20 VC: Running Lerer Hippeau Ventures Like A Startup with Eric Hippeau, Managing Partner @ Lerer Hippeau Ventures

Eric Hippeau is a Managing Partner at Lerer Hippeau Ventures. He is the chairman of RebelMouse and co-founder of NowThis Media. Previously, Eric was the Chief Executive Officer of The Huffington Post and a Special Partner at Softbank Capital, where he served as Managing Partner. Prior to Softbank Capital, Eric was Chairman and CEO of Ziff-Davis, which was the largest media company serving the technology sector. He serves on the Board of various private and public companies, including Buzzed & Starwood Hotels and Resorts. A special thank you to Mattermark for providing all the data displayed in today's show and you can find out more about Mattermark here! In Today's Episode You Will Learn: 1.) How did Eric make his way into the world of tech and venture? 2.) Question from Eric Paley: How does Eric compare the role of VC to the role of operator and does Eric think each draws on the same skills and strengths? 3.) What does Eric think makes a great VC and what makes a great operator? Are there any commonalities in the individuals he has come across? 4.) Eric reveals the best pitches he has seen and what made them so effective and flips the coin to discuss the worst pitches and what not to do when pitching a VC? 5.) Eric has made many investments in adtech and content, an area most VCs are hesitant of. So why are VCs hesitant of this space and why does Eric think he and Ken have been able to master it and produce great returns? 6.) With Eric's experience as CEO at Huffington Post, how does Eric view the changes to the media landscape and what are his predictions and concerns for the next few years? Items Mentioned In Today's Episode: Eric's Fave Book: The Lord of The Rings Eric's Fave Blog or Newsletter: Strictly VC, Dan Primack: Termsheet Eric's Most Recent Investment: The Drone Racing League As always you can follow The Twenty Minute VC, Harry and Eric on Twitter here! If you would like to see a more colourful side to Harry with many a mojito session, you can follow him on Instagram here! Free Ebook: How to boost your Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO) by over 100% Have you ever wanted to know who someone is simply from an email address? With Loyalty Bay's Super Users product now you can. Simply input an email address and it will go off and find publicly available profile information i.e. Linkedin, Facebook, Twitter etc for that email address. This is incredibly powerful in building a richer data profile on your users for marketers and business development people alike. Free 30 day Trial. Check out www.loyaltybay.co.uk

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  Hello and welcome to the 20 Minute VC with your host Harry Stebbings. And what better way to celebrate the festive season and Christmas coming than by having an all-star legend of the VC industry on the show? Our guest today is a managing partner at Lira Hippo Ventures. He is the chairman of Rebel Mouse and co-founder of Now This Media. Previously, he was the CEO of The Huffington Post and a special partner at SoftBank Capital, where he served as managing partner. Prior to SoftBank Capital, he was chairman and CEO of Ziff Davis, which was the largest media company serving the technology sector. And if that wasn't enough, he also serves on the board of various private and public companies, including Buzzed and Starwood Hotels and Resorts.

• 0:43Harry Stebbings?

  It is, of course, the legend Eric Hippo. And all the data and analysis used in today's episode was provided by the kind folks at Mattermark. And a little personal recommendation on that one: if you have lots of free reading time this Christmas, make sure to follow @thinker, that's @thinker on Twitter, for some awesome article suggestions. But before we dive into our interview with Eric today, have you ever wanted to know someone simply from an email address? With Loyalty Bay's super users product, now you can. Simply input an email address and it will go off and find publicly available profile information, i.e. from LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, etc., for that email address.

• 1:24Harry Stebbings?

  And they've got a free 30-day trial and you can check them out at www.loyaltybay.co.uk. And do not forget to download the free Conversion Rate Optimization ebook made for you by Loyalty Bay founder Will Roberts. The link's in the show notes. However, it's now time for me to hand over the reins, so ladies and gents, it gives me immense pride and pleasure to welcome the legend Eric Hippo, managing partner at Lira Hippo Ventures.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 1:59Harry Stebbings?

  Eric, what a huge pleasure it is to have you on the 20 Minute VC. Thank you so much for joining us.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  My pleasure.

• 2:05Harry Stebbings?

  Now, I have to say a quick thank you to Eric Paley for the intro which allowed this interview to happen, so Eric, thank you so much for that. And I'd love to start off though now with you today by hearing a little background and can you give us a quick snapshot of how you got into venture and technology?

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Okay, sure. So not to go too far back, in the 1990s, I was the CEO of a company called Ziff Davis and we published all the big computer magazines. It's amazing how some of the younger entrepreneurs who I finance today don't remember PC Magazine or Computer Shopper or PC Week, anyway, all these were Ziff Davis publications. We also had all the big trade shows like Comdex and then a variety of different other services that exclusively exclusively serve the technology industry. So we saw ourselves as being in the tech business, not not being in the media business. We sold that business to

• 3:05Speaker 02

  well, we sold it to a private equity firm and then the private equity firm sold it to SoftBank of Japan. When SoftBank bought Ziff Davis, we as Ziff Davis were about to make an investment in Yahoo, just kind of as the second institutional investor, you know, I have to say courier, but before the IPO. And SoftBank, Masayoshi Son of SoftBank liked the idea so much that he, SoftBank then ended up owning, as you'll recall, a third of Yahoo at the IPO.

• 3:40Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  And we started Yahoo Japan and then I joined the board of Yahoo and stayed on for 15 years. But that was the beginning of a number of investments that SoftBank did initially out of its corporate treasury. Because Ziff Davis being in the middle of the action in tech, we had all this deal flow. So companies like like Yahoo and GeoCities and another US web and others were really kind of sourced, as it were, by by the fact that we were, you know, in the middle of everything. Um. And eventually, um SoftBank started its own VC funds. And then we sold the business in the late nineteen nineties and I joined SoftBank Capital as um

• 4:25Speaker 02

  as an investor and um and opened a New York office. And that's so I've been investing in New York first with SoftBank and now with my own firm uh since about uh two thousand.

• 4:38Harry Stebbings?

  And then when you look back at your career now, you've been managing partner at SoftBank Capital, president at SoftBank International Ventures, but you've also been CEO at Huffington Post and and founding partner of the Lira Hippo Ventures. So let's discuss the VC to operator to VC dilemma uh in in the career. And a question from actually Eric Paley, who asked, how do you compare the two VC to operator? And do you think each draws on the same skills and strengths?

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Well, let's let's, you know, talk about what's what's common or, you know, what obviously what's common is that when you uh back a company, you're backing a business that's in formation. And having a business experience and having um, you know, the the the experience of of growing a business and hiring people and um and strategizing on the business. Uh and all of these kind of skills are really, really important, you know, when you invest. Obviously, you learn those skills uh as an operator. Um. So going back and forth, which is not something that you would do too often, but it's going back and forth. Uh really hones in on those skills and and and helps out.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  And here at Lira Hippo Ventures, all of us have an operating background and we find that to be, uh, you know, pretty important uh in terms of uh the support and the advice and the help that we can give our companies. Uh what's obviously what's different is um is um probably the the biggest difference is the time horizon. As a as a as a venture capitalist, you have to take the really, really long view. Um. Because it takes time to invest a fund, uh it takes um time to uh start reaping the um the the the benefits, let alone the profits of a fund. And then typically you want to return money first to your limited partners.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  So, you know, it'll be a a good number of years uh before you start to see money uh coming back to you as as a as a GP. Um. So you can't do this for the short term, you have to do this for the long term. Um. Um. Most businesses, you have to run them for the long term. Uh. But depending on where they are in their in their maturity. Um. You know, you you're not strategizing five, ten years ahead, you're strategizing one to three years ahead.

• 6:58Harry Stebbings?

  And do you find the longevity and feedback uh very difficult when you started out in V C? Was that tough for you coming from an operator background where it was obviously fast and rapidly iterating?

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Um. It it you know, it wa- it wasn't surprising because because obviously that's the way the business works. Uh. But you do have to learn how to be uh somewhat more patient. You also have to remind yourself uh that you're a minority shareholder, you're not running the business. And uh while you your advice hopefully will be well received, uh it's not always going to be followed.

• 7:32Harry Stebbings?

  And and how much do you push that advice then? If if you really do believe something as a V C and as a as you said, minority shareholder, how much do you push that advice on the entrepreneur?

• 7:42Speaker 02

  Well, obviously it depends on on the entrepreneur, it depends on who else is around the table. But I think if you feel very strongly about something, particularly something that um that, you know, is on in your experience or an experience of of being an investor in others, you know that they shouldn't be doing certain things. Uh. You you you're really trying to be convincing, but you can't be overbearing. Um. Because ultimately, the founders and the C E O um are the ultimate uh authority and the company will will depend on on their own ability to um um, you know, to guide the company.

• 8:20Harry Stebbings?

  And do you think there will be another operator section of your life when you look back at the the alternating sessions? Do you think there is room for another operating role?

• 8:29Speaker 02

  I I I doubt it very much. Uh. You know, we we just closed on our fifth fund.

• 8:34Harry Stebbings?

  Congratulations on that.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you. Um. So, you know, we we have a lot uh cooking here. We are very excited about um, you know, some of the investments that that we're making. And um I'm, you know, very, very satisfied with my work life. It would be shocking to me if I went back to being an operator.

• 8:54Harry Stebbings?

  Do you do you view L H V as a as a startup in itself, really?

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Well, we actually run it as a startup, yes, very much so. Uh, and our first fund was very, very small. It was eight and a half million dollars. We really didn't have any, any, uh, you know, eight and a half million dollars doesn't give you much management fees.

• 9:10Harry Stebbings?

  No, it doesn't.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  I don't even know that we had a full, first full-time employee in the first fund. I think we obviously had some in the second fund. Um, and then we built, uh, we built our team, uh, over time, you know, uh, making sure that, um, you know, what we were doing first was working, uh, adding to the team in terms of culture, building a, uh, the, the right kind of culture that we wanted, um, and so building on it in, in, you know, kind of careful ways. Yeah, we, we treat it very much like a startup and we, we, we, here, everyone does everything, you know, like a good startup should do.

• 9:45Harry Stebbings?

  And when, when you look at L H V now, it's immensely successful in terms of its branding in the New York ecosystem and its investments to date have been, you know, spectacular. So what do you think the determinant of L H V's success has been?

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Well, I think, uh, in good part, it's been because we had a very consistent uh, and very simple strategy and our, our, and we've maintained that strategy, uh, over the five years that we, uh, we've been in operations. Uh, we have not deviated from it and do not intend to. Um, and that strategy is very, very basic. We are seed investors first and we're New York investors first. So we've, our first investment is always at the seed level. We keep, uh, money in reserve so that we can follow on and that's a very important, um,

• 10:40Speaker 02

  component of our portfolio construction. Uh, and then we're New York investors first, so, uh, about seventy percent um, of our companies are in, uh, in New York itself, so we want to invest in our own backyard. Um, and, um, and that's by maintaining this, uh, this simple but consistent focus. Um, I think that, um, that's how we've been able to build on, on the brand and, um, and then the second thing I would say is. Because we are operators and have a lot of business experience, we have built a support advice system that I believe is very, very effective.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  And we in fact do get consistently high marks from entrepreneurs as being among the most helpful of their investors. And that's a very, very big part of the brand because the promise of the brand is that we're going to help you get into business and then we're going to help you successfully raise a Series A with top-tier venture capitalists.

• 11:46Harry Stebbings?

  And what do you think the biggest help is that you can provide seed investors then? What's the big value add of L H V? And that seed investors can provide in general? Is it the promise of further funding? Is it connections to partnerships? What is it for you?

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Well, we have two layers or two levels of support. The first one is we have a product. We have a technology platform. One of our team members is a full-time engineer. So we have a technology platform that we plug our companies into. And on that platform exists a number of services that are common to everybody. So a recruiting database, a marketing database, best vendors, best practices, a database with current information about Series A and Series B investors and what they're looking for. So we're continuously building new products on that particular platform.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  And there's also a communications layer that's private to our portfolio companies so that our founders and CEOs can talk to each other, hopefully support each other directly. That's one level. The second level is that each company is assigned to one partner and one of our associates. So we have a bespoke plan.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Uh for every company um with a to do list uh that we um that a company would like us to help them with and it could be anywhere from you know what you know introductions um uh help with branding, help with pricing, help with uh organizational uh structure, you know, so the uh anything that um inflection point uh in the life, in the early life of a company, uh we are here to help them and uh and have, you know, seen pretty much any situation that you could possibly imagine, uh so can, so we hopefully can cut through uh and get to the heart of the matter so that uh there's no time wasted. You you have to remember

• 13:54Speaker 02

  that because we're seed first investors, all of our companies are in the same point of um of development. They are all about to go to market or all just in market. So um so a lot of things that they have to do, now depending on their sectors obviously, but what they have to do are are well-known steps. There's no, there's not a lot of mystery uh in what needs to be done. Um you know, for a company to develop itself for the first year, get its metrics to where they should be, so that they can then raise um a series A with a top, top tier V C firm, and we get very active with that as well.

• 14:33Harry Stebbings?

  And what are, what are the biggest and most common problems then that your companies face, would you say?

• 14:38Speaker 02

  It really depends on, on, on the sector. So uh if, if you're a SaaS business, um you know, being able to correctly size your market opportunities so that you go after the very largest customers in that particular market segment is invariably an exercise that every SaaS company has to go through. Um so that in, in a SaaS market, uh the company that captures the, the largest customers or the most important customers um gets a major premium on its valuation. So.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Um. It's not obvious for a startup SaaS business that that be the case because it's the most difficult step, you know, to sell to a Fortune one hundred as a startup is way more difficult than to go start to, you know, sell to a small business around the corner. But but but that needs to be done. So we, you know, we we have seen that before. We give them a roadmap uh in how to do that. Uh so that would be just one example having to do with SaaS.

• 15:43Harry Stebbings?

  And I'd love to take a step back now and discuss the the New York seed environment as a whole. And we've we've had quite a few um seed investors from New York on the show with uh Brooklyn Bridge and F F and uh Ed Sim at Bold Start. Uh so how do you view the overall New York seed environment?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  So your seed is is pretty broad, you know. For for instance, we our our first check um in is is typically these days with our new fund is typically seven hundred and fifty two million dollars. Um so but you also have seed investors who write will write a hundred thousand dollar check or two hundred and fifty thousand dollar check. So it's it kind of it's um, you know, it's it's a a pretty broad um uh segment. But but generally speaking, uh, you know, um, I I would I would characterize the ecosystem here in New York as being very collaborative. Everyone knows everybody. Uh, we uh we co-invest, we we've co-invested with everybody, everyone's co-invested with us. Uh, we, you know, we don't get too

• 16:46Speaker 02

  um worked up if somebody else wants to take the lead, as long as the terms are acceptable. Um, you know, we we don't put our ego uh in front of uh, you know, of of our desire to invest in the very best companies.

• 17:00Harry Stebbings?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Um, and um, and and, you know, people by and large w- work well together and and really like each other.

• 17:08Harry Stebbings?

  And I have to ask now about the pitches that you've seen. Uh, with with your years in V C, I'm sure you've seen many pitches. So what was the best pitch that you've seen? And why was that?

• 17:19Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. I mean, I've I've seen a a ton of really, really great pitches. I mean, you know, a a a great pitch, I'm I'm not sure that I want to single any of them out because I I think that would be somewhat unfair. He here's what we're looking for and and and he and obviously a pitch should be kind of um adapted to that. I mean, uh uh, what we what we look for first is the idea. Is it a big idea? Does it address a very large market? Does it have a, you know, is it very original? Is it something that you can only do today because the technology has now allowed you to do that? You know, so, so it's all about the idea. Then I would say that the second thing that we look for is timing. You know, is it, is it the right time for this company to be launched?

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Because if you invest too early, it's not gonna have, the market's not gonna develop and you, you'll lose all your money. And if you invest, invest too late, you're gonna be investing in some sort of a me too company. So we're looking for that right timing. There's no methodology for that. It's, it's all about experience and just being, being in the flow, being in the marketplace. And so, once, once that is, that is established, then we really wanna know who you are, who, who is the entrepreneur? And why, why do they believe that they can do this? What's in their background? What's in their DNA? That will convince us that this is, this is the right team to be matched with the right idea.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  And then, of course, they have to develop, you know, how they're gonna build the product, how they're gonna go to market. You know, it's, it's gotta be, there's gotta be a commonsensical approach to, to developing this, this particular idea, this particular product. So the very best pitches, to me, are pitches that are relatively simple, you know, go right to the point. Don't, don't try to shower you with too much data. You can always put the data in the appendix. Because ultimately, it's not gonna be about the data. Ultimately, it's gonna be about the, the, the aha of the idea and then matching that with the right team.

• 19:24Harry Stebbings?

  And I feel, I feel it'd be a wasted opportunity if we didn't address content. You know, you've had the most amazing experience with HuffPost and as a board member of BuzzFeed. So are you concerned by, by the changes to the media and the content space that we've seen in recent years? I mean, do you think we're seeing the dying out of long-form journalism?

• 19:46Speaker 02

  No, I, I don't believe so. I, I, I, I, first of all, I don't think that long-form journalism ever had a large audience. Because it was expensive. It's always been expensive. You, you have to hire among the most experienced of journalists and you have to give them a lot of time to write a single story. So it's, it's never, it's never been that extensive.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Um. And today, um, because of the sheer size of the audience being, you know, multiply bigger than it was in the past, you will, if you, if you want to do long form journalism, as such as we do on BuzzFeed, and we did some of the Huffington Post as well, uh, you, by, by default, you're gonna find a bigger audience for, for that journalism uh, than was ever, um, you know, there in, in print, for instance. So, um, but, uh, but it's never gonna be the most popular form of journalism, because it was never the most popular form of journalism.

• 20:42Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  So, um, but, you know, it's a, it's, it's a worthwhile investment to make if you have made your investments in other forms of content first.

• 20:52Harry Stebbings?

  A- and in terms of the disappearing ad dollar, is that something that should be worried about in the content space?

• 20:58Speaker 02

  No, they're not disappearing. They, they're growing. They're coming from TV for the most part these days. Um, you know, as TV has lost its audience, uh, uh, the advertisers are shifting major amounts of dollars uh, onto digital and, uh, and obviously you have to have a video strategy as a, as a, as a media company.

• 21:17Harry Stebbings?

  Um.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  And, but those who have a, a, a well-established uh, and popular video strategy are doing extremely well.

• 21:25Harry Stebbings?

  And as a board member of BuzzFeed, we've seen the explosion of, of BuzzFeed as a news platform over the last few years. Why, why do you think that is over the plethora of other platforms that have emerged also?

• 21:37Speaker 02

  We have to remember, you know, that BuzzFeed's been around for maybe eight years now, or maybe next year will be, it's, it's year, I'm not quite sure, seven or eight years. So this is not, it's not a flash in the pan phenomenon. Uh, Jonah Peretti, the, the founder and the CEO of BuzzFeed, uh, has been a student of, of how content goes viral, how people share content, and why it goes viral, why it is shared, you know, way before it was fashionable and way before, um, it was even technologically, uh, uh, you know, capable.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Uh we we had some uh early experiments of that at Huffington Post and then he decided uh that he wanted to uh form his own company and and and and do this uh in a more dedicated fashion. Um so he he has benefited from the fact that he's built an enormous amount of technology that allows him uh to then develop the kind of content uh that becomes the most popular and it's all high quality content, it's all original and he does this on scale. And he does this and um both with kind of own and operated, you know, his own website and his own destination as well as uh on major uh social platforms such as YouTube

• 22:51Speaker 02

  and Facebook and Snapchat. So um this is not something that was built overnight, it was built over the years.

• 22:58Harry Stebbings?

  Mm hmm. And if it's okay with you, we're gonna jump into a quickfire round now.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:03Harry Stebbings?

  So your favorite book and why?

• 23:05Speaker 02

  Probably The Lord of the Rings, um uh because because it was a fantastic fantasy.

• 23:12Harry Stebbings?

  Yahoo, is it game over? What's the future looking like?

• 23:16Speaker 02

  No, Yahoo is not game over and Yahoo needs needs um probably needs to sell itself to people who can manage it better. Uh but Yahoo has an enormous amount of assets, uh namely it's taken Alibaba, it's taken Yahoo Japan and its own um its own own and operated website, uh which is still very, very large in decline, no no question, but still uh draws, you know, I don't know, six hundred million monthly active users and those could be monetized a lot better than they are at the moment. So the the company needs to basically sell itself.

• 23:49Harry Stebbings?

  Would you keep Marissa Mayer?

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Of course not.

• 23:52Harry Stebbings?

  Which VC do you most respect and admire?

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Oh boy, it's like can you tell you what the best pitch is?

• 24:00Speaker 02

  No, okay, you know, we, as I mentioned, uh we we we, you know, we work with all the top VCs uh when it comes time to finance for a Series A, Series B, our companies and you know, clearly Sequoia, Andreessen, Benchmark, you know, uh uh Greycroft, RRE, um and I'm.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  You know, Joe Calais, I mean, I could go on.

• 24:25Harry Stebbings?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Um, all have super track records, uh, their own attributes, they, you know, they, the, the, uh, their own way of operating. All of them are, all, all the top tier VCs are really, uh, really great firms.

• 24:39Harry Stebbings?

  And then what's your favorite blog or newsletter?

• 24:41Speaker 02

  I, I read Strictly VC and, um, and Dan Primack, um.

• 24:46Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's exactly every day.

• 24:50Harry Stebbings?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Um, um, I, I, I, I get Business Insider every day. Uh, Recode, you know, Tech Crunch is still very, very good.

• 25:00Harry Stebbings?

  Mm hmm. Absolutely. And then finally, your most recent investment and why you said yes?

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Maybe one of the most recent that I think is public, uh, would be the Drone Racing League.

• 25:13Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  So, so the, we said yes for, um, uh, you know, so let me go through our criteria. A fantastic idea, uh, drones are, are, are probably going to be one of the most popular items, uh, for holiday gifts this year, so. Uh, to the point, there's so many drones now that the FAA has to regulate them.

• 25:32Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Um, so very popular, in, the, the timing is now, that, that is also an incredible variety of different drones now. We believe that, um, drones are going to have the same popularity than video games. Um, and that, that people are going to want to, um, race them, uh, people are going to develop themselves as, um. As professional, semi-professional pilots, uh, that it's a very visual. Uh, because these drones that, um, most of the drones that have certain price carry a camera and you can stream that live. And you can basically, you know, put yourself, uh, as if you were sitting on board the drone. And then, uh, we found an entrepreneur, uh, who has all the right, um, background, the right characteristic, the right plan.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  Uh, so everything, uh, you know, can click for us. And we feel that that's going to be a very big business.

• 26:25Harry Stebbings?

  Well, Eric, thank you so much for coming on the show. I've hugely enjoyed chatting with you and it's been amazing to hear your insights. Thanks so much for joining us today.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  Hi Harry, my pleasure.

• 26:33Harry Stebbings?

  What a fantastic episode that was with Eric. He's a personal hero of mine, so that was very special for me. And a huge thank you again to Eric for giving up his time today to be on the show. And if you're loving the 20 minute VC, then head over to the site at www dot the 20 minute VC dot com, all in letters. And sign up to our newsletter so you never have to miss an episode. But before we leave you today, do not forget to check out Loyalty Bay's super user product, which allows you to identify and look after your best and most influential clients. This is incredibly powerful in building a richer data profile on your users for marketers and business development people alike. And they've got an amazing free 30 day trial, so there's no upfront financial obligation.

• 27:16Harry Stebbings?

  And you can check them out on www dot loyalty bay dot co dot UK, that's dot co dot UK. And don't forget to download the free ebook on conversion rate optimisation that's in the show notes. As always, we so appreciate your support and look forward to seeing you in Wednesday's episode.