Elizabeth Smart

Elizabeth Smart (Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart) is a child safety advocate and founder of the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. Elizabeth joins the Armchair Expert to discuss why advocacy became her opportunity to let other victims and survivors know they’re not alone, growing up not thinking her life would be in any way extraordinary, and details she remembers of her kidnapping at knifepoint in the middle of the night at age 14. Elizabeth and Dax talk about how her perspective on her experience has evolved now being a parent herself, the twisted, manipulative history of her abductors, and the ways her brain grasped for hope in such a dire situation. Elizabeth explains how she outsmarted her captors leading to her rescue, her challenges with the justice system, and her approach to protecting her family today. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. Happy 1,000th episode.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Can you even believe it?

• 0:11Dax Shepard?

  I can't believe it. I think of it very much like AA, which is like you can't stay sober for 30 years, but you can stay sober for a day.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:20Dax Shepard?

  And then you can kind of blink and it is 30 years.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:22Dax Shepard?

  It's like if you told us like, okay, man, you're gonna, you're gonna do 1,000. I'd be like, that's too, we can't do that.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  We're not doing that.

• 0:28Dax Shepard?

  We can't, we're not capable of that.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, but look at it.

• 0:31Dax Shepard?

  And one episode at a time, we got to 1,000. That is very exciting.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  I'm proud of us.

• 0:35Dax Shepard?

  Me too. And then what an incredible episode to have for our, our 1,000th. Elizabeth Smart, which, you know, I think if you were on planet Earth in 2002, you knew about Elizabeth Smart.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Even if you weren't.

• 0:50Dax Shepard?

  But you could be like me.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:52Dax Shepard?

  And knew someone was abducted, but that's where it ends.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:55Dax Shepard?

  This story is so unbelievable in so many ways. And there's an incredible doc out now on Netflix called Kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. And it's incredibly well-made documentary.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  This is such an interesting conversation and, and very meaningful and heavy.

• 1:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Yeah. So I'm sometime hesitant to give trigger warnings for all episodes, but boy, oh, boy, this, this one warrants a major, major, uh, trigger warning.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24Dax Shepard?

  Obviously there's abduction, there's sexual assault, there's a lot, a lot, a lot of darkness in this story. Um, but I think you, like us, will find Elizabeth Smart to be impossibly well-adjusted and driving.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Has a positive outlook.

• 1:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's remarkable.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43Dax Shepard?

  Um, so, so, so, so grateful to her for telling us her whole story. It's a hard one, uh, but it's a great episode.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  And we're thankful to the Armchairs for sticking around for 1,000 episodes.

• 1:54Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  We love you guys so much.

• 1:56Dax Shepard?

  And even the ones that came in COVID, if you're around for 500, a big high five.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  If you're around for one, we'll take you.

• 2:02Dax Shepard?

  We'll take it, we'll take it. Uh, all right. Please enjoy Elizabeth Smart.

• 2:06Speaker 01

  Hi, we're back right after the intro. This is very special because it's our 1,000th episode.

• 2:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and you wanted to commemorate it.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  I did, because it's really special and it's really rare.

• 2:18Dax Shepard?

  It is, and it only happened once. Monica, this will be the only episode that's one that you's in.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  That's right. Um, and I am very proud of us for. Just sticking to it for this long. But mostly just thankful to the arm cherries because without them, we would not be able to still be here.

• 2:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they've really hung around for a lot of them.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  They've been on the ride with us and it's so, so fun. So I want to do something special and do a little, very small, um, merch collection to celebrate the 1,000th episode. So there is a T-shirt on the site that's very fun.

• 2:56Dax Shepard?

  Requires fast math, which is.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:59Dax Shepard?

  It made me happy.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  That's for you. That's for Nax. And on the back of that shirt, it has all of the thousand guests, which is very fun.

• 3:08Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  And then there's a really fun sweatshirt and another sweatshirt too. I'm not going to give it all away, but go check it out.

• 3:14Dax Shepard?

  And a pair of engraved brass knuckles.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Nope, that's not a part of it. No, that didn't make the cut.

• 3:18Dax Shepard?

  The switchblade in there?

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Nope, that also. Nope. We're sticking with the classics, the clothes.

• 3:23Dax Shepard?

  So go to armchairexpertpod.com and go to the store and it'll be there.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  It'll be there and go ahead and get on the list and, um, you'll get your 1,000th episode merch and we're happy to have you.

• 3:35Dax Shepard?

  And on to the episode. We get support from Quince.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait.

• 3:48Dax Shepard?

  I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my season. Give me the layers, give me the boots, give me a reason to wear something other than a T-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince because fall is when your wardrobe actually has to show up. And everything at Quince is 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We're talking 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at $60.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  $60. $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing. Gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is because they go straight to the factories, they skip the middlemen and they just hand you the savings. The stuff isn't trendy. It's the kind of pieces you grab over and over because they work every time.

• 4:28Dax Shepard?

  The 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters for me are it. When I look at Steve McQueen, this man owned a couple of sweaters he wore all the time and he looks iconic.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  It's a uniform. And Quince isn't just about the clothes. They have hotel quality bedding, cookware, bath essentials, thoughtfully designed furniture. You can really go there and outfit your entire apartment or house. So if you're in need of any kind of fall refresh at home, too, same quality, same attention to detail for every corner of your life.

• 4:57Dax Shepard?

  Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. We get support from AG1. Fall is that time when your body and mind are getting ready for the winter. You're settling in, bracing for the cold. Your body's already running a deficit from the shorter days and broken sleep patterns. You don't want a nutrient deficit stacked on top of that, too.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  That's where your AG1 routine earns its spot. It's not fixing your sleep or your alarm time. It's giving your body what it needs so the dark mornings don't tank you before you even start. One scoop, cold water every morning before anything else.

• 5:45Dax Shepard?

  AG1 Next Gen has 75 plus ingredients, vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, superfoods, backed by four separate gold standard clinical trials. Key nutrient levels improved with three months of consistent use.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  That's the part people miss. It's not a one day fix. It's what happens when you stay consistent.

• 6:04Dax Shepard?

  It's an easy, everyday thing. I've added it to my morning routine and I'm going to tell you, I actually love the taste of it. It's like Pavlovian. I drink it and I know, mm, I'm going to get that little vitamin buzz.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Well, that's also the thing. When you do it first thing in the morning, you already feel kind of self-esteem because you're like, I already did something good for myself.

• 6:21Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Go to drinkag1.com/dax and for a limited time, get a free immunity bundle, including a bottle of omega three fish oil and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/dax. And after checkout, be sure to let them know that Armchair Expert sent you.

• 7:03Dax Shepard?

  Hi, welcome. You wanna shake? Hi, I'm a hugger. Hi, welcome.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  I shook, so I set the bar.

• 7:09Dax Shepard?

  You always do that to me and then I look like a pervert.

• 7:13Dax Shepard?

  What nicknames did you grow up with?

• 7:15Speaker 01

  No, Beth, or Bit. We have a friend named Bit, which I think is so cute.

• 7:19Dax Shepard?

  I loved a girl across the street from me growing up named Betsy. I think her name was Elizabeth.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  I could see. I mean, I've heard people go by Betsy.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a lot, Lizzy.

• 7:30Dax Shepard?

  Sky is the limit with Elizabeth.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  It is. But my mom was always like, "You are Elizabeth. You will go by Elizabeth." And so that's just what I've always been.

• 7:40Dax Shepard?

  Now, I'm lazy. If someone has more than two syllables in your name, I'm like, "We gotta get down to one." Maybe because I'm Dax.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're just projecting.

• 7:48Dax Shepard?

  And Moni, I'd prefer just Mon.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  That's two.

• 7:50Dax Shepard?

  Probably.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  You could've done Mon. Mon's very popular.

• 7:53Dax Shepard?

  Monica.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Too much.

• 7:55Dax Shepard?

  That's a lot.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Too much.

• 7:56Dax Shepard?

  Is Elizabeth three?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Elizabeth. Elizabeth four. But Elizabeth is such a pretty name. I understand why not wanting to shorten it up. I like the name Elizabeth.

• 8:06Dax Shepard?

  When is the last time you did an interview?

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Right before.

• 8:09Dax Shepard?

  Right before. Okay, you came from one. Are you exhausted?

• 8:12Speaker 02

  No, I'm good.

• 8:13Dax Shepard?

  Okay. What was the other one?

• 8:15Speaker 02

  It was just in-house at Netflix.

• 8:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, sure. I watched Kidnapped last night, and I made a really kind of questionable decision. I was like, "I'm gonna watch it with my daughters."

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Oh, I was wondering.

• 8:25Dax Shepard?

  So I watched it with my 11 and 12-year-old, and we all snuggled on the couch, and ultimately, I'm really glad I did. It started a lot of conversations that I think are really good to have, and they got to see me ball at the end excessively, and they love that. The end fucked me up. I'll get to specifically what that was about it. But I guess first and foremost, I was aware of all this, and yet, at the same time, not. This is 2002. So I was... Twenty seven. I just wasn't dialed into everything that was going on. But you and Monica are the exact same age virtually.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:03Dax Shepard?

  Two months apart.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  I was very aware of it.

• 9:06Dax Shepard?

  Did this give rise to your unnatural fear of being kidnapped? Would you credit Elizabeth?

• 9:12Speaker 01

  So I think I already had it. I don't feel like people these days talk about kidnappings a lot. But it was being talked about back then. It was like a fear.

• 9:24Dax Shepard?

  Do you know anything about the statistics? Is it more or less? Does it change?

• 9:28Speaker 02

  I couldn't tell you if it was more or less now. But I know a person goes missing about every seventy seconds.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  And every nine minutes, that person's a child.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 9:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God. Every seventy seconds. So that means by the end of this, a hundred and ten people have gone missing is crazy. Let me ask you first. Your comfort level with talking about it seems high. But I definitely wanted to talk before we got into stuff. I would never want to be going in any direction or anything that you wouldn't want to go in. But am I right? You seem pretty comfortable.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  No, you could ask me whatever you want.

• 10:06Dax Shepard?

  OK.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  You can also tell us if you're like, actually, I don't want to talk about that.

• 10:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  I've been talking about it a long time.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  You can ask away. Also, I have learned over the years how impactful stories are. We can sit here and chat about statistics. Actually, I'm not that great with numbers. I forget them, kind of easy. But I remember stories. If someone's story is really meaningful or impactful, I'll remember that a lot better than if it's just like a fact. And so I guess for me, I also saw this as an opportunity to reach out to other survivors, other victims, to let them know that they're not alone. Because, again, I didn't feel like I heard people talk about rape or sexual violence or abuse as a kid. And I definitely didn't hear anyone saying, well, that happened to me.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  I felt a lot of shame and embarrassment around what had happened. And it took a long time for me to get over that. And then as I started kind of in the advocacy world, I mean, it was the same story. Everywhere I turned, so much shame, so much embarrassment, so much guilt, even though they're all victims. And so I also just felt like this was an incredible opportunity to be on a stage that I could never imagine being on.

• 11:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  A universal one. Yeah, and just be able to hopefully reach out to other people to let them know they're not alone.

• 11:35Dax Shepard?

  So personally, and I do not want to compare at all apples to oranges because mine's far less severe. But I was sexually molested and I talked about it quite openly on here and some other places. And I have my own baggage with all the things that come with that. And similarly, I wasn't having a lot of people come up to me and go like, me too. But I would say over the years, that has happened more and more and more. And it's a nice feeling, I think.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  You're alone and scared. And actually, maybe this is a hot take, but I think one of the saddest things I see is that when someone dies or heaven forbid is murdered, that's it. Their life is done. But when I see too many survivors of sexual violence, they're alive, but they stop living.

• 12:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  And that loss of life, I find heartbreaking.

• 12:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because they have to be present for their own death in a way on earth.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So let's go before 2001. Let's start in 87. You have what seems at least from the doc to have a pretty idyllic childhood up to 2002.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Where are we?

• 12:48Dax Shepard?

  Salt Lake City.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Salt Lake City. Okay, yeah, great.

• 12:52Dax Shepard?

  Mormon family and in a very nice Federal Heights. Is that the name of it? So a very, very nice affluent area of Salt Lake City.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Brothers and sisters. I'm second of six. Yeah.

• 13:04Dax Shepard?

  You rode horses?

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:06Dax Shepard?

  Played the harp?

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:07Dax Shepard?

  You have a bachelor's degree in playing the harp, yeah?

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Well, I studied it.

• 13:11Dax Shepard?

  You studied it, okay.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  I actually didn't graduate. I actually had two professors pull me out of class one day and they just said, Elizabeth, what are you doing? Why are you here? Really? And I was like, what? And they're like, you don't need a degree for what you do. We'll still be here in five, 10, 50 years. Go do what you're doing and come back when you are ready to be done with it. And I was like, wait, you're my teachers, I'm pretty sure. You're the ones supposed to be encouraging me not to drop out of school.

• 13:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and they're incentivized for you to stay financially.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  That's how you know it's real good advice. Ended up following it and I don't have my degree, but I don't regret it.

• 13:54Dax Shepard?

  So prior to 2002, what kind of sights had you set for your life?

• 14:00Speaker 02

  I don't want to sound like I didn't care about what happened in my life, but I couldn't imagine that my life would be that remarkable or that interesting. I mean, I thought it would just kind of be run of the mill. Like I'd go to school, finish high school, go to college, eventually get married, have kids, maybe teach harp lessons out of the house. And that would pretty much be it. So I didn't think anything could ever happen to me.

• 14:26Dax Shepard?

  So you shared a room with your sister?

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Mary Catherine.

• 14:30Dax Shepard?

  So Mary was nine and you were 14?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:34Dax Shepard?

  And you shared a bedroom or an actual bed?

• 14:36Speaker 02

  We shared an actual bed. Oh.

• 14:38Dax Shepard?

  Yes, so what happens that night as you're sleeping?

• 14:42Speaker 02

  You know, the night started off totally normal. I mean, it was a little bit chaotic because my grandpa had just died, my mom's dad had just died, and it was the end of the school year. And there's a lot of us, right? Yeah. There's a lot of things going on. Was it a weekday? Sorry, I don't know why that matters to me. No, it was a weekday. Like, the next day was a school day. It was still like a pretty normal day. There was nothing bad about it. There were no, I don't know, feelings of foreboding or anything. Yeah, no omens. I remember just going to bed and the next thing I remember was waking up to a man standing above me, knife up my neck, telling me to get up and get out of bed. Don't make a sound, go with him.

• 15:23Dax Shepard?

  How detailed is your memory of all that?

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's pretty detailed.

• 15:27Dax Shepard?

  For all of us, this hasn't happened to you. Try to imagine yourself in that situation, which I guarantee your imagination is not gonna do it justice. But first thoughts?

• 15:35Speaker 02

  You're like, this is a dream?

• 15:37Dax Shepard?

  Or horror or?

• 15:38Speaker 02

  No, just this can't actually be real. Right. And I mean, I remember as a kid, I chose to sleep closest to the door because I was like, oh, if anything ever happened, like it's my responsibility to watch over my little sister. I'm older than her, so I'm gonna sleep next to the door. Never actually thinking anything could happen. Right. The movie that scared me most as a kid was The Neverending Story. Oh, yeah, sure.

• 16:03Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it scared you?

• 16:04Speaker 02

  Oh, I hated it.

• 16:05Dax Shepard?

  You hated a tray with a huge dog or?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  I mean, honestly, I haven't watched it since then, so I couldn't even tell you.

• 16:12Dax Shepard?

  Wow, it's a beautiful story about a little boy on an adventure.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  I just remember being terrified when I watched it as a kid. Yeah. And I remember thinking that was more likely to pop out of my nightmares than to have someone break in. That was never even a thought, that someone could break into my home.

• 16:28Dax Shepard?

  And so I'd imagine there's enormous confusion about what's happening. And then you're very quickly on the move out of the house, obviously.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, out the front door, out the window. So I was on the top floor of my house. I was probably in like the highest point of my house. So we had to obviously come out of my room, come down through the big flight of stairs in the middle of my house. And then we went out through the back kitchen door.

• 16:54Dax Shepard?

  And do you remember on that walk, hoping someone would hear you guys?

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. And then because they didn't, I remember then thinking, because nobody woke up, is it because he killed them already?

• 17:07Dax Shepard?

  Sure, yeah, how could you know?

• 17:09Speaker 02

  Is that why? Cause I mean, it felt like whenever my older brother and I tried to sneak down to see what presents were for Christmas, my parents always caught us.

• 17:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, right, right.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  So how did they catch us then and then not wake up now?

• 17:23Dax Shepard?

  And of course, he explicitly said, if you scream, I'm gonna kill you. If you don't, I'm not gonna hurt you.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:31Dax Shepard?

  So I love how the doc is structured. It's a very, very compelling story because we really are gonna talk with your sister for the most part of the beginning of this story, which is apropos because she's the only person who has any idea what has happened.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  So she heard this go on or was she sleeping through it? Also, did he have a mask on? Sorry, I have so many detailed questions about this.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  She heard it, but she didn't open her eyes like wide because she didn't want him to know she was awake.

• 18:01Dax Shepard?

  You tried to pretend you're invisible at that moment?

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, but she said she was like kinda looking through her eyelashes to try to see him. So I mean, she gave the police a description of him, but when I later read the description of him and then obviously knowing what he looked like, I was like, that's not right. But like if you're a nine-year-old girl, like

• 18:22Speaker 01

  And it's dark in the room.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Just like looking through your eyelashes, Ham, would you?

• 18:27Speaker 01

  No, I don't think it's possible to register it.

• 18:30Dax Shepard?

  And nine years old. I mean, that is so, so tiny to be giving a detailed account of what happened.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:37Dax Shepard?

  But the police obviously questioned her and the first really compelling thing is that she recognized the voice.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Oh, she said she knew the voice. She couldn't place it immediately.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  But she knew the voice, like she recognized the voice.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Once you were out of the house, I guess she ran into your parents' room.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  So we have an alarm system or we had, none of us live in that house anymore. But we had an alarm system in the house. And so she was waiting to hear the alarm system go off.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  To know whether or not it was safe for her to get up and go wake my parents. But as luck would have it, for whatever reason, I feel like someone explained to me once, and I could be totally wrong, but when an alarm system goes off, it's because there's a magnet set in the frame and a magnet set in the door. And when they disconnect, that alerts the system.

• 19:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, breaks the circuit.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Sounds like you know what you're talking about. I don't.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  I think the magnets had fallen out of the door frame.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  What?

• 19:34Speaker 02

  And none of us knew about it. And so when the back door opened, it never went off. So my sister was lying in bed and she never heard it go off. And so she waited and waited and waited. I think she probably waited about 45 minutes before she went and told my parents. But like, that would have been Terrifying for her and would have taken a lot of courage for her because for all she knew, we were still in the house.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 20:00Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and if she gets up, now she's next.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Or he could kill you. I mean, there's just a million bad options.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Ugh.

• 20:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's unimaginable. What is painful to watch, but of course, absolutely required. And you, again, you would know, you work in this space. Sadly, most of these cases are family-related. I mean, like a pretty high percentage.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, really high percentage.

• 20:22Dax Shepard?

  Obviously, the police have to begin trying to clear your family. And there's a lot of you.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, there is.

• 20:31Dax Shepard?

  Also, there's press. So what is it like for you? Because of course, you were not present for any of this, but when you have since seen everything they went through for the next few days after your disappearance, what are your thoughts?

• 20:45Speaker 02

  I mean, it depends when you ask me. Like, when I first was rescued and I saw glimpses of it, initially, I was just like, you guys didn't have it that bad. You're all there together. Like, you're not alone with, like, these monsters. The bad things aren't happening to you. You're on the good end. Now, as a parent myself, I'd gladly go through it again to make sure it didn't happen to my kids.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  And so now, as a parent, I don't know whose was worse, but I know I would do whatever it took to protect my children.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:18Dax Shepard?

  Well, as a fellow dad, watching your father speak about your primary job is to protect your kids and your little girls, and the amount of shame and guilt and self-flagellation, I'm sure, about failing at that job was rough. But additionally, Uncle Tom's a character. She is an uncle. Is he the oldest?

• 21:41Speaker 02

  He is, yeah.

• 21:42Dax Shepard?

  He feels like the oldest. He got wily in these interviews. I felt blessed by the fact that I hadn't followed all the twists and turns. So really, if I wasn't interviewing you, and my children kept asking, is she alive? And I'm like, she has to be. I'm interviewing her.

• 21:56Dax Shepard?

  But beyond that, I don't know. So stop asking me questions. I don't know entering the doc.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  I forget a lot too. I think a lot of people forget.

• 22:03Dax Shepard?

  I entered the doc not knowing if it was a family member. I'm along for the ride, the way America was. And I gotta be honest, I'm watching these interviews and I'm watching Uncle Tom. And Uncle Tom goes on this kind of weird path about how everyone is flawed and everyone has secrets. And I'm like, what the fuck is this guy talking about?

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Sounds like you.

• 22:22Dax Shepard?

  It's something I would say for sure. I'll take this moment to be honest about the reality, the complexity of life. What? So we're watching that and my kids are like, oh my God, he did.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:33Dax Shepard?

  I know, it seems crazy. And then of course, it takes America by storm. And so you have all these different pundits now evaluating every sentence that's said.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  First of all, my uncle is one of the best people you could actually meet.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:50Dax Shepard?

  That comes out in the wash. By the end of the doc, you're like, I fucking love Uncle Tom.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  I mean, all my uncles are the best people. And I believe it was after that interview because sleep deprivation was at an all time high. That family members had to enact certain rules before family members went before the media.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  So they didn't come off sounding that way.

• 23:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  You need like media training, but you're going through this crazy fear and loss.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  I mean, it was the most intense, worst thing my family had ever experienced.

• 23:24Dax Shepard?

  He says later in this doc, he had been awake for about five and a half days.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:29Dax Shepard?

  At the point, because he also took a polygraph that was inconclusive, whatever that means.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  We had Amanda Knox on and similar, you end up doing things and saying things because you're just being put through the wringer.

• 23:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you've been interrogated for 36 hours and then you're expected to give a cohesive.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Be normal.

• 23:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. So we're watching that and then my kids are like, he did it, right? And I'm like, well, he's in the doc. So no, I would presume he'd be in, like the weird detective we were trying to do. But then you're also seeing all of these things that really end up frustrating me when I see investigations. And look, these are people are not sent down from heaven. They're human beings doing the best they can. They're scared. Everyone's scared. They're.

• 24:10Dax Shepard?

  Being relied on to have the answers and they don't have the answers. But some of these immediate things that are coming out are very frustrating, which is the attacker put a chair against the wall and then cut a screen and then climbed through a window.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  That's how he got in.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:23Dax Shepard?

  And the detectives look at this and say, there'd be a scuff on the wall.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, this is.

• 24:28Dax Shepard?

  These kind of like, I know this would happen. Those things are very frustrating.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:34Dax Shepard?

  And I suppose that is how they work, right? You're just trying to knock down things that don't make sense. But at the same time, it's like, what are we talking about? And then people saying your father, Ed, on TV in the interviews, didn't have real tears when he was crying. Like this micro examination of what someone's supposed to be doing.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  I can guarantee, I don't have to be there to know he would have been crying. He cries every time he gets emotional.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:58Dax Shepard?

  You daughters do that to us.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  I mean, Jesus.

• 25:01Dax Shepard?

  I didn't cry before I had them and now I can't stop.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  But also, even if he didn't, the fact that that then means is a problem. We all had these ideas based on movies.

• 25:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, how you're supposed to react.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  In trauma, and it's like everyone acts differently in trauma and you can't just make an assumption. It's really bad.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:22Dax Shepard?

  Here's my great curiosity now that I know the end. So the whole town activates. It gets an enormous amount of coverage and really everyone shows up to try to find you. There is a point where they bring up the Basset Hound dog and it gets the scent of you and it leads them for a very long time in your neighborhood, but then it stops. Do you have an explanation for that?

• 25:42Speaker 02

  I always wondered that too. I always thought they'll bring dogs because I never got into a car and they said the scent stopped at the street, but right across the street, it's like a pretty popular trailhead.

• 25:56Dax Shepard?

  Go up it.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  And they just said it just stopped, which I don't understand.

• 26:02Dax Shepard?

  And so they conclude, oh, they went to here, got in a car, now the car drove away and that's why the scent's gone.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  And then I remember, I mean, it rained. Not like a huge downpour, but it rained the second or third day that I was kidnapped. And I remember thinking, oh, maybe that washed the scent away. But then, I assume this is correct, but I'm not an expert. I asked a dog handler years later, while it rained, did it wash the scent away? And they're like, no, that actually enhances the scent.

• 26:28Dax Shepard?

  Like reactivates it?

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:30Dax Shepard?

  That kind of makes sense.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  And I was just like, okay, well, I never got in a car.

• 26:34Dax Shepard?

  Well, once we find out in this doc where you are, it's absolutely maddening. That's a heartbreaking bit of information. You were not that far.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  I wasn't, but I hiked back up there just this past October. And it is not easy to get to. Like, I've run marathons, that's harder. Oh, wow.

• 26:51Dax Shepard?

  Really? When you were on that walk, were you even aware of how hard it was? Or you're probably just such in a state of shock?

• 26:58Speaker 02

  I had like so much adrenaline just pumping through me. I had no idea just how far back we were. I thought I was a lot closer to the city than I actually was. Which, I mean, again, when you think, oh, three and a half miles, three and three-fourths of a mile, that's not that far, but straight back into the mountains? That's a decent distance.

• 27:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's like 20 miles on flat ground, maybe.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Feels about like it. So you walked the whole time in silence? Pretty much. I remember asking him a few times, why are you doing this? Where are you taking me? Why are you taking? I remember asking him questions, but he'd always kind of shut me down. He'd say something like, oh, I'm taking you hostage, or, oh, we'll be revealed in due course. Oh.

• 27:42Dax Shepard?

  Was he already?

• 27:43Speaker 02

  How cryptic.

• 27:44Dax Shepard?

  In biblical speech? Or was that later?

• 27:47Speaker 02

  I'd say he was in and out.

• 27:48Dax Shepard?

  Will you tell Monica this horrendous thing you had to ask him and why?

• 27:52Speaker 02

  Well, I asked him if he was gonna rape and kill me. You're like, what is this about? Yeah. We didn't have enemies. Never started a feud or hurt anyone. But you didn't recognize him? Not immediately, but I did recognize him once we started getting up further into the mountains. And I was like, why are you doing this? My parents tried to help you.

• 28:13Dax Shepard?

  But you had asked if he was gonna rape and kill you because this is so heartbreaking, but also so pragmatic of you, even at 14. You wanted it to happen close to the house if he was gonna do it, so your parents could find you.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  It's not that different from here. There are mountain lions, there are coyotes. And as a 14 year old, that's a pretty active imagination. And I was like, oh, my gosh, if we get far up here, these coyotes or mountain lions are gonna tear apart my body and then I'll just vanish and no one will ever find me, which it could have happened. Just this last time I hiked up there, I saw some entrails on the way up and that was it. Ah, animal.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, I know, I know. But still, the fact that you have to think like that.

• 28:52Dax Shepard?

  Is terribly adult kind of a thought to have. And the first few days of this, there's 40,000 leads are phoned in. So what they're trying to sift through. And ultimately, the family is cleared. How do we get to Reecey? How did he come to be a suspect?

• 29:10Speaker 02

  My parents had built the house that we were living in and they really project managed the whole thing. And my dad was in there laying tile with everyone else and painting walls and doing all the things.

• 29:23Dax Shepard?

  What line of work was your dad in?

• 29:25Speaker 02

  He was a mortgage broker. So he would contract out with people or he went to, I can't even remember exactly what it's called, but basically the Mormon church services, where they try to connect people in need with work. And they had recommended this Richard Reecey to my dad. And because it came from the church, my dad was like, oh, he's good. He must be fine. So he brought him to our house, had him working on and around the house. And neither of my parents knew that actually he was a convicted felon and he had a whole history. So when the police were asking for a list of everyone who had been to our house before, his name was on the list. And then, of course, they're like, oh, well, he's a felon.

• 30:09Dax Shepard?

  He had killed a cop in a armed robbery gone wrong. So obviously for them, they're pretty excited at that revelation. How could they not be?

• 30:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're like, it's him.

• 30:19Dax Shepard?

  And they bring him in and he's a wild dude. There's a lot of footage in the doc of them interviewing him. Again, he's also presenting as someone guilty. He's very combative. He will not explain. Your father gave him a car, right? A Cherokee?

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it was in exchange for some work instead of money. He would rather have the car. And so that was the deal, but then I'm not exactly sure on the details. But I don't know if he had completed all the work or there was something.

• 30:47Dax Shepard?

  It didn't end well.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, that they were like, he was supposed to follow through and. It was like a weirdness. I mean, he ended up stealing some of my mom's jewelry as well.

• 30:56Dax Shepard?

  That's another thing. They go to his house to arrest him and when they give a warrant to go through everything, they find stuff he's stolen from their house.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 31:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, if you're them, this is looking more and more promising.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it feels like a bullseye.

• 31:07Dax Shepard?

  And then even crazier, somehow they deduce this and I don't know how, but he had put a few hundred miles on that car that was given to him. The night of this abduction.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we never found out what it was for.

• 31:21Dax Shepard?

  He refused to tell.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  But everyone thought it was like he drove out to the west desert and buried me out there. Right. That's kind of a natural conclusion.

• 31:29Dax Shepard?

  And if you're the police, you're like, oh, my God, now we have a radius of 150 miles. Good luck.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh.

• 31:37Dax Shepard?

  And he won't tell them anything and he's really, really combative. And they decide, let's offer him an immunity deal, which is as so long as it has nothing to do with a murder or some other very serious thing. You can tell us where you drove and we won't care about the crime.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:54Dax Shepard?

  And so as that's being pitched and they're evaluating whether or not to take that opportunity, he dies in his jail cell.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  My other grandpa, my dad's dad, he was a doctor. And at the time he said Elizabeth hit him over the head and he had a brain aneurysm and that's why he died.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Wow. I'm glad you thought that, but that's not what happened. So he did. He had an aneurysm. He just like healed. What?

• 32:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And the doctor like stroke or aneurysm. I don't know if it was ever decided, but you're still missing.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  This is like a string of impossibly bad luck things to happen that nobody woke up, that the magnets on the door fell off, that this guy just dies out of nowhere. What? That's so crazy. I know, right? How was this even my life? Right.

• 32:45Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 32:50Dax Shepard?

  We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking your phone's battery before heading out, that'll get you every time. Of course, your phone dies on the way to meet someone, leaving you wandering around quietly panicking about being in the wrong spot. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North America Insurance Co. and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We are supported by Intuit TurboTax. You know that feeling when you drop your taxes off with someone and then nothing? You're just sitting there wondering if they've even started, if there's a problem, if you're getting everything you're owed. It's like

• 33:35Dax Shepard?

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• 34:14Speaker 01

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• 34:19Dax Shepard?

  If you're not going to trust me, trust the show.

• 34:20Speaker 01

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• 34:21Dax Shepard?

  Visit TurboTax.com to get matched with a TurboTax Full Service Expert today. That's TurboTax.com, only available with TurboTax Full Service Experts. Real time updates only on iOS mobile app. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 34:37Speaker 01

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• 34:47Dax Shepard?

  That's the dream. You just described one of my ideal fall nights.

• 34:52Speaker 01

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• 35:08Dax Shepard?

  Increasingly so.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  I need it. I have to have it. And I heard that you're supposed to sleep at a cold temp. For optimal sleep. It's very, very helpful.

• 35:19Dax Shepard?

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• 35:39Speaker 01

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• 35:46Dax Shepard?

  Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site wide. helixsleep.com/armchair. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. We've talked before about Rob building our website on Squarespace, and I bring it up again because it's a perfect example of what they do well. Rob had all the pieces, the content, the vision, the ideas, but he needed something to actually take all that and make it public facing. And Squarespace was that bridge. Maybe you're in the same spot. You've been developing something, a business, a skillset, a body of work,

• 36:24Dax Shepard?

  and it's been private. It's been yours. But at some point, you're ready to put it out there, and that transition from private to public can feel like a huge leap. Squarespace makes it feel like a step. Beautiful templates, built-in SEO, email campaigns, scheduling, analytics, everything you need to go from "I've been working on this" to "Here it is." Come find me all in one place, no code, no stitching together a bunch of different tools. So if you've been sitting on something and waiting for the right moment, this might be it. Head to squarespace.com slash DAX for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

• 37:10Dax Shepard?

  How long had you been gone when Reese died?

• 37:14Speaker 02

  At the four or five month mark. Oh, that long already?

• 37:19Dax Shepard?

  Gone for four or five months. And so obviously national attention's dying down. The police department's running out of people to talk to. They have this guy they thought it was it. He's dead. I don't want to say they said it was over, but kind of it was over for them. But that leaves your parents with where is she? If that's what happened, I mean, just the agony of that being the conclusion.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, everyone was like, the secret of what happened to Elizabeth is gone with Richard Reese to his grave. We will never find her. We will never know what happened. We can only assume she's dead.

• 37:56Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now tell Monica this crazy thing that happens to Mary Catherine, waiting for dad to come tuck her into bed.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  My sister, she's just randomly looking at the Guinness Book of World Records. And she said she turned to this page of this extremely muscular woman. I know this day she's like, I have no idea.

• 38:19Dax Shepard?

  The mind's weird, isn't it? That's what jogged.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  No idea, but as she's looking at this page. This muscular woman in the world. Woman. The name comes to her. No. And my dad comes in to tuck her in and she's like, Dad, I think I know who kidnapped Elizabeth. I think it was that guy Emmanuel who came to our house and did some work for you that one time.

• 38:41Dax Shepard?

  Who you guys had originally seen downtown, right?

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd only seen him once. I was out school clothes shopping with my mom at the beginning of the year. And I mean, he only saw me like one time and just that one time he's like, yep, she's the one I'm going to kidnap her.

• 38:55Dax Shepard?

  And he was a homeless guy who was preaching his own version of the scripture.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  At that point in time, he didn't preach to my mom.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Spent a lot of time talking about his twisted past. But he basically found that the best way to manipulate people and get what he wanted was through religion, or if he needed to justify something, just blame it on religion. And so he had done that for years. He'd done it to his family. When he married my other captor, that was, I think, his third wife. Then he and his third wife, they just fed off of each other. But they had both used that tactic for years and years. However, I think if you look at that time period, you know, he saw me in like September,

• 39:46Speaker 02

  October, maybe of 2001, right around 9/11. I think any form of extremism, people just pulled away from.

• 39:56Dax Shepard?

  Frowned upon.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Made people very cautious. So he had stopped wearing the robes he usually wore. And he had stopped kind of pushing that facade as much. So when my mom saw him, I mean, he was clean shaven. He had clean clothes on. He just kind of looked like a guy who had hit hard times. Not necessarily like your average homeless person. Yeah. And he didn't even ask my mom for money straight out of the gate. He asked her for work. When you were out clothes shopping? Yeah. And so my mom was like, well, I don't have any work, but you can call my husband. And he only asked for work because he saw me and wanted to find out where we lived. And so from the time he saw me back in September, October, all the way up until June,

• 40:41Speaker 02

  was when he kidnapped me. He planned it. What the fuck?

• 40:46Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so Mary Catherine knows it's a manual. And then we bring in a sketch artist and they do a sketch. They want the police to release this sketch. And they do not want to release it. I can't remember the reason they were.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  I mean, they just thought it was Richard Reesey. They just didn't think that it was this other guy who came to our house one time.

• 41:08Dax Shepard?

  And they said, if you put this out in public, then if that person does have Elizabeth, now you're in danger.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 41:17Dax Shepard?

  This is the rationale.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  I remember.

• 41:19Dax Shepard?

  But thank God, your family grew so frustrated and hopeless, I imagine.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  John Walsh from America's Most Wanted had become a huge support to my parents. So my dad had gotten pretty close with him. And my dad had told John, Mary Catherine thinks she knows who took Elizabeth. And we've gone down to the police station and we've had like a sketch artist come in and sketch this guy. She thinks that's who it is. And John was like, well, you've got to release it. And they're like, but the police don't want us to. And so actually, John went on Larry King Live back in the day, and he actually released the sketch on Larry King Live. Wow, good for him. Yeah.

• 42:01Dax Shepard?

  As it turns out, great for him.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:03Dax Shepard?

  Because pretty quickly, the brother-in-law of Emmanuel.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  In quotes, that's just did quotes.

• 42:11Dax Shepard?

  I did quotes, if you're listening, not watching. Emmanuel, in quotes, his brother-in-law, calls and says, I think I know who Emmanuel is.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  He knew that was the name that Brian Mitchell was going by.

• 42:23Dax Shepard?

  So now we know who it is, but now where are they? Okay, so now let's go back to walking. As you just said, there's a second person involved who goes by the name of.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Hepsaba. Hepsaba. Yeah.

• 42:41Dax Shepard?

  What happens when you get to the end of this three and a half mile hiking trail?

• 42:45Speaker 02

  He had said, while he was taking me up into the mountains, that we were going to his wife. And initially, when I heard that there was going to be a woman there, I was like, it's gonna be fine.

• 42:56Dax Shepard?

  I tell my kids, find a woman if you're lost.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  I know, yeah, right?

• 42:59Dax Shepard?

  Women can be crazy, too.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Now you should tell them, find a woman with kids. Yeah.

• 43:04Dax Shepard?

  We go, step one, find a police officer or a woman with kids, and then next best shot, yeah.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a list.

• 43:10Dax Shepard?

  It's terrible.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Ending with man. Yeah. And so like initially I was relieved because I was like, nothing that bad can happen. Plus, I mean, I could tell that he was older. I feel like your brain goes in so many different ways to try to protect you. Try to make you think, okay, or at least mine does. The situation is not as dire as it seems like it's gonna be okay. There's a woman there. Maybe they're just kidnapping you because they want a daughter really bad. That's what I was honestly just thinking. I was like, is that why? Or maybe their daughter died. Right. Or something. And like, they're just heartbroken.

• 43:40Dax Shepard?

  Well, you're grasping for any ray of hope.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  Exactly. So we get back up into the mountains to like this hidden mountain camp. And sure enough, there's this woman. I feel relief at seeing her. She comes up to me, she hugs me, but at the same time, the hug was, I don't know. Is there such thing as an, yes, there is such thing as an aggressive hug.

• 44:03Dax Shepard?

  Sure, or a possessive hug.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, hug of like domination kind of thing.

• 44:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm claiming you. And she's also dressed in my, my, sorry.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, you're right.

• 44:11Dax Shepard?

  A crazy outfit. She looks like she is in a witch movie or something.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  Tunic like robes on.

• 44:17Dax Shepard?

  All white.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Just different. Yep. So she hugs you. She hugs me. She leads me inside of the tent. She sits me down on an upturned bucket.

• 44:28Dax Shepard?

  And I need to add, it is a camping tent.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a camping tent.

• 44:31Dax Shepard?

  No illusions of grandeur. This is a like three person tent.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  It's probably like a six person tent.

• 44:35Dax Shepard?

  You're right. Let's be fair. It's a six person tent.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Okay, but that's where they're living. Inside the tent, there's just bedding on the ground. And there's this one upturned bucket. That's what she has me sit on. She brings in like this little small blue basin, has water in it. She like takes off my shoes, starts washing my feet, goes to reach to unbutton my pajamas. And I was like, what? And I mean, I was shy. Yeah. I'm a late bloomer in lots of things. So I hadn't really hit puberty yet. And I don't know anyone who goes through puberty gracefully anyway. Not me. No, it's not easy.

• 45:17Dax Shepard?

  I was, I could not, of course, help but imagine my own 12 year oldness situation and. It's just devastating. It's fucking devastating.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you know, she's like trying to undress me. I just remember like grabbing hold of my pajamas.

• 45:32Dax Shepard?

  The last thing you want to be is naked in front of anybody, much less strangers. No.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Who knows what's gonna happen when these clothes come off. It's very scary.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  So did she let you keep them on?

• 45:41Speaker 02

  No. No, she was like, if you don't let me take them off you, I will have Emmanuel come in here and he will rip them off of you. And I remember just being like, I showered last night before I went to bed. I'm not dirty. If you want me to change, I'll change myself. You don't need to touch me. So she finally hands me a robe, like the one she has on. I remember pulling on and then taking my clothes off underneath the robe. And she scoops them up and she walks out of the tent.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  And you're just sitting there.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  I'm just sitting there, yep. I could hear them right outside the door. So the woman walks out. I honestly don't know how much time passed. Could have been thirty seconds, could have been ten minutes. But not too much time passes and the man comes in the tent. And he's changed out of like the dark sweatpants and sweatshirt and stalking hat that he wore to kidnap me in. And he has on these long robes, like the woman. And he comes in and he kneels down next to me. And he starts speaking to me. And at first I'm really not paying attention to what he has to say.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  And then I have a thought that maybe I should, because maybe there'd be some reason why he was kidnapping me or what was gonna happen next.

• 46:55Dax Shepard?

  As a religious person, did you think at any point, oh, these are satanic, some kind of devil worshipy people?

• 47:00Speaker 02

  At that point, I did not realize. He had already mentioned God. But because I grew up in such a religious environment, that didn't just automatically make me think, oh, crazy person.

• 47:14Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right, right, right.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  But then, as I listened to what he says, and he's like, I seal you to me as my wife before God and his angels as my witnesses.

• 47:23Dax Shepard?

  They're getting married, Monica.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 47:26Dax Shepard?

  And is it at that moment, he tells you, you are one of seven, I will be?

• 47:29Speaker 02

  He doesn't tell me right at that moment. But I mean, he does tell me later how I'm the first of seven wives. So he had this whole set of books that he viewed as scripture, and he called them the seven diamonds plus one.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Because the seven books, it was like the Old Testament, the New Testament. They were books.

• 47:50Dax Shepard?

  Standard stuff.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  I don't know how standard all of them were, but they were published books. And then his plus one was the book he wrote of like Revelations. His book. His book.

• 48:01Dax Shepard?

  Cause he's a prophet.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  He's not just a prophet, he's the Davidic king. I know. Like half of these things I'd never even heard of before. That was like the same thing, how he viewed me and the future six other girls he was gonna kidnap. So we were gonna be the seven wives, plus the one, and the one was Wanda Barzee Hepsibol. And she was like the queen that would reign over us all. She was the mother of Zion. That's what she claimed.

• 48:32Dax Shepard?

  Boy, you think about all the psychology that goes behind a master manipulator like that, and how offering her that high status role somehow made all the other... This dude obviously wants to be with a ton of women. But I've anointed you, this is the salve I'm gonna put on that is give you super high status and hope you're good with that.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  She had a prior marriage as well. She had six kids from her prior marriage.

• 48:58Dax Shepard?

  Cause that makes it even darker to think of someone who's had children.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Has kids, could do this, isn't it? I feel a little bit torn because on one hand, I don't want to be like, you're not totally at fault because you are. But at the same time, I don't think she knew what a healthy relationship was. And she probably had quite a few struggles herself in life.

• 49:18Dax Shepard?

  You must be in a very complicated situation when it comes to her in particular. Cause she is your predator, your oppressor. And you're smart enough to know she too is caught in some web of oppression herself, probably, yeah? Or no?

• 49:34Speaker 02

  There is definitely a cycle. And I think she probably was so desperate for love. She wanted to feel special. She wanted to feel like she was important because I think she probably had never felt that in her life. And so he is there telling her, no, you are my queen and you've experienced all of these hardships because God was testing you. And he has found you worthy. You are gonna be the mother of Zion. And even though you've had a hysterectomy and you're 58, one day you will bear me a son who will be the future Davidic king. I mean, you know? Part of me is like... You were a mother, or maybe you just gave birth six times.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  Maybe you don't understand what it is to be a mother because a mother would never harm a child.

• 50:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, how? And it's mind blowing to me that even another woman, because we've all been through puberty, you know? We've all been through that awkward, kind of miserable time in life. Why would you exploit a young girl probably at her most vulnerable? Why would you sit aside and encourage her to be raped?

• 50:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  And watch it?

• 50:45Dax Shepard?

  And what kind of bizarre psychology to watch someone you're married to rape somebody?

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, she must have really been so sick and manipulated that she had to probably believe. Because if she didn't. Yeah, exactly. You can't live like.

• 51:04Dax Shepard?

  Then she's triple monster. Or conversely, maybe she's an equal monster. I don't know. That's what I'm kind of asking. Like, are you even able to evaluate that?

• 51:11Speaker 02

  That's why I go back and forth is because sometimes I'm like, was she in such a bad place herself? From her whole life's past experience that she just was so desperate for love? For the feelings of wanting to be special that she allowed this to happen? It was just easier to believe and go along with than to stand up and be like, no, you're sick. This is wrong.

• 51:39Dax Shepard?

  And did she ever crack and show signs of jealousy?

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 51:44Dax Shepard?

  Yes. So was she, she was probably cruel to you at times?

• 51:48Speaker 02

  She never stood up for me and protected me. But I not only was supposed to be his wife, but I was supposed to be her handmaiden. So I was supposed to like wait on her. And so I felt that it was better for me to support her claims. Because then sometimes her jealousy. It would be so much that he would come out with a new revelation to try to placate her. So he'd come out and he'd say, oh, God has said that your glory is like that of the sun. And so I can only be with you when the sun is out.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  And me, that I was just more like the moon. And so he could only have me at night. I never wanted to be raped, but then if I supported her in that, at least I'd know I'd have a reprieve for 12 hours, eight hours, however long the sun was out.

• 52:48Dax Shepard?

  I would imagine if I were you, and I could be wrong, that I'm in survival mode. And I would recognize that if I could convince her I'm loyal to you,

• 52:58Dax Shepard?

  that that would help me later.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:01Dax Shepard?

  And probably playing this bizarre game where you're trying to make both people feel like you're loyal to them.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  And so they would have massive fights, like screaming at each other, which my parents disagreed, but I never saw them scream at each other. And so watching them just be straight up nasty to each other and scream at each other, I was like, oh, my goodness.

• 53:23Dax Shepard?

  And would you be ever hoping like, oh, good, I hope they break apart. That'll help dissolve all this. If she goes somewhere.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  She maybe will tell someone. That thought crossed my mind, but it became pretty quickly apparent that she wasn't going to betray him.

• 53:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  And I mean, one time she did actually leave the hidden campsite. And I was just left alone with Emmanuel Bryan Mitchell all day. She went down into Salt Lake because she was really mad at him because, I mean, food was always scarce. Water was scarce. And so she and I would be up in the mountains starving and he'd go down to Salt Lake, steal food.

• 54:02Dax Shepard?

  While Elizabeth was in the camp, he got arrested in Salt Lake for stealing beer.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, he actually got arrested a couple of times.

• 54:10Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he did a couple of times.

• 54:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, he got arrested in Salt Lake. He got arrested in Lakeside, where he was held in jail for almost a week. I thought I was going to die of starvation.

• 54:21Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Now, this wasn't in the doc, but just occurred to me. This is insanely boring, too. No, I mean, you guys are sitting in a fucking tent for months. Do you remember the tedium of that?

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Was there a TV in there? Not for, I would just mean more just to see the news. Were you seeing yourself?

• 54:42Dax Shepard?

  There's no electricity, there's no water.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  There is nothing. They had their scriptures. They would pray. When they'd pray, it would be like an hour. So long. My family prayed growing up, but it was like 90 seconds.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  Two minutes at a stretch.

• 54:57Dax Shepard?

  Reasonable.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. My average day would be like, wake up. And they like, well, actually, he'd probably rape me. And then he'd pray for like 45 minutes, an hour. And then he'd want to read sometimes whatever scripture he chose. But most time it'd be like what he wrote, which that would take, I don't know. An hour and a half, two hours. If there was food, then I'd be allowed to eat something. I mean, I'd be given what I could eat. I just couldn't take whatever. And then they'd mostly just talk all day.

• 55:33Dax Shepard?

  They're both crazy. I mean, it's two crazy individuals.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know. It was worse sometimes, just listening to them talk or actually being raped.

• 55:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you said that in the doc.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  I stand by that.

• 55:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Not to be salacious, but I think it's relevant. It's that first night he rapes you. It's unimaginable, obviously. You're in so much pain, you're bleeding. And then the next day, multiple times.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:59Dax Shepard?

  And then that just continues for months.

• 56:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, forced me to go naked. He was like, oh, we need to be like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

• 56:08Dax Shepard?

  That must have just been so hard for you.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  And so we're gonna go naked all day. And then a wife needs to know how to make love to her husband. So we're gonna demonstrate, you need to watch. And then it'll be your turn. And if you don't watch, you won't get any food. You won't get any water. You won't get your clothes back. Won't be able to go to sleep tonight. Nothing is gonna happen until you do this. Oh, my God.

• 56:31Dax Shepard?

  Now, the other mind blowing part of this is you were also going into town.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  Not right away, but yeah.

• 56:38Dax Shepard?

  How far into captivity before you guys all go into town?

• 56:43Speaker 02

  Probably about three months in.

• 56:45Dax Shepard?

  So he takes them to town and they're in the white outfits and both of them have their faces completely covered, other than the eyes.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  They added like a sheer veil for the eyes as well.

• 56:55Dax Shepard?

  He took you guys to a kind of illegal nightclub.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  I mean, it was just a

• 57:01Dax Shepard?

  A house party, I guess.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  House party, yeah.

• 57:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I guess the way that the guy who hosted the thing described it was in 2002 in Salt Lake, you have a very obvious Mormon culture and then you have a pretty thriving counterculture. And there would be these kind of off-grid after-hours parties where people did drugs and did whatever. So he comes to a place like this and the man offered you a beer or all three of you a drink. And Emmanuel said, the ladies are not allowed to drink, but I can drink. And then the man said to Elizabeth, this guy seems kind of controlling. And then Hezbollah or He- Hezbollah.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  Hepsaba.

• 57:37Dax Shepard?

  Hepsaba says you can't talk to her. Think how close this is to being.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  I bet that guy, when everything came out, he probably, I'm sure, was like, oh my God.

• 57:48Dax Shepard?

  He's in the doc saying he feels terrible that he didn't like push harder. But the one that is absolutely, you hear these stories about, I don't know if it was Dahmer or one of these serial killers where one of his victims got away and a cop brought him back to the house.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  What?

• 58:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So tell us about going to the Salt Lake Library.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  Winter is coming on and there's just no way we could have survived. Like a northern Utah winter, there's no way we could have gotten enough food or a tent. We would not have survived. Yeah. And so they're like, we need to find somewhere to go. We need to find somewhere for this winter. So it was decided we'd go to Southern California and they're like, okay, we need to find maps of the area. We need to figure where to go in Southern California. So we went to the public library. They had maps spread out on the table. They decided we'd head to San Diego. They were like looking at the maps of San Diego. There was a place called Lakeside, which is like, oh, Lakeside, that sounds kind of remote-ish. There must be a big lake, so there's probably a place to hide somewhere around there.

• 58:51Speaker 02

  Which is actually kind of funny because it's a manmade lake. Oh. Surrounded not by rural areas. Yeah. It was inside, that's where we go. So they're looking at the map and all of a sudden, this guy starts walking towards us and he gets closer and all of a sudden he flashes his badge and he says, "I'm a homicide detective. Oh. We've gotten a call and I just need to talk to you because there's a girl who we're trying to find. We just need to verify that she is not that girl." Oh, wow.

• 59:23Dax Shepard?

  Really quick, before you tell the outcome, do you remember what was happening in your body as that was happening?

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Shock, adrenaline, fear. Wanda Barzee, her hand just clamped down on my thigh and I was just...

• 59:37Dax Shepard?

  Paralyzed?

• 59:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was like being kidnapped all over again. It was like reliving every bad thing that had happened to me. And it just made me feel, like it reminded me of how invincible my captors felt to me. And that they had the control. Yeah. And not me. And they'd gotten away with so much already. Who was this police officer that he thought he could protect me when no one had found me? Oh, wow. So, I mean, I just was frozen. Everyone has kind of heard of fight or flight. Or freeze. And I froze. Yeah.

• 1:00:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  I mean, it wasn't even like a conscious decision.

• 1:00:20Dax Shepard?

  All of us would freeze. We'll get to that. But Emmanuel, he explains to the cop that their religion forbids her to show her face, that the only people that are ever allowed to see her face are her father and her future husband.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  Okay. And the police officer said, "Fine." I mean, he pushed. He was like, "Well, can I just convert to your religion for a day?" Oh. Like, "If you just let me see her face, anyone else who calls, I can assure them that she is who you say she is." I mean, he did push. He did try. Wow, but that's so hard for me.

• 1:00:54Dax Shepard?

  Now, that's the guy who I imagine has the most money go way beyond that.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  I actually think he's passed away since then, yeah. But, I mean, I saw him during the trial.

• 1:01:03Dax Shepard?

  Devastated?

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Of course. He just apologized so much. But I think that also just goes to show what a master manipulator.

• 1:01:11Dax Shepard?

  It's very Charles Manson-y. There is some Svengali quality he clearly had that he could not panic in the face of this situation he was in and then stick to it and get out of it.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  I mean, it was also really interesting during the trial, the prosecuting team like found so much stuff about him. And it was interesting because the defense team even brought up a lot of stuff that the prosecution was like, we were thinking about bringing that up. And then we're like, we don't need to, but this is just like another nail in the coffin. So why not? And one of the things they brought up was a letter that Brian Mitchell had written, I think it was to his mom or someone, but talking about what a good actor he was and how much he enjoyed acting and tricking people and convincing others of whatever he felt like. Oh, my God.

• 1:02:01Dax Shepard?

  Can you believe that? So they take a Greyhound or you take a bus, you're at a lakeside. You're there. And now, I think this is a very savvy moment for you. What it tells me is, as frozen as you were at many times that were terrifying, you also hadn't surrendered.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  You had hope?

• 1:02:20Dax Shepard?

  Because there's moments in the doc where I wonder, do we ever get Stockholm syndrome-y? Is there anything happening? I really can't fathom what happens mentally. Do you know that Stockholm syndrome?

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  I am well aware of it, but no. I'm not sure that I even really believe in Stockholm syndrome. Yeah. I feel like it's actually, as we just mentioned, fight, flight, freeze. But I think there's another response, which is appease, which is basically, which I don't even like the word fawn, because that makes it sound like you're flirty. Oh, interesting. It makes it sound like you're fawning over someone, like you're flirting, like you're looking for attention. That's true. It does kind of sound like it.

• 1:02:59Dax Shepard?

  But you're just satiating someone's ego is what's happening.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  But basically, it's just doing whatever you have to do to survive. So if that means going along with them, then that's what you do. Yeah.

• 1:03:09Dax Shepard?

  But you do get this pretty clever idea. Because you know, the further away from Salt Lake City you are, the less your chances of getting found are. How do you plant this seed?

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  I'd watched them do it for nine months. How they'd get away with whatever they wanted by claiming God commanded them or saying it was part of their religion. And I think you'd find with most rapists, it's not so much the uncontrollable need for sex. It's the power and control over another person. They want more than anything. And that's what they wanted was power and control. So I remember just thinking, well, if they can do this and get away with it, why can't I? I can only try. What's the worst thing that can happen? I guess they could kill me. At least I wouldn't be with them. Right. And so I thought, I'm just gonna give it a try. And so I went to him and I was just like, oh, I just have this feeling.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  I know it sounds so crazy. God would never speak to me. I am so sinful. I am just so filthy. He had forced me to drink so many beers one night, not that far away from this day that I am talking to him, where I'd ended up throwing up. Because I was a 15-year-old girl at this point. And he just left me there. And so like, I woke up the next morning, my face was all crusted to the ground and throw up, and it was all in my hair. So I mean, I'm gonna be like, you know, I'm just nothing. That showed my true spiritual state. I am just face down in my own vomit. But I keep having this feeling like we should go back to Salt Lake. But I know God would never speak to me. So do you think you could ask him?

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  Because I know he would tell you. Wow. You are his prophet. And I know he would tell you. So could you please ask him? And I think for him in that moment, not that he didn't already do everything he wanted to, to me, but I think he felt that was like him getting full control. He got you. Not only had control of my body, but my mind too in that moment.

• 1:05:15Dax Shepard?

  You are now a believer.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so that's when he was like, oh, I think you're right. I think we should go back to Salt Lake.

• 1:05:22Dax Shepard?

  The sketch is out. They know who they're looking for, but you know, where are they gonna find this guy?

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  Do you think he had been following the case at all?

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  I wouldn't say he was following it per se, but sometimes when he'd go down into Salt Lake, he'd bring newspaper articles back about the search. Or he'd talk about how every tree in Salt Lake had like a light blue ribbon tied around it and how every window in Salt Lake had a picture of my face in it.

• 1:05:53Dax Shepard?

  How did that make you feel when you knew that everyone was thinking about you?

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  It's one thing to say that, but to see it, or I guess experience it. I mean, I only experienced it after I got home and in like the days and weeks after I got home, the post office couldn't put mail in our mailbox. They brought it up to the house by the box full. And I remember at one point, there were so many flowers in our house that even the countertops in the bathrooms had vases of flowers on them. I could never imagine. I mean, even now, we all know like the number, oh, there's seven billion people in the world or however many. I mean, it's one thing to say that number, but then to actually even begin to realize

• 1:06:40Speaker 02

  just how many people that actually is, to put faces, to put bodies to that number

• 1:06:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  is overwhelming. And I didn't have seven billion people sending me stuff, but however many people it was.

• 1:06:52Dax Shepard?

  The whole country was.

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Was overwhelming.

• 1:06:56Dax Shepard?

  Did it buy you a little hope to know that everyone was paying attention?

• 1:07:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was comforting to think that there were people looking for me because who was I? Why would people look for me outside of my family? My vision of it would be my parents calling the police, my family and the police looking for me. Maybe one news story and that's it. In my mind's eye, it was like my mom driving her car through neighborhoods looking for me.

• 1:07:22Dax Shepard?

  Now, probably my most hated part of the whole story is something I've also experienced, which is after the first rape, you know, virginity is cherished.

• 1:07:37Dax Shepard?

  What were your thoughts after that?

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  I thought I was ruined.

• 1:07:42Dax Shepard?

  To the point where you didn't even know if your family would want you back?

• 1:07:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:45Dax Shepard?

  Fuck.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  If I managed to survive this, if I ever made it back to civilization, would I just become a pariah?

• 1:07:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  Like, how could anyone have anything to do with me once they knew the truth?

• 1:07:58Dax Shepard?

  Did you have any fantasies of like, if I'm returned, I'm just gonna pretend this part didn't happen?

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  I wanted to, but then also what would happen if I ever got married? And on my wedding night, my husband's like,

• 1:08:10Dax Shepard?

  Where's your high?

• 1:08:10Speaker 02

  What the hell, Elizabeth? Like, you're not a virgin.

• 1:08:13Dax Shepard?

  Right. So you felt like there was no escaping this?

• 1:08:17Speaker 02

  Now, as an adult and someone who's been in this field now for a long time, unfortunately, when you do hear about a kidnapping, you just automatically assume they've been raped. And at the time, I was like, oh, no one's gonna know.

• 1:08:29Dax Shepard?

  Right. Yeah, of course.

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  But that was probably naive of me to think that.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:08:43Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Scottsdale, Arizona. Monica, with summer ending or heading into fall, I've been researching a nice, quick getaway location, and I keep coming back to Scottsdale, Arizona.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  Ooh, Scottsdale's good. What's drawing you to it?

• 1:08:56Dax Shepard?

  Well, first of all, I have this wonderful memory of going there as a kid, when I'd go see my stepdad when he was working out there. The weather is perfect in fall. Warm, sunny, no humidity. And you can really do whatever you want with your time there. I want to do a sunrise hike through the Sonoran Desert, be surrounded by Saguaro, and then at the same afternoon, just completely melt into a spa treatment at one of their luxury resorts.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Oh, that sounds amazing. I want to do that. Also, I was there visiting my brother once, and I loved Old Town Scottsdale. It's so walkable. They have galleries and cute little restaurants and shops. The food scene alone is worth the trip.

• 1:09:35Dax Shepard?

  What I keep reading is that it's luxurious, but not stuffy. There's no pressure to do it a certain way. You can explore public art, check out the architecture, go off-roading in the desert, or just sit and watch a sunset.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  It really is the perfect fall reset.

• 1:09:49Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about all Scottsdale has to offer at unwindinscottsdale.com. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, HP, for supporting this episode. Their HP Smart Tank printer is the last printer you'll ever need. Oh, here we go, Monica. With a refillable ink tank and up to three years of ink included. So you get thousands of pages of cartridge-free printing. Hallelujah. To learn more, search for HP Smart Tank. We get support from Superhuman. Look, I love what I do. The conversations, the ideas, the creative stuff. But there's this whole other layer of work that eats my day alive. The inbox that never ends. Docs I need to get through, threads I'm behind on.

• 1:10:34Dax Shepard?

  And by the time I've dealt with all that, the stuff I actually want to focus on gets whatever's left. What I needed was something that just works where I'm already working. Not another tab to open, not another thing to set up. Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly, is different. It's already right there, inside your email, your docs, your browser. You don't go to it. It's already working alongside you. You're deep in a long thread, highlight it, and it pulls the key points. About to send something important? It flags what doesn't add up before it leaves your hands. It knows your style, your workflows, and it just backs you up without getting in the way. A thought partner that's already up to speed, at your service, not after your job.

• 1:11:14Dax Shepard?

  So do yourself a favor and try Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly. Find out more at superhuman.com. We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace. And I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic, and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits. Wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex. It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere,

• 1:11:57Dax Shepard?

  whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic. Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run. Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com.

• 1:12:18Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you return to Salt Lake and pretty quickly upon arriving, someone spots the three of you in these crazy outfits and calls the police.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  I mean, actually, at that point, we weren't even in the robes.

• 1:12:31Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you weren't?

• 1:12:32Speaker 02

  Because we hitchhiked back from California and my captors were like, no one will pick us up hitchhiking if we're in the robes.

• 1:12:40Dax Shepard?

  Fuck no. It looks like children of the corner.

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, we need to look a little more normal.

• 1:12:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Okay, so then you hitchhiked back. It was right after you guys got there?

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was the first day we were back in Utah.

• 1:12:54Dax Shepard?

  And you're on foot and a police officer pulls up in a car?

• 1:12:57Speaker 02

  It was multiple.

• 1:12:58Dax Shepard?

  This is the part I could imagine. It just felt like getting suffocated. This moment that I would think in a movie, you're gonna run towards the cops. But there's no way that's what's gonna happen.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  I mean, it was like the library all over again.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly.

• 1:13:14Dax Shepard?

  You have to assume that he's gonna get out of it, you're gonna be with him, and if you do something wrong, he's gonna punish you. That has to be your assumption.

• 1:13:20Speaker 02

  Or he could kill me, or he could go after my family. And I mean, I had a captor on either side of me, like physically touching me. It's not like I was just hanging out by myself on the side.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:31Speaker 02

  So like, again, that threat was very much in the forefront of my mind. And I absolutely knew what my captors were capable of, but I didn't know what police officers were capable of.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, so far, they haven't been able to do anything.

• 1:13:45Speaker 02

  Exactly. In my mind, in that moment, it seemed... Safest to turn to my normal survival instinct, which was to do what they said.

• 1:13:58Dax Shepard?

  How did it unfold?

• 1:13:59Speaker 02

  My captors had the whole backstory prepared that they told me to say if we were ever questioned. The police officer showed up. I don't honestly remember how many there were, but it felt like a lot. Were there questioning my captors? And then they started to question me. They were aggressive. They weren't kind and polite or comforting in any way. So that was intimidating. That was scary. Felt like I was receiving scary from both ends. Yeah. And my captors, they were adamant about who we were. And police officers tried asking me questions. I gave the answers I'd been told to give.

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  They were much more aggressive this time than any other interaction we'd ever had with police. And finally, one of the officers was like, we need to separate her and talk to her alone.

• 1:14:55Dax Shepard?

  Yes, this is a good instinct.

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. But they weren't like, well, no, it's against our religion. We weren't in the robes or anything. And so they actually didn't say that. Maybe they knew at that point, like, the jig is up. Yeah, I don't know. So they took you aside? Not that far. I mean, I was still in view. It was like just a few yards away from my captors. And again, this officer was very aggressive towards me in his questioning. And I just remember feeling scared.

• 1:15:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:25Speaker 02

  Like, there was like.

• 1:15:26Dax Shepard?

  Like, you're in trouble.

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. There was no softness or comfort in any of this situation. Yeah, he kept on questioning me, started saying, you know, there's a girl, she's been gone now for a long time. Her family's never given up hope. Don't you want to go home? I mean, of course I wanted to go home. Of course I wanted to be back with my family. But everything that had happened was so extreme.

• 1:15:49Dax Shepard?

  How did he phrase it? He's in the dock, the officer who ultimately got it out of you. He said something, I need to ask you.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, he is like, are you Elizabeth Smart?

• 1:15:59Dax Shepard?

  And you were kind of frozen again.

• 1:16:01Speaker 02

  Because on one hand, my captors, once we were in the camp, they didn't speak with you, yours. It was always like thee, thy, thine. It was all the tows. So. I didn't know how much my captors could hear from where I was at. So I felt like I couldn't just say, yes, I'm Elizabeth Smart. Because also, they had given me a whole different name while I was with them. I was told, you're not allowed to speak about your past. Your name's not Elizabeth. They had tried to strip me of my identity, everything. And so when the police officer said, you know, are you Elizabeth Smart? I just felt like I had to speak the way that I'd been told to speak, hoping that maybe my captor hadn't heard the question.

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  So that if some way he had been released, which had been the norm, I wouldn't be in trouble. And so I responded with, thou sayest.

• 1:16:58Dax Shepard?

  Think if you're the police officer.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  I know, I know, I know.

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  He's like, what does that mean?

• 1:17:05Dax Shepard?

  I asked a 14-year-old girl if she's Elizabeth Smart, and she says thou sayest.

• 1:17:08Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  So that means yes?

• 1:17:10Dax Shepard?

  They put you in the car.

• 1:17:12Speaker 02

  They handcuffed me.

• 1:17:13Dax Shepard?

  Handcuffed, Jesus.

• 1:17:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay, guys. Do you remember a point where you actually felt like, oh, my God, it's over? When did that moment happen?

• 1:17:23Speaker 02

  I mean, honestly, it wasn't until my dad was there. They had handcuffed me, they brought me to the police station. I'm like, if you thought I was innocent, like, you would have taken me home. Isn't it my right to have a phone call? Like, I remember being a kid going into my parents' room at night, and they'd be sitting there watching Perry Mason. And I was like, I swear I get a phone call. I saw that.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  I didn't get a phone call, they didn't take me home.

• 1:17:47Dax Shepard?

  How far is Sandy, Utah, from your family home?

• 1:17:50Speaker 02

  20, 30 minutes.

• 1:17:50Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you didn't have to wait an eternity for dad to...

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:17:53Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  No. So they called your parents?

• 1:17:55Dax Shepard?

  Monica, there's footage of him coming into the room she's being held in and hugging her for the first time. Oh my god.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  I mean, it wasn't until then that I was like, it's gonna be okay. Like, I still honestly didn't even know if I was in trouble or not, but I was like, my dad's here. He's not gonna let anyone hurt me. Yeah. Like, these two people have hurt me. Like, it's gonna be okay.

• 1:18:20Dax Shepard?

  Kind of insult to injury. It takes eight years for this trial to happen.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  Everything's so...

• 1:18:27Dax Shepard?

  Everything's so broken.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  It's like, very broken and disappointing. We don't have a justice system. We have a legal system. Yeah. So then what's happening in that eight years? Are they in jail? They are in jail. Well, I mean, they're in the state hospital for some of it. They're in jail for some of it. The statute of limitations comes up in Utah. It has to be moved to the federal courts because otherwise he's gonna walk free. What? Yeah.

• 1:18:55Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna fast forward to he's in prison for life.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  Well, I like that.

• 1:18:58Dax Shepard?

  And she got 15 years. She's out. But what is not in the doc, and I got left with so many questions, is when do we dare return to school? And what on earth is that like? I mean, this recovery process has got to be so challenging.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  I was rescued in March. I remember my parents asking, like, what do you want to do? I was like, I wanna see my friends. I wanna go back to school. I had a lot of FOMO. Parents were like, you can't go back to school yet. So I went back to school in the fall. Were they also like, you're not leaving our side ever again? Yeah. I would never. I'd be like, I'm going with you for the rest of your life, everywhere. My mom basically said that.

• 1:19:39Dax Shepard?

  Were you offered immediately therapy?

• 1:19:42Speaker 02

  I was offered everything, but I did not know what therapy was. I'd say I had like a pretty negative connotation attached to it.

• 1:19:52Dax Shepard?

  That's what New York liberals do.

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  Especially back then, too. I just knew it was something that psychiatrists did. And I had such a bad experience at the Children's Justice Center with psychiatrists a few days after I was rescued because we were told if I talked to them, they could stand as proxy for me during the trial. That of course did not happen, but I'd just been kidnapped by a middle aged white man claiming God commanded him to. And then I was being very intensively questioned by two middle aged white men, clearly religious.

• 1:20:26Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was very sheltered as a kid. My parents didn't call a penis a penis. It was like your privates. I had to go down the whole pathway of being like, oh, he hurt me. Oh, he meth tested me. Oh, he raped me. Oh, well, he stuck himself inside. He forced his penis inside my vagina. I had to get to that level of language.

• 1:20:45Dax Shepard?

  With the psychiatrists.

• 1:20:46Speaker 02

  With the two psychiatrists.

• 1:20:48Dax Shepard?

  Must have been so uncomfortable.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  That I was like, this is the worst thing ever. I never want to talk about this again. Yeah, I don't want to think about this anymore. And if these are psychiatrists, I am not going near anyone ever again.

• 1:21:01Dax Shepard?

  And now in retrospect, do you think you would have benefited from the right therapist at that time?

• 1:21:08Speaker 02

  If I really understood what it was, it could have benefited me, but I will forever be grateful to my parents because they were understandably panicked when I was like, nope, I'm not doing this. My parents went to therapy and their therapist was like, if she doesn't want to talk, it's okay. It's not going to do her any good if she doesn't want to. You need to let her make her own choices and you just need to make sure you're taking care of yourselves because whatever she's been through will have been awful. And you need to make sure you're both in a place that if she wants to talk to you, you can be in a place to hear it. I am so grateful that they gave me that choice.

• 1:21:46Dax Shepard?

  Well, for all of you guys to heal from this, your father has to. Accept his own shame, forgive himself, move beyond that. You have to deal with your shame. Everyone's got to get their shame out of the way, kind of, before we can possibly process all this and talk about it. This is dangerous emotion and feeling to be carrying, and I bet everyone was carrying a good deal of it.

• 1:22:13Speaker 02

  I actually asked my mom if she ever felt guilty about the window being left cracked open. It wasn't like wide open. She said no.

• 1:22:23Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's good.

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  Because she was like, I didn't invite him into our home. He broke into our home. He violated our home.

• 1:22:30Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:22:30Speaker 02

  That wasn't because I said, here, come on in, take my daughter.

• 1:22:33Dax Shepard?

  That's so healthy, because when these bad things happen, I start blaming myself. My guilt and shame over my situation was so different from yours, obviously. I wasn't abducted. I was lured. I had bad feelings in my stomach. I ignored those at times. Mind you, I was eight. But I had to really reckon that, yeah, I didn't listen to my gut. I know I didn't. I feel so guilty and shame ridden about that. And at some point, I have to go, and you were eight?

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  I mean, even if you were 50 and it happened, like, at the end of the day. So like, my foundation, Elizabeth Smart Foundation, one of our main programs is called Smart Defense, and it's a holistic approach to self-defense, trauma-informed, but it's a combination of Muay Thai, Krav Maga, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. But my director, she is a five-time world champion in her weight class for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. But she'll tell you, even with all of her training, she could still be raped tomorrow, because at the end of the day, the only way for sexual violence to end, for rape to end, is for rapists to stop raping. Yeah.

• 1:23:42Dax Shepard?

  To put the onus on the victim is a little crazy.

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter how old you are, who you are. Those details don't matter.

• 1:23:49Dax Shepard?

  Well, the part that was healing for me, Elizabeth, that sent me fucking bawling is at the end, you say, You change your story from you should have done this, or you could have done that, to you can finish this, you're strong, keep going, you can survive anything that comes your way. And there's some pride to be had in that. Cause you can kill yourself with, I should have done this. And why didn't I say to the cop? And why didn't like the self abuse you can give yourself? Cause you didn't act like a fucking hero in a movie. But that, a hero is something that can survive and make it today. Uh, it's fucking so beautiful. I really appreciated that.

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  I mean, each one of us has survived our worst day.

• 1:24:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's the fucking victory. You're a hero if you survive.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  There have been times in my life where I hate where I'm at, or I don't like what I'm doing, or I willingly signed up for a marathon and I'm at like mile 18 and I've hit the wall and I'm like, what the hell am I doing? Why am I here? Why did I pay to torture myself?

• 1:24:57Dax Shepard?

  Wrong with me.

• 1:24:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And then I'll be like, no, if all these other people around me can do this, I can do this. I survived nine months of being tortured and kidnapped. If I can survive that, and all these other people have an experience that, not to judge them, cause I know everyone has a story.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  No, you can say that.

• 1:25:16Dax Shepard?

  You're a bad motherfucker.

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  They probably haven't done that. And so if they can do this, I can do this.

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  That's right, you can do anything.

• 1:25:22Dax Shepard?

  Oh, man. How was having your name? How did that play out? Everywhere you went, you were Elizabeth Smart. You went to college, you went to BYU. What was the weight of that? And did you ever consider changing your name? Do you have any desire to like, I don't wanna be Elizabeth Smart, the girl who got kidnapped?

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  I would assume you understand. There's Elizabeth Smart, who everyone thinks they know. And then there's me.

• 1:25:43Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Well, and then how do you deal with pity? Because I bet a lot of people, even upon meeting you, have this like, oh, maybe they think you're fragile. Or how do you deal with that?

• 1:25:53Speaker 02

  I mean, the people that have pity for me, they don't know me.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's so healthy to know that.

• 1:25:59Speaker 02

  Do I want people's pity? No, but if it helps them feel better, just to be like, I love you, I prayed for you, I'm so grateful you're alive. I followed your story. I can listen to that. But like, I feel like if you get to know me, then you're like, oh. She's fine. You can kind of separate.

• 1:26:14Dax Shepard?

  So it wasn't a burden for you to have been so well known and then tried to carry on with a normal quote, I'm quoting again Monica here, but it's a normal life.

• 1:26:23Speaker 02

  No, it was hard. There definitely have been times where I'm like, I am sick of being Elizabeth Smart. Where is the benefit in all of this?

• 1:26:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or what about when you fell in love? Did it reignite that cycle of I'm damaged? This guy's got to know this about me. Or you had worked through all that by then?

• 1:26:41Speaker 02

  No, by that point, I was like, if anyone ever judges me for that, they're not worthy of my time. So healthy. Good. My husband, he didn't know who I was. I mean, he's from Scotland, born and raised, had no clue who I was. If the Scots are anything, they are stubborn.

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  He was never afraid to push back or tell me exactly what he thought, which I still appreciate it. But back then I was like, thank you, because I felt like everyone just would tell me yes, or go along with whatever I said, probably because they thought I'd break, or they didn't want to hurt my feelings or something. But he was like, nah, I don't think so. That's good. That's a good partner. I love that about him.

• 1:27:25Dax Shepard?

  Most days?

• 1:27:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, some days.

• 1:27:26Dax Shepard?

  Fifty one percent of the days.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  I love that about him. What did it do to your relationship with religion?

• 1:27:34Dax Shepard?

  It's so funny, Monica, I was just about to say, the one thing that was really not addressed in the doc, it seems crazy to me that we're not addressing it, is exactly that. How do you think religion is intertwined in this story?

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  Uh, too much.

• 1:27:48Dax Shepard?

  Too much.

• 1:27:48Speaker 02

  It's a huge part of it.

• 1:27:50Dax Shepard?

  I have seen enormous, beautiful, positive outcomes of religion. It's working for the vast majority of people and it's a gift to people's life. And I see that. And I also want to say, I'm in AA, that's my religion. There's fucking knuckleheads in AA. And if they go out and they kill someone in the name of AA, that's not AA, that's a fucking knucklehead who wanted to use that. So I'm going to recognize all that. I don't want to disrespect anybody when I say what I'm about to say, which is, the three Judeo-Christian Old Testament religions, the prophets are all male, the apostles are all male, the characters are all male, the leaders are all male. If you're inundated with that and you are a little bit off,

• 1:28:34Dax Shepard?

  I think if you're a male, you think you are entitled to a lot of shit that this thing said. Well, clearly, only the men talk to God, only the men lead the people. And this entitlement, and then also this historic thing with child brides and multiple brides, it's all religion too. And without religion, the scene doesn't work at the library. Why on earth would this person honor that? That's preposterous. When it goes bad, this is the part it goes bad. And I'm just curious, what did all of this do to your feeling about religion? And are you scared to even say it?

• 1:29:07Speaker 02

  I am so grateful for the values that I was raised with. I am grateful for the importance that family played in my life, for the belief that God is kind and loving, and he's merciful and not vindictive and a harsh cruel God. I'm so grateful for that. But now, as a grown up and looking back on everything that happened, and honestly, looking at a lot of things in this world, I think it's too easy for a religion to... Again, I agree with you, there's many beautiful things. I'm grateful for all of those things, but also now as an adult, just because someone tells me something, that doesn't mean I believe it.

• 1:29:51Speaker 02

  And it sounds maybe like I'm cynical, but also I just know how quickly people take religion to fanaticism.

• 1:30:00Dax Shepard?

  When someone thinks they're talking to a supernatural being, this is dangerous because that supernatural being has the ultimate morality and the ultimate everything. So your justifications are so built in. It's hard for me to get into Brian David Mitchell's head and find out if he really believed all of it. But if he really did believe all of it, and he is receiving what he thinks is these messages from God, then the laws of the land mean nothing, the police mean nothing, your judgment means nothing. That's a dangerous tool for a megalomaniacal narcissist to have. What about your dad leaving?

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  My dad leaving churches we're talking about?

• 1:30:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, but I mean, it was that part of like, so your dad came out as gay. And so he left the church. So I have a really great friend who was raised very, very religious. And she had her struggles with it, but what for her was the breaking point was her brother came out as gay and the family was like, no way. And she was like, hold on a second, there's no fucking way that I believe in a God that doesn't love my brother as much as everyone else. I'm out. If that's what you're saying it's about, then I'm gone. And I just wondered if anything with you and your dad.

• 1:31:05Speaker 02

  I mean, he called me, it was like six or seven in the morning. It was really early and I was in such a sleep deprived state because the baby wasn't sleeping and I swear I was up all night. So you see a phone call at like six or seven in the morning. Oh, it's horrible. Who died? Like who's in the hospital? What happened?

• 1:31:22Dax Shepard?

  They don't draw the lottery winning ticket at 6 a.m. It's not like he's calling with great news. That's in the evening.

• 1:31:28Speaker 02

  I mean, honestly, I thought my mom was in the hospital, but it's like word vomit. He's just like, Elizabeth, I'm leaving the church. I'm divorcing your mother and I'm gay. Like a run on sentence. Just like. Wow. And I was like, what?

• 1:31:41Dax Shepard?

  I'm sorry, I haven't had my coffee yet. Did I come again?

• 1:31:44Speaker 02

  Sorry, what'd you say? And he just like kept going and going and going. And I was like, what? All I could think to say at the end was, well, you're still my dad. I still love you.

• 1:31:56Dax Shepard?

  See, what I was thinking was so weirdly unique about that situation. And why I bring it up is not to be salacious, is you had this thought that I might get rejected from this dirty secret I have and I would no longer be loved. And your dad hugged you in that police station. It was very obvious that would never be the case. And then you're weirdly in a situation where he's got this shame.

• 1:32:24Speaker 02

  You get to reciprocate.

• 1:32:25Dax Shepard?

  And you get to be the person that also would never, ever abandon him.

• 1:32:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, he'll just never stop being my dad. And actually, over the years, it's not that my dad and I weren't ever close, but it was almost like because I was so close with my mom, I'd call my mom and my dad would be in the background. So I didn't necessarily feel like I needed to call my dad because he was like next to my mom.

• 1:32:47Dax Shepard?

  Dads mostly pick up the phone and say, I'll put your mom on.

• 1:32:50Speaker 02

  Pretty much. Or like if I went to my parents' house, I'd mostly be there to like hang out with my mom and my dad would be in and out and be like, oh, hi dad. So then when this happened, something really nice that came out of it was that it made me really establish my own relationship with my dad and not just piggyback it off of my relationship with my mom. When I talk to him now, it's very intentional and not just like, oh, hey.

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's lovely.

• 1:33:15Dax Shepard?

  I think you're astounding. I can't believe how well you have managed and healed from this insane, once in a generation story. And as you said, it's happened a bunch of times, so I shouldn't say that. But the fact that you've not only succeeded and kept moving forward and built a family and a life, that you also started your foundation and you've been very active and you've been to Congress and you are on it. You took the worst situation and seemed to have made the best possible outcome from it.

• 1:33:47Speaker 02

  Well, thanks.

• 1:33:48Dax Shepard?

  That's very impressive.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  It is extremely.

• 1:33:50Dax Shepard?

  And I really, really appreciate how openly you talk about all of the shame and guilt and the experience in the doc. I think it's enormously helpful. I'm glad my daughters got to see that.

• 1:34:02Speaker 02

  I actually asked my daughter if she wanted to watch it with me and she was like, no.

• 1:34:06Dax Shepard?

  How do they compute what happened to you? They don't, right? Because you're just their parent. They've only had one and that parent got abducted. That's how parents are.

• 1:34:13Speaker 02

  They know what happened. I mean, they don't know like details.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:16Speaker 02

  But they know I was kidnapped and they know I'm like, no sleepovers ever.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  Totally fair.

• 1:34:21Speaker 02

  Because of things. And whenever I say no to something, they're like, why? And I'm like, you know one. It's to keep us safe.

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  Oh, safety.

• 1:34:33Speaker 02

  I'm like, that's my job.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:34:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what's the tension like? Because I have this with my wife. I'm like, I don't like that dude. Why does he take so many pictures of kids? Why is he a youth sports coach? He doesn't have kids. I'm like way hyper vigilant about all of it. And I think my wife is generally pretty tolerant of it. Occasionally she's like, you're being nuts. How does that play out? Do you guys have these kind of debates?

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  I'd say I'm pretty cautious. I also remind myself, not only is it my job to keep them safe, but it's also my job to like prepare them for when they leave home, make sure that they know how to trust their gut and work through their emotions and figure out their own problems. And so my natural instinct is to always like intervene and hovering around them. And so I would say I

• 1:35:20Speaker 02

  Fight a lot against my natural instinct.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's hard.

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  Which it is hard.

• 1:35:24Dax Shepard?

  But does your husband ever have to say, Elizabeth, we're good?

• 1:35:27Speaker 02

  I'd say we're a lot on the same page. Like, my son decided it'd be a good idea just to go to his friend's house for Halloween instead of coming home first, and we didn't know.

• 1:35:40Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:35:41Speaker 02

  And...

• 1:35:44Speaker 01

  No, thank you.

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  So we were like calling the school, like calling all of his friends. And I mean, we found him. And then my husband's like, I'm coming to get you right now.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:53Dax Shepard?

  Can you not do a Scottish accent? I would assume if you live with a Scot.

• 1:35:56Speaker 02

  Oh, that's good.

• 1:36:01Dax Shepard?

  Well, again, thank you so much for your openness. Yeah, I appreciate it.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  Coming to see us, we really appreciate it.

• 1:36:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you for having me.

• 1:36:08Dax Shepard?

  And the documentary is outstanding. It's incredibly well-made. It's flawless, it's so good. It's called Kidnapped, Elizabeth Smart, January 21st on Netflix. I appreciate it and good luck with everything. Oh, where should people go for the Elizabeth Smart Foundation?

• 1:36:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, just go to elizabethsmartfoundation.org or we're on social media.

• 1:36:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay, thank you so much.

• 1:36:28Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:36:29Dax Shepard?

  All right.

• 1:36:33Dax Shepard?

  Hi there, this is Hermium Hermium. If you like that, you're gonna love the fact that Miss Monica.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Okay, so we heard back from the New York Times. Big deal. Because last week, we were talking about...

• 1:36:46Dax Shepard?

  Monday.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, Monday, we were discussing the armchair expert on connections.

• 1:36:53Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  And I said, you know, we don't know for sure if it's about us or if it's just a phrase.

• 1:36:58Dax Shepard?

  But I took matters into my own hands. I posted and tagged Wyena, which is why we're here.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  They reached out. Hi, Rob, hope you're well. I'm on the PR team at the New York Times and work closely with Wyena Lu, the creator of connections. Actually, Winna Lu. We know that that's actually how her name is pronounced, but we just keep saying it wrong.

• 1:37:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  I saw Dax's recent Instagram story about connections, which inspired me to reach out. We're huge fans of armchair expert and knowing that Dax is a fan of connections and New York Times games more broadly, made this feel like a particularly fun and natural overlap. Anyway, they're gonna send us some connections New York Times swag, which is exciting. But, um...

• 1:37:36Dax Shepard?

  I think we can conclude from this that we're right.

• 1:37:39Speaker 01

  I don't know. I just don't, I need to hear it, I need proof. I'm a fact checker, so I need to hear it from.

• 1:37:47Dax Shepard?

  The horse's ass?

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, from Winna.

• 1:37:49Dax Shepard?

  Well, first of all, Winna, um, hearted it.

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:37:54Dax Shepard?

  Confirmation number one for me, and then this is like, it's a done deal.

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  I think it would, for me to feel good, it would need to be armchair expert podcast.

• 1:38:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay, that's asking for, might as well spell out our names.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:38:06Dax Shepard?

  She can only be so blatant about her.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:38:09Dax Shepard?

  fandom, she has ethics.

• 1:38:10Speaker 01

  No, she spells out, there's, there's stars on there.

• 1:38:14Dax Shepard?

  What would be fun, well, A, I want to talk to her, so we're gonna try to talk to her.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  We're gonna try, yeah.

• 1:38:19Dax Shepard?

  Second, I wonder how many other things she's a fan of that we're missing. I want to find out her list of her little fun hobbies that she's winking at, like, how many people is Winna winking at?

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  She winks, but.

• 1:38:32Dax Shepard?

  The Winna wink, they'll call it from now on.

• 1:38:34Speaker 01

  But this, okay, so this is to my broader point, like, sometimes she'll do categories and it'll be like, you know, what'll, what'll end up being is like, movie stars in horror movies.

• 1:38:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  Or whatever.

• 1:38:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  I don't think that means necessarily that like, she's a huge fan of those people.

• 1:38:51Dax Shepard?

  No, for sure, if she's just trying to do a person and connect through four projects.

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:56Dax Shepard?

  But this isn't that.

• 1:38:58Speaker 01

  Maybe she thought we'd win, and so that's why she had that set.

• 1:39:02Dax Shepard?

  Um, maybe she went out, went out money, she was like, ee!

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  She's like, how do we change it to good hang?

• 1:39:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, she thought it was gonna be a celebratory wink.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Anyway, we do love connections, so it's just.

• 1:39:14Dax Shepard?

  If you had to pick between a wink from Winna on connections, or a Golden Globe, what's your pick?

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  Oh, Winna, a hundred percent.

• 1:39:23Dax Shepard?

  A thousand percent.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:24Dax Shepard?

  Cause I like, it entered our other li, like, it entered our real life.

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:39:28Dax Shepard?

  Even though it was our real life. It also entered our real life.

• 1:39:31Speaker 01

  It entered in a way that was like, we engage with this, we like it so much, to feel like, oh, maybe she likes it, would be great. So that was fun, um.

• 1:39:44Dax Shepard?

  Did you have a post-show come down?

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think of my adre, I had an adrenaline.

• 1:39:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  Dump, but also, as I keep saying, but I keep cutting, um, my mouth really hurts. Very badly.

• 1:39:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  And when your mouth hurts.

• 1:39:59Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh, and you, and you use your mouth to make a living?

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:40:02Dax Shepard?

  Like a prostitute, or a flute player, or a podcaster.

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  Oh, I can't imagine being a flute player right now.

• 1:40:08Dax Shepard?

  What about a prostitute?

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  No, I could just use my hands.

• 1:40:11Dax Shepard?

  No, you have to use your mouth.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  No, I'm gonna use my hands.

• 1:40:14Dax Shepard?

  Your clients really, really insist.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  Trust me, they would not want me to use my mouth if they saw the inside of my lip right now. It looks gross.

• 1:40:21Dax Shepard?

  You're overestimating Johns in general, and that's kind of you. You are never judgmental.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, but your, your mouth, you know, you used to talk, used to eat. That's when it's really activated. To drink, which is why I'm extremely dehydrated. And because it gets so much action, it's just not healing. It won't heal.

• 1:40:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:42Speaker 01

  I keep biting it, it won't heal.

• 1:40:44Dax Shepard?

  But you had a huge output, I just want to acknowledge, because I was with you yesterday. And I was like, I can tell she's had a really busy week. Like, you were at, you went to six events.

• 1:40:55Speaker 01

  Lots of events.

• 1:40:56Dax Shepard?

  Different outfits, and the, and the, the stress of the interviews and the picture, like.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:02Dax Shepard?

  I could tell yesterday was like, oh my god, what have I been through in the last six days?

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  But it is, it's a mix.

• 1:41:08Dax Shepard?

  And I was doing that with the flu as well.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a mix, because it was, it was a lot of events over the course of the week, which were fun. Like, they're fun. But they, you know, I think people, I'm just gonna get, you know, people look at celebrities, movie stars mainly, and TV stars and stuff, and they're like, what do they have to complain about? They just go and get their makeup done, and their hair done, and they wear cute outfits, and they take pictures, and like, like annoying for you to complain, which I get.

• 1:41:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  But it's not that easy to like, it, it, it takes a long time. These glam routines take a long time.

• 1:41:50Dax Shepard?

  That's your dude.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. If you're a woman, you, it's, it's hours and hours, and if you have a job, as I do, you don't have, other things fall by the wayside, so then there's like, stress building, because you're like, oh, I'm behind on this, and I'm behind on this, and I'm just sitting here getting my makeup done, like, eek.

• 1:42:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't think being prettier is gonna help with the edit.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. And then, the main thing for me, and this is, this is weird, because it's normally not very cold in California. It was cold last week, very.

• 1:42:22Dax Shepard?

  Chili.

• 1:42:23Speaker 01

  It was cold. I was outside in, you can't wear a jacket.

• 1:42:28Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  You're not allowed if you're a, if you're a woman.

• 1:42:31Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  To wear a jacket, because there are pictures.

• 1:42:35Dax Shepard?

  You gotta stand on your tiptoes.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  And you're on.

• 1:42:37Dax Shepard?

  And your purse is a fucking joke. I was thinking this, because I'm always in this situation with Kristen. I'm going places with her and she has this clutch. It's a joke. It's not even a thing. And so I'm holding all of her stuff. Her phone won't fit in there, you know, the fucking nicotine spray won't, you know, come multiple. And I'm just like, why is a, why is a bigger purse ugly? What the fuck? Why, why can't you have like a normal sized purse on the carpet?

• 1:43:01Speaker 01

  In life, like you, there are big, my purse is enormous and it's very cute. I love it. My, yeah, I have a full pharmacy in there.

• 1:43:10Dax Shepard?

  You're apothecary.

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  But I can't, no, you can't. That would be a big, like, bad thing to do faux pas to bring a big purse. You bring a tiny purse, you need some, you can't wear a coat because that covers up your outfit. And so you're also freezing cold, but have to act very, very comfortable.

• 1:43:28Dax Shepard?

  Oh, but I just had a breakthrough idea for you for your first billion dollar, um, business.

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:43:34Dax Shepard?

  You need to design a very elegant handbag.

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:43:37Dax Shepard?

  That has, like, it's designed to hold your pharmacy.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  Oh, like it has individual compartments?

• 1:43:44Dax Shepard?

  You know, it's got like pill packets that come in there and like little sleeves, like you put a Coke can in, but it's for pill sized things.

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:43:52Dax Shepard?

  And it, because generally it's just sloshing around, but if you, if the whole inside was lined with like little railings to put all your pills and your bottles. And you somehow do a play on apothecary. I don't know. I don't have it yet, but it's like apothecary, you know, it's a bag of Gary or something. Bag and apothecary are mixed. And that's your new billion dollar idea.

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  The problem is.

• 1:44:13Dax Shepard?

  I only want 100 million.

• 1:44:18Dax Shepard?

  I just want a little 100 million.

• 1:44:21Speaker 01

  The issue is, although I could do a good marketing campaign and stuff.

• 1:44:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  But like, I'm the only one walking around with a pharmacy in my bag.

• 1:44:30Dax Shepard?

  It may be as complete as yours, but I'm telling you, most women, when I say I need something, they have like, they have fucking Advil in their purse. Like they have stuff.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  They have the basics.

• 1:44:40Dax Shepard?

  All you women have medicine in your purse, to varying degrees.

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  Okay, but people have the basics, but mine is extreme and it, it comes. I know, because I'm with other women and people be like, oh, I'm.

• 1:44:52Dax Shepard?

  Wish I had a Midol.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then I'm like, I have it. And they're like, I didn't even know they still made those anymore. And it's like, I have it.

• 1:44:59Dax Shepard?

  Right, it's old, but I haven't.

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  There's a spill and I'm like, here's my Tide Stain Stick.

• 1:45:04Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  No one else has it, you know, I have it all.

• 1:45:07Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  And so I need to figure out a way to convince the world that they need it all. I can men get on board too? And it's like, there's also a man bag.

• 1:45:16Dax Shepard?

  We don't believe in medicine or carrying medicine.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  Until.

• 1:45:20Dax Shepard?

  You know that, you know that.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  I know, but I've also provided from my pharmacy to men because they're like, they're so injured and hurt.

• 1:45:28Dax Shepard?

  I'm all over the place, sorry, ADHD now, but this hit me as a theory the other day. I was reading an article about that sad seasonal affective disorder.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  Affective.

• 1:45:37Dax Shepard?

  Affective disorder.

• 1:45:38Speaker 01

  Yes, which I suffer from.

• 1:45:40Dax Shepard?

  Women suffer from five acts of men. I just read this two days ago and I started thinking, of course it is because y'all were gatherers. And you're gathering when it's sunny and in the wintertime, there's not much to be picked. Now, granted, I understand when we're doing a lot of other stuff, but the trips out, the exercise, the walk, the gathering, the chatting that happened in hunting gathering. All that stuff is diminished during these cold and uh, non-harvesty months. And I think there's some connection there. That's my new theory.

• 1:46:15Speaker 01

  Okay, I like that theory. Now, when did daylight savings start?

• 1:46:20Dax Shepard?

  It started, I wanna, I'm gonna guess, Rob, you're gonna look it up, but I'm gonna guess it started in the 50s and it has something to do with farming.

• 1:46:30Speaker 01

  Oh, right, yeah.

• 1:46:31Dax Shepard?

  It has something to do with farming and some, oh, it has something to do with kids working before school. So I think when school got mandatory, you needed daylight to get the kids to be able to work a little bit before they went out. What is it, Rob?

• 1:46:43Speaker 04

  All right, it was a wartime measure in 1918 for seven months during World War I. The uh, it was added in the interest of adding more daylight hours to conserve energy resources.

• 1:46:55Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:46:55Dax Shepard?

  Wow, I fucking got that way wrong. Why do we both think that thing I just said?

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I heard that too. Maybe you told me.

• 1:47:01Dax Shepard?

  Urban legend.

• 1:47:03Speaker 04

  I think either work.

• 1:47:04Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  No, we're here for facts, Rob.

• 1:47:07Speaker 04

  Early seventies, there was another energy crisis and they passed a bill in Congress to make it permanent.

• 1:47:14Dax Shepard?

  And then Arizona said, fuck that. And Hawaii said, fuck that.

• 1:47:17Speaker 01

  I know. And I wish California had said fuck that.

• 1:47:19Dax Shepard?

  We already said fuck it. I don't know why we can't enact it.

• 1:47:22Speaker 01

  It's, we looked it up once, I forget.

• 1:47:24Dax Shepard?

  But you know, I've changed my tune on it a little bit.

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:47:26Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Don't do this to me.

• 1:47:29Dax Shepard?

  And you made two as you age.

• 1:47:32Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:47:32Dax Shepard?

  Because I now get up earlier.

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:47:35Dax Shepard?

  And I love, my favorite thing is I'm on my bed, meditating and quite often I start, it's dark. And then at the end of that 20 minutes, I open my eyes and I can see the hillside of Griffith Park is now lit up.

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  That's nice.

• 1:47:50Dax Shepard?

  And I love that. And but right before daylight savings kicks in, I'm doing that whole thing in the dark. And I'm like, I'm up and it's depressing to be starting my day in the dark. But you sleep a little later. So you're never dealing with, when it's dark, it doesn't get light till 7:30. You don't really know.

• 1:48:06Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:48:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I've been wanting to bring this up forever.

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:48:10Dax Shepard?

  I wrote it down in my notes of fact check stuff.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:48:13Dax Shepard?

  About a month and a half ago.

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:48:14Dax Shepard?

  As you know, I cut my hair.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:48:16Dax Shepard?

  And my bathroom isn't backlit. It's all frontlit.

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:48:20Dax Shepard?

  So when I work out, I get this crazy view of stuff going on behind my head that I normally can't see.

• 1:48:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:28Dax Shepard?

  And so I have moved a set of scissors into the gym.

• 1:48:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:32Dax Shepard?

  And so you might know that. I, I trim my hair while I'm working out pretty often. I'll always trim it in two different spots and then I get the vacuum out and I vacuum where my hair fell.

• 1:48:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:48:42Dax Shepard?

  But as I'm doing that, I realize I'm seeing your guys' hair everywhere.

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  Oh no.

• 1:48:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like you, you guys are just dumping fucking hair everywhere. And it's long as hell. And you guys never think, I better vacuum that up. So I'm seeing in the gym, there's just like long hairs laying everywhere. And then I think. Why can't I just leave my cuttings on the ground?

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  Ew, no!

• 1:49:03Dax Shepard?

  But isn't that funny? But if you think about it, there's more of y'all's long crazy hairs than my little short trimmings. But I would feel insane to leave those short trimmings, which you probably can't even see.

• 1:49:15Speaker 01

  But it's different.

• 1:49:16Dax Shepard?

  Why isn't it the same?

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  Okay, it's different because our hair isn't falling out in like a big clump on the ground and then there's just a big clump there. It's like one like probably just fell out. And then like later over there, one will fall out.

• 1:49:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and then after a week of that, if I look across my gym floor, there's long hair everywhere. You actually can't see any of my trimmings.

• 1:49:38Speaker 01

  But you can't, I'm not gonna get a vacuum to vacuum up one hair.

• 1:49:42Dax Shepard?

  Uh, thank you. You're right, I know you won't, and none of you will. But, but it's insane.

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:49:48Dax Shepard?

  It's insane that mine's like tinier and I'm like, of course I'm gonna clean up the hair that I put on the ground.

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  Okay, but if like when I get my haircut,

• 1:49:58Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:49:59Speaker 01

  I clean up that hair.

• 1:50:01Dax Shepard?

  Right, because it's an enormous pile.

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  Well, cuz there's, it's, it's in a pile, it's not like it's scattered around.

• 1:50:07Dax Shepard?

  But let's not use hypotheticals, let's use the one that's happening in my gym. So there's these little tiny, like I'm cutting, you know, probably a quarter of an inch off in places.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  But how much, like how much?

• 1:50:16Dax Shepard?

  You can't see it, that's what I'm trying to tell you.

• 1:50:18Speaker 01

  Like eight hairs?

• 1:50:20Dax Shepard?

  You know, whatever, I just do a snap, but my, my, here's my point. We're missing, we're, we've missed the forest for the trees or whatever the saying is.

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  No, that's, these are important questions.

• 1:50:28Dax Shepard?

  You can't even see where my hair is on the ground after I trim.

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:50:32Dax Shepard?

  And yet, I know, I would feel insane to not get the vacuum out and vacuum where I was standing. Because I know he just cut my hair over the floor.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  So are you suggesting women should, should carry a, a vacuum around?

• 1:50:47Dax Shepard?

  A little mini vacuum? Let's see how your bag turns out. If you can figure out how to get a dust buster in there without a big bulge in it, so it doesn't look like you're carrying around the...

• 1:50:56Speaker 04

  Well, the cumulative length is probably similar, too.

• 1:50:58Dax Shepard?

  Probably less, Rob.

• 1:51:00Speaker 04

  The cumulative length of Dax's hair versus long.

• 1:51:04Dax Shepard?

  One of your strands.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  It's like, if you walk, if you walk through and you see a big clump.

• 1:51:11Dax Shepard?

  But you don't, that's, listen.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  I just wanna see it for myself to see what the, what, if I can see the hair.

• 1:51:16Dax Shepard?

  This is where I'm going with all of it. I'm not asking you to do anything.

• 1:51:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:51:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay? I'm trying to see if I could just unethically cut my hair and then just forget about it. Because there's already fucking hair everywhere and I can see the other hair and no one seems to care about that. So, why am I so worried about my little shavings that you can't even see? I'm, I'm questioning, I was like having a moral dilemma up there.

• 1:51:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:51:38Dax Shepard?

  Wondering if I'm free to just cut and run.

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  It's your house, you can do whatever you want.

• 1:51:43Dax Shepard?

  I know, but I wanted your opinion on it.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  I mean, look, I guess if you can't see it, you could leave it.

• 1:51:49Dax Shepard?

  And we're living with the other hair that's very visible.

• 1:51:52Speaker 01

  Until the whole space gets vacuumed, right? Like, that's the, that's the thought. You shouldn't probably never vacuum.

• 1:51:59Dax Shepard?

  Well, no.

• 1:51:59Speaker 01

  But I guess, then, sure, I guess you could leave it until the weekly vacuum.

• 1:52:05Dax Shepard?

  I just was vacuuming, I'm like, this is kinda crazy, why do I even do this? I can't see my hair and I see all this other hair.

• 1:52:10Speaker 01

  I have a question. Now, if you're cooking.

• 1:52:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  And little, like, you know, I don't know, salt gets on the floor or something, just a little bit, like a one or two. Do you vacuum it up?

• 1:52:21Dax Shepard?

  Not for two grains of salt.

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. So, it's kind of like that, like, when you're cooking, it's like, sometimes things get on the floor. I don't vacuum after every time I cook.

• 1:52:31Dax Shepard?

  I know, which we probably should, I guess.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  But then, yeah, by the time, the end of the week, it's like, yeah, the floor's dirty, like, it needs.

• 1:52:38Dax Shepard?

  You walk in there barefoot and you've got basically, um, seasoning, like, seasoned fries.

• 1:52:42Speaker 01

  So, I think if you're comfortable with it and your family's comfortable with it, you can wait during, for the weekly vacuum.

• 1:52:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, man. It just felt like a pointless endeavor.

• 1:52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:55Dax Shepard?

  When we were already accepting of all this two foot long hair that's everywhere.

• 1:52:58Speaker 01

  The issue is, I think the women probably, unless it's like how I imagined it, in like a big clump.

• 1:53:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  That's bad, right? But if it's like you're saying you can't see it, I don't think, I have a prob- I don't think anyone has a problem with it except you.

• 1:53:15Dax Shepard?

  You should see what I pull out of our drain. I call it fishing.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:53:20Dax Shepard?

  And about once a year, I'm in the shower and I'm noticing, huh, this stuff's starting to back up a little bit.

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:25Dax Shepard?

  Like, the water's not flowing the way it should. Time to go fishing. And I have a fishing rod I've created. It's a coat hanger, unwound, and then I bent up a little hook at the bottom. I can get it down in the drain. And takes a bunch of, and then I twist.

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:53:39Dax Shepard?

  And then I get it out. And Lincoln generally will join me, because she likes to get, because it's, what gets pulled out of there?

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:53:46Dax Shepard?

  You guys.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  A whole possum.

• 1:53:47Dax Shepard?

  No, it's a mouse. Like, back to your water, fear.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:51Dax Shepard?

  It's a mouse and it smells so gross and it also turns into like oil. Like, somehow it's decomposing. It's always like in a black tar.

• 1:53:58Speaker 01

  I know. I don't get that. But let me tell you something. I think you need to teach the girls in your house about hair walls.

• 1:54:04Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:54:05Speaker 01

  Yes!

• 1:54:06Dax Shepard?

  No, because they're not going to then clean the wall.

• 1:54:10Speaker 01

  No, they, they have to clean the wall.

• 1:54:13Dax Shepard?

  They have to, but they're not going to. I'm like trying, there's like what they should do and what's gonna happen.

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  Okay, but would you, okay, so then would you, Dax, rather have hair on the wall or hair in the drain for you to have to pull out as a rat?

• 1:54:25Dax Shepard?

  If I have to pick between cleaning the wall every time I shower.

• 1:54:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:30Dax Shepard?

  No, my resentment would get, it's like, motherfuckers, you put your hair on the wall, take it then to the trash. I, like, it'd be a daily resentment, probably.

• 1:54:37Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:54:38Dax Shepard?

  Versus, once a year, I go fishing.

• 1:54:40Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:54:40Dax Shepard?

  And there is, I must admit.

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  You like it.

• 1:54:43Dax Shepard?

  Well, there's a reward. Like, when you pull that rat out of there.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:47Dax Shepard?

  You're like, oh my God, I'm so glad it's out of there. It's the same thing. I don't understand what's going on. I need to talk to an evolutionary biologist. When you pop a great pimple.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:57Dax Shepard?

  The amount I think about the moment it popped. For the rest of the day.

• 1:55:02Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't have that.

• 1:55:03Dax Shepard?

  You don't? I just keep going back to back to the moment. Like, there's such a wave of relief you've gotten that out.

• 1:55:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:11Dax Shepard?

  And I'm talking a pop, like a satisfying moment. It's like, oh, thank God I did that. Usually you regret it. You're like, I shouldn't do this. But occasionally it goes really well.

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:19Dax Shepard?

  Just went really well for me at the hotel.

• 1:55:21Speaker 01

  Oh, that's nice.

• 1:55:22Dax Shepard?

  Night before Golden Globes. And I just kept thinking, I was even thinking about it two days later. Like, I just want that moment to keep happening over and over. Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop.

• 1:55:33Speaker 01

  Don't say that, because then you don't. But you don't, you don't want your skin to be bad enough that. See, I think this is skin privilege, personally. Because, because I don't have that. Because it happens enough. Like, it's not like if it goes.

• 1:55:51Dax Shepard?

  Do you not get that huge wave?

• 1:55:53Speaker 01

  In the moment, it's like, thank God it's out. Thank God.

• 1:55:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. We get that.

• 1:55:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's the recurring thing that I think is skin privilege. Because like, I know that's coming. I'm doing the opposite. I'm like, I just like, hope I can get a lot of time in between the next time I have to do that.

• 1:56:10Dax Shepard?

  I don't want more, but I love that moment. So much. There's something going on.

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, this isn't supposed to be here and I got rid of it. And now I look better.

• 1:56:24Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:56:29Dax Shepard?

  We are supported by HP. My mental to-do list is already full. Uh, fix something around the house, refill prescriptions. Remember to text someone back. Keep track of a million little life things. The last thing I want on that list is, oh, don't forget printer ink.

• 1:56:45Speaker 01

  No, it's horrible.

• 1:56:46Dax Shepard?

  It's the bane of everyone's existence. What if you could just take that off your list for years?

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  The dream.

• 1:56:52Dax Shepard?

  That's the idea behind the HP Smart Tank printer from America's most trusted printer brand. Instead of those tiny cartridges that always seem to run out at the worst time, the HP Smart Tank uses a refillable ink tank and it comes with up to three years of ink included. It's built to be simple. The easiest tank printer you'll ever use with the best print quality, period. It's the last printer you'll ever need. I've definitely been in this situation where something that should take two minutes turns into a whole thing. Like I need to print tickets and get out the door, but then I realize I'm out of ink and have to deal with it right then. With the HP Smart Tank, that's just not something you're dealing with all the time. It's one of those things that just works when you need it to.

• 1:57:33Dax Shepard?

  If you want to take one more thing off your mental to do list, search for HP Smart Tank.

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  So, wait, what were we saying before skin? Oh, the rat. Yeah, okay. So hair walls are great for the listener. You wash and like when you condition and it's like it's coming out, you know, it's coming out. You feel it in your, you're shedding and you like grab it in your hands and you stick it on the wall. And then you do that throughout the shower. It's important. This is important stuff because then you're not clogging your drain and.

• 1:58:11Dax Shepard?

  But do you take it off the wall?

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  Yes. Sometimes I, okay, sometimes I don't, but I live by myself. I get, that's my privilege.

• 1:58:17Dax Shepard?

  Did you rub boogers on your headboard?

• 1:58:19Speaker 01

  No, I don't want to talk about.

• 1:58:22Dax Shepard?

  I did not. I hate the hair wall too. You hate it? But you put boogers somewhere around? No, Kleenex. Oh, fuck, we didn't have Kleenex. What, you guys were Rockefeller's? I would, you know what I would do? Kids, a lot of the kids I knew, they were just rubbing it. Fucking, they're disgusting. I would lean over and put it on the metal railing under my bed so no one would ever see it.

• 1:58:41Speaker 01

  I want to cut this because this is so disgusting. And yes, I did that.

• 1:58:45Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you put it under the railing?

• 1:58:46Speaker 01

  I put it like under the bed. Yeah.

• 1:58:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every kid in America must be doing this. I bet like every kid's bed is just full of boogers. I would just flick it on the carpet.

• 1:58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, some people do carpet. I never did that. I wonder what age you outgrow the booger under the bed.

• 1:59:03Dax Shepard?

  When you can afford Kleenex.

• 1:59:05Speaker 01

  Oh, but I don't have Kleenex. I do have Kleenex by the other side of my bed, but I don't use it.

• 1:59:10Dax Shepard?

  Then what are you doing with your boogers?

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  I don't get, I don't do that anymore.

• 1:59:13Dax Shepard?

  I don't get nearly enough boogers. I miss them so much. When you're a kid, you have boogers all the time. I never have boogers now.

• 1:59:19Speaker 01

  Maybe it's because you're, it probably is because we were picking them out and so it was creating like more and more and more and more.

• 1:59:26Dax Shepard?

  Like my throat clearing.

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and now when you don't touch it, it's just like, it's fine.

• 1:59:31Dax Shepard?

  Once in a blue moon, I'm digging around, because God, I inspect all the time.

• 1:59:34Speaker 01

  Oh, you do?

• 1:59:35Dax Shepard?

  I'm constantly in my nose, like, looking for one. There's never any.

• 1:59:38Speaker 01

  It's often on camera, by the way.

• 1:59:40Dax Shepard?

  Me looking.

• 1:59:42Speaker 01

  You do touch your nose a lot.

• 1:59:43Dax Shepard?

  No, I don't.

• 1:59:44Speaker 01

  Yes, stop!

• 1:59:46Dax Shepard?

  Well, my fucking nostrils, like, no, you know, I can put two fingers in my nostrils, no prob. Most people can't do that.

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can't do that. Well, I can almost out.

• 1:59:55Dax Shepard?

  I mean, I have the biggest nostrils. You remember my people, Teen People magazine shoot when I was, yeah, skydiving? I looked like Porky the Pig.

• 2:00:04Speaker 01

  You told us about it, but we never, we couldn't find it and we shouldn't find it.

• 2:00:07Dax Shepard?

  No, I hope. If anyone has it, please burn it.

• 2:00:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:11Dax Shepard?

  Or tuck it under your booger railing, under your bed.

• 2:00:14Speaker 01

  No, don't. Guys, I don't want to talk about boogers. For some reason of all, I know. For some reason of all the things, we talk about so much gross stuff and I'm actually, I'm fine with all of it, but

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  there is something about boogers that is disgusting to me.

• 2:00:33Dax Shepard?

  To you, yeah.

• 2:00:34Speaker 01

  And I don't know what, where that line is drawn, like, why?

• 2:00:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  Probably because when I was a kid, like, boogers are the thing that makes you gross.

• 2:00:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they're disgusting on other people, but that's just like farts. Reading so many new articles that it's really good to smell your farts. I sent you one and said you're gonna die.

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  No, it didn't. Not to smell them.

• 2:00:56Dax Shepard?

  What did it say?

• 2:00:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:00:57Dax Shepard?

  It said the gas is good for your body.

• 2:00:59Speaker 01

  To rel, it says it's, it, holding in farts is bad.

• 2:01:02Dax Shepard?

  I sent you another one. There's some, yeah, there's some chemical compound that they have figured out is good for you to breathe in.

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 2:01:10Dax Shepard?

  And I said you're gonna die if you don't start farting and breathing them.

• 2:01:13Speaker 01

  I'm not doing it. I'd rather, I'd rather die, I guess.

• 2:01:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  This is where we're at.

• 2:01:19Dax Shepard?

  I know I've already told this, but it reminds me of the time I went to my brother's field hockey game when I was like six and I was sitting on this log. And in fact, it was a telephone pole laid on its side that was a makeshift bench in the field.

• 2:01:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:01:30Dax Shepard?

  And, uh, and I'm sitting on it and I'm watching my brother play field hockey. Another little boy sat down next to me. He was my age. Or just, he's probably watching his brother.

• 2:01:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:39Dax Shepard?

  And then I don't know, and I was just looking forward and he goes, you eat your boogers.

• 2:01:42Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:01:43Dax Shepard?

  Just, that was the icebreaker. Eat, eat your boogers. And I didn't. I'm not judgmental of it, but I didn't eat my boogers. And I was like, no. And he's like, no? And I'm like, no.

• 2:01:55Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:01:56Dax Shepard?

  I do.

• 2:01:57Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:01:57Dax Shepard?

  Like he had to get it off his chest or something.

• 2:02:01Dax Shepard?

  Maybe I've always, Monica, I'm about to compliment myself.

• 2:02:04Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 2:02:05Dax Shepard?

  I've always had this skill. Maybe people just wanna tell me.

• 2:02:07Speaker 01

  You've always had this skill bringing out people's vulnerabilities.

• 2:02:10Dax Shepard?

  I didn't even do anything. There's just something about my face where people are like, look at this piece of shit. I'll try, I'll tell him anything. He's not gonna be judgmental of me.

• 2:02:16Speaker 01

  Maybe it's your nostrils. Ding ding ding.

• 2:02:18Dax Shepard?

  Could have been. But what a great moment in childhood.

• 2:02:22Speaker 01

  I liked that boy because you know what? After you said no, he could have said, me either.

• 2:02:25Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:02:26Speaker 01

  My brother does. That's what I was asking.

• 2:02:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he was so into it. He was probably like, oh, I can't wait to talk about how the, the joy of doing this. I can't wait to find out this guy's doing the same thing.

• 2:02:35Speaker 01

  Like your joy of pulling out the rat from the drain. It's weird. But anyway.

• 2:02:40Dax Shepard?

  I do wanna show you a picture of the rabbit. You don't wanna see it.

• 2:02:42Speaker 01

  I don't like rats.

• 2:02:43Dax Shepard?

  I know. No one in my house wanted to see the picture either. I was so bummed. Cause I wanna, I, that's like the closest I can get to going and killing a gazelle. Like I want my family to reward me that I was willing to do the gross thing. Cause that's the guy's job is to like handle the, that stuff. So if I do it, I want everyone to go like, thank you, dad. We didn't wanna touch that, but you're brave enough to do it.

• 2:03:06Speaker 01

  You know what, what they would do that for? What they would say thank you for?

• 2:03:09Dax Shepard?

  What?

• 2:03:09Speaker 01

  Is if you clean the hair wall every day.

• 2:03:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you're still on this hair wall.

• 2:03:13Speaker 01

  Yes. The hair wall is, is important and, um, it, it preserves the drain. Sometimes it's cool. Like at the end of the, at the end of the shower, you're like, oh my God, like so much hair.

• 2:03:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:28Speaker 01

  And then you're like, oh no, I'm in perimenopause. Cause all this hair is coming out. And then. You forget about that the next day and then it happens again.

• 2:03:36Dax Shepard?

  Once you have your period and it's healthy and.

• 2:03:39Speaker 01

  Well, you still have your period during perimenopause. Anyway, um, hair walk. Do you think I could, okay, maybe I could have a product, a new product.

• 2:03:49Dax Shepard?

  Well, I was just gonna say, why don't you have a suction cup with a little bucket on there?

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:03:54Dax Shepard?

  That you can just dump the hair in there.

• 2:03:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just like more fun with, cause it's not even about.

• 2:04:00Dax Shepard?

  You like to go smack.

• 2:04:01Speaker 01

  It's efficient, cause you're just like, you're doing this and then you just like.

• 2:04:04Dax Shepard?

  She's running her hands through her hair and then she's waiting over to the wall.

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  Cause my eyes are closed because of the water.

• 2:04:08Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 2:04:09Speaker 01

  Um.

• 2:04:09Dax Shepard?

  Are you gonna have Duck and do this in your new fancy bathroom?

• 2:04:12Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:04:13Dax Shepard?

  Oh my god.

• 2:04:13Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna clog up the drain in my new fancy.

• 2:04:16Dax Shepard?

  That's true.

• 2:04:16Speaker 01

  And the, the primary bath has blue tile, so I bet my black hair on that blue tile would be so nice.

• 2:04:24Dax Shepard?

  Really nice. I have a humongous thing. I have to pause this. I thought we were doing this tomorrow, so I had prepared for this, but now I'm remembering I have something enormous. Can you give me one second?

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:38Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I'm back.

• 2:04:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:04:42Dax Shepard?

  Groot.

• 2:04:44Speaker 01

  What happened?

• 2:04:44Dax Shepard?

  Got fan mail.

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Hi, Groot.

• 2:04:48Dax Shepard?

  And Delta is so pumped.

• 2:04:50Speaker 01

  Oh my god, she's becoming a stage small.

• 2:04:53Dax Shepard?

  I came home yesterday and I said, where's LT? And Kristen said she's upstairs because Groot got fan mail. And they were up there going through the fan mail together.

• 2:05:02Speaker 01

  What is it?

• 2:05:04Dax Shepard?

  Groot was sent by Joseph Lopez, a book.

• 2:05:09Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:05:10Dax Shepard?

  Yes, it's called Maeve and Charlie Meet the Neighbors.

• 2:05:14Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:05:14Dax Shepard?

  It's about a dog and I guess it's a squirrel or a chipmunk or a ring tailed lemur.

• 2:05:20Speaker 01

  I'm not good at animals, as you know.

• 2:05:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay, um, but he got his first bit of fan mail.

• 2:05:27Speaker 01

  Was there like a letter there?

• 2:05:29Dax Shepard?

  And now Groot is, he's famous.

• 2:05:31Speaker 01

  Oh my god, Groot.

• 2:05:32Dax Shepard?

  And he hasn't acted the least bit different, but this book has been dedicated to Groot.

• 2:05:37Speaker 01

  It says, "For Groot much love."

• 2:05:41Speaker 01

  That is so cute.

• 2:05:43Dax Shepard?

  Joseph Lopez, thank you.

• 2:05:45Speaker 01

  That's so sweet.

• 2:05:46Dax Shepard?

  This made everyone's day. This is so sweet.

• 2:05:50Speaker 01

  I am, I'm a little, I'm concerned.

• 2:05:53Dax Shepard?

  I already predicted this in my head. What's your concern?

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  He's a bitch kid.

• 2:05:57Dax Shepard?

  He's handling it so well. He doesn't act entitled at all.

• 2:06:01Speaker 01

  Not yet.

• 2:06:01Dax Shepard?

  He's completely humble.

• 2:06:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:06:03Dax Shepard?

  He's humbled by the gesture. He's more humbled post-fan mail than pre-fan mail.

• 2:06:09Speaker 01

  Okay, I just, you know, it's like child stars is a tricky thing.

• 2:06:12Dax Shepard?

  It is a tricky thing, but if you've got great parents.

• 2:06:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:16Dax Shepard?

  Who have been through this.

• 2:06:18Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 2:06:19Dax Shepard?

  That's helpful.

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  You mean great grandparents?

• 2:06:22Dax Shepard?

  Grandparents. I'm his grandpa.

• 2:06:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:06:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, his grandpa who he lives with, though.

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  Right, but you're his grandpa.

• 2:06:27Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I'm his only male in his life and he really looks up to me because he's a boy in a tree.

• 2:06:32Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess since you did drugs, maybe you could talk to him.

• 2:06:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:36Speaker 01

  But like, I just.

• 2:06:37Dax Shepard?

  About what ones are good?

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  See, that's my worry.

• 2:06:41Dax Shepard?

  No, he's not, as you know, he has a lot of different challenges because his cardiovascular system is half tree, half boy.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:49Dax Shepard?

  He breathes carbon dioxide and oxygen.

• 2:06:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:53Dax Shepard?

  So I don't think he should inhale anything.

• 2:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't want him to do anything.

• 2:06:58Dax Shepard?

  I wouldn't mind that he does mushrooms and expands his mind.

• 2:07:01Speaker 01

  As a kid?

• 2:07:02Dax Shepard?

  No, when he's an adult.

• 2:07:05Speaker 01

  I know, so you need to talk to him about that because he's going to have the opportunity young.

• 2:07:09Dax Shepard?

  Because he's famous.

• 2:07:10Speaker 01

  Yes, and drugs are going to come to him.

• 2:07:13Dax Shepard?

  But he's not Drew Barrymore. He's not going to nightclubs. He just is here at the house.

• 2:07:16Speaker 01

  I'm just worried he'll start sneaking out.

• 2:07:18Dax Shepard?

  Hanging out with other celebrity kids?

• 2:07:20Speaker 01

  Celebrity kid trees.

• 2:07:21Dax Shepard?

  Who are the hot celebrity kids now? I feel like when we were young, there were so many celebrity kids and I don't feel like there's a lot now.

• 2:07:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, like.

• 2:07:26Dax Shepard?

  There were the Stranger Things kids, but now they're adults.

• 2:07:29Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 2:07:31Dax Shepard?

  Did you say you saw one that he was hot?

• 2:07:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's hot. Yeah, he's not a kid anymore. He's thirty three. No, the adolescent boy, the boy from Adolescents.

• 2:07:41Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:07:42Speaker 01

  He's

• 2:07:43Dax Shepard?

  He's a child star.

• 2:07:43Speaker 01

  Kid, kid star.

• 2:07:45Dax Shepard?

  He's won every award they make.

• 2:07:46Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, who else?

• 2:07:48Dax Shepard?

  What happens is a few child stars go AWOL and then we just think all child, but look, I was friends with Josh Hutcherson and Jonah Bobo. I'm, I'm, all the ones I knew have done just fine.

• 2:08:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 2:08:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay, this brings up my last point and I'm done with points.

• 2:08:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:08:06Dax Shepard?

  The more that the film business has eroded, which it has so dramatically.

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 2:08:12Dax Shepard?

  The Oscars means less and less and less. I was even thinking like, what, who even comes now? You got like two good movies that I remember, four good movies.

• 2:08:21Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:08:21Dax Shepard?

  It's, it's really like more and more that show's gonna mean nothing.

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:08:26Dax Shepard?

  Cause of the movies that are getting made, they're like big spectacle movies.

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:30Dax Shepard?

  And then there's a couple of movies no one sees. There's not like this huge, you know, treasure trove of thirty five to sixty million dollar movies that were made. Your, you know, your Michael Clayton's, all these incredible movies that we all love. They're, they don't exist. There's really tiny independent movies and then there's a couple of big movies. And just all in all, it means less and less and yet that's still somehow got the most cachet and it makes less and less sense now. Like, are they gonna use, are they gonna incorporate TV or what?

• 2:08:59Speaker 01

  Well, no, I still think it used to, it used to still kind of be that, like there would be indie, there'd be, you know, critical darlings.

• 2:09:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:10Speaker 01

  And then one or two like big movies. And I think that's gonna happen, that hap, that's gonna happen this year.

• 2:09:16Dax Shepard?

  But the point is, is in two thousand and four, there were thirty five movies that all did well, that everyone saw, that big stars were in.

• 2:09:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:28Dax Shepard?

  And now there's about five. I mean, it just really has just quantity has shrank by eighty five percent. And it was a real shootout. It's like, right now, it's like, you know, it's really between a couple of movies. There's only a couple of big, great movies. It means less and less.

• 2:09:46Speaker 01

  But it's, I guess then it's like getting into that club, like being a critical darling.

• 2:09:53Dax Shepard?

  But at what point do we're like, like certainly viewership, like no one's even seen the couple of movies that they're gonna have up there. You know, back then you like, you had a bunch of favorite movies. You saw ten excellent movies that year. You wanted to see which one was gonna win best picture. It's like, right now, it's like you either want Marty Supreme or One Battle After Another. Like your, here's your fifty fifty shot.

• 2:10:14Speaker 01

  Well, no, I mean Hamlet won the Golden Globe and people really like that, but also it's supposed to be so sad.

• 2:10:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:22Speaker 01

  Um, and you know, Train Dreams.

• 2:10:25Dax Shepard?

  People like it. It's just, well, also Train Dreams is on Netflix, so it's like, that's confusing. Will that be at the Academy Awards? I don't think so.

• 2:10:33Speaker 01

  No, of course. Yeah, it was in theaters.

• 2:10:34Dax Shepard?

  But again, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a joke release to get, to qualify for that. It's just not, it wasn't in three thousand theaters the way it would have been in, in the, in the early two thousands.

• 2:10:44Speaker 01

  Mattersness, like Sentimental Value also will be nominated. Great movie.

• 2:10:50Dax Shepard?

  No other choice.

• 2:10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I haven't seen that.

• 2:10:52Dax Shepard?

  This amount of movies came out in one month in two thousand and two.

• 2:10:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:10:57Dax Shepard?

  Like from September to December, there was fifteen well-funded, beautifully shot, podium-seeking films. And so are they gonna either invite in what people are watching? Which is TV.

• 2:11:17Speaker 01

  Oh, Sinners will be.

• 2:11:18Dax Shepard?

  Sinners, yeah, that's true. That's a good one. Um, you know, will they, will they, will they widen their net? Cause they're getting less and less relevant.

• 2:11:27Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 2:11:28Dax Shepard?

  People aren't gathering around talking about movies. Like Hamlet's probably amazing. People in Oklahoma are not at the supermarket chatting about it right now, guarantee it. But people were at the supermarket talking about many of the movies that were coming out in the two thousands. The way they're now at the supermarket talking about Stranger Things.

• 2:11:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:11:46Dax Shepard?

  And every other great show that's out.

• 2:11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. What's the most popular movie box office wise this past year, twenty twenty five?

• 2:11:56Dax Shepard?

  Wicked.

• 2:11:57Speaker 01

  Right, which will probably get a nomination.

• 2:11:59Dax Shepard?

  Sinners, uh.

• 2:12:02Dax Shepard?

  Uh, what was in the box office category? They have that now. See, they were smart enough to add that. They're like, okay, this thing has changed. So we gotta recognize what's working.

• 2:12:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:12:11Dax Shepard?

  Whereas to me, the Academy Awards is just like, no, we're this thing. It's very prestigious, but it's meaning less and less and less. And I just wonder if they're gonna evolve.

• 2:12:20Speaker 04

  Minecraft, Lilo and Stitch, Superman, Jurassic World, and Zootopia 2.

• 2:12:25Dax Shepard?

  It's all franchises, virtually.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  Superman, good for our friend.

• 2:12:30Dax Shepard?

  James Gunn.

• 2:12:31Speaker 01

  Friend of the pot.

• 2:12:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I like James Gunn.

• 2:12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a great episode.

• 2:12:35Dax Shepard?

  And the Emmys now, people wanna know the Emmys. They have 10 favorite shows.

• 2:12:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:12:39Dax Shepard?

  The Emmys is what the Academy Awards was.

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  You said 2004 Oscars?

• 2:12:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what do we got?

• 2:12:45Speaker 01

  Let's look. Okay, best picture nominees. Master and Commander.

• 2:12:51Dax Shepard?

  Huge movie.

• 2:12:52Speaker 01

  I didn't see it.

• 2:12:52Dax Shepard?

  And original, not a franchise, not IP.

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  Master and Commander, The Far Side of the World. I have to sneeze, but it's not coming. Seabiscuit.

• 2:13:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, original, huge, movie stars.

• 2:13:03Speaker 01

  Lost in Translation.

• 2:13:05Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Bill Murray, Scar Joe.

• 2:13:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:13:11Dax Shepard?

  What a movie.

• 2:13:12Speaker 04

  These are all so low, though, on the, uh, box office.

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  See, that's what.

• 2:13:15Dax Shepard?

  No, not the first two.

• 2:13:17Speaker 04

  Uh, 33 for Master and Commander.

• 2:13:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay, what was the second one?

• 2:13:21Speaker 01

  Seabiscuit.

• 2:13:22Dax Shepard?

  Seabiscuit, $200 million movie.

• 2:13:24Speaker 01

  Okay, so.

• 2:13:24Speaker 04

  17.

• 2:13:26Dax Shepard?

  Seabiscuit did not make 17 million dollars.

• 2:13:28Speaker 04

  No, no, it made 120, 17th.

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  17th in the box office that year.

• 2:13:32Dax Shepard?

  Still, hundreds of millions of dollars globally.

• 2:13:34Speaker 01

  But he's saying on the li- like, it's not just the best, the biggest movies.

• 2:13:39Speaker 04

  It's usually not correlated.

• 2:13:41Speaker 01

  You're just saying more people saw it, saw movies back then.

• 2:13:44Dax Shepard?

  The movies were well-funded, they're visually stunning, the, um, the craftsmanship, they have the budget for it. The quality of the movies has fallen.

• 2:13:53Speaker 01

  I, I disagree with you on that. I think the movies that were nominated this year are very high quality and, and good. Whether people see them or not, I don't know, but they are good movies.

• 2:14:08Dax Shepard?

  What's the budget of Hamlet?

• 2:14:10Dax Shepard?

  See if you can find that. Or any of these really, other than a one battle got a budget and that's because of Leo.

• 2:14:16Speaker 04

  Thirty to thirty-five million.

• 2:14:18Dax Shepard?

  For Hamlet?

• 2:14:19Speaker 04

  For Hamlet, yeah.

• 2:14:20Speaker 01

  That's not tiny.

• 2:14:21Dax Shepard?

  It's not terrible, but it's not great. I mean, generally, these these high-end dramas were like forty to sixty. It doesn't matter. Okay.

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, anyway, also Lord of the Rings is on there.

• 2:14:31Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I mean, come on, Lord of the Rings.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  And then Mystic River.

• 2:14:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, Sean Penn. Fucking Clint East. No, uh.

• 2:14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:40Speaker 01

  But they were like, yeah, people went, just people went to the movies more.

• 2:14:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and so people were invested. So like, they had fallen in love with that movie. And then they want to see if it's gonna win.

• 2:14:52Speaker 01

  But I think with Netflix and stuff, like,

• 2:14:56Speaker 01

  people are still seeing it. They're just seeing them in their house.

• 2:14:59Dax Shepard?

  And great.

• 2:15:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:00Dax Shepard?

  So what I'm saying is, instead of doing this like fake, we're gonna release it in thirteen screens for one weekend, so we qualify. That's just a loophole. We would acknowledge. The real distribution is on Netflix. So just if you're the Academy Awards, even if you don't want to include TV, forget this fucking distribution thing.

• 2:15:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:15:19Dax Shepard?

  Include the ones that, there's other great movies on other streamers that didn't do the theatrical distribution. Amazon wouldn't put out Roadhouse on five theaters so they could be, you know, there's a lot of these movies, but they're not even playing that game.

• 2:15:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:32Dax Shepard?

  So it's like Academy Awards, how about you fucking get over this distribution thing? So just to get more, I mean, if they want to save this thing.

• 2:15:38Speaker 01

  Right, I guess that's true. I, um, but I like that they're putting movies into theaters. I, I've, I saw a, I saw a fair amount of movies last year.

• 2:15:48Dax Shepard?

  Let me be clear. I wish everything, I wish it were two thousand.

• 2:15:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:52Dax Shepard?

  But because it's not, and that's not what's happening, who's, why watch the Academy Awards?

• 2:15:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're probably gonna need to.

• 2:15:59Dax Shepard?

  That's my whole point.

• 2:16:01Speaker 01

  Add in the, the streamers.

• 2:16:03Dax Shepard?

  They're gonna have to do something, yeah.

• 2:16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, I just looked up 2000. This is like now fun.

• 2:16:08Dax Shepard?

  Okay, yeah, what's happening in 2000?

• 2:16:09Speaker 01

  Okay, Cider House rules.

• 2:16:11Dax Shepard?

  Great.

• 2:16:12Speaker 01

  I didn't see that.

• 2:16:13Dax Shepard?

  Forty-fifth.

• 2:16:14Speaker 01

  Toby.

• 2:16:15Dax Shepard?

  But again, Rob, even Forty-Fifth is sixty times more box office than any movie that's nominated, other than.

• 2:16:22Speaker 01

  Do we have that? And Marty Supreme's doing well.

• 2:16:24Dax Shepard?

  It is.

• 2:16:25Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:16:25Dax Shepard?

  Cause of that kid.

• 2:16:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:16:27Dax Shepard?

  Timmy. I admire how much he worked to get that movie to work.

• 2:16:30Speaker 01

  He did, he pushed hard. Then we have Green Mile, great movie.

• 2:16:33Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Tom Hanks.

• 2:16:34Speaker 01

  Sam Rockwell, friend of the pod.

• 2:16:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he was great, crazy.

• 2:16:37Speaker 01

  That's a great movie. Sixth Sense.

• 2:16:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my god, M. X.

• 2:16:40Speaker 01

  Great movie.

• 2:16:41Dax Shepard?

  Breakthrough movie.

• 2:16:43Speaker 01

  Such a good movie. Um, The Insider. That's Michael Mann.

• 2:16:47Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, Michael Mann.

• 2:16:48Speaker 01

  I didn't see it.

• 2:16:49Dax Shepard?

  So good about, uh, the Philip Morris Sixty Minutes debacle.

• 2:16:54Speaker 01

  I'll watch it. Um.

• 2:16:56Dax Shepard?

  Kurt Russell.

• 2:16:57Speaker 01

  Guess, can you, okay, I'll give you a hint.

• 2:16:59Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:17:00Speaker 01

  See if you can guess the last movie. It's all, it's, this is a, this is a tough year.

• 2:17:04Dax Shepard?

  They were all tough, that's my point.

• 2:17:06Speaker 01

  You're right, I guess you're right. Um, this movie is scandalous.

• 2:17:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Eyes Wide Shut.

• 2:17:14Speaker 01

  No. It has, it had someone in it who's now been cancelled.

• 2:17:19Dax Shepard?

  Kevin, whatever his fucking name is. Spacey. Spacey.

• 2:17:22Speaker 01

  The big one.

• 2:17:23Dax Shepard?

  Seven? No.

• 2:17:24Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:17:25Dax Shepard?

  Uh, Usual Suspects.

• 2:17:26Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:17:26Dax Shepard?

  Uh.

• 2:17:27Speaker 01

  Scandalous.

• 2:17:29Dax Shepard?

  Is this where he got sexually harassed at work by Demi Moore?

• 2:17:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:17:32Dax Shepard?

  That's Michael Douglas.

• 2:17:33Speaker 01

  There's two women.

• 2:17:35Dax Shepard?

  Oh, sexy women?

• 2:17:36Speaker 01

  And, well, there's three women.

• 2:17:39Dax Shepard?

  How do I, how do I think I know what it is? You know what it is? What is it? American Beauty?

• 2:17:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:17:44Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my favorite.

• 2:17:46Speaker 01

  Great movie.

• 2:17:46Dax Shepard?

  I love that movie.

• 2:17:47Speaker 01

  What about Ninety-Eight?

• 2:17:48Dax Shepard?

  God, did I love American Beauty. That is such a good movie.

• 2:17:52Speaker 01

  Oh, oh!

• 2:17:54Speaker 01

  Oh!

• 2:17:54Dax Shepard?

  Oh, God. Okay. We're gonna have to cap it at here.

• 2:17:58Speaker 01

  I wanna do one more!

• 2:17:59Dax Shepard?

  I know, maybe we'll do, we'll do, well, maybe this will be a runner we do.

• 2:18:01Speaker 01

  Okay, but can I do one more?

• 2:18:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, do one more. That's why I said, here's where we cap it.

• 2:18:05Speaker 01

  Okay, cuz I just did a random year. I didn't even think about it. Good Will Hunting.

• 2:18:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I know this. I should know. This is 96.

• 2:18:12Speaker 01

  Ni- this is 98, which I also thought was too late.

• 2:18:15Dax Shepard?

  God, I thought I-

• 2:18:16Speaker 01

  I know. It's weird.

• 2:18:18Dax Shepard?

  I'm very confused by that.

• 2:18:19Speaker 01

  Okay, hold on, let me, now I'm nervous, but this is what AI, um-

• 2:18:23Speaker 04

  No, 98's right.

• 2:18:24Speaker 01

  Okay. This year, this year is so hard.

• 2:18:29Dax Shepard?

  Good Will Hunting.

• 2:18:30Speaker 01

  Titanic, as good as it gets.

• 2:18:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, James Al.

• 2:18:36Speaker 01

  Fucking great movie.

• 2:18:37Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:18:38Speaker 01

  The Full Monty.

• 2:18:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, show it.

• 2:18:42Speaker 01

  An L.A. Confidential.

• 2:18:43Dax Shepard?

  Fuck!

• 2:18:44Speaker 01

  This is-

• 2:18:45Dax Shepard?

  Man, Russell Crowe was on fire.

• 2:18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, he really was. This is an impossible year. I guess, God, you are, you're right. All these years we're putting in, all the movies, at least three movies are like-

• 2:18:58Dax Shepard?

  Nail biters.

• 2:18:58Speaker 01

  How will we know?

• 2:18:59Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 2:19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. It's different. It's insanely different. And I was like, I don't know, yeah, there's-

• 2:19:05Speaker 01

  Cuz even if you want, like, I want it to be sentimental value because I, that movie is so beautiful. And there's also a movie called Sorry Baby that I think is incredible, but they're smaller. Like, they definitely, yeah.

• 2:19:18Dax Shepard?

  There are things that would have been at the Independent Spirits Awards that year.

• 2:19:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:19:22Dax Shepard?

  And they would have been in the smaller, you know.

• 2:19:24Speaker 01

  Or they might have made it in, but it would have been like, wow.

• 2:19:26Dax Shepard?

  There were studio movies that were phenomenal. Now there's only indie movies that are phenomenal. That's the point I'm trying to make.

• 2:19:32Speaker 01

  We got there.

• 2:19:33Dax Shepard?

  Oh, God. Love you. Let's do some facts.

• 2:19:36Speaker 01

  Okay. This was wild.

• 2:19:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's one of those, I, we have like five or six a year where after the interview, every single person that bumps into me is gonna hear-

• 2:19:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:47Dax Shepard?

  -the entire story because I think like most, I don't think we were alone in not knowing all the twists and turns of this case.

• 2:19:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:54Dax Shepard?

  I mean, the fact that she interacted with law enforcement, that he got arrested while she was in captivity, all this stuff is like, if you were watching it in a movie, I, I, you might call bullshit.

• 2:20:04Speaker 01

  I know. I've also since watched the doc.

• 2:20:07Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 2:20:08Speaker 01

  And, you know, we talk in depth on the episode, which is amazing, but there's a lot more in the doc, like- A lot more little pieces where you're like, what the fuck?

• 2:20:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:19Speaker 01

  So like, watch it.

• 2:20:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh, God, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:20:23Speaker 01

  It's, it is so.

• 2:20:25Dax Shepard?

  You need to see all the visuals, like them in the white outfits is so creepy. Oh, my God. I was talking to my mother.

• 2:20:32Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:20:33Dax Shepard?

  Um, cause I was very inclined to share her parting message in the doc.

• 2:20:38Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:20:39Dax Shepard?

  As my mother is also a survivor. And, uh, so she's laying in bed with her boyfriend, Dan, when I'm FaceTiming her. And he's like overhearing me talk about this whole thing and she, and, and he goes, cause he lived in Salt Lake during that time.

• 2:20:54Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 2:20:55Dax Shepard?

  And he said, my ex-wife and I saw them.

• 2:20:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:21:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we saw the three.

• 2:21:02Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:21:03Dax Shepard?

  People in the white outfits. And we were like, what is wrong? What's going on?

• 2:21:08Speaker 01

  Stop it.

• 2:21:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:10Speaker 01

  I wonder if I saw them, if I, I mean, no, but like, what are you gonna do? Call, what are you gonna do? Call the police every time you see something that looks a little weird? Like, you can't. You can't, this city.

• 2:21:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's a tricky line. I don't know. No, I'm not gonna act like I would have somehow done something, but I, I, the thing I get yelled at a lot for, if there was a girl missing and I saw a girl covered head to toe, I think I would, you know, like, I, I think I would.

• 2:21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:40Dax Shepard?

  Cause I don't mind confrontation.

• 2:21:43Speaker 01

  Right. But you know what's weird in that picture? Rob just showed a picture and like, because she's so covered.

• 2:21:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:50Speaker 01

  It's hard to tell that she's a young girl.

• 2:21:52Dax Shepard?

  I don't think it is.

• 2:21:54Speaker 01

  I mean, all you see.

• 2:21:56Dax Shepard?

  That eye, that whole eye section, forehead without a single wrinkle.

• 2:22:00Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 2:22:01Dax Shepard?

  I bet there's a lot of people in Salt Lake that feel bad that they saw them around.

• 2:22:06Speaker 01

  Well, that was about to be my question. Do you think Dan's like, oh, fuck, like, I wish I had done something? But you can't do that because like.

• 2:22:15Dax Shepard?

  No, well, I don't think he thought Elizabeth Smart as much as he thought, who are these freaks in our town?

• 2:22:22Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:22:22Dax Shepard?

  That are walking around like it's the 1600s.

• 2:22:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:22:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he didn't connect the dots, like, oh, that might be Elizabeth Smart, because then maybe he would feel. Anyone who, look, any human with a conscience that then learns what happened to her, that knows they could have intervened, is gonna feel guilty, I think, some level of guilt.

• 2:22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you'd have to have the inclination that like, oh, do we, do I think maybe that's that girl?

• 2:22:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:47Speaker 01

  Okay, I guess I won't think about it again. Then you'd feel bad. But I, what I'm saying is, in this city, for this was happening now and it was this city.

• 2:22:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:55Speaker 01

  I wouldn't, I wouldn't, there's so many people looking crazy, I mean, just being honest, like, I wouldn't know what was what. I wouldn't, I don't, you know what I mean?

• 2:23:06Dax Shepard?

  I do know what you mean, but for me, this is different. Uh, this is, when you cover a woman's face, oh, you're not Muslim?

• 2:23:12Speaker 01

  But I guess we, we might have to assume they like are.

• 2:23:15Dax Shepard?

  Well, they don't wear all white.

• 2:23:17Speaker 01

  That's true, yeah.

• 2:23:18Dax Shepard?

  So, and they're be, they're white.

• 2:23:20Speaker 01

  I know, but people convert.

• 2:23:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, people convert. Uh, that to me looks pretty distinctly

• 2:23:26Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, different.

• 2:23:27Dax Shepard?

  Different. That to me looks like when I went to Colorado City, Arizona, to Warren Jeffs' fundamentalist compound.

• 2:23:35Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:23:36Dax Shepard?

  You know, I went there three times.

• 2:23:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:23:39Dax Shepard?

  And drove around that thing, and it's, it's immediately wrong.

• 2:23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:45Dax Shepard?

  The women are dressed as like pioneer people. The, the rate of kids that have genetic issues is so un- un- un- unforgettable.

• 2:23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:58Dax Shepard?

  Uh, it is like a movie.

• 2:24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:00Dax Shepard?

  And it's not my place to go into their community per se. But yeah, for me, if women are, are being subjugated, yeah, I'm like, it's on. And I think if you're walking around with one dude and he's got four women covered head to toe and they're not Muslim, I'm not cool with that. I'd have to hear the scenario where everything was honky-dory there.

• 2:24:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:24:24Dax Shepard?

  I've yet to hear the scenario where that was like a good thing.

• 2:24:27Speaker 01

  This uh harkens back to our last fact check, which is like, you have an idea of what's right and wrong for you.

• 2:24:35Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 2:24:35Speaker 01

  But we can't really put our right and wrongs on other people.

• 2:24:40Dax Shepard?

  Unless someone's.

• 2:24:41Speaker 01

  Being hurt.

• 2:24:42Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 2:24:42Speaker 01

  Which she was.

• 2:24:43Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 2:24:44Speaker 01

  But Hezabah.

• 2:24:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:47Speaker 01

  Um, wouldn't say she was being hurt.

• 2:24:49Dax Shepard?

  She wouldn't say she was being hurt, but she was being hurt.

• 2:24:52Speaker 01

  By our standards. So this is where things get very slippery.

• 2:24:57Dax Shepard?

  Well, they get into autonomy and liberty. Yeah. Do you have the liberty to be subjugated if you choose?

• 2:25:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:03Dax Shepard?

  Interesting. Like, yeah.

• 2:25:04Speaker 01

  But I mean, yeah, if you can tell this as a kid.

• 2:25:06Dax Shepard?

  But at the same time, to pretend we can't delineate the difference between these things, I think is also a lie. Like, I think when, when, when, when men are abusing people, um, I don't think that's terribly subjective. I don't think um, clitorectomies are subjective.

• 2:25:26Speaker 01

  I don't either, but I think you would say in anthropology in areas like that is a part of their culture and you can't really have a judgment on that.

• 2:25:35Dax Shepard?

  And this was my pretty big issue by the end of my anthro degree is I was like, I think it serves an incredible, an imperative tool to walk in without any goal of judging.

• 2:25:47Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:25:47Dax Shepard?

  So that you can actually learn and understand.

• 2:25:49Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:25:50Dax Shepard?

  But we have learned and understand, stood now what the clitorectomy is about.

• 2:25:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:56Dax Shepard?

  And that is to deny women pleasure so they don't cheat on their husbands.

• 2:25:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's horrifying.

• 2:26:00Dax Shepard?

  And you can suck a dick. I, I have no, you know, I can't, I'm not a, a, a, a moral relativist when it comes to hurting little girls.

• 2:26:08Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, yeah.

• 2:26:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess it's like, at what point is like, once they turn 18, once it's like, you know, again, there's some blurry weird, it's hard.

• 2:26:18Dax Shepard?

  It is.

• 2:26:18Speaker 01

  Obviously, yes. I mean, I think, I think that children have to be protected to the fullest extent. But I don't know if you saw that, if you're just like, that's, I don't know, it's so crazy. It's so horrible. I can't believe she was just walking around. And people were walking around and she was stuck like that and so scared to like.

• 2:26:44Dax Shepard?

  I think a trick you could, I could get into is when I look back at myself at these different ages, I think I'm older than I was. And I think that's pretty common for people. You're kind of using your modern mind to think about what you were. But because I have a 12 year old, it is just crystal clear to me what that experience would be like for her. And it's so gruesome. It's just terrible.

• 2:27:08Speaker 01

  That's so terrible.

• 2:27:12Speaker 01

  But she's amazing.

• 2:27:13Dax Shepard?

  No, the fact that Elizabeth is functioning and walking around, and not only functioning, but thriving. And as a family, is productive, is like so one in a million for this scenario.

• 2:27:25Speaker 01

  It's so aspirational. And admirable and yeah. Okay, a couple of facts. Also, you asked me, you were like, was that part of why you were so scared of kidnapping? But when I was thinking about the timeline, no, because she's my age and that I was in.

• 2:27:42Dax Shepard?

  You were done with that by 14?

• 2:27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, or I was still scared, but it had started when I was five or something. But you know what's also really upsetting is like when I was first scared of kidnapping, and it was in my prayer and stuff, robbers and kidnappers.

• 2:28:01Speaker 01

  I like poli class that she was one of the first ones that was kidnapped and that I was young for that.

• 2:28:08Dax Shepard?

  I don't recognize that.

• 2:28:09Speaker 01

  Oh, it happened in San Francisco and she was kidnapped and it was, I think like a birthday party or something. Horrible.

• 2:28:16Speaker 04

  A slumber party at 12.

• 2:28:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, my mom like was like obsessed with the poli class thing.

• 2:28:23Dax Shepard?

  So she was a little infected too with the fear?

• 2:28:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was scared and then it's it, you know, came trickle down effect.

• 2:28:31Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 2:28:32Speaker 01

  Trickle down economics to me.

• 2:28:33Dax Shepard?

  It works.

• 2:28:34Speaker 01

  And then we were in San Francisco for my mom's work and like there were signs for her.

• 2:28:41Speaker 01

  But I was so, you know, you do forget to your point when you're like, you think you're older. I didn't know about rape. Looking back, I can only assume that I just thought like they just take you and keep you and you're their kid now or something.

• 2:28:57Dax Shepard?

  Maybe they spank you a lot or something.

• 2:28:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I had no idea what it really meant.

• 2:29:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the kidnapping's really just.

• 2:29:08Speaker 01

  The beginning.

• 2:29:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:11Speaker 01

  Okay, now, okay kidnapping statistics 2002 versus now. There are many factors stats involved in this that it's hard to find a simple answer. But from AI kidnapping statistics, particularly for children, show that while public perception in 2002 was heightened due to high profile cases. The actual number of abductions by strangers has remained relatively low and stable or even decreased over the past two decades.

• 2:29:36Dax Shepard?

  I think social media and smartphones has to have an impact on the decline. I don't think you could get away with it for as long.

• 2:29:47Speaker 01

  That's what I said after she left. I was like, I don't think that could happen today in the same way.

• 2:29:51Dax Shepard?

  In the same way.

• 2:29:53Speaker 01

  Um, okay, so total missing children reports in 2002. Around 725,000 children were reported missing annually to law enforcement. And then in recent years, approximately 2024, missing person files for all ages in the US in 2024, although this is still under the children thing.

• 2:30:18Dax Shepard?

  And also missing persons, like your kid didn't come home from a night out and you report it.

• 2:30:23Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. It says there's over 533,000. The FBI reported a 40% drop in total missing children cases between 97 and 2014. Okay.

• 2:30:33Dax Shepard?

  Also, could you type in what percentage of kidnappings are from a relative or known person, friend or?

• 2:30:43Speaker 01

  A significant majority of child kidnappings involve family or acquaintances, not strangers. With older data from the Department of Justice showing 49% by family members, 27% by acquaintances and 24% by strangers. That's actually higher than I thought.

• 2:30:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it is higher than I would have thought too. So almost a quarter.

• 2:31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I bit my lip yesterday really, really bad. And so now it's like, it's like so huge.

• 2:31:09Dax Shepard?

  And you're upper or you're lower?

• 2:31:11Speaker 01

  Lower.

• 2:31:12Dax Shepard?

  Interesting, because I was looking at your upper lip and I was like, did you get a little injection?

• 2:31:15Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I did not.

• 2:31:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow, congratulations. That's the goal. Like I saw on a comment, some, some woman wrote, "You have to stop wearing eyeliner."

• 2:31:24Speaker 01

  You?

• 2:31:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And I wrote, "I don't wear eyeliner, but thank you for the compliment."

• 2:31:28Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. Okay, you said alarm systems work in doorways, windows using magnets. Yeah, when the contact of the magnet breaks, it sets off the alarm. That is correct. Well, those are the facts.

• 2:31:39Dax Shepard?

  Those are the facts, Jax. Well, that was an incredible episode.

• 2:31:43Speaker 01

  I'm so, I'm so grateful she came here and, oof, my god, and was able, she's just able to talk about it and help people. Like, it's so helpful and, you know, we have a handful of people like that, like Amanda Knox and even like Monica Lewinsky, who are just like, decide to, to put their own trauma kind of aside for, in order to help other people. And it's like-

• 2:32:08Dax Shepard?

  It's not easy.

• 2:32:09Speaker 01

  No. And it's, I like, we have to just be so grateful for it.

• 2:32:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. All right, love you. Happy thousand.

• 2:32:16Speaker 01

  Happy thousand.

• 2:32:18Dax Shepard?

  Ding ding ding ding ding ding.

• 2:32:34Dax Shepard?

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