249: Even Today, Why "About Face" is The Benchmark for Leadership. A re-visit, Including Foreword by Jocko

0:00:00 - Opening. Jocko's foundations of leadership. The Foreword for the new release of "About Face". 0:40:43 - Discussion 0:46:43 - Lessons from Hackworth still applicable today. 1:20:08 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:27:42 - How to stay on THE PATH. 1:58:40 - Closing gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 249 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:12Jocko Willink?

  One SEAL KIA is inbound to Camp Ramadi.

• 0:19Jocko Willink?

  KIA.

• 0:22Jocko Willink?

  Killed in action.

• 0:25Jocko Willink?

  When the call came over the radio from the Army Company Commander who was supporting my SEALs in the field, I felt instantly nauseous. I wanted to throw up.

• 0:37Jocko Willink?

  But I knew I had to remain calm. I had to keep my emotions in check. As the Commander of SEAL Team 3 Task Unit Bruiser, I knew the whole Tactical Operations Center and my entire task unit would be watching my reaction to this. So I took a breath and did my best to seem composed and in control.

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  Beyond that, I wasn't quite sure how to react. Or what to say. Or what to do. This SEAL

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  soon reported as Mark Allen Lee, the first SEAL killed in Iraq.

• 1:20Jocko Willink?

  He was shot and killed while assaulting a building in South Central Ramadi on August 2nd, 2006.

• 1:28Jocko Willink?

  A hero.

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  Young.

• 1:35Jocko Willink?

  And full of love and life and spirit and now in an instant.

• 1:43Jocko Willink?

  Gone.

• 1:47Jocko Willink?

  SEALs had been fighting in Iraq for more than three years. At this point. There had been some casualties, but no SEALs had been killed.

• 1:59Jocko Willink?

  And no SEAL from SEAL Team 3, which was formed in 1983, had ever been killed in action.

• 2:07Jocko Willink?

  While other SEALs from other teams had been lost in Afghanistan, no one above me in the immediate chain of command had ever been in sustained intense combat, much less suffered their men being killed.

• 2:21Jocko Willink?

  Even though we had drilled the tactical mechanics of how to react when a man was lost, we had never trained for how to handle death from a leadership perspective.

• 2:34Jocko Willink?

  No one had ever even discussed it with me.

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  There was no guidance from my senior officers on the matter. I had to get my guidance from somewhere else.

• 2:47Jocko Willink?

  So I turned to a man who had offered me so much valuable advice about war and about leadership.

• 2:56Jocko Willink?

  I turned to Colonel David Hackworth and his book About Face.

• 3:04Jocko Willink?

  "In its well-worn pages, I found the counsel I needed." Quote, "The fact is, generally, there's no timeout for mourning on the battlefield.

• 3:16Jocko Willink?

  But it's really no different than the father of ten who comes home to find his house on fire with all of his kids sleeping inside. He doesn't stop and cry over the first child he finds dead. To do so would be to sign a death warrant for the other nine."

• 3:32Jocko Willink?

  A commanding officer is often in the same situation.

• 3:36Jocko Willink?

  "To do anything but continue on would be complete dereliction of duty and in the larger picture could possibly lead to even worse carnage among his troops.

• 3:49Jocko Willink?

  So you do what you have to do, and only later, when things settle down, do you allow yourself to grieve?" End quote.

• 3:59Jocko Willink?

  Like I had many times before, I followed the guidance of Colonel Hackworth.

• 4:06Jocko Willink?

  The Battle of Ramadi was not going to stop.

• 4:10Jocko Willink?

  There were still missions that needed to be conducted, still enemy that needed to be killed. I told the task unit that we would do the only thing we could do, the only thing we should do, and the only thing Mark would want us to do. Put on our gear, lock and load our weapons, and go back to work.

• 4:31Jocko Willink?

  Do our duty.

• 4:36Jocko Willink?

  The men understood this seemingly harsh course of action.

• 4:42Jocko Willink?

  And that was exactly what we did. Everyone accepted this direction from me, not because of my rank or my position, but because they knew something fundamental about me, that despite my hardened demeanor and my measured emotions, they knew I cared about them more than anything else in the world.

• 5:04Jocko Willink?

  This feeling came to me instinctively, but it had been reinforced over and over again by what I had read in the pages of About Face.

• 5:14Jocko Willink?

  Colonel Hackworth's commitment to his men was one of the primary reasons I related to his book.

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  He wrote, quote, "The thing was, you had to look after your soldiers." It was true that a commanding officer's first priority was the mission, but a conflicting requirement was the welfare of the men. It was true that the whole purpose of the military establishment was to get a doe-foot eyeball to eyeball with the enemy. And it was equally true that the troops were the ones who paid the price in blood for an objective secured.

• 5:51Jocko Willink?

  These facts made and make an infantry commanding officer a hanging judge. He has incredible power over the lives and deaths, not only of a faceless enemy, but of his men.

• 6:05Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes, that power causes a leader to become hardened. He stops seeing his troops as human beings. They become faceless assets to him. He becomes afraid to get close or feel, instead constructing a concrete barrier in his head to keep out the guilt and pain of lives lost at his behest.

• 6:27Jocko Willink?

  In the process, he forgets that though he may give the orders, it is the soldier who makes them happen.

• 6:35Jocko Willink?

  Or doesn't.

• 6:37Jocko Willink?

  He forgets that if you want 100% from a trooper, you have to give him 200% as a commander.

• 6:45Jocko Willink?

  End quote.

• 6:47Jocko Willink?

  That was Hackworth's standard. You had to give 200% to your men. You had to give them everything you had.

• 6:57Jocko Willink?

  I strived for that standard my whole career.

• 7:02Jocko Willink?

  I had spent my entire adult life in the SEAL teams. Like Colonel Hackworth, I'd come up through the ranks, spending my first eight years as an enlisted SEAL before eventually being selected for a commissioning program and becoming a SEAL officer.

• 7:17Jocko Willink?

  I worked hard.

• 7:20Jocko Willink?

  But that was in the 1990s. There was no war to fight, so we trained and trained and trained even more. When we deployed around the globe, we trained other countries' troops. But we didn't fight.

• 7:34Jocko Willink?

  September 11th, 2001 changed all that. The war kicked off in Afghanistan in 2001, and by 2003, the focus had shifted to Iraq. My first combat deployment was as a SEAL platoon commander in Baghdad from the autumn of 2003 into the spring of 2004. My platoon conducted dynamic direct action missions and captured killed scores of enemy personnel. We were also ambushed a few times and shot at with RPGs and machine guns. We returned fire at suspected enemy positions or at muzzle flashes we saw in darkened alleyways, windows, or doorways. During that deployment, only one SEAL on patrol with me was wounded,

• 8:19Jocko Willink?

  shot in the head. Luckily, it was just a ricochet that had enough energy to puncture his skin, but not enough to puncture his skull. It left nothing but a minor wound. In the end, Baghdad felt more like an exciting adventure for me and my platoon than a war. I returned from that deployment feeling as if we had done our share. I even felt some arrogance starting to creep into my head, as if we had tamed war.

• 8:49Jocko Willink?

  But that arrogance was kept in check by a reminder that lived in another corner of my mind. Yes, we had done our job. Yes, we had executed our missions. Yes, we had been to war.

• 9:01Jocko Willink?

  But it was not the same as the wars I had read about over the years. Being a SEAL and a professional military man, I had read many books about war. Those books reminded me that what we had been through in Baghdad was no Omaha Beach or Guadalcanal. It wasn't the chosen reservoir or the Incheon landing. It was no Idrang Valley or Battle of Way City. Nothing I experienced on my first deployment to Iraq was even close to the level of combat detailed in the books I had read. Of course, technically, what I had been through was classified as war. But for my SEAL platoon in Baghdad in 2003 and

• 9:44Jocko Willink?

  2004, conducting short and simple operations with a huge tactical advantage over a disorganized and untrained enemy, our experience was as forgiving and benign as war could be.

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  I was lucky.

• 10:00Jocko Willink?

  But my next deployment to the capital city of Al-Anbar Province, a city known as Ramadi, was different. When we arrived in the spring of 2006, it was a complete war zone. Vehicles mangled by roadside bombs littered the streets. Many buildings were reduced to rubble and almost every building was pockmarked with machine gun bullet holes. But the clearest indicator of the level of violence in Ramadi was the casualties. Every day, American soldiers or Marines were wounded or killed. Every single day.

• 10:42Jocko Willink?

  I had spent almost 16 years training and preparing for this deployment to Ramadi. First, I had completed the Basic SEAL Training Course, known as BUDs, or Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL Training. But that training was simply a weeding out process to get rid of the men who didn't really want to be there. Almost no tactical lessons are learned there, other than to suffer in silence. After BUDs, I went through SEAL Tactical Training, or STT, which later became known as SQT, or the SEAL Qualification Training.

• 11:19Jocko Willink?

  During that training, I began to learn the individual tactical skills I needed to perform my duties as a SEAL. Once I completed that training, I was assigned to a SEAL platoon where my real learning began.

• 11:34Jocko Willink?

  I finally became part of a team where working together was the only way to achieve mission success. We learned how to fire and maneuver. We learned the fundamental tactics of gunfighting. We learned how to conduct ambushes and raids and assaults on buildings and oil platforms and ships at sea.

• 11:52Jocko Willink?

  Surprisingly, unlike in the Army or the Marine Corps where there are written instructions on how to do almost anything, in the SEAL teams, most of what we learned was not taught from a book or a field manual. It was passed down by word of mouth, just as it had been for decades, by more experienced platoon members and the SEAL instructor cadre.

• 12:15Jocko Willink?

  I was lucky enough to learn from some of the older Vietnam era SEALs. But by that time, the early 90s, most of the Vietnam veterans were gone and with them, almost all the real world combat experience was gone as well. So while the training was good, there were some disconnects between the simulated training combat we conducted and what war was actually like. In the 12 years prior to my deployment to Baghdad, I had done multiple training cycles and deployments and had even served as an instructor cadre myself, teaching the skills I had learned. All those years of experience prepared me as well as they could have for my deployment as a platoon commander to Baghdad.

• 12:59Jocko Willink?

  Upon my return to America after that deployment, I did another training cycle to prepare to deploy back to Iraq, this time to Ramadi in charge of two SEAL platoons that made up Task Unit Bruiser.

• 13:13Jocko Willink?

  Surprisingly, during all those years of training, I had received very little leadership instruction. There was no SEAL doctrine about leadership. We attended no classes on the subject, nor did we follow any specific leadership protocol. We were simply expected to learn it through OJT, on-the-job training, passed on by word of mouth, the same way we acquired our bulk of tactical knowledge.

• 13:41Jocko Willink?

  We also learned very little about war beyond straightforward tactical knowledge: how to shoot, move, and communicate inside a SEAL platoon. Sure, we learned the mechanics of battlefield maneuvers, but we didn't talk about fear and stress. We didn't learn about the psychological impact of combat, or the emotional shock of the horrors of war. No one counseled me on the human capacity for evil, or the human capacity for good.

• 14:10Jocko Willink?

  I was never taught about human nature, which is revealed in its rawest form on the battlefield. And while I didn't know what I didn't know, I could sense there was a gap between what we learned about tactics and what I truly needed to know in order to effectively lead men into combat. I tried to close that gap in knowledge by reading.

• 14:34Jocko Willink?

  I read everything I could get my hands on about war. But I didn't concentrate on the broad strategic and political aspects of war. Sure, I studied why heads of states made decisions. I read about presidents and prime ministers and four-star generals and admirals. But I focused most intently on first-person accounts, the actual experiences of those frontline men who did the fighting, then the junior and non-commissioned officers who led them.

• 15:04Jocko Willink?

  The men storming the beaches assaulting enemy machine gun nests and patrolling through jungles laced with booby traps. What they did, how they did it, what they felt, I read and read and read. The authors of these books became my teachers.

• 15:24Jocko Willink?

  At some point, and I can't remember exactly when it was, I stumbled upon a book that changed the way I thought about war and leadership and life. In fact, it changed the way I thought about everything. That book was About Face by David Hackworth, a retired Colonel who had joined the Army just after World War II, was battlefield commissioned in Korea, served multiple tours in Vietnam, and who became one of the most highly decorated soldiers of all time.

• 15:55Jocko Willink?

  By the time he retired, he was a master tactician. He understood battlefield terrain. He knew how to maneuver combat elements on the battlefield, but more important than any of those accolades, awards, and skills, Colonel David Hackworth knew people, and he knew how to lead.

• 16:16Jocko Willink?

  When I take stock of everything that I have learned in my life about war, about strategy and tactics, about human nature, and about leadership, it is Colonel Hackworth's book that is the clear wellspring for so much of that knowledge. And of all the warriors, heroes, and leaders who I have known and who have mentored me over the years, it is this man, Colonel David Hackworth, a man whom I've never met, that provided me with the most guidance and was always there to coach, train, mentor me through the words he wrote in About Face. I read this book at every opportunity during the Battle of Ramadi. In its pages, I

• 16:57Jocko Willink?

  found the instruction I needed. It was next to my cot in camp, and if I wasn't in the field, the end of every day was spent learning from this book.

• 17:10Jocko Willink?

  I could open the book to any section, read a few pages and relate what I read to what I was living, leadership in the harshest environment. Without question, my leadership style, my tactical knowledge, the decisions I've made, and my view of the world has been shaped through the lens of

• 17:29Jocko Willink?

  Colonel Hackworth did not only affect my life and career in the military. After leaving the Navy, I started a leadership consulting company, have authored many books of my own, speak regularly about leadership, have a popular leadership podcast, and continue to teach leadership. Let there be no doubt, everything I've written and all the leadership lessons I espouse are all rooted in About Face. What makes that fact even more interesting is that About Face is not meant to be a leadership book. It was not written for the purpose of teaching leadership. It is an autobiography. It simply tells the story of Colonel Hackworth's

• 18:13Jocko Willink?

  life and experiences. But wrapped in that story and those experiences is a complete manifesto on leadership and human nature. But even with all those powerful lessons to teach, Colonel Hackworth was not always the easiest mentor to follow. When I first started to speak of him to fellow service members, he was not viewed in a universally positive way. In the Navy, among many senior officers that I encountered, Colonel Hackworth was viewed with a strong sense of disdain. In 1996, Hackworth wrote an article about then Chief of Naval Operations Admiral J.

• 18:55Jocko Willink?

  Borda, charging the Admiral with wearing a medal on his uniform that he did not rate, a Navy Commendation Medal with the Combat Distinguishing Device, also known as the Combat V. The Combat V is awarded only when there is direct combat with the enemy. While Admiral Borda did serve honorably aboard a US Navy warship during the Vietnam War, he was never in direct combat. When Admiral Borda committed suicide in the aftermath of the investigation, some blamed Colonel Hackworth for the Admiral's death.

• 19:31Jocko Willink?

  Well, I understood the grief around the Admiral's death. I also saw Hackworth's perspective.

• 19:38Jocko Willink?

  For Colonel Hackworth, the combat infantryman was sacred. He had watched men on the front line serve and sacrifice life and limb in two wars. To Colonel Hackworth, the Admiral wearing an award he did not merit was an affront to every man that had ever seen close combat with the enemy.

• 20:00Jocko Willink?

  Hackworth could not and would not let that stand.

• 20:05Jocko Willink?

  But the fallout from the article Colonel Hackworth wrote left a small tribe of senior naval officers with a strong aversion to Hackworth and his perspectives. Some Army leadership also disliked Hackworth and disparaged him when I brought up his name. While they wouldn't quite call him a turncoat, some Army soldiers viewed the end of Hackworth's career in the service and his subsequent participation in the anti-nuclear movement a slap in the face of the US Army, the US military, and America.

• 20:39Jocko Willink?

  His parting shot while on active duty was an interview with ABC News correspondent Howard Tucker for the show Issues and Answers, in which Colonel Hackworth skewered much of the civilian and military leadership, their understanding of strategy and tactics, and their gross misconduct of the war. He bluntly put the blood of American servicemen on the senior leader's hands. Quote, "I don't feel that too many division commanders or even separate brigade commanders really understood the name of the game," he said.

• 21:13Jocko Willink?

  Did you, did this mean more US casualties, this misunderstanding of the name of the game, as you put it, Mr. Tucker asked? Absolutely, absolutely, Hackworth responded.

• 21:27Jocko Willink?

  It is easy for many to see this as insubordination, to view Hackworth as a rebellious mutineer trying to denigrate the military system.

• 21:36Jocko Willink?

  But I saw something different. I saw a man who had dedicated his entire life to the service of his country and to his army, a man who cared deeply about the men in his charge and every man who wore the cloth of the nation, a man who had seen too many of those men fed into the meat grinder that was the war in Vietnam, and for what? He failed to see any progress in the Vietnam War and he failed to see any way to achieve victory as long as the military continued with the same ineffective strategies and tactics. He could not stand to watch the suffering and needless death anymore.

• 22:15Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't at all that he hated the army, the military, or the country. It was that he loved them all too much. So he spoke the truth.

• 22:28Jocko Willink?

  But the sting of this interview and of his attitude after he was shuffled out of the army left a mark, a mark of resentment that was passed on to the army and the military, and a resentment that was alive and well when I discovered Hackworth and About Face.

• 22:43Jocko Willink?

  So it was not always a pleasant task to carry the flag and be a follower of Hackworth.

• 22:50Jocko Willink?

  Fortunately, Hackworth's lessons stand the test of time against any naysayer, and this book is absolutely filled with his lessons.

• 23:00Jocko Willink?

  But the lessons are not only about war. While the subtitle of About Face is "The Odyssey of an American Warrior", it could also be aptly subtitled "Comprehensive Lessons in Leadership, Battlefield Tactics, Strategy, Command and Control, and the Essence of Human Nature."

• 23:22Jocko Willink?

  Well, it might seem impossible that any book could contain so much knowledge. About face does just that. Every page is dense with lessons that provide guidance on leadership, combat, human interaction, and just about every other aspect of life.

• 23:39Jocko Willink?

  And I followed that guidance. In fact, I often say that much of what I learned and teach as a leader, I stole from Colonel Hackworth. When Hackworth took over Fox Company in Korea, he immediately changed its name from Fox Company to Fighter Company. Quote, "Fox Company was dead," I told them. "From this moment on, we were Fighter. The troops got a charge out of it," end quote. He did the same thing as a battalion commander in Vietnam. When he took command of the 439th Battalion, it had no unit identity. He promptly changed its name to the Hardcore and began to call the troops "Rakandos."

• 24:24Jocko Willink?

  I followed his example. When I became a task unit commander at SEAL Team 3 in the spring of 2005, my task unit was assigned the generic title Bravo, a name simply taken from the phonetic alphabet to designate us as the second of three task units at SEAL Team 3, the other two being Alpha and Charlie. In our first meeting as a task unit, I let everyone know that we were no longer Task Unit Bravo.

• 24:54Jocko Willink?

  We were Task Unit Bruiser. I saw faces change almost before my eyes as we began to take on the personality of our namesake. Like Colonel Hackworth had taught me, the troops got a charge out of it.

• 25:10Jocko Willink?

  I also knew that Colonel Hackworth had a methodology around building relationships. He knew that too much familiarity out of the gate with the troops could cause problems in the chain of command. He ensured that the first impression he made with new men was that the mission and the business of soldiering and leading was paramount.

• 25:29Jocko Willink?

  So he showed no signs of friendliness when he first met his troops. Quote, "For the first month I was with the unit, I refused to crack a smile," said Hackworth of joining his battalion in Vietnam. "I did the same thing with task unit Bruiser. There were no smiles from me when we first formed up. The men knew from the beginning that the business of war came first."

• 25:53Jocko Willink?

  These were some of the countless leadership techniques I took from Colonel Hackworth. Hackworth was also a champion of discipline. He kept his uniform squared away and wore a high and tight haircut. "I always kept my dress uniforms pristine and my hair inspection-ready."

• 26:12Jocko Willink?

  Colonel Hackworth was an avid supporter of snipers. He invested heavily in them in his battalion in Vietnam and understood their impact. "I did the same thing in Ramadi, utilizing our SEAL snipers to flip the script and turn my troops into the hunters," he said of the hunted.

• 26:30Jocko Willink?

  I also followed his lead when it came to training troops. Quote, "I wanted each unit trained so well that a PFC could take a platoon and run it," wrote Colonel Hackworth about training. "I strive for the same goal and I often had my junior men run training operations." He also wrote, quote, "I'd have one platoon aggress against another and then reverse them until they were masters of both attack and defense procedures," end quote. In the SEAL teams, we called this force-on-force training. And because of Hackworth, I made that type of training paramount for my troops.

• 27:10Jocko Willink?

  In my final years in the SEAL teams, I codified the essential elements of what I'd learned into what I ended up calling the laws of combat. Cover and move, simple, prioritize and execute, and decentralized command. Those four laws became part of the SEAL leadership doctrine. They also became the basis of the principles I teach to leaders in business and other organizations around the world. Those principles are all rooted in lessons I learned from About Face.

• 27:41Jocko Willink?

  The first law of combat is cover and move. In a gunfight, this means one person or squad or platoon shooting at the enemy to keep the enemy's heads down, which is known as suppressive fire, so the other person or squad or platoon can maneuver.

• 27:55Jocko Willink?

  Hackworth cites this principle again and again with statements like, quote, "While the others laid down a good base of fire," or "Tying down the enemy while providing a base of fire, and one man providing covering fire as the other edge close enough to flip in a frag." Statements like that, repeated throughout about face, made me realize that the number one law of combat was that people have to cover and move for one another. To be alone on the battlefield was to die alone.

• 28:25Jocko Willink?

  But this law does not only apply to the battlefield, it applies to any team or organization. Teams have to work together to support one another. Cover and move means teamwork, and it is critical for the success of any team. The second law of combat is simple. Plans must be simple and straightforward so that every person on the team understands the plan and knows how to execute it. Simple plans will also hold up under the chaos and stress of combat. Complex plans will fall apart. Colonel Hackworth believed in keeping things simple while planning a mission to destroy an enemy supply depot that consisted of caves, deep behind enemy lines that heavy artillery and air power failed to eliminate.

• 29:10Jocko Willink?

  Colonel Hackworth knew keeping things simple was a necessity. Quote, "During an aerial recon, I found the simplest way to make the raid. We'd wade up the center of that creek, it would cover any noise and simplify navigation." End quote. Not only do plans need to be simple, but communication needs to be simple as well. If a leader gives direction in complicated and convoluted language, the direction will not be understood. Simple, clear, concise language is required so team members understand. Colonel Hackworth knew this. While preparing to lead an operation in Vietnam's mountainous highland terrain, he knew it would be disastrous for his men to carry too much gear and equipment.

• 29:55Jocko Willink?

  So he let the men know what was most important. Quote, "The single order was a simple one, lighten up." End quote. Keeping things simple is an age-old military maxim that applies to any organization in any arena. Colonel Hackworth knew this to be the truth. Keep it simple.

• 30:18Jocko Willink?

  The third law of combat is prioritize and execute. There will be multiple problems on the battlefield. If a leader tries to solve all those problems at once, his resources will be spread too thin, and he will fail at solving any of them.

• 30:36Jocko Willink?

  So a leader has to prioritize what the biggest problem is, and then execute on solving that problem first before moving on to the next biggest problem. One of the most obvious examples of this is tending to wounded men. As Colonel Hackworth advises, quote, "In a hot firefight, a rifle platoon can take 10 casualties before you can cry medic." And if you multiply by 10 the one rifleman who falls out to look after his buddy, suddenly you've lost the guts of the platoon's firepower. A leader cannot give the enemy the initiative by allowing his unit to become ineffective as a result of care for the wounded becoming the first priority.

• 31:19Jocko Willink?

  "Any other course carried not only the risk of failure to accomplish the mission, but also the loss of a hell of a lot more men than necessary." End quote. The idea of prioritize and execute does not only apply to the battlefield. It also applies to business and life. Taking on too many projects or trying to multitask across a wide number of undertakings simultaneously will result in failure. Leaders cannot allow that to happen. Instead, a leader must do as Colonel Hackworth did. Prioritize and execute.

• 31:59Jocko Willink?

  The last law of combat is decentralized command, allowing subordinate leaders to lead. This is fundamental to the success of any military unit or team. Subordinate leaders need to understand the mission, the goal, the end state, the parameters they are allowed to work within, what the overall intent of the mission is, and, most important, why they are doing what they are doing. Then they have to be given the authority and the autonomy to go and execute. A failure to work with this mentality is disastrous. As Hackworth explains in About Face, "In this, the third year of the war, whether or not to hold a pimple of a hill became an issue for the Eighth Army, the Pentagon, and sometimes the President.

• 32:44Jocko Willink?

  The only problem was that while those guys hemmed and hawed over whether to withdraw or reinforce, down at the cutting edge, American soldiers died. It would become known as 'centralization.'" Centralization does not work, not on the battlefield, not in business, not in life. Leaders cannot hold the reins of command too tight. Leaders have to let their people lead. These were not the only lessons I learned from Colonel Hackworth. He taught me about discipline and fear, building relationships, playing the game, when to break the rules, the list goes on and on.

• 33:27Jocko Willink?

  Colonel Hackworth also taught me about things that I shouldn't do, from areas where he fell short. Sometimes he lost his temper, or let his ego drive his actions. Sometimes he lashed out at people when he should have kept his mouth shut. Sometimes he broke rules that he shouldn't have broken. His family life, while he was on active duty, was less than ideal. But even when Colonel Hackworth wasn't right, he was humble and honest about it, which meant I could still learn from him. Even in his mistakes, he mentored me.

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  Over time, although I knew he wasn't perfect, I put Colonel Hackworth on a pedestal. But as he taught me, I was always questioning both myself and others. I didn't want to fall victim to what he said in About Face was among the biggest mistakes of the war, which was that, quote, "Politicians only listen to these generals and these generals only listen to themselves," end quote. So I always wondered what the people who actually knew and worked with Colonel Hackworth really thought of him. I was lucky to be able to have that question answered when I had the honor of interviewing retired Brigadier General James H. Mukuyama for an episode of my podcast.

• 34:45Jocko Willink?

  General Mukuyama had an incredible career, one of the highlights of which was serving as a company commander for Colonel Hackworth in Vietnam. This was my chance to find out if Colonel Hackworth deserved the reverence and respect I felt for him.

• 35:02Jocko Willink?

  General Mukuyama had been a young captain when Colonel Hackworth reported to Fort Lewis, Washington as a new battalion commander. I asked the general if he knew who Colonel Hackworth was before he met him. General Mukuyama replied, quote, "Of course, we all knew. Hack was a legend. Everybody knew who he was. He was Mr. Infantry," end quote. I asked how everybody knew of Colonel Hackworth. General Mukuyama explained, quote, "It wasn't only his reputation, it was his appearance. His neck was the size of my waist, his hair was an eighth of an inch, razor sharp sides and all that. It was the way he carried himself.

• 35:46Jocko Willink?

  His philosophy was that you were either a dud or a stud, and there was nothing in between. When he came to a unit and found some guys that weren't cutting it, they were gone, especially in combat," end quote. General Mukuyama also told me that Colonel Hackworth, quote, "Never did things for personal gain. He always did things for the unit and for the soldiers," end quote.

• 36:18Jocko Willink?

  For the soldiers.

• 36:23Jocko Willink?

  It is that underlying theme that permeates about face. And it is that underlying theme that stuck with me as a leader.

• 36:33Jocko Willink?

  But people's strengths are often their weaknesses. And perhaps doing things for the soldiers was Colonel Hackworth's undoing. In his interview with Issues and Answers, when Howard Tucker asked if he had become too emotionally involved in Vietnam, he responded, quote, "One couldn't see the number of young studs die or be terribly wounded without becoming emotionally involved."

• 37:00Jocko Willink?

  "I just have seen the American nation spend so much of its wonderful, great young men in this country. I've seen our national wealth being drained away. I see the nation being split apart and almost being split asunder because of this war, and I'm wondering to what end it is all going to lead." End quote.

• 37:22Jocko Willink?

  From that emotional feeling about the cost of war came Colonel Hackworth's metaphorical "about-face," his turn away from the war, away from the Army, and away from America.

• 37:36Jocko Willink?

  But he could not turn his back forever. His heart was too connected, his soul too caring.

• 37:45Jocko Willink?

  That's why Colonel David Hackworth wrote this book, and it's why he dedicated it, quote, "to all the doughboys, the ground pounders, the grunts, the American infantrymen, past, present, and especially future." End quote.

• 38:09Jocko Willink?

  Well, Hack, if I may be so presumptuous as to call you what your friends called you, your dedication has hit home, and your lessons have not been forgotten. This book captures the lessons you learned in blood and passes them on.

• 38:30Jocko Willink?

  I used them on the battlefield with my SEALs as we served alongside soldiers and Marines in fierce fighting during the Battle of Ramadi. I passed them on to the next generation of SEALs when I ran training for SEAL platoons and troops deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan. I have talked about them at our service academies and I have shared them with leaders and future leaders at every level and in every branch of the military.

• 38:58Jocko Willink?

  Your service to the infantrymen carries on.

• 39:04Jocko Willink?

  But I will also tell you, Hack, that your impact does not stop at your cherished infantrymen.

• 39:11Jocko Willink?

  Your leadership philosophies, strategies, and tactics can be applied by any leader, at any level, in any situation, just as you found when you applied them to the civilian world yourself and ran highly profitable and successful businesses.

• 39:29Jocko Willink?

  I have taught your principles to countless civilian leaders in every industry imaginable and have seen them applied over and over again with extraordinary outcomes.

• 39:43Jocko Willink?

  So, thank you, Hack. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you for being my mentor.

• 39:54Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for your service and sacrifice to our great nation.

• 40:00Jocko Willink?

  And even now that you have passed,

• 40:05Jocko Willink?

  thank you for taking care of your beloved soldiers.

• 40:10Jocko Willink?

  We will follow your lead.

• 40:16Jocko Willink?

  Jocko Willink. January 2020.

• 40:26Jocko Willink?

  And that is the foreword for a new release of the book about face, which is now available.

• 40:40Jocko Willink?

  And obviously, it was just an absolute honor to be able to write this thing. And it's, it seems, it seems, I know this word might be a little bit much. It seems a little bit surreal, you know, to have had this book had this huge impact on me. And then to be able to, to be able to write the foreword is just to have my name on this book with, you know, this guy that has had this massive influence on me is crazy.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's surreal for me and I'm me. The, yeah, when you like, what episode was that when you first covered that book?

• 41:18Jocko Willink?

  This is the first book we covered on the podcast. It's episode two. Episode one of this podcast was, uh, hey, this is what we're doing and answer some questions. Episode two is about face.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:29Jocko Willink?

  And I knew that, I mean, when we started episode one, I already knew we were, I knew what we were doing next.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:34Jocko Willink?

  So, and that's kind of what happened. So what happened was I, I, I first mentioned the book when I was on Tim Ferriss's podcast, which was the first interview I ever did.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:45Jocko Willink?

  And no one had any idea who I would, why, why would they know who I was or whatever? But he asked that, he asked, you know, he asks, asks the same bulk of questions most of the time. And so one of the questions that he asks is, what's the book that you've most gifted?

• 42:06Jocko Willink?

  And for me, there's not, that's a very easy question because you know, I don't first of all, give many gifts. But second of all, I'd only ever given anyone any book ever. And it was this book I gave, actually, I gave a copy to Leif. I gave a pop copy to Seth Stone. That's who got this book. So.

• 42:26Jocko Willink?

  That was pretty easy. And so I kind of mentioned it there and you know, maybe some people got their interest peaked about the book then, but then we started the podcast, this podcast, a couple of months later. And this was the first book we covered. And then of course, I refer to it all the time, not only on this podcast, but you know, someone else will ask me that question. It's a pretty common question, right? Like what's, what's a great book or what book? Yeah. And so through all this, through all these mentions of the book and talking about the book, it started to sell. So the book, the original book came out in 1989.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:01Jocko Willink?

  So it started to sell and it actually started to sell a lot, like a lot of copies, which doesn't happen. There's very few books that basically get brought back from the dead, right? When a book's over, it's over and it's outdated and they're moving on to the next book. So it's very seldom that they have, and there's some name for it. I don't know in the publishing world. There's a name for, for what happens with a book basically rises from the dead. And so the publishers, you know, having to reprint these books and they're kind of, they're stoked, obviously, because they're just making money now. And someone in their department, you know, in whatever they have a department, it's like archived books or so there's some name for these type of old books if they come back. And so someone started pulling the string and doing

• 43:46Jocko Willink?

  the research and trying to figure out where this was all coming from, why they're selling this book that hasn't sold in, you know, in 30 years or close to 40 years, 35 years, it hasn't, you know, hasn't been a huge seller. It was a New York Times bestseller when it came out, but you know, you get, that doesn't normally happen that they come back. So they pulled the string on it and investigated and eventually found me and said, Hey, you know, we're, we're going to reissue this book. Would you like to do a blurb for the back? Meaning a little quote on the back of the book saying, you know, something, this is a great book. And me being, give me an inch and I'm going to try and take a mile. I said, never mind a blurb. I said, I'll write a full foreword for

• 44:27Jocko Willink?

  this thing. And they were all stoked about it. And so, so here it is. The book is out. The new version of About Face by Colonel David Hackworth, forward by Jocko Willink. That's me. It's crazy to see that.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is. You know, like I'll do this thing where you kind of. Kind of go back in time in a way. It's not like remembering a certain time. It's not just remembering, but it's remembering and then also remembering your mindset and how you were thinking and what you were kind of feeling generally in that timeframe, you know, kind of thing. Your values and all the, you kind of put yourself in that exact mindset as you were back then, right? So it's like one of these things where you think back to episode two, one, whenever even before that and how it was such, it's such this massive part of your way and you know, your favorite book, all this stuff. And then to think back then now, yeah, in a few years, I'm going to be writing the

• 45:25Speaker 01

  foreword to a re-release of this book right here. It's like that part kind of makes it surreal, even for like me, you know?

• 45:32Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy. You know, it was, uh, you know, Jordan Peterson and I talked to him about this because he wrote a new foreword of the re-release of the Gulag Archipelago.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:43Jocko Willink?

  And same thing, that was kind of a dead book.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:46Jocko Willink?

  And all of a sudden, you know, this popular guy comes and starts talking about it and then they re-released it and who wrote the foreword?

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:53Jocko Willink?

  And so I talked to Jordan about it, you know, I said, I said, hey, how was that process? And it, but it's probably pretty similar feeling for him, you know, of this book that he really, he, he got a lot of his thought from this book and then they re-release it and he wrote the foreword. And so when I talked to him about it, I was kind of telling him the same thing about what was going on. So I think we had a similar level of stoke.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Yep, fully.

• 46:18Jocko Willink?

  On that. But, you know, we talked about it, we talked about it on episode two. We talked about it with when, when, uh, Jim Mukuyama, General Mukuyama was on, Mook. Coolest guy. When he was on and I read all the sections, you know, that he was kind of involved in and that was awesome. But I, I wanted to cover some more of the book right now. And look, the book is massive, you know, it's eight hundred and something pages. So.

• 46:46Jocko Willink?

  It's a big book, but I wanted to read a little bit more of it. Just cuz look, having reading, I just spent whatever 40 minutes reading my words. But my words pale in comparison to the man himself.

• 47:04Jocko Willink?

  So here we go. Let's jump into the book about face.

• 47:10Jocko Willink?

  6th February 1951. When I first saw them about 1,000 yards to our front. The enemy looked like little black ants racing from the village towards snow covered hills. It was clear, cloudless morning. The temperature hovered around zero as the tanks kept rolling, closing on the ants and the hills. Set astride the road dead ahead. My squad was piggyback on the lead tank.

• 47:38Jocko Willink?

  Fighting in this frigid temperature is, think about it, you're trying to manipulate your weapon. Anytime you stop, you're freezing.

• 47:50Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I like the cold better than the heat. You know what I'm saying?

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:54Jocko Willink?

  You probably like the heat better than the cold.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  I don't know. Under circum- certain circumstances, yeah and no. Ben, I remember at UH, we'd jump in the ice bath, right? For like, I don't know, 20 minutes, you go, your whole body, whatever. When you get out of there, yeah, you can't move. Like you can't move your fingers like to do. Yeah, you can't do that kind of stuff. So I don't know, man, the heat kind of is. I mean, if you have water, but you don't always have water, apparently.

• 48:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  I don't know, man, they're both pretty, pretty jammed up.

• 48:22Jocko Willink?

  I don't, yeah, that's a good point. The good point is, it's either way, it sucks, but certainly the cold is gonna suck. I was, my, back to the book, my squad, squad was riding piggyback on the lead tank. It was no long, it was no honor being first in the grim parade. We'd already ravaged the tank's toolbox and knocked off some rations to eat on the way. And now our only comfort was the motor of the M46, which belts some welcome heat over our near frozen bodies. There you go. How are you gonna stay warm? Just get by tank exhaust fumes.

• 48:58Jocko Willink?

  The tank commander relayed Lieutenant Land's order to dismount. I got the guys off like a shot and hit the ground running as the tank rolled on beside us. When I looked beside me, when I looked behind me, I saw the rest of 3rd Platoon had not dismounted. Maybe I'd heard wrong, maybe I was just overeager, but it's damn near impossible for infantry men to reboard a moving tank, so there was no choice but to keep running and hope I hadn't blown it too badly with the lieutenant. I didn't see the ants again for what seemed like a lifetime, but I sure as hell knew where they were. In an instant, the familiar roar of the tanks was drowned out by the deafening sound of

• 49:37Jocko Willink?

  incoming machine gun, mortar, artillery, and self-propelled anti-tank AT fire. Like a buzzsaw, the deadly crossfire was cutting into my platoon. There was at least a dozen enemy machine guns on the high ground and on both sides of the road. High ground. It's like, all these, when I read these things, all these little things, they just, they've just seeped into my mind over time. High ground, like this, that word is in this book, oh, high ground, high ground, oh, they got the high ground, we got the high ground. My guys still running alongside our maneuvering tank were totally shielded. The other squads on the exposed decks of their tanks were hit hard.

• 50:22Jocko Willink?

  By the time we made it to the side of the rice paddy wall and set up a base of fire, most of what was left of 3rd Platoon was scattered across the frozen ground. The tanks pulled off the road and rolled into position online. Once there, they froze. Earlier in the assembly area, a tank commander had told me as unit, the 64th Tank Battalion hadn't seen much hard combat. I believed him. As soon as they were fired upon, these tankers became paralyzed. They plumb forgot all their training and just sat there in those great big armored holes while the enemy went on throwing everything at us but the mess hall walk.

• 51:03Jocko Willink?

  I jumped on the back of the platoon leader's tank and thumped on the hatch with the butt of my rifle. The lieutenant opened the hatch a crack. "Hey Lieutenant," I yelled, "get some fire going at the enemy. Get the big gun going. Get the machine guns going." What's he asking for? He's asking for cover fire. Like, we're stuck. You got a freaking tank. Open fire. The lieutenant was not with it. It seemed as though he had no comprehension of the fix we were in. Slugs were splatting hard on the side of the tank. The self-propelled AT fire, which was screaming down the valley, dug deep furrows all around us. And yet, the tanks still sat there silently, like big fat clay ducks at a shooting gallery.

• 51:47Jocko Willink?

  "Sergeant," the lieutenant finally said in a shell-shocked kind of daze, "look, look, you see out there on the ice?" "Yes, I saw it. It was a pile cap, a little fur ball on the ice amid my platoon's dead and wounded. The bullets and the blood." "That's my cap," he said. "Would you get it for me?" So, you know, what are you learning from that right there? You are learning that people are not going to be able to handle certain situations, and they might be focused on something that they shouldn't be focused on. I mean, and this is an extreme example, but if you've never been to combat before and you're in a leadership position, you might need to learn a lesson from that. That you might get guys that aren't going to act the way you would expect them to act.

• 52:32Jocko Willink?

  What does he do? Back to the book. "I considered shooting the sorry son of a bitch then and there, climbing inside his tank and taking command. Fortunately, reason prevailed. I grabbed him and shook him until he looked as if he was back to the real world. Then I instructed him to have three tanks concentrate on the self-propelled AT fire to our front and use the others to start placing main gun fire on the hills. To give him a bit of encouragement, I manned the tank's 50 caliber turret gun and blasted one of the hills myself until I'd used up all the ammo and the commander got his men into action." What does that tell you? What do you do when people aren't doing? That's a lead-from-the-front scenario. You know, in leadership strategy and tactics, I went through this whole...

• 53:17Jocko Willink?

  The book, the book Leadership Strategy and Tactics, I went through this whole section talking about leading from the rear and how, you know, you want to let your, you want to let your leaders lead, you want to let your subordinates lead, you want to let them step up. If, if you're always leading from the front, they're, they're always following and you don't want that. But I also make a case for, hey, there are absolutely times when you've got to lead from the front. This is one of those times. Once the, back to the book, once the 90 millimeter guns got going, we were on our way to gaining fire superiority. The amount of incoming decreased as the tankers started to remember why they were there, but the tank commanders stayed buttoned up inside their turrets. No one was using the 50 calibers. So to explain this a little bit, you know, a tank has like the

• 54:02Jocko Willink?

  big gun that you think of a tank, but then on top of it, they have a machine gun, a 50 caliber machine gun, which is a big giant machine gun. And basically you sit up out of the turret of the tank, so you're exposed, but then you can shoot that 50 cal wherever you want to shoot it. And all these guys were buttoned up inside their tanks, not using that weapon. Now they also have a weapon usually that's a machine gun, that's coordinated, it's called a coaxial gun. So it's a machine gun. So you got the big main gun, which you know, is what you think of when you see a tank, but next to that is a coaxial machine gun that they can fire from inside the tank. And it's just a machine gun that's pointing in the same direction as that big gun. But then in addition to that, they have

• 54:44Jocko Willink?

  this 50 caliber turret mounted gun that you can get up out of the weapon, out of the tank and you can shoot from.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Is that a common thing, the 50 cal?

• 54:52Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Huh, it's weird. I never, I don't know if I didn't notice it or what, not that I'm sitting around looking at tanks all the time or nothing, but huh.

• 55:01Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  So you got three guns on a tank essentially.

• 55:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I seen main gun, Mike, my main gun, Mike Byma.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:09Jocko Willink?

  He's a, he's a, a tank fanatic.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 55:14Jocko Willink?

  But, but you know, he, uh, he used all those weapons, the coaxial machine gun, his main gun, and his turret mounted 50 cal get some.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  So what is there two, so three guys in the tank or what?

• 55:25Jocko Willink?

  Like how, I don't, I forget how many people are in the tank. There's a driver, there's a gunner. I want to say there's three or four people in there.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 55:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's tight quarters, it's hot.

• 55:39Jocko Willink?

  God bless them.

• 55:43Jocko Willink?

  So, back to the book. Once the 90 millimeter guns got going, we were on our way to gaining fire superiority. The amount of incoming decreased as the tankers starting to remember why they were there, but the tank commanders stayed buttoned up inside their turrets. No one was using their 50 calibers. I just couldn't believe it. Eight inches of steel between them and the chaos outside, yet they didn't have it in them to help the sun come out for the guys stopping slugs with their field jackets. I went from tank to tank pounding on the hatches and blasting away on each of their 50s until all the ammo was exhausted. This little exercise had its effect. The tank commanders got the word and started

• 56:27Jocko Willink?

  doing what they should have been doing all along. When no further spoon feeding was required, I returned to my platoon. So again, that's just taking action, letting people see, you have to lead from the front sometimes. Lesson learned.

• 56:43Jocko Willink?

  There were dead and wounded everywhere. Slugs were ricocheting off the ice. We could see sparks where they hit. Jim Parker's second platoon had successfully silenced an enemy machine gun to our left, so the pressure was off us. So the pressure was off enough for us to get our wounded behind the protection of the tanks and paddy walls where they could be patched up. Our progress was hampered though, because the tank crews kept moving their tanks. They didn't stop to think they were exposing our wounded all over again. They were too busy trying to save their own armor coated skins. I told the tank lieutenant, whom I'd come to view and treat accordingly as a recruit at Fort Knox, that the next

• 57:25Jocko Willink?

  time a tank moved and exposed our guys, I'd fire a 3.5 bazooka right up his ass. There was no more movement. I saw a soldier prone on the ice. He'd been there a long time. I thought he was dead. But then I saw movement and rushed out to get him. My God, I thought, it's DeBoer.

• 57:47Jocko Willink?

  Private Henry C. DeBoer had been with George Company since early in the war. He was one of the few survivors from the original 3rd platoon, basically because in those first hard months of combat, he had not seen one good firefight. He had an uncanny sixth sense. He could always tell when the platoon was in for a major bloodletting, and invariably, he'd find an excuse to be somewhere else. Normally, that excuse was going on sick call, which by regulation, he was allowed to do, and you couldn't stop him, even though you knew the only thing that was wrong with him was a chronic case of cowardice. DeBoer himself even admitted he was a coward.

• 58:30Jocko Willink?

  And we hated him for it. He was an outcast from the platoon, and we even had a little song about him, which we'd all sing in unison. Quote, "Out of the dark, dreary Korean countryside comes the call of the DeBoer bird. Sick call, sick call, sick call." He'd pulled this stunt only yesterday, as we were saddling up for this very operation. He'd sensed the bloodletting all right, but hadn't figured that the foggy overcast covering the battlefield would not lift, then the attack would be postponed. He'd returned from the dock last night with a clean bill of health, most surprised to see us. The rest of the platoon took great pleasure in the fact that his malingering little ass

• 59:15Jocko Willink?

  would be in the thick of things in the morning. Now, DeBoer was ashen-faced. Hit in the chest or gut, I didn't know. There was a lot of blood, and well into shock. I knew he wasn't going to make it. "Come on, DeBoer. You're gonna be fine. You'll be all right," I said, giving him the old pep talk, as I grabbed his jacket collar and started sliding him across the ice. But DeBoer said, "No, Sarge. Just leave me. You're gonna get hit. Just leave me, Sarge." Then suddenly, he groaned. "Sarge, I just shit my pants."

• 1:00:00Jocko Willink?

  And that was it. He was gone. I left him and ran back.

• 1:00:09Jocko Willink?

  DeBoer in death became one of the great heroes of our outfit. It was true, he'd never been anything in his army life but a coward. But he died right. He died like a man.

• 1:00:24Jocko Willink?

  He didn't say, "Take care of me." He said, "Leave me. Take care of yourself."

• 1:00:32Jocko Willink?

  And when I told the other guys the story, old DeBoer became a legend in the platoon.

• 1:00:41Jocko Willink?

  You know, whenever I read things like this, you know,

• 1:00:47Jocko Willink?

  or not whenever, but sometimes I just kind of get curious.

• 1:00:52Jocko Willink?

  So you Google, internet, interwebs, and you know, you,

• 1:00:59Jocko Willink?

  do Google, Henry C. DeBoer, and there it is, Korean War, 6th February, 1951, from Newport News, Virginia. Son of Margaret DeBoer. Didn't find much else besides that, but

• 1:01:16Jocko Willink?

  story behind every one of those names.

• 1:01:20Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, "The road ran north-south, and we were on the east side of it. The balance of G Company was on attack, maneuvering to secure the high ground to the north and to the west." There it is again, high ground. Do you think that, we've read four pages, and we're talking about high ground. Do you think that might be an important thing in the world?

• 1:01:41Jocko Willink?

  "My platoon, or what was left of it, was the fixum element, trying to tie down the enemy while providing a base of fire for Parkers and Gilchrist platoons." What does that mean? It means cover and move. It means he's in the cover position. The other elements are moving. Maybe that's important. Do you think it is? You've never been in combat before, and you hear this guy keep saying, "Put down cover fire." Yes. "After we got organized, I had a moment to look around. I saw my platoon leader, Lieutenant Land, sort of crouched down, leaning against a rice paddy wall, observing the whole action." "John Land was a good man, a World War II vet and former G Company NCO. He was one of the few battlefield commissions in the 27th."

• 1:02:24Jocko Willink?

  "Isn't he a cool customer?" I thought to myself now, just watching this whole thing and taking it all in.

• 1:02:31Jocko Willink?

  Because really, that was about the only thing you could do in a time like this. Stay cool, stay down, and establish fire superiority as best you could. Do you think that's an important lesson? To stay cool, stay calm, stay down, get fire superiority. I examined what we had left in terms of a fighting force. Tennessee Mitchell, Robert Delbert Bell, and Old DeBoer. There were seven dead altogether and about a dozen wounded. The platoon sergeant was gone and the assistant platoon sergeant was nowhere in sight. It seemed that all was left of Third Platoon was the balance of my squad, bits and pieces of the other two, and a light machine gun team. I ran over to the lieutenant to ask for instructions.

• 1:03:14Jocko Willink?

  When I got there, I realized the reason Lieutenant Land was so cool was that he was also dead. He'd caught a slug right between the eyes. The blood had poured down his face and chest, filled up the eye pieces of his binoculars, and frozen there. I took the binoculars and slipped the radio from his dead radio operators back. I called Captain Mikeley, our company commander, and gave him the situation report. He said I was now in charge, that we were to continue tying down the enemy and get the wounded out in that order of priority. Hmm, isn't that interesting? You've got the leader giving you two things to do and telling you that one of them is

• 1:03:59Jocko Willink?

  the priority. Lieutenant Gilchrist's First Platoon was having a hell of a time. Their attack was being held up by fire from a hornet's nest of well-concealed enemy automatic weapons position. Just as we'd gotten the wounded under control, one of our guys who'd been doing some scouting spotted North Korean fighting positions on the other side of the dyke. First Platoon was attacking. He motioned me over to have a look. Sure enough, at least a platoon was dug in there, almost in the shadow of the tanks. They were so close to the tanks, main guns couldn't depress low enough to hit them. Not, nor could their anti-tank weapons hit our tanks. It was a Mexican standoff, but not for long.

• 1:04:41Jocko Willink?

  So, you have tanks, they can only lower their weapons so much. And so you've got the enemy so close and in a depressed position that you can't even shoot them.

• 1:04:58Jocko Willink?

  So you got a little Mexican standoff and then alright, who's going with me? I asked. So what is, what is, what does Hackworth do? He gets default aggressive. He's gonna take action.

• 1:05:12Jocko Willink?

  He's gonna take action. Uh, so he says, alright, who's going with me? I will, said Van Meter, our platoon medic, a stud of a guy who had a great reputation as a fighter, as he did as an, as a doc. While the others laid down a good base of fire, the doc and I threw two frag grenades over the dike. Hmm. What is that? That's covered move. You lay down fire, I'm gonna huck grenades.

• 1:05:37Jocko Willink?

  When they exploded, we leaped through the smoke, landing front and center of the enemy. It was eyeball to eyeball, the two of us facing at least thirty dazed, wounded or dead communists. The enemy appeared to be leaderless. They were certainly in a state of shock and we cleaned them up, and we cleaned up the position with ease, using rifles and bayonets.

• 1:06:00Jocko Willink?

  You don't think too much of, about bayonet fighting in the Korean War, but

• 1:06:05Jocko Willink?

  apparently you're getting after it. The two more, then two more enemy soldiers appeared out of the smoke and confusion, dragging a fifty-seven caliber anti-tank buffalo gun. We were no more than ten feet apart. I leveled my M1, was about to shoot them when I looked down and saw that the bolt was back, my weapon was empty, and it wasn't exactly the time for reloading. I lunged forward with the bayonet at on-guard, shouting "Tao Zong!" The enemy threw up their hands. The Chinese word for surrender was probably the only one I knew. I'd filed it away in my brain when we were up north. I must admit, it learned, I must admit, I learned it thinking that someone would be saying it to me.

• 1:06:49Jocko Willink?

  But it didn't matter now. There they stood with burp guns still hanging around their necks, a buffalo gun at their feet and me with an empty rifle. The funny thing was that these guys were Korean, not Chinese, and the chances that they had understood what I had said, and the chances, and the chances were they hadn't understood what I had said anyway. On the other hand, in combination with that long razor-sharp bayonet pointed at them, they probably would have surrendered if I had given the order in Swahili. In any event, we took their weapons and turned the POWs over to our men on the other side of the dike. Then the doc and I continued mopping up. In numbers and in firepower, these guys certainly should have outgunned what was left of third platoon. From the number of bodies, buffalo guns, and other AT weapons we found, we conclude

• 1:07:34Jocko Willink?

  that we'd knocked off an anti-tank platoon that had been as green as scared as our tankers. The only difference was, of course, that these North Koreans would never tell the story of their baptism of fire.

• 1:07:48Jocko Willink?

  By the time we rejoined the platoon, my guys had looted to the two prisoners. The only real treasure was a US-made Waltham Pocket Watch, which the guys gave to me. It became my sixth February souvenir. None of us spoke Korean, so I asked PFC Charles to take the POWs back to Captain Mikeley for interrogation. I was really pleased we'd nailed him.

• 1:08:11Jocko Willink?

  Prisoners are the best source of battlefield information. Pretty pertinent fact.

• 1:08:23Jocko Willink?

  And with the fighting still going, on full tilt all around us, it'd be useful to find out what the hell was happening in the enemy camp. The first and second platoons of George were fighting hard to take the high ground. Navy Corsairs were working with the enemy over, working the enemy over with napalm and strafing runs. Cut off between mine and Gilcrest platoon were an enemy who'd been bypassed. So I took a half a dozen of our guys and went up the hill to do some hunting. Once again, taking action, taking the high ground. The North Koreans were cleverly concealed, well-dug bunkers stuffed with straw for warmth. The pine-covered hill was a maze of seemingly unrelated positions, which we slowly worked through in two-man teams.

• 1:09:08Jocko Willink?

  Fire in the hole was shouted again and again as we grenade at bunker after bunker. One man providing cover fire as the other edged close enough to flip in a frag.

• 1:09:21Jocko Willink?

  Laws of combat.

• 1:09:24Jocko Willink?

  The enemy did not fight back. They stayed in the bottom of their holes, looking like trapped moles. It didn't take long before we ran out of frag grenades. A field expedient was quickly devised. We stripped our tracer slugs from the machine gun belt and clipped them for our M1s. With one man covering, his partner would slip up to the hole and snap off a tracer or two into the position. The red-hot slugs would ignite the straw inside, and when the defender came up coughing, he'd be shot between the horns. Gary Cooper wiped out dozens of German soldiers in Sergeant York by lowering them out with a turkey call. If it was good enough for Sergeant York in Hollywood, it was good enough for us on 6th February 1951.

• 1:10:09Jocko Willink?

  We moved from hole to hole systematically, burning the enemy out until the hilltop above us suddenly exploded with gunfire. The Reds were counter-attacking. As Gilchrist Platoon fought them off only six feet from the crest of the hill, we beat feet back to the safety of our rice paddy wall.

• 1:10:26Jocko Willink?

  Patty walls, whose purpose in more peaceful times was irrigation control, where dirt walls about a foot thick and about three feet high,

• 1:10:36Jocko Willink?

  perfect cover for most direct-fire weapons. Infantrymen loved them. Now leaning against my safe paddy wall, even as First Platoon fought off another counterattack with the help of Second, which could observe the forward slope of Gilchrist's hill and provide warning of the enemy's intention, I realized I was starving. I opened a can of sea rations with my trusty P38 and dug right in. I started at the top of the can, big chunks of congealed fat, under which lay beef and potatoes, frozen rock-hard. About this time, an enemy sniper started firing along the top of the rice paddy wall. It was harassing fire only. No one got hurt, but it got on all of our nerves

• 1:11:20Jocko Willink?

  far more even than the largest battle still going on around us. I'd just gotten down to the meat and was about to take my first bite when zip! A slug creased the furrow in the top of the wall, right above my head and showered my rations with debris. I scooped it out. I was about to try another bite when, zip, another slug. Same place, did the same thing. By the third time, that was it. I was pissed off. I'm going to get that sniper. Who's with me? Ray Wells, an ace machine gunner and good old country boy from West Virginia volunteered. We followed the paddy wall to a drainage ditch that took us behind the North Korean anti-tank positions. The plan was simple, to get right to the rear of the sniper, shoot the son of a bitch,

• 1:12:05Jocko Willink?

  and go back and finish my Cs. The ditch had an L-shaped turn. We stopped just shy of it, where I inched forward to have a quick peek. Three Koreans manning a machine gun were lying in the prone position about 10 feet away, not looking our direction. I slipped back to Wells, whispering that I'd take the first guy, he'd take the third, and we'd double up on the gunner in the middle. We stepped out of the ditch, the North Koreans looked up, but Wells and I were the last thing they ever saw. I knew they were dead. They were so close that I could hear the slugs thumping home in their padded jackets. We jumped over them and continued on our way. With Wells covering my ass, I came up behind a little tree at the top of the ditch.

• 1:12:47Jocko Willink?

  Ideal concealment for a quick look-see. After a few second scan, I spotted the sniper on the hill. He was in a bunker about 100 yards away on my left, and I could clearly see the side of his head and his Soviet SKS rifle. I ducked down. I didn't want to take a chance on Kentucky windage, so I adjusted my M1 rifle sights down four clicks and got into a firing position. I had the sniper's head sitting right at the top of my front sight, but just as I was about to squeeze the trigger, I heard machine gun slugs snapping over my head. Then, the weapons report. The weapons report. Oh shit, I thought. Someone's seen me. For all I knew, it could have been one of our tankers. The slugs were coming from that direction.

• 1:13:32Jocko Willink?

  Maybe they hadn't gotten the word that we were out here. So I started to go down, but as I went down, I felt the top of my head explode. I'd caught a slug.

• 1:13:44Jocko Willink?

  So what do we have here? Well, we have a potential blue on blue scenario. I guess we, we don't know where that round's coming from, but it's coming from the general position of his tanks. So how's that happening? Well, the people don't know where he is. How important is to know where each other are on the battlefield? It's the most important piece of information you have.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  What's a sea ration? I mean, I know it's food.

• 1:14:06Jocko Willink?

  You know what an MRE is, right?

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:07Jocko Willink?

  So that's the old school MRE. And, but they came in cans, not in the plastic pouches that the modern MRE comes in.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  So they say it's like sea, right? Is it the letter C ration or it's S E A ration?

• 1:14:21Jocko Willink?

  They write with a C. S, just the legislative, just the, but I don't know where the origination of, maybe it's canned rations.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:14:30Jocko Willink?

  That might be it. I don't think it's like, uh, these are meant for naval vessels at the sea. Cause they, cause they, they wouldn't use them out there. Cause on ships they have, you know, big refrigerators in kitchens and stuff.

• 1:14:45Jocko Willink?

  I'm sure we'll find out when this comes out, people will let us know.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:49Jocko Willink?

  Canned. I'm guessing canned.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  That makes sense.

• 1:14:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the truth.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:57Jocko Willink?

  Like most good wool founds, I wasn't wearing a helmet. Helmets were a pain in the ass unless there was a lot of artillery and mortar fire coming in, in which case they became as essential as air. The slug ripped through my fur pile cap and propelled me from the top of the ditch as though I'd been po-laxed by Paul Bunyan. I don't know if I lost consciousness or not, but I do know I was stunned with four alarm sirens ringing in my ears. Wells thought I was dead and took off down the ditch. I couldn't blame him. He thought he was all alone and behind enemy lines. Meanwhile, I tried to focus on what had happened. So that sucks.

• 1:15:35Jocko Willink?

  By the time you get shot and you come to, you see your buddy leaving you for dead and you can't even blame him because you just got shot in the head.

• 1:15:45Jocko Willink?

  Blood really thick was pumping out of my head.

• 1:15:49Jocko Willink?

  The first thing I did was ask myself my name, rank and serial number. David Hackworth, David Haskell Hackworth, Sergeant, RA 19242907. That's pretty funny. He's, he's been in the military so like institutionalized that when the first thing he asks is name, rank and serial number of himself. That's just beautiful.

• 1:16:15Jocko Willink?

  That came the automatic response, which made me decide that my head must still be okay, even if my ass was the worst crack ever. I started crawling down the ditch. I had to crawl because the North Koreans on the high ground knew they had an intruder in their midst. I stayed low on the enemy's side. Slugs were spraying the ditch fast and furious, but thumping up against the other wall. I crawled until I reached the machine gun crew Wells and I had knocked off. Now I was faced with a dilemma. If I jumped over them, I'd become exposed to the enemy fire coming from the hill. If I crawled over them, one of them might still be alive.

• 1:16:56Jocko Willink?

  And the longer I looked, the more my confused head convinced me to see that one of them was alive and he'd kill me. I couldn't shoot them because when I got hit, I dropped my rifle. So I just stared at them like a dumb recruit, wondering what to do. I pulled my trench knife out of my boot. Very, very carefully, I crawled over one of them, waiting for him to move. I crawled over the next one, waiting for him to move. Then I crawled over the third guy the same way and slipped on like a snake down the ditch until it was high enough for me to crouch. Then high enough for me to stand up and run. The whole time I was singing.

• 1:17:36Jocko Willink?

  Whoever said there aren't any atheists on the battlefield was dead right.

• 1:17:42Jocko Willink?

  Often, when we'd be sitting around our little fires, one of the guys in the platoon would play his guitar and we would sing. The songs were all religious ones, like "Down by the Riverside", where we'd be laying down our swords and shields, or "Please, dear Jesus, hear my plea, just a little closer walk with thee."

• 1:18:02Jocko Willink?

  But they were also songs of great comradeship, and a most magic feeling would always pour out when we sang, a feeling that third platoon, our platoon, was our family, our whole life.

• 1:18:17Jocko Willink?

  And somehow, between God and our brothers, we were going to make it through.

• 1:18:24Jocko Willink?

  So as I pounded down this ditch, I was singing "Just a Closer Walk With Thee", with deep feeling. Ella Fitzgerald, look out. To my mind, I was really talking to God. I was talking to the man. So I'm singing and running, blood's pouring out of my head, and then I remembered I didn't have my rifle.

• 1:18:50Jocko Willink?

  What a rotten example I had set. Good NCOs, don't screw up like that. Only a dumb shit of a soldier loses his rifle.

• 1:19:01Jocko Willink?

  So I stopped singing and started chewing my ass as I ran down that ditch.

• 1:19:07Jocko Willink?

  Maybe it was because I was thinking about my lack of professionalism. Maybe it was just second nature thing from my training. Or maybe it was a sixth sense, I don't know. But seconds before, I was home free, just a few feet more, I told myself, just around the corner, I stopped.

• 1:19:29Jocko Willink?

  "Hey, Third Platoon, it's Hackworth," I shouted. "I'm coming in."

• 1:19:36Jocko Willink?

  Then I turned the corner. I found myself looking down the throat of Corporal Wesley Morgan's mean-looking Browning Automatic Rifle. Man, you were so loud coming down that ditch, I thought at least a platoon of gooks was on the march.

• 1:19:55Jocko Willink?

  Wells told me you got it. If you hadn't called out, I would have mowed you down.

• 1:20:03Jocko Willink?

  So we have another, uh, potential blue on blue scenario there.

• 1:20:13Jocko Willink?

  And you know,

• 1:20:17Jocko Willink?

  I'm calling out all these little examples in this book and this book is just,

• 1:20:24Jocko Willink?

  it, it, it's just, it just, it's just filled with them. It's filled with them over and over again and

• 1:20:34Jocko Willink?

  we'll get into more of it.

• 1:20:37Jocko Willink?

  This is a long book. We could, I could talk about this book forever. I think because I've read it so many times and every time I read it, I find something new, something different. You know, I've got, here's my, here's my original copy. This is the first copy I ever got right here. This old one, it's all beat up.

• 1:20:55Jocko Willink?

  I, I sent Tim Ferriss a copy and he sent me a note back and he said, I said, hey, here's, you know, here's about face. This is the book I mentioned. And I sent him like an old hardcover because I have a bunch of copies and I've got a bunch of signed copies. And he, he like felt bad. He, because it was a, it was an older looking book. He's like, wait a second. Is this like, because we had talked about it even off the podcast. He goes, wait a second. Is this like the book that you had in Iraq? And I go, no, no, no, no. It's just a, no, it's just a copy, but it's a, it's an older copy.

• 1:21:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's just so many lessons and, and like I said, the book is 830 pages long with small writing.

• 1:21:38Jocko Willink?

  And also what's cool about it is you can open it up. You don't have to read the whole thing. You can open up anywhere. You can start reading. If you know the general story, you can start reading it anywhere. And that's, that makes it beneficial. And actually Leif was telling me the other day, and I, I remember doing this once Leif was telling me. He would like, you know, we'd be talking about something. I have it down in the tactical operations, like sitting on my deck, desk and you know, there'd be some, something in there. I'd read it to him. You know, I'd be like, hey, listen to this. You know, him and his assistant platoon commander, whatever. I'd read it to him and you know, say, what does that remind you of? And it'd be some situation, the exact situation that we were going through, you know? And so, yeah, even Leif remembers how much I relied on this

• 1:22:23Jocko Willink?

  book. But you know, the other thing about this book, I think, is that this book started to get me to see the way in all things. You know, it was the first book where I started, I bet you could do a good video of like layering things on, like all the little examples I pointed out. Can you imagine those words like high ground, starting to really like come, like seeing it and seeing like, oh, that's cover. That's important. High ground. That's important. You know, people doing things, leading from the front, like all

• 1:23:05Jocko Willink?

  those things starting to just sort of appear as their level of importance and the connectivity to what I was going through and what I would see. So it's like this book, even though I had already been to college, and I have to give credit to when I was, when I had, when I was, when I studied Shakespeare in college, you know, I was an English major, English major. So I had to study Shakespeare. And when we covered Henry V on podcast 15, I was talking about the fact that you don't, you, you have to really read Shakespeare. You have to look up the words you don't know. You have to, you have to decipher it. This, and so that was one level of my ability to comprehend what I was reading.

• 1:23:49Jocko Willink?

  But this was like the next level of of realizing that what you're reading can be overlaid and it can be that you can it can add context and it can be instituted into your own context of your own experience.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, like kind of like the Bible almost.

• 1:24:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  You know, like you'll tell a story and then the like the story, the significance of the story is like the lesson, you know, and then it's so, yeah, if you approach the book that it is this, it is, I'm reading this book for the lesson, like as it applies to me today, you know, so you can kind of look to it for guidance.

• 1:24:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, other look, I mean, we've covered the first, the podcast, the books that we cover on this podcast, a lot of those books I read way before we started the podcast, but like when I would read those books, I would basically be reading a quote cool war story, right? This was the first book where I started going, wait a second. I see the connection. I see the connection, not just like all of a sudden I started drawing the those same connections in all these other books that I would read, but it started with this one, which is, and I don't know why, maybe it's because it's long and maybe it's because it repeats, it repeats those same lessons over and over again.

• 1:25:10Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, I got to, it's really the first time I got to utilize someone else's knowledge in a way to help me, not just to help my knowledge, but really to add to my own experience.

• 1:25:24Jocko Willink?

  And this book, uh, this book did it for me, so, um, we'll cover more of it.

• 1:25:33Jocko Willink?

  We'll cover more in the future, but.

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  Is that out?

• 1:25:38Jocko Willink?

  This is out, this is available, we have it on the website, as you know.

• 1:25:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, hey, there are, there are two versions.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:48Jocko Willink?

  So there's the old, there's the old version and you actually have to go specifically and we'll put the link.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:55Jocko Willink?

  You have to go specifically to the new version of it to get the, the one that has that forward that I read. Um, yeah, if you want to check out this book and. Yeah, that's the thing. Don't be intimidated because it's 834 pages because you can read it three pages at a time. That's the other thing that's cool. It's not like a book where you've got to read 20 pages to be like, get something out of it. You can read four pages of this.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:17Jocko Willink?

  Then you'll get something out of it.

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Some, and yeah, some books are cool like that where, and you, you can kind of, especially if you just know the general story where you.

• 1:26:26Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  You open up wherever and you're like, okay, and you can get the, you know, like some of them, you're like, oh shoot, I shouldn't read this part because not only will it might, it might not make sense, but I, you know, you kind of should read the beginning first. You know, otherwise whether it be spoilers or whatever.

• 1:26:40Jocko Willink?

  And you know what else we'll, we'll go into at some point? You know, I always on this podcast, a few times that I've read from this book, I'm only, I only talk about the war part, but there's massive sections of his career between the Korean war and the Vietnam war where he was. He was a soldier in a peacetime environment. So what he was doing was he was doing maneuvering and he was building relationships. He was doing all these things, all these leadership things that you have to do as a leader in order to build relationships and make good decisions and know when to bet, like all that stuff. So it's not, it's not all war, even though a lot of it is. But he covers all these different dynamics of human relationships and human nature.

• 1:27:21Jocko Willink?

  And it's just, it's just good. So I, I, like I said, I'm honored. I got to write the foreword. I'm honored. I've been able to share this book with a bunch of people. So hack.

• 1:27:35Jocko Willink?

  Thank you. Thank you for the knowledge. And passing it on. And with that, um, Echo, speaking of knowledge. Do you have any knowledge you want to share with us?

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  Sure. Hell, yeah. Well, we are on the path. This is how to stay on the path. This whole deal.

• 1:27:54Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  We'll, we'll, we'll discuss it. How about that? So we're working out?

• 1:28:00Jocko Willink?

  We are.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Are you injured right now?

• 1:28:02Jocko Willink?

  No. I got, I got some, uh, I got some small cuts, but I don't really consider those injuries. Small scrapes, cuts and whatnot from.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  Branches?

• 1:28:12Jocko Willink?

  No, the reef.

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  The reef? Oh, okay.

• 1:28:15Jocko Willink?

  There's been some waves here in Southern California. Basically, uh, to your reference there, I was, as we know, hunting.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  In the wilderness.

• 1:28:24Jocko Willink?

  In the wilderness, in the wild. And while I was hunting, I actually didn't receive any, no, no cuts, no scrapes. You know, there's always that possibility, especially, you know, when it's dark and you can fall.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:28:37Jocko Willink?

  But, no, and, and you don't wear nods, night vision goggles on, obviously.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  No, yeah, typically, right? That's not a typical.

• 1:28:45Jocko Willink?

  So it's a little, it's a little easier fall once it gets dark.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Uh, where were you?

• 1:28:49Jocko Willink?

  I was in Utah.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Hmm. So what, what do we, what, it's cold there? It's cold or warm?

• 1:28:55Jocko Willink?

  Uh, honestly.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 1:28:56Jocko Willink?

  The temperature was absolutely one, it was warm, it was a little too warm. It was, it was comfortable. I was gonna say absolutely comfortable, but the problem is it's too warm. It needs to be colder for the type of hunt that I was doing.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Oh, cause it was like art, like you guys were traveling, right?

• 1:29:11Jocko Willink?

  No, it's just the, the animals elk.

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:14Jocko Willink?

  They like it to be colder and they're more active when it's colder.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:29:18Jocko Willink?

  So when it's hot, they kind of sleep and it's harder to find them.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  And you're trekking through the mountains on a certain course? Or is it like the kind, you're just looking for elk at?

• 1:29:28Jocko Willink?

  You're looking for elk in woods. Have you ever seen an elk bugle before? So elk do something called bugling, which is a completely animalistic dinosaur crazy screeching howling noise. And they go nuts doing it. And so you hear that and then you try and go to it. Except for the crazy thing is they're they're so fast. It's they're they're just the way they move through the wilderness. You you know, when you run hills?

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  Sure, hell yeah, hills.

• 1:30:05Jocko Willink?

  And you know, let's say you're running up a decent hill like. I don't care who you are. When you sprint up a hill, you're gonna be tired. But an elk does not care. It's no factor whatsoever. They're just they're going up hills as if you're just walking across this.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:22Jocko Willink?

  Sidewalk.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  Not even breathing hard at the top. The uh. You know, when you watch. National Geographic or something like this where you see these animals and you know, like, yeah, you see the obvious big ones, the elephant and the buffalo. You're like, oh, yeah, that's big. But man, a wild animal, even if it's kind of the smaller like on quiet, there's these little goats, right? These goats that cruise on the mountains and stuff. And from far away, like, oh, look at that goat. But you start to get, I mean, I haven't been right up to one, a wild one, but. As you kind of can see him closer, you're like, man, that thing's kind of intimidating just how like capable it is, you know, like, so these elks, like, they get kind of big, right? Like, it's not like a little deer like I'm like, you know, when you watch like Bambi, these deers are just so so.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  Like fragile.

• 1:31:10Jocko Willink?

  These things ain't.

• 1:31:15Jocko Willink?

  And they fight each other. They fight each other and they just throw down. It's crazy to watch. It's crazy. And and you know, it's a it's an awesome experience for sure.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  It's just like, you know, like when you think of like, who, you know, these people or whatever kids, they're like, yeah, I'm a tiger or I'm a lion. And it's like, yeah, obvious, you know, lions are ferocious, sure. But in real life, like a wild animal, like an elk, for example, when you go up to it, you're like. Bruh, that thing is ferocious, you know? Like, you don't realize that when you see it on a YouTube video or something like that. Every once in a while, maybe like if they're, you know, involved in certain actions, but...

• 1:31:56Jocko Willink?

  Well, you know how strong, like, let's say a lizard? Like, you know, when you grab a lizard or, or just a small animal? Like, how strong a small animal is?

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:06Jocko Willink?

  Compared to a human?

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Right, for like pound for pound.

• 1:32:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so then you think, what's that like when this thing weighs eight hundred pounds? You know, because they're exponentially stronger than weak humans?

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:18Jocko Willink?

  Let's face it, we're just weak as a, as a animal.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:23Jocko Willink?

  We're just kind of pathetic as an animal.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  I know, bro.

• 1:32:26Jocko Willink?

  You know, compared to what? The average elk could sprint up a hill like it's nothing. Like, it's nothing. And by the way, it can ram its freaking head into stuff. They kill each other. They kill each other. We saw, we saw bodies on the ground. Elk bodies on the ground from fights.

• 1:32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:47Jocko Willink?

  And the other elk aren't super concerned about it because it's just kind of a thing. You know, you're gonna get, there's gonna be some casualties out there.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  That's life.

• 1:32:55Jocko Willink?

  In these scenarios, that's death.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  And what, you guys out there, what, no cellphone, no nothing, or you had service or what? Like, what kind?

• 1:33:03Jocko Willink?

  Very limited service.

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  Okay, spotty?

• 1:33:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, very, like, there was one little hill we'd go over. And at the top, you might catch a bar.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:13Jocko Willink?

  You know, I'd get seventy-eight tacks.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:16Jocko Willink?

  And then I'd just look at it and go, I'm just gonna keep walking until my service goes away.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I got, or I sent you a picture of something. And you know how like when you send a picture, somebody will say, delivered? You know? Didn't say delivered for like a long time, like later that day I looked.

• 1:33:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because I went over the top of that hill chasing an elk somewhere. But awesome experience.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  Good man, well, no elk this time.

• 1:33:39Jocko Willink?

  No, yup, empty-handed. I was gonna say awesome experiences, but I also have to add, empty-handed.

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  But, uh, knock on TV?

• 1:33:46Jocko Willink?

  Yup.

• 1:33:47Speaker 01

  Right, I follow them?

• 1:33:48Jocko Willink?

  Yup.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  And there was a picture early on?

• 1:33:51Jocko Willink?

  Yup.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Of an elk like close.

• 1:33:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  What happened with that scenario?

• 1:33:56Jocko Willink?

  Well, so where we are hunting, you have to take elk that are of a certain age. And if they're not old enough, you don't shoot them.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:04Jocko Willink?

  And so I ran into quite a few elk like that. It was very, it was very unlucky. And look, look.

• 1:34:12Jocko Willink?

  Is it okay? Am I saying I I just didn't get lucky? I'm telling you, um, I we I tried my hardest, man. So, you know, I tried my hardest, man. We spent a lot of time out there. We did everything we could. Dudley's an amazing hunter. We had a guide with us, amazing hunter. And, you know, the scenario that you're put into is as good of a scenario as you can get, really, for for elk hunting, but it's still not a guarantee, man. And we spent, you know, many, many, many hours and hiked very far and wide as long as we could, you know, to try and get it done. And it doesn't happen. So, the, you know, what you what you get out of it, I got a lot of experience out of it.

• 1:34:55Jocko Willink?

  Um, obviously, hanging out with a bunch of great guys up there, just a bunch of great people. And so that's that's awesome. But it's also humbling, you know, it's humbling. You don't always win, man. And if it bums you out that you don't win, find a different thing to do, because you're not always gonna win. It's like jiu-jitsu in that way. Like, if you just wanna win in jiu-jitsu, you don't train, because you're not just gonna win. It's not gonna happen.

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, in fact, you kinda, I mean, especially the whole journey, you lose. Especially on your way up, you're losing way more than you're winning in any capacity.

• 1:35:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, jiu-jitsu? Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  And I feel like in this elk scenario too, where, man, it's kinda like if you get one, that's like, that's like a big deal, you know?

• 1:35:38Jocko Willink?

  It's a it's a huge deal. Yeah, it's a huge deal.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Like, you not getting one, and I don't even know about elk hunting, by the way. But you not getting one, I wasn't like, oh, that's surprising. I was like, well, that makes sense to me. You know, you can go for weeks.

• 1:35:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and and and there's the scenario that I'm hunting in is a very, it's the best scenario you can put into. All most people that hunt are going out what they call a public land hunt, where you're just going out in the wild. I'm in a more controlled environment, where where there's a, where there's a.

• 1:36:12Jocko Willink?

  They have a better sense of of the number of elk that are there and that's why it's controlled like that.

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 1:36:19Jocko Willink?

  So, but like I said, hey, even with all those things stacked in my favor, it ain't no guarantee. You know, it ain't no guarantee and I'm living proof of that. Cause we tried, man. We tried. And I appreciate everyone's help, you know, that, you know. I mean, just the training and learning how to shoot. Just good, just good people trying to trying to make it happen, but.

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, yeah, and that's like a crazy feeling too. When I was young, I used to make slingshots. You cut the guava tree, the Y part.

• 1:36:50Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  You cut it, boom. I used to skin it and sand it and make it look cool, but.

• 1:36:55Jocko Willink?

  What would you write on there? Terminator nine.

• 1:36:58Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:37:00Jocko Willink?

  What was that weapon you used in some video, the spreader?

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  Spreader, yeah, contra.

• 1:37:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you probably, did you write spread?

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  Anyway, you put, uh, made out of, yeah, the guava tree and then you cut it, then you put, um, surgical tubing, you know, those different.

• 1:37:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh, bro, I mean, I made slingshots too.

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  That was your deal. Anyway, so you go out and you're trying to like hunt little birds and stuff, right? And it's like, bro, it's like kinda hard. It's not, you don't just, you're not just whacking birds all day. Like you're missing pretty much. So when you get one, it's like a huge, huge deal. So I kinda understand about the elk.

• 1:37:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  Same thing. You see what I'm saying?

• 1:37:40Jocko Willink?

  Dude, exact same thing, bro. Exact same thing.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Anyway, so you're not injured. That's good. You know, some cuts, some bruises. That's good.

• 1:37:47Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  I'm saying injuries and injuries is all part of the game for sure.

• 1:37:53Jocko Willink?

  You have to contend with injuries. Yes. 100%.

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  They're all in play.

• 1:37:57Jocko Willink?

  Let me say, I hate to say this. Maybe you can correct me if you think I'm wrong. But I would go so far as to say, if you're getting zero injuries, you might need to step it up a little bit, right? I'm not saying you wanna get injured, right? I hate being injured.

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:38:13Jocko Willink?

  I hate being injured.

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:16Jocko Willink?

  But the only way to completely avoid injury is. Playing video games.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  I don't do.

• 1:38:22Jocko Willink?

  Which even that, I guess you could get carpal tunnel syndrome or something.

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  Carpal tunnel, I think is like more of a typing thing. We're like, what do you call this? Pronated, supinated, right?

• 1:38:30Jocko Willink?

  Ask Greg Train.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:32Jocko Willink?

  Greg Train, whenever he's explaining moves, he's using his medical terms.

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  Anatomical position.

• 1:38:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Alright, so what are you getting at, bro?

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  I may, well.

• 1:38:40Jocko Willink?

  Long side.

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  Well, it wasn't necessarily getting at anything. I'm just trying to re like, visit kind of where we all are, you know? But you make a good point, like where, yeah, you're not, of course, you're not saying, I don't think it can be, I mean, I'm sure it can be, but I'm it. I'm not interpreting it as like, yes, you should pursue getting injured and that's when you know your heart, no, it's not that. But with most exercise, most, most worth it exercise is going to come with an element of risk.

• 1:39:08Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:39:09Speaker 01

  So whether you're pushing hard, whether you're going through dynamic terrain.

• 1:39:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:13Speaker 01

  Whether you, which can be a few different things, whether it be jujitsu, even like long distance outdoor running and stuff like this. It's like, this is all for real stuff, cliff, climb, you know, all this stuff. So yes.

• 1:39:24Jocko Willink?

  Cliff climbing.

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  Well, you know, that's not my jam. Obviously, I don't know what's called cliff. What is it called?

• 1:39:30Jocko Willink?

  It's just called.

• 1:39:31Speaker 01

  Rock climbing.

• 1:39:31Jocko Willink?

  Rock climbing, sure. Oh, cliff climbing? I mean, technically, right? They are rocks and they are a cliff. So we're good either way.

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  Anyway, as we get older.

• 1:39:41Jocko Willink?

  Or slingshot hunting.

• 1:39:44Jocko Willink?

  Very similar to elk hunting.

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, sometimes.

• 1:39:46Jocko Willink?

  Same thing, pretty much.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  It can be, yes, very, very similar. Uh, well, on our way through this path, whatever it may be, exercise wise, we do need supplementation.

• 1:39:58Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes not just be, not just exercise, but also cognitively, sometimes we want supplementation as well.

• 1:40:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, to, to, to reap full benefits of that the path provides. Yes, I agree. So let's talk about choco fuel. Got you. Supplementation all day, physical. Wait, okay, so we start, start with the foundation, the structure. Doesn't mean as much in my experience, anyway. I've only lived one life, of course, so far. Early on in life versus later on in life, it seems like the structure kind of signif- is more significant. In my experience, you don't worry about your joints, you know, your back, you know how like people like when you get, when you get uh like trainers, they'll be like, hey, you need to start with your core.

• 1:40:43Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  You see what I'm saying?

• 1:40:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  Because your core is where your base and all this stuff, Brad, let's face it, when you're young, you're like, core.

• 1:40:49Jocko Willink?

  Whatever.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  Bro, what are you even talking about?

• 1:40:51Jocko Willink?

  You're just thinking arms, biceps.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  Bench, see what's up with that bench, yeah, no one's doing core max out anyway. But as you grow older, you understand, so.

• 1:41:01Jocko Willink?

  Is that a thing, core max outs, even to make fun of it, because I've never heard that before, but it's very funny. Like, hey, let's do some core max outs.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  What do you max, core? No, no, no. Uh, yeah, I don't know, I just made it up, but it's, it sounded correct. And given the circumstances, nonetheless, the point is joints, joint warfare, this is what, okay, Jocko joint warfare, this is supplementation for your joints. Keep them in, in check, in check, in the game. Start at the foundation.

• 1:41:30Jocko Willink?

  Bro, Dudley had a little knee tweak while we were up in the mountains. And he was just dosing joint warfare and he, and he was in a, he was in like an Echo Charles situation where he didn't have it. And then he went back on it and his knee was just, he was able to power through.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  You know what bursitis is?

• 1:41:49Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  Okay, so I get.

• 1:41:51Jocko Willink?

  I've had it before.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  I, yeah, okay, I've had bursitis on my shoulder and my heel. Yeah, my heel, it's weird. So I get bursitis now. When, because I didn't do this before, I do deep squats, barefoot.

• 1:42:05Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  For some reason, I get bursitis in my heel.

• 1:42:09Jocko Willink?

  Just genetic weakness, really.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  Possible. Nonetheless, when these things happen, I have this weird like confidence, like it'll happen, like I'll do it, then the next day, like I'll be walking down the stairs. Oh, man, like it, it feels like, almost like a shark, it's a, it's a weird, very distinct feeling in your heel. But I always have this weird like subconscious almost feeling that it's like, oh, this is gonna be gone immediately. Even though it's like really bad. So you know, when you have injury and then you have full recovery.

• 1:42:37Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  That time to me just feels like in my brain, I'm so confident that that time is gonna be like almost no time.

• 1:42:43Jocko Willink?

  Cause the next day. Cause the joint warfare.

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  Cause you're on the joint warfare. Yeah, that's how it feels.

• 1:42:47Jocko Willink?

  And the krill oil, really?

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. The combo hundred percent. So sure enough, next day it's still sore, just as sore. I'm like, frick, this is like, this might be something serious. You know, like it might be bad. The next day after that, pretty much gone.

• 1:42:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  It's like it just, it's like it decides to just be, I just feel like, you know, it's one of those, one of those deals. Nonetheless.

• 1:43:06Jocko Willink?

  So joint warfare, krill oil, discipline, discipline, go.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, let's start with milk though. So from the, like, consider the foundation and then you start to go up. You gotta build, you gotta build. See what I'm saying? So you can be doing curls, shoulder press, lat raises, building up the upper body. Right? Won't mean nothing.

• 1:43:28Jocko Willink?

  Why does that get a whisper?

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  It won't mean anything if your joints are jammed up. So you gotta take care. So now go up. Now, when you're doing the bench, when you're doing the, in your case, deadlift, whatever you do. Deep squats all day. You're gonna need the protein supplementation for rebuilding. That's when you implement the milk.

• 1:43:49Jocko Willink?

  I had milk with me on my trip and like, we said, I stayed one night at a hotel up, heading up there, milk city.

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  Roughing it up.

• 1:43:57Jocko Willink?

  Milk city.

• 1:44:00Jocko Willink?

  Good. Yeah. You know, they got the little, well, here's the thing. They got the little travel. Sam packs.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You brought them.

• 1:44:05Jocko Willink?

  Those things are awesome.

• 1:44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:07Jocko Willink?

  You know, in an airport, you can't bring fluid through. So you just walk through, get yourself a little milk with your milk pouch.

• 1:44:14Speaker 01

  Sure. And they'll probably.

• 1:44:15Jocko Willink?

  Break it out.

• 1:44:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Actually, that is a good, cause I have a bunch of those, the, the little packs. I think they're like from the musters and stuff and you know, P K's, he sent them to me.

• 1:44:25Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  I don't bust into that at home. I got the big jug, whatever. Yeah, that's good, man. It's a good move. Nonetheless, it's there for.

• 1:44:32Jocko Willink?

  Long time.

• 1:44:33Speaker 01

  Bro, I'm, I'm trying to explain it to you. You keep, you know, trying to make me elaborate on these things. Okay.

• 1:44:38Jocko Willink?

  So if you can, you see if you can. Go.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  These, these are things that I feel are beneficial to know if you see it as in its entirety as a system.

• 1:44:49Jocko Willink?

  I'm trying to stay quiet, but now you're getting crazy.

• 1:44:51Speaker 01

  There you go. Okay. So you really, okay, your joints are taken care of. Ready? All good. Your muscles, boom, you work them, break them down, rebuild them, milk supplemental protein in the form of these are all good. Work in milk too, by the way. So if your kids, you need general protein and they like, you know, the dessert scenario as well. So that's available. Then your body, all good, all degenerating, regenerating, bigger, all good, structure, foundation, all good. Now you need the mind, your mind, keep you mentally in the game. Boom. That's where the discipline comes in. You're saying discipline, discipline, go, uh, cans, powder, whatever you like. That's your choice. That part is on you.

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  I can't give accurate, specific guidance on what's uh, implementation methodology.

• 1:45:39Jocko Willink?

  Fair enough.

• 1:45:40Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, if you're into the energy drink scenario, get the cans.

• 1:45:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, actually, yeah, if you're into the energy drink scenario, as you just put it.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:50Jocko Willink?

  That's not good. If you're into normal energy drink scenarios, that's not good because those things are not good for you. And I know it might, might sound crazy, but discipline go in a can is good for you.

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:01Jocko Willink?

  It is good for you.

• 1:46:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's.

• 1:46:03Jocko Willink?

  There's no sugar in there. There's vitamins in there. There's caffeine, 95 milligrams, grams of caffeine, which is not some crazy. You know, run around. There's some name for a dude like this, but anyways, you know that dude.

• 1:46:19Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. Yeah, we do.

• 1:46:20Jocko Willink?

  This isn't that. This is.

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:23Jocko Willink?

  Like a mic, it's, it's, it's just, it's just, it's good for you.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it, okay. So I went kind of deep, like, okay. So I've been talking to Pete and Brian recently. So I, you know, you kind of go deep in these rabbit holes. Like, okay, like other, so apparently other energy drinks do a lot of wonky stuff. With the, and it's, and it's wonky, meaning like they advertise this, but then meanwhile, they're doing a lot of this, all this stuff that they sort of omit when they advertise, you know? So you just. You you kind of get maybe more than you've bargained for some.

• 1:46:53Jocko Willink?

  In a bad way.

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  In a bad way.

• 1:46:55Jocko Willink?

  Not a good way.

• 1:46:56Speaker 01

  So and I wound up watching this video. It was a comedy video for sure. It was called like a lot of people make this kind of video like if energy drink advertiser to advertisers were honest. And the guy and it's like this official guy and he's saying like all this stuff. He wasn't talking about any specific energy drink. So I was like, bro, he's talking about all this like poison and stuff like this is what they do to do this and it makes it this and this is that. So if when you're consuming your energy drink of death, like saying all this stuff, I'm like dang, bro, like, I don't even know. Cause I used to like energy drinks.

• 1:47:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, you were working late at night and everything.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:32Jocko Willink?

  Lacking, plus you were lacking energy.

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  But now I feel kind of betrayed. But not anymore. Discipline. Go boom, all day, all healthy, hundred percent. Preserve it is. Nope.

• 1:47:42Jocko Willink?

  Nope, pasteurized.

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, get on that.

• 1:47:45Jocko Willink?

  Sugar? Nope, monk fruit.

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  Yep, monk fruit, no sugar. So yeah, all good. There it is. And while so while you're on the path, that's supplementation but supplementation methodology. Perfection. It's a perfect system. Anyway, you get all these stuff, all this stuff at originmaine.com or at the vitamin shop. If you're walking in.

• 1:48:06Jocko Willink?

  Or if you're in Florida or Virginia, we got a little situation coming to the Wawa stores.

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:48:14Jocko Willink?

  We'll be there in October.

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the.

• 1:48:19Jocko Willink?

  Go get some.

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  So this is how it goes. If you're in Florida or Virginia. In the morning, you take the joint warfare. Before you or depends on when you work out before the workout on your way to the gym. If you're going to the gym. Stop at Wawa, you get the discipline go.

• 1:48:34Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  Boom to the gym, hit the gym, smash the gym. Really? Smash it. Come home, boom, monk all day.

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  You'd be on the path big time. Just establish that routine. Anyway, back to origin, origin, origin.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  Originmaine.com also on there, American made stuff, straight up jeans, boots.

• 1:48:58Jocko Willink?

  Gis, rash guards, t-shirts.

• 1:49:02Jocko Willink?

  American-made stuff.

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:04Jocko Willink?

  Which, which may not seem like a big deal. But it is a huge deal. It's a huge deal. You know, you know what the typical business scenario is? Hey, cool. Let's start a brand.

• 1:49:18Jocko Willink?

  Outsource it to some overseas place. Get the prices cheap as you can. Take advantage of, of, of slave labor, basically.

• 1:49:30Jocko Willink?

  And then we'll bring it back here and we'll sell it for some incredible markup and make a bunch of money and not hire anybody because we're just gonna keep it all.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:36Jocko Willink?

  Or you can do what we're doing. Build it here. Treat workers well because they have awesome value. Become self-sufficient as a country. Maintain knowledge, ancient knowledge, which is almost lost. Almost lost. We got it. You know, that, that, that situation when the ball's about to go out of bounds at someone gets there just in time? That's what, that's what Origin is doing. Just in time. To save the knowledge.

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:50:10Jocko Willink?

  And, and the big corporations, you know what they say? You cannot make this stuff here. It's impossible. No, it's not. It was done before. We're doing it now. Watch me.

• 1:50:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's kind, you know, like these, like the jeans, for example, like when you think about it, like, oh yeah, the designer jeans, like, when you consider really what are you paying for this? It's like the, whatever the brand, but what do you like for real paying for? Like, what do you care about, about those, those jeans? You know? Sure, the fit. Okay, that's good. If that's a thing, if that's for real a thing, let's face it.

• 1:50:48Jocko Willink?

  I've been thinking about that whole aspect of designer jeans, and you know what? These are designer jeans. They're designed for work. They're designed to last. They're designed to function properly in all scenarios. So they are designer jeans. They're designed for work. Get some of that.

• 1:51:03Speaker 01

  All right, there you go. All right, thanks. Sign me up. Oh, yeah, my favorite jeans, 100%. Also, Jocko has a store. It's called Jocko Store. And this is where you can get your shirts while, while you're on this path. You want to represent discipline equals freedom. Good. We've got shirts, hats, hoodies. New board shorts, by the way.

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  Good utility, water, jujitsu, all that. They're brand new. Anyway, uh, some, so some Irish Oaks Ranch soap, Jocko soap, Jupers soap, Warrior Kid soap, all that stuff. Anyway, yes, Jocko store.com. If you like something, get something.

• 1:51:42Jocko Willink?

  You can also listen to some podcasts that we have, including this one. You can subscribe to it. And you can, you can leave a, what do they say?

• 1:51:52Speaker 01

  Leave a review.

• 1:51:52Jocko Willink?

  Leave a review.

• 1:51:53Speaker 01

  Comment and like. Here's the thing, I would say, okay, so you, Jocko Vilink. You currently have the best content as far as comments go. So not even necessarily on your, okay, so you did the one, the, the stuff for GQ, the, the movies or whatever.

• 1:52:13Jocko Willink?

  Breakdown.

• 1:52:14Speaker 01

  The breakdowns. And there was another one. I think it might've been your TED Talk. Brad, should I read those comments? Bro, it's like, uh, like when, when Jocko was born, the doctor turned to his parents and said, it's a man. You know, like that kind of, man, it's so funny. Or when Jocko left, left for college, he told his father, you're the man of the house now. Bro, you, I'm reading these like laughing out loud, reading all these comments. Oh, man, it's the best. Nonetheless, yes, we have a YouTube channel. Uh, so yes, subscribe to that too. Leave a comment if you want to. If you have one of those, man, I don't even care if it's like kind of funny, but just, just say them. Those comments, really good.

• 1:52:55Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Uh, uh, we also have other podcasts, by the way. We have a podcast called The Unraveling, which we are about to launch on its own. What? Feed?

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:04Jocko Willink?

  So we have that, The Unraveling, Jocko Unraveling, Look That Up. Um, we got more episodes coming and we're starting to get caught up to where the episodes are a little bit more, let's say, current to what's happening in the world right now. We spent a lot of time of Iraq. We've, we've, so we're, we're going, so check those out if you want to check those out. We got the Grounded Podcast, which we haven't done in a long time, although it kind of seems like we just did one. As you tried to explain the methodology for taking Mulk, which is fine, you know, you know?

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  It's critical.

• 1:53:33Jocko Willink?

  It's, you know, we gotta use decentralized command here. You, I gotta let you run with it sometimes. It's all good. Warrior Kid Podcast, haven't done one of those in a while as well, so, um, sorry.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  Straight up, that's it.

• 1:53:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:47Speaker 01

  Well, there you go. They're all good podcasts, very valuable. But yes, maybe not quite as consistent as a Jocko podcast. And you know, it makes sense. Anyway, yes, and I mentioned the YouTube channel. We have YouTube channel. So yes, video version, all that stuff, excerpts, all good. Also psychological warfare. If you need a boost from Jocko, telling you the right thing to do when you're about to do the wrong thing, AKA skip a workout, AKA eat donuts, AKA do, do something that you know you're not supposed to do. You never planned to do it. In fact, you plan not to do it, but a moment of weakness is kind of luring you in, whatever you want. Jocko will tell you why you should or shouldn't do something. Boom. There you go. Psychological warfare.

• 1:54:27Jocko Willink?

  Uh, don't forget about if you flip side canvas, flip side canvas.com Dakota Myers, company making stuff to hang on your wall. That is graphically cool.

• 1:54:39Jocko Willink?

  Got a bunch of books. Got this book here called About Face. I wasn't sure because it's a, a reissue. I wasn't sure if there would be, and if this would be quote, a first,

• 1:54:51Jocko Willink?

  a dish. I just got my copies and I found out that yes, indeed. What you have with this book, this version of this is a first edition of this version. You can see it right there above where it says library of Congress, Congress. There's a numbers one through 10. And when this is the first edition, which means the one is there. After the first edition is gone, you won't see that one anymore. That's a problem. So you'll be on second edition, which

• 1:55:24Jocko Willink?

  pretty much is an awful place to be.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  Terrible, brutal, brutal. What's the, uh, what's the, the actual like name now?

• 1:55:31Jocko Willink?

  It's just called About Face. There's no change to it. All it says is forward by Jocko Willink. So there's no other change to it. I mean, the cover, the cover is also a little bit different. Yeah, it's actually, I guess a lot different. So. Well, it's not a lot different. There's a helmet. It's a little bit different. So yeah, and we'll link it, link it to the right one. I've been signing about faces for a long time. The people bring me about face and I'll sign them. So that's pretty cool. And now I get to sign one that is even just a little bit cooler. And now you can get a first, it's hard to get a first edition of the original book. Now you can get a first edition of the reissue, the relaunch. Anyways, check it out. Don't forget

• 1:56:16Jocko Willink?

  about the code.

• 1:56:19Jocko Willink?

  Written by me, Dave Burke, Sarah Armstrong, Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual. All the answers are in there, by the way. All the answers are in there. So, so check that one out. We got Way of the Warrior Kid 1, 2, and 3. We got Mikey and the Dragons. We got Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. We got Extreme Ownership, and we got The Dichotomy of Leadership, all kinds of books. If you like what I talk about here, you can get more. You can get, you can get the books and read about it and, and, and overlay and understand these things in a much deeper way. We also have Echelon Front, which is my leadership consultancy where we solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com for details on that. We got EF Online, which is me talking, answering questions. Got the rest of the Echelon Front

• 1:57:02Jocko Willink?

  team there. We're doing live things. We got a forum. We got Leadership Primer and Immediate Action, just all kinds of stuff. To help you as a leader. We got the muster, which is our leadership event. There's only one in 2020 due to the COVID virus. It's gonna be in Dallas, Texas, December 3rd and 4th. Go to extremeownership.com for details. Now, listen, we've done, every one of these that we've done is sold out. We were gonna do two earlier this year. They both got canceled because of COVID. And so people have transferred their tickets over to that one. So this one's gonna sell out. Plus, we, it looks like we might have to have less seating depending on the COVID

• 1:57:44Jocko Willink?

  scenario. So if you want to come, come and sign up now. And of course, we have EF Overwatch. Executive leadership for your company that understand the principles that we're talking about. People leaving the military, whether retired, they're getting out. These are experienced leaders that can come help you and your company. Go to efoverwatch.com. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, their families, their Gold Star families around the world, then check out Mark Lee's mom.

• 1:58:14Jocko Willink?

  Mama Lee, she's got a charity organization called America's Mighty Warriors. Go to Americas Mighty Warriors.org to donate or get involved. And if you need to hear more of my overburdened oration, or you feel you need to absorb more of Echo's unbridled banter, then you can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, which is what Echo calls "The Gram", and Facebook. Echo is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jocko Willink. And thanks to Colonel David Hackworth for writing this book.

• 1:58:55Jocko Willink?

  But more important, thanks to Colonel Hackworth for his service and sacrifice, and for his dedication to our country and to his soldiers, and a dedication that never wavered. And the rest of the military personnel that are listening, active duty, retired veterans, thank you for your dedication as well. With a special dedication from Hack, to all the doughboys, the ground pounders, the grunts, the American infantrymen, past, present, and future. Thanks to all of you. And to the police and law enforcement, and the firefighters and paramedics, and EMTs, and dispatchers, and correctional officers, and Border Patrol, and Secret Service,

• 1:59:39Jocko Willink?

  and to all the other first responders, thank you for your level of dedication that you also show to keep us safe here at home. And to everyone else out there, let's remember that lesson from Henry C. DeBoer, who died on that frozen piece of Korea on February 6, 1951. The lesson is if you're taking care of yourself, if you're making yourself the priority, then you're a coward. But if you take care of others, if you step up and do the right things for the right reasons,

• 2:00:21Jocko Willink?

  if you put the needs of others above yourself, you will be a hero. So go and be heroic. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.