbelievable. And I've said this before, like all of our success for so many years has been so tied to each other and we've shared all of our successes together. The growth of this podcast and launching a sexual wellness business and these sold out tours for seven years and like this was all on your own, all by yourselves. Like that's not to be like, look at by yourself, but to to just do this completely solo and to do all these shows, a sold out tour in a year that no comedians can sell, like constantly we're being told like, nobody can sell tickets, nobody can move tickets to have this sold out tour that culminates in this production, the scale of which I did not even understand was, I mean, there were seven cameras, there were dozens of camera people, there was

• 12:17Rayna Greenberg?

  a huge set backstage and you looked phenomenal and so many of our friends flew in for this and it just was like an unbelievable night and I spent the whole night with our agent. I watched your first show from the balcony in the audience with everybody and I watched the second show with Andrew backstage and the crew was just doubled over out loud laughing and I you were just, it was flawless. You looked amazing. The set design was gorgeous. Like, I can't wait for people to see this. The audience could not have been bad. I couldn't believe like just the boom of the audience.

• 12:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  So perfect. How do you get two perfect audiences? And I wonder sometimes, I've been to special tapings that feel a little awkward for various reasons.

• 13:00Rayna Greenberg?

  All the time.

• 13:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  My production company, the lighting was perfect, but you still are like, I don't know, you always wonder if the audience is gonna be able to get in the zone because they know they're there for this taping and you have to kind of do these pickups and you know.

• 13:11Rayna Greenberg?

  There's seven people on cranes with cameras and stuff.

• 13:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, the cameras are all over the place, but you know, you're prepped when you walk in and it just doesn't feel as natural as like going to a comedy club, maybe.

• 13:20Rayna Greenberg?

  You're hyper aware.

• 13:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so, but it didn't matter. They were locked in.

• 13:25Rayna Greenberg?

  They were so good. And so you asked me to open both of the shows and say that Oscar performed like a whole set, but you asked me to introduce you.

• 13:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, Raina's gonna be a part of it. Don't worry, you guys. Oh, I can't wait for you guys to see it. Oh my God, we're not like, you just, you're gonna die when you guys see this, when it's all said and done, but yes, Raina will be a part of it.

• 13:41Rayna Greenberg?

  There was like, I was very emotional like the first time I got on stage to introduce you because it was the day after we met eight years prior and I'm like, introducing you for your special and like, I just was so proud and I got on stage, I like could barely breathe. Like it was so much emotion. I was crying and I like, you wanted me to like drop this line that I had to say for the special. I started crying saying it. I was just really overwhelmed. So we get off stage, I watched a little special with Andrew up, up in the balcony. He's like, she's so good. She doesn't need another take. This is perfect. I wouldn't, I wouldn't even have her do a second whatever. So we go back downstairs and we're like, what's your feedback from like the special? He's like, I only have feedback for Raina.

• 14:24Rayna Greenberg?

  And he was like, oh, you really brought the mood down. He was like, please don't cry. The next time you do this, just like, just keep it in the, keep it in the box and you really, no crying. Please don't cry. It's really brought the vibe.

• 14:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  When you started choking up, I was like, is this bitch for real right now? Like, you don't think I want to cry? You don't think you're gonna trigger me? You think you need to go out there and cry right before I step on stage?

• 14:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I was like, I'm gonna make her cry.

• 14:52Rayna Greenberg?

  So what I did was drink a bottle of wine in between the first and the second one.

• 14:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  So there's a line that Raina really needed to nail. Really, it really needs to be perfect because it may or may not open the whole fucking thing. And I was listening for her to, for it to be perfect, because you can pick it up and later if you need to. And she did nail it after she stopped crying the first show. She did not nail the second show. It was like slurry voice. She added a few little extra words in there. And I was like, fuck it. I think we got it on the first one. And if we have to figure it out, will we do it at the wedding, maybe? No, but it was just like, after the, the second one, you came out, I could hear that wine in your voice. I was like, there's no hope.

• 15:29Rayna Greenberg?

  I got off stage and somebody, there's people sent me videos. I'm just like, I'll be honest, I'm drunk.

• 15:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my God.

• 15:38Rayna Greenberg?

  That was, that was really fun. And then I was great the second time. I just, I didn't cry or anything. And I go backstage to watch with Andrew and we're like watching and the crew, I, I, I went into the green room for a second. I go back out to the camera and I see they're freaking out. There's like eight people looking at the camera and they're like, oh my God, oh my God, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do to her hair? I'm looking, I'm like, her hair looks fucking fine. And they're like, no, no, wait till she turns. And you wouldn't turn. And like, this went on for like a few minutes. And I'm like, guys, leave her alone. She's fine. There's nothing wrong with her hair. And they're like, no, there is. And you turn and there was just this one strand that just jetted out really far and like looped around and went back into your hair. I mean, it was so, and they're like, who's gonna tell her? What are, they're all scrambling. I'm like, I'll do it.

• 16:23Rayna Greenberg?

  And I was like, so I opened the curtain, you're in the middle of a joke.

• 16:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can I tag in from my perspective? I don't want to cut you off, but I do think you need to hear how this felt for me.

• 16:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Raina, she did an okay time. She, I wasn't mid-sentence, but I was mid-joke. Opener, opener joke.

• 16:40Rayna Greenberg?

  They were freaking out.

• 16:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I get it, because this might be, they might want to use this one. And there's a hair out of place. And so there's a teeny tiny break. I am in the middle of a joke, though, and about to kind of segue into the second part of it. And I hear, Ashley, Ashley.

• 16:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Ashley, and I'm like, this can't, am I here? That can't be Raina's voice on the stage with me.

• 17:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Raina's whispering from the side of the stage? Raina's here, she's out here on the stage. I turned to my left, you were there. I was like, what is actually happening? That's never in my life have I experienced something like this. You were like, your hair is messed up. And I was like, this can't be real. Raina comes out, she smooths my hair.

• 17:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I do have to say, I actually thought about clipping this, so I'm not gonna.

• 17:26Rayna Greenberg?

  No, they were, they loved it.

• 17:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  I had a great joke, I turned it around and then I got back into it and finished the original joke, but what a thing to happen.

• 17:34Rayna Greenberg?

  The crew was like, that was the best moment, we can't wait to clip this.

• 17:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, good. That really makes such, the crew that I worked with, like, they do so much incredible comedy. And so for you to say that they were like enjoying it and laughing and stuff means the world, but this is the thing, I remember going to Nikki's taping when she taped Bangin'. She has a special called Bangin'. It was in LA, I remember the set, it said Nikki really big behind it, and I remember her being on stage and they, there was like a natural break between jokes and the voice of God came on, like someone from the mic from up top and said like, Nikki, you need to fix your hair, we're gonna come out and fix your hair, powder your nose or whatever. But like for your best friend to be on the stage whispering.

• 18:20Rayna Greenberg?

  I was waiting for a natural break, but they were like freaking out. It was bad, it was like a big loop in the hair.

• 18:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so that was such a fun moment. And just again, thank you to everyone that came for all the support, for all the messages. And then the next morning I woke up, we took a car to Boston with our flowers and I closed the tour in Boston at the Wilbur, and that's the theater where I met my fiance in 2021. There's a whole long story, obviously we didn't start dating until 2023, but all of it's happened in Boston with him and the show was just absolutely incredible. I couldn't believe I had to do another show. I was like, you know, you should end it on your special, but to end it there meant even more. It was this full circle moment with him and he came out on stage at the end. And I love our Boston audience so much. Love. I mean, the Wilbur was packed and we had some of his friends and some people in

• 19:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  the green room and stuff. And then afterwards, we walk into the W and I'm going to talk about the W in a minute. The W is right across the street. We've never not stayed there. Every single time. It's literally five feet away. They have a, you know, deal with the theater. We always, always stay there when we perform at the Wilbur or before formed at the box center next door, the Wang. And I walk in right now, everyone from the show was at the fucking bar on a Sunday night at the W. Of course. It was screaming, screaming, like everyone was up from there. Woo, Ashley, Ashley. I was, I was dying. And then the few people at the bar who weren't at the show were like, who the fuck is that? I did a whole round, took pictures, everyone ripped a shot. Like, I was like, I love you so, I love you guys so much. I just, I love our audience. I love

• 19:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  the people that support us so, so much. We have the best audience in the world. We are so lucky. Every time I meet anyone, I'm just like, they're so cool. They're so funny. They're so pretty. It never gets old and it'll never not feel like an honor and I'll never not be grateful. But that was like such a moment. And like my fiance was there with his friends. They went and sat down and they were like, this is just crazy. But the W, I said this before, the first night he and I ever got together, we stayed the night in the W after the show in 2023 at the Wang. And we stayed in room 1112. And we loved that it had an angel number in it. And then we were getting married on 11125. And I knew we were going to stay back in the W. And then so I emailed them. So they booked my room for me. And I was like, I'd love to request this hotel room. And they wrote back and were like, it's been

• 20:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  requested already. And I'm like, what? From a fan? Like, is someone trying to have a fan experience?

• 20:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 20:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I was like, I, I didn't even know what to say. That's, why is that a thing? It's not part of like a wedding block. Like, they were just like, it's, it's kind of been requested.

• 20:56Rayna Greenberg?

  It's lore. It's like Taylor Swift. It's just, you know, it's all these little, little things.

• 21:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, let me know if someone stayed in that fucking room. Like, did you not think I would want it? Anyway, so then I wrote back and told the marketing director the whole story. Before I just requested, I was like, it's important to me, whatever. Then I was like, I just want to share with you why I requested the room. Told her the whole story and there's some additional information, whatever. And she was like, oh my God, that's incredible. We're going to see what we can do. And let us know what time you're arriving and stuff like that. So we check into the hotel, this guy at the front desk, Lloyd, sexy. He checks us in, he hands me a room key and it says 1102. And I was like, um, we had requested 1112. I just want, he goes, you'll see. You'll see. And he hands it to us. And in parentheses on the little paper thing where the key comes in, it said 1112. We go up, we are, we go to the end of the hall. I'm like, we're going to be in a suite.

• 21:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Obviously, we've stayed in those suites before. We go to the 1102, on the door, they had made this like plaque that said 1112. In blue, I was like, this is the cutest thing. We walk in, it's this huge suite. They had done like charcuterie and wine. They'd printed a picture out of us. And then wrote this sweet card that was so thoughtful. And it said, we made this, the door placard for you and we painted it blue for Azul and you can keep it. And it was just the best experience. And so I love the W Boston again. That's exclusively where we've stayed and it just meant a lot. So anyway, just want to share that. And let me know who the fuck stayed in that room.

• 22:23Rayna Greenberg?

  It was a nice end of the weekend. I was like, I cannot believe she has to go do this. I was in bed till 1 o'clock that day.

• 22:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was so jealous of you.

• 22:30Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, I, this was one of the best nights of my life. I just got to like, look pretty and get all this attention. Thank you. And just like be with all of our friends and hang out. Like, it's such a nice night with Andrew Bum, just, and also your fiance. We all hung out on it. Like, it was just.

• 22:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Jacqueline, my wedding planner, came.

• 22:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Love her so much. I had the best night and then I just got to like, sleep all day the next day and have to pack up. It was the best.

• 22:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  It was a great weekend and you planned this really special dinner Friday night before. And 10 of us went and we just had the best time.

• 23:01Rayna Greenberg?

  I loved it. We went to Quality Meats, which is so, I mean, if you want a steakhouse in New York City, that's the one. And I used, we might, am I going to say it?

• 23:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so we're in the group chat. We're at, Raina put 10 random people on a group chat, which I love to see it.

• 23:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, most of them know each other, but your cousin Lindsay's on it.

• 23:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so.

• 23:20Rayna Greenberg?

  And I texted Lindsay and I was like, I think you'll like this. And she's like, I love being a part of this.

• 23:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So Raina puts us on the group chat. She's like, we're gonna go to Quality Meats at 8:00 PM, whatever. And then she's like, and I'll show you guys everywhere around this restaurant I fucked.

• 23:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Cause I used to manage at that restaurant.

• 23:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Well, you've talked a lot about fucking in the restaurant. And I was like, I can't wait for the HR violation tour. And so we're going back and forth and, I mean, we walk in and.

• 23:44Rayna Greenberg?

  The person that I used to sleep with there 15 years ago was still working there. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it.

• 23:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Just at the bar.

• 23:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Just right there.

• 23:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  I could, yeah. I just watched your like face. I was like, you gotta be kidding me.

• 24:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I didn't know, like, do I go say hello?

• 24:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Did you ever like, did you lock eyes or anything?

• 24:09Rayna Greenberg?

  I, we looked directly at each other, but I was like, maybe he didn't see me or recognize me. But so the way that like OpenTable or Resy or any of these platforms work is you have a profile, a customer profile at every restaurant. It probably says like, Rayna Greenberg used to be a manager here, got fired from here. Like, a hundred percent. The better the restaurant, the more notes they have about their clients. And restaurants have a pre-shift meeting and they talk about like the VIPs and like the special guests that are coming in.

• 24:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, right. Yeah, I've watched the bear.

• 24:35Rayna Greenberg?

  They knew that we were coming because they started, they sent a ton of free stuff over the table. They sent tons of appetizers and sides and wine and.

• 24:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're right. Yes.

• 24:43Rayna Greenberg?

  They knew exactly where I was.

• 24:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just don't think it was like Raina got fired from here. I mean, they still treat you really nicely. You still know some people that work there.

• 24:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 24:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're like a real celeb.

• 24:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I, I got fired for like having a drink on the job, which was so ridiculous because everybody drank on the job.

• 24:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're so, yeah, you're right. I wasn't thinking that you would come up during the pre-shift meeting and that bartender's like, what the fuck?

• 25:02Rayna Greenberg?

  And it said like 8:00 PM, Rayna Greenberg. He knew exact, I mean, and I was just like, I don't, I'm like frozen. I do not know what to, I, it was, I also would like, there was no reason to walk over to the bar. It would have been like, hey.

• 25:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Rayna Greenberg?

  We slept together 15 years?

• 25:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 25:20Rayna Greenberg?

  He was so hot.

• 25:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know what it reminds me of? I have two things.

• 25:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  In terms of people staying at the same job for so long, when Carrie Bradshaw, you know, of Sex and the City, Carrie had said she had an abortion with this server at this restaurant. She went to the restaurant. He still worked there, however, 10 years, 15 years later. And I was telling you that when I, I used to hook up with this guy that worked at a grocery store in Dover, Delaware, and I would hook up with him, usually like winter breaks from college. So never after I graduated, but when I would come from college, I would go out with my friends around Dover, and I would hook up with this guy. And he was like, so funny. And I just, I never saw him as a long-term partner. And I don't know, he was just a fun hang. We would go out, we would like dance, like he had a kid, whatever. It was fun. But he worked at the grocery store. He worked in produce.

• 26:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  And sometimes I would get drunk if he was on the night shift. I'd like go there after the club. It was a mess. So, the club, it was called Bubba's. It was in Dover. So, anyway.

• 26:15Rayna Greenberg?

  You went to the grocery store after the club?

• 26:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I did one time. I like found him in the stair aisle. I was all drunk.

• 26:20Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, I'd go to West Side Market all the time when I'm drunk, so I get it.

• 26:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, eight to 10 years later, I was with my friend Brooke, who would spend Christmases with us. She was the first Jewish person we took in for Christmas. And then it was Louisa, and then it was you. And my mom sent us to get stuff for Christmas dinner. We go to the grocery store. And I'm telling her, I used to hook up with this guy that worked in produce. And she's like, shut up. And I'm telling her all this stuff. We're checking out. And she was like, I wonder if he still works here. And we looked up, and on the wall, there he is. Employee of the month.

• 26:54Rayna Greenberg?

  What are the odds? Listen, that's a New York City steakhouse. You get a job bartending at a New York City steakhouse. You fucking hang on to that job. You make a fortune. But you don't expect it at the grocery store.

• 27:07Rayna Greenberg?

  A New York City steakhouse, if you get a bartending job, you never leave.

• 27:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, and such, so easy money.

• 27:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it's just you print money. But like.

• 27:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Also, employee of the month, that makes me think that he's not even a manager now. Right? Would you have an employee of the month? No, the manager's not getting that.

• 27:22Rayna Greenberg?

  That's unfair, because technically, the manager's nominating the employee of the month.

• 27:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  So 10 years later, he's just still working produce?

• 27:26Rayna Greenberg?

  He's comfy.

• 27:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Good for him.

• 27:28Rayna Greenberg?

  He was comfy.

• 27:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, let's just take a quick break.

• 27:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, this podcast is sponsored and brought to you by Squarespace. I'm so excited to talk about Squarespace because this is the website platform Ashley and I have used for the Girls Got to Eat platform for many years. And we bought the domain through there and yours. I used it for One Hungry Jew when I was selling merch. And Squarespace is an all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and exceed online. So whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, they make it easy to make a beautiful website, engage with your audience, sell anything from products to content to time, all in one place. I mean, I've just been using this for so many years and like our website specifically has so many different pieces of information. It has our entire episode catalog, so it allows me to like easily, we upload that every week. It has our product line.

• 28:16Rayna Greenberg?

  It has our live shows. People can shop tickets. It has so many bells and whistles. It's so easy to use.

• 28:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  But even if you don't have all those bells and whistles, I mean, you guys can go to mine too, ashhas.com. I mean, that's way more simple, but I had this vision of like, I do want everything in like one kind of scrollable homepage, but you can still bounce around, see like tour dates, bio, like it's unbelievable and it's so easy. I mean, clearly I don't know coding and this and that. And then Anna, who works for us, jumped in and she helps me with my website too. And it's just so easy to like pick up and she's, she's wonderful too. And she's figured out some different hacks and has made, honestly made anything I've wanted to happen, happen because it's just so doable within Squarespace. I can't imagine any other platform.

• 28:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Absolutely. And they, so they have like cutting edge AI technology, but in terms of design, I mean, there's templates, you, it couldn't look more beautiful and be easier to create a really professional, easy to use website, no matter what type of plugins you want to use. They have Squarespace Payments, so it's the easiest way to manage your payments in one place. You can connect all your social accounts. So everything that we do on TikTok or Instagram, any other platform is connected there. It's really easy. You can sell content. There's tons of SEO tools also. So I mean, SEO is so important if you want to get discovered quickly. It is just the one stop shop and I think that websites are really intimidating, especially because people are like, how am I going to design this? This is really like complicated. It's not. Squarespace makes it so, so simple.

• 29:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, so easy.

• 29:40Rayna Greenberg?

  So you guys can check out Squarespace.com/GGE for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use GGE to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

• 29:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, and I am telling you guys about Smart Mouth. This is the only mouthwash scientifically proven to give you 24 hours of fresh breath with just two rinses a day. Man, my breath was really on my mind as you are around 50 people in your face. You're just like, please, God, let me not be hot-breathing on these people. And literally, I'm a coffee drinker, I'm drinking it right now, had the most garlicky shrimp scampi last night for dinner.

• 30:14Rayna Greenberg?

  You do, you drink coffee before shows?

• 30:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. Garlic hummus? Garlic hummus, totally. So it's really important to me. And the secret is their dual-solution smart zinc technology. As you pour, the two solutions activate billions of zinc ions that instantly eliminate bad breath and keep it away all day. We love this little fun fact that it was developed by the dentist who literally wrote the encyclopedia section on bad breath. And it's super easy to use. There's a snap-top bottle, so effortless convenience with the same 24-hour fresh breath. So I have talked about this, that I wasn't really a mouthwash girly before I discovered Smart Mouth. And I have been, I really have been loving it. And the toothpaste, too. I'm really picky about toothpaste. I've used the same brand of toothpaste my entire life because that's a little more under the radar because I just don't like the standard ones you get in the grocery store.

• 31:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm not going to name any names, but they just give me like a weird aftertaste. My mouth doesn't feel that clean. So I was skeptical to try anything new. And I can tell you that Smart Mouth, I totally switched to it. I'm really, really liking it in terms of the toothpaste. And of course, the original activated mouthwash. They have so many different products you guys can check out. And we really just stand by it. So you can never have bad breath again. Find Smart Mouth at Walgreens, Walmart, and Amazon, or visit smartmouth.com/gge to snag a special discount on your next Smart Mouth purchase. That's www.s m a r t m o u t h dot com slash g g e. Don't miss out on 24-hour fresh breath. Your mouth will thank you.

• 31:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, and Function. I choose Function because it's the only health platform that gives me data most people never get, and the insights to start doing something about it. So inside Function, you get access to test over 100-plus biomarkers. And that's going to be hormones, to toxins, to markers of heart health, inflammation, stress. And for an additional fee, You can also access MRI and chest CT scans, all tracked in one secure place over time. And it's a near 360 degree view to better see what's happening in your body. And that's why top health leaders are all behind Function Health. This is really the best way to just source all of these tests in one place. And it's so easy to use and then the platform gives you so many different recommendations for how to move forward. Once you have the results and check the results.

• 32:24Rayna Greenberg?

  So specifically, let's talk about autoimmunity. So your immune system is supposed to protect you, but sometimes it does misfire. And with autoimmune disorders, the body starts attacking its tissue and creating inflammation and causing symptoms such as pain and fatigue. Often long before a diagnosis is made. And I think all the time, like, is there a, is this a problem or is this just like being alive? And so this can help you look through all these different examples of relevant biomarkers and test and track early indicators of autoimmune disorder and tons of other issues that might be occurring. Routine checkups really include these markers, so autoimmune issues specifically are often missed until symptoms become severe. So for lots of reasons, this is why I use Function. And you guys can learn more by using our link, Function is a near 360 degree view to see what's happening in your body.

• 33:09Rayna Greenberg?

  And our first 1,000 listeners get a $100 credit towards their membership. Visit functionhealth.com/GGE or use gift code GGE100 at signup to own your health.

• 33:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, well, let's get into it with our guest.

• 33:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, guys, we are very excited to welcome our guest today. She is a bestselling author and speaker, best known for her books, Choose Wonder Over Worry and The Answers Are Within You. She's also the creator of the Feelings Journal, a tool that transforms the way you engage with your emotions. Her writing and illustrations reach nine million people per month. And her work has been featured in such publications as The New York Times, New York Magazine, Today, Self, Fortune, Forbes, Entrepreneur. Her new book is out now, Loveable: One Woman's Path from Good to Free. Please welcome to the show, Amber Ray.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  Hello.

• 33:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi.

• 33:55Rayna Greenberg?

  You've been making the rounds from all of our, all of our fans, Caitlin Bristow, and Almost 30, and Vienna Farin, and now you're here.

• 34:02Speaker 00

  I'm here.

• 34:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Coming to us from the Hamptons.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're so jealous.

• 34:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, we wish we were with you in the Hamptons.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know.

• 34:09Rayna Greenberg?

  And as we record with you, you're doing a book launch party tonight. The book comes out as we record.

• 34:15Speaker 00

  Came out last week.

• 34:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Last week.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  Party starts, the party starts in 90 minutes.

• 34:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God. Okay, we'll get you out of here.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  We're good though.

• 34:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, okay, well, congrats also.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 34:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Does it just feel like birthing?

• 34:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, it feels.

• 34:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Tharic, all the things. Tell us.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  It feels to finally have people reading the book and responding to the book and like to hear the resonance and to hear so many women being like, wow, this is my story too. Or you've put to feelings what I've been experiencing, but didn't necessarily have the words for. That's like, you know, when you particularly memoir, this is my first memoir, but when you write memoir, you're like in a room bleeding on the page, you know? It's kind of this healing process for you and you hope your story will resonate, but you don't really know. And so to like have it out in the world and to be hearing how people are, are reading it. That's the best part.

• 35:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. Well, we wanna, we're gonna probably end with responses to the book and how it's been feeling, but I guess give us the boilerplate. What inspired you to write this book? Your story is really, really fascinating.

• 35:14Speaker 00

  So four years ago, while married, I looked into the eyes of a stranger and I had this knowing feeling of he's your person. And it was this crazy moment because of course I was married, I was living, I had left New York in the pandemic and I was in Totos Santos, Mexico, building a land project with my then husband, who is now my business partner. And we were in the throes of that and I was desperately trying to convince myself that the relationship was right. We were nine years in, we were best friends. We were never really romantic partners, had a sexless relationship, but we were good friends and we got along and there were things that worked. And I think I was just like, this could be enough. Maybe we can figure it out. Maybe another workshop if we do, so read this book together, then we'll like find the intimacy and closeness that

• 35:59Speaker 00

  I'm desperately craving. And I think unconsciously, I was also like, maybe if I make up my business partner because he loves to work, then I'll like get, you know, we'll, we'll find that thing. But when I looked into the eyes of this other person, it was this wake up call of A, this is what connection feels like and B, you've been lying to yourself or trying to convince yourself of something and that's not what this relationship actually is.

• 36:22Rayna Greenberg?

  You open the book with this really powerful story of standing on the altar on your wedding day and everyone's looking at me thinking they're so happy and you put, you know, your self-talk, which is like, I, I don't think, I don't think this is gonna last.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I walked down the aisle thinking, I'm not sure how long this is gonna last, but maybe we'll throw a great party.

• 36:43Rayna Greenberg?

  And you do. Before that, or you felt that way before that?

• 36:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, I pretty early on, he was three hours late to our first date and

• 36:53Rayna Greenberg?

  What?

• 36:54Speaker 00

  I remember being, yeah, and his phone died and blah, blah, blah, and like, but I remember being like, I don't know if I can trust this guy. But he said all the right things and like, I'm so sorry you feel that way. I take full responsibility. Like he like really owned his part. And then so I was like, okay, this guy can like own up to things like maybe, maybe it's okay. But you know, I think I had that inner voice within me saying repeatedly, like, I don't know if this is right. And you know, the, the chemistry, the like sexual chemistry piece there never really felt quite right. But I like, I thought, and I was 26 years old then. I was like, oh, well, like, we'll figure that out. Like, maybe it'll get better in time. Cause I like, and he's a good guy and we get along and like, I like his friends. You know, there were things that I could look to and point to and be like, that's great.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  But you know, there was a voice within me that was like, are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure? But I kept pushing it down, pushing it down and pushing it down. Cause I mean, the truth is I like, in some ways wanted it to work.

• 37:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Did you have friends in your life that you were able to ask at the time, like, well, everybody probably feels like this all the time. Well, I, I have doubts, but so does everybody. We don't really have sex, but sex dwindles for people. Did you have community around you that you felt comfortable even saying those thoughts out loud to?

• 38:06Speaker 00

  I don't think I was fully honest and that wasn't because I was being dishonest with my friends. It was because I was scared to be honest with myself.

• 38:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  And if I was honest with myself, then I would have to be like, what are you doing? You know? But I like, you know, I definitely had friends that I could be like, you know, we're not really having sex that often. And, and I think, you know, for a few of my friends, they had been in long-term married relationships, had kids and they're like, well, we're not really having sex that often either.

• 38:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 38:29Speaker 00

  So like, you know, I don't think, not to jump ahead, but like when I was leaving and going to friends, being like, okay, here's what I've realized. This is not right for me. You know, there were friends who were like, thank God, you know? Like we could sense this and feel this. And now that you're voicing it, it makes so much sense. So, you know, I felt like I had a really good of support in the leaving, but I think it wasn't until I like, was super honest with myself that I was able, even able to be really honest with my friends.

• 38:56Rayna Greenberg?

  It's really hard, especially in your twenties, to put words to that to when you find good on paper guy. And I found that too. I was engaged to him and I found this guy who treated me good enough. We also didn't really have much of a sex life, but like, we got along. He was a good teammate. It was fine. He was a nice person. He didn't hurt me emotionally or physically ever. I mean, it was just a good enough relationship. And I was very afraid to ask myself the question, which you say in the book, which is like, how do you phrase it? Like, what's the thing you're like, too afraid to admit to yourself? And that thing for me was like, I'm just not that happy with this, with good on paper guy.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  I love good on paper guy.

• 39:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, the good guys are hard to find. I mean, it's just, and we hear from a lot of our listeners, and we even see this with friends, that I say the quote, like, when you hear a woman say, "He makes me happy," and you almost read between the lines of, "He doesn't make me unhappy." Because there's a lot of women out there that their partner is the thing making them unhappy in life. And you just see so much bad behavior and people being treated poorly that you're like, "Oh, it's rough out there." Like, this guy, this is a good guy. But I have a question for you. Did you feel like you had models of healthy, loving relationships with sex and stability in your, your life? Or did you feel like you didn't really even know what that looked like or would feel like?

• 40:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just, real quick, because I love the good on paper guy, because I have so many people reaching out to me being like, "The good on paper guy is almost harder to leave." Because it's like, nothing's wrong.

• 40:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  It is harder to leave. Yeah, there's not a big thing.

• 40:29Speaker 00

  Shouldn't I be more grateful? Something wrong with me that like, this isn't enough? And like, do I need to fix some part of myself? And that was kind of like where I was at. I was like, do I like women? Is that what, you know, is that what, like, good on paper guy isn't good enough? You know, I like, I was like, it must be something that's wrong with me. Yeah, it's, it can be harder to leave.

• 40:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I would ask myself that question, too. Am I so rotten? What's so wrong with me that I can't enjoy this? That I can't be grateful for what I have, which is a man who is kind, doesn't cheat on me, that doesn't diminish me? Why can't I enjoy this more and just be grateful that I have something that other people don't? And it took a long time. I wouldn't have left him. He left me.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Okay. Yeah. Interesting. So he wasn't that good on paper?

• 41:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  Another story.

• 41:16Rayna Greenberg?

  He was good until he wasn't.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  But to answer your question, no, I did not have healthy models of love. You know, I was raised by a single mom. She had an, she was 21. My dad left and had an affair with some mistress and then he got in a car accident, which led him to have a traumatic brain injury. I didn't meet him that I remember until I was nine. My mom remarried. He was not a healthy influence. That was chaotic and disastrous. And so it's, you know, it was like, not only did I not see healthy, secure, safe love, the love that I longed for with this father, who I'm, you know, I met when I was, when I was eight years old, I met him and he had this traumatic brain injury. And so I was so desperately wanted him to be like, hi, daughter. Like, I see you. I let, you know, to be able to connect with

• 42:02Speaker 00

  him, which he was just not capable of. And so I believe that like this desire that I had felt for this, this person who, you know, my mom told me wonderful things about this desire I felt for so long. Desire is not dangerous because I don't want to feel that longing feeling again. I don't want to feel like I want someone so intensely and they're not able to meet me. That seems very scary. So I was like, anytime I feel desire for someone, mm, it's too risky. I, you know, they might leave, they might not be able to meet me. So I'm just going to make safe choices, safe choices in love.

• 42:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  So that makes, I mean, I've actually really heard someone express that in such a way. And so that the lack of desire with your first husband was secure and safe.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  For you.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  And it's like, I didn't consciously wasn't aware of that, of course, but it was like, I'm going to pick this guy who like, probably won't leave me. Or even if he did leave me, it might, it'll hurt, but maybe not hurt as much as if I like, was like, uh, you know, so in love with this person.

• 43:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hmm.

• 43:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I want to talk a little bit about how your mom described your dad, though, and the models of love that you had as a kid. Cause you opened this chapter. I want to say, I think your mom probably did the best she could. All moms are doing the best they could. But you opened this chapter saying, when my mom was pregnant with me, he fucked one of her best friends.

• 43:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:20Rayna Greenberg?

  And the way that your mom would go on to speak about him wasn't as though he, like, when you hear that, it makes your whole body seize up. But I want to talk about how your mom spoke about your father as though he was like the love of her life.

• 43:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, early on, when I was young and those early years, I think what she wanted me to think of him, he was like the smartest person she ever met and so amazing, this musician, he played seven intruders and he had the most beautiful voice and like, oh my gosh, I'm smart. Like, you know, it was all positive, which for little me only created more longing because I was like, who's this amazing person that

• 43:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  doesn't want me or that left us? Like, why did he leave us? And so, you know, I think that's where some of that like early abandonment anxiety started. But then later in life, as I got older, you know, and I started to hear more about the truth and I started to ask more questions, you know, I learned that he like fucked your best friend and I learned that like, oh, he was also an addict and I learned that he got behind the wheel under the influence and his best friend, who was getting married the next day, died in the car crash. You know, I like learned more details and I was like, okay, this is actually like, I think it was actually helpful to understand that he wasn't this like perfect man who just, you know, decided we weren't good enough for him.

• 44:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I'm sure it really formed the way you looked at romantic attachment and attachment in general to a parent, this, this amazing person didn't want to, didn't want to raise me.

• 44:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  And that's a whole different discussion, but I'm also very fascinated by in the way that a parent might talk about the absent parent because you want, why would you not want your little girl to think her dad is a superhero and he's the, you know, the, the white knight? And then it's like, or do you go the complete opposite and just like, this man's terrible? You trust me, you're better off. And I guess obviously the truth can fall somewhere in the middle, but it's, it's interesting that that's the story you were told.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  Totally. And I'm grateful she wasn't like dad bashing.

• 45:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. You almost overcorrect. It's the overreaction of like the bashing is the like, he's perfect.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I think it was also painful for her to look at, which is what she said later. Like when I, you know, as I've started telling my story and putting it out there, it's uncomfortable for her because she's like, ooh, I didn't want to look at this. I didn't want to look at like, you know, what comes up for me around this.

• 45:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. And I'm, there is no right answer. Thinking about, you know, do you tell your kid the truth, which is really painful? Or do you build this person up that left? I mean, there's just no right answer.

• 45:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  And we all romanticized too, in general, whoever it is, past partners, family members, like I think we have a tendency to do that. So.

• 45:46Speaker 00

  Totally, I though I do think like little me could have handled, listen, he was extraordinary in these ways. And I really loved this about him. And also, there were some aspects of him like where he needed to grow up. And like, he was a kid, like, I feel like she could have given me like, both. And I maybe, you know, I don't know what age I would have been in, but I think I would have been able to handle and hold that. And I wouldn't have then romanticized him so much, and longed for him so much. And also, like, personalized his leaving.

• 46:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, well, I'm sorry. And it sounds like she, you know, she did her best. And yeah, fast forward, you're with Good on Paper Guy. And you're like, I don't know, is this like how everybody feels? And you talk about going to therapy and lying to the therapist. So, let's talk about knowing that you wanted to be in therapy, and then not as many people not being honest in therapy.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, it was just like, we were in this like denial, denial, and denial and avoidance was kind of our whole thing. Like, we never fought, and I thought that was a good thing. But it was actually, I think, an issue, because we were never bringing up the things that mattered to us. We were never confronting the issues that were alive in the relationship. And yeah, we like went to this therapist, and it's as if we were trying to convince the therapist so that we could convince ourselves the relationship was right. And so we would go there, and we're like, these amazing things are happening. And he is, this is happening with his business, and I'm getting another book deal. And she was just like, she'd be like, why are you here? You're my favorite couple. But if anything, like, you know, I feel like also the right therapist might be like, why are you really here? Like, you know, but we never, like, we never told her we weren't having sex. We,

• 47:24Speaker 00

  you know, there were, I remember, there were a few, like, okay, we're getting into some things. But, I mean, it was just, I think, another part of, you know, the story we tell ourselves. Because we'll always find the evidence for what we choose to believe. And so we were choosing to believe that this was right. And so we're going to go to therapy, and maybe this therapist will convince us that we should stay.

• 47:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm. Can I ask you, you know, you're in therapy, this is a safe space to admit some deficits in the relationship. Why did it feel so frightening to say, we're not sleeping with each other?

• 47:55Speaker 00

  I think if we admitted we were not sleeping with each other, it would mean the relationship was over and we needed to separate. And I don't think we were ready for that.

• 48:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 48:04Speaker 00

  Or just the idea of that felt too scary or too uncomfortable or like we're in this deep, we've, you know, our communities are now we're in business together. It was like we were too far in. How could we like blow it all up now?

• 48:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Did you feel unhappy day to day? Or was it just like you said, you have, you have a friendship, you still have a friendship. So was it just coexisting and kind of this unsettling feeling that something better is out there?

• 48:29Speaker 00

  I think part of my, how I responded to childhood trauma was I'm fine, I'm good, I'm happy, I can keep going. I'm not, you're a crazy behavior, you're the emotional immaturity, the violence, the chaos, like the things that I witnessed, it was kind of like, I'm good and I'm going to keep going. And so I think my, it was like, was I happy in the relationship? It was like, I'm happy because I make myself happy. You know, it's kind of my, I'm in charge of that. And so I was more focused on like, I can be good, I can be good wherever. I'm easy breezy. I'm going to go with the flow. I can like make this work. But like, if I like got really quiet and listened and was like, am I happy in what we have? It would have been a fuck no.

• 49:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 49:14Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. But I like, wasn't there because I was like so focused on my own self and how I can show up that I like was ignoring the relationship and how that felt.

• 49:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. You, you write this quote in the book, how I found myself in a sexless relationship where my needs for closeness and emotional depth are not met. Why have I let this be okay? Why do I keep holding on to hope that something will change? Why when something feels off or missing, do I not listen? And why am I afraid of disappointing others but so willing to disappoint myself? And it's like, it's really a powerful statement. And I mean, it's like, it's a lot to unpack, but why do you think you were so afraid of disappointing others at your own detriment?

• 49:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, that was the most terrifying thing to me. I think my like in terms of like the good girl, the I thought I needed to harmonize and keep the peace. And that was the way that like, okay, if I can make sure my mom's okay and my stepdad's not freaking out, and if I can maintain harmony in this family unit, then I'll be safe, then I'll be taken care of, then my needs as a child will be met. And so fast forward to adulthood and I'm like, I'm amazed, everyone okay? Ooh, their mood is shifting. Oh, why is everyone shifting? Did they have too many drinks? Like, you know, it's like, I was like constantly hyper vigilant around everyone's okayness. And if I can maintain harmony, then I can maintain okayness. And so I think that just like fully transferred into my love and romantic life where,

• 50:43Speaker 00

  yeah, it was just, I didn't even realize I was self abandoning, you know, when I was in it. I didn't even realize I was ignoring my needs. I didn't even think I was in touch with my needs. Like, and that was what was crazy is that on the other side of the nine year relationship, it was like, I woke up from this spell and I was like, what the hell? How did I let that be okay? How did I even get here? Because my work was to help people live their most authentic and true lives. So how am I this person who's doing this work in the world who creatively felt like, creatively, I feel like I can say these are my needs and here's what matters and here's what I want. Like, that was easy for me. My mom was a badass entrepreneur. Of course, she modeled like business powerhouse. But love, like, ooh, what are, what should you need in love? I didn't even know where to begin.

• 51:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Hmm. I think people pleasers are very used to setting themselves on fire to keep someone else warm. And

• 51:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:30Rayna Greenberg?

  as long as everyone around you feels good and comfy, it's sort of okay if you don't.

• 51:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. You have these great metaphors. Good on, good on paper guy.

• 51:40Rayna Greenberg?

  We've been doing this a long time.

• 51:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  So can we just talk about where it all changed and when you met this person?

• 51:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I, you know, here we were in the middle of raising money for this land project and two potential investors came over. They had a friend tag along and it was the moment that they walked toward us and I connected eyes with him that I had this kind of feeling of hello again and felt like I was home and.

• 52:05Speaker 00

  Just, you know, he said, hello, I'm John and I tilted my head and he tilted his head and I was like, hello, John. And I like led him in and we did the whole pitch of the land and the house and everything we were doing. But the entire time I just was like, could not understand what was pulsing through me. And my ex like went and talked to the two people about business and John and I were kind of like in this bubble for hours. They were supposed to be there for an hour and five hours later, I was just like, wow, okay, this feels like my person. But in the moment, I was like, that's crazy. Maybe in another life. And I even said to him, like, I'm gonna match you with your person. Because I was thinking like, okay, I can't have him in this lifetime. So like, I'm

• 52:47Speaker 00

  gonna find the woman because he's so great. I'm gonna find his person. And then they left and I turned to my husband and I said, I just met a soulmate.

• 52:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, you said that to your husband?

• 52:56Speaker 00

  I said that to my husband.

• 52:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, I thought he said that to you.

• 52:59Speaker 00

  No, no, no. No, I said, I just met a soulmate. And he said, I know, that was beautiful.

• 53:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like in terms of a romantic context?

• 53:08Speaker 00

  I wasn't, you know, soulmate, like, I don't necessarily believe we have one person who's our

• 53:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, no, I get it. I just didn't. Yeah. Did you? Did you feel like there? Because you just said you were gonna set him up with someone else because you didn't see a future?

• 53:19Speaker 00

  I mean, I imagined like, oh, that would be nice if I was single and not in this whole thing. Like, yes, I would totally run off with this guy. He's my person. But I was like, not in this lifetime. So when I told them I just met a soulmate, I was thinking, now I'm gonna blow up

• 53:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  my marriage. Got it. Okay, right. And you were in your house with your husband when you met him. And so when you said that, you meant like a soul connection?

• 53:40Speaker 00

  I felt like this incredible, like, this was the most extraordinary connection I've ever felt in my life. It's kind of how I was like, that I just said, I was like, I just met a soulmate. And he saw it. You know, it wasn't like I was trying to hide. And like, it was very clear the connection that we had, which didn't feel like, oh, this like romantic heat thing. It just felt like, wow, these two people really light up with each other. Like, wow, there's something here.

• 54:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, we're just gonna take a quick break. I'm gonna tell you about Saks. This episode is brought to you by Saks Fifth Avenue. So we love Saks so much and fall is here. Fall fashion, gotta be. I mean, fall and summer.

• 54:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Melanie was making fun of me because I was like, my favorite fashion is women's fashion in the fall. And she's like, that's everybody's favorite fashion.

• 54:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I guess that's true. I just, the colors, like browns and burgundies and, but I just love dressing for summer so easy. Slutty tank top.

• 54:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but it's like, it's no, it's no thought, you know? Like Saks is really like the opportunity to like elevate your wardrobe and like even like athleisure with them is great. Gifting from them is great. Like it's just, it's holiday season. You can gift stuff from them. There's so much to choose from.

• 54:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  And just every brand. I mean, I'm looking like we love ALC, those pants that people used to DM me about. They're like, tell me I don't like her pants. They were ALC, Alexis Batar, that jewelry. You got me those earrings. I'm looking at some Alexis Batar earrings for my wedding, actually, like the, my ceremony and reception. Just all saints to Alexander Wang, to Alison Olivia, which I'm just obsessed with, and to your Gucci and your Prada, everything you could ever imagine. So I'm on their site now and I'm looking at their holiday party collection. Oh my gosh. I mean, this is the stuff that just, I die over. I mean, you just see stuff. I've seen stuff I've never seen before.

• 55:27Rayna Greenberg?

  I want that maroon suit.

• 55:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Look at this. I mean, un, but look at that green dress. Could you die? We'll put the green dress up on the screen. I mean, I, I love that you can sort by category, like what are you looking for? I just find stuff I've never seen before.

• 55:40Rayna Greenberg?

  I know. And there's some websites, everybody shops on it. Everybody shows up on the same thing.

• 55:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So really you guys should check out Saks. We are such fans, but everything you could ever need. I mean, stuff for kids, stuff for all ages, all occasions, accessories, jewelry, shoes, everything you could ever want because shopping should be fun and easy. You guys can head to Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style every day.

• 56:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. And this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. So October 10th was World Mental Health Day and this year we just want to say thank you to therapists. And BetterHelp therapists have helped over 5 million people worldwide on their mental health journeys, millions of stories, millions of journeys. And behind every one of those is a therapist who showed up and helped somebody. And I mean, I think I where I would be honestly, without the therapists that have come on the show and the work that they've done and the books I've read. And even lately, I've just been like dabbling with so much therapy to deal with the choice. That I'm dealing with and it just it helps to reframe things in your mind and the stories that you're telling yourself and these people have really dedicated their lives to making other people's lives better. So we just want to spotlight them and all the therapists who work for BetterHelp. They have quality therapists who work according to a strict code of conduct.

• 56:51Rayna Greenberg?

  They're fully licensed in the US and they have a therapist match commitment. So they do an initial matching work for you. So you can focus on the type of therapy that you need, the goals that you have, and you can switch at any time if you need to. They have tons of client reviews with over 30,000 therapists. It is the world's largest online therapy platform serving over 5 million people globally. So if you're a therapist who listens to the show, whether or not you are on BetterHelp or not, just thank you for what you've done for everybody. And this World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating therapists from millions of people. Take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/gge. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash G G E.

• 57:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, and Rocket Money. You know what really can add up and some people forget that they sign up for is like fall sports subscriptions, stuff like that, like football. Like you might be like, I want to watch this one football game. So you sign up for something, you just forget.

• 57:45Rayna Greenberg?

  I have so much stuff I've signed up for.

• 57:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. And then they're charging you in the summer. You're like, I haven't watched a football game in months. So, you know, streaming subscriptions, fantasy football league buy-ins, team gear, all this stuff, really Rocket Money can help you find the subscriptions you're no longer using, but also budget for all these expenses and cancel those seasonal streaming subscriptions before you forget, because it really can add up. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills. You can grow your savings. We really love this. They show all your expenses in one place, including those subscriptions you forgot about, and they'll help you cancel it. Their dashboard is going to lay out your total financial picture. So again, it's more than just the subscriptions. It's going to have your bill due dates and your paydays in a way that's super easy to digest. I mean, the thing I love about Rocket Money,

• 58:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think that companies like this have gotten so good at making it easy for us. I mean, there's like some dashboards, I'm not going to name any names, that just like they break my brain.

• 58:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 58:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, what am I even looking at? How dare you?

• 58:43Rayna Greenberg?

  No one thought maybe this is hard to use.

• 58:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 58:45Rayna Greenberg?

  So yes, it is really, really.

• 58:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so they really are gonna help you reach your goals. If you have something you'd like to save for, they can help analyze your accounts to find the best time each month to put that extra money aside. They'll even try to negotiate lower bills for you. The app is great. It automatically scans your bills to find opportunities to save and then goes to work to get you better deals. They have saved users over $2.5 billion, including over $880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members save up to $740 a year when they use all the app's premium features. So just think about that, that 700, 800 bucks, what would you do with it if it was just in your pocket, thanks to Rocket Money? So cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com/gge today. That's rocketmoney.com/gge.

• 59:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Rocketmoney.com/gge.

• 59:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, we'll get back into it with Amber. So let's talk a little bit more about the story and how this builds because your husband was along for the ride, essentially. This guy becomes your business partner.

• 59:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I'm thinking, I can't have him as my life partner. I'll make him my creative partner. So he comes in and he's gonna build a project with us. He's an artist and he was gonna help me think through like the design, the architecture, and how to visually bring the experience to life, which is how him and I quickly realized, okay, maybe there are feelings here. And, you know, very early on, I was like, can I just name the fact that like I'm sensing a connection here? Like, is it just me? Because I didn't know if I was alone feeling this. Like, you know, I don't know if this guy is.

• 1:00:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Of course.

• 1:00:14Speaker 00

  Feeling what I'm feeling. And he was like, I'm so glad you brought this up because yes, I did feel this kind of like a recognition at first sight with you. And I was kind of like, why am I meeting my person who's clearly not available to me? But his whole thing was like, I just felt like you were showing me that like what unconditional love could be like. Like, I can love this person without possessing her. And it doesn't have to be romantic. You could just show me like what's possible for me in love. So that's how he was interpreting it at first. And then like, once that was named, it was kind of like, okay, that's interesting. And then, you know, I think my ex's participation in it of like, wow, now that John's hanging out with you and kind of meeting your emotional needs, now I get to work more. Like, this is really working for me. And I was like, that's interesting information.

• 1:00:59Speaker 00

  So it was just like this, I mean, it was. It was nuts. And also, like, every time I was with John, I was like, shooting star. And I mean, it was, it like, I couldn't put all the synchronicities and things that were happening inside the book, because it would sound way too cheesy. But I feel like, you know, the universe was like, hello, I'm gonna like, be really like, obnoxious and showing you all of these things to be like, hello, pay attention. I feel like there's something here.

• 1:01:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  Like, everything was conspiring.

• 1:01:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like seeing the world in color for the first time, like, life starts now.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  It's like, everything is black and white now.

• 1:01:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:32Rayna Greenberg?

  So in the beginning, your husband was just like, look at her go. She found a new buddy that lights her up. I mean, he was around a lot of this, right?

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was. I mean, he even like, left us on the beach one time. It was like, your connection is undeniable. Why would I get in the way of it? I was like, what is happening?

• 1:01:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  But, you know, is he saying, sorry, is he, is this like, in a romantic, like, I guess I just, was your husband picking up on this? Like, the writing's on the wall?

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah. Think like, I truly believe that like, a part of him, the way that he loved me was that he wanted me to experience the best love that I could experience. And I think he knew on some level, of course, that like, that was not what we had. And so he was watching me like, almost like, fall in love, real love for the first time. And he even said, like, I'm happy for you, although this like, you know, if the roles were reversed, like, this wouldn't feel good for you. But then at one moment, like, in the midst of this, he like, meets a woman and has a connection with her, and then comes to me. It's like, I feel like I met my John, and like, had my hand on her thigh, and I was worried you were gonna like, walk up. And I was, actually, that makes me happy for you too.

• 1:02:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:37Speaker 00

  Like, this bizarre, I mean, it's like, it was just like, this bizarre, like, okay, now that we're like, open and seeing what our relationship is more clearly. Like, at one point, he's like, what if John became your boyfriend and we opened our marriage? And I was like, okay, if we opened our marriage, you would be my best friend, you would not be romantic at all. I'm not like, gonna go be with John and bring that into our marriage. I was like, John would be my like, partner.

• 1:02:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  And you'd be my friend. And actually, you, like, proposing that is very clarifying. It was just a very illuminating, like,

• 1:03:09Speaker 00

  Roller coaster.

• 1:03:10Rayna Greenberg?

  So I'm curious like where your husband was in all, even the 10 years prior, like, did he feel that his needs were being met? Were you the only person that was out here being like, sure about this? Or was he like, maybe there's more for me too? Like, what does he feel all these years?

• 1:03:27Speaker 00

  I feel like if one person is self abandoning in the relationship, like my friend said, like liberation is a two way street. Like when you liberate yourself, you liberate the other. I also think if one person is self abandoning, then that can also be a pattern. And so I imagine that he, you know, if you're only having sex twice a year, I, you know, I'd hope he would want sex more than that unless he's just an asexual person. I don't know. But like, I can't imagine his needs were fully being met either.

• 1:03:52Rayna Greenberg?

  But you guys haven't really discussed.

• 1:03:53Speaker 00

  We never really went into that. You know, he met, he's now remarried and like, has moved on in his life. We more like acknowledge like how much we were in the story of our relationship rather than the reality of it. And like, you know, that like meeting John was a wake up call because he realized how asleep he was in our marriage. And like, so we had more of the like honest, like what it was, but I wasn't like, why didn't we have sex? You know?

• 1:04:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Or just like, why did you let this happen? You know, like you, we were asking yourself is like, how did I let this happen for nine years? Like, I'd be curious if you know, you know, the answer. I'm curious what his answer is.

• 1:04:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm curious too. But like, you know, and I don't want to speak for him, but.

• 1:04:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally. We understand. All right. We'll have him on.

• 1:04:38Rayna Greenberg?

  And then we'll get John on and then we'll get through with everybody. So you're like, I realize I'm in love with John or I want to be with John.

• 1:04:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love John.

• 1:04:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you start negotiating with yourself? Like, do I leave? Do I stay? What does it mean? How's it going to feel? Like, what is the self talk?

• 1:04:56Speaker 00

  Massively negotiating with myself. I'm like, this is insane. He's a stranger. You've known him for three weeks. What are you going to like leave something you've been in for nine years for this? Like sexy guy that you feel connected with? Like, you know, there was, and what the hell are people going to think? And, you know, I think there's a lot of shame around like leaving someone for someone else. Like how awful and how terrible of a person and how selfish I must be. To just be like, sorry, bye. You know, granted, like, it's so much more nuanced than that.

• 1:05:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Of course.

• 1:05:25Speaker 00

  Some could argue that, like, we've left the relationship far before the marriage ended.

• 1:05:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Speaker 00

  Um, but like, tho- that, those were the voices, the critical voices in my head. Um, what are people gonna think? Like, this is crazy. And I called a girlfriend of mine and like, kind of told her, here's everything that I think in, I'm falling in love with this person and oh my god, what do I do? And people are gonna judge me. And she was like, yeah, people are gonna have feelings about it, but like, that's not yours. And she ultimately was like, liberation is a two-way street. No one benefits from you being half in on the relationship. So you making the courageous choice will align each person to the right thing. I'm like, don't delay the inevitable. Like, you gotta-

• 1:06:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, and I'm over here, like, your husband sees it. Like, that's the whole thing. It's just like, I, that was when he, to me, if I were, if I'm putting myself in your shoes, like, the second he's like, well, maybe you should date John, we should be open. I'd be like, okay, I, but now I have my permission, let's call it. Like, I don't, I don't know. I'm just like, this is a very different situation. Like you said, there's so much nuance. This is not-

• 1:06:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  You in a marriage where your husband was in the dark and you're sneaking around. It's, it's very different.

• 1:06:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was very out in the open. I was not hiding.

• 1:06:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 1:06:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  I've never heard of anything like this. It's just like-

• 1:06:39Rayna Greenberg?

  I know.

• 1:06:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, he was along the way.

• 1:06:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Which John and I are, are meant to be together. I actually thought, I mean, I knew, I knew where your book was going, but had I not watched clips and read other interviews, I would have been like, did they become a throuple? I mean, your husband was just around for a lot of this.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  I know. I know. My agent, I was like texting my agent as it was happening. She's like, has there been an orgy?

• 1:07:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Put that in the book.

• 1:07:00Speaker 00

  That's, I was like, unfortunately, that is not the dynamic here, but-

• 1:07:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So you separated with your husband and like, the short story is you're now obviously married with John and your husband is remarried. And how long has, have you guys been married?

• 1:07:16Speaker 00

  Almost three in November.

• 1:07:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, okay. I want to go back to something you said, which is like the relationship had been over for a long time. And I think that a lot of people are very judgmental of others when they move on super quickly. And to me, it is a really one size fits one type of thing. And for many, many people, they've been in loveless relationships, sexless relationships, that it's been over for a long time. There's no specific prescribed amount of time I need to heal before moving on to somebody.

• 1:07:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree. I couldn't agree more. And like, I think women in particular, we grieve while we're in things. Because when we finally had the conversation ended, I was in, I filled with grief. I was filled with relief because I finally honored myself and did the thing that like I knew I needed to do. And I realized like, all those years of me like, asking for something and not being met, like all of those and like, the frustration and the loneliness and the like, the sadness and that all of those periods, I was like, oh, I grieved this when I was in it. And so

• 1:08:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:13Speaker 00

  That's why it feels easy, so easy to leave. And that's why I feel ready to move on. I've like, I've like, healed what I needed to heal and process what I needed to process while I was in the relationship.

• 1:08:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  And all of those judgments are such projections, and we'll talk about this too with responses. And the reason why people say those things, how could you move on so quickly is because they're fearing that it would happen to them and that their partner or their future partner would blindside them and leave them and move on so quickly, not taking into account that this is not what happened here. And even if it was, it's really not your business. Everybody has a different story. And there's like, you know, you don't always know all the details. And so I always think that. And I'm sure you've dealt with that a lot with things that people have said. And it's, you can feel where it comes from. Like, I can feel it. Like, I see people commenting or judging on whatever story it is. And you're like, that is so about you and your fears and insecurities

• 1:09:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  that we all have, that you're projecting onto to someone else without taking into account all of the details of their story.

• 1:09:14Speaker 00

  Absolutely. It tells me much more about their pain than it does about my own, like, my own story. But that doesn't make it, you know, at, at first, when I was leaving, it was like, this circle of friends in our community. And some people really got it. We're like, go Amber. Yes. Like, I'm so happy for you. And other people were like, you're the most selfish person ever. I mean, said crazy things. And You know, I've like got defensive and I tried to explain myself and they understood the story and that they knew that he was like involved in the ending. And I was like, if I can just help them understand, maybe then they'll get it. And you know, I think what I realized is that I didn't need anyone to get it because I got it. And that's all that mattered. And I can't. And no amount of explaining actually helped them get it. Because it was about their own pain.

• 1:09:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Yep. Mm hmm. Absolutely. Did you have people in your life that are no longer in your life because they just couldn't understand it at the time?

• 1:10:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I probably lost like a dozen relationships.

• 1:10:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Really?

• 1:10:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:09Rayna Greenberg?

  I think there's a lot of judgment that comes with it. I mean, there's a clip that Vienna Farin posted with you and it's a lot of the comments on the post and it's people saying stuff like, well, marriage is hard and this is selfish. And to Ashley's point and your point, that's everyone else's shit and no one else to live your life besides you do. And quantify selfish to me, wanting to be happy. I was unhappy for 10 years. I haven't I hit my quota of unhappy?

• 1:10:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  The thing that bothers me the most in life is you didn't hear the story, you didn't read the story. You didn't like, like if someone's listening to this now and they are having judgments, I would be like, what would you do? You would have stayed in it? Because here we are, you're in this happy marriage, your husband is too. We have a happy ending here. Two people that were in a relationship where they weren't being fulfilled or now in relationships where they're being fulfilled. It's just like, what would you do? Yeah. What would you have wanted the outcome to be? I guess we're fired up about this. So, anyway.

• 1:11:03Speaker 00

  Most of the judgments come from people not knowing the actual story. Just being like, oh, she just left a good man and like went for another man like.

• 1:11:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Of course, they just have this. Yeah, the headline, I guess, the clickbait as all of the information.

• 1:11:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I think life is really long. And what a depressing thing to think that just because someone might think it's quote unquote selfish, we're just going to stay with one person that doesn't make us happy forever. People live longer than they ever have. I'm going to be stuck with somebody for 70 years. And why would you want to be with someone who isn't happy with you or doesn't want to be with you? You know, like? Reserve your judgments for people who just Donald Trump. Abandon their kids or their pets. You know, so it's just like, but another grown person who let them go off and find their person. I don't know. So. I'm curious what the shift was because it sounds all very like easy, cut and dry. Like my husband saw I was so happy. And then he was like, be free, little bird.

• 1:12:03Rayna Greenberg?

  But.

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  I mean, and it wasn't. It was a roller coaster. And like he swung back and forth. And then like him and John confronted each other. Like it was. Yeah, it's in the book, but there, you know, there was some part of him was like, I'm happy for you. But it was also like, there were a lot of feelings. It wasn't, it was messy.

• 1:12:21Rayna Greenberg?

  I want to talk about your feelings though, because it sounds like as a lifelong person that says, like, push the feelings down. I'm fine. How did, how did you change? I think there's people that are like, okay, well, was John the change? Were you the change? Like, how did you decide to get out of there?

• 1:12:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, you know, and I didn't know if John was the love of my life. You know, I had this feeling of like, he's my person, but like, was he just a catalyst for me to leave this unhappy marriage? Or is he really the person that I'm going to like build a life with? And I didn't know. And but what I did know is that I no longer wanted to be in that marriage. And that was a choice I was making for me. And that was the self honoring thing. And so I think it really paved the way for, I am no longer going to abandon myself. I am no longer going to disappoint myself so that I don't disappoint others. And I am going to have to tolerate the discomfort of other people being mad at me. And of other people not approving of my choices. And like, that's okay.

• 1:13:19Speaker 00

  And like for me, as this harmonizer and pleaser, because that's how I stayed safe in my early environments. It was like the scariest thing. Because ooh, I might, you know, we're, we're wired to belong. And so belonging for me was in everybody being okay. And so the big lesson was like, am I okay? What do I want? What do I need? Is this serving me? Is this true to me? Which was so easy for my, me and my career, but is what I had to learn to do in love. And I think, you know, the, the title of the book is Loveable. Love able because me learning, that's how I learned to love myself. And I feel like, can we really love another when we haven't yet learned to like, love ourselves in that way? Like I have, and I, this is speaking to younger me, but like, you know, friends who were in that like,

• 1:14:03Speaker 00

  pleaser, don't want to disappoint me. They're like not direct. They don't say what they need. Like I'm like unclear where they stand and it's very hard, like it's uncomfortable. I'm like, just tell me, you know, and that's like earlier me, where it's like, just tell me what you want. Tell me what you need. Tell me if something's a yes or no, like disappoint me, like.

• 1:14:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Help me help you.

• 1:14:25Speaker 00

  Help me, help me. Like I want you to do you, even if you think like I might have feelings about it. Like I can handle those feelings. You don't need to handle those feelings. And so I think it's like, I've, that has really like become my like way of being in the world, which I think serves everyone around me.

• 1:14:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm curious how you have changed in this relationship and how you've found yourself. You haven't abandoned yourself. It sounded like you felt fulfilled in your career and you were happy with your career before in your previous marriage. But I'm just curious of how it's changed. You feel like a different person in your personality, how you interact with others in your career. Like it feels like you've really found yourself. And I'm just, I always like to see how that manifests in other ways.

• 1:15:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, I think I'm not like trying to prove, I'm not, I don't have that like, I need to achieve this to be worthy. Or if I accomplish this next big thing, I'm not looking for that sense of okayness outside of myself. I feel like I've found that within. And so the things that I create come from a place of like, this is meaningful to me and is an expression of what's, what's important versus like, will this resonate? Will others like this? I'm not, you know, my gaze, I feel like is less outward and it's more inward. And then, you know, here I was on the other side of a nine year sexist marriage. And now I'm getting into a relationship with a sexy man and.

• 1:15:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, that'll do it. It's not gonna light you up. I'm sure people know this.

• 1:15:54Speaker 00

  Wait, but wait, but wait. But we commit our lives to each other and we have not yet kissed. And I decided to move down to LA and to move in with him. And so he picks me up in LA with all of my things. And like, we have our first kiss, but I am terrified that, yeah, I'm terrified that like, if I can't, like, I'm so out of touch with that part of myself because I haven't been in touch with that part of myself. And I was like, oh, my God, what am I gonna, I don't even know how to do.

• 1:16:21Rayna Greenberg?

  How do I do this?

• 1:16:22Speaker 00

  I don't like, what do I do with his penis?

• 1:16:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. What's a penis?

• 1:16:26Speaker 00

  At one point I texted my friend and I was like, what do I do with his penis? And she's like, you grab it, my friends. But it was like, I was like, I felt like a 16 year old girl. And I was like, oh, God, if I like, can't measure up or like, I felt like we were equals in a lot of areas of our life. But like, if I can't measure up in the bedroom, will he leave me? And so all of these abandonment anxieties from my childhood that I never felt, because I chose relationships where I wouldn't have to feel them, came to the surface. And so what I, I thought I was like, easy breezy about my person, woo, yay, now finally let that marriage like, you know, leaving wasn't as much the hard part as like, learning how to stay when it felt scary.

• 1:17:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Wow. I mean, we're laughing, but I do imagine that's a real fear of like, relearning this skill. And isn't really like riding a bike, like, am I still a sexual person? Can I be a different person in this relationship? Will it go back to the way it was with my ex husband, all of that?

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  Totally, all of that. I'm like, yeah, I don't know, what do I do with my body in this bed? And who's he gonna think I'm?

• 1:17:26Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm sure you figured it out, right?

• 1:17:27Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 1:17:29Rayna Greenberg?

  It is like riding a bike. You figure that shit out. Yeah.

• 1:17:32Speaker 00

  I just needed to get out of my head. I was like, so in my head of like, oh, God, am I doing okay? Is he liking this? Like, do I look okay? Does he like?

• 1:17:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:39Speaker 00

  Am I like, am I, do I need to move? Practiced in front of a mirror one time. It was so embarrassing. And then he saw me and I was like,

• 1:17:48Rayna Greenberg?

  You're like, oh, it's just warming up for sex.

• 1:17:52Rayna Greenberg?

  I would practice other stuff. I mean, it's a skill you have to flex.

• 1:17:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:17:56Speaker 00

  So we figured it out.

• 1:17:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:59Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, well, you have a kid, so I would assume.

• 1:18:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, yeah, it worked out.

• 1:18:03Rayna Greenberg?

  What do you want people to take from this book?

• 1:18:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I want people, you know, I think, yes, this is a story of me leaving my marriage, but I think it's more than that. It's, you know, more than a love story. It's a self-love and self-liberation story. And I think we sometimes find ourselves trapped in the lives that we've created, whether that's like, could be a job or relationship, it could be a friendship, it can be an aspect of ourselves, an identity that we've outgrown. And we kind of get to a moment where we're like, wait, and we feel disconnected from ourselves, or we feel afraid to choose ourselves because of what other people might think. And I want people to, you know, make the choices that are right and true for them. I want them to, you know, maybe in another life, there is no other life. So like grab hold of this one and make the brave choice and do the thing that's right for you,

• 1:18:50Speaker 00

  even if people are gonna have feelings about it, because at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is how you feel about your life.

• 1:18:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think that's so beautiful. It's really beautiful. Like, I think we're all, I don't know, most of us, you know, don't want to run around hurting people or causing harm, but you do have to put yourself first. You have to put on your oxygen mask before you help others. Like, you do have to prioritize your own happiness and unfortunately, there can be some collateral damage, and I think we all move through life hoping that it's minimal.

• 1:19:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, we don't, yeah, we can like allow people's pain and hurt to touch us. But that doesn't mean that we need to do things at the expense of ourselves.

• 1:19:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, and I think it's important to acknowledge, you know, yes, you met this man and it feels like to other people, maybe optically a rash decision, but it wasn't. I think you asked yourself every day for a decade, am I happy? Do I want to be here? It wasn't just about meeting John. Eventually, this would have blown up some way.

• 1:19:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:49Rayna Greenberg?

  He just helped kind of speed it along.

• 1:19:51Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:19:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. We know you have a book launch party tonight. To get, to get ready for it.

• 1:19:59Speaker 00

  Wish you guys were here.

• 1:20:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. We would be there.

• 1:20:02Rayna Greenberg?

  We're there too.

• 1:20:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  But tell everybody where they can find the book, follow you, all the things you want to plug, any events, whatever you got going on.

• 1:20:10Speaker 00

  Loveable is available everywhere books are sold. Amberay.com has all of my offerings and I'm Hey Amberay on Instagram.

• 1:20:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, perfect.

• 1:20:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Thank you for everything. This was really special.

• 1:20:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  This really was. Yeah. So you guys get the book. You're gonna love it.

• 1:20:23Rayna Greenberg?

  And, you know.

• 1:20:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Thank you for your time and have fun tonight.

• 1:20:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:20:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Bye.

• 1:20:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Bye.

• 1:20:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, well, we hope you guys enjoyed that interview. You can find us at girlsgottaeat.com. You can get tickets to our holiday shows. We are so excited. We're doing one in New York and one in LA. And that's it. So grab those. They're gonna be such a blast. They're gonna be so iconic, so legendary. You guys are gonna be sad if you missed it. Girlsgottaeat.com, also on Squarespace. That's where we're building.

• 1:20:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Iconic and legendary sound like what Nakana name his kids. One of them is named legendary.

• 1:20:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Legendary love.

• 1:20:54Rayna Greenberg?

  One of them is probably named iconic. Iconic princess. Princess Muffin.

• 1:21:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Queen Princess.

• 1:21:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Reina, keep this in. Girlsgotta eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess. Reina is reina.greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend. And we will see you Thursday.

• 1:21:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a great week, guys.

• 1:21:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Bye.