How Apollo, Citadel, Blackstone, & Bridgewater Built Their Brands

Jen Prosek has spent more than two decades helping build and protect the reputations of some of the biggest names in finance. She is the Founder & Managing Partner of Prosek Partners, which works across private markets, asset management, venture capital, banking and technology — representing clients with roughly $70 trillion in combined AUM. We sat down at the New York Stock Exchange to unpack how the most powerful firms and financiers build their brands, what destroys a reputation, how to recover when things go wrong, and why reputation has become even more important in the age of AI. Jen breaks down the brand strategies behind Apollo, Citadel, Blackstone, Bridgewater and Meta; why Jensen Huang has become an ambassador for AI; how financial firms went from staying “under the radar” to spending millions on brand; and why VC firms are increasingly thinking like media companies. We also get into crisis communications, when leaders should fight back versus stay quiet, why employees are one of the biggest reputation risks inside a company, the rise of podcasts and owned media, why LLMs are a comms strategy, and how founders should think about journalists. Jennifer Prosek: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-prosek/ Molly O’Shea: https://x.com/MollySOShea Sourcery: ⁠https://x.com/sourceryy 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊 YouTube: https://youtu.be/lJDb3bYkLfI 𝐒𝐏𝐎𝐍𝐒𝐎𝐑𝐒 • Brex https://brex.com/sourcery—The modern finance platform, combining the world’s smartest corporate card with integrated expense management, banking, bill pay, & travel. https://brex.com/sourcery • Zone https://zonefrontier.com/—develops next-generation data center campuses, partnering with AI companies, site developers and technology leaders to bring compute online faster and at scale. Visit: https://zonefrontier.com https://zonefrontier.com/ • Turing https://turing.com/sourcery—Turing delivers top-tier talent, data, and tools to help AI labs improve model performance—and enables enterprises to turn those models into powerful, production-ready systems. https://turing.com/sourcery • VCX https://fundrise.com/vcx—VCX is the public ticker for private tech, allowing investors of all sizes to invest in venture capital. View The Portfolio at http://GetVCX.com http://getvcx.com • Deel https://www.deel.com/sourcery—Deel is the global people platform that helps startups hire, manage, pay, and equip anyone, anywhere. Trusted by more than 35,000 fast-growing companies, Deel is the people platform that just works, so teams can scale without the chaos. Visit: https://www.deel.com/sourcery • Public http://public.com/sourcery–Investing platform Public just launched Generated Assets https://public.com/generated-asset, which lets you turn any idea into an investable index with AI. With Generated Assets, you can build, backtest, refine, and invest in any thesis with AI. Gone are the days of one-size-fits-all ETFs. https://public.com/sourcery Follow Sourcery for the latest updates! https://www.sourcery.vc https://www.sourcery.vc/ Disclosure Paid Endorsement. Brokerage services by Open to the Public Investing Inc, member FINRA & SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors LLC, SEC-registered adviser. Crypto trading provided by Zero Hash LLC, licensed by the NYSDFS. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool by Public Advisors. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. See disclosures at public.com/disclosures/ga. Matched funds must remain in your account for at least 5 years. Match rate and other terms are subject to change at any time. 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 (00:00) Jennifer Prosek, Founder & MP at Prosek Partners (01:10) What makes a great financial brand? (06:47) How much firms spend on marketing (07:45) How brand drives talent, deals, and capital (09:00) How to build a brand (13:31) How podcasts drive contracts and deal flow (15:34) When to play offense with your brand (19:55) The Coldplay concert incident (23:05) Why relationships with journalists matter (26:22) The problem with AI’s public narrative (30:58) The role of a "chief EQ officer" (34:25) How Meta rebuilt its brand (39:08) How to win without traditional media (42:30) How Apollo rebuilt its reputation

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  My name is Jen Prosek. Prosek Partners is known as an integrated marketing communications firm.

• 0:05Molly O'Shea?

  You were top three in M&A communications, ranked number one globally in deal volume in 2026. You hit nine figures in revenue. Am I allowed to say that?

• 0:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:14Molly O'Shea?

  That's crazy. You have a clear monopoly on all of the branding and marketing, PR, comms, and strategy behind some of the largest institutions and also companies as well. You have 70 trillion in clients AUM.

• 0:27Speaker 00

  A lot of money. I started the business in my twenties and I had this crazy idea that the finance world would care about brand in an offense way. I had this cockamamie idea that we were going to be the firm that did that. We were selling something no one wanted to buy for years. And then the financial crisis came and Goldman famously had the vampire squid and many, many other firms were damaged. So famously, the Goldman's of the world decide this is not a defense game. It's an offense game. They went to the market and said, who does this? And we were like, we've been talking about this for years.

• 1:10Molly O'Shea?

  Today, we're sitting down with Jen Prosek, one of the most influential brand builders in finance and technology. Jen is the founder and managing partner of Prosek Partners, the reputation management firm behind some of the biggest names across private markets, asset management, venture capital, banking, and tech. For more than two decades, she's advised financial institutions managing hundreds of billions and in some cases, trillions of dollars, helping them shape their brands, build trust, manage crises, and turn reputation into a competitive advantage. Today, I want to unpack what she's learned from having a front row seat to some of the most powerful firms and financiers in the world, who has built the best brands, what they got right, what destroys a reputation,

• 1:54Molly O'Shea?

  how to build one intentionally, and what happens when things go wrong. Jen Prosek, welcome to Sorcery.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:01Molly O'Shea?

  Well, I'm so excited to have you here. We're at the New York Stock Exchange in their IPO roadshow library.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 2:06Molly O'Shea?

  This is very emulating of your career.

• 2:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:10Molly O'Shea?

  And all of the huge financial firms that you work with, building out the largest brands. So I want to ask you, what makes a good financial brand?

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Well, it's kind of what makes any brand great, but I think first it has a distinctive narrative. We always tell clients, before you get out there and say anything, you need to nail the narrative. You have to figure out what is it that is distinctive and interesting and exciting so that when you say it and all your people say it, there is some positive effect, right? Brands typically are somewhat emotional. They're aspirational. So all the things are built into nailing the narrative. But I think great brands are, you know, the word authentic is always used, but it is true. They're authentic. They have some sort of purpose. They have some sort of reason for being,

• 3:02Speaker 00

  some right to win. And I think brands are aspirational and emotional. You want to feel as the customer of a brand that you are part of it and that it represents you.

• 3:14Molly O'Shea?

  So I don't know if you say this, but I'll say it because Prosek pops up in my inbox all the time.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  We like that.

• 3:21Molly O'Shea?

  You have a clear monopoly on all of the branding and marketing, PR, comms, and strategy behind some of the largest institutions and also companies as well. So I think I wrote it down. You have 70 trillion in clients AUM.

• 3:38Speaker 00

  It's a lot of money.

• 3:38Molly O'Shea?

  It's a lot of money. As we walk out this conversation, I'd love to talk through some core examples.

• 3:46Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 3:47Molly O'Shea?

  And I know alongside that, there's, there's like a handful of stats behind you, but you were top three in M&A communications, ranked number one globally in deal volume in 2026. You were ranked number one alongside FGS Global. You hit nine figures in revenue. Am I allowed to say that?

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:06Molly O'Shea?

  That's crazy. Oh, my gosh. And you have a long list of clients. But I guess to start, we'll talk through some client cases and some, you know, just other brands. But this might be a big question as well, but who do you think has built some of the best brands in finance?

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Well, it's undeniable that the obvious ones have done a good job, right? And by the way, they started incredibly early, but Blackstone, Goldman, JP Morgan. I mean, these are the obvious players. There are some, I think, financial brands that are newer, that were born only a few years ago, that are excellent brands. One is Arctos. I don't know if you know them, but they just got bought by KKR. I think they have an exceptional brand. So I've been at this a very long time. I started the business in my twenties and I had this crazy idea that the finance world would care about brand in an offense way. There was offense and defense. The only dollars spent in the entire industry

• 5:05Speaker 00

  is if you got in trouble, you would call a crisis firm, or maybe if you did an M&A transaction. But there was no offense game. And I thought, thank God I was young and silly, but I had this idea that, you know, what if all these investors changed their stance and went on the offense and cared about brand building? There's really no firm in the space that does that. And I had this cockamamie idea that we were going to be the firm that did that. And we were selling something no one wanted to buy for years. I would sort of get the door slammed in my face like, we're under the radar. We don't engage with stakeholders outside of our investors. Go away. And then the financial crisis came and Goldman famously had the vampire squid

• 5:50Speaker 00

  and many, many other firms were damaged. I mean, Lehman went away, Bear Stearns went away. And the whole ecosystem knew that they had brand damage. I mean, regular people on Main Street hated finance. So famously, the Goldman's of the world decide, you know, this is not a defense game. It's an offense game. And they hired, they went to the market and said, who does this? And we were like, we've been talking about this for years. So we kind of had our magic moment in the GFC. And then we made a big bet on private markets, VC, PE, credit. And our competition thought we're crazy, like, or like, why are you hanging around with those weird squirrely founder people who don't spend money?

• 6:31Speaker 00

  And they didn't at the time, but we made a long-term bet, which super paid off. So, you know, thank you for all those accolades, but I just want the audience to know, we started at zero. We started small and ugly with a crazy idea and we're lucky it hit.

• 6:47Molly O'Shea?

  To put some dollars towards these budgets for the different categories, how much do each of the different categories of firms typically spend on marketing and brand?

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would say if you're under $2 billion of AUM, your spend is probably $250,000 or less. I would say the more complex, the more global, the more multi-product you are. And also if you're retail and institutional, if you're public, if you start to sort of get complicated, your budgets are probably half a million dollars to $4 million. Huge range. It depends. I mean, you see for the first time, the publicly traded, you know, private markets firms, you know, doing F1 sponsorships and US open sponsorships. That's to get to the retail audience, right? That's driven a lot of interest in brand, but it's driven a lot of spend. So you could just imagine

• 7:40Speaker 00

  the budgets could be $10 million if you're getting into that kind of marketing.

• 7:45Molly O'Shea?

  And so what is the main objective, I guess, to market? Has retail kind of changed the focus?

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Definitely. So let's start with a rubric I call. So when a founder is skeptical about the business impact of brand, because people often, the old schoolers often felt that brand, oh, that's this fluffy and tangible thing that doesn't deliver ROI. We sort of easily change a founder's mind when we talk about talent, deals, and capital. That's the rubric, that we are going to make people want to work for you because you're a brand, instead of you begging them. We're going to help you with deal sourcing. You're going to get better deals. You're going to compete better for deals because people are going to want to be with your firm. And then we're going to make fundraising more efficient and effective.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  And that's the phone call we get the most, honestly, is like fundraising is torturous right now. So the idea that what we do can create efficiency and effectiveness and preference in a fundraise is really attractive. So that's kind of the speech that founders start to say, okay, maybe I do need to experiment with, with some of this stuff.

• 9:00Molly O'Shea?

  What's the typical, okay, you onboard a new client. What is a typical process to building that brand out? Do you like first strategize a bit, then are you trying to pick like, who's the key person in the firm that maybe should be an image of it? Is a brand the image of it? How do you decide those components? And then what is the step function to build it up?

• 9:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, it depends where you are in the journey, but typically speaking in this world, you know, whether you're, JP Morgan has it pretty much down, but whether you're a large global financial institution, a technology company, or a startup, it kind of starts with like, where are you on the journey? And we need to nail the narrative. Most financial firms would say, we're not good at explaining what we do quickly, easily, with intention and excitement, right? That's kind of where we start, is like, how do we figure out that narrative? And that's a sort of an internal and external research exercise. And at the end of it, we basically tell clients, if we were you,

• 10:03Speaker 00

  this is how we would, this is what we would say, how we would say it, and how we would amplify it. And then you get to the work of amplification of your story and brand, right? And there's lots of choices there. And some of the choices are based on what your culture is like, but most of the choices should be about what are your business goals, right?

• 10:20Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  So should I be doing media? Should I be doing thought leadership and speaking? Digital, social? Should I stay quiet? So, you know, I think even the most conservative brands are doing some version of all of this, sort of like media, thought, leadership, digital, and of course, fixing crises. But that's kind of the, the way we look at it.

• 10:44Molly O'Shea?

  Do people still need to do blogs? I mean, this is kind of a hot topic because I was talking, I was debating with someone about this the other day. I feel like podcasts have kind of like, internal podcasts. I'm not really a proponent for this because I don't believe everybody needs a podcast, but I understand it creates content.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:01Molly O'Shea?

  And it kind of took over where blogs were. Everyone would make blogs for SEO and all that kind of stuff. And so you'd get more traffic. You'd have some collateral in case someone you're hiring or that kind of thing. Do they still matter? Like, what are the key resources?

• 11:15Speaker 00

  I would just say, content matters and you have to figure out what's the kind of content that's gonna turn your audience on, right? And what content are you naturally good at? So, a podcast internally is a really, I think, uphill battle for most companies because you need distribution.

• 11:34Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  You need an audience. If you're reaching five people, it's not worth doing. I'm a huge fan, it's one of the reasons I wanted to get to know you, of the podcast, because it is a long-form asset. I always say to clients, this is not a one-and-done interview. This is an asset. If you do this well, you can advance this piece to an investor, a new recruit, a customer, and if they even listen to half of it, again, that efficiency of effectiveness, they sit down, they're ready to do business, they might even prefer to work with you. It's hard to get the story and the perspective of the person without that long-form interview. And people love audio, right? Even investors, don't give me your deck, I'd rather listen while I'm on the treadmill.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  People like the portability of audio, so I'm a big fan. But, so I wouldn't say the blog is in or the blog is out, or, you know, I know this audi- your audience hates LinkedIn, I write a LinkedIn newsletter, it's one of my top three most effective things I do.

• 12:34Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 12:35Speaker 00

  Because if I got 100,000 views overnight on my piece, I kinda know I'm reaching people. And I know that message is something I should continue with, not abandon. If I get 10,000, I know, eh, that's kind of a stinker. So like, the market research I get from social platforms is just really amazing. So I would say, I don't discriminate against any of it, and I'm a big proponent of experimenting. I tell my clients, let's try these things, because we're gonna get a feel of like, where are we moving hearts and minds, where are we hitting our audience, where is this becoming a commercial impact? And then stop doing certain things and double down on the others.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  So I have things that I do for my firm, that I've, top three things I do to build my brand and the firm's brand, and, you know, for commercial reasons, and they might not be someone else's top three.

• 13:30Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah. I love that you love podcasts, because I saw the value of it when I started creating mine, even when I had a tiny audience, I would have startups come on, I'd have funds come on, and they'd be getting customers out of it.

• 13:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:42Molly O'Shea?

  They'd be getting like, $50 million contracts, like crazy things. And then they'd get funding out of it, millions of dollars, you know, that kind of stuff.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  I'm up to 17 million in fees on one podcast.

• 13:53Molly O'Shea?

  Really?

• 13:54Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:55Molly O'Shea?

  No.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  Yes. And I'll give them a shout, it's the Ted Seides Capital Allocators Podcast, because Ted created an institutional investor marketplace.

• 14:05Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  LPs and founder GPs, they listen. And that's a very powerful combination. Decision-makers, very senior. And I guess I did the podcast when people were just really starting to think about marketing, but I still get calls from it, and I think it was seven years ago.

• 14:24Molly O'Shea?

  It's incredible.

• 14:25Speaker 00

  It's incredible.

• 14:25Molly O'Shea?

  I did, so when I was doing extra research on this, we sat and we had coffee in LA, and it was amazing.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  It was, it was outside, the sun was out, it was great.

• 14:34Molly O'Shea?

  It was beautiful, beautiful weather all the time.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 14:37Molly O'Shea?

  But I was preparing for this, and I, what I do, because, I know you did this too, and I know that like, it's become kind of a forcing function of getting to know people, clients, that kind of thing, ahead of time. Before I interview anyone, I will look up every podcast they've ever gone on, I'll go right to Spotify, I'll search their name, maybe their company, I'll go to YouTube, I'll search that up too, but on Spotify, I saw this, I saw that podcast, he re-uploads it every year because it must be that good.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  He didn't tell me.

• 15:06Molly O'Shea?

  Yes. No, you can go to Spotify, it's like, up there, like, it's replayed like, seven times.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 15:11Molly O'Shea?

  It's incredible. So like, that's when you know you have like, a hit piece. For me, it's like, a goal, like, I want to be able to create evergreen content that you can replay every year, and it's still a banger.

• 15:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:22Molly O'Shea?

  But like, you clearly-

• 15:22Speaker 00

  But that's the thing, people who love your podcast will go back to the library and be like, I didn't watch this one, I'm gonna watch this one. So, the shelf life is actually quite long.

• 15:33Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah. But, um, so I wanna talk about that a little bit more. So, in terms of the podcast strategy, in terms of the content strategy, we're living in a world right now where you, I, I wanna know when you should play offense, when you should stay on the sidelines and kind of be in the quiet, because there is a point in which you're like, okay, maybe you don't actually need to do anything.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:54Molly O'Shea?

  But there is a point in time where it's like, okay, you, maybe you're growing really fast, maybe there will be challenges along the way, and maybe you should get ahead of the narratives in whatever way they come at you. But how do you think about that and building out this offensive strategy?

• 16:07Speaker 00

  So, there's this sort of like, overall brand health you should have, right? It doesn't have to be very complicated, but you should be monitoring, what does my brand look like and feel like to the outside? And, by the way, in the world of LLMs, this happened yesterday, I talked to a $10 billion manager, and I almost didn't take the call, because it was like, they look kinda puny on LLMs, and there wasn't a lot of this and that, and I'm like, do I need to take this call, maybe someone else should take this call? And I get on the phone, and, oh my gosh, what a dynamic, incredible fund. Young founder, up to $9 billion, has, by the way, done none of this stuff.

• 16:47Molly O'Shea?

  Wow.

• 16:48Speaker 00

  But like, everything was inaccurate, online.

• 16:50Molly O'Shea?

  Really?

• 16:51Speaker 00

  And I'm like, dude, you've got to fix this. And the way to fix it in good times is to feed the machine, right? If you don't feed the machine positive content about you and your brand, what I call it momentum content, the machine just grabs what's available. It could be old, it could be wrong, so outside of bad times and a crisis, you can somewhat manage what the machine's gonna say about you. I always say, even on your personal brand, like, I literally did a word cloud of the words I want people to associate with me, entrepreneur, connector, this, that, the other, those words come up in my profile. If you look, those words are coming back, being spit back about me when you ask about me online.

• 17:36Speaker 00

  So I think there's just a certain amount of, and it doesn't have to be fancy or complicated, but if you're not feeding the machine a little, you're not controlling anything. So if something bad happens, what's out there? Only the bad stuff. So, offense is a good defense. So I would say, like, this sort of like, build the muscle of good, positive content. Obviously, people know this, the third-party media ranks higher, whether it's Google or the LLMs, so if the media said something nice about you, or you're quoted about something important, and it's the New York Times, or the FT, or the Wall Street Journal, or your podcast, if it's ranked highly, those things will show up more and be more powerful. So, I always say to everyone, do just a little bit of hygiene, right?

• 18:21Speaker 00

  But in terms of like, when to speak, when not to speak, if you're in a crisis, this is one of the hardest things, by the way, this is why you need someone who's done this for 20 years by your side, if you end up in a crisis, because these chess moves are so important, and they're, take massive amount of judgment, and there's no playbook for you always do this, you always do that. So, but in general, I would say, I'll pick a couple always-dos. If there's a negative story about your firm, you have to assess, will speaking, or participating, or putting out a statement, add fuel, add oxygen to the story? So you are causing the next news cycle, or not.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  And I generally say to clients, like, let's take a deep breath and not react too early, see where the news cycle's going. The news cycle might just pass you by, like a wave, and then you do nothing, right? But in a situation where the news cycle is inaccurate, or the news cycle is going in a direction that's going to really damage your reputation, and it's wrong, you have to participate. And most journalists who are worth their salt, you know, will go on the, off the record or on background, and let you explain the context of what's going on, and that will shape whatever story is happening.

• 19:43Speaker 00

  So I think, um, but I would never, ever, here's a never, ever, allow a, like, negative reputation that is untrue to calcify around you. A fun example, not so fun for her and him, remember the Coldplay concert? Okay, I think that was viewed 8 billion times around the world. It became this crazy sensation. But you didn't hear from those people, right? I mean, you were just, the news cycle was just everyone online talking about this, right? And the narrative that calcified was basically very negative around her, because, you know, people weren't sure, is she divorced, is she single, is she this?

• 20:26Speaker 00

  There was a lot of narrative around, who was the homewrecker, who was the this, and who was the that? Well, guess what? She finally came out, I think nine months later, and did one podcast with Oprah Winfrey.

• 20:36Molly O'Shea?

  Oh my gosh.

• 20:37Speaker 00

  And it turned out, she was separated from her husband, he was at the concert, so he knew she wasn't cheating, she wasn't whatever. Anyway, she told her first side of the story, she said on the podcast, she received death threats, you know, what was said about her was horrific, and she said it was mostly women. But-

• 20:56Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah, of course.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  It was a very sad story, in my view, she was obviously given the PR advice to sort of stay low, and that was probably right in the beginning, but I believe she should have come out swinging at a certain point, because this narrative calcified around her. And unless you listen to that Oprah Winfrey podcast many moons later, you still have the old reputation in your head.

• 21:19Molly O'Shea?

  That's a really good point, so I wanna talk about that a little bit more, and I, we'll get into the reputation management, but like- The media can stamp an image of you before you stamp it yourself. So when is like the period of time in which you can come in and disprove that and actually claim?

• 21:38Speaker 00

  Well, anytime something's untrue, I think you have to participate. Whether you put out a statement, you go off the record with a reporter, you've got to not let that calcify. Untrue has to be corrected. And by the way, if the media writes an untrue story and you can prove that it's untrue, most of the time they will change certain parts of it. Right? And because stories live online forever, that's very useful because what's living in the digital world matters. So the beauty is it can be changed. Right? So I'm a big fan of coming out fighting when it's not true. I mean, you know, we've worked with Ray Dalio for 18 years. He was the master of this back in the day when he was running Bridgewater.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  I mean, he would run full page ads that said, this is not true. I mean, he was extremely aggressive, but I think he started to teach the market that you don't have to stay quiet. And he had so many friends and fans on LinkedIn.

• 22:37Molly O'Shea?

  He's very popular.

• 22:38Speaker 00

  If he speaks directly to his audience on social channels, it's so effective. It's like, this is happening to me in the media. Guess what? It's not true. Oh, my fans and followers. So that's the beautiful thing about having your own social channels. Right? I mean, this is what you see on X or what have you. Like you could speak directly to your people and Donald Trump figured that one out.

• 22:58Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah. People are a little bit quicker on X.

• 23:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:03Molly O'Shea?

  Commentary.

• 23:04Speaker 00

  Very.

• 23:05Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah. Another part of talking through this is the journalist aspect of it. How do you actually engage with journalists and how do you know to trust them or not? Because most of the time, I mean, especially in the tech world, we're living in a world where they're just trying to get you.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah. So I would say that part of that brand hygiene thing is pick a few reporters to get to know. Cause it's a very simple thing. Relationships matter. If I've met you a bunch of times and you have an impression of me that is good and we're in a bad situation, you're more likely just to talk to me off the record. Like you know me, I want to tell you what's happening. So having relationships matters, whether it's a relationship for access or it's a relationship to be able to tell your side of the story. I'm a big fan, I know it takes time, but of like getting to know a certain amount of reasonable journalists. Right? There's always the unreasonable journalists, but most of them I find are actually relatively

• 24:06Speaker 00

  reasonable and most of them really want to learn about the business. You know, think also like you get people who are on the retail beat, going to the credit beat, the credit beat going to the this, like they don't always have the backstory of everything going on. So I think like the education and relation of, of, of your business and, and industry and the relationships is definitely helps.

• 24:29Molly O'Shea?

  This episode is brought to you by Brex, my favorite. You become what you spend on and I refuse to spend my time on work that shouldn't exist. Expense reports, receipt chasing and manual closes. The companies building what's next from Versel, OpenAI, Anthropic, Granola and Deepgram all made the same call. They all run on Brex. Brex is the intelligent finance platform that combines cards, expenses and banking into a single stack with agentic finance built in. AI agents that handle expenses automatically, enforce policy before spend happens and close your books in minutes.

• 25:10Molly O'Shea?

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• 25:52Molly O'Shea?

  Visit Turing.com/SO U R C E R Y. AI needs more than chips. It needs power, land and infrastructure. Zone develops next generation data center campuses, partnering with AI companies, site developers and technology leaders to bring compute online faster and at scale. Zone is building the foundation of the AI frontier. Visit zonefrontier.com to learn more. That's zonefrontier.com to learn more. So when you started the firm, finance was going through kind of like a hit piece era. No one was like down on finance. It's evil capitalism. It's evil. We're kind of swinging back into that with the whole rise of socialism.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 26:36Molly O'Shea?

  But I want to talk through that because the narrative right now that media has taken over is hate on data centers.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 26:43Molly O'Shea?

  And AI, right?

• 26:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 26:45Molly O'Shea?

  So how did, how do you combat something like that? And how do you build back the narrative? I mean, they're pretty in deep right now because they started off so negative. But in, in terms of that, like what happened in the financial era that created it to kind of like wash over and now some of these firms, like people really look up to them.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 27:04Molly O'Shea?

  Versus, you know, the shifts that are happening now.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I think, and we work with some data center builders. The reality that is, I believe that I think Silicon Valley likes to speak to itself. And that's a very tight circle. I always say there are very tight ecosystems. Right? There's Silicon Valley, there's Wall Street, there's Hollywood, whatever you want to pick. And very seldom do the people in those ecosystems really mix and talk to the people in others. Politics, another ecosystem. Right? The problem I think began when AI was speaking to its ecosystem about truths that don't appeal to maybe the political ecosystem or the main street ecosystem. Right?

• 27:51Speaker 00

  So I will tell you, I went to an amazing AI founder conference and the narrative was you are a great CEO if you cut your teams and increase your profits. Duh, that's what you're supposed to be doing. But the reality is there are societal impacts of that, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that this narrative grew and then it started to leak outside of Silicon Valley and actually didn't leak. The CEOs of Silicon Valley started to say, everyone's going to lose their job. Not everyone, but you know, it's like, everyone was talking about what percentage.

• 28:23Molly O'Shea?

  They really needed to see like that.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. So they created this narrative. Right? So what happened all of a sudden is Main Street cares. Eric Schmidt gets booed at his convocation speech or whatever it was, graduation speech. My daughter just started college Sunday, the minute AI came in, all the students booed. So you got to look at that and say, ooh, we've kind of stubbed our toe with students, with regular main street people. So I think there's always been what we call NIMBY, not in my backyard. Like people don't want to necessarily have construction in their backyard, but I think the bigger deal is like this out of control narrative on the evils of AI. And I would say, you know, I've got to give Jensen Huang some props.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  He's been on a road show. He's broken out of Silicon Valley and he's talking to Wall Street. He's talking to Washington. He's talking to Europe. He's talking to the UK. He's talking to Asia. He is become somewhat of an ambassador for like, why AI actually could be good for you? And I think that's the most important thing right now is figuring out, how does the narrative shift into, I think people get American competitiveness, good job creation, like, you know, things that are positive around AI. So I think that's just the shift that needs to happen.

• 29:42Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah. I mean, that's a good example. Anybody in the Jensen sphere of leaders is super competitive.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 29:49Molly O'Shea?

  They're very competitive and they all probably have the same components and characteristics of one another, but they are viewed differently externally. So take Jensen as an example, like he's adored. People love him. Meanwhile, Elon, they just immediately say he's evil, even though he's creating all these like sustainable companies and has a huge pure mission and all that kind of stuff. So like, what, what would be the difference between a Jensen brand and an Elon brand?

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Well, I think Jensen's been a bit more gentle with his commentary and his messaging. I mean, Elon goes and acts and just sort of says what's on his mind, which we all, I mean, I'm super entertained by, by the way, I admire Elon Musk so much. I think every entrepreneur does. I think he's the greatest engineer of all time, maybe, but I think the, his execution is, is rough sometimes. And I think that matters. That sticks in people's heads.

• 30:44Molly O'Shea?

  Hmm. So that's the biggest difference. Um, okay. So I think like, uh, oh yeah. What I wanted to mention on that, um, walking back on what you just mentioned is kind of your role in this, you told me this beforehand is you kind of play the role of chief EQ officer.

• 31:05Speaker 00

  Sometimes.

• 31:06Molly O'Shea?

  How does that, like, what, what does that actually mean?

• 31:08Speaker 00

  I think it means being the truth teller at the table. It means sitting beside your very powerful client and pointing out like, if you say this, it may be translated like that. I would do this, this way. I had to tell a client, a founder, I do these salon dinners for founders and I moderate the table. And he was so, he's so smart, but he was so domineering at the table. It was terrible. I mean, he just wouldn't let anyone speak. So after I had to call him and I told him, I said, you are brilliant and I can make you a star, but you cannot dominate like you did at that table. Because I got all this feedback.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  So telling the truth sometimes is really hard, but you know, it is true that, and I worry about this with myself, the higher you go up the food chain, the less people are telling you the truth. So you need somebody to not tell you, oh, you're amazing. You were so great. Your speech was awesome. I mean, you need the person that kind of tells you what you need to improve. And I think the chief EQ officer just means we all are living in our bubble and it's our job sometimes to look beyond the bubble and translate what's happening and how that client can actually like really function at its, their highest level in, in every ecosystem there is.

• 32:31Molly O'Shea?

  What are some types of low EQ moves?

• 32:34Speaker 00

  Oh. Um.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Well, one, and I should say this, you need to think about your employees a lot. Your employees are your ambassadors and I would say more than 50%, probably more than 75% of negative stories start by employees leaking information. So they can help you out in bad times or bury you. So, you know, that's not why you should be great to your employees. You should be great to your employees because they're so incredibly vital to your, the life blood of your firm. But I think sometimes the internal communications and employee communications is not as highly ranked, right, as investor communications or whatever. So I think, you know, one low EQ move is just not being sort of present when you're

• 33:23Speaker 00

  speaking to employees and understanding that as the leader, every move you make is watched, right? So that seems very obvious, but I see that a lot.

• 33:35Molly O'Shea?

  Do you see people double down when they should probably be quiet?

• 33:39Speaker 00

  Sometimes, yeah. I mean, I think emotions run high when risk goes up and there's, you know, attention. So I think, you know, making calm, smart.

• 33:51Molly O'Shea?

  Do people sometimes not take your advice? I think that's kind of the question.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  Sure, but actually not often, I have to say. No, I mean, well, I choose my spots, you know, like everybody else. But yeah, sure. I think especially in a crisis, there's often pressure to like act or react. Also, if you're not organized before a crisis happens, you have too many advisors, too much of a mess going on and mistakes can happen. So yeah, it happens.

• 34:24Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah, I want to talk through a couple of examples of that. The meta, we were talking about the meta.

• 34:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, meta is fascinating right now.

• 34:30Molly O'Shea?

  What, what just happened with meta? Can you explain that out a little bit and how they, I mean, they've been going through stuff for a while.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  So I thought about this. I think meta is such a fascinating case study because there's kind of like three brand and reputation things happening at once. There's the product level. If you love Instagram, you love Instagram. I don't want to say you don't care about meta, but there's a product level reputation and brand. There's a corporate level reputation and brand, that's meta. And then there's a Zuckerberg reputation and brand. I think they're all at different levels. I think at the product level, again, it was like Uber. If you loved Uber and it really made your life better, you really didn't care what was going on with Travis Kalanick at the moment, right? You wanted to take Uber.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  Now, some people care about that, but a lot of people only care, do I like the product? So I think they're doing pretty well on the product side. On the corporate side, I think they made, this settlement is smart and.

• 35:35Molly O'Shea?

  Could you explain the settlement?

• 35:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, so obviously they settled for billions of dollars, these lawsuits. And obviously it's all about, you know, whether social media harms children, right? But they are making amends and what they're doing with the amends, meaning like we're shutting down likes for this long and we're, I don't know all the details. But the amends they're making, now they're asking the entire industry, like if we've got to make amends, it's an industry problem. You've got to make amends Snapchat or whoever. So I think they're doing a really, they're running full page ads basically saying it's an industry problem, not a meta problem, so everyone should get on board.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  So some of the heat is now going on the competition because it's like, we care about children and we're doing these things. Are you doing these things? So I think that has been masterfully done, honestly.

• 36:30Molly O'Shea?

  They're taking the hit for everyone else.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  That's right. And I think as a corporate and institutional brand, they are creating their sort of right to survive by doing this, right? But then there's the Zuckerberg brand, which I think we could all agree, started in the social network, then was Cambridge Analytica, then there's the trials, then there's like just hit after hit after hit. But the question is, and this is a question I always ask myself, can Meta survive like Zuckerberg going away? I would say, yeah.

• 37:02Molly O'Shea?

  You think so?

• 37:03Speaker 00

  I think so. But this is me. This is a debate. This is always a debate, you know? Can the firm survive the big founder? I, I think the, they've turned into an institutional corporate in my mind that can probably survive and they're making the right institutional corporate moves.

• 37:19Molly O'Shea?

  Do you think his brand through all of that has, he's the one who's been punished for it more than the brand is what you're saying?

• 37:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, I think he has had a difficult personal brand since the beginning and that has not changed. And the only way that that would change is, you know, consistent different actions over a long period of time.

• 37:44Molly O'Shea?

  I will say from the consumer standpoint and as someone who loves technology.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:50Molly O'Shea?

  There's nothing better than when Zuck is just being a bro. Like, people just love to see it.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:57Molly O'Shea?

  And I'm not just saying the MMA stuff, but like him, I think he was wakeboarding with an American flag on the fourth of July. Like people just want to see that more.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:06Molly O'Shea?

  You want to talk about rebuilding your aura.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:09Molly O'Shea?

  Be cool.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:11Molly O'Shea?

  I don't know. Do some of that. Get on more podcasts, like, you know, maybe don't bite your tongue so much.

• 38:15Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 38:16Molly O'Shea?

  Because some of them will get you in trouble because with, with someone who operates at such a high level, who's so tech focused and like engineering and in the weeds.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  That's right. He should be loved in your community.

• 38:28Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah, like you should be loved, but you also do miss some of the social.

• 38:32Speaker 00

  The cues.

• 38:33Molly O'Shea?

  Cues and what you probably should say and shouldn't say, but like, you know, he is a quirky guy who's built an incredible, large company and has, you know, impacted many people in many different ways, but.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  It's hard to knock his entrepreneurship, that's for sure.

• 38:46Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah, but like.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  I think everyone agrees with that.

• 38:48Molly O'Shea?

  I just, I wonder like how to build his brand up so he can like, you know, at that certain point, and I'm, I'm curious if you have clients like this, getting burned so much. You don't want to do media. There is no positive benefit for you. So you want to stay hidden.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:07Molly O'Shea?

  How do you like reconcile that tension of like being such a big part of the brand, but like, you know, not wanting to do any of it because you've been burned so much?

• 39:16Speaker 00

  I think there are alternatives to traditional media now to make impressions on your audience. This podcast, for instance, I'm not saying you're not going to ask hard hitting questions, but you're more interested in an interesting conversation for your audience than you are gotching Mark Zuckerberg. So Mark Zuckerberg should come on your podcast.

• 39:35Molly O'Shea?

  I agree.

• 39:36Speaker 00

  But, but there are places and spaces. Most podcasts are run by business people, actually. So there's more empathy there. So I would not put yourself in harm's way. I agree, there are certain journalists and publications, you're never going to get the, you know, the, a fair opportunity, right? But again, you could speak directly to your audience. X, like you said, like American flag on my, you know, whatever surfboard or whatever. Like that's a direct image and message to your people, right? So I think social channels, owned media, podcasts, being on stage, why not? Go on stage at the most impactful gravitas-y business conference there is.

• 40:20Speaker 00

  I mean, you know, when Trump did his, you know, trade stuff and everybody, the whole country, like the stock market tanked and the whole country was worried about it, Scott Besson showed up at the Milken Conference and got on stage and told everybody why it was going to be okay. Masterful.

• 40:37Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 40:38Speaker 00

  Because that conference tends to have a lot of power. CEOs, billionaire investors, tech giants, like everyone talked about it. I really think he just calmed the entire financial ecosystem by doing it. It was so good. So you can really, you can change the tide on something if you perform really well in a situation like that. And I'm sure, Mike Milken was probably the moderator, you know, the moderator is not out to get you.

• 41:09Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah, sometimes.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Sometimes.

• 41:11Molly O'Shea?

  Sometimes you choose the wrong one. Sometimes you go to Dealbook.

• 41:13Speaker 00

  A journalist moderator is, but a Molly moderator isn't, you know? So I think you have to just pick your shots really carefully. And in those moments, I do think you have to have a lot of good advice of like, if you're going to do one thing a year, you're going to do one big impact thing to turn the tide, what's it going to be? I mean, I remember when we did 60 Minutes with Ray Dalio on saving the oceans and, you know, you've got to be worried about that because at the time he ran the biggest hedge fund in the world. Everybody wants to poke the biggest hedge fund in the world. Guess what? The entire thing was just about his philanthropy, saving the oceans, going down in his submarine off his crazy Ocean X yacht. It was positive and everybody thought like, what an amazing human being, saving the oceans,

• 41:58Speaker 00

  like how incredibly serious he was about that philanthropy. So, you know, you can go into high stakes situations. I mean, in the back of the day, 60 Minutes was it, maybe it still is, and you can have a win.

• 42:12Molly O'Shea?

  That's good.

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:14Molly O'Shea?

  So I want to dive back into traditional finance.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  TradFi.

• 42:18Molly O'Shea?

  We're going to go into tradFi.

• 42:19Speaker 00

  We are the New York Stock Exchange.

• 42:21Molly O'Shea?

  I know. Because we talked about some like really good scenarios beforehand. Why don't we just start with the mediaest one? Let's talk about Apollo.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 42:34Molly O'Shea?

  And the resurrection of Apollo.

• 42:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:37Molly O'Shea?

  After the Leon Black era.

• 42:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:39Molly O'Shea?

  How did they do that?

• 42:40Speaker 00

  So I think Apollo always had this sort of like black boxy.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  I don't want to say negative, but like mysterious kind of reputation, which might have served it well back in the day, by the way. But then, you know, as you know, they wanted to become a diversified asset manager and go public, right? So those two things don't really go together. But clearly, you know, it is tough to survive a founder moment like that. Leon Black obviously went down and he went down for some pretty negative stuff. And I think Mark Rowan came in and decided I'm gonna, I'm gonna change the culture and the reputation and the brand of Apollo. So of course, they needed the world to understand,

• 43:29Speaker 00

  we're not just, you know, in credit or whatever they started their business in. We're a, you know, we do all these other things. That's from a business standpoint. But more importantly, I think they had to convince the best people in the world to work there. And they had to convince investors to stay with them. I mean, LPs are extremely sensitive to negative news. Can you imagine Leon Black, what they had to go through?

• 43:51Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  Like keeping their LPs and they are just a rocket ship. He has done an amazing job. I think he's accessible. He shows up places. He's easy to talk to. They have really softened their brand, educated the market. I, I, I think it's an A plus case study in surviving what could have been an existential moment.

• 44:13Molly O'Shea?

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• 44:58Molly O'Shea?

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• 45:43Molly O'Shea?

  What about Mark Rowan, like, like his characteristics? Do you think that it was great he stepped in?

• 45:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I don't know him super well, but people who work under him, respect him and like him. Again, back to the employees, people are always going to ask your employees, what is she really like to work with, right? The vibe is pretty good, but you know, I see him showing up in the circles I show up in. He is out there as the ambassador of Apollo. And again, he comes across as whip smart, but approachable. And I think that's a nice mix.

• 46:19Molly O'Shea?

  What about Ken Griffin of Citadel?

• 46:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I've been watching Citadel really closely the last few years because I feel like they are another one that went from, I mean, they used to call them the, call it the Gulag. I mean, they went from like this reputation of like the worst place to work, quant trading, black boxy, et cetera, to I think so well respected. And I think, again, this is the founder taking the brand and the reputation by the wheel and deciding I'm going to get out there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna showcase not just what Citadel does, but by smarts and policy and politics and economics. I mean, the guy is so amazing to listen to.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  So he creates this, this sort of like impression that like, you know, the pressure that it might be a tough, intense place, but that's going to be good for me. And I'm going to get to work for people like him. And I think he's done that. If you look at their social channels, oh my God, I would have never thought Citadel would have the Instagram they have. It's all happy, smiley people going to work. But I mean, I'm, I'm not making fun of it. I actually think it's extremely well done.

• 47:29Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  So I think this whole like use of social channels, being more transparent, being out speaking in the places and spaces that matter. I really think they've shifted their reputation. I mean, everyone will still say it's one of the toughest places to work on, on, you know, in, in what I'm called Wall Street. But I think it has this sort of different twist, positive twist now that it didn't have before.

• 47:52Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah, they come off completely badass, but like somewhere you are inspired by and you want to go.

• 47:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I think that was the trick back in the day for Bridgewater too. They had a very tough, you know, they had this reputation.

• 48:05Molly O'Shea?

  They're very tough.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  Radical truth and transparency. Everything you do is taped and monitored. And that was all true, but the, the thing was they built a reputation for that radical truth and transparency. There's a reason for it. It leads to the best returns and the best people are down with it because they want to learn. They want to be critiqued.

• 48:25Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  They want to be. So I think that was the twist there. They went from fully, you know, culty, negative reputation to admired and respected. And then of course, you know, Ray had the principles and all that stuff.

• 48:39Molly O'Shea?

  Well, that's a fair point because, I mean, we even see this in the tech world with Anduril. The campaign don't work at Anduril. Like if you can't handle it, like, yeah, just don't work here.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 48:48Molly O'Shea?

  But for finance, super hyper competitive as well. Maybe one of the most competitive places ever. People admire that they want to go work for a competitive firm. Obviously you're going to be slaved away a little bit.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  Who wouldn't go work for Elon?

• 49:03Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  As an engineer.

• 49:05Molly O'Shea?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  You know what you're in for.

• 49:07Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 00

  But who wouldn't want that?

• 49:09Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah, the C E O is sleeping on the floor.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. So I think intensity, I mean, I always say, I had a photographer ask me once, like, how do you want to come across in this picture? And I was like, wow, I never, no one ever asked me that. And I said, I want to be fierce, but approachable. Do those two things go together? Not really, but like, so two things that don't go together can go together. Meaning like rough, intense experience, but best experience of my life can go together.

• 49:40Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah. I was really surprised last year I moderated a panel at the Citadel Securities Conference with Kalshi's co-founders. One, the room, it like, it's beautiful. They had a whole, like the lineup of people that came to speak. I was so nervous.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  They could get anyone.

• 49:59Molly O'Shea?

  Moderate there. This was like the first big moderating thing that I've done. But I'd worked with Kalshi for a bunch, so I was very comfortable with that. But I remember, because I'm putting myself in, in the shoes, okay, like, what if I interviewed Ken Griffin?

• 50:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 50:15Molly O'Shea?

  I'm looking at, I'm watching the moderator on stage. I, I watched that a couple of times afterwards and I'm watching this. I'm like, you know, like Ken's just going to say whatever he wants. You just have to assist him.

• 50:27Speaker 00

  But that's, but that's another great shout out. Like he has something to say.

• 50:33Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 50:34Speaker 00

  And he's pretty direct about it and people love that. What people hate is corporate speak and an empty conversation. And I think that's the balance, right? For a Ken or anyone on stage is like, how do I, I don't want to get myself in trouble. I'm so edgy, but how do I give the gift of insight and straight talk and entertainment, you know, to the audience? So as the moderator, because I do a ton of moderating, that's kind of what I'm trying to draw out of somebody, right? It's like, what's the gift to the audience? What's the insight? What's the takeaway? Right? And, you know, I, I always tell my clients, don't even bother taking the stage if you're going to be empty.

• 51:14Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 51:14Speaker 00

  Because that's a backfire. People remember, they actually remember who's the worst speaker you saw. They really remember and they remember a terrible moderator too.

• 51:24Molly O'Shea?

  Completely.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:25Molly O'Shea?

  Absolutely.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:26Molly O'Shea?

  No, this is a good point too, with the whole podcast movement. If you don't have something to say, I've heard you say this before, don't do it. I, I agree same way. I've had podcasts before. I'm obviously not going to name names or anything, but I'll run through all the questions in 10 minutes. I'm like, well, why aren't you speaking? Like you asked to come on a podcast.

• 51:45Speaker 00

  Yes, it's terrible.

• 51:46Molly O'Shea?

  This is to help you. Like, I'm not a getcha person. I'm just genuinely curious. I want to learn, like, if you're not going to come and speak, like, why are you doing this?

• 51:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:54Molly O'Shea?

  You come and like have something to say.

• 51:57Speaker 00

  That's something people who don't moderate a lot, don't understand. Like you could get through, like, I think like 30 questions is a lot. It's like, no, that could be 15 minutes.

• 52:06Molly O'Shea?

  Yes.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  I got 30 more to go.

• 52:08Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  And guess what? I'm going to off road.

• 52:12Molly O'Shea?

  Yes.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  I'm like, always, I warn people. I'm like, you know, like, I know your comms team gave me this stuff, but I know the most interesting things. I'm not going to embarrass you, but like, let's be interesting on stage, you know? We're going to off road.

• 52:25Molly O'Shea?

  There was one time I was talking to this very big A I company on stage at their, their, again, not going to name names at their. Their office to a room of VCs, GPs, some founders. And it was just corporate answer after corporate answer. There was no answer and they were all very short. I'm like, you know what? Like, again, we kind of ran out of questions.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:49Molly O'Shea?

  You all signed NDAs. I'm going to start asking some questions.

• 52:52Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, and they all signed NDAs. That's crazy.

• 52:55Molly O'Shea?

  It was wild. But to go through some more examples, we have a short bit. I think we have a couple of minutes left. Let's talk. We talked about Bridgewater. We talked about Citadel. We talked about Apollo. I want to talk about Blackstone.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  I knew you were going to get there. Okay.

• 53:10Molly O'Shea?

  Blackstone is, I don't know what it is, but they've created kind of a fun, fun brand because they do some quirky stuff. So what's going on there?

• 53:18Speaker 00

  So first of all, they are the brand fascination of everyone. They've done a great job. First of all, they were early. I just want to say, I always make the point because people are like, why is Blackstone this? These were early marketers. They had a marketing mentality early. But, you know, first big move was like when they went public, they had to speak to more audiences, right? You have to like worry about, you know, your investors, retail, institutional, the whole thing. But then the next move was like, let's get into retail early. So people often roll their eyes on the John Gray running videos or whatever. Brilliant. Cheapest marketing ever on LinkedIn gets to every financial advisor in the country

• 54:03Speaker 00

  and it worked.

• 54:04Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  And so they're spending very little money to reach everybody. They did it early. They were the pioneer. They were unafraid to do their holiday video and their this, that. I think the holiday video is more of a culture play.

• 54:17Molly O'Shea?

  It's kind of a meme.

• 54:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, but they, they are really smart. They don't do anything without strategy, right? So like people who don't understand what Blackstone is today, don't get the running videos. But people who do get, this is a retail juggernaut that started early and has probably been most successful. And they are doing high net worth and FA marketing. That's what they're doing.

• 54:43Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating to see, I think they're a good example of how audiences shifted over time as they expand out.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 54:51Molly O'Shea?

  Their categories of what they're offering.

• 54:53Speaker 00

  And I would also say John Gray kind of represents the leadership people want today. Like killer, serious and smart, but kind of again, approachable, funny, not afraid to make fun of himself. Like these are attributes that are attractive to people.

• 55:11Molly O'Shea?

  We have to, like, we have to talk about this, though, because sometimes people will take the authentic route and like, oh, we're cool. Like, we can do a chill video. We can do something a little funny.

• 55:21Speaker 00

  And it goes the wrong way.

• 55:22Molly O'Shea?

  And it's just so cringe.

• 55:24Speaker 00

  Well, you know what? This is when it comes back to advisors, like you have to have people who tell you the truth because God forbid you think something's cool. And it's not. And it can be embarrassing for a long time and these things live on forever. And obviously they catch fire if it's straight. I mean, if it's cringe, it's one thing. If it's inappropriate, it can really bury you.

• 55:48Molly O'Shea?

  Right.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:50Molly O'Shea?

  So one of the most, I'd say, you're probably experiencing this, most interested asset classes to come to build their brands, to do this marketing, to be external is VC.

• 56:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:04Molly O'Shea?

  I get a lot of inbounds about it. I'm sure you're doing that. You're opening an SF office.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 56:09Molly O'Shea?

  Like, there is so much going on there and they kind of do the same thing. But there's like many different types of brands, right? Like you have A16Z.

• 56:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 56:20Molly O'Shea?

  They're literally a media company.

• 56:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:21Molly O'Shea?

  They will say that.

• 56:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:22Molly O'Shea?

  You have Thrive, who's the kind of the quiet luxury of VC. They're a little bit mysterious.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 56:28Molly O'Shea?

  Josh completely crushes it. Like he's the idol. They probably have the biggest aura. Everyone wants to get funding from them.

• 56:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:34Molly O'Shea?

  People want to work there. They've built this really interesting brand with very little content.

• 56:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 56:40Molly O'Shea?

  And then there's like some other types out there that kind of do the same playbook.

• 56:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 56:43Molly O'Shea?

  Have a podcast, that do conferences, that do these like hackathon type of things. So what are you seeing in the VC market?

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Overall, I'm seeing, I would say about four years ago, you know, we've always had, private equity has been pretty early to all of this marketing because they have portfolio companies that are in consumer and tech and healthcare. And those are sophisticated brand firms. So they understand the value. They also obviously want to build value into what they're buying and increase the value so they could sell it, so they get that brand as part of the equation. VC was doing stuff, but kind of like not as sophisticated as I think they are now. So like, we have a lot more of VC clients than we ever had and they all kind of popped in in the last four years.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  I think it comes down to like, what do you want to be in the market and what are you trying to accomplish and which avenues fit your culture, your comfort level and what you're good at, right? Like John Gray's running videos is a great example. I mean, I think if he actually likes to run in cities all over the world, it's real. You can't copycat that now, but it was like a simple execution, right? So I agree. I think Andreessen is a media company and that's the route that they've taken. And, you know, I am sure that they are getting business impact from what they're doing there, where the other firms have different styles. So I think it's really about how do you want to be thought of? What do you want your brand to stand for?

• 58:20Speaker 00

  And if, you know, great content and being a media company is part of that, that's great. But if it's not, you need to choose something else.

• 58:28Molly O'Shea?

  What can they learn from TradFi?

• 58:30Speaker 00

  Like, like, here's a great example. Like the Allen and Company Conference. I don't think Allen and Company is in the news. They do one thing really well and they got known for it. That's amazing.

• 58:43Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 58:44Speaker 00

  They're a convening brand, right? I mean, so I don't, I actually almost do no media myself, partially because the media doesn't like to write about PR firms, but partially because I discovered that convening founders is my superpower and giving the gift of a network to people who need more network is the most valuable thing I could do in the world. And I always say selling is giving to receive. I gift, gift, gift, and then surprise, I get something back because I've done something for someone, right? So convening and moderating have been my chosen, you know, ways I'm going to build my brand and market. So I think it's all choices, but the choices have to be comfortable and they have to be on brand for who you are.

• 59:28Molly O'Shea?

  Allen and Company is a good example.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:30Molly O'Shea?

  They've built out like a very mysterious.

• 59:34Speaker 00

  Early.

• 59:34Molly O'Shea?

  Kind of.

• 59:35Speaker 00

  Everybody would, everyone wants to copy it, but they can't.

• 59:37Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:39Molly O'Shea?

  And what do you think is the point at which these VC firms are doing too much? Because they will kind of just be like, give me the whole buffet.

• 59:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think overexposure is generally bad, right? The moment your audiences or anyone is eye rolling you for being everywhere and overexposed, I think you've done something wrong. I actually think, I always tell smaller clients, do one quality thing a quarter and build the muscle for doing that on a repetitive basis. Watch how LLMs start to describe you. Is it making an impact? Like, you don't have to do, I mean, the most embarrassing thing is like these posts with like three likes.

• 1:00:22Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  I mean, think about yourself like a teenager. Would you be happy with three likes? I don't understand why you keep putting out this content with three likes. So I'll be the person in the room to be like, could we stop with this? You know, because it's just, it's not a good look.

• 1:00:38Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah. I mean, it's been interesting to see how some of them pop up, pop out, the different strategies changing.

• 1:00:46Speaker 00

  I do think for VCs, though, like private equity, deal sourcing is everything, right? Like, why does a founder want to work with you? Why do I want your check versus somebody else's? And that's really the question. How are you appealing to those founders? Because if you, you know, whether, I think it's raising money is one lifeblood, but the other lifeblood is like, do those entrepreneurs want to work with you and why? And like, I would want to unpack all of that, you know? That's really important.

• 1:01:17Molly O'Shea?

  It's a really good point because, I mean, I, I talked to all these different firms. They ask for help. They ask for advice.

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Molly O'Shea?

  Some of them have the world's best performance.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:27Molly O'Shea?

  But no one knows who they are.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:29Molly O'Shea?

  I went and I went to Excel. I'm like, I have, I don't know who your partners are. Like, I know of Excel, but like, it seems like, you know, something I knew about five years ago, not today. It's not really relevant today. It's okay, I said that. But, you know, I went and I talked to them. I met with them. Their team is awesome. They're so cool. They won the cursor deal because they just had a really good internal reputation.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Molly O'Shea?

  And so at that point, it's like, how much does internal reputation matter more than external reputation?

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  Like, so like, I think one of the most powerful things you can do, whether you're a VC, a PE firm or, or me, get on stage with your portfolio company and tell the story, how you came together, why you came together, what you've been able to do. Like, let the audience see the chemistry. Let the audience see the excitement by the portfolio company of like, you could, it's like, you don't have to say a word. You can tell the body language, like these people have transformed this company, right? So I think there are all kinds of ways to showcase things subtly.

• 1:02:33Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:34Speaker 00

  And that's one of those subtle ones. You know, people just rock up because they want to see the conversation. But you're really sending a lot of messages there. You're sending a message about what a great partner you are.

• 1:02:44Molly O'Shea?

  What's interesting is because I came from the investor side. I've been investing my whole career. Now I've been interviewing and I'm much more a founder now.

• 1:02:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:02:53Molly O'Shea?

  And I like, kind of see myself more in the founder realm than on the investor side. I see the complete bifurcation of how each one of each other like carries the weight. And so the more I see VC content of celebrating themselves, the more I cringe because it's like, you didn't do any, I mean, you gave them a check, but like, oh my God, I can't believe how much the founder went through.

• 1:03:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:15Molly O'Shea?

  And so like, it's just interesting to see that some VCs still will take credit for the success of the founder in the company.

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  Delicate balance.

• 1:03:27Molly O'Shea?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:03:28Molly O'Shea?

  Do you see that often?

• 1:03:29Speaker 00

  Sure. Yeah, sure. And I think you have to be very careful about, always you have to be very careful about amplifying, giving yourself too much credit for something you've done. You're better off being a little humble.

• 1:03:41Molly O'Shea?

  Yeah, this is where the chief EQ officer comes in.

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:03:45Molly O'Shea?

  So as we close out.

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:46Molly O'Shea?

  I have to ask you. Maybe you have an answer for this, maybe you don't.

• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:03:50Molly O'Shea?

  What is your hottest take right now?

• 1:03:52Speaker 00

  My hottest take, meaning something I'm obsessed with or?

• 1:03:56Molly O'Shea?

  It could be anything. It could be like, you know, a strong opinion on how people are, you know, communicating who should do it better.

• 1:04:03Speaker 00

  I would call it, watch your digital blink.

• 1:04:07Molly O'Shea?

  Okay.

• 1:04:07Speaker 00

  If you're my generation, you read a book called, by Malcolm Gladwell called Blink. It basically says people will size you up in 15 seconds or less. Now it's a digital blink. Like if I don't know Molly O'Shea, I'm going to ask my LLM, what's she all about? That's my digital blink. That's what I think about you. That impression now is lodged, going to be very hard to change it. Like you just said about the company that you were talking about, like, if you're out of date, if that impression online is out of date or negative or doesn't represent you, oh my gosh, get it done. So I would just say the digital blink is everything right now.

• 1:04:49Molly O'Shea?

  It's a great place to end.

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Molly O'Shea?

  Well, Jen, this was so much fun. I could probably talk to you for hours.

• 1:04:54Speaker 00

  I could.

• 1:04:54Molly O'Shea?

  I know we're on a time constraint, but we'll probably do this again. So thank you so much.

• 1:04:57Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:04:58Molly O'Shea?

  Hey, it's Molly. If you enjoy our interviews, check out our newsletter, sorcery.vc, where we deliver a once a week top deals and tech headlines email and also go deeper on our podcast interviews. Subscribe to Sorcery today and don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen. Link in description to sign up.