387. The truth about narcissism ...

When did ‘narcissist’ become the go-to explanation for every difficult person - and what do we lose when one word starts covering everything from basic selfishness to genuine psychological harm? In this bonus episode, we break down what psychologists actually mean by narcissism: where the term came from, what it truly means, and how the term has been adopted in our society. We explore: • Differences between Narcissistic Personality Disorder and narcissistic traits • The two main forms of narcissism • How has the term become overused? • The dangers of simplifying the term • Can narcissists ever change? Or is it all pretend? Listen now! Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# Subscribe on Substack: @thepsychologyofyour20s https://substack.com/@thepsychologyofyour20s For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jemma Sbeg?

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• 0:04Speaker 01

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• 0:34Jemma Sbeg?

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• 1:11Jemma Sbeg?

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• 3:11Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. I'm Jemma Sbeg and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.

• 3:30Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another episode. I think this is the first episode in like five episodes where I'm no longer sick and you guys don't have to listen to like a disgusting nasal noise come into your ears. So for that, I am grateful and for that I am excited for today's episode. We have another, well, I should say I have another mini-episode for you today. If you are not familiar with our mini-episodes, they're basically kind of smaller bite-sized episodes where we break down a certain phrase, a certain psychological concept that gets thrown around a lot online.

• 4:17Jemma Sbeg?

  TikToks in dating discourse, in group chats. And essentially, we dissect what it actually means according to the psychology rather than according to the pop culture. And today, we are tackling, let's be, let's be honest, the most requested, the most weaponized, and probably the most misunderstood term and label of them all. We are talking about narcissism. I'm not going to waste any time today because we have so much to talk about, but narcissism is such a fascinating term when you scratch even below, a tiny inch below the surface.

• 4:58Jemma Sbeg?

  And it's also such an ancient term, which I think a lot of people might not know, probably maybe know, given its modern day popularity. So you may have heard of the Greek myth of narcissus before. Basically, this is where the term comes from. Narcissus was this incredibly handsome, striking young man who just really cruelly rejected all of his admirers. So he didn't want anything to do with any of them, all these beautiful women. This led to the goddess Nemesis punishing narcissus with an all-consuming love for nothing but his own reflection. So much so that the story goes, he drowned staring at his reflection in a pond, like

• 5:43Jemma Sbeg?

  so consumed by it, wanting so much more of it. This is where the term basically gets its name from this man, narcissus. It didn't actually become a psychological term until much, much later in the eighteen hundreds. In eighteen ninety-eight, a theorist, his name was Havelock Ellis, was the first to use the narcissus myth to describe a particular kind of client or person he was seeing. People who were basically just obsessed with themselves. And for him, they were really obsessed with themselves, like sexually, like they truly thought that they were.

• 6:23Jemma Sbeg?

  The hottest thing out, they were really consumed by themselves and he was seeing this pattern of individual. He also knew the story. That is where narcissism originally got its label. And from there, psychoanalysts like Otto Rank and Sigmund Freud expanded on this to say that narcissism was more of a normal characteristic of someone's personality, rather than something that was exclusively sexual. And it was a spectrum that we all kind of sat upon. All of us can be a little bit narcissistic, or all of us can have quite a low ego that makes us not narcissistic at all.

• 7:03Jemma Sbeg?

  When it becomes a little bit unbalanced and skewed, and when somebody has more, a bigger, higher dosage, higher level of narcissism compared to all their other traits, that creates the type of person that we are familiar with. The one who we would say has a disordered way of seeing the world and engaging with others because they are a narcissist. So, in simple terms, narcissism is a personality trait made up of a cluster of behaviors and smaller traits, like, one, a heightened sense of self-importance, two, entitlement to special

• 7:40Jemma Sbeg?

  treatment, three, a strong need for admiration, and four, low empathy and exploitative behavior. More broadly, narcissism is often described as closely tied to the pursuit of status. No matter what, there is this drive within this individual to be impressive, to be the center of attention, to be kind of socially, emotionally, physically untouchable in some kind of way. And that's one of the key points, I think, gets mixed up pretty often. Narcissism is not just high self-esteem.

• 8:22Jemma Sbeg?

  And thinking that you are incredible, because some people are really incredible. Some people are just really cool and they're successful and they know that and they don't actually need to be humble about it. Healthy self-esteem is this, you know, th- this is what we would label healthy self-esteem. Their basis for their positive, for their positive kind of assumptions about themselves are based in evidence. They are actually an incredible person, but also these people can accept criticism and they can bounce back from failure. And they can bounce back from not being chosen. They can bounce back from not needing to be the best at something.

• 9:01Jemma Sbeg?

  Narcissists, on the other hand, yes, may present as incredibly confident, yes, may be successful. But what's underneath that is a deep, deep fragility. That gives them an incredibly unhealthy self-esteem that is tied to equal parts their own sense of self-importance and then equal parts the need for everybody else in the room to see them as important. And this fragility, this fragility is what fuels defensiveness, blame, um, control, contempt for others. They need to maintain their self-image at all costs because without it, they are just this

• 9:46Jemma Sbeg?

  very fragile, very weak, very scared individual underneath it all. Let's talk about really quickly the distinction between having narcissistic personality disorder and having something that we call basically like having trait narcissism. So just a high level of narcissistic attributes because they are quite different. Narcissistic personality disorder is a very real diagnosis. Somebody can get this label in their file. And it was first introduced, as we said, in the eighties, but it's actually not that common. Narcissistic personality disorder, I think it has a prevalence of anywhere between

• 10:27Jemma Sbeg?

  zero point two to like zero point six percent of the population. And that's mainly based on US population studies. It is actually around fifty to seventy five percent more common in males than females. But some people have said that's just because women may be better at hiding it than men are because of this socially, social conditioning to be more humble, even if that's not the way they truly feel. The key thing that the American Psychiatric Association highlights though is that, again, to get to this point of being like, you are disordered, you have a serious problem, something, it has to be very drastic.

• 11:09Jemma Sbeg?

  Most people don't get this diagnosis unless, you know, they've experienced several marriage breakdowns, they've um come to contact with the court system, they have been an abusive partner, like, it's quite difficult actually to get that label. Um, in most cases, when we encounter somebody who thinks very highly of themselves, is very desperate to seem successful and admirable, um, they may not have a diagnosis, they may not be worthy of a diagnosis, but they may be high in this thing that I just mentioned called trait narcissism. Trait narcissism is not a disorder, it's basically a personality style.

• 11:52Jemma Sbeg?

  It is a set of tendencies you can kind of score higher or lower on and doesn't automatically mean that, again, you have a disorder. Trait narcissism, the thing that we are more commonly encountering, basically shows up in two very broad forms. The first is grandiose narcissism. So this is the typical idea of narcissism that we see. Grandiose narcissism is the big inflated ego, it's social dominance, it's this larger-than-life personality. Sometimes these people can come off as really charming and really persuasive, but they can also be very aggressive and very entitled. This is the idea, again, we know most often.

• 12:35Jemma Sbeg?

  I'm sure you can think of a couple of political or. Cultural examples going on at the moment. The second distinct form of narcissism is vulnerable narcissism. This is the person that we don't always notice, but who is a lot more insidious and sometimes harmful. Because their pattern of behaviours doesn't look like arrogance. Um, really, it's about emotional insecurity and defensiveness. They are easily hurt, they are easily embarrassed, they're easily threatened.

• 13:14Jemma Sbeg?

  And so what they end up doing is trying to put you down, trying to emotionally manipulate their surroundings so that they are always the victim, so that they always get special treatment. So that no matter what, they are at the centre of attention. But what it, it's this interesting thing where the reason they're at the centre of the tension, centre of attention isn't always because of their achievements. Sometimes it's because of their pain and suffering. Sometimes it's because they're the one who always has the most dramatic story that they need to one up everybody else in the room with. This is vulnerable narcissism.

• 13:57Jemma Sbeg?

  Now, here's where it gets even more interesting because psychologists have basically realised that just saying grandiose versus vulnerable trait narcissism still doesn't fully explain it. So more recent models break it down into three core components. The first component of what makes somebody's narcissistic personality is antagonism. And this tends to show up in both grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. Antagonism is that entitlement, that exploitiveness, that desire to get what you want. It's when there is an assumption from somebody that the rules don't apply to me, I can get away with whatever I want to.

• 14:42Jemma Sbeg?

  And the people around me, they're not just people. They are resources, they are status symbols, they are threats, they are something that can be manipulated. I can antagonise them, I can manipulate them into doing what I want them to.

• 15:03Jemma Sbeg?

  Component two is something called agentic extraversion. And this is more commonly and closely linked to grandiose narcissism. Basically, social dominance, assertiveness, charisma. This, again, looks like somebody who needs to be the leader. They need to be the most impressive, successful person, the loudest person, the most, the smartest person in a very specific kind of way. And then the final and third and final component is narcissistic neuroticism. And this is where, I know I'm really drilling home this point, but this is where vulnerable and grandiose narcissism

• 15:46Jemma Sbeg?

  differ, because somebody with vulnerable narcissism might not have that extraversion. But what they will have is um this real sensitivity to criticism. And almost this like split, I don't wanna say split personality, because that's not what it is, but it does give that appearance of this person is really nice, they're so innocent, they're so kind, they're so lovely, they've had such a hard time. And then when somebody does criticize them, when they are not the center of attention, they go in for the kill. They they see you now as a threat, they need to annihilate your character. They become very defensive, they become angry, they become resentful, they become withdrawn.

• 16:31Jemma Sbeg?

  And this is why, you know, both those types of individuals have trait narcissism, but they look so different. And I think that vulnerable narcissism we're talking about is the kind that, again, is so insidious. You maybe can notice it in the relationship you have with family members or a friend, where you are having this very different experience to what other people are having with this person, because they haven't been able to see through this, this kind of mask yet and see what these behaviors and this personality, this pattern of personality really is, which is that this person needs to be the most important.

• 17:14Jemma Sbeg?

  And going about it the grandiose way maybe hasn't worked for them. So this is the new way they're gonna do it. Equally through emotional manipulation, but through a different kind of emotional manipulation. So how do you actually spot a real narcissist? I wanna be really careful here. You, you cannot diagnose narcissistic personality disorder from the outside. You cannot diagnose it from one argument. And you definitely can't diagnose it from somebody just being a little bit frustrating or a little bit egocentric. We all mess up in public spaces sometimes. We all have moments of being a little bit grandiose.

• 17:55Jemma Sbeg?

  We all have moments where we've definitely dominated a conversation or we've been a little bit selfish. That doesn't necessarily give somebody a disordered way of thinking. And it doesn't necessarily make them high in trait narcissism unless it is a continued pattern. And even then, I would be very wary of saying this person has NPD. I would probably say this person is high in narcissistic traits. But here are some questions to ask yourself if you genuinely think somebody is this and is this kind of force in your life. Number one, do you think this person actually cares about you? Or do they care about what you can do for them? Do you believe this person sees you as their equal?

• 18:38Jemma Sbeg?

  Number two, do they take on board criticism well? Very easy. Number three, are they always at the centre of things? Or do they let people tag in to the spotlight? Number four, do different rules apply to them compared to everybody else? And can you see that in their behaviour?

• 19:04Jemma Sbeg?

  Number five, do they always need to be superior to be admired? Or do they always have to be right? Even if it costs you your dignity and your reputation and your wellbeing? Basically, do you believe that you have a genuine relationship or are you just a porn? Let's pause here. Those questions are useful. I also know what a lot of you guys are thinking. Oh my god, what if that's me? Am I a narcissist? I can relate to sometimes not taking criticism well. I can relate to sometimes wanting the spotlight. I like to be right. Every time I talk about narcissism, I always think that I'm a narcissist.

• 19:49Jemma Sbeg?

  Always, I don't know why. And every time I make an episode or I mention narcissism, I always get questions and comments from people being like, is that me? Can you, can you diagnose me? Can you tell me if I'm one of these people? So I'm gonna give you a little bit of a personal checklist as well to rule out or rule in. Maybe you are a narcissist, you're probably not. But to rule out that you are probably, probably not. Can you apologize without adding, but you made me? Yes or no? When you are criticized, do you genuinely care about why? Do you genuinely try to change your behavior?

• 20:33Jemma Sbeg?

  Or do you just attack and deflect? Do you treat people as whole humans or just as an audience? When you feel insecure in a situation, at work, do you try and repair the situation? Do you try and take time away and examine your insecurity? Or do you just try and dominate other people in the space? Can you be wrong?

• 21:03Jemma Sbeg?

  Can you be wrong? Have you been wrong in the last little while? It's a, it's a great litmus test. Are you actually interested in other people's lives? That is the litmus test. Those are the questions that I always give people or always think of when that thought comes into my head. I also know even just questioning, am I a narcissist? Shows, shows me, shows you guys that you're probably not. Because if you were a narcissist, your ego most likely wouldn't even let you consider that as a possibility. So. It's this funny irony, right? Thinking that you are probably means that you aren't. You are very much safe here.

• 21:46Jemma Sbeg?

  Okay, let's take a short break because after this, we need to zoom out and talk about why this word has exploded culturally and whether we are actually becoming more narcissistic as a society. So stay with us.

• 22:04Speaker 01

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• 22:34Jemma Sbeg?

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• 23:11Jemma Sbeg?

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• 26:06Jemma Sbeg?

  Is that because narcissism is actually increasing in society?

• 26:12Jemma Sbeg?

  Or just because it's become a bit of a phenomenon. Because it's just become a source of fascination. The thing is, researchers aren't really that sure. Because society has become more individualistic. It has become more narcissist friendly with the rise of social media. Is that just meaning that narcissistic voices or narcissistic individuals, they are getting more of a spotlight? Or is the underlying prevalence actually increasing? So in two thousand and eight, researchers from San Diego State University, they published their decades-long findings on this very question.

• 26:56Jemma Sbeg?

  They had a sample of over sixteen thousand people that they basically looked at between the years of nineteen seventy nine and two thousand and six. They wanted to see across these, quick my math, thirty years, let's say, across these thirty years, are we seeing an increase or is it something else at play? That's a lot of people. And what they found was that there was a thirty percent increase in narcissistic traits based on the earlier years' average. So every year, they were seeing a slight thirty percent uptick. Now, you have to remember, that's not thirty percent on, on like,

• 27:36Jemma Sbeg?

  already half of this population had narcissism or had high narcissistic traits. This was like a thirty percent uptick on like zero point two. And then on zero point five, and then on one percent, and then on two percent. So it still was quite minor. But when you hear thirty percent, you really, your eyes kind of go wide of like, oh my god, does that really mean like one in three people around me are high in narcissism? Not necessarily, that is just one finding. And it definitely gets more complicated as to whether narcissism is just more visible or more prevalent. A more recent two thousand and twenty four, large-scale. Meta-analysis challenged this idea that we have a narcissism epidemic.

• 28:22Jemma Sbeg?

  Researchers, they pulled results from over a thousand papers looking at narcissism scores using that same measure they used in the San Diego study. And they looked at it globally from a little bit of a, of a longer period, nineteen eighty-two to two thousand and twenty-three. And what was important about this study is that it also included, you know, the twenty-tens and the early twenty-twenty's where social media really blew up. They actually found that narcissistic traits were pretty stable in the eighties and nineties. They then actually decreased in the two thousands. And in more recent decades, which completely contrasts the previous study.

• 29:06Jemma Sbeg?

  Here is my take that nobody asked for, but I'm going to give it to you in the spirit of self-centeredness and narcissism. I just think that our culture has, has made narcissism and the visibility of narcissism rise to the surface. It's not actually increased it. The genuine level of true narcissism and people who truly have narcissistic personality disorder is pretty stable. They're definitely still out there. It's just given us much more visibility of people who may have, have higher rates of this trait. Especially because those kinds of people who do like attention and who do like being the center and who do have a strong ego, they thrive in online spaces.

• 29:51Jemma Sbeg?

  They really do, like being a narcissi- not, not being a narcissist, having high narcissistic traits would make social media a lot easier for you. I think it would also make it a lot harder for you as well, because obviously you get to a certain level of fame and you are going to get criticism. And that's when we see people get really reactive and very angry. That's like a, a very big sign, but you know, we have built this world where it's easier than ever to manage your self-worth. Externally, through metrics, through visibility, through likes, through follower count, through, you know, a curated identity, and that self-presentation is rewarded. Now, again, let's be careful here, wanting attention, wanting to blow up online, wanting

• 30:34Jemma Sbeg?

  to post more content, liking yourself does not make you a narcissist. There are people out there who are truly very manipulative and do not want to change and who cause a whole lot of pain. So we, we have to be really careful with overusing this term. If everyone is a narcissist, if it continues to be this casual phrase, then the word stops holding as much power and needing as much attention in cases where someone is genuinely problematic, maybe even dangerous. I think the other issue with our overuse is that it can invalidate people who have

• 31:14Jemma Sbeg?

  lived through a genuine pattern of narcissistic abuse or narcissistic control that, and they just want to be taken seriously. They just want people to really see the pattern that they have gone through without people assuming that they're just being dramatic or they're just latching on to the new buzz hype word. Think about cases of, again, narcissistic abuse or workplace harassment. It can turn, this overuse can turn their experience into just another internet buzzword. And it makes it easier, again, for outsiders to dismiss it as, oh, it's just another bitter breakup, or it's, you know, everybody's boss is a little bit narcissistic, everybody, everybody's

• 31:59Jemma Sbeg?

  boss is a little bit terrible, rather than recognizing that for some people, it was prolonged manipulation, prolonged character assassination, coercion, psychological harm, and they are paying the price, whether it was in a relationship, whether it was with a parent, with a sibling, with a friend, with a boss, with a coworker. Because of this, I would honestly say.

• 32:28Jemma Sbeg?

  We need to widen our vocabulary a little bit for why somebody we may think is a narcissist, why it was that their behaviour is so off or so painful, without just slapping on the easiest label we can find. I think this also may help us, you know, privately understand what we've been through and understand our pain. But, you know, the narcissist label, it may be a shortcut that does a disservice. What were you actually experiencing? What about this person was truly, you know, difficult to endure? Were they manipulative? Were they domineering? Did they never let you speak? Did they never let you control the friendship or control the relationship? Did they never ask you how your day was?

• 33:13Jemma Sbeg?

  Did they never consider your life? Did they make you something to manipulate to make others like them? Were they hostile, cruel, unthinking, dismissive? Again, widen that vocabulary. I think it's actually a very healing thing to not just use that label, but actually be able to articulate why someone's behaviour is harmful, not just for you but for them as well, so that if they, you know, aren't actually a narcissist, they can change and they can identify, hopefully, or have some self-awareness as to what exactly you were bothered by,

• 33:55Jemma Sbeg?

  rather than just hearing you call them a narcissist and being like, well, that person doesn't know what they're talking about. The more specific, I think, the more power. Let's circle back to that thing I said, that I've kind of just completely glazed over. Can true narcissists change? That is our final question of the day. If you just looked online, the general consensus would be no. And I get why that idea is really popular. If you've been hurt by somebody who repeatedly denies your reality, who has twisted blame back onto you, who has treated your feelings like an inconvenience, the idea that they're incapable of change is, is really comforting. Because it makes the chaos make sense, right?

• 34:41Jemma Sbeg?

  And it makes the outcome feel inevitable, not personal. The sad reality is that the truth is more nuanced. People with narcissistic personality disorder or narcissistic traits, there is evidence they can change, or that they can give the appearance of change, as some people would speculate. It doesn't make it easy. The first thing to understand is that narcissistic behaviours often function like a protective system. And this isn't to say you have to have empathy for this person who has hurt you. You have to understand why they are the way they are. But, you know, these aren't just random bad habits. These are patterns of self-protection, which is why they are so stubborn.

• 35:25Jemma Sbeg?

  Because you're not just asking somebody to stop being arrogant. You are asking them to tolerate emotions that their ego and their self finds unbearable. Things like shame, inadequacy, a sense of worthlessness, vulnerability. So that is why forcing change, or even asking a narcissist to change, does seem so impossible. Because it requires two things. Number one, being insight, that they actually have to see that there is a problem with their behaviour and acknowledge that they have hurt people. That's difficult for anybody to admit, but especially hard when your identity is built around being right

• 36:09Jemma Sbeg?

  and being special and being untouchable. The other thing they need is motivation. You know, many people with more entrenched narcissistic patterns, they don't seek help because they don't actually experience themselves as a problem. So, yes, they may be able to look back and see this pattern of broken relationships and this pattern of people being very angry with them. But they don't have the motivation to change because on another level, they're very successful. They're making a ton of money. They are a leader. They believe they have respect. So this trait is also helping them. Often what therapists will find when they do encounter

• 36:52Jemma Sbeg?

  the rare individual with narcissistic personality disorder in a clinical setting, is that often it's somebody else dragging them to the table. A relationship is going to end. This marriage is going to fall apart. You have done something terrible at work. Your reputation has taken a huge hit. They're in the prison setting, they are in a, you know, they have committed a crime. Um, in other words, suffering and the disordered nature of this has become so undeniable that either through some miracle they have brought themselves in, or a system or a person has pushed them into a therapy setting, that is how they end up there.

• 37:36Jemma Sbeg?

  Let's say this, even if this person is able to change and is able to develop empathy and a stable sense of self and is able to see the issue with their behaviour, um, it's not gonna happen quickly and it may not happen at all. But there is a chance, there is a small chance, and it's kind of this thing, this dilemma where it's like, people who genuinely have narcissistic personality disorder, what are we meant to do with them in society? You know, hope that they get what they want? Hope that like they are skillful enough to not hurt people in their manipulation? No, like if there is this one percent, let's say, of people just operating out there, um, what do we do with them?

• 38:20Jemma Sbeg?

  And people have to believe, there has to be the sense that they can change. There has to be some kind of optimism for the role of therapy. The thing is, and what is always gonna come up in this discussion is, with somebody who truly has these traits, do they change or do they just learn a new way of operating? Do they just learn a new set of behaviours that are equally manipulative? Which is to fake humility and to fake self-deprecation? And to fake empathy as a disguise for true self-awareness? Which is that they are aware they have a problem?

• 39:03Jemma Sbeg?

  Or they are at least aware that people don't enjoy their behaviour, they wanna be liked? So the manipulation or the, I guess their behaviour then tells them that this is the better way to act in this new situation to continue being liked? Which is to basically fake the behaviours that others want to see in them? And you know what? How do we know? How do we ever know that somebody who has been through therapy for narcissistic traits or narcissistic personality disorder has genuinely changed or they are faking it?

• 39:38Jemma Sbeg?

  And the thing is, we don't, like. We don't really, until moments of like vulnerability or until moments of outrage when like somebody is pushed really, really far. I guess that's the point where we can tell. And those situations are often so rare for a narcissist to be in. So as we wrap up this episode, I hope that it has given you more of a psychological insight into the different ways that narcissism, narcissistic traits, narcissistic personality disorder shows up in our society. It is not as straightforward as TikTok or social media or the internet might make it seem. And I think that's really important to acknowledge for people who have

• 40:23Jemma Sbeg?

  genuinely endured really terrible behaviours and really terrible manipulation from people who kind of blur the lines and who don't outright look like narcissists, don't outright have a diagnosis but still have done terrible things. And also for, I also think hopefully it's given you some clarity around why it's important to use a more specific label for people's behaviour, rather than just jumping to the narcissistic conclusion. People with true narcissistic personality disorder are quite rare in society and often actually they are very hard to identify because of how intense their condition is and how great

• 41:07Jemma Sbeg?

  they are at manipulating us. So I think, and I hope, it's just given you something to think about. You know, what is a narcissist? When does somebody deserve that label? Should I be using that label as often as I, as I do or as I want to? And what are kind of the alternatives? Thank you as always for tuning into this episode. Thank you to our researcher Libby Colbert for her help on this episode as well, and for looking through all of those meta-analysis for such interesting data. Make sure as always that you are following us, wherever you are listening, make sure that you are subscribed so that you can get new episodes when they come out on Tuesdays and Fridays. Also that you're following us

• 41:49Jemma Sbeg?

  on Instagram, on Substack, if you want to read versions of episodes like this. If you want them delivered into your inbox, that is the place to go. And until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very, very soon.

• 42:10Jemma Sbeg?

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• 42:48Jemma Sbeg?

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• 43:33Jemma Sbeg?

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