Of Oligarchs and Billionaires — With Teddy Schleifer

Teddy Schleifer covers billionaires as a reporter and founding partner at Puck. He joins Big Technology Podcast to discuss the sanctions against Russian oligarchs, how (and if) oligarchs differ from billionaires, and whether putting pressure on the oligarchs can help end Russia's war in Ukraine. Stay tuned for the second half where we discuss tech's connection to the oligarchs, and whether their money plays a role in Silicon Valley. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 0:43Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 1:03Speaker 01

  LinkedIn Presents.

• 1:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  Hello and welcome to the Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool-headed nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond. Well, if you've been following along with the war in Ukraine, you probably know that one of the biggest storylines and probably one of the most least understood storylines about the war is that the United States and countries around the world are starting to sanction Russia, specifically looking at their oligarchs. There are going to be major implications when it comes to this, taking aim at the rich people coming out of Russia. And I think that this is a new form of warfare and we're going to start to see some ripple effect come through, and it definitely touches the tech world.

• 2:05Alex Kantrowitz?

  So here to discuss it with us today is probably the perfect man for the job. Teddy Schleifer is a founding partner at Puck, a journalist and a friend of mine. It's been a long time coming, but finally Teddy is here on the show to tell us a little bit about what the sanctioning of the oligarchs means, both for the global financial system and for the tech world, where they have been tangentially, if not more directly involved. Teddy, welcome to the show.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Thank you. I'm excited to try out some of my native Russian that I have definitely not looked up in Google Translate. Long time Russian speaker.

• 2:39Alex Kantrowitz?

  Can you speak Russian?

• 2:41Speaker 02

  A real Kremlinologist. Sure, let's go with that. I have some ancestors who came from Ukraine in, I think, like 1890, as all good Eastern European Jews do. And so, you know, I feel a special connection to this storyline.

• 2:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  Now, your beat is largely billionaires. Did you ever think it would intersect with your past in this way?

• 3:04Speaker 02

  I can't say that I saw this one coming. You know, I actually do have a serious connection to this. All Moscow jokes aside, my dad, as some people know, I think I told you this, Alex, my dad came from Hungary in 1956, also fleeing Soviet oppression. In that situation, there was a revolution in which the Hungarians were protesting against their Soviet overlords. So the Soviets were already there as opposed to an incursion. But my dad escaped to Austria in 56 and then came to the US. So all jokes aside, I do feel like this story, watching

• 3:46Speaker 02

  what's happening in Ukraine, you know, does make me think about my lineage to the US and sort of another Eastern European struggling democracy is trying to break free of kind of the Russian orbit. So I am thinking about a little bit about it in all seriousness.

• 4:05Alex Kantrowitz?

  Fascinating. And now it has intersected with the stuff that you work on, and particularly when it comes to the way that the oligarchs are being sanctioned. You know, I'm titling this episode of oligarchs and billionaires. You cover the billionaires really closely, but can you just give us an introduction to who the oligarchs are, how they got their money?

• 4:23Speaker 02

  Sure. So, you know, many years after 1956, when the Russian economy, or then the Soviet economy was liberalizing, there was still a lot of state-owned control over the economy. You know, I think this started with Gorbachev and then with Boris Yeltsin and eventually Putin. And this was not, you know, a liberalization in which, you know, a free market economy just bloomed out of thin air. Basically, there was a lot of state-owned winners, sorry, state-created winners. And basically, what happened was people who had access to the Kremlin,

• 5:08Speaker 02

  it was, had more opportunity to enjoy the riches of capitalism than others. Previously, if you had a connection to the powers that be, you were able to win the spoils of capitalism. Now, is that real capitalism? Not really. But what ended up happening was all these sort of state-owned enterprises, probably most prominently the oil companies, the winnings went to people who were politically powerful. And that's sort of what started the original oligarch era, I guess, of 1990 or so. And then Putin came in, I think a decade later. And then eventually, you know, we had the capital O oligarchs, as we now know and love

• 5:51Speaker 02

  them, who have enormous power in Russia, though I think there's some debate about whether or not they have as much power as the US and the West seem to think they do. But that's how we got here, was it's sort of a vestige of the liberalization of Russia's economy with the fall of the Soviet Union.

• 6:10Alex Kantrowitz?

  By the way, it's an important point that you bring up, talking about how they came into their money largely from this privatization effort. People have been asking, why do we call them oligarchs and we call the rich people in the US billionaires? Is there actually a difference? But it does seem like there is a distinction. Or I'm curious where you are.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, I guess, I guess a more, a more, depends on your politics. I mean.

• 6:31Alex Kantrowitz?

  Because Bernie Sanders is just calling them oligarchs now.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  I mean, look, I mean, if you believe that, you know, what's the saying on the left? Every billionaire is a policy failure. If you believe that it is impossible in the United States to accrue so much money without some crime against humanity, you know, real or metaphorical here, you know, then yeah, maybe you'd think that they are oligarchs, right? You'd think that there was some state coercion, you know, when Elon Musk gets, you know, federal subsidies to grow Tesla, does that make him an oligarch?

• 7:10Speaker 02

  When Jeff Bezos kind of is able to develop a web of kind of contractors and, you know, poorly paid factory workers, is that him subverting the law and in a way that is oligarchic because the government is not prosecuting Amazon? Like, sure, I mean, these things become stretches, I think, depending on, you know, your politics. But I don't think that they, the American billionaire set are oligarchs. I think that they are clearly have more power than than you or I, but in a place like Russia, where the winnings of capitalism are much, much less kind of evenly shared here. I mean, there's a, there's a few people in Russia who have enormous power, and I understand

• 7:55Speaker 02

  that Bezos and Musk have enormous power, but, you know, I think that those people have come into their riches in a less privileged and less unfair way, in my opinion. What do you think?

• 8:10Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, I think there's definitely a distinction. I mean, it, you know, have the, have the billionaires today benefited from, you know, some structural inequalities and some structural issues in the system, for sure. But to call them oligarchs, to me, you know, you know, basically, people who are handed these billions by a privatizing Russian government is such a stretch. We'll do a live fact check here also. So Bernie Sanders did call them oligarchs. He actually, he referred to the baseball owners when they were locking out the players as baseball oligarchs.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  I love it. Usually, usually when you fact check yourself on your own podcast, it's like, I got it wrong. But here it's like, just kidding, I got this one right.

• 8:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I was paying close attention to the baseball lockout, so I got the Bernie Sanders angles covered.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Zero, zero Pinocchio, the word.

• 8:59Alex Kantrowitz?

  Exactly. So Teddy, what has happened in the aftermath of Russia's invasion of Ukraine to the Russian oligarchs as we know them?

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Sure. So let's start, I guess, with the logic. Russia is, you know, a quote unquote "democracy," right? There are free and fair elections, of course. So the West has sort of settled. That's a joke for folks who do not know. I was smiling at the end of this other. That was a joke. Capital J joke. So Russia is sort of a democracy, sort of not, depending on how you see it.

• 9:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  Come on, Teddy. It's not a democracy.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  I'm being generous here to our Kremlin overlords. The West's strategy has been, in part, to isolate Putin and to isolate Russia and to create tremendous economic destruction for Russia as a way to show them that this is not acceptable behavior. As part of that, there's been frankly, a very unanimous Western sort of embargo against Russian goods. You know, lots of Western companies have withdrawn from Russia. They

• 10:18Speaker 02

  started kind of tripping over themselves to step out of Moscow more quickly than their competitors. And part of that economic freeze is meant to hurt the people in Russia, which is not a democracy, meant to hurt people in Russia who seem to have some power over Vladimir Putin, which are these oligarchs. So the notion is, well, Russia might not be accountable to, you know, its hundreds of millions of residents, but Russia is accountable maybe to, you know, the two hands' worth, not two hands' worth, but let's say the two

• 10:58Speaker 02

  hands' worth of oligarchs, and they can kind of stage a mini-election, so to speak. So maybe Joe Blow in Moscow doesn't have any power, but let's say Alisher Usmanov, whom I'm sure we'll talk about in a second. Aleshur has power and maybe Aleshur can call Vladimir Putin and say, hey Vlad, you know, you should really cool it with the invasion of Kiev because my yacht just got seized in the Mediterranean. So I'm not happy about that. And, you know, I would really appreciate it if you would chill with the, you know, battalion and war crimes happening all across

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Ukraine. So the logic here is, is that there is a way to use the oligarchs against Putin and create a real kind of democratic cost to Putin by using sort of the, the central ten of democracy, which is that, you know, the public has power, but in this case, the public is a very small number of people. So is that going to work? Obviously it hasn't worked yet. And as I mentioned a moment ago, there, there are some critics who wonder whether or not Russia is really as kind of oligarch driven as it was, say, 20 years ago. My colleague, Julia Yoffe here at Puck has been talking about that.

• 12:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. Can you expand on that a little bit, Teddy?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 12:21Alex Kantrowitz?

  What's going on?

• 12:22Speaker 02

  It's just the idea that Russia has changed over the last 20 years. And, you know, Putin has kind of centralized power and that maybe this is, you know, as you were saying a moment ago, Alex, you're not really sure if this is really a democracy. If this is like a dictatorship totally dependent on the whims of one person, is really an oligarchy where, you know, a, it's, it's diffuse power across a large number of people. Cause like in the example I just gave of Aleshur Usmanov, maybe Aleshur Usmanov, you know, calls up Putin, calls up Putin and Putin doesn't take the call. You know, that, in that case, a lot of the Western strategy around kind of using these oligarchs against the Kremlin would, would prove foolish or

• 13:07Speaker 02

  outdated. So it's possible the strategy does not succeed. And to date, for instance, you know, I don't know if the oligarchs are, are, you know, signaling Vlad, you know, with five, five seconds disappearing messages telling them to relax.

• 13:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  So this is sort of besides the point, but it's something I've been wondering about as this has been going on and where else to ask it but here. Aren't there like, how are the Western countries or the countries that are seizing the assets of the oligarchs doing it? Like, don't they have legal systems that protect property rights? And is how possible is it for a government to just basically take whatever they want from its citizens?

• 13:48Speaker 02

  That's a good question. I actually don't know the answer.

• 13:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Or not even citizens or visitors?

• 13:51Speaker 02

  I mean, if we're not asking it here, we should, we should be asking it elsewhere. I mean, that's actually a good question. I don't, I don't actually know how, how that actually works. I mean, lots of these assets are no longer in, you know, these are not assets in Russia. I mean, I think, I think part of the key here, right, is that lots of Russian assets have been moved overseas to sort of enjoy the beautiful machine that is the free market. So in places like London, there's tons of kind of real estate that's owned by these Russian oligarchs. They own sports teams there. There are jets and yachts scattered across the Mediterranean. So a lot of these assets are not in Russia, but

• 14:33Speaker 02

  it's actually a good question. I don't, I don't totally know how legally this works in practice.

• 14:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, it's interesting because, I mean, you know, I'm not saying, this is not me arguing against these sanctions. I think they are, there are, sanctions are necessary in this case, but it also is interesting, like if governments can just like pick up and take property from anybody in, in the country, like where else can they go after that from people they don't like?

• 14:58Speaker 02

  So what I'm hearing here is you are definitely arguing against the sanctions. Is that?

• 15:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  No, I'm not. I just, well, if we were on Twitter, then you would be dunking on me and saying that. But, you know, I think that this does lend itself for a more longer form conversation and exploring about like, you know, where this, where this might go. But let's move on from that exactly.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 15:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  So, so it, I want to actually kind of talk about the seizures of, of a property. It's been pretty, pretty fascinating. I mean, the, the governments worldwide have taken yachts and apartments. I mean, have you, have you been following it? There was like this, there's also these graphics that you can see of like oligarch jets like flying in tandem when they're like, oh, we thought we had like a free, a nice base or a place where we would sort of be free of. You know, confiscation in one country and then they learn, okay, maybe that's not going to be the case and they just all bail together. So.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Do you have a sense of like the scale and sort of, you know, what's being taken?

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, there's, there's sort of the assets that make for sexier headlines and the assets that do not, right? I mean, there are all these yachts, right, that have become, which I think it covered obsessively by the media in part because, not because they necessarily cost that much money, but just because they are.

• 16:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Symbols.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Such like beautiful examples of excess, right? In a way, and they're also like physical things that can be captured very easily as opposed to like, you know, an apartment building or something like that. But yeah, I mean, like there, there's this sort of entire Western government, you know, in the US, I think the DOJ has a special division set up for this, basically to, to find all these things. And it's not necessarily easy because, you know, the Western assets, sorry, the assets could be, you know, hidden in faraway places. It's not as if there's just like, you know, some, some yacht sitting in the middle of, of the Mediterranean here, right? Sometimes it could be moving. And it's funny, there's, there's this whole cottage industry of media coverage that basically

• 16:59Speaker 02

  looks at the kind of where, where these assets are at any given time. Nick, there's also all the sports teams that are owned by various, you know, Russian oligarchs and, you know, Roman Abramovich, who owns Chelsea, you know, he's been under some pressure and clearly all the Russian oligarchs that have assets right now and, and are sort of have to play defense. And this is not only true from a, in terms of their, their net worths, it's also their reputations, right? These are people who have sometimes used kind of philanthropy to make themselves seem, you know, like they're very generous

• 17:40Speaker 02

  patrons of the arts or of sports. And now suddenly everyone, you may have forgotten that they were oligarchs over the last 20 years. It's just, you know, my friend Yuri or my friend Vlad or my friend Alashar, but suddenly.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  As part of the isolation from the West toward this class of people,

• 18:01Speaker 02

  there is now a reminder of just how they got their money in the first place, which is something that I think lots of Western corporations would have liked to pretend never happened.

• 18:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right, and the higher ed thing that you talk about is definitely in play. I think MIT has gotten a million or a billion from Russian oligarchs, and NYU has gotten something like $4 million. So they also do touch tech in like a pretty interesting way. You have people like Mikhail Friedman, his letter one has invested hundreds of million in Uber. And then you've done a lot of reporting on Yuri Milner, who's not an oligarch but has association with them. I think you call him an oligarch ally. So before we get deep into Yuri, can you just talk a little bit about, you know, is there a tie in with Silicon Valley here?

• 18:55Alex Kantrowitz?

  I mean, I guess Silicon Valley takes money like any, you know, a big, big pillar of the financial system. There's money coming in from almost everywhere. How significant is Russian oligarch money to Silicon Valley?

• 19:08Speaker 02

  I think the answer is not that significant. And in some ways, this makes this easier than I think kind of the freak out over Saudi money, for instance, in 2018 after the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. There's not that much Russian money in Silicon Valley, in part because not that much Russian money really has left Russia, you know, except for talking about these kind of isolated individuals. It's not as if like, you know, Russian teachers' funds are LPs in foreign, in venture capital firms in the way that like the Ontario Teachers Fund is an LP in tons of venture capital firms. So it's pretty isolated, I would say, overall. And that has had two main effects. One is that, you know, it's sort of easy to have a strong opinion

• 19:52Speaker 02

  about the Russian invasion of Ukraine if you, you know, there's not, there's no real political blowback. But on the other hand, it's also kind of made the few places that do have kind of ties to Russia more under the microscope, just because there's, you know, I think obviously the media angle here, the media has decided to scrutinize this. And I guess this is a meta criticism of myself. I've decided to scrutinize this. Let's not pretend, not use the passive voice here.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  There's just not that much Russian money in Silicon Valley. And you're correct, there is not that much money that is coming from oligarchs directly. In fact, I'm not aware of any money that's come from oligarchs directly. Because if there was, this would be like a pretty easy question, I think, for the industry. Right? If there was, you know, Vladimir Putin family office was an LP in Sequoia. I think this would be a pretty easy decision for Sequoia. But we're going to talk about Yuri Milner in a moment. And I think the precise reason why this is more of a judgment call is that it's not really clear. How do you assess Russian money that is not from an oligarch directly,

• 21:06Speaker 02

  but is sort of indirectly from an oligarch or indirectly was from an oligarch? And that's precisely what makes this a tricky situation. Because in Russia, some people would argue that any money that leaves, you know, the borders is in some ways authorized by the Kremlin. I think people could have a good faith disagreement about that. But, you know, does every money, does every dollar, every ruble that leaves, you know, a bank or a wealth management account in Moscow or St. Petersburg, does every cent of that have some sort of stench? Or can there just be, you know, good natured, well meaning capitalists who happen to be Russian?

• 21:49Speaker 02

  And you find this entire exercise of scrutinizing Russian money to be xenophobic, maybe even racist? It's a good question.

• 21:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  Teddy Schleifer is with us. He is a founding partner at Puck, which is a great website you should check out. Also, you know, a journalist there. So he has done some great work, including on Yuri Milner. That is a question at hand. What happens when Russian money comes into Silicon Valley indirectly? You know, is this a witch hunt? Is it, you know, potentially xenophobic? Or is it a legitimate question to ask? We will do that after the break. This episode is brought to you by Avpoint. Everyone's racing to roll out AI right now. Co-pilots, chatbots, agents doing real work. But here's the part nobody loves talking about. All that AI runs on your data. And most teams have no single way to see it, secure it, and prove it's under control. That's exactly what Avpoint does.

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• 23:27Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 24:10Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 24:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast with Teddy Schleifer. He's a journalist and founding partner of Puck. You can find Puck at puck.news. So Teddy, tell us a little bit about who Yuri Milner is. And then again, a little bit about how some of that indirect oligarch money comes into Silicon Valley.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  So Yuri Milner is, I would argue, Silicon Valley royalty. You know, we talked about Elon a moment ago, Sheryl, Jack, Zuck, Yuri. Like, I think he's a first name guy. I don't think, I don't think, I don't expect average people to know who this guy is, but like, listen to this podcast, no Yuri. So he comes here, I believe he sort of is sent or comes ashore, not to be, not to be too reductive here, but you know, he takes a small boat across the Pacific. No, he comes here, I think in 2008 or 2009, maybe, right after the, in the throes of the financial crisis.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  And he's helped along here by a guy named Alashar Usmanov, who I've mentioned offhand a couple of times. Alashar Usmanov is, I believe, a metal magnate and is, by any conventional definition, an oligarch. And let's just set the context here of when this is happening. This is Obama is just about to be elected or has been elected. He comes into office when the West is talking about things that sound ludicrous in retrospect. Notions like a Russian reset. Dmitry Medvedev was about to become, or I think was the leader of Russia. So Putin was theoretically sort of out of the picture, sort of.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  And this is a time in the Russian-American relationship when the idea of money being coming from the Russian government or from Kremlin-connected sources and being invested in US startups was not as crazy as it sounds in March 2022. So Yuri comes to Silicon Valley and DST Global, which is the name of his firm, I believe it's the largest LP at the time, I don't even know the exact percentage, it may have been disproportionately, it's the largest LP at the time, may have been a majority, comes from this guy or comes through this guy who is an oligarch. Now, what happens over the next couple of years is Yuri Milner makes this famous investment in Facebook. It's a late-stage investment in Facebook.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  It's sort of been written about in sort of venture capital histories because it was very unique at the time. Yuri does not take a board seat at Facebook in exchange for this big investment, which is sort of abnormal. He ends up buying lots of employees' shares. He does lots of things that today in late-stage investing wouldn't be that weird, but at the time it was like a landmark deal. Everyone thinks Yuri Milner overpays. Of course, the joke is on them because Facebook and his, you know, late-stage investment in Facebook is, makes him fantastically rich. He buys a $100 million chateau and I believe in Los Altos. It works. And what happens when it works in venture capital is suddenly other people want to give you money.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  So then I think by, you know, the second fund or the third fund, you know, this oligarch is, ends up being a pretty small amount of money that Yuri is investing in startups. So much so that as of today, his firm says that only 3% of the money of the total that has been raised cumulatively comes from this dude, sorry, comes from Russia at all. So why is everyone freaking out about that? That's sort of the question is, this money was pivotal to sort of Yuri Milner's American dream being a reality, but he is correct that as of right now, it's a very small percentage of the assets he has managed.

• 28:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. And so before the break, you asked this question, basically saying, you know, is someone who has connections to the oligarchs, someone who's like deserving of scorn or can somebody just be, you know, a well-meaning capitalist of Russian descent and, you know, have the system, you know, just sort of let it be? And, you know, I, let's be honest, our society is definitely prone to witch hunts. I don't know which one, which one is in this case, but you've been, you know, doing a lot of reporting on it. I'm curious what your, what your perspective is on, on that question.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  So Yuri is also an Israeli citizen. He still, I believe, has Russian citizenship, but he's not, you know, and he obviously lives in the US. I think he moved here in 2000, around the time he bought the house, 2009, 2010. Look, I think if this was, I'm trying to think of a good sort of analogy here. Like, let's say, you know, Yuri was from like some other country that is equally heinous, but maybe isn't quite as closed off. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something that's incorrect, but like, I'm thinking like, let's, like, I think if Yuri was not from Russia, right, where there is kind of strict

• 29:19Speaker 02

  capital flow, you know, you could say that, hey, just, you know, just because Yuri, Yuri should not be assumed to be perpetually, you know, an agent of the country he was born, which of course was not his choosing, and he came to the US eventually, and, you know, has an American life right now, and, you know, speaks perfect English, and is a normal, you know, I've met Yuri before, he's a normal, normal guy, who just happens to be Russian, right? I think if you were to say, you know, why is this being, kind of uses prejudicial evidence against this person in perpetuity, you know, that maybe is discriminatory. But in this situation, you know, I think there's a good debate, and I don't know if I have the, if I have a definitive answer here, Alex, but there's

• 30:03Speaker 02

  a good debate about whether or not any individual could get money out of Russia without being in some way tied to the Kremlin. Now, you know, is this, is, you know, Vladimir Putin, like texting Yuri Milner every day and saying, you know, please say X or Y, you know, this begins to sound like kind of theories about like John F. Kennedy being, you know, in the pocket of the Pope.

• 30:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, it's very Alex Jonesy, yeah.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. But, but clearly, this is a unique situation, and I wonder what folks who are

• 30:39Speaker 02

  More well versed in sort of the way in which the Russian economy is currently structured, whether or not Yuri could be seen as totally independent agent, or whether or not he still has some ties to kind of, you know, Russia. I wonder, you know, if you'd see a family or property there at all or anything like that. It's a hard call. Um, I think if this was any other country, I think Yuri would be correct that, you know, this is pretty discriminatory. In this situation, it's hard to get out, kind of to have money that leaves the country ever. Um, without feeling that way.

• 31:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. And so, um, so actually Yuri's had these like a pretty interesting reaction. He like initially was silent and then he decided that he wanted to comment. And he actually came out pretty strongly against the war. So can you talk a little bit about the progression of his, of his statements?

• 31:26Speaker 02

  It's been a fascinating evolution and requires some Kremlinology to understand, or Tom Wodk analysis of various sentences. You know, I first reached out to Yuri Milner's team probably a month ago by the time this is going to come out. You know, at the time, Russia was clearly barreling toward war. Um, Western countries were beginning to kind of, uh, put into place that quasi embargo or that blockade or that, uh, the sanctions regime that eventually followed. And I was curious what Yuri thought about it. I mean, it seemed like a pretty normal request, given, uh, his well-publicized ties to, uh, the Kremlin, at least historically. He at first was kind of laying low. He didn't say anything, I think for, you know, maybe a week or 10 days, which, you know, fine.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Um, but clearly I can tell you, I wasn't the only one asking because this was not entirely media created, uh, controversy. I was at a tech conference in Los Angeles a couple of weeks ago. People were definitely talking about it. That was kind of stage one, act one of this three-part play. Act two is, is the statement that Yuri Milner's foundation, which is called the Breakthrough Prize Foundation, um, releases. It's on March 3rd. And I'll, I'll read you kind of a line from it. And then Alex, I want you to listen to this and try and come up with the word that I never say. Okay. You ready?

• 32:45Alex Kantrowitz?

  I know what it is already. It's Russian.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Well, play along for the audience. Okay?

• 32:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I've read your stories, but yeah, go for it.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  This is called a gimmick. Okay? The Breakthrough Prize Foundation was established to help nurture humanity's highest qualities. Honesty, curiosity, creativity. Their values are at the root of all scientific progress, blah, blah, blah, blah. War is the opposite. It shows humanity at its worst. It feeds on lies, prejudice, destructiveness. It breaks us apart and chains us to the errors of the past. The current war in Ukraine is no exception. Blah, blah, blah. In light of the devastating war and the tragic humanitarian catastrophe in Ukraine, the Breakthrough Prize Foundation today pledges to make an emergency contribution. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, that's the gist of it. What's your, what's your?

• 33:32Alex Kantrowitz?

  No, no, it's, you know, it's very passive voice. There's a war in Ukraine, but it doesn't really talk about like where the war originated, who started the war.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  Especially given, there's a reason why the Breakthrough Prize is making this, making this statement is because of Yuri's involvement.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  Yes. The, the, the missing word is Russia. Like, you know, it's just like, there's this devastating war and this tragic crisis catastrophe. And it's like, wow, you know, this is almost like poetry as you read this, you know, and there's just no description of kind of what caused this war in the first place. So that's Act Two. And the third statement comes out, uh, you know, a little over a week ago by the time this airs. And it's just a very, very different tone. I'll read you a quick snippet of that. I'll spare you the, uh, the play acting by my voice. You know, it says, uh, as, as the terrible war in Ukraine continues with casualties and atrocities mounting, the Breakthrough Prize Foundation strongly condemns Russia's invasion of Ukraine and its unprovoked and brutal assaults against the civilian population.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  You know, clearly, uh, the situation changed and, um, the Breakthrough Prize and, you know, that doesn't get released without Yuri's agreement. I'll just tell you that. Um, and his firm eventually releases a similar statement that is similarly harsh. So, so Yuri kind of goes from being very cautious, sort of avoiding reporters to, you know, making it clear that he is done with Russia. Like, it's hard to believe after these statements that Yuri Milner will have any relationships in Russia going forward, at least with Russian oligarchs and Russian powers. And to some extent, maybe that's like a reflection of reality, right? Which is that it is impossible to

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Be like the idea of this reset that I mentioned, um, you know, uh, earlier, you know, now 15 years ago, where you can sort of be half in, half out, you can be in the United States, but still have business relationships in Russia. It kind of feels like, you know, we're creating a new hermit kingdom in perpetuity. And maybe Yuri is just reflecting, you know, the reality, which is look, he lives in the United States for a decade plus now, you know, he's a famous investor. He hosts this big awards gala, he's a celebrity, he owns this big house in Los Altos, like, he's done with Russia, he's an American king and like, who cares about whether or not he is, has relationships with the oligarchs anymore because the oligarchs are on the down slope and he's on the up slope, so who cares?

• 35:59Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that like, you know, it's definitely a great area in terms of like, I mean, this guy should definitely should not be, Yuri should not be punished in the same way that the oligarchs are, he's just not one. So it's hard to, even if he's had a relationship with them, I think the point that his money is, uh, just a small percentage, um, coming from them at this point is, is important, even if it was crucial for the seed. That being said, it does seem like signaling is kind of crucial here. And so like,

• 36:26Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 36:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, it's when we're in a moment like this, you know, I think it's important for people to talk about where they stand. And when, when, you know, when you do have that association, when you have taken that money, you know, it shouldn't be that hard. I mean, the, the money makes a level of difficulty, but I also think that like, the money adds a level of difficulty, but it shouldn't be that hard to come out and say, hey, wait a second, this is, this is wrong, what's happening? And that, and that signal is crucially important because, you know, if people like Yuri stay silent, then you might have some sort of belief that, you know, the war has broader support over the world than it does. But when everybody, including Yuri are coming up and saying, hey, this, this war is wrong,

• 37:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  I think that matters a lot.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I'll be honest, I think the statement from Yuri was stronger than I expected. I sort of thought he would leave it at the first statement, which was, you know, enough to get reporters off his back and, uh, and, you know, at least that's why he's saying something like war is terrible, you know, maybe it could be a, or, you know, a Rorschach test and people could read into what they wanted. In some ways, it was, maybe this, maybe I'm giving Yuri too much credit now. In some ways, I thought it was brave to release it.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Because you are sort of severing ties, I think, when you, when you press, you know, when you press publish in there. And, you know, the fact that it's coming from Yuri matters in a way that like, you know, honestly, like these like corporate statements from like old Navy, like who, you know, who cares what old Navy thinks about?

• 37:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's what I'm trying to say, yeah.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  The war in Ukraine, but like, like, you know, the significance there is, is minimal. But the significance of, you know, at least an oligarch connected business leader saying that, I think actually does matter, at least for, for, you know, the signaling that you're talking about, you know, does it actually matter for, you know, convincing Putin not to do it? Like, I mean, in this situation, it would be, well, is Yuri going to call up Alesha Usmanov, who hasn't invested in his fund in, you know, a decade? And then say, and then he's going to call Putin? Like, clearly, we're now, I think it's possible to argue that, Yuri's ability to change the fate of history here is overstated, but it's a good signal.

• 38:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, all these signals cumulatively, I think, do make a difference, even though at this point, it might not be evident, but I think they add up.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  Can I ask you a question? What, what, what do you think of the, uh, just how big tech has responded to this, to this in general? I mean, do you think it's been, sufficient, uh, isolation of, of Russia?

• 39:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  You know, I was going to ask you about this, it was sort of a good segue. I mean, I can give, give my perspective on it, but like, it is interesting to see so many in the tech world pull out of Russia this way, uh, like Apple, for instance, shutting down its retail stores there, but operating freely in, in China. And I'm not saying China is, you know, killing on the same level as Russia is, but like, there are definite human rights abuses going on in China. So why is Tim Cook, you know, making calls to Xi Jinping and talking about how they can work on this great partnership, but also at the same time? You know, pulling out of Russia and and I wonder whether this is, you know, whether

• 39:44Alex Kantrowitz?

  there's ideological consistency or opportunism and public relations stuff that's going on there. Because until some of these actions are taken across the board, to me, it's kind of hard, you know, to be take to take them seriously. Now, with Facebook, it's interesting. Facebook this week was named an extremist organization by Russia. So, you know, it hasn't really been in their court. It's actually been Russia, you know, taking action against this platform that enables. And I know it's like people might laugh at this, but free speech, you know, and clearly Russia doesn't want, you know, that to happen. And so now they're going to outlaw Facebook or or, you know, designate it as extremists and then put restrictions on on the company. But yeah, I I really do wonder when it comes to some of these tech companies that will

• 40:28Alex Kantrowitz?

  like happily, you know, pull out of Russia when, you know, in this moment, not that I'm saying they're wrong to have done that, but I wonder like, where is the consistency when it comes to stuff like doing business in in other places with human rights abuses?

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, who who says a corporation has to be consistent?

• 40:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, they don't, but we we can call them out here and especially company like Apple that tells us about how great it is all the time. You know, maybe we should hold their their feet to the fire a little bit and say, hey, what what's what's really at the heart of this company?

• 41:02Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, look, I mean, I think a part of the the difference between, you know, between China and Russia, to say nothing of the difference in, you know, human rights abuses or otherwise is like, it's just a reflection of capitalism, which is that these companies are much more dependent on on China than they are in Russia. So it is, this goes to a thing a moment ago about kind of venture capital firms. It is easy to be courageous and put out, you know, a fiery statement when you do very little business in this country. Like, I mean, you would know better than I would, Alex, but, you know, Apple is far more dependent on China than it is on Russia. So these companies that are pulling stores, like, okay, thank you, Old Navy for, you

• 41:46Speaker 02

  know, your your courage here, but this is not affecting the P and L in a way that

• 41:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  Exactly.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Real courage on issue like China would take.

• 41:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, especially now that the ruble has tamed, like, you know, and the Russian economy is, I mean, partially due to these moves, but the Russian economy wasn't going to support these companies in a way that, you know, a country like China can.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 42:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  So I, you know, there's one thing that I want to ask you as we come towards the end here, which is that you've mentioned a couple of times that the Russian oligarch money doesn't usually leave the Russian financial system. I find that interesting because the symbol that we have of the oligarchs is that, you know, this is the way that the money is, you know, whatever, like washed or laundered, you know, from some of the stuff. I don't think those are the right words, but that's what people refer to them as. But like this is, you know, the oligarch money going to Europe is sort of like everyone seems to have this belief that actually the Russian money is making its way out of Russia, out of the Russian government into the hands of the oligarchs and from the hands of the oligarchs into European societies largely. But that's not the case.

• 42:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  So can you elaborate on that a bit?

• 42:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think there could be a good debate about what, you know, how easy precisely it is to do this, but, um, you know, and certainly what I'm kind of overgeneralizing over decades of Russian capital flow. But, you know, it is not like, you know, if you are an investor in New York City, it's not like, you know, placing an investment in a startup in, you know, Ohio. It's a little bit harder to get money, uh, to obviously to create money in Russia. This is again, not a, you know, 100% Adam Smith engineered free market. Uh, and then to get the money out, um, is not as easy as it looks. Um, I'm not the world's expert on that, but, um, it is not, uh, I think the question is

• 43:39Speaker 02

  just how difficult is it? And does it necessarily require some kind of wink and nod from, uh, you know, Putin and his cronies to get the money out? Or, or, because in that case, then you would argue that every dollar is dirty, uh, if it required, uh, at least a little bit of, of, uh, blessing from, uh, the Russian government. But if you, if you believe that Russia is more of a free market economy than maybe I'm giving you credit for, uh, you know, then in this situation, then maybe every dollar is not kind of a piece of, of comprimade or a piece of, uh, of an ignoble fortune, that it's just another Russian guy with a dollar to spend.

• 44:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  Didn't the Russian oligarchs make some sort of mistake by putting so much money into the global financial system, given that it could have, you know, as we're seeing, it can easily just disappear? I mean, even Russia had like a good chunk of its financial reserves elsewhere. So I'm curious if there was a mistake, like not, yeah, like a tactical mistake made there.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  I mean, clearly, they should have just, you know, buried it in a, in a like small shuttle in a, in somewhere in like, you know, Ukraine and could have just gotten on the way out the door. No, there is no, I cut that, that's stupid.

• 45:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  I'm leaving that in, Teddy. We're not making

• 45:06Speaker 02

  I don't even understand it. Yes, you know, the, the, building these ostentatious yachts that are just, you know, begging to be seized purely for the optics, public relations plunder by the oligarch set that I will not be your

• 45:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  Not even a, not even a public relations, but like a strategical, a strategic error.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  I mean, like

• 45:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  Because it left their, their finances vulnerable.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  You know, Alex, if they had invested in big technology, you would not forfeit their shares to the US government or Russian government.

• 45:37Alex Kantrowitz?

  Are we just at the part of the, the podcast where you rag on me, honestly?

• 45:42Speaker 02

  If, if they had invested, you know, in Puck, I think we really would have been, uh, it could have been a win-win. But unfortunately, Puck was created several years after the liberalization of the Russian economy. So

• 45:55Alex Kantrowitz?

  I see. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. We're not taking any outside investment in big technology, just FYI.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Rubles, dollars.

• 46:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  None of it. No, none. Only advertisements. What, what is gonna, is there any implication to the global financial system here? Do you think that, you know, people will become more wary of, of putting their dollars offshore? Or is this just sort of a unique case?

• 46:22Speaker 02

  I do not think so. Um, look, there is a, uh,

• 46:28Speaker 02

  I do not think that this will materially change kind of the way in which assets move around the world. Look, the, the kind of kleptocrats, not just in Russia, but in any of these kind of less democratic economies,

• 46:44Speaker 02

  sort of play, uh, choose your own adventure when it comes to the ways in which their assets and frankly, their entire lives are structured. Um, there's a good book called Moneyland by Oliver Bello that came out three or four years ago, um, a reporter in London who sort of wrote about, uh, Moneyland, um, which was this, you know, kind of vague idea and a construct where, you know, if you're a wealthy gazillionaire, you know, you don't only choose, uh, where your assets are parked, but you might choose where your citizenship is from, right? You'll choose to incorporate your company in this country

• 47:23Speaker 02

  or that country because you're sort of on a maximalist, uh, adventure to structure your life in the most cost-effective, permissive and sort of liberal way possible. Um, so that's why you see countries like Switzerland most prominently, but also, you know, Iowa man or Jersey or in the United States, uh, my home state of Delaware, um, people will, that are wealthy can kind of have the luxury of maximizing their life to enjoy all of the world's riches. And, you know, who's to say that you need to be Russian, um, with your kind of assets in London? Why not be, uh, a Cypriot and, you know,

• 48:03Speaker 02

  have Cyp- Cyp- right Cyprus citizenship and keep your homes in America or in Bermuda or in Panama or wherever your heart desires. And ultimately the world is pretty, uh, interconnected by this point and lots of these countries, it's in their national interest, you know, Alex, you were in El Salvador recently, right? Where people are obsessed with Bitcoin. People, countries that are small especially, it's in their national interests to, uh, do what is best for, uh, their economy, which often means kind of having permissive laws that encourage investment, um, whether it's in Bitcoin in El Salvador or anything else, uh, or in Delaware. Um, so ultimately I think the goose is cooked here

• 48:47Speaker 02

  and that the world is so interconnected that Wealthy oligarchs or kleptocrats or American billionaires can take advantage of each individual country's laws on individual matters. And you know, this Russian sort of freeze and isolation will probably prove to be an exception.

• 49:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  You, you mentioned Bitcoin, and I have to ask you about it. I actually had a question written down, and it was just Bitcoin, question mark. But I really wonder why this hasn't led to, you know, a greater flow of money into Bitcoin. I would imagine that most of the world's rich, richest people want, want to put themselves inside, you know, a permissionless currency that could be sanctioned free or harder to sanction than this stuff in central banks or in banks in general.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  It's interesting. I mean, I mean, the, the kind of the crypto angle in this story for me has been, has been sort of the philanthropic response. You're seeing lots of assets come through crypto, lots of crypto philanthropy. I think this is kind of the first moment that we're seeing, you know, the crypto nerds using all of the tools in their crypto toolkit to get money into a place like Ukraine where it's hard to get money right now. And this is definitely a new world order. But you're, you're totally right. If you were a Russian oligarch, just putting that shit on a USB drive and calling it a day would be nice, right?

• 50:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, I mean, from that person's perspective, it would be better. But there hasn't been an influx into Bitcoin at all. In fact, I think the price has just been

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 50:28Alex Kantrowitz?

  has been down since the, since the invasion. Oh, no, it's up slightly. So, all right. Last question for you. You cover billionaires extensively. Like we mentioned earlier, we saw Bernie Sanders try to brand, you know, rich people in America as oligarchs, the baseball oligarchs. Do you think that this newly awakened

• 50:51Speaker 02

  To pronounce oligarchs.

• 50:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yes. Do you think this newly awakened consciousness about oligarchs will lead to any change in terms of like, the political football that is billionaires in the United States?

• 51:06Speaker 02

  It's a good question. I mean, to some extent, this has like,

• 51:11Speaker 02

  You know, like, there's a lot of patriotism flying around right now, right? Um, you know, I was, uh, walking in my neighborhood earlier today and I just saw like a Ukrainian flag on like a random apartment building in Nob Hill. Um, I don't know, I don't know what story there is. Um, and to some extent, I think this, this, this crisis is made, not to get too, uh, uh, to wax too jingoistic here, but, um, I think it's made some people like feel like the American economy is a beautiful thing and American democracy is a beautiful thing, um, which might make people, uh, less sort of in favor of, of kind of economies more like Russia where, you know, billionaires are, are, I guess in some ways that they're more entrenched,

• 51:54Speaker 02

  but you know, it's also a less kind of, uh, rigidly laissez faire economy, or at least has been historically. So I don't really know. I mean, I, I do believe that the situation in the U S is different than, uh, than Bernie Sanders is making it out to be and that there is, um, clearly inequality, uh, and substantial inequality, but it is not an oligarchy here in the United States. Um, you know, maybe it's, has oligarchic elements, but it is not an oligarchy. And I think the real kind of, uh, you know, telling or kind of decisive moment in, in America will be just how this inequality that has been growing by, uh, the year, how this gets resolved.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, I was talking with a wealth manager earlier today and, um, you know, someone who represents, you know, people with hundreds of millions of dollars and assets and like, we were just sort of going back and forth on this very question, Alex, about like, when do the pitchforks come and, you know, and what flanks are the pitchforks arranged and what kind of the American inequality ends up bearing out? Um, I don't think it's going to end up bearing out in, you know, sort of a, uh, despotic, uh, you know, Putin-esque, uh, invasion of another country, but clearly there's like the simmering resentment in the United States that, you know, Bernie gives voice to, but, but.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  It's not going to end well. And then you gotta think something's gotta give eventually. No?

• 53:28Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, look, I don't know where it's gonna go, but my prediction on this one in particular is that we start to see the word oligarch used as a label for billionaires in the United States. And obviously from, from the left. And I think that's only good a ramp. I think Bernie likes how it's gone so far. So there will be more.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  The oligarchs are taking over. I actually do a good Bernie impression.

• 53:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  I was about to say that was terrible.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  I do, I do, I do a good, I still a good Obama, but um, that's for the Patreon only.

• 54:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's right.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  Only, only, that's for the Puck subscribers out there. You get the Obama impression for only uh, $9.99 a month. Sign up for Puck and you can get a sweet Obama impression on your voicemail. Like, wait, wait, don't tell me.

• 54:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, look, you know, I think that's a great way to leave listeners hanging. You know, I think that we deliver the goods and then just, just drop this massive cliffhanger at the end. Teddy, where could people find your work and where can people sign up to read your stories at Puck?

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Sure. So I guess the best URL is to just go to puck, P U C K dot news. And then just wind your way over to the newsletters page. And what I write is called the stratosphere. It's also in my Twitter bio, at Teddy Schleifer. And you can find it right in my, in my bio. And that's also an easy way to sign it, find it. I'm very, I'm very online, very around. And I think if you are interested in the oligarchy, the ascendant oligarchy, the striving oligarchy, I'm happy to be your narrator of this world.

• 55:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  Amazing, Teddy. And any shout outs you want to give? Shout out to Rooney, maybe?

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. My cat is a big, big, big technology listener, really. Since, since the early days and shout out to, shout out to you, Alex. I'm a long time listener, first time caller.

• 55:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  Great to be on the pod. It's great to have you. Thank you, Teddy Schleifer, for coming on the show with us. Thank you, Nick Goatney, for editing and mastering the audio. Amazing job as always, and thanks for the quick turnaround. Thank you, LinkedIn, for having me as part of your podcast network. Very exciting. First month comes to a close and more good stuff to come. And thanks to all of you, the listeners. Appreciate you being back here. Every week, if this is your first time on the show, hit subscribe. We do these every Wednesday with shows with tech insiders and outside agitators. If you're a longtime listener, a rating goes a long way. So you can rate us on Apple Podcasts, now on Spotify. And we'll be back next week. And until then, take care.

• 56:16Speaker 03

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