556: The World Belongs to the Brazen and The Brave.

>Join Jocko Underground Full Episodes< https://app.redcircle.com/shows/64a89f88-a245-4098-8d8d-496325ec4f74/exclusive-content Continuing examination of René Quinton's Maxims on War, exploring courage, danger, ambition, leadership, obedience, and the randomness of combat. The discussion ultimately comes back to a powerful principle for war and everyday life: learn to distinguish real danger from the danger created by your imagination. 00:00 — Maxims on War: Extreme Views and Human Nature 05:34 — War, Death, and the Randomness of Combat 16:57 — Courage, Promotion, and the Danger of Ambition 23:27 — Bravery, Jealousy, and the Power of Example 28:51 — When Danger Becomes Real 34:22 — Real Danger vs. Imagined Danger 40:20 — Courage vs. Recklessness 48:44 — The Leader Multiplies the Team 51:07 — Why It's Easier to Obey Than Decide 57:25 — Questioning Orders and the Burden of Command 1:04:55 — Cowardly Leaders and Decentralized Command 1:11:25 — Do Hard Things. Don't Let Fear Stop You. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 556 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:07Jocko Willink?

  And on the last podcast, number 555, Triple Nickel, we introduced a book called Maxims on War by Renee Quentin, and we didn't make it through the entire thing. And or we didn't make, we only made, the book is divided into thirds. We made it halfway through the first third. And we're going to pick up where we left off. We might get to the second two thirds at a later time. But if you haven't, so if you haven't listened to Podcast 555, start with that, to get some background on Renee Quentin, a little bit deeper. He's a biologist, he's an aviator, he's a soldier, served four years in combat in World War One, wounded seven times, decorated by France, decorated by England, decorated by

• 0:52Jocko Willink?

  America, decorated by Belgium, and had some very passionate and extreme viewpoints about war and about human nature. That certainly gives us some lessons learned about those things and some things to think about. Some things that some underlying tones of our existence that we should at least consider. We don't have to agree with them. It doesn't seem like Echo agrees with a number of them.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  I do agree with most of them, yes. But but I just want to make the distinction in the spirit of clarification and accuracy. I do agree with them. Okay, I just don't necessarily agree with the implied positioning of everything. Because you're saying all these things are true, and that's sort of it to life. That's what I think that that's like one of maybe three buckets that are it to life. He's like, he's saying martial martial virtues, like war and fighting and all that that comes with, but what he's talking about. And but I think there's like one that's alongside it.

• 1:54Jocko Willink?

  Which is?

• 1:55Speaker 01

  That coexists with it. I think actually, there's two as of right now. I'm sure there's more. That is building, or one might call it collaboration. And then the other one is the we'll call it, now getting too graphic, the interaction with the opposite sex, procreation, we'll call it. Okay, so what that entails, what the building and collaboration entails, and then what the war entails, I think those are kind of the three pillars. There could be more, there could be, I don't know, like some artistic one or something like this, maybe. But I think those are the three pillars. So within the context of the martial pillar, we'll say, I agree, freaking, yeah, all day. In fact, it should be extreme, because that's what he's talking about. That's what makes it like more clear. You see what I'm saying? Yep. I'm with it.

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, we'll dive into it. We'll offer some more extreme viewpoints here. And, you know, extreme viewpoints, oftentimes, there's a reason that they're being called extreme. But if you back them off a little bit, from the extreme point, and you bring them down to a more moderate position, they can help you understand things better.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Fully. It's like the sun, you know, if you're like, hey, let me, let me let you know about the temperature of the sun, you know, very useful. Yeah, fundamentally useful. And you're like, it's temperature of the sun, the actual temperature of the sun is, that's too hot. It's useless. You see what I'm saying? As in and of itself. But it's like, no, no, you back up a little bit, you find all the fruits of the temperature of the sun.

• 3:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm not so sure about that. What you mean by it. But I thought, what I would say is this,

• 3:29Jocko Willink?

  the reason that people tend to take extreme positions is because they're easier to take. It's just easier. It's just mentally simpler. It turns everything into a binary, and you can remove all this nuance that, you know, you, you have to admit that you're wrong sometimes. Like, it's easier just to be a no, I'm never wrong about this thing. This is the way it is. Right? And so it's just an easier thing to do. That's why people take extreme views. And by the way, it's not only, it's like an extreme view, and you're in a meeting, and you know, Echo's saying, hey, you know, we need to put all our money into this kind of marketing, you know, it's just easier for you to say that. Because that's what you know, and that's what you believe. And even though you might not believe it fully, but you, but you're just gonna, hey, we all our money marketing here.

• 4:14Jocko Willink?

  And I mean, clearly, on the political side, it's like, there, it's so much easier just to make an extreme political statement. Unfortunately, once you do that, now you've boxed yourself in, you get no room to maneuver. And when you take something to the extreme, it's impossible that there's not some outliers. Yeah. So just extreme statements, it's like the statement, the always or never statements, like never say never, and never say always. It's like, yeah, because there's things that are going to be outside the bounds of what you're saying. So some of the stuff that he's saying is extreme, and maybe, you know, there's definitely, definitely outliers that are

• 4:59Jocko Willink?

  outside the bounds of what he's saying. But if you take a general principle, if you just keep in mind, like, oh, yeah, uh, men like to fight. Exactly. That's a good thing to know. Yeah, that's a good thing to know. And a lot of times, you know, you, you know, from a political viewpoint, it's like, oh, yeah, we shouldn't go to war. Cool. And everyone says we shouldn't go to war. But if you don't remember that there's some inherent thing that makes people want to go to war, and then you're surprised when you go to war. Like, I can't believe this is happening. Oh, really? Because we've been at war with each other for 30,000 years. And again, I'm not saying that's good. I'm just telling you, don't be surprised. Don't be surprised when a male reacts

• 5:37Jocko Willink?

  violently to something happening. We can't be surprised by these things. So that's why I think it's good to, to at least hear what his perspective on some of these topics are. So let's get back to the book. Once again, Maxims on War by Renee Quentin. Here we go. War kills desire before it kills men. Hearts there are dead to themselves. This is an interesting one, because it's a little bit contradictory of some of the other things that he said, where all this great virtue rises. Now he's saying that like desire is dead. Then you can kind of make that connection. Like, you no longer have these desires. You just have this, this, this will to fight. It's like a purification

• 6:22Jocko Willink?

  ritual, as I said on the last one. All things are distant seen from war. And again, this is something about you and I talked about on the last one. When you're at war, all of a sudden, these things that are going on, your mortgage, your rent, this other stuff that's back in the world, like in Vietnam, they would call it the world, right? Because they're not there in Vietnam, you know? Back in the world, we don't know what's going on. Everything's distant. Mary Jo that you were going out with, and whatever, you know, like, you're not thinking about her, you're thinking about staying alive. And where, you know, what about the mortgage? What about the rent? What about this, that, and the other? None of it matters anymore. Women, parents, children, all fade into

• 6:59Jocko Willink?

  the background. The man who fights has no past. You've heard me tell the story about how my kids wanted, my wife wanted to show my kids where I was sleeping when I was on deployment. And I went to take, I took a picture, like a digital picture, and I looked at it, I was like, oh, no. And so I had to take a folder out of like, my bag, and hang up some pictures that I had in that folder of my family, took the pictures, took the pictures back, took the picture of my bed with the pictures of them near it, and then pulled the pins out and put it away, and put those, you know, pictures away. Because it was like, I didn't want them front and center. Yeah, you know, I got shit that I got to think about. So what are we doing? So women, and by the way, if you're women, and your

• 7:43Jocko Willink?

  parents, and your children fade, that means everything's gone. Right? You got to focus on what you're doing. War heals the soul. It is the realm of forgetting. In war, one is happy simply to live. Existence becomes a kind of continual gift. Which is interesting. Again, he contradicts himself, because on the last, in the last maxims that we read, he's talking about how like, simply to live is not really a thing. Well, from a heroic standpoint, we're not looking to just live.

• 8:16Jocko Willink?

  Said heroes too are sometimes tempted to just live.

• 8:22Jocko Willink?

  War is sacred because justice does not reign there. And he's got a, he's got a footnote here. It says, justice does not preside over combat. It is the virtuous or intelligent male who triumphs, but the one who is strongest in that moment, or sorry, is not the virtuous or intelligent male who triumphs, but the one who is strongest in the moment, the same who will fall when faced with a stronger man. Life and death then are matters of occasion. It is, in fact, virtue that nature most often punishes. This is interesting, because this is something that is 100% right. Like you,

• 9:02Jocko Willink?

  there's randomness in combat, where you're just, someone just gets killed by whatever, by, you know, a random bullet, a stray bullet, or a bomb, and the bomb goes off, and it could have hit you, it could have hit him, it could have hit my vehicle, could have hit your vehicle. There's a randomness to it. So justice does not preside over combat. That being said, you, you, you kind of want to, as much as you can, stack the deck in your favor. Right? You can't pull all the aces spades out of the deck. There's an ace of spade in there that can catch you. But you want to at least stack the deck as much as your favors you possibly can.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  That's interesting, because Kate, Kate Nuts, he talks about this, just to me, very often, where he's like, hey, like, a lot of this stuff, because, you know, he did some cool stuff, and you know, you know, was, he's a decorated, you know, yeah, person. And, but he was like, he's like, Brad, so funny. It's like people like, they give so much, this is his words, you know, just his perspective. It's like, people give so much credit to this stuff or whatever. But it's like, it's just all luck. It's like, there's so many bullets and bombs and all this stuff that happens unintentionally, like, literally, bullet can hit you and not be meant for you. Literally, that's the way it is.

• 10:15Jocko Willink?

  Of course.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And to me, that wasn't like, oh, some big surprise. I was like, bro, that's half of what I think goes on most of the time. Even when you watch, like, war movies, you're like, right, you know. So he'll just talk about that the whole time. Or it's like, right, it's just like, I just felt like I lucked out in a lot of ways, you know? And it's like, people, a lot of times, some people, they think that they're this big, massive hero. But it's like, but you just lucked out. You know, there's guys who didn't make it for the same reason you made it, just luck, just on the other side, you know?

• 10:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's, like, you can make decisions as a leader, and it can, it can be the dumbest decision that you made a total mistake on, and everyone's fine. And you can make a great decision, that's the perfect tactical decision that moment, and you can lose three guys. Yeah, like, that's crazy. And by the way, you can also make bad decisions and get a bunch of people killed. You can make good decisions and everyone lives like it. But there is an absolute element of, what does he call it? Just, just randomness. And again, it's not the virtue, not the virtuous or the intelligent male who triumphs, or the strongest. Those are definitely stacking the deck in your favor. You want to be strong, you want to be smart, you want to do the right thing. But that's no guarantee. No guarantee at all.

• 11:29Jocko Willink?

  No matter how invulnerable one imagines oneself, some blows land so near, they remind us we are mortal. And there's no doubt about that.

• 11:42Jocko Willink?

  Death is nothing. The horror of war lies in physical life. Again, he says some stuff that's very extreme, right? But what I, and he's got a footnote on this one. In war, morale means overcoming physical life more than facing death. And it's sort of like, the idea, you remember the idea of like letting go of your ego? And how you, how that's liberating, right? I think this is the same type of thing is like, oh, death is not the thing that I'm trying to overcome. It's like all these attachments that I have to life. So the horror in war is the physical life. That's what I'm, that's what I gotta get away from. Death? Oh, let's go.

• 12:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I'm not encouraging that. I'm just trying to give his, interpret, interpret his perspective. Only one thing is truly great, to play one's hand against fate. The true games are those where life is at stake. There you go. Uh, it's kinda tough to argue with that.

• 12:44Jocko Willink?

  But, you know, this is again, not encouraging people to go out and put their lives at stake for the sake of uh, doing something truly great. Now, when Alex Honnold climbs El Cap? Solo, free solo? Like, what is it that makes that so special? We all know what makes that so special. All of us know.

• 13:09Jocko Willink?

  War is a terrible game in win, in which one always wins. Except once.

• 13:20Jocko Willink?

  You ever see the movie Heat?

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I saw Heat. Yeah, hell yeah.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  Bro, you need to step up your classics.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  I know.

• 13:26Jocko Willink?

  Cause the last podcast, I, I had to just do a full, uh, quote.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:31Jocko Willink?

  From, uh, from Apocalypse Now. And now I ask you've seen the movie Heat and you give me, you know, hesitation, then, then like a subtle, I guess I've seen it.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 13:41Jocko Willink?

  These are classics, bro.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got, hey, look, some movies I've seen, some movies I've seen many, many times.

• 13:49Jocko Willink?

  What's the movie you've seen the most times? I gotta feel in this is not gonna be.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  There's a few of them. No, they're pretty obvious ones. Um, Conan the Barbarian. These are ones that like, you can say like five words and I'll know the whole scene. So, Conan the Barbarian, Training Day, Terminator One.

• 14:04Jocko Willink?

  Training Day made the list, huh?

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I've watched that many times. And Tremors One, by the way.

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  You've told me about Tremors One before. What's so good about Tremors One?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  I don't know. It's freaking just good. I think it's, yeah, whatever. It's a lot of things all put together correctly, in my opinion.

• 14:21Jocko Willink?

  Well, in the movie Heat, the cop, played by Al Pacino, tells the crook, played by Robert De Niro. Uh, at least I think that's the conversation. Yeah, it is. And he's like, I, I, I only need to win one time. Like you made, you make one mistake and you're screwed for life. I could, hey, if I catch you, it doesn't really matter to me in my life. I carry on, but you screw up one time, it's game over for you.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Is that the scene in the restaurant?

• 14:47Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I'm pretty sure it is.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  I recreated that, you might know. I recreated that scene. Kenny Florian and Henat Olarunja.

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  Dude, Ken, Kenny Florian did an amazing job.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, he knew what he was doing.

• 15:00Jocko Willink?

  Like, he should have gotten some kind of, like, acting award.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  To be honest, they both should have. If you watch it, it's like.

• 15:06Jocko Willink?

  You're right. Oh yeah, that's right. Cause Henat plays, uh, plays Robert De Niro. That's right. Yeah, they did great.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  But Kenny stands out because you just wouldn't expect it, you know? Cause Henat Olarunja, that guy goes hard, he can do a lot of stuff and we're used to it. You know, we've seen him in action before, but Kenny just came freaking off the top ropes with the award-winning performance.

• 15:24Jocko Willink?

  Anyways, that's the idea, is like, hey,

• 15:29Jocko Willink?

  in war, you, you win every time. You only lose once. You only lose one time. And this is the same thing, we know, for America, fighting

• 15:41Jocko Willink?

  in the past, like in, in Vietnam, in Iraq, in Afghanistan. Like, we value human life so much, and the enemy doesn't value human life so much. So, you know, we kill a number of them, and to them, they just carry on. And for us, like, every loss of life is a travesty. And so, we, we can't make mistakes. And it's a very similar unfair setup, but they don't value human life like we do. They don't.

• 16:14Jocko Willink?

  The most attentive man is the one who awaits death. I can give an affirmative to that. I can give an affirmative to that, and yet, it's funny how you give me like, out on patrol and like, someone's falling asleep. Or are you like, you know what I mean? Like, as attentive as you're supposed to be?

• 16:31Jocko Willink?

  The nearness of death brings peace to the soul, is because men believe themselves immortal that they consent to evil. One must believe in time enough to reap its fruits to bring oneself to commit a crime. That's an interesting thing, right? You, you're only committing a crime if you think you're gonna have enough time to like, reap the benefits for it. So if you're not gonna reap the benefits, well, I guess I'm not gonna commit the crime.

• 16:58Jocko Willink?

  Napoleon always based promotion on courage. Courage reveals physical vigor, energy, strength of character, and above all, love of combat, the supreme quality in war. Courage confers the prestige that inspires the troops and the experience that legitimizes bold decisions. It implies the prudence without which it would be punished. It proves a cold intelligence, clear sighted in the conditions of battle. It guarantees daring in success, firmness in adversity, and morale that seizes or salvages a situation.

• 17:41Jocko Willink?

  It shapes the commander who is supple, resolute, bold, and unflinching. No other military quality assures so many other. To deny courage a central role in promotion is a fundamental error.

• 17:59Jocko Willink?

  I gotta give it up for that whole statement. Now, can you have people that are very courageous? And perhaps, they're not the person that you wanna put in charge of a major operation? Or at an operational level or at a strategic level? Yes, of course. But, should it be a heavily weighted component? Yes, because for the very reason he's talking about here, like, if someone has courage, that means they have energy, that means they have strength of character, that means they have a love of combat, that means, that means they're gonna go get after it. Which is, which is why you need to heavily weight that in war. You can't put all the weight on it. And he even talks about here, he's like, you gotta, it implies prudence, right? It implies that you're courageous, but you're prudent.

• 18:46Jocko Willink?

  Cause if, if you, if you were just to say reckless, like, we go one step beyond courage and now we get to reckless. So courage is like, oh, there's prudence in there.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Is that why you say sometimes not? Because someone with courage, or let's say, over indexing on courage?

• 19:02Jocko Willink?

  Courage, let's say they're brushing up against recklessness. Now we go full recklessness.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 19:08Jocko Willink?

  Like, do you really want that guy in charge? No. We want somebody that has at least, you know, some level of prudence.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, gotcha.

• 19:15Jocko Willink?

  Soldiers pay with their lives for promotion errors. Yep. Ain't that the truth? Seniority costs armies dearly. It is the shameful side of promotion principles. Seniority being like, oh, you've been in this job for a certain amount of time? Cool, you're the next guy to get promoted. Instead of saying like, Echo, you know what? You're better than Fred and I'm gonna promote you over Fred even though Fred's been doing it longer. So, just advancing people just based on their seniority is not good.

• 19:44Jocko Willink?

  Outside of genius, ambition is a flaw in war. It discredits a man. The man who seeks elevation through war, forgets that war only asks of men their sacrifice. The reward lies in displaying one's virtues. The rank does not matter. And by the way, if, there's a few times that he mentions genius and like genius being the exception, I think he's just solely doing that because of Napoleon. Like, he's solely, you know, as a French dude, he's making this exception that, oh yeah, ambition is terrible. Except for, unless you're a genius, which is, by the way, that's Napoleon.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  So he's saying if you're a genius, then ambition might not be as terrible, or ambition is worse than, oh, sorry, genius is worse?

• 20:32Jocko Willink?

  If you're a genius, ambition's fine.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 20:35Jocko Willink?

  But, outside of genius, if you're anybody else besides Napoleon, then it's a flaw. Because now, you're trying to get promoted through war. That's not good. That's a freaking problem, and I totally agree with that.

• 20:49Jocko Willink?

  Ambition in war is found only among non combatants. Yeah.

• 20:57Jocko Willink?

  Not necessarily precisely true because there are people that realize that the way they get promoted is through getting some level of combat. Like even in Vietnam, Vietnam, they had all kinds of jacked up things, but one of them was like, they would take a guy. They wanted to get as many people through combat leadership positions. So that they could get promoted and so guys would get like a six month tour as a company commander. Or four month tour as a company commander. Yep, I done company commander. I'm ready for, you know, Excel or operations like. They, they, the system had ambition built into it.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's interesting. There's a, a clip and it was a NFL guy, if I'm not mistaken. Um, and he was on, on the bench at this point and his, I think his coach or maybe the offensive coordinator was saying. I'm going to paraphrase this thing, but this is lit. You can watch the clip. He was like, hey, like. They're winning the game, you know, that I'm pretty sure they're winning the game. And he was like, and he was a star. He was like, hey, you're about to break this all time. Record of some sort with, I think it was rushing or something like that. You're about to like the all time record, whatever. Um, but you know, we're winning and we got guys who are coming up and.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  You know, to get them some reps would be beneficial for the team, blah, blah. He didn't explain that that much, but it was sort of implied, you know, cause he didn't want to like. Cause you could tell this coach was really looking out for this guy like, hey, bro, get that record, you know, brother's gonna be good for you kind of thing. And the guy was like, the, the words he said was no, no, no, let them eat, let them eat. I don't care about the record. So, cause they were already winning the game. The game was kinda, you know, kinda won. So he was like, no, no, no, let them get the reps. You see what I'm saying? He's not playing this game for his promotion, you know, for his external. I, I forget who it was. Yeah. Yeah. It was, but I remember watching. I was like, bro, that is a real guy right there. Real team teammate, you know? That was all in, but that's, that's a demonstration. See what I'm saying of?

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Cause let's face it, I, I don't know who I'm not saying who or whatever, but I'm saying some people would be like, bro, let me get that record. For my legacy and all this stuff, which to me like, kinda makes sense, you know? And it wasn't the kind of like, I don't think he knew they were being filmed or nothing. It was like way that, you know, one of these things. Um, but yeah, so fricking, yeah, that's what it, that's what that demonstrated right there. It was like, yeah, he was doing that thing for the, for the, uh, the virtue or whatever.

• 23:20Jocko Willink?

  Chuck, um. Ambitious men have been seen heading to the rear to earn their stripes. They are not the most guilty. The real culprits are those who organize promotion. So it's like bad enough that these guys are trying to escape the combat. But the, the worst guys are the guys that are looking at the guys that escape combat and giving them promotions.

• 23:44Jocko Willink?

  From a certain rank onward bravery discredits it count, it casts doubt on one's judgment.

• 23:53Jocko Willink?

  There's a lot of stuff coming here. To a superior or peer who lacks bravery, the brave man is an enemy. It, it, that is just such jealousy and ego, just so, so clear. And there's a little footnote, when one lacks courage, the courage of others feels almost like an insult. One does not always like to acknowledge courage. There is almost an offense, an offense in another's bravery. God, isn't it sick when you see like that kind of thing seep out in the world? When people, when people's not just their, their ego causes jealousy and the jealousy becomes straight resentment.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:35Jocko Willink?

  That's a, that's a very disturbing thing to see in the world.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  From what I understand, that process on a, a more light level is like very natural. Cause you know how like, um, you see this in the fitness kind of.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Space will say for lack of a better term, or you know, like the, let's say you have a friend group and like one of them decides to like quit. We'll say drinking and get into, just get into better health, right? And so when people who didn't choose to do that, part of the group that, that are, that's used to that whole, you know, that, that. Group dynamic and they see like someone getting in better shape and stop drinking will say. They'll look at it and it'll reflect back on them. See what I'm saying? So that's kind of where it comes from where it's like, okay, so now it's a, it's a clear reflection. Of my failings, you know, to be a better X, Y, Z kind of a thing. So it's like, oh, okay, that makes sense how that can work. Yeah. But you're right. When that turns into toxicity, let's say, yeah.

• 25:35Jocko Willink?

  That's craps in a bucket, right? All day long.

• 25:40Jocko Willink?

  War is about killing, not being killed. Okay. So now he's kind of retracting a little bit. War is about killing, not being killed. By the way, the last time, the last podcast we talked about like man's purpose is to die, right? So a little back off. I've seen massacres that a single order could have present prevented.

• 25:59Jocko Willink?

  Bravery is said to be contagious and it is because it discredits danger. That's such a, such a powerful thing to recognize, right? It's like not, it's not just, hey, you're watching someone doing something courageous and therefore you're inspired. You're watching them doing something courageous and now you're going, well, it's not actually that dangerous. It's like Mikey and the dragons, right? Mikey and the dragons, the dragons are small, like, well, once you realize the dragons are small, well, who's going to show you that the dragons are small? The person that shows courage and goes up and faces the dragons. It's wild to watch that stuff with kids, like with kids, there's some challenge or something and no one wants to do it. And then someone does it and then everyone just falls in.

• 26:43Jocko Willink?

  I mean, remember the four minute mile, like no one had ever broke the four minute mile. And then when it got broken, it was like. Within months, it had gotten broken three, four, five more times.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:51Jocko Willink?

  Because people see, oh, it's doable.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, there is a, might be a separate, different thing, but there was an element of, um. Forget what they call it. Some long lines of like collective permission or something. It's like a psychological thing where.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  It's subconscious where it's like, hey, we, we can't do that, you know, we can't do that. Until someone actually like, is like, no, like kind of breaks the rule, you know, just subconsciously like, and then they kind of break the rule and it. Gives everyone this subconscious psychological permission to do it. And then everyone, everyone's doing it now. You see what I'm saying?

• 27:27Jocko Willink?

  Chuck. Courage inspires envy. Even though, even in those who scorn it. So even the people that are like, oh, you're running around, running to your death. Even the people that talk shit about bravery still makes them jealous. And again, we know that, right? You, we do. Do you agree with that statement?

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 27:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Why is that? Because you know, even if you're a person that goes, oh, that, you know, it's, that's a waste. You shouldn't do that. You shouldn't take those additional risks. Even that person that says that deep in their soul, they're like, you know, that's, that's. I'm saying, can't be denied. It's in there.

• 28:05Jocko Willink?

  The brave rarely die on the day they expose themselves the most. Yeah. It's like the dynamics of heroic action. Are just disrupting to the natural order of things and it just, you can live. You know, that's what it feels like.

• 28:25Jocko Willink?

  Danger attracts nearly all men.

• 28:29Jocko Willink?

  Great dangers attract only exceptional natures. So danger. Attracts nearly all men. Good. And he's got a little carve out for you. Because you're like, oh, well, not everyone feels like that. You're right. He's agreeing with you. Great dangers attract only exceptional. So I would agree with this. One often heads into danger without believing in it. Then it presses close and one wishes to be elsewhere. Oh yeah. See, this is what this, you're starting to see the, the humanity. Behind the hymn, you know, war is the best. And now he's going, yeah, you head into danger when you don't really believe it. But once you get there and you feel it, man, I kind of wish I was somewhere else.

• 29:14Jocko Willink?

  When's the last time you had that feeling?

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Uh, last time I had it a little bit in the same situation in the ocean in Hawaii. So I went to a beach that I literally grew up going to. And it was, there was no one in the water, middle of the day. It's called Brenniki's. Good beach, south side, Kauai. Oh, and then.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I went in and immediately I feel like, oh, the current is kind of stronger and the the sand that's usually on the bottom. It was gone. There's no sand. So it's deeper and it's just rocks like you can't get your footing. And yeah, and it was just rough and the current, you know, the current didn't like wash me out or nothing like that. I was just like, oh, this is not fun. You know, I can't like get my bearings. You can't really like do much out there. So I'm like, all right, let me just go back in. And I was trying to go back in and it just wouldn't let me go back in and you can't really touch either. So I'm fighting like whitewashing current the whole time. So basically the moves that I was making to go into shore were not working. And after like a few minutes, I was like, bro, am I like, this is more powerful than me, this whole situation. I don't have control.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  So, um, yeah, but I eventually just went slowly but surely.

• 30:24Jocko Willink?

  Swim parallel to the shore, like the whole, what'd you do? Just kept, kept getting after it? Yeah, you trying to swim to shore?

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you, you can do, you do little thing like that's the kind of beach. You can't really do the parallel thing because it's a pretty small beach. And I was in this zone that I would have to swim way out to sea to do that. And then I'd be at a different beach, whatever. But no, I just basically like, I wouldn't fight the current, but when a wave would come, I'd then I'd swim with the waves. So each wave would push me a little bit. See what I'm saying? With my swimming. So I was just slowly but surely gaining ground like that. Rather than trying to fight the current the whole time in whitewater too. You know how you don't have that much power or whatever? And then just slowly but surely I just ended up or whatever. But before that was with my kids, the beach right next door, Poipu Beach. So I went out with my kids. Uh, my son was three.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  And then my daughter was, you know, six or something like that where they could swim, but you know, they're still little kids. And the thing, again, a thing we went, we've done this many times. And we went and the lifeguard was there. I thought I told you the story. A lifeguard was there on his surfboard. He was just right by us. He was like, hey, guys, just to let you know, like the current is strong. And I'm like, bro, I grew up on this, literally learned how to swim on this beach right here. Two years old, what up? I was like, yeah, yeah, thank you. You know, like, whatever. So we just start going and he's just following us with the, with the surfboard. And then

• 31:43Jocko Willink?

  He's in the water, he's on land?

• 31:44Speaker 01

  In the water with us. So we were safe.

• 31:47Jocko Willink?

  And we had to pull you guys in?

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause bro, we were starting to swim and I was like, bro, we're not even getting there and we're not even near shore anymore. And we're getting pushed. You can't, you can't touch. And my kids are with me. So my son had a mask and a snorkel. So he didn't know what was going on. He was totally good to go, but I'm still worried because I no longer have control. See what I'm saying? And then my daughter, she was a good swimmer, but still it's like, oh, oh, I got two kids here. I gotta count for. And I am not on like, I'm not in control of the water right now. And so we started drifting, getting pulled out to sea a little bit. And then so I was like, ah, let's just go. And I started to feel the control leaving my body. So I was like, hey, I got my son, put him kind of on my back, which I shouldn't have done really, because he was good to go with a snorkel and then, and then, yeah.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  So I started to get kind of tired going in, making no ground. This was a few years, this was like years ago. Then, um, so finally at, at some point I look at the lifeguard, he's still, he's there looking at me the whole time like, like, are we good? Like, you know, can I grab you guys now? Kind of a thing. And then, um, I was like, hey, yeah, come kind of guy. So he just grabbed the kids and I just swam next to him. Like to go, you know, whatever. So it's

• 32:56Jocko Willink?

  What'd you say to him when you got to the beach? Thanks?

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks. Whatever. Talked to him for a little bit.

• 33:00Jocko Willink?

  Did he, did he scold you at all in any way?

• 33:03Speaker 01

  No, uh, he should, he maybe. I think he was well beyond that. He knew what was going on from the beginning.

• 33:11Jocko Willink?

  The lesson was learned. He was like, all right, dude, I don't got nothing to say.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Exactly right. Even me saying it's okay. Like he, you know, if I put myself in his shoes and I see a guy with two kids, like, um, I, in fact, what he should have done has been like, you know, like I understand, but I'm not going to let you guys go. Sorry. He should have done that. And I probably would have been like, all right, respect. I couldn't have. He was a young guy too. He was like 19 year old guy. So maybe he wanted to scold me, but didn't, whatever.

• 33:37Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  But yes, I should have got scolded. Um, and that was a lesson learned 100%. But yes.

• 33:42Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  You know, I'm trying to be brave in what I'm in because I don't see the danger.

• 33:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna say you didn't see the danger.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  I've done it a million times.

• 33:50Jocko Willink?

  That falls right into this next, uh, maxim here. It is difficult to assess great dangers. Experience is not enough. One would need memory. So there's a difference between memory and experience. So to this one, right? You had experience, right? Experience in that beach, you learned swim on that beach when you were two years old. But all of a sudden it's like, you don't, you don't have a memory of being sucked out against your will. And so you had experience, but you didn't have memory. So it was very difficult for you to assess. What was about to happen? The great danger that you were facing. Now the lifeguard, he's, he has memory. He's watched this happen. He remembers exactly, oh, I saw a guy with one kid and he got sucked out and I see you're doing the exact same thing. Cool.

• 34:33Jocko Willink?

  Watch this. Yep. I'll be right here. Let me know and I can save you and your children from drowning.

• 34:41Jocko Willink?

  Next one. One must never confirm through words the danger one imagines.

• 34:50Jocko Willink?

  Some circumstances in war are so harsh that one has the right to find them so, but the duty to remain silent. Morale is a form of lying.

• 35:05Jocko Willink?

  This is a, uh, something that I

• 35:09Jocko Willink?

  cannot agree with more, especially in terms of confirming through words, the danger one imagines. Or even in some cases like what you see. I am not real big on vocalizing something that's not good. You know what I'm saying? Like, uh, you know, have you ever seen the movie Aliens?

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Aliens, of course. Yes, sir. I have seen Aliens.

• 35:34Jocko Willink?

  The guy who recently died, that's kind of panicking.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Who's that? Paxton?

• 35:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Paxton, right? 15 minute, 15 days. We're gonna make it 15. Like that attitude. Don't like that attitude. Hey, we all kind of see it. Be quiet. Deal with it. Just deal with it yourself. When you, when you verbalize it, I feel like you're giving it traction, right? You're giving it traction.

• 36:02Jocko Willink?

  One must distinguish between the danger itself and the imagination of it. Men of average courage always exaggerate great dangers.

• 36:11Jocko Willink?

  You know, the, the idea too of like, he says morale is a form of lying. This is going back to the last one. Morale is a form of lying, but and I, I agree, but it's almost like lying through omission. You know that term?

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 36:24Jocko Willink?

  Whereas in, in lying is such a strong word. And you know, I always like, do not lie to your people, right? But maybe putting the most positive spin on a certain situation, when the morale of the troops is counting on you as the leader to get them through a very challenging thing. Is you have to do that. And again, to me, it's not lying. Like if we're gonna die. If we're gonna die. And I go, and we're gonna be okay. That's lying. But if we're in a really bad spot and we're gonna need to work, do these things to make it, to make it out of this spot. And I say, okay, brace yourself. We're gonna stand by. We're gonna get some right now. Like that.

• 37:10Jocko Willink?

  Um, I might be de, de-emphasizing the amount of danger. But I wouldn't consider that lying. I'd say looking, I'd say it's looking at it with a positive outlook.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And there, there's a very, I, I probably think if I already, you know, nerd out about it, I'm sure there's an actual technical difference between, you know, putting a positive spin on it or something like this, because when you think of something as a good situation or bad situation. Let's face it, on a technical level, that's a matter of opinion. Good, bad, whatever, you know? It's so it's like, hey, are we gonna die under, there's, there's not that many circumstances where you're guaranteed gonna die, guaranteed. Under zero conceivable, imaginable circumstances, could you live under zero? Right? There's, there's very few.

• 37:54Jocko Willink?

  So you're saying there's a chance?

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Exactly right. Exactly.

• 37:56Jocko Willink?

  Let's focus on the chance.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Exactly right. That's, that's kind of the, the distinction, you know? But lying by omission or something like this is, hey, you're asked a direct question and you both kind, as much as you possibly can, understand what answer we're looking for. We're looking for like a yes or a no or a yes, but this very specific thing, you know, kind of a thing. And then you omit very relevant elements of the answer that are kind of required for the full answer and you know it.

• 38:24Jocko Willink?

  And, and also there's, um, you have to be careful because if you think, you know, we're in some terrible situation and I look at you and like, go, hey, Echo, we're good to go. Like if you're doing that kind of lying, that's not, I'm losing credibility with the troops. But for me to be like, hey, listen, it's gonna suck for the next 15 minutes. We gotta push through. We're gonna get this flank going. Like whatever. That's okay.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like if, if, if, let's say the bad guys are coming, but they're coming at noon and it's nine, right? And they're coming at noon, they're coming and they're like, and you're in a bad spot or whatever. And they're like, hey, are they coming? And you'd be like, oh, well, technically right now they're not coming. So you say, no, that's lying by omission. They're like, no, they're coming.

• 39:04Jocko Willink?

  Not a good move.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  At noon, exactly right.

• 39:06Jocko Willink?

  Check. Next. Panic is the poisoning of the individual by sensitivity. Uh, we get a little hypersensitive about stuff. Causes panics.

• 39:20Jocko Willink?

  There are no dead or wounded in battle. Bullets kill four men and intimidate a thousand. Now I,

• 39:29Jocko Willink?

  I almost didn't read this one because I'm like, this does not make sense to me. The first part especially, there are no dead or wounded in battle. Like that makes no sense. But the second part makes sense. Bullets kill four men and intimidate a thousand. And when, what's really strange is when you look at the amount of men that are in combat and the amount of them that actually are wounded or killed. Generally speaking, it's a lot smaller of a ratio than people think. And yet, you know, people get killed. Everyone gets scared. Everyone gets nervous. Everyone gets intimidated. So that's an important thing to remember.

• 40:08Jocko Willink?

  Men who love adventure may expose themselves in ways that are blameworthy, but never in ways that are useless. Danger tempers the soul and alone makes the man of war.

• 40:22Jocko Willink?

  Check. Even the man of war dozes off in the second line. Hence me and Dave Burke asleep on the rooftop of Cop Falcon as soon as the morning broke and security was set. Second morning, I'll sleep.

• 40:38Jocko Willink?

  What is the true, what is the true, what is true of audacity in war is true everywhere. All that matters is daring. The world belongs to the brazen.

• 40:53Jocko Willink?

  So getting after it, stepping up, taking risks. It's not just true in war. It's true in life. The world belongs to the brazen. Danger creates genius.

• 41:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. When you gotta figure some shit out.

• 41:11Jocko Willink?

  In the thick of action, prudence follows courage like a shadow.

• 41:20Jocko Willink?

  Intrepidity without prudence becomes recklessness. And we kind of already talked about that a little bit. If you are going to be courageous, but you actually no longer are being cautious at all, all of a sudden it becomes recklessness. So we do not want recklessness happening.

• 41:37Jocko Willink?

  In routs, minds seem struck by madness. This is like when you're getting your ass kicked. Is the footnote was the most defensible positions are in routs abandoned without a fight. Stallwart officers suggest blowing up the cannons. The cannons leave without their ammunition. So it just saying when you're getting your ass kicked, everything just falls apart.

• 42:01Jocko Willink?

  The enemy's mistaken blows bring a smile. Fair enough. At the start of wars, one feels bound by honor to take risks that a few days later, one would avoid. Yep. That those, that little indoctrination period, feeling like you feeling froggy, you know? It's funny, we in Task Unit B, we talked about like the first, you know, month where they're everywhere. Everyone wants to go on every mission. And then, you know, you fast forward three months. It's like, hey, what, what, what's this mission for? You know what I mean? Cause guys are like, hold on a second, bro. What are we doing? Like in the beginning, guys didn't give a shit. We're going. And then in the middle, it's like, hey, why, why are we doing this? What's, what's this about? You know, they wanted to know. Good on them.

• 42:45Jocko Willink?

  Once courage is assured, prudence becomes a virtue. So now you know someone, you got someone that's courageous, right? Cool. Now their, their prudence, their caution, them being cautious is now a virtue. If they're a coward, you know, we, we, we don't need to see any prudence from them.

• 43:04Jocko Willink?

  We need to see some freaking courage.

• 43:08Jocko Willink?

  Bold strokes must be brief. Ain't that the truth? If you're trying to do something that's gonna be like taxing and it's bold, it better be over pretty quick.

• 43:21Jocko Willink?

  Boasting is no flower of the battlefield. Hmm. Interesting footnote. Very important footnote here. Boasting is born of an incomplete sense of duty and responsibility. This is when you get the person that's insecure about the way they performed or what they've done. And now what do they do? They brag. To try and make up for it.

• 43:46Jocko Willink?

  The natural leader is the bravest of all. At the onset of war, when everyone is new, subordinates may look down on him. The leader's worth is unknown. His experience presumed nil. The tone changes after a few days. Leaders must earn their stripes before their men. Yeah.

• 44:10Jocko Willink?

  Men must consecrate their leaders in their hearts. Yep. So when the team doesn't actually believe you are the leader, you're not the leader. You can say some orders and stuff and they might, may or may not do them, but they have to believe you have to prove to them that you are worthy of being in this position. And you don't do that by barking orders. You don't do that by being a tyrant. You do that by listening to what they have to say, making good decisions. That's what you do.

• 44:37Jocko Willink?

  A leader who is not exalted by the brave men he commands belongs in the rear. Can you imagine the, the leadership anecdotes this dude saw in four years of World War One? Like he, he's thinking of actual people. You know what I mean?

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, uh, what'd you just, the leader who, um, who will give orders, but you're not really following them, you know? That one's obviously, I was in the military, you know this about me, but I was a valet once.

• 45:15Jocko Willink?

  Comparable. Okay. Hey, we're in the game.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Actually, more specifically, I worked.

• 45:19Jocko Willink?

  We haven't explored your valet, like I remember a couple of incidents about it, but I don't remember it. You know, we need to explore your valet.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, maybe, maybe not at this time, but you know.

• 45:30Jocko Willink?

  Do a podcast about it.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So.

• 45:34Jocko Willink?

  So tell us what went down.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  What's small context.

• 45:35Jocko Willink?

  There you were.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  There. So Aloha Tower, right? In Honolulu. South side. Um, Aloha Tower has a, has a parking, parking scenario. So the parking, we'll say a lot, I guess. But anyway, the whole parking, um, system, that's what I worked for. So there's different positions and I moved up to valet. That's where the big bucks was.

• 45:56Jocko Willink?

  What's below, what's below valet?

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Um, more so than it was necessarily below it. This is what I did before that. Maybe it was below. That's where I started is a cashier. You know, the, you know, like the old school, um, parking lots. Now there's just a gate and a ticket and it's automatic, you know? Back in those days.

• 46:12Jocko Willink?

  Six dollars, please.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was exactly right. The cashier collecting the money and all that. So you're that.

• 46:17Jocko Willink?

  Did you have to wear a uniform?

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:19Jocko Willink?

  What, what was it like?

• 46:20Speaker 01

  Well, just typical Aloha shirt, some shorts.

• 46:22Jocko Willink?

  It's like you're a little touristy situation.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Well, Aloha shirt in Hawaii is, is the uniform. That's when you want to dress up a little bit.

• 46:30Jocko Willink?

  It's a tourist spot. Your parking cars for?

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Everybody.

• 46:34Jocko Willink?

  Okay, cool. Yeah, I retract my statement.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  No, no, it's.

• 46:37Jocko Willink?

  I thought they were dressing you up like with like, you were dressed up like Moana.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Well, actually you're not wrong with that. Like what you're kind of imagining. Yeah, yeah. But that's keep in mind.

• 46:48Jocko Willink?

  That's how.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  That, that's how even if you're not, you know, like if you go to like a nice place, like it's the dress up. Aloha shirt, you know? Um, so yeah, that was just the uniform, yeah, Aloha shirt. So anyway, uh, I was valet and I had a boss that nobody liked them. Nobody. It was annoying, way overweight, like someone who you look at just and listen to it, you just don't look up to this guy at all. Meanwhile, I'm just finished football. I'm fully, you know, running valet, you know, running, getting cars.

• 47:18Jocko Willink?

  That solid body habit.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Habit is was, it was pretty strong, you know? And my immediate supervisor, Kipo, shout out chiropractor in Kauai right now. Uh, he, he was the opposite. He was fucking awesome. He actually taught me some, some, uh, some really cool stuff. Like to influence like the people, you know? Anyway, he was, he was super, um, good. But the main boss, boss, nobody liked this guy. And I remember he would be like, hey, he'd kind of give us some orders and it was that exact same dynamic. Cause you're talking about where it's like, bro, like you happen to say it out of your mouth and we understand that that's true down here, you know? So yeah, this XYZ needs to be done, which we probably what I came up with anyway, but whatever.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  So yeah, technically you said it, but bro, we're not listening to that guy, you know? And then if he says for us to do some other stuff or whatever, we'll either slow roll it or straight up just not do it. See what I'm saying? But we're gonna listen to Kipo. See what I'm saying?

• 48:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  So yeah, bro, that's, that's real. And you drop on your experience when you say this guy is talking about actual people. Oh yeah. Freaking, that is actual people.

• 48:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And there's, you know, there's like a primal order, what I call the primal order of just like, there's a pecking order. You know, it's a real thing and it's, it's, it's underneath the on paper chain of command that exists. And it can be overridden by the paper chain of command, but the paper chain of command can also be overridden by the primal order.

• 48:47Jocko Willink?

  The leader's bravery multiplies the value of the troop. It guarantees his control and the sound use of his men. Boom. Each soldier, each officer is worth four under a fervent commander. Solid four X that you're gonna get from a badass. I was talking to some, uh, frogmen the other night. And one of, one of these, you know, one of these dudes is like a totally, um, uh, awesome, you know, reputation. Many, many decades in the SEAL teams. And he was just like, you know, I want a freaking commander that's gonna be able to kick ass. You know, you're like, yep. Everybody feels that way.

• 49:32Jocko Willink?

  A body without a soul, a troop without a leader always needs a rest. No soul, no leader. We guess what you want to do? Sleep.

• 49:44Jocko Willink?

  Inflame your men with passion. They will never ask for rest.

• 49:50Jocko Willink?

  No unit ever grumbles against honor. I wouldn't throw ever on that. You know what I mean? You can have units go sideways. Like they don't care about their honor. We don't give a shit. You know what I mean? That shit happens. Shouldn't happen, but it does, especially bad leadership.

• 50:07Jocko Willink?

  The noble soul wants more than to obey. It wants to exalt the one who leads it. Yeah. Yeah, they want, actually want to do a really good job. It's always strange. Some people like they get a little bit uneasy when it's like, make your boss look good.

• 50:25Jocko Willink?

  Make your boss look good. Some people don't like that. It's subservient, right? Boy, it's a good move. It's a good move. Why? Well, your boss has got the mission. We're all trying to accomplish the mission. You make your, you do the mission well. You make your boss look good. It's, it's all positive.

• 50:41Jocko Willink?

  Put that in your little, put that in your little, uh, little thought process.

• 50:47Jocko Willink?

  In great action where men's get, where men give their all, supplies may run dry. Passion sustains.

• 50:55Jocko Willink?

  There are always challenges when a leader takes a new command. Cool. That's a good thing to know. But oh, you're gonna, you're taking over something? Cool. It's gonna be, there's gonna be problems. There's gonna be issues. There's gonna be challenges. No big deal. Just work through them.

• 51:07Jocko Willink?

  It is less hard to obey than to decide. Yeah. That's, that's always true.

• 51:15Jocko Willink?

  It's easier to obey than imagine is a little alternate take in the footnotes.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that decide one's a day to day. Significant thing.

• 51:26Jocko Willink?

  You know what's interesting is there are some people that, for instance, working out, that just, they just want to get told what to do. They just want to get told, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And there's people like that with their finances. There's people like that with their diet. There's people like that with, with everything. Like, just tell me what to do. And so sometimes I find people that are having a hard time because they're trying to, uh, not only imagine a program and create a program, but it's like they're, they're the ones that are formulating their own suffering and it's harder to formulate your own suffering. Yeah. For some people.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:10Jocko Willink?

  You know, there was a, there was a, in, in the SEAL teams, sometimes various teams, depending on the way that they're set up, and this has changed throughout the years. Sometimes there's an emphasis on the platoon training itself. And sometimes there's an emphasis on an external force training the platoon. And generally speaking, what I always saw was that sure, dude, if you've got a good platoon chief, the platoon training itself will be awesome.

• 52:44Jocko Willink?

  If you got a decent platoon chief or an okay platoon chief, now we're trying to write a program for our own suffering. And sometimes people have a hard time doing that. And by the way, also having externalized look at you, you know, when you critique yourself, maybe you're not quite as honest as you should be.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:02Jocko Willink?

  So sometimes if you're having trouble with something, like let's say you're having trouble with your diet or you're having trouble with, uh, your, your workout program. Sometimes it's like, you know, get someone to give you the assignment and do what they tell you to do. Take the decide out of it and just obey.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  It's real and you're, I believe that you're a hundred percent correct, a hundred, 10% correct.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  About this applies to everything. Cause even like down to the daily nightly, hey, what do you want for dinner? And it's like, I don't know, whatever you want kind of thing, even though you know what you don't want for, you know, kind of a thing. It's like, you know, or, um, even like with work, you know, like some people, they'd way rather, you know, you tell them, hey, you be a, start a business, you be the business owner. They'd be like, no, like, no, no, no. Yeah, but you tell me what to do. They go hard. See what I'm saying?

• 53:56Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And there's, you know, it's funny because sometimes people get the, sometimes people impose their own kind of framework on everyone else. Like I can't believe this person doesn't want to, you know, run this department. It's like, no, no, that's totally normal that there's a person that just wants to be told, hey, here's what you gotta do. Make it happen.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:14Jocko Willink?

  It's fine. Don't be mad about that. And there's also people that would be better off doing that. And there's other people that would be better off stepping up. Like some people have a much easier time being the person that makes decisions. And some people have a much easier time being a follower. And there's nothing wrong. That's just kind of a natural thing. And sometimes people grow into it. Sometimes people grow out of, you know, out of this wanting to lead, you know, where they're like, I, I have friends that were like, yeah, I made, I took a crack at it, bro. You know, what are you doing now? They're like, oh, I'm working at this such and such corporation. Oh, I thought you were doing this, bro. You know, like it's a lot. It's a lot when you, when you, when you're making all the decisions. It's a lot of pressure.

• 54:58Jocko Willink?

  I mean, not to mention just the 24 hour, like something goes wrong, they're calling you.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  I, I think, and even though all those things feel like they're part of it, I feel like the underlying fundamental reason is because it's way more, way more mental energy. So like the, um, bro, I, this is gonna, this is an odd example, but it's so clear. So when we're young, we first got our driver's license, right? You know, when you get your driver's license in Kauai, it's 15. At 15 years old, you can get your driver's. So I had this friend named Byron, he's a pilot, by the way, now for the army. He flies helicopters, if I'm not mistaken. Um, he was, he was like, you know, my friend at that time. So he, uh, he got his driver's license, his birthday, cause his birthday was in January, you know, he's one of the first guys to get his driver's license. I'm like, cool. He got his driver's license and he had a car.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  So we'd be like on quiet, shoot, we'd all jump in the car. It's like, yeah, let's go cruise around, right? But he would always be like, hey, so where do you guys want to go? And we're like, I don't know. You're the driver. Like you go, and he, and, but he kept asking like, I don't know where to go. Like, I'm like, and you kind of think like, well, I don't get, like you're the driver. I thought we're going somewhere. Every single time in my life, besides tonight, I jump in the car. The driver knows where we're going. See what I'm saying? But he's like, where do you guys want to go? Where do you guys want? We're like, oh, I don't know. Where do you, you know, kind of a thing. We can literally go anywhere for the first time in our life, by the way. That we want to go to, we go anywhere on Kauai. We don't know where we want to go. So much mental energy, bro. And I remember thinking, why don't we know where we want to go? And everyone's looking to everyone else.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Driver and non-drivers, by the way, to go somewhere, to make the decision to go somewhere. And then ironically, I guess you could say, no matter where he would have said that we were going, I would have been a hundred percent down to go. See what I'm saying? And I think vice versa. So it's like, I think that's natural. I think that's a natural thing to, to like conserve that mental energy unless you're doing it for a purpose.

• 56:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And I think that's also that there's people falling into different categories and also different categories, even within different arenas as an individual. Like sometimes, you know, if we're doing this type of evolution, like I, I will step up and run it, but if it's this type of evolution, I'm like, oh, cool. I'm setting back. Right? So that's totally normal. Like your kids, you probably have your kids, one of your kids, when you're doing some certain thing, they, they step up and they're like, oh, I'm doing, you know, I'm, let me blah, blah, blah, blah. They're, they're leading. And then some other evolution, they're like letting the sibling leader, letting you lead. So there's, but it's just, it's just important to understand people's nature. And don't try and fight their nature too much, you know? Don't try and swim upstream. And some of this has to do also with this next maxim, which is

• 57:40Jocko Willink?

  subordinates are unaware of the burdens their leadership bear. Their leaders bear. They do not take them into account. This is like, you know, the guy that's like, well, I could do a much better job than this guy. Okay, cool. You run the next mission. Total disaster. Hey, boss, I'm good. I'm, I'm sorry, you know? So people don't realize the weight, the strain, and they're not supposed to, and you shouldn't as a leader transferred onto the troops. But don't be surprised when they think, man, I could do a better job than Echo at this. Like I watched one of your videos. I'm like, dude, I'll freaking, I think I could do a better job editing that. And then I try and open up the editing program and I'm like, all right, we'll just leave that shit to Echo Charles.

• 58:22Jocko Willink?

  Troops are not always ready to strive. A junior officer can draw more than his due from his men, but it takes tact. And this little note here is you can ask anything of a troop if the reason is sound. So they'll get it done, but you have to have a reason.

• 58:38Jocko Willink?

  Discipline permits a leader to question the orders he receives. That's an interesting one. This is coming from World War One. Discipline permits a leader to question the orders he receives. You get some weird orders, like, no, this doesn't make sense.

• 58:55Jocko Willink?

  And then it continues, but when the order is harsh, delaying obedience saps command. So if you get like the, hey, we need to go now, you might want to just go now and not question the order, unless it's just freaking suicide.

• 59:10Jocko Willink?

  Only heroes have the right to question hard orders because in doing so, they do not underman the spirit of command. And he's got something, okay, I'm going to be with Echo Charles on this and disagree with Renee. A junior officer can do nothing against ill-fated orders, which I totally disagree with. If you have ill-fated orders, it is your duty to stand up and push back against them. And if they are so ill-fated, then it's your duty to not do them. Now, uh, to, to bring up what a, just the perfect examples of this is the movie, the, the show Band of Brothers and the, they do a recon, the end of the war, the war's going to end in a couple of days.

• 59:55Jocko Willink?

  They do a recon across the river. A guy gets wounded. I forget if a guy gets wounded, maybe a guy gets killed. They come back. The next night they get orders to do another recon. And Major Winters is like, mm, we don't think we should do it. Nope. You're doing it. Well, I really don't think we should do it. Nope. You're doing it. Roger that. They went and sat and drank wine in one of the buildings and didn't do the recon. So are there times where that's the right move? Hell yeah. Cause if he would have said, we, I refuse to do this. Guess what? Okay. You're fired. Next guy. Take them. Tell me what you see. Do the recon. So you gotta be careful of that.

• 1:00:32Jocko Willink?

  Fighters do not take well to criticism from those who do not fight.

• 1:00:40Jocko Willink?

  Yep. War is learned only in combat. Without courage, there is no experience.

• 1:00:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's one of those unfortunate things. You gotta actually do the thing and, and you can get close. Like the proximity to an MMA, a professional MMA fight, you can get really close, really close.

• 1:01:06Jocko Willink?

  You can do all the sparring, all the grappling, all the wrestling. You can put it, you can get the fake crowd in here. Hey, Friday night fights, everyone's gonna watch, you know, Echo fight and he's, we're gonna do the full three, five minute rounds and everyone's gonna yell and cheer. And we, that's like, we close proximity. But you still weren't in the cage at UFC, right? That's a different world. Same thing with combat. Like we train, we get as close as we possibly can. But there's an element that's not, that's just different. Like death is at stake.

• 1:01:38Jocko Willink?

  Knowing the enemy is the leader's first duty.

• 1:01:43Jocko Willink?

  Going back to Sun Tzu for that one. There are men for whom the law of war is never to expose themselves.

• 1:01:53Jocko Willink?

  There are leaders who dare remain in the rear and this may not hinder their advancement. This guy, you could tell he wa, he, he would walk by some dudes in the rear as he's going to the front for the ninth time.

• 1:02:08Jocko Willink?

  Observation is rarely what it ought to be in war.

• 1:02:12Jocko Willink?

  At entry, at every level, the leader delegates it to a subordinate so that the army's eyes fall to the lowest rank in the hierarchy. That's a very good point. You know, the Colonel is the, the, the, the brigade, the full bird Colonel is retiring, relying on the lieutenant Colonel to send out his captain, who's gonna send out his lieutenant, who's gonna send out his sergeant, who's gonna send out his private to go look and see what they're seeing. It's an interesting thing to think about.

• 1:02:45Jocko Willink?

  And not only that, then you have the, the, you know, mistakes that get made as the information gets passed back up. So.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  Do you think that that is, I mean, in principle?

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  And ideally because

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  in theory, everyone else has something better to do or should have something better to do?

• 1:03:07Jocko Willink?

  You know, I, I think it actually makes sense, right? It makes sense. Like, yeah, you're right. The Colonel does, the Colonel can't go and observe from nine different positions on the battlefield. He's gotta have the battalion commander, send his company, who's gonna send his platoon, who's gonna send his sergeant. Like it, it makes sense. And you know what? The private is trained to do that. He knows what he's looking for. He's out there on the battlefield. So it, it makes sense, but it's something to be aware of. It's something to remember. When you're a Colonel, it's going through a lot of layers to get this information back to you. And there are times a private doesn't have the experience, doesn't have the strategic experience, obviously, or the tactical experience that a, that a Colonel

• 1:03:48Jocko Willink?

  or lieutenant Colonel or a major is gonna have, or a captain. So are we making sure that we're getting the right information from the eyes? Which are the most junior people out there and the most inexperienced in some cases.

• 1:04:04Jocko Willink?

  The most delicate organs of the body are the eyes and yet they are the most exposed.

• 1:04:11Jocko Willink?

  In war, oh, and then it also, this was just, this is like his biology, you know? Background, perhaps it is not without reason that nature placed the eyes at the head. That's, that was a little bit of a, of an additional statement around the leader delegating the eyes to the, the outer limbs. You know, imagine if your eyes were in your fingertips.

• 1:04:38Jocko Willink?

  In war, too often, those who see do not command and those who command do not see.

• 1:04:47Jocko Willink?

  Since those who see do not command, they sometimes lose interest in looking.

• 1:04:59Jocko Willink?

  The voice of leaders without courage falters when they speak to the brave.

• 1:05:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Those are the facts right there. The most subtle of cowardly leaders do nothing but sneer around the brave. Only the brave know how to speak to the brave.

• 1:05:22Jocko Willink?

  This is like so important that you remember these things.

• 1:05:28Jocko Willink?

  And how, how just transparent it is when you get the documented coward coming in. Putting out word. It's like, dude, we all know.

• 1:05:40Jocko Willink?

  There are moments when the life of a leader matters more than that of half his men. You know, that's unfortunate. That's not a good thing. It's not even a positive reflection on the leader, other than to say, obviously, he's a very inspirational individual, but he's done a really bad job of decentralized command. And training his subordinate leaders to step up if something happens to him.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  So you're saying that's a bad thing?

• 1:06:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. It's a bad, it sounds cool. Like, oh, you know, if Echo gets killed, it's, you know, it's like, that's worth half of his men, but that's actually, it sounds like Echo's this great leader.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Right. So valuable.

• 1:06:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're so valuable, but no, you've done a terrible job. You have, you have no, um, follow on plan if something happens to you. So this is bad.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you failed to build a, a good, strong organization as a whole kind of a team.

• 1:06:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. If you can't, if you disappear and everything falls apart, that's, that's not good. You've done a bad job as a leader.

• 1:06:44Jocko Willink?

  One has the right to break in war only to maneuver. You must be certain of your genius to consent to a retreat. Again, he carves out little things for Napoleon. But if you think the only reason you can break contact in war is just to maneuver, it's a very, it's a very aggressive attitude.

• 1:07:07Jocko Willink?

  It is in the infantrymen that the heart of the fatherland beats.

• 1:07:15Jocko Willink?

  In extreme fatigue, be temperate. Honor is at stake. I have seen staffs drunk from four fingers of wine after three sleepless nights. This is just like, uh, this is not a maxim, a philosophical maxim, right? This is just advice to a brother. If you haven't slept in a while, don't drink, cause you're gonna act like a jackass. Think about this guy and all he's been through in his life and he had to throw this maxim in there. You know what I mean? That's, you know, he's seen some jackassery.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Advice to a brother.

• 1:07:47Jocko Willink?

  Once danger has passed, feed your men. The stomach cries out when the mind comes to rest. The animal that digests is no longer fit for combat. Beware the staffs that eat too well.

• 1:08:02Jocko Willink?

  Without fasting, there is no asceticism. In battle, the spirit is elevated through hardship. A man who is full has no passion left.

• 1:08:15Jocko Willink?

  So this little footnote here, fasting was invented by the orders to elevate the spirit. The orders being like the religious, like monasteries, right? Like just you wanna, you wanna elevate your spirit? Don't eat.

• 1:08:31Jocko Willink?

  I agree with that, actually.

• 1:08:35Jocko Willink?

  On the line of fire, discipline no longer exists. Only mutual consent. Discipline resumes in the rear. When I read that, I was like, wait a second. No, we need to have extreme discipline once we're on the front lines. But what he's saying is it's not here anymore because what is here is like self-discipline. And you're gonna do your job and I'm gonna do my job. This is mutual consent. Cause we're, if we don't do our jobs, we're gonna die. It's mutual consent that we're making this happen. You're not, you're not going, hey, Jocko, do this. I need to do it. Otherwise we die. It's mutual consent. I want you to lead me. I want that. I want you to tell me what to do.

• 1:09:19Jocko Willink?

  And then the last one from this first section of this book.

• 1:09:23Jocko Willink?

  In a dangerous area, do not seek shelter. Pass through.

• 1:09:31Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go.

• 1:09:35Jocko Willink?

  It's, again, if you keep that little, keep that little thought in the back of your mind, do not seek shelter, keep going, like that's a... There's always times where we wanna hunker down, right? Take a little breather, take a knee, as we used to say in the military. That definitely happens. But man, when you're in a dangerous situation, that is not the time. When you're doing jujitsu and you get caught in a bad position, that's not the time to rest. Get out and scramble. Get out of there, pass through that, move. Don't let the discomfort trap you. That's not what we're doing. Do not seek, seek shelter when things get aggro, move.

• 1:10:16Jocko Willink?

  So, like I said, we covered the first third of this book. The second two thirds of this book, they are working through the notes that he left after he died, because as he was writing this book, July 9th, 1925, he, he died and he left his notes. On his deathbed, he put his uniform back on

• 1:10:38Jocko Willink?

  and told his old comrades that he identified only as a soldier, which is why he insisted to die in his soldier's uniform. In 1931, because this guy was highly decorated. In 1931, they built a statue of him in the town of his birth as a memorial and a commemoration of this individual and his heroic acts, repeated heroic acts throughout the world, First World War. And then when the Nazis came in and occupied the town in 1941, they tore down the statue, they melted it. So now, it's only the base that is there. Kind of a, kind of horrible to think that

• 1:11:20Jocko Willink?

  they build a statue to, you know, immortalize someone's memory and the Nazis roll in and just tear it down and melt it. But, all that remains now is just the, the base of that statue and of course, these words, these maxims, so that his lessons

• 1:11:39Jocko Willink?

  can be passed on. And at least considered. We don't have to believe them all, but we at least have to consider them. And of course, one thing that we, one thing that we have definitely learned is we have to do hard things in order to preserve our soul.

• 1:11:58Jocko Willink?

  Right? And what does that mean? Means we gotta get after it, we, means we gotta shoot, we gotta run, we gotta sprint, we gotta lift, we gotta fight, we gotta swim, surf. And if we're doing that, guess what? We need fuel. We highly recommend you check out Jocko Fuel. You need to replace the protein in your body so that you can build stronger bodies. So we have a plethora of protein flavors for you. We have ready to drink, we have powder. We also have incredible supplements, we have greens, we have hydration, we have hydration ready to drink, we have hydration sticks, we have energy, we have a pro line, we have a savage pre-workout. And I don't use pre-workout a lot. I use a pre-workout when I need it. I don't need it very often.

• 1:12:41Jocko Willink?

  But sometimes, three, four hours of sleep, for whatever reason, travel, whatever like this, occasionally I can, I have some work to do in the morning, or I travel in the morning and I'm working out in the, like, mid-afternoon. You ever get that 1400, two o'clock to the U civilians?

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  What about it?

• 1:12:57Jocko Willink?

  Start feeling a little bit of a fade?

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, yeah, from time to time.

• 1:13:00Jocko Willink?

  Little bit of a fade?

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  But I work out at that time a lot.

• 1:13:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  So, I don't know.

• 1:13:04Jocko Willink?

  For you, no factor.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  No factor.

• 1:13:06Jocko Willink?

  You're just stepping it up. Well, for me, there's a reason why I'm not working out at that time, because other things kind of got discombobulated in the schedule.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Right, right, and your, uh, we'll call it typical workout time. Uh, also, your wake-up time is a lot earlier than mine.

• 1:13:21Jocko Willink?

  Earlier than yours. So, occasionally, pre-workout. We got it all. So, we got what you need to fuel your efforts, fuel your mission. Check out JacoFuel.com, or go to whatever store you go to. I don't know what store you go to, but there is a high likelihood that at that store, you can get Jocko Fuel. And if they don't have Jocko Fuel, ask for Jocko Fuel and we'll get it out to you. In the meantime, JacoFuel.com, that's what we got. Also, OriginUSA.com. We are making clothing here in America. We are making jeans, boots, hoodies, t-shirts, boots, socks, belts, little wallets, hats.

• 1:14:04Jocko Willink?

  We're making everything, 100% made in America, because we do not support slavery. We don't support the destruction of the environment. And in order to not support the destruction of the environment,

• 1:14:18Jocko Willink?

  we make our stuff here in America. In America, we don't allow a factory to take all of its chemicals and dump the waste into the river. So the river dies. We don't allow that here. It used to happen here, it doesn't happen anymore, we have laws against it. We don't want to support slavery.

• 1:14:41Jocko Willink?

  Slavery is bad. And what is slavery technically? The person is owned. Well, maybe certain cases, this isn't technically slavery that's taking place, but if you see the way these people, these human beings are being treated, it's borderline.

• 1:14:58Jocko Willink?

  So we don't do any of that. We support freedom, we support America. We support American manufacturing. So go to OriginUSA.com and get some gear that is built by freedom.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  Best jeans in existence, by the way.

• 1:15:15Jocko Willink?

  100%.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Also, just heads up, for people who are familiar with Jocko Store, we're gonna have what, what we call it drop. So, you know what a drop is?

• 1:15:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Come on, man. Drop culture!

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure, well, we're not enmeshed in drop culture.

• 1:15:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Well, maybe, maybe a little bit. Hey, maybe we, we drop.

• 1:15:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay, what are we dropping?

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  We're dropping a new shirt that was part of the Shirt Locker. I guess technically still is, it's like one of the original designs that everyone wanted.

• 1:15:45Jocko Willink?

  Which one?

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  All your excuses are lies. But there's more to it than that. You gotta see what the shirt looks like and you'd be like, okay, I get it now. Anyway, uh, it, it's probably dropped at this point, but if it's not, boom, spoiler alert, spoiler alert. So if it's not, um, what you do, you sign up for the email list, you'll get an email that tells you when it's dropped, so you can get the jump on it. Trust me, they do, they, they sell out. I'm trying to work on next threading the needle and all that, you know? They sell out, just know that. So, if you go to JacoStore.com on the bottom, you can put your email in there, it'll let you know. I won't spam you, nothing like that, um, but it's a good shirt.

• 1:16:20Jocko Willink?

  All your excuses are lies.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:16:22Jocko Willink?

  That's the shirt.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right. Um, so yeah, and you know, if, if that's not the one for you, or even if it is the one for you, keep in mind, there's other stuff on there, discipline equals freedom, you know, good, many versions of that one, many versions of discipline equals freedom, many versions of, uh, standby to get some, you wanna represent that, that's a worthy one of representation, um, some other stuff on there as well. Some more of your kids' stuff on there, by the way. You got some kids and they're kind of in the game and on the path.

• 1:16:49Jocko Willink?

  Kids' stuff is cool.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:51Jocko Willink?

  It's a very cool combination of like kids' vibe and discipline.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So, oh yeah, if they're on the path and they wanna represent, they, there's some good stuff on there, uh, for them as well. It's all on JacoStore.com. Oh, also the Shirt Locker I mentioned, if you don't know what that is, which we do already, but if you don't, subscription, new design every month, seems to be good. You can click on there and see what it's all about. So you're not in the dark about it. Anyway, yeah, JacoStore.com.

• 1:17:16Jocko Willink?

  Check, we're there. Got, we got the books, so I've written a bunch of books about leadership, I've written a bunch of kids' books, check those out. Also, check out Put Your Legs On by Rob Jones, check out Need to Lead by Dave Burke, the book that I reviewed on the last two podcasts called Maxims on War by Renee Quentin. It is from Imperium Press, and you can check out ImperiumPress.org if you wanna order that thing.

• 1:17:41Jocko Willink?

  Also, we have a leadership consultancy called Echelon Front. If you need help inside your organization, you wanna send your leaders to learn how to lead, you can send them to one of our events, or we can come to you. Go to EchelonFront.com if that is what is needed. Also, check out ExtremeOwnership.com, we teach the skills of leadership in an online environment. We have courses to take online, we also have live sessions that we do weekly, so check out ExtremeOwnership.com. And if you wanna help out service members, active and retired, you wanna help their families, you wanna help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's Mom, Mama Lee. She's an amazing woman with an amazing charity organization. If you wanna donate or you wanna get involved, to go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org.

• 1:18:26Jocko Willink?

  Also, check out HeroesAndHorses.org, Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org, WarriorsInNeed.org, and StrongholdRescue.org. Bunch of great people doing great things. If you wanna connect with us, check out Jaco.com. And then, if you want to waste a big portion of your life, you can find us on social media. I'm at Jocko Willink, Echo's at Echo Charles. Just be careful, because the algorithm is evil and it will destroy you. Also, thanks to our military personnel, who are, as we speak, standing watch and protecting our freedom. We thank you for your service and your sacrifice. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers,

• 1:19:08Jocko Willink?

  correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. We are thankful for your service as well. And everyone else out there, I, I think it's a good idea to keep one of these maxims, a bunch of them, but I'm gonna call one out in particular. It is that our mind must distinguish between the danger itself and the imagination of it.

• 1:19:34Jocko Willink?

  One must distinguish between the danger itself and the imagination of it. What are you afraid of? That's what it's asking. What, what are you afraid of? What crazy thing are you imagining that might, could, possibly happen?

• 1:19:49Jocko Willink?

  That, that thought, that view, that exaggerated hypothesis that you have in your head that is preventing you from actually doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing?

• 1:20:02Jocko Willink?

  You have to push through that. Do not let your imagination of danger keep you out of the game. Instead, set those fears aside and go get after it. In fact, set those fears aside and go to war. That's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.