Advice Line with Maureen Kelly of Tarte Cosmetics

Tarte cosmetics founder and CEO Maureen Kelly joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early-stage founders about their marketing strategies. Today we meet Kristina, who’s designed sweat-wicking underwear that's both functional and stylish. Then Ashley, who recently launched a line of chemical-free hair care products. And Marcelle, the owner of an international career coaching service. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And check out Tarte’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/de293bca-96c8-45cb-af58-30eb9e031915/embed from Maureen’s first appearance on the show in 2023. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. You can follow HIBT on X https://twitter.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 5:12Guy Raz?

  Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voicemail at [email protected]. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter.

• 5:56Guy Raz?

  It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. My guest today is the fabulous Maureen Kelly. She's the founder and CEO of Tarte Cosmetics. Maureen, welcome to the show.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  I'm so excited to be here.

• 6:19Guy Raz?

  So excited to have you back with us. We had you on the show, I think, in January of 2023.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Yes, my first and only podcast I've ever done.

• 6:27Guy Raz?

  It was so fun. We told the story about Tarte. Your story is just full of amazing ups and downs. And by the way, for anyone listening, if you haven't heard that story, please scroll back and check out the story of Tarte Cosmetics. And we'll also put a link to it in the show notes. Maureen, you are still the CEO to this day.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  I am, yes. I was not ready to hang up my high heels and hang on the beach.

• 6:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you're too young. You've got your whole life ahead of you. I want to, we're going to talk a lot about, I think a lot of the callers today probably are going to want to talk about how to break out, how to get attention, how to get more visibility with their brands. One of the things that you did right from the get go was you, I think it was your first, very first product was a, like a gel, like a gel blush, right?

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yes, the cheek stain.

• 7:16Guy Raz?

  And that, a cheek stain, it was called a cheek stain. And it was like so weird and different. And that really got you a lot of early attention, right?

• 7:25Speaker 01

  It did, it really did. You know, I felt like it was a product that was missing in the market because it was missing in my makeup routine. Put a few dots on your cheeks and you blended it and it stayed all day. And beauty editors loved it and then customers loved it. I mean, who would name something a cheek stain? That sounds like a little bit scary, right? But yeah, I wasn't like a marketing person. Had I been, I probably would not have named it a cheek stain.

• 7:52Guy Raz?

  But I think actually your instinct was right, right?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  It worked for me, yeah, in the end.

• 7:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah, and you got into some boutiques in New York on the strength of just it just being this, because you were a kid. I mean, you were so young. Trying to, to, to come across as a cosmetics entrepreneur, which you were, but still like...

• 8:10Speaker 01

  I was not a guy, you're so kind. I was not a cosmetics entrepreneur. And I think that's the thing, right? The whole like fake it till you feel it. At the end of the day, like it's okay to try things. It's also okay to fail. I've failed so, you know, I've had Tarte now 25 years and I can't even tell you how many times I have failed. You know, just gotten back up off of my knees and, you know, just took the first step and the second step and the third step.

• 8:35Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Um, Maureen, let's, let's take a call.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Let's do it. Yes, let's do it.

• 8:40Guy Raz?

  Let's give some advice. Let's see, let's see what we can do. Let's, let's, let's bring on our first caller. Hello.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Hi, guys.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 8:46Guy Raz?

  Hello. Please introduce yourself. Tell us where you're calling from and just briefly about your business.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Sure. My name is Christina O'Brien and I live in Los Angeles. I am the co-founder of Badari. Badari is a sexy and lightweight athletic underwear that you can be active in all day.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 9:05Guy Raz?

  Amazing. Okay. And, and Christina, what's, um, what question have you brought us?

• 9:09Speaker 02

  So we are self-funded. It's Danielle, my business partner and myself. And we have an Amazon page. Um, we launched on Shopify in 2022. Our main product is actually a subscription box. So every six months, surprise, you get three new panties. So that's going great. So we've, we've worked really hard. How do we scale from here? What do we do next?

• 9:35Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay. All right. We're going to get to your question in a moment, but I have some questions for you first. So I'm, I'm looking at your webpage, Badari, and obviously this is not my area of expertise. I, but, but it's so, so it's interesting. So we're talking about underwear and tell, how am I going to say like, are these performance underwear? What, how are they, what are they designed?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  They're super cute. Your wife would love them. They're adorable.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Thank you. Yes, they are essentially a performance panty. You nailed it.

• 10:02Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Um, we just found a hole in the market between a panty that was really pretty and lacy and kind of sexy to seeing on the market that there were some underwear that actually were functional, but they just weren't very cute. They were functional, but not pretty.

• 10:18Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  So we married the two together.

• 10:21Guy Raz?

  So you could wear this like on a run, at a yoga class, and then just like put on the skirt and go out on a date or some, whatever, like that, that's the idea?

• 10:29Speaker 02

  All day long. You got it for all occasions.

• 10:32Guy Raz?

  All right. Tell me how, how this idea came about. What were you doing? Cause I think you founded this relatively recently, right? In the last couple of years?

• 10:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So it's sort of embarrassing, but it's, but it's actually something that

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Tell us, tell us.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  we should talk about. Yeah. It's an, it's an uncomfortable

• 10:46Guy Raz?

  Let's talk.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  product. So here we go.

• 10:48Guy Raz?

  We're here to give advice.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Yes, my face is bright red. But anyways. Um, this is the deal. I true, true story. My best friend Danielle and I, who's the co-founder, went away on like this tiny vacation and we did a workout and post-workout. I was like, hold on, can't go eat. I gotta run and take a shower. And she was like, that's crazy. Like, what are you doing? Said, I'm sorry, like, post-workout, there's some discomfort, maybe not so much freshness, could lead to, you know, TMI, but other things.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  And she thought I was crazy. And I was like, I'll be right back. So post this trip, she comes up with this idea, like, why wouldn't we marry the panty that we like, which is like a hanky panky, all cotton, but something less more, again, lightweight, sweat-wicking, breathable. And I was like, that's genius. So we then took it upon ourselves to order, I don't know, every panty on the market. My husband was like, what is all this stuff coming in?

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Your husband was like, yeah.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  And we started to, yeah, he was literally like, I think I like this.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  This is awesome.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  I think I like this business you're in. Yeah. He's like, that's why I married you. Um, so literally, we tried everything. We literally took off the scissors and a glue gun. Like, we're not fashion textile experts. We met doing medical device sales, literally in the operating room and hit it off, like 20 years ago.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, you guys met in the operating room?

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Operating room, masks on, scrubs. So we were like consultants to the surgeons during their surgeries. And we hit it off because it's

• 12:17Guy Raz?

  What kind, by the way, what kind of devices were you guys selling?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. Well, what's crazy is at the time I was selling a mesh device for hernia repair. And you have to know that the technology of Badari today is related to that technology I used to sell.

• 12:32Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Our product today, the liner has actually small interstices, small holes to allow breathability. So it's crazy how it crossed over.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  This is like a little like Sarah Bleakley-esque, right, guy, kind of?

• 12:45Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I was thinking about that, yeah, because, because she, when she designed Spanx, it was, it was designed to, to eliminate that, like, if, if, if, you know, when women wore skirts, you could see their underwear line, right? And she wanted to eliminate that line in underwear.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, it's, it's seamless. It's great. That is such a great point. No, we initially launched as an, an active panty, a sexy panty that you can be active in all day. And then we sort of started to niche ourselves into this athletic area. Um, just again, because the active wear market is so massive. And it's growing like crazy. So we live in a volleyball area, right? So the volleyball players around here love it. Um, runners love it. The lace on the sides actually really keeps the panty in place, so it doesn't roll over. And women love that. So women that do yoga or workout, or I have a tennis player wearing my product too. So.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  You should come up with a name, like you should name that lace because like when I looked at it, I thought like it was just really pretty and that you did it for like that factor.

• 13:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, there it's, it's, it's not clear. Like all these things you're talking about are not clear on the site. Like you don't know. Yeah, you can sort of see that their performance and they're supposed to look nice, but all the design thinking around it. You know, I know you've got a graphic of the wick proof um, material, but, but even this thing that you talk about with a lace or the fact that it's designed to be seamless and you know, it, I feel like all of that energy that you're bringing to this conversation somehow needs to be reflected on your landing page, even though that may not be the place where most people buy the products from. They might go TikTok. But, but that has to be the place where your brand bible, like that's the brand bible right there, right?

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Yes, a thousand percent. Cause that's the first place I went when I was like, oh, let me check out her product. Just like read about it. You know, everybody sweats.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Right? And it's not just to me, like athletes, like personally, I would say like, if I were you, I would broaden my reach a little bit. Um, I think that like something like don't sweat it. Like we've got your back. Cause obviously it's like

• 14:55Guy Raz?

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Oh, that's cute. I like that.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  So like do some kind of like with editors, do you some kind of a sweat challenge? So you send them to do like a hot yoga class or like a spin class or something like that. And it's like, um, your brand sweat guarantee. I feel like you could do like. The marathon test, the bike ride blitz, like, you know, the gym workout gauntlet.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  I love that. I think that's incredible feedback. I think another thing we're thinking with our limited funding is like, where to go next, right? Do we find an athletic influencer? Do we try to have like Maureen's skill set, luck, Bendel's opportunity and like, get on QVC? Like, do we, do we do Google and Facebook ads? Like, kind of where do we go next to scale this company?

• 15:42Guy Raz?

  Yeah, this is a really, really important question because you've got this really cool product and your price point is not, your price point's really great, right? I mean, I don't know what, I'll be honest, I don't know what panties cost. But this is a pretty good price, right?

• 15:58Speaker 01

  It's reasonable, it's reasonable.

• 15:59Guy Raz?

  It's 18 bucks, right? So, so I'm thinking like, the idea, and you're, you're, you're trying to figure out where to take your marketing dollars and presumably you don't have tens of thousands to spend, right? Maybe you have a 10, 20, 30,000 to spend or not even that much.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Yes, I would definitely go to QVC for sure. I think this could be great, especially with, you know, I was saying the don't sweat it. I think that applies to so many different times in life. Like Rush is coming up right now. And I think like, don't sweat it. Like, that's obviously college age. So you got this. Someone that's going through an interview process, like send it to like your girlfriend, your best friends, whatever, like it's like a good luck thing. You know, for like cheer tryouts, the same thing. Bridal is coming up. It's like, I know you were saying you're like excited because you can see a market

• 16:58Speaker 01

  for activewear, but when you niche yourself so far down, it can make it very difficult too.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Well, I, I totally agree. I think this product is truly for the everyday woman. The, the working woman, you know, the photographer who's up and down all day long, the woman that

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Every woman who wears, who sweats. Yes.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Like right now, you could have worn it, you could have worn it and then put it on your Instagram and TikTok and been like, oh my gosh, meeting high rise, like. But I'm not sweating it.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  And I'm still gonna take that idea.

• 17:29Guy Raz?

  I'm just sweating listening to this.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  And I'm gonna take that idea. Thank you. Um, no, no. To, to your point, I think I've learned that my market is a lot bigger than I initially thought. Like, I had a mom that it was her daughter's sweet 16th birthday and she ordered 12 of them for her. And like, the really cute, you know, pink ones and with a cute bow. I packaged them. And so I think the market is, is bigger.

• 17:52Guy Raz?

  Got it. I'm just so happy that I have boys right now. That I'm a father of two boys.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  I have boys too.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  I love when my son's walking by. He's like, Mom, tell me about your marketing pitch. I'm like, I don't know if I want to tell you about my sexy, sweet, like seamless sweat-wicking bikini.

• 18:10Guy Raz?

  No, it's, it's, it's a super innovative product. I think, I think, you know, it's your question about where to put your dollars. I mean, I think your instincts are right, you know? Finding athletic influencers, finding an, you know, maybe putting some, some, a budget together for a PR firm. Um, but it's a kind of thing that really does, you know, it's, it's an unusual enough product that, you know, you, you can imagine bloggers, websites being interested in the story because it is, it's like, you can be sexy and you can like go on a run. You know, it's, there aren't many, many things out there like that.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  So definitely get that quote, definitely get that quote and throw it on the website. But again, I wouldn't niche so far down, right? I mean, lean into women in sports. I'm obsessed. Like, I definitely feel like, especially like right now, women in sports.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Having such a big moment. So you should be seeding this to.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Everyone you can think of in addition to like, you know, marathon, track teams, gymnastics teams. I don't know. Do SoulCycle partnership, like, you know, um, and then you can even do fun partnership with like deodorant company, like Native or something like that. I don't know. I think this is such a cool product and you have so much potential.

• 19:24Guy Raz?

  And you need to give product away. I'm sure you're doing some of that.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:28Guy Raz?

  But it's going to cost you. It's going to cost you money.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:31Guy Raz?

  But that's a big market. I mean, you're in LA.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:33Guy Raz?

  And the thing about being in LA is you are in one of the two biggest markets in the United States and one of the biggest in the world, right? What starts in LA goes national and international. And so you have a competitive advantage because you are already there.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  And do the embroidery because customization is key. Everyone loves personalization.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  That's a fun idea.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  So like pick these amazing athletes that are just killing it and doing so well because they're getting so much stuff. So they tend, you know, they tend to set it aside. But if it's personalized and customized, you're going to get a second look. I promise you.

• 20:11Guy Raz?

  You actually like put like if you're sending it like Kaitlyn Clark or something, you like embroider her name on it, Maureen? Is that what you mean?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  A thousand percent, yes.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Like what are people's nicknames? Like Google them. You know what I mean? Just think things like that. Just. And then right like on the card, just be like sweat challenge. And, you know, put like the technology. You know what I mean? Just be like, don't sweat it. You know, we've got your back. You know, just like really.

• 20:36Guy Raz?

  Look at that. Christina, you got your own in-house CMO right here.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Come on my board. I don't have one yet. Do you want to join my board?

• 20:44Guy Raz?

  The company is Badari Christina O'Brien. Good luck. Congrats. Thanks for calling in and yeah, we'll be following you.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Bye Christina.

• 20:53Guy Raz?

  So, um, so, yeah, I mean, I mean, this is the thing. Like clearly they don't have a massive marketing budget. They don't have millions of dollars to spend or thousands of, you know, maybe a few thousand. But this is the kind of product that almost screams out like a strategic partnership. And as you say, getting it to women athletes, like that could be really interesting.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:13Guy Raz?

  Like I think of on shoes and Roger Federer and like, you know, there are, you can imagine like a strategic partnership with the right. Athlete or influencer, or somebody who's willing to, of course, model these on social media, but who also has like an equity stake in the company. Yeah. That could be an interesting thing for them to explore. Yes, absolutely. Okay, Maureen, we're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, we're going to talk with a hair care expert about how to position her new line of chemical-free hair care products. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line, right here on How I Built This Lab.

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• 25:34Guy Raz?

  Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I am with Maureen Kelly of Tarte Cosmetics. Okay, let's bring in another caller. Hello. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is Ashley Stark, founder of Perry Hair Care, calling from Indianapolis, Indiana.

• 25:53Guy Raz?

  Nice.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  Perry provides premium hair care solutions for consumers seeking to avoid harsh chemicals for enhancing scalp health, hair vitality, and safeguarding color integrity.

• 26:07Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay. And what's your question?

• 26:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, my question for you guys is, in today's very saturated hair care market, with no budget for advertising, how would you prioritize your efforts to sell this product, whether targeting businesses or individual consumers?

• 26:27Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay, Ashley, awesome. We're going to get to your question in a second. But a couple of questions for me. First of all, I'm looking at your site. And this is one of the coolest things. So, Maureen, when you started Tarte in 2000, it wasn't easy. You couldn't just go to Squarespace or Shopify or wherever, No. Go Daddy and just build a website from scratch. You had to hire somebody in HTML. And I'm looking at their website, and this doesn't look like a company that has no budget. This looks like a serious, established brand, but relatively new, right? Tell us how you started the company.

• 26:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's definitely relatively new. We've been at it for about a year and a half, but we just got our product about just six months ago. So, we're very new to having the product in our hands.

• 27:09Guy Raz?

  Wow. And tell us what's your other business? Because you also are part of another hair company.

• 27:15Speaker 03

  I'm newly a co-owner at a hair restoration clinic in Indianapolis. We've been in business for almost 25 years, helping with hair loss across the board for men and women.

• 27:25Guy Raz?

  Wow. And how did you decide to create this business? Tell me the backstory.

• 27:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, we actually saw a gap in this very saturated market. We carry a lot of different product lines at the Hair Restoration Clinic. Some are more medical-grade products that focus on scalp health specifically. And some of the products are more salon-grade, focused on the hair health. So I found myself bouncing around between 20 different products throughout the week. And we just realized there wasn't one solution that really married both and was free from harsh chemicals.

• 28:00Guy Raz?

  Okay, you are direct-to-consumer, right now, I'm assuming, only, right?

• 28:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 28:06Guy Raz?

  How, so first of all, what's the different, what's the differentiating factor here? You mentioned finding a gap in the market. This is a saturated market, so what is that specific gap?

• 28:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was finding a product that really married all of those elements that really can address your scalp concerns and maintaining the exact oil levels that you need in your scalp with caring for the actual health of your hair and avoiding all of those harsh chemicals like sulfates and silicones that can build up over time.

• 28:35Guy Raz?

  So you're free of sulfates and silicones?

• 28:38Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 28:39Guy Raz?

  And I don't see that clearly on the site at all. It doesn't, maybe it is here?

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I totally agree, Guy. I feel like, in general, like you need, like, I started to go really deep into your background. I went to your LinkedIn, all the things. It didn't show like what Guy was starting to ask, like what the real point of difference is with your brand. And with hair, it's so important to help people understand like what the point of difference is with the products, what's in it, what's not in it. And I feel like you're not really seeing that as much on the website. And then the other big thing is having the before and after progressionals, which are not that hard to do. Like you have, I feel like I saw like one, like BNA. And it's very similar with like makeup and skincare, right? So you're seeing like, let's say it's like a

• 29:31Speaker 01

  You know, like a wrinkle, a product for like, you know, fine lines and wrinkles, like, you know, an eye cream or something like that, seeing like what it's doing at like the two week mark, the one month mark, the three month mark with hair. I mean, that's, that's what you have to see is the difference in like what it's doing for your hair. And I feel like that's something that you could add.

• 29:52Guy Raz?

  Oh, that's interesting. I like that idea, showing the progression. Let me ask you, let me ask you a couple of questions. Are you, you're asking whether to target businesses or individual consumers. First of all, do you go to trade shows already in the hair space, hair care space?

• 30:09Speaker 03

  No, so we're new to the product industry completely. I am considering going to one in June to get and try to get in front of some distributors.

• 30:18Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, I think you've got to go to the trade shows, right? Because you want to show this product out. And because you're talking about how do you set up meetings with the retailers and distributors and, you know, Drunk Elephant, great episode to listen to.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:30Guy Raz?

  But what Tiffany did was, you know, she went to every trade show and eventually buyers from Sephora and Ulta came by and then she got meetings and it was just her and her sister at a trade show and a fold up table, you know. And Maureen, I think you can relate to this, right? It's like you've got to, it was different when you started in 2000. You were in New York, you went to Henry Bendel's. But Ashley, you've got to go, you got to put this out there and you've got to talk about it with people because that's the, that's the way to get your foot in with retailers.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  And you're an expert. I mean, the fact that you are a co-owner in this like hair restoration company, like, I just think that like sets you apart in like the most incredible way. You're not just like a girl that wanted to start, you know, a hair brand. I mean, you are, you have, I think, like six years or so at that, at that other company. I also think you should do a hair quiz on your website. Like, so for example, having Shapetape concealer, we have a concealer quiz on the website. And it's like, are you wearing the wrong concealer? It's like the first question. So yours should be like, is your shampoo making your hair flat? Or, you know, like, I mean, you would know better with hair stuff, but you can, you know, you ask sort of like a disruptive question. So people click on it and then

• 31:48Speaker 01

  you take them down through all of these questions to where.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  You make recommendations to like what you think that they should be using and even not using because you are an expert. I mean, having all these years of experience, having this hair restoration company, that's also something I feel like is missing from your website. And when I say it's missing from your website, I mean, you could, your website's phenomenal. For someone who just started like six, I don't know, I think you said like six months ago, you started with the product. It's incredible. You can add the educational stuff in so quickly and easily because when people are having struggles with their hair, I think women panic and men. And so then they look to places for information. And if you're that source of information, you're clearly the expert, they're

• 32:33Speaker 01

  going to trust you. You have the quiz, you have the information, and then you establish like the regimen.

• 32:40Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Also, Ashley, who is your, who's like your target, who's your ideal customer? Like what, what's going on in their life that they would need this product?

• 32:50Speaker 03

  The ideal customer that we're going after is the health conscious consumer that's looking to avoid those harsh chemicals.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  So not someone who's struggling with their hair?

• 33:00Speaker 03

  They, they could definitely be struggling with their hair. We've kind of looked at a couple of different audiences. If someone's educated on scalp health at all, and they know it kind of goes hand in hand to avoid those harsh chemicals. So scalp health would be one audience, and then consumers just in general looking to avoid those chemicals.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 33:17Guy Raz?

  There has to be a network of hair salons that only source sulfate, paraben, silicone free products, right? There must be ways to find out, like if there are trade associations or, or some, some way to find out because I, I, these need to be in those salons.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a great idea. I've, so far I've been going one by one and cold calling one by one retailers can obviously take a lot of time. So I think that's a great idea to look into some sort of network, maybe that has like a list of salons.

• 33:53Guy Raz?

  I mean, I think of, I think of Dermalogica, which we had on the show, God, maybe six, seven years ago, and Jane Worland, another great episode to listen to, and how she really built that brand by being visible in salons. And over time, people saw that brand and that logo. And you've got a really nice design.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:11Guy Raz?

  I, I think a simple thing you, you need to do when, when you get off this call is just to, when you get to the site, 20% off, and I see at the bottom here, but it's not big. It's got a pop up right when you open it, 15% off. You know, I know you, and just make that just to get that email list built up and.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  And refer friends, right?

• 34:31Guy Raz?

  Yeah, and a referral program too is going to help you because your price point is really reasonable. I mean, these are, you know, 25 bucks for, you know, one of these shampoos or conditioners. So if you can create an affiliate, well.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  A loyalty program.

• 34:48Guy Raz?

  A loyalty program, and that's simple. It's just, it's just adding another feature on the website. Basically, if somebody refers somebody else, maybe they get 50% off, or maybe that person gets 20% off, and the other person gets a credit, you know. One of the things that I, I think is so smart about TikTok is that you don't have a budget for advertising. Right? Ashley, you don't have a whole lot of cash to spend.

• 35:11Speaker 03

  I have shied away from that. I know you guys are going to tell me I need to probably be on social a little bit more.

• 35:17Guy Raz?

  It's such a great way to.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Get new customers.

• 35:20Guy Raz?

  To build the brand, right? Because you're, you're, you're able to explain why you, why this is healthier, more natural, whatever it might be that you're saying.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, I love that. I'm definitely not the creative person, so all of this advice is perfect for me. And I think we need more of a voice behind the brand.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  And even if you're just using trending sounds, like if you feel like, because I know the feeling of like, oh, my gosh, what if you can't find somebody? Like, you can just use trending sounds in the meantime and then just write, like basically what Guy said. You know, like pick the trending sound, show that, you know, the hair or whatever. And then write, I, you know, some, something short like, you know, my hair's never been healthier because I'm not using, you know, because I'm not using all these like terrible chemicals or, you know.

• 36:06Guy Raz?

  It's awesome.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  I love that.

• 36:08Guy Raz?

  Ashley Stark, the brand is called Perry.

• 36:11Speaker 03

  Thank you guys so much. So good to talk to you guys.

• 36:13Guy Raz?

  Congrats. Good luck. It's awesome.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Good luck, Ashley. It's going to be amazing. And I, by the way, I texted my friend earlier who's like over hair for Ulta. So, and asked her, her advice and stuff on it. So she looked it over for you.

• 36:28Guy Raz?

  Maureen, that's a line.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 36:31Guy Raz?

  All right. Thank you so much. I love that. Amazing. Okay. Thanks so much. Thanks so much, Ashley. All right, thank you, guys.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 36:37Guy Raz?

  Wow. That's awesome. That makes me almost want to start a cosmetics line because I will know that you will put in a good word for me. You're going to call, because they all, you will know them all. And I'm going to be like, hey, can you call just Sephora and Ulta and just say, hey, Guy's got this like thing.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  I texted her this afternoon. I was like, hey, I'm going to be on. And she was like, wait, oh, my gosh, I love Guy. And she's like, of course, I'll look this over. She was like, it's really cool. She gave a bunch of advice. She was like, I think that

• 37:05Guy Raz?

  That's great.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  the brand looks great. It just needs more like BNA testimonials.

• 37:09Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:12Guy Raz?

  All right, Maureen, we're going to take another quick break. But when we come back, we'll hear from a caller who lives on the other side of the world about how to grow her career coaching business. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

• 37:44Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm here with Maureen Kelly, the founder of Tart Cosmetics. And Maureen, let's bring in our third and final caller. Hello, caller. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 38:00Speaker 04

  Sure. Thank you. So my name is Marcel Jaeger, and I'm calling from Vilnius, Lithuania. So I am in the future. And my business is Career Valet, which I've had since 2012. And we transform narratives to inspire people to break out of a rut, get a job they love, and significantly improve not only their lives, but the lives of everyone around them.

• 38:26Guy Raz?

  Got it. It's like a career coaching service.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 38:30Guy Raz?

  Okay. And what, what's your question?

• 38:33Speaker 04

  So my question is that we hear from clients all the time that our approach works because it changes their lives and they don't even realize their worth until they go through our process. And I really want to make a leap, like a huge leap forward and help a lot more people. Our main thing, our core product really is our resume and LinkedIn package. That's our most successful. So yeah, my main question is, how can I reach more customers who would benefit from that core product?

• 39:02Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay, we're gonna get to your question in a sec. A few questions that I have and Maureen may have too. You're in Vilnius, and so tell me about how your business, your company works. You're basically, you're consulting, you help consult people. Is it you? Do you have a team? Is it just you? How does it, who's, how does it work?

• 39:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I actually started the business to make it portable because with my husband's job, it takes us around the world. Every three years, usually, we move somewhere new. So my team are actually also people with disrupted careers like me. And they are, we have a team that is on four continents now.

• 39:44Guy Raz?

  Wow. Oh, that's so cool. So you've got this remote team of consultants and, and the main business model is, or is, is you offer consulting services and people pay a one-time fee. And there's three different tiers I'm seeing. Is that, is that your main, the main model?

• 40:03Speaker 04

  Exactly. Those are our main packages. We have three on the site, and that's what people come to us for. And so it's, I never thought of us as career coaches, really, because it's building the products. So it's reshaping, cover letters, resumes, LinkedIn profiles, helping with interviews. But what clients tell us is that we are career coaches, even though we don't do traditional assessments and things like other companies and coaches might. It's a little bit different. So they come away with a product, right? But through the process, it's super customized. We ask customized questions. We interview them, basically, and through a consultation, and then build the products from there.

• 40:46Guy Raz?

  So basically, you are helping to kind of build, help people build their brand when they're looking to, for a job, for a new job?

• 40:56Speaker 04

  Hundred percent. Yep, exactly.

• 40:58Guy Raz?

  Okay, got it. Okay. Maureen, any questions about Marcel's business before we dive into her question?

• 41:05Speaker 01

  So you're saying that the number one would be people that are looking to change careers completely?

• 41:12Speaker 04

  So it's not always completely. It's sometimes it's like they know they should be in a higher level position, or people around them tell them. So I think it's career changers, but actually most of the time it's people trying to get to the next level, or just get promoted within their current company, helping them, yeah, kind of brand and position themselves, see themselves in a totally different way, really.

• 41:34Guy Raz?

  So if somebody buys one of your packages, depending on the package, they go through, I mean, a personal conversation with one of the partners in the team, and they also get advice on redoing their resume and their LinkedIn profile, and also maybe some coaching for interviews and things like that?

• 41:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, and we actually do, we give them a custom questionnaire, and from there we have this one hour sort of interview, but it's more like, you know, digging more into their background, into their answers to this questionnaire. And then from there is where we build everything for them, basically. And of course, they give us their feedback, and we make edits and stuff, but it really is us doing it for them, because we tried the other way, where it's like, we just advise you on what you have, but then we realized people hate writing resumes. It's a huge pain point, and so we decided we should do it for them.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Have you thought about creating a package for college seniors?

• 42:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I love that you asked that. So my team was pushing me, because some of them have kids that are at that age. And we developed this entry-level package just a few months ago to launch for spring, and we've seen some success with that. I think the hesitation there is like, you know, it's going to be the parents paying for it, right? So.

• 43:01Speaker 04

  Sometimes.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  But it could also be a little bit more of a volume game. Like, I would use maybe even like Indeed, Twitter to like post success stories. Like, you don't have to say people's names, but just, you know, so happy to have gotten so and so hired in in social media marketing at cosmetic company. Here's how we did it. And like, then let people engage in these discussions. And then you can use SEO strategies. Like Guy and I were talking about this earlier. I know it's like a little bit of a, people still think of it as like an older thing, but sometimes the oldies are the goodies. And we look at it, it's for our number two or number three revenue driver for us within within digital marketing, so.

• 43:43Guy Raz?

  I want to see more of that, more visible about people whose lives were transformed by what you do.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Storytelling.

• 43:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I want to see more of that. I think also, one of the things that, you know, is is interesting is I noticed that you are, and this reminds me a little bit of Policy Genius, which is a story we told on the show a couple of years ago. They would basically, Policy Genius makes it easy for you to get an insurance policy, but really, the way they market is just by tons of content. They spend money on writers and and they have an editorial team that just churns out stuff around about insurance. And you guys are doing some of that. I see you've got a blog, you've got a podcast. It's called Career, can I say this word? Career Bs. That is your B I T C H E S's.

• 44:33Guy Raz?

  And and you cut through the workplace BS, as you say, in the description. So it seems like you're you're doing some interesting things around content marketing. I don't, but what I would say is do more. I'm seeing like one post, you know, every couple of weeks, you know, but but really. What works, I think, in content marketing is a lot of content, you know, regular content.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Consistency. Like, I follow someone on TikTok that talks about how to get a job. Like, I started Tarte 25 years ago. I'm the CEO and founder. Like, why do I follow that person? I just find it really interesting. It's like, kind of ridiculous that I follow them. But I think that's what Guy is saying. If you do the storytelling and you have produced this, like, really interesting, like, thought leadership, also put it on the website. And maybe even gate it. I don't know. Let users read, like, the first few paragraphs and then, like, add a firewall that requires people to pay for the good stuff.

• 45:32Guy Raz?

  That's a good idea. Yeah. Like a membership type of thing. Yeah, yeah.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Doesn't have to be a lot of money, but...

• 45:40Guy Raz?

  I also think that there's a cool opportunity to have, to think about a membership service where you get, you know, you get not just one call, but like, if you're a member, you get access to, maybe you and this team of people you have, you host, like what we're doing now, what me and Maureen are doing now, like, you host a Q and A session or you host, you know, you basically have these private conversations around specific questions, specific challenges. You bring other people together. Some kind of network opportunity could be cool. I mean, maybe there's, there's some kind of network portal that you can create on here

• 46:25Guy Raz?

  for, you know, for people to exchange ideas. I think that the content marketing that you're doing is really interesting. I would just lean more heavily into that.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe create, like, an email marketing, ongoing campaign from it, like Guy is trying to get people onto your website and then, like, to stay on your website. And that's, I think, what you want to think about because the way your business is, you kind of bring someone in and, like, your job is sort of put them back into the world, but with some of... This gated content or even like follow up stuff, you would also be able to keep them, right?

• 46:58Guy Raz?

  This is a, this is a different industry entirely, but we did an episode on Primal and I keep going talking about episodes of our show, not to promote how I built this, but just because I, I, you know, we, we hopefully our episodes are helpful and the show is free and we want people to listen.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Oh, I'd say they're helpful.

• 47:11Guy Raz?

  Hopefully benefit. Great. Thank you.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:14Guy Raz?

  We did, um, we did Primal Kitchen a couple of months ago. Mark Sisson started this brand. I love this story because he started it in his mid 50s. I mean, he was an older first time entrepreneur. Well, not first time, but he was an older entrepreneur and the way he built this brand was by becoming an obsessive, regular, daily blogger. Now, this was at a different time when blogging was relatively new, was in the 2000, you know, late 2010s, right? But he was blogging about paleo diets and people would eventually discover that. And eventually it was like, it started with a hundred and then a few thousand and eventually, you know, over 10, 20,000 people.

• 47:56Guy Raz?

  He launched that brand through people who would come to his site and read about interesting things around paleo diets. I mean, you have an expertise around how to get a job, how to navigate the workplace. I think even if you're repeating ideas that you've already talked about, you can do it in an, in an interesting way, but I think you've got to be really disciplined about getting, you know, two, three pieces of content out a week.

• 48:25Speaker 04

  Okay. Onto the blog.

• 48:26Guy Raz?

  Yes.

• 48:28Speaker 04

  And then pushing it from there, like on LinkedIn and other platforms.

• 48:32Guy Raz?

  LinkedIn and everywhere.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  Okay. That's good to know because I used to write for, um, regularly for publications in the past. And then that was years ago, right? When the business was still smaller and I felt like not much was coming from that in terms of lead generation. So I'm wondering if that's kind of what held me back from doing more content creation on my own.

• 48:56Guy Raz?

  I think some of it is, some of it is intangible. It's like, it may not directly result in lead generations right away, but it's just having that content out there is really helpful because you just never know who's going to come across it. The other thing is, just writing a lot, right? And putting out a lot of content sharpens your writing and then it creates a body of work that, who knows, maybe one day you want to write a book based on it. I mean, you should be going, anytime there's a conference, I'm sure there's conferences in Vilnius, if you can travel around Europe, these conferences, they want, they need speakers all the time that they don't have to pay. And if you can get up on stage and, you know, and talk about career and how to think about

• 49:39Guy Raz?

  career, it's another way to drive people back. I mean, these are all incremental, but all of that adds up over time.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  And sets you up as the expert in your industry.

• 49:48Guy Raz?

  Yeah, it sets you up as the expert.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  And also, the writing sets your website up for the search engine optimization, for the crawlers to find and pushes you up in search.

• 49:57Guy Raz?

  Yep.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  And lead into the, to the college grads, because it's a whole segment that needs career coaching and a resume for the first time and a LinkedIn profile, and it's a great way to get a customer for life. They're going to come back to you again and again.

• 50:13Guy Raz?

  And it's a time where people are looking for, to get, to gift kids something.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:18Guy Raz?

  You can show those testimonials.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Marcel, market it as a college graduation gift.

• 50:24Guy Raz?

  Gift.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Love that so much. Tess.

• 50:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, right? It's the perfect gift because who wants them living on the couch for five years, right?

• 50:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  You could have just put it out there regularly and like, kids may or may not, kids, college kids, may or may not stumble upon it, but if parents come across it and you're marketing it as this college graduation gift, night and day.

• 50:47Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, you can start with a question, you can start with like a question on their website. So you've studied operatic theory, now what?

• 50:58Speaker 04

  I love that you pulled that out of all the examples.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 51:04Guy Raz?

  No, but seriously, like there are things, like there are really some cool things you can do. And I think that, you know, again, putting yourself out there, going to conferences, becoming an expert, making content, being disciplined, you know, three pieces of content a week, and you're not going to be able to measure it right away, but at some point, that's, it's going to pay off. Some booker, somebody's going to, some podcast, somebody's going to find it. You've got a podcast. You've got to go put yourself out there and become the expert. You've got content. You can write, make books. You can write all kinds of things.

• 51:35Speaker 04

  Thank you for giving me that push because I know these are all things that I've thought of before, but not, you know, you're always, I always talk myself out of them and think it's not going to reach the right audience, but I can totally see that because, you know, I've gone to conferences before and then five years later, somebody emails and says, I want to work with you.

• 51:55Guy Raz?

  Yeah, there you go.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  And you're like, okay.

• 51:57Guy Raz?

  All right. The company, the brand is Career Valet, Marcel Jaeger. Thanks. Thanks so much for calling.

• 52:02Speaker 04

  Thank you both so much in letting me share Career Valet with you.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Thanks, Marcel.

• 52:07Guy Raz?

  All right. Awesome. Maureen, I think we should, we should just change our fee structure here. I'm going to do, right? Like I'm thinking what?

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 52:16Guy Raz?

  Face to face.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  This is so fun.

• 52:18Guy Raz?

  At least 1,500 bucks.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Seriously, we've got to create a gated, you know, gated community.

• 52:23Guy Raz?

  We're going to do this. All right. I'll start writing the marketing. I'm going to start writing the, the, the content. I'm going to do the content marketing.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 52:30Guy Raz?

  Just, yeah.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  So fun, right? I feel like I just hope they do it all.

• 52:36Guy Raz?

  When you, if you, this is a version of a question that I get asked a lot, and I know you get asked this a lot, and I may even have asked you on the show, but it is a good question, and I do think it's worth asking. So I'm going to ask you the question again, that you've been asked for, which is, if you, if you could go back now, you know, to the 20 something Maureen Kelly, and you, but you can't say, don't worry, it's going to be okay, but you, it's going to be actionable advice. What's a piece of advice you'd give her?

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Oh, that's good. I would say embrace failure as a lesson.

• 53:10Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Understand that it's not the opposite of success. It's part of success.

• 53:17Guy Raz?

  It's a path, on the pathway to success, you gotta stumble a little bit.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, or a lot of it. Each setback is going to be an opportunity to like grow and adapt.

• 53:27Guy Raz?

  That's right. That's great. Great advice. Yeah, failure is critical. You have to fail.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Every setback is a setup for a comeback.

• 53:34Guy Raz?

  And it sucks every time. It sucks every single time and every time I have failed. And I'm sure you agree with me on this. It happened for a reason. And then you reflect on it like a few years later and like, God, I'm so grateful for that failure because I wouldn't be where I am now if that failure didn't put me on this detour.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  It never feels like it when it's happening, right? But you've just got to get back up and keep moving.

• 53:56Guy Raz?

  Keep moving. All right, cool. Maureen Kelly, thank you so much for coming back on How I Built This, for coming on to the advice line for the first time.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  I love this so much. So fun.

• 54:06Guy Raz?

  Will you come back?

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. Yes, yes, yes.

• 54:09Guy Raz?

  All right, amazing. We're going to have you back.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  This is the best.

• 54:12Guy Raz?

  And by the way, if you haven't heard Maureen's episode, Tar Cosmetic Story, go back, check it out. It's just scroll down to our podcast queue. We'll put a link in the show notes and in the podcast description. And thank you, everybody, for listening to the show this week. If you're working on a business and you'd like to be on the show, please send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions or problems that you'd like help with. We will do our best to help you. And make sure to tell us how to reach you because, you know, some people just leave messages and they hang up. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or you can call 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. Oh, and one more thing.

• 54:55Guy Raz?

  Don't forget to sign up for my new newsletter. You can sign up at guyraz.com. It's free and it's full of insights and ideas from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. And we'll put all of this information in the show notes. And thanks. We'll see you back here next week. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Chris Messina, Elaine Coats, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.