279. “He lost his $150k job, but I make every decision - can we fix this?”

Ramit unpacks how to manage money as a couple after a job loss and what happens when one partner carries most of the financial responsibility while the other starts stepping back. Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You to Be Rich talks with Isabelle and Ryan, 37 and 40, who have been married for 12 years and have a four-year-old daughter. After Ryan was laid off from his $150,000 software engineering job, Isabelle became the sole earner. They have around $1.2 million in assets and an $800,000 net worth, but two mortgages and fixed costs at 83% of their income have left them trying to figure out how to manage their money on one income. Their biggest challenge isn’t simply how to budget or save money. Isabelle manages most of their financial planning and decision-making, while Ryan struggles with money anxiety, guilt around spending, and feeling shut down when he tries to get involved. Ramit helps them understand how childhood scarcity shaped their relationship with money, how to communicate about finances without falling into a parent-child dynamic, and how reducing their fixed expenses could give them more freedom to actually enjoy the money they’ve built. In this episode, we uncover: How to manage money as a couple after a job loss How to budget on one income without letting financial anxiety take over Why Isabelle feels exhausted managing their financial future Why Ryan feels guilty spending money despite their $800K net worth How a $3,000 espresso machine exposes his money anxiety Why their fixed costs have reached 83% of their income How two mortgages are putting pressure on their monthly budget How childhood scarcity shaped their relationship with money Why their dynamic has started to feel like a parent-child relationship How clear money rules and lower fixed expenses could help them become a team Chapters: (00:00) Introduction (02:00) Why Isabelle feels responsible for their financial future (04:00) The purchase that exposes Ryan’s money anxiety (09:50) How losing his $150K job changed their roles (39:00) Ramit opens up their numbers (48:00) Why they’re paying two mortgages (01:04:00) How childhood scarcity shaped their money dynamic (01:23:00) The parent-child dynamic they’ve fallen into (01:38:00) Ryan and Isabelle make a new financial plan (02:07:00) Follow-ups 💡 RAMIT’S PODCAST NEWSLETTER • I share new ways to think about money every Saturday. Get the emails here: https://iwt.com/podcastnewsletter 🙌 GET HELP FROM RAMIT SETHI • Order my new book: Money for Couples: https://iwt.com/moneyforcouples • Take control of your money with the Conscious Spending Plan: https://iwt.com/csp • Optimize your credit cards with the 1st chapter of my book: https://iwt.com/chapter1-pod • Join my Rich Life: Road to $100K program: https://iwt.com/100k • Listen to my book — now on Audible: https://amzn.to/48zko28 🤳 CONNECT WITH RAMIT SETHI • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ramit/ • X: https://twitter.com/ramit ✅ SUBSCRIBE SO YOU DON’T MISS ANY EPISODES https://youtube.com/user/ramitsethi/featured/ This episode is brought to you by: ZocDoc | Taking care of your health just got easier – start here with Zocdoc: https://zocdoc.com/RAMIT #sponsored ElevenLabs | If you run a business or handle customer operations across support, sales, or marketing, start with a demo at https://elevenlabs.io/ramit Granola | Try Granola totally free at https://granola.ai/RAMIT. Leesa | Go to https://leesa.com for 25% off mattresses PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code RAMIT, exclusive for my listeners Facet | As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members, and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Offer has been extended to 12/31/2026. #FacetAd Connect with Ramit: Get my new book, Money For Couples Get Money Coaching with Ramit Download the Conscious Spending Plan Listen to my book—now on Audible Get my New York Times best-selling book Get my no-numbers journal Other episodes Instagram Twitter YouTube Apply to be coached for free on this podcast at https://iwt.com/apply

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  There's this real concern, if I die, he's SOL.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  I got laid off, then I kind of fell off and I'm just like, okay, I don't deserve anything.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  I'm the one that's making a lot of the decisions and that gets really tiring.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Every time I try to get more involved, I just feel like I'm shut down and I'm just belittled for it. So I just don't.

• 0:17Ramit Sethi?

  It seems like you want him to be involved, but when he tries to get involved, you don't approve of it.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  I think that sounds accurate.

• 0:23Ramit Sethi?

  You feel the need to control and direct his involvement with money.

• 0:28Speaker 00

  I mean, I do like being in control.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Maybe I have a bit of a phobia that I'll make the wrong decision because I feel like my decisions are judged quite frequently.

• 0:35Ramit Sethi?

  You have 83% fixed costs. You have no savings, no money for vacation. Your guilt free spending is getting chipped away.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:43Ramit Sethi?

  And if one of you loses your job again, we got problems.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Wait a minute.

• 0:49Ramit Sethi?

  In lots of relationships, one person ends up handling the money and we see it all the time on this podcast. One person, often the woman in a heterosexual relationship, pays the bills, makes the plans and thinks about the financial future. At first feels normal. It's even helpful, but here's the problem. The more one person takes over, the easier it is for the other person to step back and even stop trying. So eventually what you will find is one partner thinking, why am I the only one dealing with this? And the other's thinking, she's got it under control. She's so much better at this than I am. That is exactly what's happening with Isabel and Ryan. They're 37 and 40 years old.

• 1:31Ramit Sethi?

  They've been married for 12 years with a four-year-old daughter and Ryan lost his job six months ago. But it turns out their money problems started way before that. Isabel feels like she is carrying their whole financial future all by herself. Interestingly, Ryan says every time he tries to get involved, he feels judged or shut down. I want to know how they ended up stuck in these roles. Why did money become something stressful instead of something they do together? And ultimately, what is it going to take for them to start working as a team? Let's meet Isabel and Ryan.

• 2:06Ramit Sethi?

  Isabel, you wrote something on your application that caught my eye. You said, quote, "I'm exhausted being the only one actively thinking about and managing our financial future." Tell me more about that.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  I'm the one that's making a lot of the decisions, the day-to-day decisions, the big decisions, the long-term decisions, and that gets really tiring.

• 2:26Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 2:27Speaker 00

  But then the other thing is that I feel like we're, we've been and are in a little bit of a limbo because he's, you know, Ryan lost his job a while ago now. And I think that that's led to a lot of stress and anxiety about money, about finances, about we can or cannot spend on this, about trying to find work. And I've been doing a lot of future planning and a lot of thinking and there's this very real concern I have that if I die, he's SOL. Right? Like there's this notion that I've started thinking about like getting a will set up, getting like life insurance. I've been thinking about all of those things and that's made me realize that I think I'm holding up a lot of the financial structure in the household.

• 3:07Speaker 00

  I would like trying to move towards a place where I could know that if I were gone, I could trust him to continue that moving forward.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  I'm mostly here for her. I'm not going to lie about that.

• 3:19Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  I'm the classic money anxiety person. I would definitely like to find like a more of a comfort point, like she was saying. We do have conversations about money from time to time. I feel like sometimes it improves in the short term and then it kind of falls apart again.

• 3:32Ramit Sethi?

  What's it?

• 3:34Speaker 01

  The whole like aura or like teamwork or anything like that. One of the things that we kind of run into is the concept of spending makes me nervous, I guess. And I unconsciously, over the course of the next few weeks or so, kind of gradually fall off.

• 3:49Speaker 00

  I feel like we're not, we're doing okay. You know, I still feel like even on a single income, where, where we are, I think we're okay. And I think he's a lot of the times carrying a lot of stress and anxiety about small day-to-day spending that I think is trivial.

• 4:03Ramit Sethi?

  What, what's an example of something small that he focuses on?

• 4:07Speaker 00

  I, I, he just said, I knew that was going to come up because I told you it was going to come up. We were at a home goods store just last weekend. He went off to look at some things while I was with our daughter and he sent me a picture of two ice cream scoops.

• 4:21Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  One was $6, one was $14. I was with our daughter. I couldn't really think about it, focus on it. I was just like, just get whichever, just, just get whichever. Probably the one with the little swoopy handle that we like. And then I didn't really pay attention to it. He put one in the cart. When we get to the register, it was a $6 one. And I say, I think I said as we were paying, like, did you really get that one? Like, and I didn't see this until after he texted me when he was comparing the two, like, I feel poor. And then I was just, and I still sit and think to myself, like, we are not poor. It's, it's, I don't think about those things. I don't stress, I don't stress about that level of purchase and I feel like he does and it sounds, I don't know. It just feels like a very tiring way to live, but.

• 5:05Ramit Sethi?

  Ryan, what was going on when you were at the store looking at the scoops?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Well, I just feel like a lot of those little decisions add up. So when it's looking at like those smaller day-to-day things, I do feel like with my income gone, it was fairly large and sizable. Kind of just felt like maybe it's a better idea to spend a little less, $6 here, $6 there, over the course of like a week or months does add up.

• 5:27Ramit Sethi?

  When you both hear the description of what happened at the store with the ice cream scoops and you zoom out, what role is each of you playing in that dynamic?

• 5:39Speaker 01

  I'd say that she's kind of taking on almost a maternal role if I'm asking for permission, which she shouldn't be.

• 5:44Ramit Sethi?

  And what role are you taking on then?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Like a child.

• 5:48Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, parent-child dynamic. I think that's quite accurate.

• 5:50Speaker 00

  He was asking for permission and I, and I just like, I didn't care, to be honest. It was just.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  And you didn't care, so I went with the less valued one.

• 5:58Ramit Sethi?

  I'm not so sure I agree that you didn't care.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  You don't think so?

• 6:00Ramit Sethi?

  No, because what happened at the checkout?

• 6:03Speaker 00

  You're right. You're right.

• 6:04Ramit Sethi?

  What did you say?

• 6:05Speaker 00

  Did you really get that one? And it was very much a judgy tone. I don't feel like I need to give permission for those kinds of purchases. I kind of wish you just, and we've talked about this before, like, there's a lot of instances where he'll get the cheaper item. And, and I'll say like, why didn't you just get the nicer one that'll last longer or the, you know, that, that you actually wanted instead of the cheaper thing that will then either not be useful.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  I, I don't know.

• 6:33Ramit Sethi?

  Think about it.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  I feel like oftentimes I'm the decision maker in things and I feel like I'm the one who can make the informed decisions. Because I have a better understanding of where finances are. I just don't want to be making the informed decisions all the time.

• 6:50Ramit Sethi?

  I'm not interested in what you want and don't want. I'm only interested right now in what role were you playing?

• 6:56Speaker 00

  I mean, if we're following along with the same dynamic, I am the parent in that dynamic.

• 7:01Ramit Sethi?

  And you're.

• 7:01Speaker 00

  It's the same way that like my, my daughter might come up and say, can I get this or that? And I'm making that decision.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Well, I feel like there was a right decision, obviously. She got upset when I bought the cheaper ice cream scoop.

• 7:12Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, so she, the right decision.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  I was leaning towards the cheaper scoop, but I just asked her which one she wanted and she said she didn't care. So I bought the cheaper one because I felt more comfortable with it. And then she kind of lashed out about it.

• 7:21Ramit Sethi?

  Why'd you, why'd you even ask?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  I don't know. It's just.

• 7:25Ramit Sethi?

  Think about it.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Maybe I have a bit of a phobia that I'll make the wrong decision because I feel like I'm, my decisions are judged quite frequently.

• 7:34Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Money obviously makes both of you uncomfortable. Is that fair to say?

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:42Ramit Sethi?

  Ryan says yes. Isabel?

• 7:46Ramit Sethi?

  If not, feel free to disagree with me.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  I don't feel like it does.

• 7:49Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  It, it does come up enough. Like I know that one of the things that you talk about is guilt free spending. We've jokingly said that, or she's jokingly brought up that there's no such thing as guilt free spending.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  For him, for him specifically.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  If I buy myself something nice, I dwell on it and feel guilty about it for the rest of my life.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  Pretty much.

• 8:06Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Is it when you buy something nice, it's racked with guilt or is it when you buy anything?

• 8:11Speaker 01

  I'd say anything in the short term, but in the longer term, the larger purchases more so. Like I'm a huge, this is an example of a larger purchase. I'm a huge coffee person. I used to run a roastery and I bought a $3,000 espresso machine back when I was working and we could afford it. It wasn't a big deal, but I still feel like it was a silly thing for me to buy in terms of the cost and I feel guilty that I bought that.

• 8:33Ramit Sethi?

  How does guilt show up for you? Where do you feel it?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  And it's like a heavy feeling in the chest, I suppose, or sometimes I feel like maybe I'll misconstrue a comment or a little joke that she made. And this is where it gets really bad in terms of money and I'll feel like I'm being attacked and I'll shut down. She'll make a little comment about the cost of like my espresso machine and she's just like half joking and didn't really even give it any thought. And I'll feel like she's been dwelling on it for months or something and I'll just like either walk away or give like one word answers and just kind of shut down.

• 9:07Ramit Sethi?

  Do you remember what kind of joking comment you make?

• 9:11Speaker 00

  I don't know. I'm trying to think about when that might've been. I know we had a couple of friends over lately and I, I made some comment about the $3,000 espresso machine and a very fancy grinder and like, there's a lot.

• 9:22Ramit Sethi?

  What'd you say?

• 9:23Speaker 00

  I said something like, oh, I think we have about $5,000 worth of coffee equipment here.

• 9:28Ramit Sethi?

  And do you agree that when he purchased it, you both could afford it?

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Yes, I do think so.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  But then I got laid off, which is becoming more common in my field. And then I kind of fell off and I'm just like, okay, I don't deserve anything and I didn't really buy any things and you feel like it was the time for that sort of purchasing.

• 9:44Ramit Sethi?

  When did that happen?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Probably about seven months ago.

• 9:48Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Sucks.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I literally remember.

• 9:52Ramit Sethi?

  What was your first thought when that happened?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  You know, I wasn't actually upset at first, which is funny because she's mentioned before that we might be fine if I did a career pivot or went for slightly less money and became more comfortable.

• 10:03Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  But I have a hard time coming to terms with reducing my earning power that much.

• 10:06Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Well, this is a career that I've had for like 11 years, right? Like I've been a software engineer for 11 years. It pays pretty well in the past. It had a lot of flexibility in terms of remote hours and things like that, which is changing.

• 10:19Ramit Sethi?

  Did you feel anything at all or were you like, okay?

• 10:21Speaker 01

  I was like, okay. I mean, to be honest, it didn't hit me quite as hard the first time because I was getting the severance, which covered the first few months. And I wasn't happy there, if I'm totally being honest with myself. Like I was doing fine as far as every metric went, but I didn't feel like that was valued.

• 10:38Ramit Sethi?

  You feel it's common that you stay in situations that you don't like?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably.

• 10:44Ramit Sethi?

  Career, any other parts of life?

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Career primarily. One thing we talked about when I was looking for employment is I wanted to move, and this is a huge life decision, so I don't blame her for disagreeing, but I wanted to move a little bit further west so I could look at more jobs out and like closer to the coast, which is where a lot of the tech companies are. And she just pretty much just said no, and then we were done with the conversation.

• 11:08Ramit Sethi?

  And that's where you are today?

• 11:09Speaker 00

  Yes, that's where we are.

• 11:11Ramit Sethi?

  You say no, you still wanna do that for better job opportunities. Is that right?

• 11:15Speaker 01

  I was tempted, yes. It's something I wanna do, at least talk about or put on paper, but it just felt like instantly dismissive of my career when, being like honest, we moved to California for her career and she won't move 20 minutes west for me.

• 11:30Ramit Sethi?

  I see. Okay, Isabel, what do you do for a living?

• 11:32Speaker 00

  I am a professor at a university nearby.

• 11:35Ramit Sethi?

  And how long have you two been married for?

• 11:37Speaker 00

  12 years and a couple of weeks.

• 11:39Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, cool. Congrats. Kids?

• 11:41Speaker 00

  One child, yes, a four-year-old daughter.

• 11:44Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, great. All right. How do decisions get made in your household?

• 11:50Speaker 00

  It's probably going to be me for most, for most decisions, I would say. We have our financial system set up in a particular that was probably entirely me, which was setting up like a joint checking account, setting up credit cards connected to that for each. We each have individual checking and credit cards like separately where I don't look at it, I don't track it, I don't do anything with it. Like that, that was all set up by me. I'm the only one looking at things like life insurance. I'm the only one looking at things like a will.

• 12:21Ramit Sethi?

  When was the first time you had a serious conversation about money?

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Probably when we were getting married, we had like the standard discussion.

• 12:30Ramit Sethi?

  What's that?

• 12:30Speaker 01

  About like what we're comfortable spending at each time, what we're looking for in terms of where we wanna live in the future, all of that.

• 12:37Ramit Sethi?

  How much you're comfortable spending? What do you remember saying?

• 12:40Speaker 01

  At the time, we were making considerably less. So it was like $50.

• 12:43Speaker 00

  You're right. I remember that. I remember that. It was, yeah, yeah. It was premarital counseling.

• 12:49Ramit Sethi?

  Isn't it kind of interesting that now 12 years later, you are texting about a $6 ice cream scooper?

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's fair. I don't think it's about the ice cream scoop. It's probably just because I feel guilty about some of the other larger purchases and maybe I just make assumptions based on that.

• 13:07Ramit Sethi?

  I kinda love the idea that they were both in this store and he's agonizing over whether to buy ice cream scoop number one or ice cream scoop number two. It tells me so much about their relationship. What layers are you noticing here? Here's what I'm noticing. I'm noticing that instead of being curious of her partner when it comes to how he chooses to spend money, she kinda puts him down. And that makes me understand why he might not wanna participate in money in this relationship. She feels like she does everything, but also little jabs after checkout. Oh, you bought that one? Quite interesting. So I'm starting to suspect that whatever dynamic they have with money is co-created and definitely a lot

• 13:50Ramit Sethi?

  of it is due to control. Let's find out if I'm right. I'm gonna take a wild guess. Maybe you've been putting off seeing a doctor for a while for some unexplained condition. Hey, why is my left eye blurry? Do I have toe fungus? Or is it just gross toenails? Whatever it is, stop wondering if you should get it checked out. Go see someone right now. You can use our sponsor Zocdoc. They make it really easy. You don't even have to get on the phone to schedule an appointment. Zocdoc lets you search and compare local in-network doctors. Whether you're looking for primary care, dentistry, eye care, or anything else, you can easily search by specialty or symptoms and you can

• 14:31Ramit Sethi?

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• 15:15Ramit Sethi?

  When I first started IWT, I was the person who answered every single customer service email, but I didn't really love it. And as the company grew, I couldn't really keep up. So I hired a great customer success team that has taken over ever since. If you are looking for help with your customer service in your business, one great option is this episode's sponsor, 11 Agents by 11 Labs. 11 Agents is a platform for AI voice and chat agents that can actually listen, understand, and resolve customer issues. They handle the simple stuff like looking up customer accounts, processing requests, and they know when to hand off complex tasks to a person. Their agents use the same AI tech as 11 Labs,

• 15:55Ramit Sethi?

  the company known for realistic voice and audio models in over 70 languages. So if you've ever heard an AI voice that sounds real and natural, there's a good chance it's from 11 Labs. My team and I actually use 11 Labs. And if I needed AI voice and chat agents, I would use 11 Agents. If you're looking to improve your customer service experience, check out 11 Agents. If you run a business or handle customer operations across support, sales, or marketing, you can start with a demo at 11labs.io/ramit. See how 11 Agents can fit into your workflows and help build experiences that your customers

• 16:34Ramit Sethi?

  will actually love. 11labs.io/ramit. That's E-L-E-V-E-N-L-A-B-S dot I-O slash ramit. You know how they say when you get married, your life gets better because of your wife? I have found that to be true because my wife was like, why do you keep on staying awake all night? What's the point? You're just on Reddit. Get off, go to sleep. And I hate to say that I did it and it actually worked. That's why I try to go to sleep on time and we bought a high-quality mattress. I just take sleep a lot more seriously. And this is why I'm excited that sleep scientist Dr. Eric Prather is hosting our next presentation in our Rich Life Road to 100K program. Join us on Wednesday, September 30th for this

• 17:18Ramit Sethi?

  free live event where Dr. Prather will walk you through the exact changes he makes with patients in his sleep clinic, including what to do when you are lying awake in the middle of the night, or why going to bed earlier doesn't always mean more sleep. If you've tried everything and you still wake up exhausted, don't miss this very important addition to your rich life. Register today at iwt.com/expertsession. What else did you talk about in the survey? Investing?

• 17:47Speaker 00

  I don't think it was any.

• 17:48Ramit Sethi?

  Kids?

• 17:49Speaker 00

  Some of it was that detail stuff and then some of it was larger picture like.

• 17:53Ramit Sethi?

  Wait, this doesn't sound very substantive.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  No, I don't think it was.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  We have had discussions about saving as well.

• 17:59Ramit Sethi?

  What do you talk about?

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Well, usually it falls back on her. I end up feeling kinda dumb to be like, I'll bring up something like, maybe we should like start investing in stocks, but that's the absolute worst thing you can do. And I'll be like, okay.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  I don't know that I phrased it like that.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  You pretty much said that. What did you say then?

• 18:19Ramit Sethi?

  Actually, yeah. Let's recreate, let's recreate this conversation. So when did this happen? I like this.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  It's probably a couple of weeks ago, wasn't it?

• 18:26Ramit Sethi?

  Perfect. Okay, who brought it up?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  I did, because I was trying to look at like getting more involved in money because she wanted to talk about it.

• 18:31Ramit Sethi?

  Can you recreate it and I will just listen? Do it as realistically as possible.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  I was wondering if maybe we should set some money aside and I could start handling like investments for us and kind of research it and figure that out, like an individual stock portfolio.

• 18:44Speaker 00

  Are you thinking about like individual stocks, like selecting?

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Not individual ones.

• 18:50Speaker 00

  Places?

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Not like I've got a good feeling about Disney.

• 18:53Speaker 00

  Well, that's what, that's what wasn't clear to me because when I think about investing, it's like investing in, you know, probably a retirement account and thinking about funds that are diversified.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Right. Well, we're not really recreating the conversation.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  I know. Then realizing that there was a misunderstanding of from the beginning.

• 19:09Ramit Sethi?

  What's with the performance? I feel like you're both performing for me and I'm not interested in the performance. Because if y'all are here to put on a performance, then you're gonna walk out with me reacting to your performance. I don't really think you want that. Do you think that we could recreate that conversation as it actually happened?

• 19:27Speaker 01

  I was thinking about putting some money aside just to start investing in stocks on my own, so I'm kind of handling a bit more.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  I mean, I don't know if that's a great idea, honestly, because I can't, I honestly can't remember what I said, Ramit.

• 19:41Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, you can.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  No, I can't. I'm trying to think about what I said.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  You said it's one of the worst things we could do.

• 19:49Ramit Sethi?

  Well, let me tell you what's going on here. I suspect that you think it's gonna look bad if you actually say what you said, and so you're trying to mask it by saying something polite.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  Yes, I don't remember saying that, but maybe I did and I should trust your memory of it. That's fair. I probably did say that's probably one of the worst ways that you could invest. And I don't like hearing that coming out of my mouth now.

• 20:10Ramit Sethi?

  That's fine.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  I just feel like that's an example. Like every time I try to get more involved, I just feel like I'm shut down and I just belittle for it. So I just don't.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'm hearing that and just feeling like shit about it. Because that's not what I wanna do either. But.

• 20:31Ramit Sethi?

  Finish your sentence.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  I mean, I feel like I've put in a lot of time and effort to try and be more informed about things. And so I'm asking for his help on decisions, but he's not at that same level of informed. And then that's frustrating, too. I don't know where to go from there.

• 20:48Ramit Sethi?

  It seems like you want him to be involved, but when he tries to get involved, you don't approve of it.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  I think that sounds accurate.

• 20:56Ramit Sethi?

  Ice cream scoop all the way up to investments.

• 20:58Speaker 00

  I think that's accurate.

• 20:59Ramit Sethi?

  So what do you wanna do about that? Because I can give you a bunch of whiz bang stuff. Well, let's look at the numbers. Look at the percentages. Doesn't change anything. What is going on that you feel the need to control and direct his involvement with money?

• 21:18Speaker 00

  I mean, I do like being in control. I feel like currently I'm more knowledgeable about it. And I think that that's something that I try to leverage, but I am realizing that I probably need to just step back.

• 21:35Ramit Sethi?

  Really?

• 21:36Speaker 00

  I worry that if I step back, then things won't get done or things won't, I don't wanna say be done right, but be done right.

• 21:45Ramit Sethi?

  And if that happens?

• 21:47Speaker 00

  Then we're not going to be in a good financial situation moving forward. We won't have a secure future, or we won't have savings, or we won't have something to fall back on for our daughter. So.

• 22:00Ramit Sethi?

  Keep going.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  That's what gives me anxiety at night is thinking that if I step back, things are going to fall apart. And I don't like that feeling either, but it's very hard to stop.

• 22:13Ramit Sethi?

  You've heard stories of wife telling her husband, like, clean the kitchen counter and he cleans it. She goes, you didn't do it the right way. Now I need to do it. This is kind of a.

• 22:26Ramit Sethi?

  Wait, did this happen?

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, sort of. She says that I make the bed wrong. So anytime I make the bed, she'll go up and remake it. Anytime I sweep, she'll resweep.

• 22:38Speaker 00

  The pattern and it's not just in finances.

• 22:40Ramit Sethi?

  Talk me through it.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  If I want it to be done and if I want it to be done correctly, sometimes it's easier to do it myself.

• 22:46Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so just do it.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  But I'm tired all the time and I'm exhausted and I don't have the time to be doing all of these things. And I don't want to feel like if I make the wrong decision, it's all entirely my fault.

• 22:56Ramit Sethi?

  What do you get out of being a martyr?

• 23:05Speaker 00

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 23:07Ramit Sethi?

  Think about it.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  A sense of.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  It's not satisfaction, but a sense of contribution, a sense of like, I'm putting everything out there and no one can say that I'm not, you know, doing X, Y, or Z.

• 23:23Ramit Sethi?

  Because I'm working, I'm taking care of our daughter. I'm doing the finances. Right now I'm the breadwinner because he doesn't have a job. I'm even cleaning the kitchen counter the right way.

• 23:34Ramit Sethi?

  It feel good?

• 23:36Speaker 00

  I don't think it's, no.

• 23:39Ramit Sethi?

  I think it feels kind of good in a way.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  There's probably some truth to that, yeah. Because I'm very accustomed to always being on top of things and always being productive and always, always, always, always moving. Part of that is probably coming from the fact that I was functionally an only child of immigrant parents who did not speak English.

• 23:57Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, got it.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  And so from a very, very, very young age, I was the main translator from the age of 11. I knew our parents, our mortgage better than my parents did. Like I was very accustomed to that and I've always

• 24:14Speaker 00

  had that type of control.

• 24:15Ramit Sethi?

  What's the downside of trying to take on control in every part of your life?

• 24:20Speaker 00

  I get burnt out and I get exhausted.

• 24:22Ramit Sethi?

  What else?

• 24:23Speaker 00

  Well, like I said, I always kind of have this fear of I'm the only one making the decisions and what if I'm doing something wrong? And there's no one, you know, I don't have a cross check or some, someone to have input and validate or challenge decisions that may not be correct.

• 24:37Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what else?

• 24:39Speaker 00

  I mean, one of the things that I worry about too is my daughter seeing that and then replicating it herself because I'm replicating my own patterns. And I know that to some extent.

• 24:46Ramit Sethi?

  She's four, right? She sees it already.

• 24:49Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 24:49Ramit Sethi?

  What about your partner?

• 24:50Speaker 00

  Well, I think that he's starting, well, not starting to, but I think getting to a point where he feels like his input is invaluable and his decisions aren't valued.

• 24:58Ramit Sethi?

  So therefore he?

• 25:00Speaker 00

  Shuts down.

• 25:01Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, disempowered, says like, all right, I can't even get an ice cream scoop the right way. So you deal with it. Why not just keep doing this the rest of your life?

• 25:07Speaker 00

  The big thing for me and the thing that, the reason that I want to try and to make progress towards breaking these patterns is because I think a lot about our daughter. Like that's, that's really the main thing for me. I feel like if it was just me and him, I feel like I probably would be okay to continue this on. But A, I don't want her to grow up and feel like she has to do the same thing. It's tiring. But then the other thing that I worry about is like, if I walk out of the studio today and get hit by a bus and that's something we need to think about. But like right now, our retirement plan is primarily my pension. Like my income would fall through all, you know, so that's, that's the other thing that I worry about too. Like if something were to happen to me, then this whole structure falls apart.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  I'd warn you, I'd be upset, but I think we would carry on in some, to some degree. Most of our passwords are like vault, et cetera. And my current financial situation is pretty largely determined by where we're located as well. So if I was able to take Sophia and move, we could probably find something else, but like we'd figure something out is what I'm saying. I have thought about it. It's not like I go through and I brainstorm for it, but I don't think we'd be completely screwed.

• 26:24Ramit Sethi?

  How do you receive that, Isabel?

• 26:25Speaker 00

  I don't know if I believe it necessarily.

• 26:29Ramit Sethi?

  Why do you think she doesn't necessarily believe you?

• 26:31Speaker 01

  She doesn't have a lot of faith in my decision making or a lot of what I do.

• 26:35Ramit Sethi?

  Do you demonstrate engagement and excellence with money?

• 26:39Speaker 01

  No, but I feel like anytime I try to, I just kind of get shut down and I don't like debating. So, and she's much stronger when it comes to that.

• 26:48Ramit Sethi?

  Well, morbid or not, one way to win the debate is if your partner's dead,

• 26:54Ramit Sethi?

  there's no one to debate with anymore. I'll do it my way.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:57Ramit Sethi?

  Who else? I would prefer not to get to that.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  I would also prefer not to get to that.

• 27:02Ramit Sethi?

  I prefer not for my wife to die in order for me to have a way to engage with money.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  That's true. I mean, I'd still be uncomfortable, but I mean, I was, I was in my twenties when we were married. It's not like I was completely.

• 27:16Ramit Sethi?

  They seem like real concerns, Isabel.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:20Ramit Sethi?

  I'm worried about this. I'm worried about that. You worry a lot, right?

• 27:23Speaker 00

  I feel like when we were dual income and I, you know, when I was maxing out his 401k, when we had all of this set up, when I had my, like, I feel like I wasn't worrying about it as much then.

• 27:35Ramit Sethi?

  You're telling me that you were not stressed or worried about things in your household when he had a job?

• 27:41Speaker 00

  That's true, I think.

• 27:43Ramit Sethi?

  I don't believe that.

• 27:44Speaker 00

  You don't think so?

• 27:44Ramit Sethi?

  No way, not in a million years.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  I will agree with that to some extent.

• 27:48Ramit Sethi?

  Did she worry before, when you had a job or no?

• 27:51Speaker 01

  I think she did. We were dual income and we were making considerably more than we needed to.

• 27:58Ramit Sethi?

  And?

• 27:59Speaker 01

  And honestly, in her case, it paid off because I.

• 28:03Ramit Sethi?

  I just want to know, was she worried or not?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:05Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What is this? What's with the masks? The stories you're telling yourself, I don't worry. What, what, what's, what's going on here?

• 28:17Speaker 00

  I don't know. Maybe it's the story that I wish I was telling instead of the one that I am.

• 28:21Ramit Sethi?

  I, I was calm, I was cool and collected, but then this thing happened to him and now I'm forced to be worried. Have you all been to therapy?

• 28:32Speaker 01

  I've been to individual therapy, but we haven't done couples therapy.

• 28:35Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 28:35Speaker 00

  I mean, I suggested it once.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  You suggested it and then stormed off after a bit of an argument about money.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  I was very frustrated and upset.

• 28:43Ramit Sethi?

  What was going on in that conversation?

• 28:45Speaker 00

  I think I'd asked him something about like how his job search was going or, you know, something to that effect. And it felt like he responded in a very elevated manner. Like it felt like he kind of snapped a little bit. And then I snapped back and said, I think we need to go to therapy.

• 29:01Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  And I don't know that you, I don't know if you responded. I feel like I just blacked out and left.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  You just stormed off and didn't want to talk.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just left.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  So I just kind of let you be eventually.

• 29:10Speaker 00

  And then we didn't bring it up again.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I feel like for me, I'd just been ghosted after a second or third round interview and I was kind of not feeling great. So maybe there was a little bit more emotion in my voice at that point that wasn't intended or directed towards her.

• 29:25Speaker 00

  I think maybe there was stress and worry, but there was also more positive components to it than there are now. I feel like I was worrying about, you know, are we setting aside enough for retirement? Like, am I structuring these savings in a way that makes sense? But there was also this trade off of, oh, hey, but if we do this, we can also travel. Or hey, if we do this, we can also, you know, do these other positive things. And I feel like what's been lost more so is I'm not thinking about that anymore.

• 29:55Ramit Sethi?

  The positive parts.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I feel like some of the extra income and some of the extra that we had was going towards.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Fun.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  Fun, quote unquote, fun. And now we're in a position where like, I feel like I've cut all of that and what's left is this and it feels much heavier.

• 30:12Ramit Sethi?

  If and when Ryan gets a job that you will both feel good about money?

• 30:17Speaker 00

  I think I would feel better, but I think I'm also in a position now where I still like this, this is, this is a new threat or new anxiety that's been introduced where I'm still thinking about like, are our systems set up well enough as he's set up well enough so that we could move forward?

• 30:34Ramit Sethi?

  What's your answer to my question? Would you feel good about money?

• 30:38Speaker 00

  See, I want to say yes, but the answer is probably not immediately or not easily.

• 30:44Ramit Sethi?

  I think the answer is no.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:46Ramit Sethi?

  I don't know why it's so difficult to acknowledge there are parts of yourself that may be at odds with the way that you want to present yourself. I feel like I'm battling with a ghost right now. Every question I ask, I'm getting defensive reactions. And well, I should feel like that. I like to think I would feel like that, but it's all a bit of a show. And I wonder if you do that here, how much of that is happening when the two of you talk to each other?

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's quite possible. You brought up the example of would she be worried about money? I think we both would be anyway, because we were, we were super comfortable, basically like we had twice the income we have now and our expenses were pretty minimal. We're contributing like above advised levels to like our retirement. And I still felt like I have like no decision making ability. And when I bought the $3,000 espresso machine, I felt like crap. And I still do like two years, two, three years later.

• 31:46Ramit Sethi?

  So you're like, the fixation on the income without actually focusing on what's really going on here to me.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:55Ramit Sethi?

  It's not adding up.

• 31:58Ramit Sethi?

  Here's what I'd like to do. I want you to go outside and have a really honest conversation about what you want to get out of this. Because if you'd like to continue, I would love to continue with you. I think there's a lot of layers to dig into here. But if we're going to keep up the show, it's not for me.

• 32:19Ramit Sethi?

  Let's take a few minutes, they'll escort you out and then we'll come back and let me know what you decide. Okay?

• 32:26Ramit Sethi?

  I'm being a little tough on them. You know why? Because they are both wearing masks, almost like it's a performance. Now, I'm not sure if they know they are or not, but either way, I am not connecting with who they really are. So I'm effectively shaking them because I want to see that mask fall off. I don't mind who they are beneath it. Everyone does stuff that's embarrassing. Everyone says stuff that's maybe not perfectly politically correct. That's okay. This is a common thing. And the first step is actually acknowledging that we are different people in different situations. But I need to know who they actually are if we want to make changes. That is why I am being a little tough on them. What did you decide?

• 33:12Speaker 00

  Well, we're back here. So that was one thing. I always say part of my profession is I'm, you know, a third part performer. So I teach and I do professional development and I do workshops. And a lot of that involves presenting yourself in a particular way, speaking in a particular way, and also maintaining a sense of credibility and professionalism in how you present yourself. And I think because of that, I'm used to sometimes masking certain things that I don't particularly want to share or be very honest about. But the other reason that I was telling him I wanted to continue is because you're telling me things I don't want to hear.

• 33:51Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 33:52Speaker 00

  And sometimes I think we need people to do that.

• 33:56Ramit Sethi?

  I'm honored.

• 33:58Speaker 00

  So congratulations. You're making me very uncomfortable.

• 34:03Ramit Sethi?

  That's never my goal, but that sometimes is the byproduct.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:06Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And I can only imagine some of the ways that you've had to professionalize your appearance, the way that you show up as a woman, daughter of immigrants.

• 34:21Speaker 00

  As a person of color and as a person who's young in a space of professional development.

• 34:25Ramit Sethi?

  Exactly. Yes, especially in an academic environment. So let's acknowledge that. And the fact that you came back and you said, this is making me uncomfortable and I want to walk towards that. That's a huge sign for me, a positive sign. So I appreciate you coming back. Thank you. Ryan?

• 34:44Speaker 01

  I think I've been deflecting too much. I think that at some point, I don't know the main reasoning. Maybe I just felt like my opinion wasn't valued. So I just kind of quit trying or caring and I should have been putting more effort into it. And I have a lot of guilt, which is the reason for, but.

• 34:59Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm. Do you want to be here?

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want to be here.

• 35:03Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. I'm glad you're both back. I've been pushing hard and I want to acknowledge that. I know what it takes to be in those seats. It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of effort. I would be remiss if I let you walk out of here and I had spent hours reacting to the words you had said, but we hadn't really gotten to the truth. That's why I've been pushing. So what do you say? We keep moving forward?

• 35:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course.

• 35:30Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Let's do it.

• 35:32Ramit Sethi?

  Honestly, it's pretty impressive to see them come back in the room and share this new energy that they are bringing in here. That's one of the reasons that I try not to be too aggressive when I speak to couples. Cause I can browbeat anyone into saying, oh, I need to save more in my Roth IRA. But the minute they walk out of the room, they're not going to do it. When people see this almost judo that you're playing with each other, they start to realize, oh, if I want to get something out of this, I need to take the initiative. And I'm seeing that here. Both of them are saying, hey, we're ready. That responsibility is important, especially because when you come on this podcast, sometimes you might discover parts of yourself that you didn't even know exist.

• 36:16Ramit Sethi?

  And what's worse, sometimes you might not like what you see. But the fact that they are back and they are pushing on, I'm all for it. We're going to take a look at the numbers right after this. You ever leave an hour long call on Zoom and you end up looking at your notes and they say something like, remember the balances, follow up on the workshop. You're like, huh? Don't leave your important calls with notes that you can't even understand an hour later. Instead, use Granola and leave every call with insights and clear action steps that you can actually use. Granola is an AI powered notepad that makes your meeting notes useful. It captures what happens in your meetings and turns it into clean, structured notes with decisions and action items pulled out and made easy to find.

• 37:00Ramit Sethi?

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• 37:44Ramit Sethi?

  Go to granola.ai/ramit and try it on your next call. One of my money rules is that I like to buy the best and keep it as long as possible. Now, when I say the best, sometimes it's expensive. Sometimes it's not actually that expensive, but it is the best that I have found. I did it with my car when I bought a Honda Accord, which I kept for 19 years in meticulous condition. Same with my clothes, my phone, even my mattress. And that is why I chose a Leesa mattress. Leesa makes premium, beautifully crafted mattresses designed specifically for how you sleep, whether it's on your stomach, side or back. They make it easy to figure out which mattress is best for you. You just take their two minute sleep quiz. And Leesa mattresses were named the best hybrid

• 38:28Ramit Sethi?

  and best memory foam mattresses by the New York Times Wirecutter. And they come with free shipping, easy returns, and a 120 night sleep trial. Go to leesa.com for 25% off mattresses. Plus get an extra $50 off with promo code RAMIT, exclusive for my listeners. That's L E E S A dot com promo code RAMIT for 25% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off. And support our show and let them know we sent you after checkout. Leesa.com promo code RAMIT. I'm going to take a look at their numbers by pulling up their conscious spending plan. Let's take a look. Assets $1.2 million. Investments $175,000. Savings $68,000. Debt $688,000.

• 39:13Ramit Sethi?

  Total net worth $800,000. Fixed costs 83%. That's quite high. Investments at 3%, savings at zero, and guilt free spending at 15%. Very interesting here. So as I throw those numbers up, what was it like to do the conscious spending plan together?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, the plan, I don't know if I'd really say it was together. She filled in like a guess of what she had and I went over it and verified it. But maybe we didn't do it together, if I'm being honest. Like we had two different versions that kind of joined together after working on it separately. And when you say, how did it feel to do it together? That kind of shines more light into the dynamic we have.

• 39:54Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I, I've had a conscious spending plan. I've had our conscious spending plan for over a year, maybe two years now. So I, I had the plan. I have all of the accounts. I know what our spending is. I track that regularly. And then I think I kept, like I was trying to ask, can we, you know, sit down and walk through this together? It kind of kept not happening. And as I probably usually do, I just ended up doing it. So yeah, I don't think it was together necessarily.

• 40:22Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Turned into a transaction.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:25Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Probably a great illustration of how money works right now in your relationship.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 40:31Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Let's go through the numbers. My hope is that by the time you walk out of here, were you to do another CSP, you would do it together. Okay. What do you think of those numbers?

• 40:44Speaker 00

  I think they're pretty good, honestly. One of the things I'm proud of in that box is that our only debt is mortgage debt. So I worked very, very hard. We worked, not just me, we worked very, very hard to knock down kind of existing debt that we had. I think our, our investments could be higher. And I think that's a consequence of not figuring out what any of that meant or was until our mid 30s. But other than that, like I'm, I'm pretty happy with where we are there.

• 41:12Ramit Sethi?

  Good. I love hearing words like happy and proud. Proud is my favorite word that people use to describe how they feel about their numbers. That's awesome. Well done. Ryan, how about you?

• 41:21Speaker 01

  I feel pretty good about it indefinitely in terms of having assets. I feel like we have done a lot as far as that goes.

• 41:29Ramit Sethi?

  Do the numbers mean anything to you?

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, they do. They mean that, well, we're fairly comfortable, I guess, from the look of it.

• 41:40Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  I can probably buy the $14 ice cream scoop.

• 41:44Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm.

• 41:46Ramit Sethi?

  Is that for real? Is that what you take away from this?

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Part of it, yeah.

• 41:49Ramit Sethi?

  What else?

• 41:51Speaker 01

  And maybe I'm a little anxious about my purchases still.

• 41:54Ramit Sethi?

  You know that, right?

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I already knew that. Like, I'm not taking a lot away from it. I feel like with me, part of the problem is I know.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  I know it's irrational and maybe I would benefit from therapy more so than discussing it.

• 42:07Ramit Sethi?

  Not maybe, for sure.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:10Ramit Sethi?

  What I take away from your responses, there's a cloud in front of you, this cloud of anxiety, that doesn't let you actually see these numbers and see what they mean. And I would love it for both of you to be able to see all of your numbers and actually make meaning out of it.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:29Ramit Sethi?

  So one way to do that might be therapy, continued discussions, and what we're gonna do today. Okay? Let's see, Ryan, can you read off your combined gross monthly income, please?

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Sure. Gross monthly income, $12,594.

• 42:41Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Net monthly income is $9,189.

• 42:45Ramit Sethi?

  All right, so $12.5,000 per month. That's her income. I know that right now you don't have an income. That's a household income of $151,000. All right, fixed costs, what number is that, Isabel?

• 42:57Speaker 00

  83%.

• 42:58Ramit Sethi?

  That's pretty high.

• 42:59Speaker 00

  Yes. It doesn't feel high on a day-to-day for me.

• 43:03Ramit Sethi?

  Really?

• 43:04Speaker 00

  I feel like we have made a lot of adjustments in our day-to-day already that have helped mitigate some of that change, but I like where we eat out or don't eat out, like the kinds of activities we sign our daughter up or not for, like, we're having a big drop-off in daycare spending.

• 43:23Ramit Sethi?

  You two may be the only couple who actually adjusted your spending down after cutting half your income out. Like, this never happens.

• 43:30Speaker 00

  So, yeah, that's why I think it's

• 43:32Ramit Sethi?

  Are you guys hearing me? Have you ever taken the compliment?

• 43:35Speaker 00

  No, I haven't. I'm terrible at taking compliments.

• 43:38Ramit Sethi?

  You all are pivoting off to some other thing I don't care about.

• 43:40Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 43:41Ramit Sethi?

  Take the compliment. It's amazing. Nobody ever does this. You guys are unique.

• 43:48Ramit Sethi?

  That's amazing. I also have never heard anyone with 83% fixed costs say that it doesn't actually feel that stressful.

• 43:54Speaker 00

  Like, I'm not worried about, am I going to make the mortgage payment, or are we going to have enough to cover the gas bill? You know, that that's what I think of when I think about money stresses. We were going to meet all of our fixed costs and we'll have some left over.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  I will say that I'm pretty proud that we lost this actively half our income and we still managed to kind of avoid dipping into savings, which is something that people generally have to do.

• 44:18Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:20Ramit Sethi?

  Big time. It's incredible. Your emergency fund is 68, let's just say $70,000.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  And we haven't, we haven't really touched that.

• 44:27Ramit Sethi?

  That's roughly 10 months of expenses, maybe nine months.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:30Ramit Sethi?

  That's impressive. All right, let's look at the rest of the numbers. Investments are at 3%. That 3% post-tax is a 529.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 44:38Ramit Sethi?

  So y'all are putting money aside for your four-year-old instead of for yourself.

• 44:43Speaker 00

  Part of it is that I have a solid pension, and so I have 8% taken pre-tax. So that's already accounted for. That's why my net monthly income is that chunk lower. And I also have that small additional 403B for mine.

• 44:58Ramit Sethi?

  150 a month for that.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  When Ryan was working, we were maxing out his 401K, but that had been a recent development. I logged in and increased the contributions myself. But I don't know where that account lives right now. I can't access it. I can't put money into it. I can't access it. I don't have the dual off for it.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  I locked you in.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  But, so, his retirement contributions have stopped entirely.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, my retirement contributions have stopped. I need to move it over.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  The reason why that's

• 45:26Speaker 01

  I'm actually in the process of doing that. I'm trying to get a check.

• 45:28Ramit Sethi?

  Is this an issue? Like, the fact that right now he's not contributing to his 401K?

• 45:32Speaker 00

  I think it's an issue, yes. Um, I've because what if I go outside tomorrow and get hit by a bus?

• 45:39Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, what if?

• 45:39Speaker 00

  I think, I think he won't have anything to fall back on. Part of what's been annoying me, I don't know about that, is I've been asking, can you move this to a non-employer account? Like, can you move it to just a standard, you know, IRA or something else? And I think you've been saying, yeah, I'll look into it for a while now.

• 45:59Ramit Sethi?

  You drag your feet, Ryan?

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Sometimes, yes. Yeah.

• 46:04Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  If I'm being totally honest, maybe there's a degree of, like, false hope. Like, I was interviewing multiple times, and I'm just like, yeah, this job's really close. I'm gonna get it, and I'll just move it over to another employer 401K, and then it fell apart at the last minute.

• 46:18Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm. Investments are at 3%. Again, going to your 529. Savings are at 0.

• 46:25Speaker 00

  That reflects how I've essentially always functioned around savings, which is what we have left over goes into the spare savings, high-yield savings account, and then if we have the money for a thing, we do it, and if we don't, we don't.

• 46:40Ramit Sethi?

  So this is interesting now. Now I'm seeing.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Now it's stressing me out.

• 46:44Ramit Sethi?

  Right. This approach, which is a little sloppy of like, hey, like, let's just cover everything, and then whatever's left over, we'll put in savings. That works when you have, like, oodles and oodles of money, because you can't, I mean, bread is bread. There's no amount you're gonna spend on bread that's gonna materially affect you. So a 300K, you're doing great. And now you're realizing, oh, my gosh, savings is not growing at all. Okay?

• 47:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:08Ramit Sethi?

  And then finally, we go down to guilt-free spending, 15% or $1,356. Is that accurate?

• 47:14Speaker 00

  That's probably high.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Typically, we go months about spending anything, but then we have, like, a large lump purchase.

• 47:20Ramit Sethi?

  What would it be that's a lump one?

• 47:21Speaker 01

  We have an upcoming trip to Iceland that she paid for in advance.

• 47:25Ramit Sethi?

  It's interesting. Looking at your numbers, all the spending is quite reasonable in the category. Groceries, 650. After-school care, 350. Pet costs, 135. But then, I notice two mortgages.

• 47:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 47:40Ramit Sethi?

  So we've got a mortgage on a house and a mortgage on a condo. Can you walk me through it?

• 47:43Speaker 00

  That is, well, I can tell you, that's what feels like it's killing us sometimes. The long story or the short story?

• 47:50Ramit Sethi?

  Give me the short first in one sentence.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  The short story is we are paying the mortgage on my mom's condo.

• 47:55Ramit Sethi?

  What's the longer story?

• 47:57Speaker 00

  The longer story is my dad passed away a few years ago. She was living three hours away. My mom was living three hours away and could not sustain it. She's older, she has mobility issues, and so we decided to move her down here. Much more expensive in this area, and so the house that she sold in central California was in no way going to pay for a home here. So we put the entirety of the house's value into the condo down, into the down payment for a condo. So

• 48:25Ramit Sethi?

  What percent?

• 48:26Speaker 00

  About 50%.

• 48:27Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so that's why the amount you're paying is so low?

• 48:30Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 48:31Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and how many more years on that condo?

• 48:33Speaker 00

  28.

• 48:34Ramit Sethi?

  20. Okay, let's just say 30.

• 48:36Speaker 00

  And yeah, and it's a high percentage.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  It's worth saying that her mom also owns additional property that she's looking into selling that would cover a large chunk of that.

• 48:45Ramit Sethi?

  Really?

• 48:46Speaker 00

  She is, yes.

• 48:47Ramit Sethi?

  How soon?

• 48:48Speaker 00

  It's in, that's, that's, that's been a point of disagreement between us. She has a home in Mexico that she is trying to sell, but it's been a couple of years now, and she's

• 48:58Ramit Sethi?

  Couple of years?

• 48:59Speaker 00

  Moving slow on it.

• 49:00Ramit Sethi?

  Give me your phone. I'll knock this out in 15 minutes. What do you mean? What? A couple of years?

• 49:05Speaker 00

  I think she's struggling with letting it go.

• 49:07Ramit Sethi?

  How much will she make?

• 49:09Speaker 00

  About enough to pay off the condo.

• 49:12Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  About 200 or so.

• 49:13Ramit Sethi?

  That's quite interesting. And would she take the money and pay off the condo?

• 49:16Speaker 00

  I think so, but I think the reason she would do that right now is because she knows that Ryan doesn't have a job and that we're

• 49:24Speaker 00

  paying it ourselves.

• 49:25Ramit Sethi?

  She knows this?

• 49:26Speaker 00

  Yes, she does.

• 49:27Ramit Sethi?

  And what does she feel about that? Does she feel stressed?

• 49:30Speaker 00

  I think so, yes. I think she feels enormously more stressed than I do.

• 49:34Ramit Sethi?

  How's that possible?

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Well, she comes from, from, you know, my childhood and from our upbringing, she comes from a place where, you know, she remembers a time when my dad lost his job and they were within inches of losing the house. So her stress is coming from a place of, if I don't do this, you're going to lose everything.

• 49:53Ramit Sethi?

  But, but not enough for her to sell the house?

• 49:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:57Ramit Sethi?

  Does she have social security?

• 49:58Speaker 00

  Yes, that's her only source of income.

• 50:00Ramit Sethi?

  That covers what she needs on a day-to-day basis, or do you have to put in extra?

• 50:03Speaker 00

  No, that's about covers what she needs.

• 50:06Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, if worse came to worse, theoretically, we have talked to her, and she's okay with moving in with us and renting said condo. But we haven't really quite approached that yet.

• 50:17Ramit Sethi?

  Do you think you need to do that?

• 50:19Speaker 01

  Not quite yet, but I think we're approaching on that territory if I can't find something else.

• 50:25Ramit Sethi?

  You might be surprised, but these numbers are okay to me. Let me tell you why. First, while 83% is way higher than I like to see, I can see that all of their fixed costs are quite reasonable, except for having two mortgages. Next, I can see that their savings, while they are saving $0, they actually have 10 months of savings. So if they want to stop saving, okay. Their guilt-free spending, 15%, not bad for a one-income household. Yeah, there are a couple of things that I noticed. They don't have any money for vacations and they've talked about liking to travel, et cetera, et cetera. If they wanted to continue like this, they could, but that's actually what troubles me.

• 51:05Ramit Sethi?

  So if anything, I want to help them sharpen their spending so that it becomes very clear who they are, what they love, right in their CSP.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  I also know that if we took it out, we'd be back down to 60% for fixed costs approximately.

• 51:19Ramit Sethi?

  Should we look?

• 51:20Speaker 01

  You can.

• 51:20Ramit Sethi?

  Let's take a look. Let's zero out the condo, down to 66%. You know, you have cut back on other things in fixed costs. I can see that. It's impressive.

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, a lot of those numbers are reflecting serious cutbacks.

• 51:35Ramit Sethi?

  That you've cut back.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 51:36Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. No savings, except for this 70K that you put aside when times were flush.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 51:44Ramit Sethi?

  I noticed things like no vacation money.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  Which kills me.

• 51:49Ramit Sethi?

  Because I know that vacations are important to you.

• 51:51Speaker 00

  Yes, it is.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, up until now, it hasn't really been an issue. I think it will be more of an issue long-term because that factors in the fact that we paid for some of the vacations and a large chunk of it already.

• 52:02Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, like Iceland?

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:03Ramit Sethi?

  Where did that money come from?

• 52:04Speaker 00

  It came from the before times, I'll say.

• 52:08Ramit Sethi?

  So. BL, before layoff, okay.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I acknowledge it was sloppy, but a lot of the time, we had enough income for many years that my strategy was, I will just, you know, take whatever's left over in the checking account at the end of the month, bring it down to like eight grand, say, send over the rest to high-yield savings and, oh, look, there's enough money there to book this trip, so.

• 52:29Ramit Sethi?

  Ryan, what are you hearing when she describes this?

• 52:31Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 52:32Ramit Sethi?

  Are you hearing a well-developed financial plan?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Not really necessarily.

• 52:37Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, but isn't it interesting that in your relationship, she's the one in charge?

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. I mean, I feel like if I try to develop something, it's dismissed, but I don't really pay attention to what she's doing and maybe I should be as well.

• 52:50Ramit Sethi?

  Not maybe.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:52Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. I find this pattern is very, very common where we have the person who's the money person and they have like multiple spreadsheets. How many spreadsheets do you have?

• 53:03Speaker 00

  Oh, no, I don't have any spreadsheets other than this one.

• 53:05Ramit Sethi?

  This is the only one?

• 53:06Speaker 00

  I keep everything on an app.

• 53:08Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, how many times a day do you log into your app?

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Anytime I buy something, I get a, what's this $12 charge?

• 53:16Ramit Sethi?

  Thank you very much. So they are in the guts of the finances. And then that partner doesn't pay attention, goes, ah, you're so good at it. You're better at math than I am. You handle it. You're so good. And then what it turns out to be is that the person who's the money person actually does not really have a developed system. They just move numbers around here, there. They think that managing money is paying bills. I find this is very common, especially with women who come on here, paying bills is managing money. That's not managing money. That's like pushing paper. Computers can do it better than us. But nobody in the relationship, even the money person, is talking about the important things. What percentage is automatically going to savings? What's our investment rate?

• 53:58Ramit Sethi?

  Are we going to have enough at retirement? How do we plan for this vacation that we want to take? These are big questions, but most of us end up being concerned about the price of pickles. Sound familiar?

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:10Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 54:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would agree.

• 54:11Ramit Sethi?

  So healthy is I am interested because I know that money affects us, it affects our daughter, it affects everybody around us, my mother-in-law, all of it. I am knowledgeable and if I don't have the knowledge, I read the book, one of those, both of those. And I communicate because I gotta get my partner and me, we gotta be on the same page. That's how it would look like. What about for you, Isabel?

• 54:41Speaker 00

  A healthier relationship and a healthier couple's relationship with money would involve me being less judgmental and being more open to suggestions or ideas. And even if I don't agree with them initially, being open to saying, either we can discuss this further or can we both learn about this together and come back to it? Because I was realizing that, and again, this comes back to a professional setting. In a lot of professional settings, I'm very accustomed to being the person that's most knowledgeable in the room and the person that's in power in the room. I think I'm realizing that I bring that into a lot of spaces. I'm laughing because internally, because I remember he's mentioned before, like you're using your teacher voice.

• 55:20Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 55:21Speaker 00

  And.

• 55:21Ramit Sethi?

  Insightful.

• 55:22Speaker 00

  And I don't mean to do that, but.

• 55:24Ramit Sethi?

  And it's more than the voice too, right?

• 55:26Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 55:26Ramit Sethi?

  It's not just the voice, it's the?

• 55:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's the mentality. It's the mentality of I have authority and I have power in the space. And I don't know that I realized that I was doing that.

• 55:37Ramit Sethi?

  That's good. What a great realization, like life-changing.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:40Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, my God.

• 55:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:42Ramit Sethi?

  So I actually think it's incredibly courageous of both of you to be here. Isabel, for you to apply, amazing. For you to stay here, even though you're discovering like these things that are quite uncomfortable.

• 55:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:52Ramit Sethi?

  Right? I appreciate you. And then Ryan, you're here. You initially said, I'm here because she wants me to be here. What are you seeing for the reason that you are actually here now?

• 56:03Speaker 01

  I want to be more comfortable with money. I want to have like more of a say in the decisions.

• 56:08Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, I want you to as well.

• 56:11Ramit Sethi?

  Who does the laundry in your relationship?

• 56:15Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, did I open up a can of worms? I just wanted a simple one. Who empties the dishwasher? I don't care. Pick a simple one.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  We each do our own laundry.

• 56:23Ramit Sethi?

  Huh?

• 56:24Speaker 00

  I went on laundry strike, I'm going to call that, because I was tired of doing the whole family's laundry all the time.

• 56:30Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 56:31Speaker 00

  And so, one, I don't, we didn't even discuss it. I think one week I just did my laundry and I picked out all of his. And then the next week, we had two laundry baskets.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  I still do hers from time to time. I should reflect on, but she doesn't touch mine ever.

• 56:45Ramit Sethi?

  What did you think of the fact that one day she just stopped doing your laundry?

• 56:48Speaker 01

  I thought it was passive-aggressive.

• 56:50Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 56:50Speaker 00

  And it probably, it probably was.

• 56:52Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, I agree. And what else?

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Frustrating that it wasn't communicated.

• 56:57Ramit Sethi?

  What a microcosm. Here I am, just trying to find a simple example. And it turns out, every, every little thing I look under, there's like a story that is, that is a microcosm of what's going on here.

• 57:10Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 57:11Ramit Sethi?

  Like, I don't mind if y'all do separate laundry, whatever.

• 57:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:13Ramit Sethi?

  But the fact that it was never communicated and that you went on strike, which meant there must have been a lot of frustration. Whoa. I don't know if you see a brighter future, but I do. There is a brighter future where the two of you actually feel good about laundry. There is a brighter future where you feel good about money, where you can talk about it, where you might disagree, you might do it differently than you're doing it now, but you actually both are like, okay, we're a team.

• 57:44Speaker 00

  Right.

• 57:46Ramit Sethi?

  Do you believe that?

• 57:48Speaker 00

  I think so, yes. I, yes.

• 57:50Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:51Ramit Sethi?

  Right?

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 57:52Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. In this family, Isabel manages the money. She's also recently the sole earner. And if something's going to get done, she's got to do it herself. Does any of this sound familiar? Maybe for your parents, maybe for you. This is something I frequently hear, especially from the female guests on this show. And as Isabel takes on more and more responsibility on her shoulders, do you notice the dynamic happening with Ryan? She sends totally mixed messages. Hey, I need you to participate in the money. Oh, you're not doing it right, though. Hey, I need you to participate more around the house. Ah, you're not doing it my way, though. And that is very confusing for the recipient.

• 58:34Ramit Sethi?

  When you get mixed messages, a lot of times people simply give up because they go, no matter what I do, I can't do it right. So I'm opting out of this game altogether. We do not want that in a relationship. We want to find a way to come together, to have a vision, something that connects us, not keeps us separate. How am I going to get them to come together, especially if it means having to change who they are from the inside out? Do you think the CSP is in a good position or not?

• 59:03Speaker 00

  I think.

• 59:06Speaker 00

  So, yes, I think that the change that we need to make is probably to increase income. And I think we maybe disagree a little bit on how to do that.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:16Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, let's talk about that. So what has the discussion been around, Ryan, you getting a job?

• 59:22Speaker 01

  I've been focusing on high earning jobs. I've always been the one who's been pursued rather than the one who's in pursuit. So this is new for me. And I think that's part of the reason why I'm struggling with it.

• 59:33Ramit Sethi?

  What is your plan going forward?

• 59:36Speaker 01

  I'm currently looking at pivoting some other positions. I'm looking at moving into some tangentially related fields that are a little bit more localized, but pay less.

• 59:46Ramit Sethi?

  How much would you make ballpark?

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Probably like 70, 80,000.

• 59:49Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so you used to make 150.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:51Ramit Sethi?

  You'd make, let's say 70, 80 with one of these jobs. It'd be nearby your place.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:55Ramit Sethi?

  And you could do it. Are you okay with that job?

• 59:57Speaker 01

  I'd probably be okay because I'd still be closer to my child and have a better work-life balance.

• 1:00:02Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Honestly, it sounds like a great plan to me.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:05Ramit Sethi?

  Isabel, what's your perspective on this?

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  We need to increase income, but I don't necessarily think that's has to be him working. So like one possibility that I floated by him is that he could be a stay-at-home dad for a few years. I have the potential to make more money. I always do. I think I have a fair amount of expertise in my field and I could teach summer classes and make an extra 20K. I could take on, you know, additional grant work or additional training or additional university. Like I had an opportunity pop up in my email last week to make an extra 2K over the summer just for, you know, some, some committee work. I've floated that as an idea by him. I don't think it would be a substantial increase in income, but it would be enough to offset some of those losses.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  If I can interject, I feel like that's not necessarily the best move because she's always telling me she's drowning and she's doing too much already.

• 1:00:59Ramit Sethi?

  Hold on, I kind of love, like, this is cool. Like, nah, I think you say that, but actually I don't believe it. I kind of love this.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  This is something we already talked about. Now she's bringing up something that counteracts that. It worries me a little bit.

• 1:01:12Ramit Sethi?

  Right. Like it doesn't add up. You're already stressed. You're already feeling overwhelmed. You're on laundry strike. Although this stay-at-home dad would solve the laundry problem. But you want to take on more? What do you make of that?

• 1:01:28Speaker 00

  The other thing that I floated by is a complete career pivot and trying to find other ways.

• 1:01:33Ramit Sethi?

  I mean, it's really funny that in the example where you do not feel good, your solution is to tell him what to do next.

• 1:01:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Ramit Sethi?

  Isn't that the problem?

• 1:01:42Speaker 00

  I mean, my solution.

• 1:01:43Ramit Sethi?

  Take a look in the mirror. Hold on. Do I have a mirror right here? Look, let me put this camera on. I'm going to put it at you. Look at this mirror. Look in the mirror.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  It's funny because the first thing that I probably would have said is if I wasn't happy with something, I would have done it myself.

• 1:01:58Ramit Sethi?

  Which would be?

• 1:01:59Speaker 00

  No, like if I came home and I don't know, the toys weren't put away.

• 1:02:02Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, you would have done it yourself.

• 1:02:03Speaker 00

  I would probably passive aggressively have put everything away myself.

• 1:02:06Ramit Sethi?

  Like, like.

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  Like, that's the actual truth. That's the actual truth that I would have done.

• 1:02:10Ramit Sethi?

  Like not, not telling you.

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  Rage cleaning?

• 1:02:12Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, rage cleaning.

• 1:02:12Speaker 00

  I know, it's rage cleaning. I'm a terrible rage cleaner.

• 1:02:15Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so perhaps we can do this in a more healthy way.

• 1:02:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's not a healthy way.

• 1:02:19Ramit Sethi?

  If everything that you construct in this plan works and you still don't feel better, what would you do? Hint, work on this. How do you do that? How do you work on your own feelings?

• 1:02:31Speaker 00

  Right now, I don't. No, I don't.

• 1:02:32Ramit Sethi?

  But what would you do?

• 1:02:34Speaker 00

  Talk to him, right? We should talk together. We should talk about meeting expectations or changing expectations possibly.

• 1:02:42Ramit Sethi?

  I'm going to suggest that the two of you maybe don't yet have these skills.

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:02:46Ramit Sethi?

  So how do you do it?

• 1:02:47Speaker 00

  I mean, I still think we probably need to go to therapy.

• 1:02:49Ramit Sethi?

  Agreed. Maybe get a coach? Maybe get your own coach or therapist? Like, there's so many ways to get help besides rage cleaning and then telling him what to do.

• 1:02:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:59Ramit Sethi?

  And that's actually the crux of what's going on here, which is like total disconnection, parent-child thing, and not actually having a vision of what do I want? What do you want? And then what do both of you want?

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's what we are, especially what we both want, I think, is there's a disconnect there right now in terms of what we see moving forward.

• 1:03:22Ramit Sethi?

  I got to figure out how this all started. And we're going to get into that right after this. How come everybody teaches you how to save, but nobody teaches you the skill of spending money meaningfully? It's a tragedy to end up older and older, having atrophied at the skill of using your money to live a rich life. I need you to take this seriously. And if you need help planning your retirement and you want to go into scenarios and more specificity, check out Facet. Facet can help you make a plan that lets you use your money for the moments that matter to you. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets.

• 1:04:05Ramit Sethi?

  And you get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary, who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country, saving for kids' college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan should match up with your rich life vision. And Facet can help make that possible without the exorbitant fees. As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members. And for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days.

• 1:04:45Ramit Sethi?

  Head to facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC-registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Facet and have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome.

• 1:05:06Ramit Sethi?

  Isabel, what do you remember your parents saying about money when you were young?

• 1:05:10Speaker 00

  We can't afford that or we don't have the money. My parents were seasonal laborers. So my dad did a lot of farm, farm and field labor. My mom was at factories. So a lot of the time they would work six to seven months out of the year. And then you made it work for the others based off of savings and unemployment and just figuring things out.

• 1:05:35Ramit Sethi?

  Yep.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  I was very accustomed to knowing where we were financially, what we could and could not afford. But it was always a, you know, we, we need to save for when we won't have money.

• 1:05:46Ramit Sethi?

  Did you tell them that?

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  They were telling me that.

• 1:05:49Ramit Sethi?

  I see.

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  And, and I think I internalized that message very early on. I still remember I wouldn't ask for things because I knew we couldn't afford them. So.

• 1:05:57Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:58Speaker 00

  You just wouldn't ask for it.

• 1:05:59Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. What else did you observe them doing with money?

• 1:06:03Speaker 00

  I didn't observe my dad doing a whole lot of anything. I think he was always just, I'm going to go out and I will work as hard as I possibly can, as many hours as I can and come home. And their routine by the time I came along was I will just sign over my check and pass it along to you. And my mom was the one who always managed everything.

• 1:06:22Ramit Sethi?

  It's common, right? Common in a lot of matriarchal cultures.

• 1:06:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:26Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was always just the mechanics, right? Like we're managing how we pay all of the bills. This, this way we maybe will have enough for X or Y, but not Z. Like it was a lot of that type of messaging.

• 1:06:37Ramit Sethi?

  Did you go to college?

• 1:06:38Speaker 00

  I did.

• 1:06:38Ramit Sethi?

  How'd you pay for it?

• 1:06:39Speaker 00

  Full ride.

• 1:06:40Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 1:06:41Speaker 00

  Also grad school, full ride.

• 1:06:42Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, very impressive.

• 1:06:43Speaker 00

  Which is why I don't have debt. That's why I don't.

• 1:06:45Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:46Ramit Sethi?

  That's pretty cool. Were they impressed that you were able to do that?

• 1:06:51Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. They were both very, very proud of me. I think they valued education quite a bit. And so that was something that they fostered from a very early on age. I still, I still tell folks, my mom doesn't know what I do really. She doesn't, she doesn't understand what I did in grad school. She doesn't understand quite what I do now other than I teach.

• 1:07:09Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:09Speaker 00

  But I think they were both very proud of that and also very thankful because if they hadn't done that, I would have been in student loan debt. There is no other way around it. There was, there was absolutely no way they could have contributed at all.

• 1:07:21Ramit Sethi?

  When you think about your relationship with your parents, your relationship with money, their relationship with money, what messages about money do you think you internalized as a kid that you are bringing into this relationship?

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  There was definitely the messaging of your dad doesn't know what he's doing with money, so I will do all of it. Because when he, when he did manage the money, they didn't get anywhere or do anything. So all of the property they built, the house, everything was after my mom started managing it. There was, there was definitely that. There was a lot of scarcity mindset around money. Like we don't, like I said, I don't, I didn't ask for things because I didn't have it.

• 1:08:02Ramit Sethi?

  You have scarcity mindset today?

• 1:08:04Speaker 00

  I think right now we have been. And I think that's been part of like, actually, you know, I, when, when we realized that our income was dropping, it was a very natural reflex to just say, okay, we are, like we are cutting now.

• 1:08:16Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:08:16Speaker 00

  And I said, we've lived on a much lower income before. So I think it was like, yep, all right, we're, we're not eating out at this place anymore. Like, that's just what it is because that's what I grew up with.

• 1:08:26Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what else?

• 1:08:27Speaker 00

  I also know that there was a lot of things I didn't learn from them, right? Like my mom, right now, her only income is social security. There was no concept really of saving for anything other than, than that.

• 1:08:38Ramit Sethi?

  Does your mom or did she ever dream?

• 1:08:43Speaker 00

  I don't think so. I mean, I think having a house was their dream.

• 1:08:46Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:47Speaker 00

  Which is why right now for her to, to have that house and pass it on.

• 1:08:53Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, that's meaningful to her in a way that others may not recognize. Yeah.

• 1:09:01Ramit Sethi?

  Do you dream?

• 1:09:08Speaker 00

  Long-term, I don't know that I do. Like there's, there's things that I know that I enjoy doing, but I don't know what it, yeah, what it looks like down the line.

• 1:09:19Ramit Sethi?

  Your mom spent a lot of time in the mechanics of money. Dad hands over the check. She makes sure the bills are paid.

• 1:09:29Ramit Sethi?

  Puts the money aside for when times are lean.

• 1:09:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:09:33Ramit Sethi?

  You do the same. Money comes in, your husband makes money, made money at his job, gives it to you. You sign him up for his 401K. You make sure the bills are getting paid on time.

• 1:09:47Ramit Sethi?

  It's okay, it's fine. You're getting things done. Stuck in the mechanics forever, though, from one generation to the next.

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:09:55Ramit Sethi?

  Even though income has gone up.

• 1:09:57Speaker 00

  Tenfold.

• 1:09:58Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:59Speaker 00

  From what my parents made.

• 1:10:00Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. No dreaming still, just mechanics, just pure mechanics.

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:10:09Ramit Sethi?

  What are you hearing, Ryan?

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  I feel like she does dream to some extent, but it's usually smaller scale dreams like my own. She's always the first one to be watching travel videos on Instagram and all over the place. She's she's told me before that she lives for her next trip.

• 1:10:27Ramit Sethi?

  Oh.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  Consider that a form of dreaming.

• 1:10:29Ramit Sethi?

  Wait, I love that, but where is it in the CSP? It's nowhere right now.

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  It's nowhere right now.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:34Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, got it. Fair enough. Fair enough. I actually think your reaction to the cutting of 50% income is very, maybe more healthy than any other couple I've seen on this podcast. Most people, they lose some income and they just go, eh, that sucks. Anyway, let's go to TGI Fridays. I'm like, what?

• 1:10:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Ramit Sethi?

  How are you spending 75 bucks there? Anyway, the travel thing is interesting. You like to travel. You said, I dream of the next trip, but you didn't answer that in the dream. Why?

• 1:11:06Speaker 00

  Because that's a zero right now. Like, I don't know.

• 1:11:09Ramit Sethi?

  Ah.

• 1:11:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know what that would look like.

• 1:11:12Ramit Sethi?

  Do you think, deep down, you are not confident that your husband will ever make an income again?

• 1:11:20Speaker 00

  Oh, no. I don't think that I don't. I'm having a hard. I know I should answer a yes or no question because this was a yes or no question.

• 1:11:30Speaker 00

  I think he can make an income again, yes.

• 1:11:32Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, fair enough.

• 1:11:33Speaker 00

  I don't know that I'm 100% convinced it can, or maybe should be in the same field. And I don't think that's necessarily because he is or is not incapable of it. I think that's because in your previous job and a couple of others, like, I don't ever feel like you were passionate about it. And I feel like now might be a time to pivot or to find something that you maybe has better balance or that you care more about. And so that's, that's where I am. Like, I think, yes, he can make an income again. That's, that's not the question. I just question whether there could be things that are better fits. That was a very long answer to a very short question.

• 1:12:10Ramit Sethi?

  No, it's quite illuminating because while you may or may not be right, my perspective is, why are you telling him what to do about his career?

• 1:12:18Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 1:12:19Ramit Sethi?

  Like, it's just perpetuating this parent dynamic.

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:23Ramit Sethi?

  Why don't you tell your daughter that she's not allowed to go into this field and?

• 1:12:27Speaker 00

  Well, she's, she's, we're not gonna go there.

• 1:12:29Ramit Sethi?

  What is she not allowed to do? It's okay. Kids of immigrants can say what the kids, like, you think if, if my kid want to be an actor, I'd be like, what the fuck?

• 1:12:36Speaker 00

  Well, that's what I said. She's not allowed to go into the arts.

• 1:12:39Ramit Sethi?

  But I will say this. This is what I said. Here's my real answer. Cause like, yeah, you know, Indian people are not like really into their kids becoming actress or actor in general. However, if a kid want to be an actor or actress, I would say, okay, you gotta go interview 20 actors and actresses, successful ones, failures, everything. You gotta ask them about their lifestyle. How much can you spend on a haircut? How often do you travel? Where do you live? Can I see what your apartment looks like? And then you get honest, like, is this the kind of lifestyle I want or not? Cause if they really want to do it, they're gonna do it. But most kids make dumb decisions because they don't know anything.

• 1:13:14Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 1:13:14Ramit Sethi?

  All right.

• 1:13:15Speaker 00

  But he's not a kid.

• 1:13:17Ramit Sethi?

  He's not a kid.

• 1:13:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:18Ramit Sethi?

  And this whole, like, you should do this or try that or whatever, is just one more screw in the disempowering toolbox.

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Ramit Sethi?

  Ryan, any reactions?

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I partially heard that I don't think she's going, thinks I'm going to make the same salary again, which might be me being defensive because I feel the same way because it was a high earning potential of a lot of time dedicated to it.

• 1:13:45Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  And I think that's partially where the.

• 1:13:49Ramit Sethi?

  Do you feel that your value is determined by your income?

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  A little bit sometimes, if I'm being honest. I want to say no, but yeah, I think there's some, like.

• 1:13:58Ramit Sethi?

  That's fine.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  Some truth to that.

• 1:13:59Ramit Sethi?

  Most men feel the exact same way. Most men see themselves purely as a provider.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:14:05Ramit Sethi?

  And then, so do you see yourself as a provider?

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd say so. I also feel like in my family dynamic, like larger scale, my parents are, don't really talk to me much about my accomplishments, other than like my career.

• 1:14:24Ramit Sethi?

  Well, well, well. What a surprise. Isabel is behaving very similarly to what she saw modeled from her mom. It's no surprise she feels like she needs to be in control of everything because she's been doing basically that since she was 12 years old, almost taking on the role of a parent in her own relationship with her parents. And there's a double whammy that her mom took over responsibility of the family finances because her dad was not good at money. I wonder what kind of effect that has for the next generation as Isabel doesn't really seem to trust Ryan. I'm curious to see what Ryan's experience with money growing up was. Tell me about growing up. What did they say about money?

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Worker parents, but my dad was a small farmer in a rural community. My mom worked at a nursing home. She worked her way up into management eventually, but she started washing dishes. And yeah, they were very much, they took a different approach, though. I feel like Isabel began taking over, right? Taking over their finances. My parents, on the other hand, were maybe ashamed and they didn't pass any of that on. So anytime I brought up money, there'd be like anxiety around it.

• 1:15:40Ramit Sethi?

  Did you grow up in the Midwest?

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Sort of, I grew up in Canada, in the rural area.

• 1:15:44Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, wait. I don't, I don't have a metaphor for this is, because in the Midwest, there's a lot of guilt. There's a lot of shame. Is this common where you grew up?

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Yes, it is.

• 1:15:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:55Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Religious or no?

• 1:15:58Ramit Sethi?

  Just Canadian.

• 1:16:02Ramit Sethi?

  Rural Canadians love to feel guilty.

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  I think there's cultural overlap.

• 1:16:06Ramit Sethi?

  What is that? Explain that to me. I haven't heard this before.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, you know, the trope that it's sorry, eh?

• 1:16:13Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  Apologize for everything.

• 1:16:15Ramit Sethi?

  It's like that times a thousand.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, my parents, my mom in particular, she's always said that she's really proud that she was able to raise self-aware kids. You put others first.

• 1:16:25Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm. What's the implication?

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  That you're worthless than someone else.

• 1:16:30Ramit Sethi?

  Right, they come first.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:32Ramit Sethi?

  And she sees that as a virtue.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:35Ramit Sethi?

  And do you, how do you see that?

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  I feel like it's been plaguing me most of my life, if I'm honest.

• 1:16:41Ramit Sethi?

  Tell me.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Like, I've had problems kind of working on it. And I did say that I've seen a therapist, right? That's one thing I've worked on is being more sort of like in my career and my personal life, because I'm not very, which shows up with the money, I suppose. But yeah, I just, because of the way I was brought up, I was always taught that I need to take up less space. I need to not interrupt. I need to like always think about someone else's feelings before I do something, so.

• 1:17:10Ramit Sethi?

  Did you have any sisters? I'm guessing no.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  I have an older sister.

• 1:17:13Ramit Sethi?

  Really?

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:16Ramit Sethi?

  In your household as a kid, who was the more dominant parent? Mom or dad?

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Hmm, that's a tough one. Probably my mom most of the time in terms of like who made like financial decisions and things like that.

• 1:17:31Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And is your sister similarly, does she struggle with being assertive?

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  I would debate my sister's in a much worse place than I am with her.

• 1:17:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:42Ramit Sethi?

  Really? Like, it's been an affliction for her? It's caused trouble?

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:46Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, okay.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Like, say what you will, that she doesn't let me make my own decisions, Isabel, sometimes. But she has helped me, I would say, in some sense, and which is what fostered a good relationship early on with some of that. Like, I like the fact that she saw me as more than what I was and she pushed me towards becoming better in my field and things like that in ways I don't think would be possible without her. I don't think my sister had the same dynamic, so.

• 1:18:11Ramit Sethi?

  That's tough.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:12Ramit Sethi?

  That's really tough. It's tough to see the way that you grew up with your parents when you're a kid. You don't know any better. And that's the family that you're born into. And that's what's normal to you. And then as you grow up and you start to meet other folks and get in different circumstances like working, and you realize, wow, the lessons I learned were not very helpful. In fact, they're actually quite harmful. That's tough.

• 1:18:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:38Ramit Sethi?

  I find it quite amazing how candid you are, especially about your childhood, and how accessible it is. Like, you've clearly done work to be able to catalog the ways that you grew up. It's very impressive.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:57Ramit Sethi?

  Are your parents both alive?

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  They are.

• 1:18:59Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And are they together?

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  They are.

• 1:19:01Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How are they with money today?

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Very poor.

• 1:19:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. They make questionable financial decisions.

• 1:19:12Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, like what?

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  My dad, um, growing up, has been involved in pyramid schemes. My mom has been very much paycheck to paycheck most of her life up until retirement.

• 1:19:24Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Even in retirement, as they get money, they spend it kind of thing, like all of it. And they're just waiting for the next paycheck to come in to buy more.

• 1:19:32Ramit Sethi?

  They're dreamers.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess you could say that.

• 1:19:35Ramit Sethi?

  Waiting for the next, success is right around the corner, the next gig, the next deal.

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:40Ramit Sethi?

  It's all gonna take care of itself once we hit this next thing.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:45Ramit Sethi?

  How come you're not like that? Are you?

• 1:19:49Ramit Sethi?

  Whoa. Wow, interesting response. Izzy?

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  I think I daydream, but then I beat myself up about it and don't actually do it.

• 1:19:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't, I don't think he has the optimistic.

• 1:20:03Ramit Sethi?

  That's crazy.

• 1:20:03Speaker 00

  End point.

• 1:20:04Ramit Sethi?

  You're like a, you're like a mini dreamer, but then you're like, ah, this shit will never work.

• 1:20:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then, and then, and then he's done.

• 1:20:11Ramit Sethi?

  I've never met somebody like this.

• 1:20:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:13Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:20:15Speaker 00

  I mean, I actually think reflects a little bit some of your parents' dynamics because they, they tend to, to have this belief that like, oh, things aren't just going, like, they're just not gonna work out for us, or it's the curse of the family, or you know.

• 1:20:28Ramit Sethi?

  That's classic, poor people mentality.

• 1:20:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:30Ramit Sethi?

  Like, the world happens to us. We can't change anything about it. So we just are here to exist and deal with whatever comes our way.

• 1:20:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:38Ramit Sethi?

  Like, that's, that's called external locus of control, like, and actually, a lot of times, people who have grown up poor for generations, there's a lot of reasons they believe that. Like, things have not gone their way. And they have gotten screwed XYZ way. And so in a way, it's kind of a rational response, also not helpful.

• 1:20:56Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 1:20:58Ramit Sethi?

  So here, now their son, as recently as six months ago, making $150,000 a year living in Southern California, that's quite a difference.

• 1:21:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:07Ramit Sethi?

  How did you grapple with the changes in your socioeconomic status?

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  Not well, I don't think. Like, I don't feel like I, and it's good that I didn't in hindsight because we'd be in more trouble, but I don't feel like my spending necessarily reflected it. I always felt like my peers were spending more and things like that.

• 1:21:25Ramit Sethi?

  What messages about money did you grow up with that you are bringing to this relationship?

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  I don't feel like the messages I got about money growing up have really worked as me believing them so much as me rejecting what they do. Because I've seen how it negatively impacted things.

• 1:21:44Ramit Sethi?

  What about the part about assertiveness and putting other people ahead of you?

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Okay, that part definitely.

• 1:21:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:51Ramit Sethi?

  I didn't know the Canadian rural thing, okay? Thank you very much. I love learning more from my guests on this show. Ramit Sethi learns the most about stereotypes from around the world. Thank you to my guests. In all seriousness, I want you to notice that the way you grow up, especially some of these cultural mores, these beliefs that we have, can actually profoundly affect and harm kids as they become adults. If the idea is you've got to put someone else ahead of you, as Ryan aptly observed, that means you have to put yourself back. Just think about all the ways that comes out. School, careers, romantic relationships, money. So for parents watching the show,

• 1:22:33Ramit Sethi?

  think about the messages that you are consciously and unconsciously sending to your kids. Because 30 years from now, they might be exhibiting some of the same challenges that Ryan is here. I actually have a lot of compassion for both of them. They both grew up with money scarcity. They both grew up with a lot of money ideas that I typically see with poor families, which is, we don't plan further than a month ahead. How could we? We're just trying to get by this month. And so even though Ryan and Isabel are making way more than their parents ever did, they struggle to change their psychology. So actually, it's been really helpful to hear how they grew up. It gives me a new sense of why they're doing what they're doing. Now that I understand how both of them grew up with money,

• 1:23:19Ramit Sethi?

  let me see if I can figure out what to do about it. If you two had a magic wand and you could rechart, recast the way that you show up with money in this relationship, what would it be?

• 1:23:34Speaker 00

  I mean, if I had a magic wand, I would completely try to destroy what has become, it feels like a very cemented parent-child dynamic. I don't want...

• 1:23:42Ramit Sethi?

  What would you do instead? Tell me what you would do, not what you wouldn't do.

• 1:23:45Speaker 00

  What I would like to do instead is have regular communication about major decisions and try to have equal contributions.

• 1:23:53Ramit Sethi?

  Great. Even if one of you earns more?

• 1:23:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:23:56Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 1:23:56Speaker 00

  I mean, we've, we've, we've kind of gone back and forth on who has earned more over the lifetime of the, the relationship.

• 1:24:03Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, now let's go back and forth right now in terms of what would be in your, your magic wand vision. Go ahead, Ryan.

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think on both of us contributing equally to discussions, or it doesn't even have to be equal. I'd just like to have some say, like, maybe like, take one key area and move forward with that.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  I would say that, yeah, we are used to one of us making more or less than the other. Like, she said she had a free ride. I thought that was interesting because she didn't through all of grad school. I paid for a little bit of your grad school, too.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  Because I was working during that time period.

• 1:24:39Ramit Sethi?

  That's interesting.

• 1:24:39Speaker 00

  That's true. My tuition was covered, for what it's worth. I had a job, but just wasn't making as much as I did previously.

• 1:24:46Ramit Sethi?

  Once you tell it, Ryan, yeah, you better remember that big old check I wrote for you. That apartment wasn't free!

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  No, I don't...

• 1:24:52Ramit Sethi?

  Is that what you want to say?

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  No, that's not what I want to say.

• 1:24:54Ramit Sethi?

  Sorry, I don't mean to put words in your mouth.

• 1:24:55Speaker 00

  It was $650, though, which...

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  It was cheap. It was a Midwestern university, so...

• 1:25:02Ramit Sethi?

  What else would you want in this magic wand situation? It's got to be bigger than this, y'all. Like, I'm glad, I want you to have conversations where you contribute, but what else? It's a magic wand.

• 1:25:15Speaker 00

  I just want to point out that even in his magic wand scenario, he didn't say equal conversations.

• 1:25:19Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, he minimized. You do, you do the thing that many people do when they talk about their rich life. Be like, what's your rich life? They're like, well, one day, maybe I'd like to have like a beach house. It doesn't even have to be near the beach. It doesn't even have to have a roof. It doesn't even have to have a door. I just, I just want to be able to see sand somewhere on my floor. I go, what the fuck kind of fantasy is this? Rich life, not minimal shit life.

• 1:25:41Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Ryan?

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would actually like to... I'd like to be better educated, and I know that takes more action than anything. And I haven't necessarily put in the effort.

• 1:25:51Ramit Sethi?

  You want to be educated or you want to be fucking good?

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  I want to be, I want to be good at it. I want to excel at it.

• 1:25:56Ramit Sethi?

  Great, what else? Because I don't, like, I like education. I am educated, but I want to be good at what I do.

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe educated is the wrong word. I want to understand what I'm doing. I want to understand my actions, and I want to be able to make correct decisions.

• 1:26:12Ramit Sethi?

  Good, I agree. Go ahead.

• 1:26:14Speaker 00

  And I think, again, in a magic wand scenario, I would, I just want to not, not be as stressed or worried about things, but also not see him being stressed or worried about things that I don't feel are worrying.

• 1:26:27Ramit Sethi?

  What if he's stressed or worried? Then I want to be the one who's responsible for fixing it?

• 1:26:31Speaker 00

  No, I think that's, that's part of it, is being able to, you know, say, you know, hey, I'm worried about this, and try to understand or contextualize it in a bigger picture. Try to tackle, try to generate plans for maybe tackling that stress or worry instead of it just being this floating cloud that's following you everywhere. Like, I like to kind of...

• 1:26:52Ramit Sethi?

  No clouds, that's what I'm hearing.

• 1:26:53Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 1:26:54Ramit Sethi?

  No clouds. No clouds around laundry, no clouds around dishwasher, no clouds around money, no clouds around career, no clouds around the house in Mexico.

• 1:27:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:27:00Ramit Sethi?

  It's like, just clouds everywhere.

• 1:27:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:03Ramit Sethi?

  Let's fix that.

• 1:27:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's a lot of things that we feel like we circle and circle and don't, don't get anywhere on.

• 1:27:09Ramit Sethi?

  You're indecisive.

• 1:27:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:11Ramit Sethi?

  Y'all want to be decisive?

• 1:27:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:13Ramit Sethi?

  That's what I would put if I were you. Magic wand, we become a decisive couple. Magic wand, we actually like to talk about money. Magic wand, when one of us has a problem individually, the other will support them, but it's up to the partner to, it's up to them to solve their problem. They are an adult, they stand on their own two feet.

• 1:27:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:27:31Ramit Sethi?

  Because guess what? Y'all want to be solving your daughter's problems for the rest of her life?

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:36Ramit Sethi?

  No?

• 1:27:37Speaker 00

  No, I would like to have her set up to be financially literate and be able to move on in the world herself.

• 1:27:43Ramit Sethi?

  And emotionally literate?

• 1:27:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:27:44Ramit Sethi?

  And all of the above?

• 1:27:45Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 1:27:46Ramit Sethi?

  Well, she only does that if she sees mom and dad doing it.

• 1:27:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:50Ramit Sethi?

  Isabel and Ryan are not decisive, and I can tell it drives them crazy because it's driving me crazy. Pick a simple decision. Now we don't have to think about it anymore. Let's execute.

• 1:28:01Ramit Sethi?

  I know I'm supposed to be talking about feelings on this show once in a while, but sometimes I'm like, can we just not? Can we just get this shit done and move on? Do what I say or don't, I don't care, but I can't do this indecisive stuff anymore. My challenge is to get them to make a decision today. Because if they don't, they will walk out of here and be indecisive for the rest of their lives. Okay, so if you all, I love, I love the vision. Anything else in the rich life vision that you would want to add?

• 1:28:28Ramit Sethi?

  Travel?

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  I'd, I'd like to live with a guilt for every decision I make.

• 1:28:34Ramit Sethi?

  Good.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  As far as my purchases go.

• 1:28:36Ramit Sethi?

  How?

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  Like, even when I make my biggest purchases and I put months upon months into months into researching and going over, because I'm that type of person, I worry that I'm spending too much, or I worry about how she'll think, which isn't healthy. And she probably, she picks it up on it, and then she feels like it's too much on her, too.

• 1:28:56Ramit Sethi?

  Well, she also says stuff that makes you worry too, right?

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:00Ramit Sethi?

  Why'd you, we got $5,000 worth of coffee here.

• 1:29:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:05Ramit Sethi?

  Can I rephrase it? So I want to, for us to both be able to know what are the rules before we make a major purchase, both of us. And once we make that purchase...

• 1:29:17Speaker 00

  It's done.

• 1:29:17Ramit Sethi?

  It's done. We only feel joy about it.

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:20Ramit Sethi?

  I want us to be a team. I never want us to be jabbing at each other. I want us to be supporting each other. Sure, we may have to have difficult conversations, that's normal. But I don't want to be jabbing. Do you see the jabbing that we've even talked about today?

• 1:29:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:40Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, do you like it?

• 1:29:41Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:29:42Ramit Sethi?

  No, fucking sucks.

• 1:29:43Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:29:44Ramit Sethi?

  I don't actually, I, I've heard you do it a couple of times in the examples. I don't even think you enjoy it.

• 1:29:51Speaker 00

  No, I don't. I don't, but then it comes out, and then I, I guess I don't think about it. And that's, that's one of the things I was saying earlier, like,

• 1:29:59Speaker 00

  to hear, to hear my words coming back out, out of his mouth is like, oh, shit.

• 1:30:03Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, it's, it's physically painful for you. I saw you.

• 1:30:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:06Ramit Sethi?

  And, and actually, I don't mind that. Like, yeah, this shit is hard. It's hard to hear. That's why you were doing all these games and digressions and diversions. Our mind is amazing. It will do anything to avoid pain. But sometimes that pain is telling us, oh, my God, this is not right. This is where getting help in comes from. This is where becoming a team comes from. All right, so what's the rich life vision?

• 1:30:31Speaker 00

  I mean, I had mentioned earlier in, you know, my, our saving strategy right now is non-existent, but I would like to keep continuing to travel. I just don't know how to do that yet.

• 1:30:40Ramit Sethi?

  How many times a year?

• 1:30:42Speaker 00

  Previously, and the before times.

• 1:30:44Ramit Sethi?

  No, I just want an answer to my question.

• 1:30:46Speaker 00

  Once, once.

• 1:30:47Ramit Sethi?

  Once a year?

• 1:30:48Speaker 00

  One international trip a year.

• 1:30:49Ramit Sethi?

  Can part of your rich life be y'all answer questions directly?

• 1:30:51Speaker 00

  No!

• 1:30:52Ramit Sethi?

  Like, what the?

• 1:30:55Ramit Sethi?

  Because guess what? Remember how you said you spin?

• 1:30:57Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 1:30:58Ramit Sethi?

  You are doing it right now.

• 1:31:00Speaker 00

  We're spinning out right now.

• 1:31:01Ramit Sethi?

  What we do here is what we do everywhere.

• 1:31:04Speaker 00

  So in, in my rich life vision, I would like to travel internationally once a year.

• 1:31:08Ramit Sethi?

  Great.

• 1:31:09Speaker 00

  And I, yeah, for myself and for my daughter. I love taking her places.

• 1:31:13Ramit Sethi?

  And Ryan, are you going or no?

• 1:31:14Speaker 00

  He's welcome to come if he wants, I suppose.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  Usually I go, yeah.

• 1:31:18Ramit Sethi?

  What, what the fuck?

• 1:31:19Speaker 00

  No, we're, we're joking. That was a joke. He always comes.

• 1:31:22Ramit Sethi?

  I don't like that joke.

• 1:31:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. That's fair. I sometimes don't know that you want to go where I'm suggesting going.

• 1:31:31Speaker 01

  I get that. I think we have different, like, goals. Like, I like day-to-day conveniences more than you do. Like, you won't spend anything on yourself, and then you'll just plan a big trip.

• 1:31:40Ramit Sethi?

  I'm sorry, Ryan, do you like when your wife jokes about going on vacation without you?

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  She just did recently, but it wasn't a vacation. It was a visit family.

• 1:31:48Ramit Sethi?

  Not my question. Do you enjoy when your wife jokes about going on vacation without you?

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:31:55Ramit Sethi?

  Tell her that.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  I don't like when you talk about going on vacation without me.

• 1:32:03Ramit Sethi?

  So please.

• 1:32:03Speaker 00

  That's fair, and I should not have done that.

• 1:32:05Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, thank you.

• 1:32:07Speaker 00

  I'm sorry.

• 1:32:09Ramit Sethi?

  I don't mind these things come up here. I don't mind it.

• 1:32:11Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:32:12Ramit Sethi?

  But I am glad because I think you may be realizing the amount of layers to unpack here, and I think you may be realizing you cannot do it on your own.

• 1:32:24Ramit Sethi?

  That, that's not a normal type of joke or a comment to make. And the fact that you know that Ryan struggles with being assertive.

• 1:32:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:32:35Ramit Sethi?

  Is like a real problem, actually an opportunity for the two of you to work on it. For Ryan to say like, hey, wait a minute, that like felt weird. Cause if my wife made a joke about me not, I'm welcome to go. Like, no, what, what is this? Where's this coming from? And then for you to not say those kinds of things, actually say like more positive things. I would love for both of us to do it. Any thoughts going through your head right now, Ryan?

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:33:00Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, let me know if there's anything you want to say. I want to make sure that your voice is heard today.

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  For sure. Thanks.

• 1:33:07Ramit Sethi?

  How come I haven't cracked a smile in the last 15 minutes? I'm supposed to be talking about their rich lives. Give me something. A pet, something with their daughter, anything. No. Money to them is just an endless checklist of things they need to do. One of the questions I asked Isabel was, what if you ever just took a couple hours to watch a movie? And before I could even finish asking the question, she said, oh, I, I could never. I could never spend two hours watching a movie. Many people, especially kids of immigrants, know what this is like because what you saw your parents model was, you need to be productive. Why aren't you waking up? It's Saturday? Okay, you slept until 8:30 AM, time to get up. Did you study for your SATs?

• 1:33:51Ramit Sethi?

  Did you do come on and on and on and on? And so you don't actually build the skill of simple enjoyment. In fact, if anything, you are told, because you are not being productive, you are wasting your time. So you accomplish things and you grow up and you go to a good school and you make a lot of money and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And just like so many guests on this podcast, you do everything except learn how to live a rich life. That is what I'm trying to change for Isabel and Ryan. I want to pull back up the numbers in a second, but before we get to those, we need to make a decision. Because you had a lot of clouds floating. What's the most important cloud that you need to push through right now?

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  We need to

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  put in savings for retirement or.

• 1:34:44Ramit Sethi?

  You do? How do you know?

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  Because there are none.

• 1:34:48Ramit Sethi?

  What do you mean? Your retirement has $175,000 and your wife has a pension.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:58Ramit Sethi?

  Do you even need to do that? Is that the first decision we need to make?

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  It's supposed to not the very first one.

• 1:35:05Ramit Sethi?

  Let's do the first one. What is it? I think it's the job.

• 1:35:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:10Ramit Sethi?

  What do you want to do about it?

• 1:35:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I mean, I, that's, that's the first answer that came into my mind, but I'm also trying not to make that decision for him.

• 1:35:17Ramit Sethi?

  Good.

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with that. I feel like I've already like tried over the past few weeks to pivot to more.

• 1:35:25Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't want to say more realistic because I don't know if they are more realistic to pivot, but more accessible options.

• 1:35:31Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so what do you want to do?

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  I'm looking for what I can find that would reflect my skill set and pay reasonably in my area that would give me better work-life balance.

• 1:35:43Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Well, I hope it works out, but if what you've been doing for the last month or two is not working, what do you want to do?

• 1:35:50Ramit Sethi?

  What are your options? Lay them out on the table.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  My options would be to be a stay-at-home dad for a little while.

• 1:35:56Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  I could take something dramatically below my skill set. I don't know if that necessarily makes sense for earning.

• 1:36:02Ramit Sethi?

  Don't tell me what's wrong. Just tell me the options. You could cut your pay. What else?

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  I could, what else could I do? I could invest in education to further my.

• 1:36:15Ramit Sethi?

  Maybe grad school or something like that. Okay, good. What else?

• 1:36:19Speaker 01

  Um, I could.

• 1:36:24Speaker 01

  I could invest in my previous business, which was going a little bit, but fell apart a little bit at the end.

• 1:36:29Ramit Sethi?

  No. Oh, well, it's an option four.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:31Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  Well, it's just an option. I'm not saying it's the best option.

• 1:36:33Ramit Sethi?

  I like that. You're right. I stand corrected. That's option four. What else?

• 1:36:37Speaker 01

  Okay. I could.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  I could look at a new personal development venture or a new business venture.

• 1:36:51Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  It's related more to my skills.

• 1:36:52Ramit Sethi?

  All those business, whether old business or new business.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:56Ramit Sethi?

  Ask your wife if she's got any options that you haven't considered.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  Do you have any options?

• 1:37:00Speaker 00

  I mean, the only one on that list that I don't think either of us has considered is taking some other kind of job. Right? Like a retail job or.

• 1:37:07Ramit Sethi?

  I think you mentioned taking a dramatic pay cut.

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I said.

• 1:37:10Speaker 00

  Well, I thought you, I thought that meant like.

• 1:37:12Ramit Sethi?

  Could be working at Target, could be working, whatever. That's a huge pay cut. I think it all falls under that.

• 1:37:17Speaker 00

  Okay, that's fair.

• 1:37:18Ramit Sethi?

  Maybe one other option I might mention is you could get help with your job search.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:24Ramit Sethi?

  You could hire a coach, you could.

• 1:37:27Speaker 01

  Career coach.

• 1:37:27Ramit Sethi?

  Dude, yeah, there's lots of ways you could get into networking groups, et cetera. So we've got quite a few options here. I love how diverse they are. In fact, one of them, like your options were so unusual that all of us were like, whoa. At some point, and I think that was really cool. How are you going to make this decision?

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  I think I need to look at the pros and the cons of each decision. I need to discuss them with her. And I need to kind of weigh that against one another.

• 1:37:57Ramit Sethi?

  Can I, can I suggest like, would it be possible for the two of you to make this decision in 60 seconds?

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:38:04Ramit Sethi?

  No?

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 1:38:07Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Do you think it's possible, Isabel?

• 1:38:10Speaker 00

  I think it would be possible to say yes and to stick with an alternative option for six weeks or eight weeks and reevaluate.

• 1:38:17Ramit Sethi?

  I think the fundamental question here is, are you going to be a stay-at-home dad? Or are you going to find a job that makes over $50,000?

• 1:38:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:38:24Ramit Sethi?

  Which one?

• 1:38:27Speaker 01

  Probably find a job, I think. I don't want to see her continue to struggle or take on more responsibility than she can.

• 1:38:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How long are you going to continue your job search the way it is before you change something?

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  I think it needs to change.

• 1:38:41Ramit Sethi?

  Great. You're going to change it immediately. What are you going to do first?

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  I'll look into options. I'll look into options for coaching. I will look into options that are maybe a little bit more outside of the box.

• 1:38:53Ramit Sethi?

  Well, let's pick one at a time.

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:38:54Ramit Sethi?

  Do you want to expand your job search to jobs that pay $50,000 to $70,000 a year?

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  Yes, probably.

• 1:39:04Ramit Sethi?

  It's yes or no?

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  I'd say probably seven, 60 to 70.

• 1:39:10Ramit Sethi?

  60 to 70. You want to expand by $10,000. Okay, great. You're currently looking at $70,000 jobs. You want to expand it to $60,000 jobs.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:39:18Ramit Sethi?

  Great. Works for me. How long you want to give that?

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  Uh, the way things are moving right now, probably a month.

• 1:39:25Ramit Sethi?

  A month. All right. And after that?

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  After that, I want to look into ways that I could move into a related career that requires different skillsets that I could pick up easily and bridge my existing experience into.

• 1:39:41Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, Isabel, any feedback?

• 1:39:43Speaker 00

  I mean, I think, I think that sounds like a good plan. Honestly, one of the things that I've been feeling lately is that we've been stuck in this cloudy holding pattern. Like if you were to just make that as a decision and go for it, then we could just go for it. Or like if you're thinking about doing additional certifications and it's going to require whatever number of hours a week, just knowing that and committing and like, I'm fully behind that.

• 1:40:07Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, cool.

• 1:40:07Speaker 00

  Do what we need to.

• 1:40:08Ramit Sethi?

  You know, one thing I noticed is that when there is a lack of clarity around money, around relational agreements, then like sometimes the worst of us comes out. So like, for example, we have a rule in our relationship. Let's just say anything below 50 bucks, we're not going to ask each other about. So therefore if you text me about ice cream scoops, I'm not answering. And I'm also not saying, why'd you get that?

• 1:40:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:40:29Ramit Sethi?

  Whatever. It, I'm not concerned. We don't, we already have an agreement.

• 1:40:35Ramit Sethi?

  If it's not clear about how long is this job search going to go on before changing and what's going to happen next? Then we start to become like very over, looking over the person's shoulder and like, I don't know. We don't want that. We want clear sets of rules. If it were me, this is what I would do. I would say, number one, starting immediately, I'm expanding my job search to jobs over $60,000. Number two, if after one week I am not immediately seeing interviews, I'm getting a career coach. Now, we need to talk about how much can I, we afford, et cetera, but this obviously is not working. I've sent hundreds of applications. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Need to get a coach. Number three, if after, I'll go all the way down to $50,000, but after that, I'm going to be a stay-at-home dad for at least two years.

• 1:41:21Ramit Sethi?

  And then I will reevaluate. Like, that's how we make decisions. Boom. And then I go, Isabel, are you cool with that? And she goes, yeah, but here's what we would do as a stay-at-home dad. This is my expectation. What do you think? Boom. What are you noticing, Ryan? I can see you taking this in.

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  It's, it's more thought out. It's a goal-oriented with timelines. It's more like an OKR than anything.

• 1:41:42Ramit Sethi?

  Exactly. Bring the OKRs into the relationship. I know people say that's fucking weird. Why use Notion or what? I don't care. Make it systemic.

• 1:41:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:41:50Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Should we look at the CSP?

• 1:41:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:41:52Ramit Sethi?

  All right. What do we need to change on this? Because on one hand, we're at 83%. On the other hand, you say it's okay. There's a couple of things that jump out to me right away. What do you want to do?

• 1:42:04Ramit Sethi?

  Isabel?

• 1:42:05Speaker 00

  I think that I need to, well, I think that we need to solidify what we're doing with savings and investments first. Just because right now it's this floating

• 1:42:16Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:16Speaker 00

  nebula of something.

• 1:42:17Ramit Sethi?

  Well, what are you going to do?

• 1:42:18Speaker 00

  I, I would like to add some post-tax retirement savings to his accounts specifically. And I don't know how much that is, but I am of the mindset that I would like to set up at least something now so that when he gets a job or if he gets more income, then we can redirect there.

• 1:42:33Ramit Sethi?

  Where's the money coming from?

• 1:42:35Speaker 00

  Right now, it's going to have to come from guilt-free spending. I don't think there's any other way of getting that out. And we don't spend that much every month. I know that for.

• 1:42:43Ramit Sethi?

  Isabel, we're talking numbers now.

• 1:42:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:42:45Ramit Sethi?

  I want less stories. I want you to tell me the numbers to move around.

• 1:42:50Speaker 00

  Can I add at least 150?

• 1:42:52Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:42:52Speaker 00

  To his post.

• 1:42:53Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, we'll do that. That's going to come from guilt-free spending.

• 1:42:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:42:56Ramit Sethi?

  And we will put it up here. Okay. Ryan, you wanted to add something?

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Um, I was just saying that in terms of investments, I don't mind dipping a little bit into savings, nothing dramatic. But if it's like under like 10,000, I wouldn't be super concerned.

• 1:43:13Ramit Sethi?

  You would dip into savings for what purpose?

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  For starting investments if they have the potential to

• 1:43:20Speaker 01

  to earn.

• 1:43:20Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:43:22Ramit Sethi?

  What else?

• 1:43:25Speaker 00

  I think when I, when I look at the savings, I want to be mindful of setting aside for vacation. So I'm trying to think if I keep something to under 3,000 divided by 12, what like 250 and what? See then, then we're.

• 1:43:41Ramit Sethi?

  So let me point out what's happening right now.

• 1:43:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, my brain is.

• 1:43:44Ramit Sethi?

  You're, you're down to 13% on guilt free spending, which is okay.

• 1:43:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:48Ramit Sethi?

  But if Ryan is a stay at home dad, there's not really money for.

• 1:43:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:54Ramit Sethi?

  Vacation.

• 1:43:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:56Speaker 00

  I know that's, that's what I'm looking at as I look at.

• 1:43:58Speaker 01

  I think unfortunately there's no way around it. I think it's a condo.

• 1:44:01Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, talk about the condo. What do you want to do?

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  I think it needs to be looked at as either a rental property or we need to get more assertive with your mom as far as moving in.

• 1:44:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:12Ramit Sethi?

  What's.

• 1:44:13Speaker 00

  I'm in denial about that.

• 1:44:14Ramit Sethi?

  What's the, what's the Spanish word for like Ryan, but like Ryan who's got a lot of swag? Cause like Nico Suave is on the fucking prowl right now. What just happened? He's like, yeah, we need to do this or do that. It needs to happen fucking now. I was like, what? Who is this guy?

• 1:44:32Speaker 00

  He has feelings about the condo.

• 1:44:34Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. And I like it. Listen to what he's saying. Ryan, speak up.

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. I just think that it either needs to be a rental opportunity and we temporarily move her in. Maybe she splits some time in Mexico a little bit.

• 1:44:46Ramit Sethi?

  Look at her.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  Or she splits some time in Mexico a little bit and she stays with us. Or we just need to get more assertive about having her look into options for moving.

• 1:44:55Ramit Sethi?

  Who's we, we need to get assertive? Is it your mom?

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  It's, it's Isabel.

• 1:45:01Ramit Sethi?

  Tell her, tell her, I need you to.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  I need you to be more assertive with your mom about moving the property in Mexico to pay off the condo.

• 1:45:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:12Ramit Sethi?

  Isabel?

• 1:45:15Speaker 00

  So I have a very hard time with that, but I also think it's fair. And I know that at the end of the day, that's what alleviate finances. So can we set a timeline, say something like, if there hasn't been any movement in six months, she moves in. And that's what it is.

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:45:32Speaker 00

  Cause we, I mean, we need, you know.

• 1:45:36Ramit Sethi?

  Right.

• 1:45:36Speaker 00

  Give her time to move it. And if not, this is what's.

• 1:45:39Speaker 01

  Right. If there's no movement as far as me finding employment or her.

• 1:45:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  Then yeah. I think if I'm going to be a stay at home dad, we can't have the condo effectively.

• 1:45:48Ramit Sethi?

  What if you get a job?

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  We could probably make it work then financially until she could sort out her feelings with the property.

• 1:45:59Ramit Sethi?

  I, I like this conversation. I'd like to be a little bit more directive because you all are letting your mom's feelings, which while I respect the dynamic.

• 1:46:10Ramit Sethi?

  You have 83% fixed costs.

• 1:46:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:12Ramit Sethi?

  You have no savings, no money for vacation. Your guilt free spending is getting chipped away.

• 1:46:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:17Ramit Sethi?

  And if one of you loses your job again, we got problems. So I don't know. I'm not satisfied with this six months. See how she feels. If I get a job, it's fine. Uh-uh. We have talked a lot about Ryan being assertive. Isabel, what about you?

• 1:46:32Speaker 00

  In terms of with my mom?

• 1:46:33Ramit Sethi?

  Yes.

• 1:46:35Speaker 00

  I have feelings there. I know I need to be more assertive with her, but I, I struggle with stressing her out. So I'll just carry it.

• 1:46:44Ramit Sethi?

  Maybe your daughter will do the same thing one day when she needs to talk to you.

• 1:46:49Ramit Sethi?

  Mom is always stressed out, so I better not bring this up.

• 1:46:54Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think Isabel? Is it time to change this?

• 1:46:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, probably.

• 1:47:00Ramit Sethi?

  Your mom is not a fragile flower. Your mom worked seven months a year, took care of the family finances, handled a lot of things. Your mom is not a fragile flower. Don't treat her like that.

• 1:47:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's very hard to not see her in that way.

• 1:47:16Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:47:19Ramit Sethi?

  How are you feeling here in this? Challenging.

• 1:47:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:47:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I keep feeling like I can reason myself out of it, but I also know that numerically speaking, that's just not what the story is.

• 1:47:33Ramit Sethi?

  That's right. And it's not even just about the numbers. It's, we can work with the numbers one way or another. It's actually the two of you as a unit saying, what kind of life do we want to live?

• 1:47:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:47:54Ramit Sethi?

  And notice it's actually, this is the moment Ryan, who has struggled with being assertive, who's in the dynamic of the parent child. You Isabel, struggling with perfectionism, pointing back at him frequently. Why don't you do this? How many days until that? But now we have a moment where Ryan is actually quite assertive.

• 1:48:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:18Ramit Sethi?

  This what you need to do? And what, what is your mind telling you in the back of your head?

• 1:48:25Speaker 00

  Like, I don't know if that's the choice I want to make.

• 1:48:27Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:29Ramit Sethi?

  So actually both of you have a lot of compassion for each other. This shit is not easy.

• 1:48:34Ramit Sethi?

  Nobody wants to be told by somebody, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. But actually, what do the two of you want?

• 1:48:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:42Ramit Sethi?

  On this one, I happen to agree with Ryan. Think there's probably a way to say it, you know, hey, we need to, of course we love your mom. Of course we want to help her out. Of course we are fortunate. We can do that. We also need to start putting ourselves first. That means the way we talk to each other. That means the way we make decisions together. And that even means something as simple as taking vacations together.

• 1:49:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:49:10Ramit Sethi?

  I want to go with you and I want you to want to go with me. I want to put money aside so that we can do that. I also have a hobby. I want to continue doing that hobby. Right now, we can't do these things when we are paying this much. And it's not that your mom is unable to, it's that she won't sell the house.

• 1:49:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:49:28Ramit Sethi?

  So I need you to do.

• 1:49:29Speaker 00

  She's dragging her feet.

• 1:49:30Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:31Speaker 00

  She's been dragging her feet for two years.

• 1:49:33Ramit Sethi?

  So, so Ryan, you're gonna say something like Isabel, I need you to make this happen. And I know it's difficult for you. You've never done this in your role. If you can't do it on your own, get help. But I need you to make this happen.

• 1:49:45Speaker 01

  I need you to have a conversation with your mom. And I know that it's tricky and I know how much the property means to her and how much it meant to your dad. But I also feel like she said herself that she's happier when she's here. And I think it would mean more to her long-term to have the condo.

• 1:50:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:50:04Ramit Sethi?

  Damn.

• 1:50:07Ramit Sethi?

  Honestly,

• 1:50:10Ramit Sethi?

  the two of you are really like, you're doing the hard work right now.

• 1:50:16Ramit Sethi?

  How are you feeling Isabel?

• 1:50:18Speaker 00

  I'm sad.

• 1:50:20Ramit Sethi?

  How come?

• 1:50:23Speaker 00

  I mean, it's this whole, right?

• 1:50:28Speaker 00

  It's this whole being a person in.

• 1:50:32Ramit Sethi?

  It's okay. Take your time. We're in no rush.

• 1:50:40Speaker 00

  Sorry. It's this, it's this whole, you know, feeling like, and I just heard it described the other day and I hadn't thought about it that way. But being in a sandwich generation where I'm the caretaker for a young child, but also the caretaker for a parent.

• 1:50:55Speaker 00

  And it's just a hard balance. Cause I know what is, what I would like to do for one is not what is best for the other or what is best for ourselves. So it's just a hard decision.

• 1:51:06Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:06Speaker 00

  To feel like I'm making.

• 1:51:10Speaker 00

  And she was also so happy when she got that condo.

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  I think, I don't have a strong feelings about it, obviously, but I do think a lot of what's going on of hers is just that she had planned on retiring in that house with your dad. So she's dragging her feet on it more before he passed.

• 1:51:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. It was their dream to.

• 1:51:30Speaker 01

  I understand that.

• 1:51:31Ramit Sethi?

  There's a lot in that house, I'm sure. It's not just a house. It's not just a financial transaction.

• 1:51:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:39Ramit Sethi?

  So there's a way to honor that. There's a way to acknowledge that. There's a way to talk to your mom about that. You may not know how yourself. But there are plenty of people who can help you do that.

• 1:51:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:51:49Ramit Sethi?

  But the fact of the matter is that the two of you, right now are disconnected about money. And this is one of the big levers. This is one of the biggest numbers on here.

• 1:51:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:00Ramit Sethi?

  Let's fast forward for a second and pretend it's 25 years from now. And I meet your daughter and she comes on this podcast. And I ask her, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up? If nothing changed after today, what would she say?

• 1:52:19Speaker 00

  She would probably say something similar to what I said earlier.

• 1:52:22Ramit Sethi?

  Almost identical.

• 1:52:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:24Ramit Sethi?

  Mom took on the responsibilities. Dad was kind of whatever. If he made money, he brought it and gave the paycheck. All of that.

• 1:52:32Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 1:52:34Ramit Sethi?

  Now let's say you walk out of here and you make some big, bold decisions.

• 1:52:39Ramit Sethi?

  25 years from now, what would she say?

• 1:52:41Speaker 00

  I mean, I, I would like her to say that both of her, like, hey, you know, when you're in a partnership, both people contribute to the financial decisions in a partnership. And I would also like her to see money as a, as a mechanism for a rich life or for, you know, something that's positive. That allows you to do what you enjoy doing and what you find value and passion in doing as opposed to what I feel like I grew up with, which was let's, you know, pay the bills and get everything done and try to save up for the next thing. And so, yeah, you're.

• 1:53:15Ramit Sethi?

  That's what your CSP is right now.

• 1:53:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:18Ramit Sethi?

  So it's okay, but it's just treading water forever.

• 1:53:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Right now we're in a treading water.

• 1:53:25Ramit Sethi?

  What if she said to me, she came here and she said to me, um, I remember my parents making a big change right around when I was five. And I remember this because they sat me down and we talked about it. We played a game together. We had a little pie chart and we put money in this and that. I remember as I got older, I started to understand that my mom, Isabel, had to talk to her mom and she had to have a really uncomfortable set of conversations. They were difficult, but actually it ended up being good for both of them.

• 1:53:57Ramit Sethi?

  And I remember my dad actually, he participated in money, just like my mom. They would talk about it. They would plan on where they were going to go. He had this hobby of coffee stuff. He used to spend money on it, but he always said, this coffee is what's important to me. This is part of my rich life. Yours is going to be different than, than mine.

• 1:54:18Ramit Sethi?

  What about that?

• 1:54:19Speaker 00

  I mean, that would make me very happy.

• 1:54:21Ramit Sethi?

  This is how you do it. This is how you do it. You have these conversations now and then you teach your daughter. You don't shield her from money. It's not meant to be shielded from it's not a monster. You talk about it with her, age appropriate, but you get her involved. You let her know, this is how I grew up with my mom. This is what my mom did.

• 1:54:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:54:39Ramit Sethi?

  Ryan, same for you.

• 1:54:42Ramit Sethi?

  I struggled being assertive. It wasn't working for me. It actually caused a lot of fights when you were young, tell your daughter. And so I had to change that. I went to this guy, saw his podcast, got a therapist, got a coach, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And like, it really changed things. What do you think?

• 1:55:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's, it's probably the best move, definitely the best move to have her see me as more involved so she doesn't have a similar dynamic in the future.

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  I also already know that I want her to see us both in the same way.

• 1:55:19Ramit Sethi?

  As a team?

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, as a team.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  As is, I'm the one she approaches for secondary things a lot of the time. She's noticed the dynamic already. Like if she wants to buy something, she will ask mommy and not daddy.

• 1:55:32Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 1:55:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:33Speaker 01

  Even when I was the one making more, so it's not even reset.

• 1:55:36Ramit Sethi?

  Wow. Kids are smart.

• 1:55:39Speaker 00

  She already knows who to ask for certain things.

• 1:55:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:43Ramit Sethi?

  Kids are smart.

• 1:55:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:45Ramit Sethi?

  Without making big, bold changes, just glide right into recreating your childhood.

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:55:51Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:55:54Ramit Sethi?

  What do you want to do on the CSP?

• 1:55:58Ramit Sethi?

  We can project this six months out. What's going to happen with the condo?

• 1:56:03Speaker 00

  So

• 1:56:05Speaker 00

  if we project six months out, I think we, in either case, we zero it out.

• 1:56:10Ramit Sethi?

  Great. Love that decisiveness. Zero, holy, fixed costs just dropped to 66%.

• 1:56:16Speaker 00

  I know, and I don't want to admit that.

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:56:19Ramit Sethi?

  Next.

• 1:56:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:20Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah.

• 1:56:21Ramit Sethi?

  We now have $2,765 a month in guilt free spending. What do y'all want to do?

• 1:56:29Speaker 00

  I'll defer to you.

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  And well, I think we could probably reduce that to 20%, put the 10% in savings.

• 1:56:36Ramit Sethi?

  Love it. Fantastic. Let's do it. I'm going to add another, let's just say 700 bucks. Let's add even more. Let's add 800 bucks to investing. Okay. Yeah, you're down to 21%. Y'all, that's it? That's life for the rest of life?

• 1:56:51Speaker 01

  We can put the rest in.

• 1:56:52Speaker 00

  No, I need to go on vacation.

• 1:56:54Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, okay. You want to put it there?

• 1:56:56Speaker 00

  Well,

• 1:56:58Speaker 00

  same now. I always get stuck in reverse mathing how much I would need to go. So say 350.

• 1:57:03Ramit Sethi?

  350 a month? So like roughly 5,000 a year, a little lower than that?

• 1:57:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:08Ramit Sethi?

  All right.

• 1:57:09Speaker 00

  Gifts we honestly do out of guilt free spending, I would argue.

• 1:57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:57:15Speaker 00

  But then I don't know what's.

• 1:57:17Ramit Sethi?

  I mean,

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  Home repairs.

• 1:57:18Ramit Sethi?

  I might question if you need to put $250 a month away, but

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:23Ramit Sethi?

  You know, it's neither here nor there. Usually I like to see couples knowing their own retirement is dialed in before they start putting 250. 250 a month at a young age can actually be quite consequential.

• 1:57:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:33Ramit Sethi?

  So just to zero it out, just to show you what would happen. All right?

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  I would question not having anything going into the long-term emergency funds for home repairs.

• 1:57:41Ramit Sethi?

  Oh yeah, good idea.

• 1:57:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:43Ramit Sethi?

  Fine. Let's put it there. Home repairs, 250. That's smart. Boom. So now you're saving. Yeah, I agree. Well, let's keep in mind your savings account is $68,000, which is

• 1:57:57Ramit Sethi?

  10 months or so, 11 months of savings. That's solid. That's nice.

• 1:58:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:02Ramit Sethi?

  That's nice. And by the way, this is all on one income.

• 1:58:06Ramit Sethi?

  You want to do another income? Watch this. Let's say 3,500 post-tax. I'm being conservative here. Your fixed costs dropped to 47% and now you have $5,000 left per month.

• 1:58:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, which was that, I mean, three, yeah, that's like a 50, $60,000 job.

• 1:58:25Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:27Ramit Sethi?

  So what does that tell you? We could take the CSP numbers off screen. What does that tell you?

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  It tells me there's flexibility in what I want to do. Like I don't even have to necessarily pick. I could probably be comfortable if we got rid of the condo, just taking a part-time job and then being the father figure the rest of the time.

• 1:58:42Ramit Sethi?

  Exactly. Yes. You have options. Seeing the numbers helps you see it, but what I'm seeing, what I just saw right now is like the clouds just cleared. Holy shit. I could work part-time. I could do 50K jobs, 60K job. I could be a stay-at-home dad, whatever.

• 1:58:59Speaker 00

  There's a lot of options.

• 1:59:00Ramit Sethi?

  There's a lot of, the two of you now get to decide clearly.

• 1:59:05Ramit Sethi?

  And have we thought about how much you're actually going to have in the future?

• 1:59:09Speaker 00

  I don't know a number. Honestly, I know what percentage of my salary it'll be for pension.

• 1:59:13Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:59:14Speaker 00

  I have no idea for him.

• 1:59:15Ramit Sethi?

  What percentage is that for you?

• 1:59:18Speaker 00

  It's about, it's like 68 to 70% of what my salary will be at retirement age.

• 1:59:25Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Do you know what that salary will be ballpark?

• 1:59:29Speaker 00

  It's probably going to be around 150, 160 at least.

• 1:59:34Ramit Sethi?

  160?

• 1:59:34Speaker 00

  But it's hard to, it's, yeah.

• 1:59:36Ramit Sethi?

  Conservatively?

• 1:59:36Speaker 00

  It's conservative. Yeah, that's very conservative.

• 1:59:38Ramit Sethi?

  So 70% of $160,000 will be your pension. Okay.

• 1:59:43Speaker 00

  Without including social security or anything else like the 403BM, making small contributions too.

• 1:59:49Ramit Sethi?

  I ran some quick calculations for you back of the napkin. So they include your pension, 70% at 160K, which I think is conservative. They include a $3,500 a month net pay for you, Ryan, which I think is conservative as well. And to be able to make those investment contributions that we talked about. How much do you think you would make in income when you retire? Right now you make $151,000 a year.

• 2:00:15Speaker 00

  I mean, my own back of the napkin math wants to say somewhere between 1 to 120.

• 2:00:21Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, Ryan?

• 2:00:23Speaker 01

  I want to say 150.

• 2:00:26Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. According to our calculations, $187,000 a year.

• 2:00:33Ramit Sethi?

  What do you make of that?

• 2:00:35Speaker 00

  I mean, that means that I can only calculate what I know for mine, I think. I don't, I don't have any idea what, what his looks like.

• 2:00:44Speaker 01

  I do think that might be conservative for me too, based on my previous income.

• 2:00:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, because you were previously putting in a lot more. Yeah.

• 2:00:52Ramit Sethi?

  So what does it mean? The fact that it's 187,000, probably more.

• 2:00:57Speaker 00

  I mean, I see it as we're going to continue to be comfortable in retirement. I don't have to worry about it.

• 2:01:04Speaker 00

  We'll be at or above our current living, well, inflation, but.

• 2:01:08Ramit Sethi?

  No, this factors inflation in already.

• 2:01:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I think we'd be at our, at our current lifestyle.

• 2:01:14Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 2:01:15Speaker 00

  Which is comforting. I think.

• 2:01:19Ramit Sethi?

  Ryan?

• 2:01:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's comforting. I think that, I agree with that. That's, that's a comfortable number.

• 2:01:26Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Does it mean that you need to take on extra work in summers?

• 2:01:30Speaker 00

  Probably not.

• 2:01:31Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. So let go of that.

• 2:01:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:36Ramit Sethi?

  What else does it mean you do not have to do?

• 2:01:38Speaker 00

  I mean, it probably means that I don't have to be doing, it's not just the, the teaching in the summers thing. I pick up a lot of extra work, just, just here and there and everywhere because there's opportunities for it. And I tend to be the person of like, well, if I could make this extra thousand, I'll do it.

• 2:01:55Ramit Sethi?

  That's because of how your parents grew up.

• 2:01:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:01:58Ramit Sethi?

  And you are still following in their footsteps. In, which can be good, but it's also destructive. It's not healthy to be following a rulebook from 45 years ago that doesn't apply to you today.

• 2:02:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:02:10Ramit Sethi?

  So you actually get the freedom.

• 2:02:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, of time.

• 2:02:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, time and making those decisions.

• 2:02:18Ramit Sethi?

  Can you imagine just sitting and watching?

• 2:02:20Speaker 00

  No, absolutely not. No. I have, I have a very hard time doing that. If I'm not actively doing something, I feel like I'm wasting my time.

• 2:02:28Ramit Sethi?

  Gosh, I wonder where that came from.

• 2:02:32Speaker 00

  My friends and I call it toxic productivity.

• 2:02:34Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:34Speaker 00

  It's, and I, yeah.

• 2:02:37Ramit Sethi?

  The only thing that has to, absolutely has to happen is what? What needs to change with your CSP?

• 2:02:45Speaker 00

  That condo.

• 2:02:46Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:02:47Ramit Sethi?

  That's the one thing.

• 2:02:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:02:50Ramit Sethi?

  So wow. What, what I'm seeing here is each of you walking out of here with one big piece of homework. Ryan, what's yours?

• 2:03:00Speaker 01

  To change my job search and be supportive towards, moving her towards, moving the condo with her mom.

• 2:03:06Ramit Sethi?

  No, one. And I don't want process. I want outcome. What are you going to have? What is your piece of homework that you are going to get?

• 2:03:17Speaker 01

  I'm going to support her in approaching her mom about moving the condo.

• 2:03:22Ramit Sethi?

  That's more important than you getting a job?

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  Looking at that right now, it kind of is.

• 2:03:28Ramit Sethi?

  You don't need it.

• 2:03:29Speaker 00

  I, I think the condo is my responsibility.

• 2:03:32Ramit Sethi?

  I agree.

• 2:03:33Speaker 00

  I think, I think that's, that's my homework.

• 2:03:35Ramit Sethi?

  Exactly.

• 2:03:36Speaker 00

  Is to either get moving on selling that house or moving her into our, like, that's, that's it. I think that's, that's it.

• 2:03:45Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. And Ryan's like, and not the second one. That's what Ryan wants to say.

• 2:03:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:03:50Ramit Sethi?

  Well, you say it, Ryan. It's okay. It's your house too. Be like, I love your mom, but no. Option one.

• 2:03:58Speaker 00

  Right, right. I think it would drive us all a little bit crazy.

• 2:04:01Ramit Sethi?

  So actually I think that's really important.

• 2:04:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:03Ramit Sethi?

  Don't give yourself two options when option two is not feasible. There's only one option.

• 2:04:06Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 2:04:07Ramit Sethi?

  That's the one that has to happen.

• 2:04:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:09Ramit Sethi?

  Okay? That's your homework.

• 2:04:11Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:04:12Ramit Sethi?

  And you know the timeline too. What, what did you agree on?

• 2:04:15Speaker 00

  I had suggested six months.

• 2:04:17Ramit Sethi?

  Great.

• 2:04:17Speaker 00

  From, from moving a property perspective, it just takes time.

• 2:04:20Ramit Sethi?

  Your payment stopped in six months.

• 2:04:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:23Speaker 00

  End of the year, roughly.

• 2:04:24Ramit Sethi?

  So there you go. Now what is your one piece of homework?

• 2:04:29Speaker 01

  Get a job?

• 2:04:30Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. And how much does that job need to pay?

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  Over 60,000.

• 2:04:35Ramit Sethi?

  Fine. 3,500 net per month and y'all are good.

• 2:04:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:39Ramit Sethi?

  Whatever it is. That's it. Clouds are cleared.

• 2:04:46Ramit Sethi?

  Any questions?

• 2:04:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:04:50Speaker 00

  My mild question to you is, I feel like you feel hesitant about that lower cutoff.

• 2:04:57Speaker 00

  That value tied to income.

• 2:04:59Ramit Sethi?

  Ask him, don't tell him, ask him.

• 2:05:00Speaker 00

  Well, that's my question. Are you going to really be comfortable in a job that pays 50,000 or 60,000?

• 2:05:06Speaker 01

  I think I'll be comfortable with it if it's local and it means a better work-life balance.

• 2:05:11Speaker 00

  Okay. So we can prioritize that.

• 2:05:16Ramit Sethi?

  I respect that.

• 2:05:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:18Ramit Sethi?

  What do y'all get out of better work-life balance? If you're not taking on all these extra gigs and you have a more comfortable work-life balance, what do you get?

• 2:05:25Speaker 00

  I think we get more time together, honestly, and as a family. I think maybe not be stressed all the time. Like, right now, there's a lot of things that we do where

• 2:05:36Speaker 00

  we're always, we're always running around and we're always trying to go from the one thing to the next.

• 2:05:41Ramit Sethi?

  I want the vision. What do you get?

• 2:05:43Speaker 00

  I

• 2:05:43Ramit Sethi?

  I want to watch a movie on a Wednesday.

• 2:05:45Speaker 00

  I want to get more time and relaxation. And maybe, yeah, space to do the things that I want to do, as opposed to the things I have to do.

• 2:05:56Ramit Sethi?

  Beautiful. It's a beautiful vision.

• 2:05:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:00Ramit Sethi?

  It's pretty hard for you to say, huh?

• 2:06:03Ramit Sethi?

  I would love that. I would love it for the two of you and your daughter to just be like, we're just going for a walk. We're just gonna go play. We're not in a rush. That'd actually be the coolest thing of all. It's not about the money. You have the money.

• 2:06:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:06:18Ramit Sethi?

  Make a couple of big changes and y'all are good. That's the stuff your daughter sees, but even without your daughter, that's the stuff that makes life

• 2:06:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:06:28Ramit Sethi?

  joyful. Gosh, there was a lot of courage from Isabelle and Ryan today, and I just want to acknowledge how much they had to go through just to come here and to stay here. I think Isabelle kind of expected me to go to town on Ryan and tell him all the things he was doing wrong. And I think she quickly discovered she actually plays a part, a very large part, in this dynamic. It's uncomfortable to have a mirror reflected at you and realize, oh, my gosh, I might be a part of this problem. That is not easy. And to her credit, she came back in here and she said, let's keep going. Incredibly courageous. One of the bravest things I have seen on this show. Ryan has taken a backseat to money.

• 2:07:10Ramit Sethi?

  And I am very happy to say that by the end, you notice that he seemed to find his voice. And if anything, I want more of that. I want them both to sit up straight and speak openly about the things they want, about the things they need. Now, it's gonna take a lot of work. This is gonna be hard, but it's also one of the most valuable things they can do for themselves and for their daughter. And now, let's hear their follow-ups.

• 2:07:37Speaker 00

  Hey, Ramit, just doing a quick follow-up. The most surprising thing about our conversation, I think, was how uncomfortable the whole process made me feel. I'm the one who submitted the application. I've listened to many, many episodes of the podcast. I've always thought of myself as someone who's comfortable talking about money. And honestly, it was just deeply uncomfortable in a lot of ways. I think that's because Ryan and I were really forced to grapple with the sometimes unhealthy patterns of communication and dynamics that we've fallen into over 12 years of marriage. All the things that we should say that are being left unsaid or implied or hidden, kind of in jabs or just these little ways that we talk to each other and about each other.

• 2:08:19Speaker 00

  I think for me, it was really eye-opening to hear someone else's perspective on those and to really think about how we can improve and better our communication as we move forward. My biggest takeaway for me personally is that I think I've been hanging on to that house in Mexico emotionally, just as much as my mom has, which is why I think I've been really reluctant to push on finding a solution for the condo, which is just one of the biggest hits to our fixed costs. I've been trying to think about, you know, how do we increase our income? How do we lower other expenses? How do I set, you know, travel and retirement and everything on the back burner? And I'm realizing that I really can't be doing that.

• 2:08:57Speaker 00

  So I have already sat down and had a very, very long and very emotional conversation with my mom about this. We have a plan. We have a plan in the next six weeks to list the house, and it's only six weeks because we'll both, I think, need to be in Mexico. So there's some delay there in traveling. But we have a plan, and I think she's on board. She understands, and I was very grateful for that. And I'm very grateful to you and the team for this experience. It was great. Thanks.

• 2:09:22Speaker 01

  Hey, guys. Ryan here with a quick update. Yeah, so I think my biggest surprise from the whole conversation was in two different levels. The first one was just how checked out I was on our finances. I was just afraid of confrontation or making mistakes, and I kind of just ended up sending a lot of those decisions Isabella's way, and it was causing her a lot of stress. The other surprise was just how long the condo had kind of been in limbo. And so that was kind of a huge surprise for me. I realized it had been a while, but I wasn't sure that it had been quite that long. I think the whole process was pretty uncomfortable, but we're definitely making steps on moving forward with that.

• 2:10:05Speaker 01

  I'm gonna be a lot more present in our finances going forward. We're scheduling discussions about money regularly, which is really good for us. I'm spending my job search for another one, just kind of to look at variable incomes there. I do have a few things in the work that are on my similar level, though, which is good. I've been interviewing and excited for that. But I think at the end of the day, I just need to kind of move forward and see what I can find. And just be there for Isabella and make sure we make the right decisions together as a team.

• 2:10:47Speaker 00

  It's been, I think, about seven weeks since we spoke to you, and so we were just recording a quick update. We have a couple of really exciting new updates, so I'll turn it to you.

• 2:10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I guess the most exciting or most dramatic change is I've received a job offer, which I've accepted for 150,000 per year, which kind of resets our finances a little bit more and makes things a little bit less tight.

• 2:11:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we're really excited about that. We're kind of figuring out what that looks like for us now and kind of how we're gonna be moving forward. On my end with my homework, we are or have been talking to my mom a lot about selling the house in Mexico, and I think she has kind of accepted and come to realize that's something that we need to do, and so we are moving forward with that. Planning to travel there. Well, she was planning to travel there in September to really start moving on that a little bit more. I think the other thing that I've realized and that we've realized through this process is that even if it's no longer strictly a financial decision, even if we can afford the cost with the new job, it's still something we need to do, just from a practical perspective and a personal perspective. So that is still something that we plan to do in the next six months or so, hopefully.

• 2:12:01Speaker 00

  I think moving forward, the biggest thing and the biggest mindset shift has really been thinking through and discussing together how we want to

• 2:12:12Speaker 00

  plan things and spend money consciously. You know, we're gonna be kind of adjusting to a whole new income and a whole new approach to how we tackle those decisions. And I think we've been having a lot of good conversations already about how we're going to do that.

• 2:12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I just wanted to add to that, that we've been having a lot of these conversations. And on that note, they had actual conversations and a lot more reciprocal to each other's feedback. And we've been having meetings regularly discussing our finances and what we want to do, what we want to save for, where our financial goals are and things like that.

• 2:12:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So I think we've already kind of sat down and made a preemptive plan for what we're gonna do once he starts the job. And I think we're in a good place. I'm really hopeful for what the next, you know, while is gonna look like for us. So thank you so much.

• 2:13:03Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 2:13:05Ramit Sethi?

  If you want to know the exact month and year that you will have $100,000 in your investment portfolio, sign up for my new program, Road to 100K. I'll help you hit that number fast. Go to iwt.com/100k to sign up.