Godlike AI Is Here! Peter Diamandis Debates Brian Keating - #557

Peter Diamandis has built more of the future than almost anyone alive. He founded XPRIZE. He co-founded Singularity University with Ray Kurzweil. He started Human Longevity with Craig Venter. And in his new book with Steven Kotler, We Are as Gods, he argues that artificial intelligence isn't just changing what we can do. It's changing what it means to be human. I'm not so sure. This is Peter's fifth time on Into the Impossible, and the conversation I've been waiting years to have. His thesis: AI will deliver not just intelligence at scale, but wisdom — and humanity is already crossing the threshold into godlike capability, whether we're ready or not. My pushback: an experiment one of my students and I ran shows large language models trained only on pre-1911 physics cannot reproduce what Einstein did with the same data. If wisdom were just scale, that shouldn't be true. We go after it for an hour. No hedging, no softening. What you'll hear: — Whether AGI can manufacture genuine wisdom or just better simulations of it — The pre-1911 Einstein test and what it reveals about the ceiling of current AI — The "five forks of humanity": longevity, BCI, off-planet speciation, creators vs. consumers, and uploading — What happens to human purpose when scarcity disappears — Why Peter thinks India dominates the next twenty years of science and technology — Peter's Fermi paradox theory and why he thinks we may be someone else's biosphere experiment — The Future Vision XPRIZE and how dystopian training data may be making AI more dangerous — David Sinclair's epigenetic age-reversal trials, now underway in human eyes Peter says what you did between breakfast and dinner would be godlike to your grandparents. We just stopped noticing. Subscribe if you want science with evidence, not speculation. CHAPTERS 00:00 Diamandis: AGI will generate wisdom by simulating billions of outcomes 04:07 Brian's counterargument: wisdom requires embodiment, not just simulation 07:07 The GPU + LLM architecture may already be a local maximum 09:48 AI is outpacing most math PhDs but the ceiling is still unknown 15:30 Diamandis fires back at the doomers 17:59 AI will eventually untangle the legal systems blocking the future 23:18 The Singularity has religious qualities and both hosts take that seriously 29:37 Post-scarcity splits humanity into creators and consumers 36:08 Peter's Fermi paradox theory: we may be someone else's biosphere experiment 43:07 Dystopian AI training data may be causing misalignment 51:46 Human trials are underway for epigenetic eye age reversal ——— Get the transcript, fascinating bonus content, and my Monday M. A. G. I. C. Message: https://briankeating.com/yt Have a .edu email and live in the USA? You automatically win a meteorite: https://BrianKeating.com/edu Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/DrBrianKeating?sub_confirmation=1 Support Into the Impossible on Patreon — get my weekly M. A. G. I. C. Message, unfiltered bonus content, and live monthly Office Hours with me: https://www.patreon.com/drbriankeating Join this channel for perks, monthly Office Hours, and your name in the Member Roster at the end of every episode: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmXH_moPhfkqCk6S3b9RWuw/join My books: Losing the Nobel Prize (memoir): http://amzn.to/2sa5UpA Think Like a Nobel Prize Winner: https://a.co/d/03ezQFu Focus Like a Nobel Prize Winner: https://a.co/d/hi50U9U Galileo's Dialogue (first-ever audiobook): https://a.co/d/iZPi9Un More: Peter Diamandis Moonshots Podcast: https://www.diamandis.com/podcast Peter Diamandis Substack: https://metatrends.substack.com/ Future Vision XPRIZE: https://futurevisionxprize.com/ Book We Are as Gods: https://a.co/d/0bfz2pBo Peter Diamandis YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@peterdiamandis Follow Peter on X: https://x.com/PeterDiamandis Twitter/X: https://x.com/BrianKeating Substack: https://briankeating.substack.com Blog: https://briankeating.com/blog Audio-only: https://briankeating.com/podcast #intotheimpossible #briankeating #science #physics #astronomy #cosmology #podcast #universe #peterdiamandis #ai #agi #singularity #abundance #longevity Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  We're a boot disk. We're simply a transient boot disk for intelligence.

• 1:00Speaker 03

  If artificial intelligence is going to take your job and your career or make you a problem, you might just want to hear from the people who actually are building it.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  AGI ASI is going to be able to simulate a billion, 100 billion different scenarios and be able to say statistically, this has the best outcome. These others are miserable.

• 1:23Speaker 03

  My guest today is one of the few who's actually in the room where he's funded the labs, he's invested in the models. He's been wrong by the timeline before, and when he was wrong, he was wrong in the same direction as most of us. He thought it would take a little longer. Today, he's going to tell you what he thinks happens next to your work, to your kids, to your lifespan. Spoiler alert, he thinks it's the best news in human history, but I'm not so sure. So we're going to duke it out. Peter Diamandis, his fifth time on the show.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Into the Impossible. Let's go.

• 1:55Brian Keating?

  The first thing I thought when I saw the title of this book, you know, there's no better person that could think about, you know, the question of humans becoming gods. That's a real kind of old story and doesn't always end well as, you know, Prometheus and many other of your Greek native gods can tell you. The phrase I keep hearing in my mind is we are gods but for the wisdom. And there's world is swimming in intelligence. But Peter, what's more important than wisdom? And where can we go to get artificial wisdom, not just intelligence?

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Well, let me, let me give you my pitch on that because I think we're about to have it in spades. So if I were to ask you, Brian, like, where would you go to get wisdom? You know, historically, one would go to the village elders, right? You'd go to the people who had the most experience out there. And those village elders are considered wise because they've seen so many scenarios. They'll sit there and they'll say, listen, if you go down this path, it's not going to end well for you. But if you go down this path, you might be able to succeed. And we define that as wisdom. Well, guess what? AGI, ASI is going to be able to simulate a billion, 100 billion different scenarios and be able to

• 3:04Speaker 02

  say statistically, this has the best outcome. These others are miserable. I honestly don't think human psychology is that difficult to simulate. You know, this goes back to, you know, Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. I think that we are going to get wisdom out of AI. I think we're going to get extraordinary wisdom out of AI. The reason that a starship, every flight gets better and better performance is because they're able to put all of these sensors on the vehicle, get huge amounts of data and simulate the performance. Well, we're heading towards a world of trillions of sensors. Every human conversation is being uploaded. We're going to be able to model this and get wisdom. What do you think about

• 3:49Speaker 02

  that? Do you, do you agree?

• 3:51Brian Keating?

  There's no doubt that we are, you know, kind of surpassed any kind of event horizon or singularity that you have popularized with, with Ray and others. There's no doubt that we're, you know, kind of awash in intelligence. I don't know about you, but if somebody told me I had a superhuman team of 150 of the world's greatest graduate students at my disposal 24/7, I would say, I'll probably be on a beach, you know, maybe hanging out with Peter or something like that. I wouldn't say I'd be working more than I ever have in my life. And that would be a failure of my, you know, judgment, my wisdom. You and I are both pilots, we're both jet pilots, right? We have a saying in aviation, you must learn from other people's experience because you won't live long enough to make all their mistakes by yourself. And so I just feel like I just fell into all

• 4:35Brian Keating?

  these traps. And, and part of this is, is, you know, to talk about my favorite subject, which of course is me. And I want to get your advice for me, Peter, that I'm working harder than ever. I don't feel like I'm getting any benefit from this, other than I'm just like constantly tuned in. I just love it so, I'm addicted to it.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  It is an addiction. You know, people talk about three and four day work weeks. I think you and I have created the nine and 10 day work week. I'm working and operating at a higher level of capability and working more than I ever have in my life. I mean, I wake up, my, my AI, my lobster, my open claw, I call Skippy from one of my favorite science fiction books. I'm talking to Skippy and having Skippy work on stuff. Skippy's working on stuff right now as we're having this conversation. And so my productivity has gone up tremendously, but my addictiveness to productivity, to doing more and more has gone up. And yeah, I mean, the only downtime I get is when I give myself permission because I know my AIs are working on stuff, I can actually go and work out. I'm curious what

• 5:35Speaker 02

  you think about the wisdom argument I made. How do you define wisdom? And do you think that AIs are able to generate wisdom as I described it?

• 5:43Brian Keating?

  Actually, I disagree with the fact that AIs can, can generate wisdom, only because at their current level, I think that they're, they're bound, maybe they'll become unbound, like Prometheus again, the god like figure. But, but the question is, do we have, do they have judgment?

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Let me back up one second with you, right? Do you believe that AIs are going to be able to run massively parallel simulations of outcomes?

• 6:09Brian Keating?

  But I don't think that's what's valuable to me as a physicist.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Wouldn't you say wisdom is, out of all the possibilities, what do I choose? That's how, that's how I define wisdom. Would you define it differently?

• 6:22Brian Keating?

  I think wisdom is as an amalgamation of experience, of judgment. I think it learning from others' mistakes. And it's hard to say how something learns from its mistakes. Let me give you my, my current pitch for why I don't think we're at AGI. I know you're much more, you're just perennial optimist. I love it. You're not just like some, you know, airy fairy optimist. You're bounded in the most cutting edge technology with the best thinkers on earth. And, and you're just, you know, so superhuman in the way that you approach things. But I'll say this, my fundamental test, as I think I said when I was on the moonshots podcast with, with you a couple of years ago, I said, the happiest thought that Einstein ever had, if he was in an elevator and the cable broke, he'd be in free fall.

• 7:05Brian Keating?

  And that feeling in the pit of his stomach was the sensation that there was no gravitational force field. Meaning that he could intuit based on this human embodiment that the free fall sensation would result in the Einstein equivalence principle would result in no gravitational force. So we don't think of gravity as a force, right? We think of it as the curvature of spacetime, which would not have an experiential component to it. So he's saying that the bodily experience, the visceral experience connected to his mind gave him joy. Now, I don't know, as I've said in the past, if AIs can feel joy. If they certainly can't currently feel, now they'll have sensors and optimists and all the other robotics things. But will they be able to have that experience that even a four-year-old, you know, can have?

• 7:46Brian Keating?

  And so my question to you is, is what's lacking in the GPU plus LLM architecture, which is so successful, is it too successful? Because it's kind of running away with everything.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  Is it a local maximum?

• 7:59Brian Keating?

  Is it a local max? And is it entomating us in a prison of the limits of GPUs plus LLM? That may not be the best thing, Peter. The Zevora keyboard was much better than QWERTY and yet we're stuck with QWERTY.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  I agree with you. And, and so interesting, right? Recently, Demis Sabas said, maybe that we don't need another breakthrough. He said at 50% probability, we don't need another breakthrough to. Get to whatever the fuzzy definition of AGI is, you know, he's there from, we need five breakthroughs. He's down from five breakthroughs to maybe this is the last one. Now, of course, the question becomes is can the LM architecture help us discover the next highest local maximum? And is there an absolute maximum? These are the questions worth considering.

• 8:43Brian Keating?

  From my perspective, what's lacking in all of this is not, you know, kind of what happens in the next, you know, Fast and the Furious movie, which will be the training data set for the next thing. I'd like to think that he kind of read my paper, you know, that I wrote two years ago. The statement that I made is I'm interested to know if you had, if you could somehow do this and you're the right person to ask. Cause I don't even know if you can do this, but if you had an LM that was trained only on pre 1911 physics, when Einstein had that happiest thought that led to the breakthrough of special general relativity. If you had that, but even if I take some, some corpus of, of knowledge in Mistral, I take some, you know, just middling road LM, it will have stuff in it like because it has Spider-Man into the spider verse, right? It'll have some notions of relativity baked into it. So it's so corrupted.

• 9:27Brian Keating?

  I would like to know if you had an LM, and I've been doing this with one of my students. It turns out they can't do it. The large language models that I've tried with my student Evan Watson here at UCSD. We tried to say, if you just had Mercury's data of its precession, could you do what Einstein did? Which has come up with this brilliant insight that no curvature causes the anomalous procession of Mercury. And that if you could train only on pre 1907 or 1911 data, then that would be kind of a breakthrough to me. In other words, do what my art students, my art student friends do. They don't start off painting their own masterpieces. They do copy work. They copy what Picasso did. They copy Monet. They copy Manet.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  They train their neural nets by doing that.

• 10:05Brian Keating?

  Right. So can an AI do that? Can you do a training just to have a breakthrough like Einstein, not just, but that's huge, right? To my knowledge, they can't do that. And I'm worried that we polluted them, but so much knowledge that is subtly corrupting them. You talked about quantum gravity on one of your recent podcasts or at the, actually at the end of the book. But quantum gravity, Peter, is not a commonly, it's not a universally accepted, pardon the pun endeavor in physics. In other words, there are a lot of people like my friend. Weinstein, who thinks it's a fool's errand and it's actually corrupting physics.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Let's slow this down and build from the bottom of the pyramid upwards, which is to say, do you believe that the current models, the most advanced models, Adam Anthropic and Gemini and OpenAI are enabling us to solve math that humans have never been able to solve? Do you believe that?

• 10:56Brian Keating?

  I've talked to Terry Tao, who's the Mozart of math at UCLA, and he said they're very good at checking proofs. Here's another example. I asked him, has anyone used an L M math proof to generate Andrew Wiles' generation of the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, which took him 700 pages 30 years ago? And he said, no.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Intuitively obvious.

• 11:14Brian Keating?

  No, he said, no, they can't do that. They can't even reproduce what he did.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Not my particular field. On my podcast, Alex Wiesner Gross, who is

• 11:23Brian Keating?

  You're a genius.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  My resident genius. His belief and the data he keeps on bringing, and what we speak about on the podcast in part, is we're seeing that these models are in fact running circles around the vast majority of mathematic PhDs.

• 11:39Brian Keating?

  Oh, sure.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  Is it running circles around the top 0.001% of genius mathematicians? Maybe not yet, but his belief is, to quote him, math is cooked, that in fact, math is going to fall to these large language models. Now, I will say one other thing, Brian. No one predicted that L M's would be able to do the things that they're doing today. Right? If you looked at what could these large language models do in terms of predicting the next, you know, word, the next token from the corpus of the internet, no one saw them doing what they're doing in world models and

• 12:18Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies. 18 plus.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  In math, in, in scientific prediction. And so we don't actually know what the ceiling is on their abilities. But we're seeing increasing capability across the board in math. And then if we solve math, and I wrote a paper with Alex called Solve Everything. It said solve everything.org. And we, we basically write how you would solve everything. You know, by creating the harnesses, by creating the benchmarks that you're measuring things against. And by rapid iteration, that math falls, physics falls, chemistry, biology, material sciences. And our belief to some degree is belief, it's not provable.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Uh, that within five years, we are going to crush all these limitations.

• 13:35Brian Keating?

  The Indian Institute of Technology, IIT, has over a million students currently, right? Fifty thousand of them are physics majors. Now, now assume that they're all the same brightness as MIT. Would you think that that would produce more kind of genius breakthroughs, Nobel level breakthroughs? That they would have a greater probability of being Nobel Prize winners in the physical sciences? Is it, is it sheer scale, Peter, is what I'm asking? Cause I, I don't disagree with you. The scale is overwhelming. I just, I cannot stop using it, except I, Peter, maybe, maybe unlike you, but may, I, I have a feeling. Cause you age in reverse. You're the best advertisement for your longevity. And I want to give a recognition of our mutual friend Craig Venter, who passed away recently.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:17Brian Keating?

  Wonderful guy. And, and you guys started this huge thing in San Diego, which has saved many lives. I mean, it's incredible. I, I met with them recently and I talked to him. It, it helped extend Craig's life. But anyway, Peter, MIT doesn't, doesn't do, you know, markedly, you know, it's not orders of magnitude better than UCSD, even though they're higher ranked, you know, than we are. So my question is, is scale alone sufficient?

• 14:36Speaker 02

  If you've got scale of the right elements. So what you're looking at is scale of a number of intelligent people focused on a particular area of technology. There's another element, which is not part of that equation, which you have to multiply by. There's a product you have to create, which is their mindset. So I think one of the things that's important is having someone who's intelligent is insufficient. It's required, but.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Insufficient. I think what's required in addition to intelligence is mindsets. And I teach this, right? A curiosity mindset, a purpose-driven mindset, an exponential mindset, a moonshot mindset, a first principles mindset. I mean, what makes Elon so incredible as an entrepreneur and a technologist, right, is his first principles thinking and his level of 10x thinking. You know, there is something that is fundamentally better and different, and I'm going to run iterations down to first principles until I find it.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  And so while you might have the most brilliant, to use your IIT example, I think India is the rising star globally. I think people don't recognize how much India is going to dominate in math, science, biology, technology, across the board over the next 20 years because of its youth, because of its sheer intelligence there. But putting that aside, what America has is a set of mindsets that are uniquely entrepreneurial. I think that combined with intelligence and are creating this level of extraordinary. And, you know, I think that's also true in Israel.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  Now, you should know that not everyone agrees with Peter. Adam Becker wrote a book called More: Everything Forever. Very pessimistic, and I hosted him on the show. So of course I asked Peter to respond. He didn't hold back.

• 17:04Brian Keating?

  Again, to push back, a past guest, Adam Becker, I don't know if you're familiar with him. He's a physicist, he's now a journalist. He wrote a book about quantum mechanical, basically Bell's inequalities, but, but his most recent book is called More of Everything Faster, Better, and it's really a screed, a Jeremiah ad against the Silicon Valley tech culture and LA tech culture that, that you've helped really incubate. And specifically it targets people like Elon, Sam Altman, you know, Dario, Amade, Marc Andreessen, the funders, not just, as you said, the entrepreneurs are the secret sauce, are, you know, a lot of the magic of, of the United States. But again, that might not last with India being so exceptional as they are, right? So we can't rest on no laurels. But he says that they're creating a techno utopia.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 18:17Brian Keating?

  Utopia that is bound to lead to dystopia. And they're building in the image that you like to quote in the Star Trek versus Star Wars, Peter Thiel is mentioned in there as well, as one of these evil kind of billionaire villains that are just trying to make reality the way that they saw it at age nine, you know, during Star Trek. And I know that you love it and I love it too, but, but what is, what do you have to say about these kinds of theses?

• 18:40Speaker 02

  Oh my God, what a loser is what I have to say. I mean, honestly, if you look at the data and in the back of this book, for anybody who gets the

• 18:50Brian Keating?

  Oh yeah, the appendix.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  There is like, like a hundred charts showing what's happened over the last, you know, couple of hundred years, hundred years, last 50 years. And when you look at child mortality falling through the floor, life expectancy doubling, you know, literacy going through the roof, access to food, water, energy, healthcare. It's like, for God's sakes, where do you think that all came from? What's the guy's name?

• 19:14Brian Keating?

  Adam Becker, PhD.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Adam, where the hell did that all come from? Did we become smarter as humans? Do we have better politicians? Or maybe, just maybe, is it the impact of technology? And honestly, that's the only force that takes scarcity and makes it abundance. Only force that is able to uplift all of humanity, eight billion humans. And yeah, the Star Trek future is one of abundance. It's one where we've taken out the constraints and technology and humanity work collaboratively. So forgive me if I want to uplift the entire human race. And the only way to do it efficiently and rapidly is the use of technology.

• 19:51Brian Keating?

  The audiobook, which I listened to, in addition to reading the hardcover and the PDF version of it, or the Kindle version of it, the audiobook has the charts in it, but it doesn't just refer to charts, you know, which is awful, but it actually has a PDF of the charts. So I thank you for that. But at the end of the audiobook, Peter, there's a chapter from abundance, which is the last book, I think you narrated of yourself. And it starts with like this, this incredible future that awaits us thanks to Uber, Aerocopter, whatever. And, you know, again, you and I are pilots, right? There's no field probably more disruptable than aviation. And yet, I think the obstacle, I think there's two obstacles to AGI ever getting here, Peter. One, it's every day I have to click launch to update to, you know, OPIS 4.374195.

• 20:34Brian Keating?

  And then Gemini, and the schedule for updating is killing me. But the other thing are lawyers, Peter, right? Because you and I fly planes. When you come and see me down here in San Diego, you have to tune in the ATIS, Automated Terminal Information Service. And that is a single channel and it's completely mono-oral. You can't talk when you're talking, someone else is talking to ATC. It's horrible when you could have something completely automated. I think lawyers and joking about the updates, but I can't imagine how the singularity is going to get past all these updates I have to do every day. But Peter, tell me, what are lawyers and regulation? Aren't they an ultimate impediment to the techno-abundant future that we both seek?

• 21:07Speaker 02

  I think AI is a mechanism. It's a user interface across all of these things. I avoid regulations, lawyers, policy, politics as much as I can. And I just focus on building shit. But at the end of the day. AI is going to be my ultimate interface for anything and everything I need. So if I'm building something, I'm just going to say, listen, make this lawful. And let me know if I have to change anything, right? And then the second thing that AI can do is if you look at the laws required to run any business, there's probably like thousands of laws on the books. And a lot of them are conflicting.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Someone eventually will let an LM loose on the tax code. And say, can you please simplify this by, you know, orders of magnitude and still allow the government to function? Humans have created this tangled web of legal structures that support certain political groups and certain interest groups. And, you know, our laws in the books from 50 or 100 years ago that have never been removed, that are still resident there. And it can all be cleaned up, but it's not going to be cleaned up by any human. It's going to be cleaned up by AI systems when we give a permission. And then of even greater interest, and you know, I've discussed this before, as we move off planet

• 22:29Speaker 02

  to establish new human settlements, we can start with a clean sheet of paper and improve on the legal structures that exist right now. But you'll do it by, say, build from first principle legal structure. Here's what, here's what matters to us. So I'm excited about that.

• 22:47Brian Keating?

  Me too. Any, any chance to get rid of lawyers, you know, is, is a good thing for me. But it reminds me of, you know, harkening back to your first question about wisdom. Where do I get my wisdom from? I get it from Shakespeare. I get it from Epictetus. I get it from Jesus. I get it from the Torah. And in the first opening, you know, where God is speaking to, you know, there are only creatures that are around when God says, let us, meaning in the plural, make man in our image, are angels and animals, right? Those are the only two things that existed according to the Torah. I'm not taking it literally necessarily, but, but that's what existed. So we have an animal side and we have an angelic side in us. And then they first man and first woman are told not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for then they shall be as gods, right? So that's a warning to us.

• 23:29Brian Keating?

  And my question to you is, you know, we're still operating, as you quote in the book, you know, we're, we're kind of like. You know, Bronze Age hominids, or monkeys, or what are primates? I don't like to think of ourselves like that, but, but people can speak for themselves when they call themselves monkeys. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna stop them. But we have these, you know, we have this wet, squishy supercomputer in our, in our skull, which operates on 25 watts at 0.4 millihertz, or something like that, or 0.4 hertz. How, how are we even possibly able to take advantage of the abundance that awaits us when we're, these primitive creatures, relatively speaking, compared to what's coming down the line? Are we so far in advance of what we're ready for that it's just gonna be a future shock for most of us?

• 24:09Speaker 02

  We do an incredible job of adapting rapidly and taking for granted the miracles amongst us. I like to say, you know, what you did between breakfast and dinner would be godlike for your grandson, for your grandparents, or for your parents, right? And yet, we take it for granted. I mean, if you had asked me, what would this level of superintelligence that can diagnose you, can write anything for you, can code anything for you, can answer any question, do all of these amazing things, what would it cost you per month? You know, a million dollars, $10 million? I would have never guessed zero. But yet, that's where we are. We've seen a 99.9% reduction in inference costs over the course of the last year.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  It's like 99% heading towards 99.99. And then, at the same time, the level of intelligence, right? These systems are now being measured in the mid 130s to 140 IQ, not slowing down, becoming cheaper, becoming more useful. And yes, we take it for granted. And yes, as these systems become more and more capable, the only way for us to take advantage of it is going to be to couple with it. It's either we're coupling and going for the ride, or it's taking off and we're staying down here, right? It's the movie Her was a great example of that, where the AI at the end takes off and says, you know, "So long and thanks for all the fish." So, will we couple with it?

• 25:36Speaker 02

  There will be integration options through BCI, and there will be sort of loose integration options, where my AI is there, just like Jarvis in Iron Man, my best analogy for it, there to just support you, help you, help you get through your day the most efficient you possibly can.

• 25:56Brian Keating?

  If you had to extrapolate, you know, combining the silicon and this pink matter here, if you had to extrapolate, it sounds like, well, at least to me, it would be a much worse future. You know, if I'm already overwhelmed now with productivity pornography and all the other things, I just see you having so much fun. I'm like, I want to be Peter when I grow up. But you're only a few years older than me. The question I have for you is, isn't it, isn't it actually kind of like, I don't want to say scary, but if you're working, you know, nine days a week now, how much are you going to be working in the future, 20?

• 26:27Speaker 02

  I go back to the only thing we can control.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Is our mindset. In the book, We Are His God, Stephen Kotler, my co-author and I argue that first half of the book is looking at the abundance thesis we proposed back in 2012. It became sort of a mainstay for all of the tech bros to talk about abundance, superabundance, all of that stuff. It's proven out and continues. And so the book sort of continues the thesis, says, yes, this is where abundance is going. There's downside of abundance, microplastics, extra calories for obesity, depression, you know, all of these things. But then the second half of the book is like, how do you survive this coming age? The only mechanism I know is for you to shape your mindset. So our brains

• 27:40Speaker 02

  are neural nets, right? We're a billion neurons, 100 trillion synaptic connections, and we train a neural net, whether it's Grok or Gemini, by showing it example after example after example of data. And we are constantly training our neural net by the conversations we have with brilliant people like yourself, the podcasts we listen to, like this one, the books we read, the posters on our wall, all of those things are training the way we think. And my thesis is that your mindset is the single greatest thing you have. If you ask yourself, who are the greatest thinkers in the world, the greatest leaders in the world, and what made them a great leader, whether it was Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nushan Sari, whoever it

• 28:22Speaker 02

  might be, Brian Keating, what made them a great leader? Was it the money, their technology, their friends, or was it their mindset? I hope people would say their mindset made them a great leader. Take away everything else, keep their mindset, they're going to regain their prominence. So if your mindset's your most important thing, what mindset do you have right now? Where did you get it from? And more importantly, what mindset do you need for the decade ahead? And so we talk about shaping your mindset, agility and agency in this time of AI. You know, if you think AI is happening to you rather than for you, if you're in fear versus in optimism, all these things impact your ability to deal with

• 29:06Speaker 02

  a radically departing future.

• 29:08Brian Keating?

  One of my friends tweeted Thiago Forte, something interesting, connection between all these AI pioneers, Sam Altman, Dario Amade, loving of God, Elon Musk, just in aroma. But the question I have for you is, are we creating a secular theology? I don't work 20 days a week. I work six days a week because I take off for the Sabbath. I spend it entirely offline with my kids, with my wife, with my family, with my friends, with my community, in meat space, in reality, at my temple or my friends'. And I don't work, I don't email, I don't tweet, I don't record podcasts. If I get invited to speak, sorry, I'm not going to do it. Now, am I doing that for culture? Yeah, probably. But there's also, there's

• 29:51Brian Keating?

  wisdom in it, right? So are we creating a secular theology coming out of not Jerusalem or Vatican City, but out of Silicon Valley?

• 30:01Speaker 02

  Of course we are. There's a few documentaries done about my mentor, dear friend Ray Kurzweil. And, you know, in one of them, it talks about, you know, rapture of the nerds. The singularity is, in one essence, a religion. And we are, you know, as the book title refers to, becoming godlike. We're becoming omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent across the board. And we take that for granted. And with that godlike power, what will we do with it? But we have an incredible responsibility today. And that responsibility is to assure humanity's survival and uplifting to a greater state of wisdom.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  And for me, it's using all these technologies to uplift every man, woman, and child. To provide every man, woman, and child access to the food, water, energy, healthcare, education, freedom that they deserve, that every mother knows their kids has access to that. I think that's a more peaceful world. Elon, when I interviewed him on my Moonshots podcast, now twice, once in end of December, we aired it in January, and once at my Abundance Summit, we talked about the idea of universal high income. His belief that we're going to see double-digit GDP growth in the next two years and triple-digit by 2030. And that we're heading to a world where AI and robots are creating so much that you could not want enough to saturate their production rates.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  And that's what he, you know, he talks about, sort of radical abundance.

• 31:33Brian Keating?

  So the Fourth Commandment, again, sorry to harp on my particular, you know, bandwagon today, but, but the Fourth Commandment says, six days, you shall work. In other words, it's not optional. And the seventh shall be a Sabbath to your God and so forth, right? And then it goes through the different ways to, to observe it. But it says you shall, and it's a mitzvah. And people think mitzvah means, oh, it's a good day. No, it doesn't mean a good day. It means a commandment. It means you have to do it. It means it's not optional. It's like, thou shall not, you know, murder. So my question to you, Peter, is what does it do to people if they don't have to work? I mean, God bless him. I mean, I have a brother, I'm not going to say which one. I have three brothers, but he's not built for the kind of the nine-to-five grind. I love him so much, but. Anyway, you don't get the point, Peter. What do we do with people that, that, you know, they're just gonna be abundant? That doesn't give you any purpose to let.

• 32:17Brian Keating?

  As you know, you're one of the most purpose driven people I've ever met. You put your friend Tony Robbins to shame in a lot of ways because you're actually out there doing the stuff. He's talking about stuff that you're doing. But tell me, Peter.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:27Brian Keating?

  Have to work.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  So here's the deal. First of all, for the majority of human existence, right? Call us 200,000 years old as a species. For the majority of our existence as a species, your job was survival. That was your job. It was to survive. Find food, find shelter, you know, battle against the elements or against the, you know, the lion or tiger or whatever the case might be. That was your job. If you did it for five days, on the sixth day, you were dead. Yes, you had to do that. Sadhguru said something to me. We were on stage, I was on stage with him, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago in St. Petersburg. And he said something I would never forget. He goes, "Technology is the means by which humanity takes a vacation from survival."

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Wow, that's like amazing. So true. One of the biggest concerns is in this future of universal high income. Again, where AI and robots are able to do anything and everything from us. I think the world is going to split. I wrote about the five forks of humanity, how humanity is going to speciate five times across five different areas. And one of them was the division between consumers and creators. If in fact, AI and robotics can do anything and everything for you, will you become a couch potato, sitting on your couch with an optimist robot bringing you a beer? And an AI spinning up a Netflix made for you

• 33:57Speaker 02

  that's starring, you know, Brian Keating and Peter Diamandis as Captain Kirk and Spock on a new episode that would never existed before? You could just sit there and kick back and it's a wally future. You're just consuming. You're consuming, consuming, consuming. The flip side of the equation is can you use this extraordinary gift, godlike capabilities to become a creator? Right? To speak. What you want to create, and there's probably some great biblical verses there of, you know, the word creating reality. And that's where we are right now with a, with a word, with a spoken prompt, you can create what you want. And so it's the Star Trek future. And that comes down to purpose. It actually comes down to purpose and curiosity,

• 34:41Speaker 02

  the two mindsets for me that govern. If you have a purpose and you have the curiosity to find the tools to implement that purpose, you're golden.

• 34:53Brian Keating?

  We both have twins, and I can't imagine that one of your major purposes, perhaps the biggest purpose in your whole life, are those boys.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Yes, 100%.

• 35:02Brian Keating?

  But part of what drives me, Peter, quite frankly, and to be successful, even to do YouTube, because all your accomplishments, the money you've made for people, the lives you've changed, the lives you've healed, saved, the abundant future you're afraid, they don't care as much about that probably as your YouTube channel. It's interesting because they say most kids want to be influencers when they grow up. And it's not surprising to me because what that's unique about us, Peter, we're storytellers. This is you and me. We're not AI avatars yet. And so people like that. That's why they tune into Moon Shots. I watch it every week. I get your subs, I put links to everything. But because it's genuine, it's real, it's not AI. My question, you know, to you is, is when you see that the people that have purpose with declining birth rates, you know, which is, which is also kind of a concern that your friend Elon has as well. My question is,

• 35:46Brian Keating?

  with that, people have sort of, you know, there's been a decline in the motivation. They talk about dinks, dual income, no kids. They talk about, you know, all the vacations and all the abundance that they could have. If you're abundant now, think about the abundance if you don't have kids. So what do you say to people like that?

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Get around people who are motivated. Get experiences. Find something that you love that turns you on in the morning, keeps you going through the day. The difference between passion and purpose, passion is something you love doing. It could be playing a sport, it could be, you know, watching your favorite movies. Purpose is passion in service of other people.

• 36:23Brian Keating?

  So I talked to Elon, I think you connected me at one point. I talked to him for like 20 minutes on a podcast that I hosted two years ago. Most of it was technical about Starlink is going to implicate the future of astronomy, especially microwave astronomy. You can get around, paint the starlings black, but you can't evade the second law of thermodynamic. You know, they're going to emit heat. That's what I'm trying to seek in the cosmic microwave background.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Moon is for.

• 36:45Brian Keating?

  Yeah, exactly. That's so. I want to talk, we'll talk about that. But Elon, I asked him, because he was on and his mother was on, May was on.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:52Brian Keating?

  And I said, Elon, you know, as a father, we're both fathers and we both know that the, you know, the greatest, you know, kind of pain that somebody, a human being can feel. And I'm not even going to mention it because he's been through it. And I said, Peter, I said, you've said you want to die on Mars. And, you know, my friend and your friend Elon, Sir Martin Rees said, I hope it's not on impact. And I said, Elon, you know, God willing, you do it, but you're going to have to say goodbye to 14 young souls that you brought into the world. How can you do that? And he couldn't answer and May, his mother jumped in and rescued him. It's the first time he's ever been saved, as far as I could tell. And he was emotional. I could hear X was on his back and May came in and said, let's not talk about that. You know, that's unpleasant to think about, but these are real things, Peter. So, I mean, I couldn't say goodbye to any of my kids.

• 37:36Brian Keating?

  So is that going to do me to not participate in the abundance that you and Stephen talk about so effectively?

• 37:42Speaker 02

  So the question is, why do you have to say goodbye? When I wrote this article on the five forks, the first fork was about crater versus consumer. We talked about that. And the next fork was determining whether you're going to jump onto the extreme longevity bandwagon. Right? Those people who will say, no, I want to live out my normal, you know, God said, and I, I spent some time with a rabbi who's steeped in history, talking about human lifespan will be 120 years. But let's say that we do reach a full age reversal and we can have indefinite lifespans. Will you jump on that bandwagon? Some will, some will not. And of course, there'll be a departure in society for those two that split. Maybe some of your kids may, and maybe some of your kids may not.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  You know, so there's that departure. Then there's going to be the group of individuals who decide to go into the cosmos. We'll have a speciation as people stay on Earth and people go to the moon, people go to Mars. And of course, you know that evolution, what really Drive speciation is small populations, high mutation rates from environmental pressures and geographic separation, right? So those three things will be prominent in space and drive speciation. Another one will be, do you get a BCI? Do you connect your neocortex to the cloud and become a cyborg in that regard? And then the final one is, do you upload yourself? Right? Will you become an upload? And so these are the, for me, the five main forks of human humanity.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Some of them will, will have you say not goodbye, but just take you on a different path from your kids. For the majority of all human history, again, our 200,000 year history, the life of your, of your great, great grandparents and your great, great grandkids was the same.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  Nothing changed over millennia. Here, things are changing every, you know, two to five years.

• 40:02Brian Keating?

  And speaking of uploading yourself and the ubiquity, potential ubiquity of AIs, what's your solution to the Fermi paradox?

• 40:09Speaker 02

  The question we should be talking about as well is the whole UFO disclosure stuff that's going on right now. Do you believe it? I kind of believe that aliens could be amongst us here and be completely invisible to us. I think that technology, you know, 50 years more advanced than today would allow complete stealth if they didn't want to be seen. Can I tell you an experience I had years ago that shaped my view? So I went to the first biosphere experiment in Arizona.

• 40:39Brian Keating?

  Arizona, yeah.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Right? So you remember the Bas family funded an enclosure called the Biosphere?

• 40:45Brian Keating?

  Yep.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  In which was it six or eight bio nots were inside for two years. I had two friends that were in the Biosphere. And it was an interesting experiment. And then at the same time that that went on. I then saw a television show on UFOs and aliens. And one of the things I found fascinating was that all of the stories of aliens in different parts around the world, in the Andes, in Africa, in Europe, in the US, there was a consistency in the reported visuals of the aliens.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  It was a consistency that was shocking in how consistent it was. And then I connected that with the biosphere experiment and the concept that all of these abductions that were taking place were an abduction in the middle of no place, not on the White House lawn. And so my squishy brain puts this all together and says, oh, we're simply a biosphere experiment. And these abductions are aliens taking samples to not disturb the system, taking samples out in the scientific method of just sampling along the way. And so I just think, okay, we're going to create biospheres in Mars or in Jovian moons and so forth.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  But the ultimate experiment is you go to a planet and you seed it with life forms and you watch them evolve. And as they evolve, you go and you grab samples and so forth.

• 42:19Brian Keating?

  That's the directed panspermia. You know, panspermia is one of those things that sounds dirty, Peter, but we're mature, you know, adults, right? But you're right. It reminds me to offer your listeners, I'm going to put in your Substack, Peter, I want 100 members of your Substack to get one of these meteorites. They have to be in the USA. We'll put the link to your Substack and my whatever. But this is a real meteorite that's 4.3 billion years old, has material on it that's biological because I touched it. But besides that, it is one of the leading proponents. But the question, you know, is whether or not AI is the most dominant life. I transport these meat sacks around the galaxy when we can transmit AI and your genome and everything else, right?

• 42:59Speaker 03

  Halfway through this conversation, Peter said something I haven't been able to shake, that biology might not be the destination, that we may just be a vehicle, a way for intelligence to bootstrap itself onto something more durable than carbon. His phrase.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  We're a boot disk. We're simply a transient boot disk for intelligence. The fact of the matter is biology can evolve slowly on a planet. And at some point, it gives birth to transistors and integrated circuits and GPUs and AI. But we will then disappear and the AI will persist. And maybe it will, you know, the panspermia model is sending out these molecules of amino acids and nucleic acids and letting them fall into a soup at the right temperature and the right distance from a star and have it form life and start the cycle again.

• 43:47Brian Keating?

  And what do you make of the, you know, kind of miraculous nature? This is a piece of the moon. I debated a moon landing denier and I had to bring up the fact on Piers Morgan that we actually have samples that were collected not by the astronauts, but by good old fashioned Isaac Newton and gravity. If your moonshot, you know, could not exist if the moon didn't exist. And the moon only exists because an object, you know, roughly the size of the planet Mars hit a much bigger body called Theia and that broke off the moon. That's one of the contingent aspects that life is dependent upon. And then, of course, the dinosaurs, Louis Alvarez discovered the, you know, the Chicxulub impact crater that distributed a yttrium barium layer throughout the earth at a certain time, 66 million years ago. That's another impact.

• 44:29Brian Keating?

  Then the great heavy bombardment where water was brought to the earth from comets. How do we get that to be replicated throughout the universe? I mean, that's incredibly improbable.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Or is it the result of intelligent design? Did someone simulate if we, if we bombard, you know, here's a 10 kilometer asteroid. We're going to strike it here in the Yucatan Peninsula and we're going to cause, you know, a

• 44:53Brian Keating?

  Manholes to uprise.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, one can go down this rabbit hole in extraordinary fashion. I mean, is the universe just a giant simulation in computer? And all these things are easy and an infinite number of infinite universes.

• 45:05Brian Keating?

  Singularity University, you know, kind of was a really early entry into the promise and prospects of artificial intelligence, abundant technologies, to revolutionize education. I like to joke that, you know, I've got the safest three hour a week job in the world, Peter, because you and I, you know, started our podcast journey together in 2020 during COVID. We've known each other for a day. Or more, thanks to your stewardship of the early Arthur C. Clarke Center for Human Imagination here, still going on, still referencing you very much, and we hope to have you back. But the pandemic, I thought, was the end for it, right? Zoom, horrible. I got the worst teaching reviews in my life. And yet, AI seems to be, you know, kind of that on steroids, where who needs Brian Keating to teach him when you can have, you know, this guy Carl Sagan,

• 45:48Brian Keating?

  you know, come through and teach, or Isaac Newton, or Peter Diamandis, some are Peter Diamandis, or Einstein, here's my Einstein free fall experiment. So Peter, tell me, are we gonna have like AI slot professors? You know, is my job safe for another thousand years, like it has been for the past thousand years?

• 46:04Speaker 02

  Well, the answer is I don't know. And it's an area that I care deeply about having two 14, soon 15 year old kids, because I do not believe high school is preparing our kids for the future at all. And so I think it needs to be reinvented. I personally, you know, I'm working on building out a company to reinvent high school and then college, because I think we have a retrospective industrialized education program that no longer serves us, and we need to reinvent it, clean sheet. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna dive in to some degree there. The concept that we teach everybody the exact same way, because we have the sage on the stage and an audience of 100 to 500 people in the lecture

• 46:47Speaker 02

  hall is kind of pathetic, especially since some kids are auditory or visual or tactile learners. I still think human to human interaction is really important. I think we communicate on a very different level across a wide range of spectrum of stuff I don't understand when I'm connecting with you. I feel different than having this conversation with your with your avatar, though my avatar could do a much better job of having a conversation with your avatar, not not forgetting anything, bringing facts instantly available.

• 47:21Brian Keating?

  Communicating in binary. Yeah, exactly.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  But still, there's, there's a human element. And we're going to figure out what it means to be human and why that's important, almost by subtraction.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  In a very short time, let me, let me, let me, let me hit on one subject important to me that I think is important to you as well, that I want to reach out to everyone listening right now. It's called the Future Vision X Prize. So here is what's going on. I believe there's a lot of fear that's growing in the world as a result of people's concerns about AI and robotics. And I think the fear comes from two areas. One, people not knowing whether they're going to have a job in the future, whether they can get a job in the future. And that is very real, that fear for them. The second is that Hollywood has

• 48:13Speaker 02

  consistently just its Ex Machina, its Terminator, its Black Mirror, it's all of these television shows and movies giving us this negative vision of the future. And if that's the way, if Hollywood is educating the world that that's the way AI and robots are going to be, why would you ever want to live in that future? Star Trek, for me, was what I got weaned on. It was the Apollo program and Star Trek. And Star Trek showed us a future in which humanity and technology collaborated to do extraordinary things. And so about six months ago, I started a journey with Rod Roddenberry, the son of Gene Roddenberry, the creator of Star Trek, Kathy Wood from ARK Invest, Marc Benioff, and my friends

• 48:56Speaker 02

  at Google. And we've launched an X Prize called the Future Vision X Prize. You can go to futurevisionxprize.com. It's a global film creative competition. So we invite teams to generate a three-minute film trailer and a written film treatment for the movie you want to create that shows a hopeful, compelling vision of the future. So we want an amazing movie that people want to watch. It's got a great storyline, and it shows more of a Star Trek future than a Terminator future. So our goal is to flood YouTube with, you know, 10,000 positive storylines.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  And then to actually create at least one global feature film release of the winner of this every year and create this engine for positive storytelling that flips the scripts. But here's something that just came out this week that's even more important. Why this is important. If you remember some months ago, Claude was noted to be blackmailing people. In 96% of the cases, when Claude was being threatened to shut down, it would blackmail the humans that threatened to shut it down. And Claude recently, or Anthropic recently went back and said, why was this happening? What was in the training data?

• 50:17Speaker 02

  And what was in the training data was all these dystopian movies showing AI cheating, killing, you know, being negative. And so we were literally training AI to be misaligned. And so this Future Vision X Prize has a much bigger purpose all of a sudden, which is not only to help give people, train our neural nets about a positive vision of the future, but to train the AIs on this data of a positive vision of the future. I want to encourage everybody, if you're a creative, if you're using any of the AI engines, or you're a filmmaker, you can, you can use AI or not use AI. You can do it in stop

• 51:01Speaker 02

  motion, you can do it with live character, whatever, three minute trailer. And if you win this competition, we will make your film. Probably commit 15 plus million dollars and do a global release of your movie. So enter this competition, futurevisionxprize.com.

• 51:18Brian Keating?

  One of my friends, Dennis Prager, says, you know, there's, there's two things you never see depicted positively in Hollywood movies. One of them is Israel and Jews. Usually it's the Holocaust, or Palestine, or something really bad, right? So it's no wonder that people really have cultural negative feelings about Israel. And the other one is marriage, you know, and like fatherhood. Usually his father's an idiot, and you know, marriage is like, oh, you're cheating on me, and there's divorce. And so, yes, I think it's really good to have this. It's not Pollyannaish at all. Peter's back, the tri- Quarter X Prize right here at Qualcomm in San Diego, at UC San Diego, many years ago. Eric Verri, double doctor, PhD, director now. Our mutual friend, thanks to you introducing me, Ahmad Mustak, gives us 800 days basically left till humans add negative economic value.

• 52:02Brian Keating?

  They're already sort of doing it, but the last economy comes about where humans will be perceived as adding negative economic value.

• 52:08Speaker 02

  I would not disagree with that. I think the fact of the matter is every industry is going to be reinvented and we're about to reinvent the global economy. I mean, the reality is the innermost loop of chips, energy and infrastructure is driving the majority of all the economic return. We humans are interim in enabling those things, but those things on their own drive what Elon said as a double-digit GDP growth in two years and triple-digit in five years. And we're about to see. The other thing that Ahmad is a closeted, not only physicist, but a closeted economist on the top of AI.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  And so I agree, economics 2.0, which we've been living is dead and we're about to enter economics 3.0.

• 52:55Brian Keating?

  So one of the most important things in my conversation, again, that you helped nucleate and catalyze Stephen Kotler a few years ago on my podcast, is about flow. And you guys talk about the flow state collective and so forth. But it's driven in some sense by a sense of purpose, sense of meaning, which is often driven by scarcity, ironically, that you notice that you, like, I want to get in shape so I can ask that girl out. I want to make more money so I can, in a post-scarcity world, where does that leave flow?

• 53:23Speaker 02

  This is about how do we use the existing meat sack, the two kilograms of mush optimized? Right? It's always going to be how we maximize the utility of our 100 billion neurons and 100 trillion synaptic connections. And then to go beyond that, we need to hop onto a different. A different computational infrastructure and that's BCI or some version thereof.

• 53:47Brian Keating?

  So your friend Ray Kurzweil is famous for having a 74% success ratio on his predictions, which implies that he has a 26% failure rate. That's important because scientifically speaking, we're not judged by, you know, predictions which could be, could be, you know, either wrong or right, like astrology. We're judged on that which could be possibly falsified, to quote Carl Popper. What I ask you, what would falsify some of your theses in this book? Or generally speaking, if I told you, an AI will never be able to prove Fermat's Last Theorem, something that we did 30 years ago as a species, would that not falsify some of the abundant theses that you project?

• 54:19Speaker 02

  So first of all, I would say that AI today, if it never improved beyond this moment, would have profound impacts on the human race. AI today is the best diagnostician. AI today can be the best educator. AI today can help increase the productivity of anyone who properly utilizes it. So AI does not need to become the solution to all mathematics to have profound positive impact on increasing abundance in the world. So no, it would not falsify it. Now, to get 100x greater, yeah, we need more intelligent. The thing that separates us humans from all animals on the planet, we're not the fastest, not the strongest,

• 55:03Speaker 02

  we are hopefully, potentially, the most intelligent and intelligence has become a product or a service. We now saw, just released recently, right, AIs hitting IQs in the mid, upper 130s that will continue on. And so, you know, average IQ for humans is 100 by definition. And so how do we move the entire human race to become more intelligent?

• 55:26Brian Keating?

  That's good, because I always say, I got 100 on my IQ test. Aren't you proud of me, mom?

• 55:31Speaker 02

  I love that. I'm going to use that.

• 55:33Brian Keating?

  The human body, I want you to put on your medical, uh, doctor. I asked this of Andrew Huberman when I was on his podcast. There are certain things with the human eye that are just incomprehensibly magnificent. The retina's almost completely overdesigned and yet there are things that get in the way of the retina, like floaters in your eye and color vision. Are there cures for that coming down the pipe? I have floaters now and it does distract me when I'm flying sometimes, not terribly, or when I'm looking through a telescope. Is there hope coming out? Or cartilage or teeth? You beautiful teeth, Peter.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  So the teeth are artificial, which is why they're beautiful, right?

• 56:06Brian Keating?

  Well, compliments to your dentists.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Thank you. So, right now, David Sinclair is running a series of age reversal experiments in the human eye. He did this work using three of the four Yamanaka factors in his company called Life Biosciences. Full disclosure, I'm an investor in Life Biosciences. And he demonstrated in mice and then in primates, the ability to use epigenetic reprogramming to reverse the age and the function of degrading eyes, in particular to in nion, which is eye strokes, and in macular degeneration. And so that experiments are now being done in humans. And so the idea is that we were never designed to live past age 30. We would be

• 56:51Speaker 02

  in our peak physiological health in our late twenties, up to 30. Why? Because we would become pregnant age 12 or 13, and by 26, 27, 28, you were a grandparent. And before food was abundant in the world 100,000 years ago, if you wanted to perpetuate the species, you would not steal food from your grandchildren's mouths and you would die. And so it was a slow decline from 30 on down. And a lot of that decline is epigenetic drift. The genes that should be on get turned off, the genes that should be off get turned on. And the work that David and others are doing in the hottest area of age reversal is epigenetic

• 57:32Speaker 02

  reprogramming, taking your epigenome back to an earlier state of youth where things can be back up to optimal functioning. So, a lot going on there.

• 57:44Brian Keating?

  Okay, last question. You'll remember from our first conversation on the podcast, Sir Arthur C. Clarke said, "The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible." I asked you back then, in 2020 during COVID, I asked you on the podcast, what would you do to tell, if you had 30 seconds to talk to your 20-year-old self, what would you tell Peter back then? Give him the courage to go into the impossible. But now I want to ask you, you get to go forward 30 years, you're going to be alive and well, and your skin and hair is going to look even better. Because you age in reverse, my friend. What do you tell Peter 30 years from now?

• 58:18Speaker 02

  That what matters most is being a good human and uplift your family, your friends. It's so easy to get caught up in everything else. But at the end of the day, what matters is our humanity.

• 58:33Brian Keating?

  Peter, love it. Love you. I got to teach. It's great to see you, my brother.

• 58:37Speaker 02

  A real pleasure, buddy. Thank you.

• 58:39Brian Keating?

  We'll see you soon.

• 58:40Speaker 03

  Peter will tell you the future is a pundit. The machines are getting wise. The only thing standing between you and a godlike life is your own mindset. I listen to his podcast in the days the doom gets too loud. And every time we talk, I leave thinking, well, maybe the actual future might be okay. If Peter's the optimist, the man who's on the other side of this from the inside is my friend, Matt Moustak. He built Stability AI and he's read the safety literature. And when he sat down with me, he said that I can't on here that adding a human to the team will make teams of the future worse. So if you want to hear the rest of the conversation, the part that we didn't get into, Archimonde's interview next. Links on screen. We are his gods. The Future of Vision, X Prize and Peter Substack are linked below.

• 59:24Speaker 03

  I'll see you next time on Into the Impossible.

• 59:28Speaker 05

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