#2428 - Michael P. Masters

Michael P. Masters, PhD, is a professor of biological anthropology at Montana Technological University and the author of several books exploring the hypothesis that alien visitors may be human time travelers from the future. The most recent titles are "The Extratempestrial Model," a work of nonfiction, and the novel "Revelation: The Future Human Past." www.idflyobj.com/books-%26-merchwww.youtube.com/@MichaelPMasterswww.idflyobj.com Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://BetterHelp.com/JRE This episode is brought to you by Monster Ultra. Zero Sugar, Flavor Unleashed. Visit https://monsterenergy.com to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:13Joe Rogan?

  Mmm.

• 0:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  Disclosure Day, very interesting.

• 0:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm excited for that.

• 0:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he was always like way ahead of the curve when it comes to the whole UAP, UFO stuff, you know, with Close Encounters of the Third Kind, he had that French scientist that was essentially modeled after Jacques Vallée.

• 0:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 0:36Joe Rogan?

  He's always been, I would love to talk to him, I wonder how much he knows.

• 0:40Speaker 03

  Is that an accident?

• 0:41Joe Rogan?

  It's not.

• 0:42Speaker 03

  Was he fed some information? Was he a part of disclosure the whole time? That's what I've always wondered.

• 0:48Joe Rogan?

  I mean, what does that mean, right? Because there hasn't really been disclosure.

• 0:51Speaker 03

  No, but there has to be a slow process too, right?

• 0:54Joe Rogan?

  You think so?

• 0:55Speaker 03

  I don't think, I mean, the whole idea is that they're just sort of normalizing it, right?

• 1:01Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02Speaker 03

  Neuro-linguistic programming, they call it, where you're slowly getting people accustomed to these ideas, like the aspects of Close Encounters, for instance, where you have the radiation burns on the guy's face, you have a time travel component, where these WWII soldiers get out of the craft.

• 1:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:18Speaker 03

  With the little beans and the bigger bean, and, I mean, just seeding, seeding our culture with those little bits of information that might help later on down the road.

• 1:26Joe Rogan?

  That was like in the 70s, wasn't it? Like, when was Close Encounters?

• 1:29Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, I think it was.

• 1:31Joe Rogan?

  Was it the 70s?

• 1:32Speaker 03

  Late 70s, early 80s, maybe.

• 1:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34Speaker 03

  Either way, I mean, like, a lot of stuff he's done, like, I re-watched the, what was it, Jeff Bridges' Starman, I think? There's a lot of elements of disclosure in that, too, like, I think there's just, I don't know, I mean, obviously, we don't know who's pulling the strings, we don't know what's going on, we don't know who's in charge, but it does make sense that if there is this thing that they know about, that we're supposed to know about, leak it out, do it slowly, get it in our culture, get it in our media in different ways.

• 2:05Joe Rogan?

  You know the house put-off story, right, with George Bush? Do you know the story where they were talking about, okay. Hal talked about it on my podcast, but he also talked about it in the Age of Disclosure documentary, where they brought in him and a bunch of different prominent thinkers.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I watched that episode and I watched the doco.

• 2:23Joe Rogan?

  So to people that don't know, I'll just explain it. So they brought in him and a bunch of other prominent thinkers and they had, they sat them down, said essentially, we have recovered crashed UFOs. We have biological remains of these creatures. Uh, we are considering releasing it to the public and we want to make an assessment of what are the pros and what are the cons? So we want to assign a numerical value that, you know, you're estimating what kind of an impact it would be on government, finances, religion, et cetera.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  About whether they should do it, basically.

• 2:58Joe Rogan?

  Right, whether or not they should release this information. And all of the people that were brought in came to the agreement that there was more con than there were pro. And that formed their decision to not release it.

• 3:10Speaker 03

  And didn't he say at first, like, he was pro-disclosure? He was like, of course, we should do this. And then after the conversation, he switched teams and...

• 3:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't know about that, maybe, perhaps.

• 3:19Speaker 03

  I mean, he said that he, he went into it thinking, well, yeah, obviously we should do this. And then sort of was convinced otherwise after the conversation unfolded.

• 3:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, how could you be convinced? Like, whose decision should it be? If some people know, everyone should know.

• 3:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:34Joe Rogan?

  It's a humanity decision. It's, I don't think it should be in anybody's hand, in anybody's hands.

• 3:39Speaker 03

  No.

• 3:40Joe Rogan?

  To decide whether or not this information gets distributed.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  And the implications too, if they have zero-point energy. Like, how would that solve the problems that we face today? There's so many ramifications of it that, yeah. Whose decision is it and why has it been kept from us? I don't, I don't buy that whole, like, Orson Welles 1938, everybody freak out bullshit. I don't, I don't think that's the case, at least not anymore. There's gotta be something more to it than that.

• 4:06Joe Rogan?

  It would certainly have, I don't know if they factor this in, but a uniting element. Like, you remember the Reagan speech we gave in front of the United Nations? Where he said, imagine how united we would be, we'd forget our differences if we were faced with an alien threat from another world. I mean, just knowing that we are all unit, I mean, we, how old are you?

• 4:27Speaker 03

  Uh, forty-seven.

• 4:28Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so you remember September eleventh.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:30Joe Rogan?

  One of, one of the things that happened after September eleventh was there was, it was a horrible tragedy, but there was a beautiful result temporarily, where everybody was really united, like really united. Like, there was American flags in everybody's car in Los Angeles. You know, like, the most ridiculous progressive, sort of, kind of, you know, kind of fucked up place. But everybody became patriotic. And in New York, everyone was friendly. I mean, people were smiling and saying hi to each other on the streets. We had all decided that we were together and that we were faced with a real threat and that we had to be united. And.

• 5:06Speaker 03

  I remember it well, yeah. You're right, and not to get too weird too fast here, but if there are aspects of sort of an all-encompassing consciousness that unites us, associated with UFO phenomenon too, if we recognize that we are just fingerprints on the same hand, we're all iterations of the same overarching consciousness, if seemingly there is a part of that in the UFO phenomenon.

• 5:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  So, how would that unite us as well? Even beyond the threat from outside, like, if we did start to understand that we're all part of the same sort of cosmic community, uh, sounds kind of weird to say that.

• 5:44Joe Rogan?

  It does sound weird, but have you seen the Apple show Pluribus?

• 5:48Speaker 03

  No, it comes up a lot, it's worth watching.

• 5:50Joe Rogan?

  It's really good.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:51Joe Rogan?

  It's really good, it's very, very original, very unique. But that is essentially what happens, and it has a negative aspect to it. There's a virus, I don't want to give away too much of it for people that want to watch the show, because it's a really good show, but there's a virus that they get a signal from another world, and they figure out what this signal is, and through this lab work, they reveal that this signal is some sort of the encoding of a specific virus. They work on this specific virus, it spreads, and the entire planet becomes one consciousness. Except for a small number of people.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 6:33Joe Rogan?

  It's a weird show, it's a really good show. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna explain any more of it like that without any spoiler alerts, but it's fucking great, but.

• 6:41Joe Rogan?

  It's strange. It's like, wouldn't that be better? There's no crime, there's no this, there's no that. But then it reveals all the problems that come along with that.

• 6:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm gonna have to watch that as a counterpoint if anything else. Cause it, it makes sense to me that if everyone's kind of united as one.

• 6:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:56Speaker 03

  Uh, super organism of sorts, but.

• 7:00Joe Rogan?

  But you lose all individuality.

• 7:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:02Joe Rogan?

  You lose all the fun parts about being an imperfect person.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 7:05Joe Rogan?

  Cause we are an imperfect species, but that's also what makes great art. That's what makes great music. It's what makes great fun.

• 7:12Speaker 03

  Most creative people have the most trauma in their past.

• 7:15Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:16Speaker 03

  From what I've seen.

• 7:17Joe Rogan?

  And if you have zero trauma, you probably have sucky art.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  It's just stick figures and shit.

• 7:24Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I wonder why would be, if they would even have a need for it.

• 7:28Speaker 03

  No, cause it's an expression. It's getting your angry out.

• 7:31Joe Rogan?

  Right. Or your angst, or your anxiety, or depression, whatever it is. You're getting something out.

• 7:37Speaker 03

  I was telling my son that the other day. Obviously his name is. You know, it's hard being in these bodies, especially going through puberty. You know, you're just like, what is this thing I'm carrying? This little meat suit, you know? And, and I was like, man, I, I was the same way, still am the same way. And I, I picked up instruments. I started painting. I'd learned to play every sport I could physically play. Like, there's ways to get that out, you know? But it seems like a lot of that does come from just the anxiety and the angst.

• 8:04Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 8:04Speaker 03

  And, and you know, you're growing into yourself. You're starting to get the feels. You know, you look at women differently and it's like, what do I do with this?

• 8:12Joe Rogan?

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• 8:53Joe Rogan?

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• 9:38Joe Rogan?

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• 10:23Joe Rogan?

  use the offer code ROGEN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Well, it rechanges, it rewires the entire way you view the world. And meanwhile, your body is physically changing and growing. You're like, what am I gonna look like eventually? This is weird.

• 10:40Speaker 03

  It's so weird. You know, there's actually this, on a small island in the Pacific, they have this weird characteristic where they start out as females. Everybody does. We all start out as females in utero. And then maleness is imposed on the developing fetus. But they don't until puberty because they're not sensitive to dihydrotestosterone, the precursor to testosterone. So they grow up their entire life as girls. And then at puberty, they turn into a boy.

• 11:08Joe Rogan?

  So they get raised as girls?

• 11:09Speaker 03

  They are girls. They're physically.

• 11:11Joe Rogan?

  But they have penises?

• 11:12Speaker 03

  Not yet. Nope.

• 11:13Joe Rogan?

  What? This is a planet? I mean, this is.

• 11:16Speaker 03

  This is an island. It's an island in the South Pacific. It's called pseudohermaphroditism.

• 11:20Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 11:21Speaker 03

  I know, I learned about this in grad school.

• 11:22Joe Rogan?

  So what do they look like?

• 11:24Speaker 03

  They look like girls.

• 11:25Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 11:26Speaker 03

  Exactly like girls. They are girls. And then the ovaries descend as testicles and the clitoris grows out into a penis.

• 11:32Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 11:33Speaker 03

  So you think puberty's hard enough already, these people turn into the opposite sex at age like 12 or 13. It's wild, man.

• 11:39Joe Rogan?

  So is this a bizarre genetic anomaly? Is there something to do with their environment?

• 11:44Speaker 03

  A lot of times on islands, you get like really strange characteristics of people because of the isolation. And those characteristics get selected just through genetic drift alone, because it's a small population. So just probably one person had this really weird trait where they're insensitive to dihydrotestosterone. And then it spread throughout more of the population.

• 12:03Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 12:03Speaker 03

  It doesn't do anything. It's not something natural selection would select against. It's just weird as shit.

• 12:08Joe Rogan?

  What is the name of this island?

• 12:10Speaker 03

  I don't remember the name of the island, but the condition's called, um.

• 12:13Joe Rogan?

  Find it?

• 12:14Speaker 00

  I think it's Mallow Island in Vanadu or something.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:17Joe Rogan?

  How many people are on that island?

• 12:18Speaker 00

  It says there's a population in 1979 of 2,300 people.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, and think historically.

• 12:24Speaker 00

  There's two different kinds of people there or something. It says two.

• 12:26Joe Rogan?

  Two different kinds of people?

• 12:28Speaker 00

  Two cultural groups.

• 12:29Speaker 03

  Isn't that wild though, man? I remember hearing about that in grad school at Ohio State and I was just like, I'm sorry, what?

• 12:35Joe Rogan?

  It's so strange.

• 12:36Speaker 03

  What did you just say?

• 12:37Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure you've seen those people, the ostrich feet people in Africa.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Uh-uh.

• 12:41Joe Rogan?

  It's a very strange genetic anomaly where they don't grow toes. They essentially have two very wide appendages.

• 12:49Speaker 03

  Weird.

• 12:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they look, it looks like a, like a, like a weird bird foot.

• 12:54Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 12:54Joe Rogan?

  It's very strange, but a bunch of people in this particular tribe share this trait.

• 13:00Speaker 03

  Is there any advantage or it's just, it's like this where it just kinda happened and?

• 13:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean. I don't know what advantage there would be. Maybe it's it's.

• 13:09Speaker 03

  Maybe it's really sexy to them.

• 13:12Joe Rogan?

  Maybe you could move better with it. I don't know. It's it's that's what they look like.

• 13:16Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 13:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:17Speaker 03

  I don't know how I haven't seen that. That's wild.

• 13:19Joe Rogan?

  I know. Isn't that crazy?

• 13:20Speaker 03

  I mean, it is kinda sexy.

• 13:21Joe Rogan?

  Um, if that's what you're into, dog. I wonder how long that's been going on for. Vedoma.

• 13:28Speaker 03

  See, that seems like more of like a defect that just worked toward fixity in the population. Maybe not.

• 13:36Joe Rogan?

  But it just makes you wonder, like, why don't we? It's in Zimbabwe, apparently. Why don't we all have that? You know, like, what is what is the reason why we have all these toes that it's called electrodactyl?

• 13:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:50Joe Rogan?

  Dak- electrodactily.

• 13:53Speaker 03

  I mean, historically, prehistorically, evolutionarily, I should say, if you did have something like that and you were hunter gatherer, you're kinda boned. You know, you're not gonna be able to run after gazelles.

• 14:03Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. Maybe you can. It's like they're feet are well adapted to the Zimbabwe's, oh, Zambezi, not Zimbabwe. Zambezi Valley's rough terrain allowing them to move quickly and efficiently through the landscape.

• 14:17Speaker 03

  All right, I take it back.

• 14:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, it kinda makes sense, right? Because what what it's saying is that their their bones are fused. If you scroll up, it'll say, "Condition affecting ostrich-footed tribe. Genetic mutation passed down through generations causes the bones in the feet to fuse, resulting in a claw-like structure with two large toes." Toes are very vulnerable. I don't know if you ever broke a toe, but it's.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  I broke one an hour before I got on the plane to come here.

• 14:40Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 14:40Speaker 03

  If you could see my left foot.

• 14:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's hilarious.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  That's ridiculous. Like, the whole thing is just purple.

• 14:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they're so small. Like, my pinky toe, I was messing around with my pinky toe the other day, cuz I I have to trim my toenails, right? And the pinky toe is is like barely a nail. It's so tiny. And I'm like, God, this little thing is so vulnerable. And it has to support my entire body weight or part of my entire body weight.

• 15:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're so dumb.

• 15:05Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  You can see that.

• 15:06Joe Rogan?

  Your foot's jacked.

• 15:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, dude. That was like right before I was coming down. I'm like, you gotta be kidding me.

• 15:11Joe Rogan?

  That sucks. Yeah. Well, I've broken a bunch of toes. It's, it's very, very annoying.

• 15:16Speaker 03

  It's so annoying.

• 15:17Joe Rogan?

  And you would imagine if you had two giant fucking elbow bones down there instead of these bitchy ass little toesies.

• 15:24Speaker 03

  I know. Maybe that's why they did it. Maybe that's what they got going on.

• 15:27Joe Rogan?

  Kind of makes sense that that would be an adaptation.

• 15:29Speaker 03

  Invincible feet.

• 15:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, you know, we're, we're so vulnerable. We're, and that's one of the weirder things like, so first we should get into what you do. Uh, cause you have, uh, you have a very interesting theory. Tell everybody what your background is first of all.

• 15:45Speaker 03

  Yeah. All right. That does seem like a good place to start. Um, my background is in anthropology and biological anthropology. Um, my research mostly focuses on evolutionary anatomy, biomedicine. I've done some archaeology in various places around the world and Montana. But the reason I'm here, I assume, cause according to my friend Matt, we were, uh, we were butchering a mule deer, I think I shot. And I was like, yeah, I gotta go to this conference. And I was like, do you want to know what it's about? He's like, nobody gives a shit about what you do other than UFOs, man. And I was like, damn it, he's right. Like I did actually used to do a lot of what I thought was cool stuff, but no, the, the main thing is that I've, I've become known for

• 16:30Speaker 03

  advocating for this idea that UFOs, uh, and the aliens are actually a time traveling future human descendants.

• 16:39Speaker 03

  I wouldn't even say as opposed to extraterrestrials, cause I do think that's a component too. I oftentimes get pigeonholed. People are like, oh, you just think they're all time travelers. I don't. I actually say this all the time, but it doesn't matter. Uh, I do think there's a lot going on, but, but my background and, and the reason I approach this question this way is because there's a lot of characteristics of these aliens that look so hominid. They look just like us. And specifically what we'd expect to see in our hominid future, if the same evolutionary trends continue into the future. So I kind of just tie those things together and even the, the saucer shaped crafts seemingly are time machines themselves. So that's kind of the Cliff Notes version.

• 17:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's a theory that a lot of people have independently sort of come to, right?

• 17:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, especially recently.

• 17:25Joe Rogan?

  And the, the concept of, well, just if you just think about ancient man, I was watching this documentary on Neanderthals last night about this one intact Neanderthal skeleton that they found that was, it had sort of been, he had died in a cave and you know, the stalagmites, stalactites or mites, how do you say it?

• 17:49Speaker 03

  Tites are up, mites are down.

• 17:51Joe Rogan?

  So, he was essentially mineralized. There was stuff all over the body and it took a long time for them to break this body.

• 17:57Speaker 03

  I think I saw that. Was that on Netflix?

• 17:59Joe Rogan?

  No, I was watching it on YouTube, maybe originally it was on Netflix, but it was just documenting how strange this, this body was that they had found, but it was immensely strong, like much stronger than us. One of the interesting things was that their visual cortex, the, the, the part of the brain that would process imagery was larger than ours, 10 to 20% larger.

• 18:23Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 18:24Joe Rogan?

  And that, so these things probably had better eyesight than us, perhaps even were able to see at night. And that this was a bigger, stronger version of a human being, like much more durable than what we are, modern 2025 Homo sapiens.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 18:38Joe Rogan?

  If you just look, yeah, that's it. So that's one of them.

• 18:42Speaker 03

  Neither human nor Neanderthal.

• 18:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 18:46Speaker 03

  This is a published.

• 18:47Joe Rogan?

  Is this the, this might not be the same one, this is maybe a different one. That's a weird one because what's that fucking thing on its head?

• 18:54Speaker 03

  That's what it says, it says stalactite growing out of it or something.

• 18:56Joe Rogan?

  Wow, in a weird form. Weird.

• 18:59Speaker 03

  It's like a unicorn.

• 19:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like a crest.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  They do, they do have a sagittal ridge.

• 19:05Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 19:06Speaker 03

  Homo, Homo erectus had one. There's an offshoot in our hominid lineage called the Paranthropus or robust Australopithecines and they had a full-on like gorilla style.

• 19:17Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 19:17Speaker 03

  Sagittal ridge. Yeah, because they were vegetarians, so they just chewed all day.

• 19:20Joe Rogan?

  Right, so they had massive muscles to chew.

• 19:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, their whole face is huge.

• 19:24Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 19:25Speaker 03

  Neanderthals are kinda, I mean, they were just big. It's just a robusticity thing, but there is evidence from Shannadark Cave in Iraq where they were using their teeth as tools. We think they were like tanning hides, they were holding the hide in their mouth and then like scraping all the nasty bits off.

• 19:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 19:42Speaker 03

  And you can see that in the tooth wear. So, yeah, they were. They were pretty badass. They were the first, I don't know, I think this is cool, but a lot of people think I'm a nerd too. Um, they were the first to, to use the flake. Like for 2.8 million years, we just hit a piece of rock and like, oh, this is a cool tool. But then they figured out, uh, that if you hit the rock in just the right way, the piece that falls off makes an even better tool. So it goes like 2.5, yeah, exactly.

• 20:09Joe Rogan?

  You make an arrowhead.

• 20:10Speaker 03

  And from that point on, like, I, I got to work at a, a place called Chepinot Jean-Zac in southern France. For a summer and it was a Neanderthal site. And we found these, actually it's pretty funny because when we first got there, these, these tools called MTA hand axes, Musterian, it was Shulian tradition hand axes. And there were only eight found in all of Europe. And they said, if you guys find one of these, we'll buy you all the beer and all the cognac you can drink. So we're in the cognac region of France. And we found one like the fourth or fifth day. We went on to find seven more over the course of that week. We doubled the number of these things in existence.

• 20:46Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 20:46Speaker 03

  In all of Europe and they were not lying. They bought us so many damn beers. Like archaeologists like to drink, you know, that's, we, we dig and it's boring as hell. You know, it's not Indiana Jones. We're not running around banging hot chicks and flying on planes. We're like, we got a spoon and we're doing this for eight hours. So. Uh, yeah, I actually found the last one on the last day and it was by far the worst one. Like I had to argue that this is even, it should even count as one of these. But yeah, no, it was, it was a cool site. Um, so yeah, they were, they were, they were doing well, but we were doing better. We came in and replaced them.

• 21:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, something happened where we replaced them.

• 21:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:23Joe Rogan?

  This is an ad for better help. The holidays come with a lot of traditions, gathering with family, cooking those once a year recipes and leaning into the little rituals that bring everyone together. That's something I always look forward to. But there's another tradition I think we should all start doing during the holidays and that's taking some time for ourselves. This season you do so many things for the other people in your life. You plan get togethers around everyone's schedule. You spend hours picking out the right gifts and cooking the right food. But you also deserve just as much attention. Otherwise, you'll burn yourself out. So do yourself a favor and take some me time. Go on a hunting trip, have a quiet night with a book, maybe even schedule a session with a therapist.

• 22:07Joe Rogan?

  Therapy is an extremely effective way to make sure you're focusing on what you need. And BetterHelp can easily set you up. They have access to a wide network of fully qualified therapists and they do a lot of the work for you. Even if that first match isn't a good fit, you can easily switch to another therapist. This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That's better H E L P dot com slash J R E. The point is, as time goes on, humans today are probably the most feeble version of humans that have ever existed. Oh, for sure, yeah.

• 22:48Joe Rogan?

  And we're, we're the most feeble versions of people that have existed within the last century, right? Now, like if you go back to humans from the 1920s versus humans from the 2020s, people have way less testosterone now, way higher instances of miscarriages, way lower sperm count. You know, there's a lot of factors that are at play right now that are changing what a human is. And if you extrapolate, if you look at the future, you would naturally say, well, we're probably going to be very thin. It seems like there's at least some sort of a push to eliminate gender. Like gender seems like it's on the table, whether or not it's even necessary. There's all sorts of new technological innovations that are leading to

• 23:34Joe Rogan?

  the possibility, at least sometime in the future, of an artificial womb.

• 23:40Joe Rogan?

  There's genetic engineering with CRISPR and a lot of other different technologies that are being explored that we might be able to engineer human beings and then even create a complete individual human being without a mother, without a father. So if you thought about what that looks like in the future, like one of our problems on this planet is we all have different ideas. Theologies, different religions, come from different parts of the world. We look different. And human beings as tribal primates have a tendency to other. We other different tribes. Those are not us. We are us. Those are the enemy.

• 24:17Speaker 03

  You rally around it.

• 24:19Joe Rogan?

  But if everybody's exactly the same and we share one mind, you know, then a lot of our problems go away. If we no longer have to compete for resources, we no longer have the desire to procreate and to acquire land and to be, you know, to have a territory. We we eliminate a lot of our issues and that's what these things look like. When you look at the archetypal, these iconic sort of shapes that have been on cave walls all the way up to Close Encounters of the Third Kind. One thing they share is that they have no muscle. They have large heads. They have big eyes.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  And they're childlike. They're very pedomorphic, as we say. Yeah, you just tied together like a lot of really important points related to this theory. Aspects of why they're always interested in our gametes. Why they come back and put that little machine on a man to collect semen, why they're constantly taking eggs from females and and planting fetuses, pulling them back out later. Like, they're clearly focused on reproduction, gamete extraction. And one of the things that might be fueling that in the future, if these are future humans, let's just assume for a second hypothetically, is that they might be having problems directly resulting from

• 25:39Speaker 03

  these trends toward self-domestication, these trends toward feminization, these trends toward reduced sperm counts, which is 60% across most populations of the world, the industrialized world, 50% across the entire world. Yeah, problems with reproduction and vitro fertilization. Exogenesis chambers might help solve some of those problems, growing the fetus outside of the body. So, so, yeah, and like you said, you know, what do they look like? They look like kind of a A hybrid between males and females to some extent, but there's still an essence of gender. Like if you talk to Whitley Strieber, you know, he's with this being, he, he says in communion that I had a sense that she was a woman.

• 26:22Speaker 03

  I don't know why, but I kind of sensed that. So it's almost like the, the essence of the individual, the soul of the individual still retains that sort of gender identity, even though our bodies are becoming more childlike, more gender indiscriminate. Uh, I don't know, but yeah, yet another one of those ways in which we might sort of grow together as a species.

• 26:43Joe Rogan?

  Now, when you say they are extracting sperm, like how many of these stories do you take seriously? There's a lot of these stories.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  It's a great question, yeah.

• 26:56Joe Rogan?

  You know, this unfortunately for any sort of spectacular public thing that's in the zeitgeist, like Alien Abduction, whether it's Whitley Strieber from Communion or the John Mack books, uh, the guy from Harvard that wrote, um, what was it? Abduction?

• 27:14Speaker 03

  Passport to the Cosmos and Abduction, yeah. Two great books.

• 27:17Joe Rogan?

  Great books, but these are all books about encounters, close encounters of the third kind with some sort of a being from another place. Whatever it is, it's just not a human being and it seems to be technologically at least superior to us. It seems to be one thing they all seem to share as they seem to be able to communicate telekinetically or telepathically.

• 27:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, they, they aren't human, but they're very human too. So for instance, like that, that's one of the main reasons I started exploring this. I was actually kind of put into this when I was eight or nine years old, sort of activated in a way and put on this path by a weird thing that happened to me.

• 27:58Joe Rogan?

  What happened to you?

• 27:59Speaker 03

  Well, So I talk about it in my first two books, Identified Flying Objects and the Extratemporal Model, where I learned about a close encounter that my dad had. He was a veterinarian in northeast Ohio where I grew up. And he was out one night on a call with another guy. So there's two people. As far as Jalen Hynek's reliability scale, I have more reliability because there's multiple witnesses. It's also strange on his scale because they crested the hill. There's a bright light. This is an Amish country. There's no lights in Amish country. And all of a sudden, this bright light darts toward them, hovers just above their truck, darts back to where it was, and straight up into space, like at incredible speed. So this

• 28:41Speaker 03

  happened before I was born, but I overheard him telling a story to some friends one night. He got Whitley Strieber's book Communion, as most people did in the 1980s, and as they should, because it's a great book. And I walked into the living room. The book is sitting on a shelf facing out. And I remember, like it was yesterday, I sort of stopped, and there was like this light, like a white light. And then I saw this image in my mind of like, an early hominin chimpanzee-like creature, a modern human, and then that archetypal gray alien from the cover. With this information, what if they're related? What if they are us from the future? And obviously, I mean, that's why I became a biological anthropologist. People are always like, so- So you saw this?

• 29:24Speaker 03

  Yeah. It was like a flash, like a light. And, you know, it's weird looking back on it, because I know a lot more about these experiences. I've talked to people that have had these types of experiences. What was the setting? It was our living room. So it was like the, you come in the front door, and just to the left, there's this living room, built-in bookshelf, Whitley's books right there. I just turned the corner, saw it, and then like, just kind of, it just came. Like, I didn't know shit about evolutionary biology. I didn't know about UFOs- When you say you saw it, you saw it how? In my mind. Just this white light- Just an image? And there was that image of the three faces. And then the question, could they be us from the future? And a lot of people are like, how'd you get into UFOs? Like, you're a biological anthropologist. It's the opposite. I got into biological anthropology

• 30:09Speaker 03

  to research this question of whether they could be us from the future.

• 30:15Joe Rogan?

  So, so this, you felt like at that moment, it wasn't just like a weird thought or a dream? It felt like a message? Like, what did it feel like?

• 30:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. It was some, it was a tasking. You know, I think Rupert Sheldrake said it, that, that people don't have ideas, ideas have people. I think that was like the, hey, go do this thing. And I did. That's why we're here now, talking about it.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  And obviously, you know, you gotta be careful about like, selection bias and confirmation bias. Like, I didn't go into this, I didn't go into grad school, I also didn't tell anybody in grad school I was there, because they would have kicked me out. But I went into it with an open mind, but I was there to study these things because of that event when I was eight years old.

• 31:03Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Yeah, it's, it is a problem, the confirmation bias. It is a problem with wanting it to be real, and I struggle with that, because I desperately want it to be real. And so every time I talk to someone, you know, I've talked to a bunch of people that are, you know, air quote whistleblowers, and some of them, I think, for sure, have been sent in here to distribute disinformation.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, no doubt.

• 31:30Joe Rogan?

  For sure, because it's a great place to do it.

• 31:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:32Joe Rogan?

  I'll listen to you, I'll entertain almost anything.

• 31:35Speaker 03

  Which is great, we need that.

• 31:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  You know, but yeah, I mean, obviously, there's people that are gonna take advantage of it.

• 31:40Joe Rogan?

  But I think it's also important for me to say, I'm not convinced. I, you know, I don't know how much of this is horseshit, but it's not zero.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  No, and that was your question, is how, how do I differentiate among these different cases?

• 31:55Speaker 03

  I do draw from Heineck's, in his book, The UFO Experience, he lists out how we all should approach this, based on the reliability scale and the strangeness scale. Jacques Vallée also drew from that, helped him develop it, as part of the Invisible College and all of his work. But regardless of like, my own personal discernment, because my second book, The Extratemporal Model, is about thirty case studies, fifteen main case studies, but then I pull in other ones. And it explores the different theories, obviously, the main one being this extratemporal idea, this future, which, by the way, I saw the word of the day, today was anachronistic. And I was like, man, that would have been a way better word than extratempestrum,

• 32:38Speaker 03

  which everybody struggles with. I could have called them anachronots.

• 32:42Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 32:42Speaker 03

  Doesn't that sound cool?

• 32:43Joe Rogan?

  That does sound cool.

• 32:44Speaker 03

  Anachronots.

• 32:45Joe Rogan?

  Ooh, that sounds really cool.

• 32:46Speaker 03

  I know. What the hell was I thinking, man?

• 32:47Joe Rogan?

  Well.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  Anyway.

• 32:48Joe Rogan?

  You live, you learn.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  But, so, one of the most commonly reported things across all cases, regardless of whether you think it's bullshit, or you think this definitely happened, is they really want our sperm. They really need or want our reproductive material, our gametes. And it's funny, because when I wrote my first book in 20, I started in 2012, published it in 2019, right at the end, I did an interview, and someone was like, have you heard of Jim Peniston? I'm like, no, which is kind of a failing on my behalf. I'll admit that one. Uh, it turns out, so it was the Rendlesham Forest incident, he touched this craft, he got this binary code, and he, uh, when deciphering the binary code, they legitimately specifically said, "We are you from the future.

• 33:34Speaker 03

  We're having problems with reproduction, he underwent hypnotic regression, we're having problems with reproduction, and we need this genetic material to help ourselves." You know, a lot of people are like, well, why are they coming back and doing stuff to us? I think they're coming back and getting stuff from us because of problems they're having, largely related to what you were talking about earlier with, um, the reduced sperm counts, the problem with female infertility. What if we do try to create the perfect human specimen? Or we try to cure these genetic diseases through genetic manipulation, CRISPR, and we screw something up? We might have to come back. But we can't go to another planet, there aren't people on these planets, we can't go and sample gametes from these other places, we might have to go into our past to get

• 34:16Speaker 03

  those wild-type, un, uh, unmanipulated gametes in order to fix these problems.

• 34:22Joe Rogan?

  God, that's, that's a crazy level of technological sophistication, the ability to venture back in time and somehow or another not fuck up the timeline that's leading to, I mean, this is the problem that's always been theorized about time travel. Anything that you do, if you went back in time, any interactions, you would completely change how the future would play out.

• 34:47Speaker 03

  In the many worlds interpretation, yeah. So that idea is unfortunately very pervasive and mostly because of Back to the Future, which I think ruined the brains of most people. Mine too. Certainly in my, my, my generation. But what most visit and physicists don't agree on many things. But most agree that we live in what's called a block universe. Landscape time, block time, where if you imagine all moments from the very beginning of the big bang to the end of the universe, where all matter disappears into like a black hole or contracts or whatever it does, all moments are already there. They exist as this massive four dimensional block of all moments, all world lines, everything.

• 35:32Speaker 03

  So you go back into the past as you perceive it, you can do whatever you want. You can walk around, step on butterflies, you know, slap people on the face, kick over, you know, dinosaurs or whatever. I don't think we can go back that far, but you could do anything you want and it doesn't change anything because you're going back in the block universe and doing those things you were always already going to do. And when you get home, everything's the same because that was already their past. To everybody that stayed behind, that was already their past. It was only the future for you to go back and do those things that you were already going to do. And then you just went and did them, get home, everything's the same because you were always going to do those things in the first place. That's bizarre.

• 36:12Joe Rogan?

  That's hard to swallow.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  If that is the actual model of the universe, and again, I can only work in writing these books, I can only work from what we know now. Clearly there's a lot of things we don't know. I'm not claiming to know anything beyond what we can know right now. But physicists, despite not knowing what time is, they know it's an emergent phenomenon. There's something more fundamental that time comes from, but they do agree on this block universe model. And in that case, there is no paradox.

• 36:38Joe Rogan?

  How do they all agree on that? Like, wouldn't you have to test that and come up with some sort of a hypothesis and then try to prove it or disprove it?

• 36:46Speaker 03

  You're right. I shouldn't say they all agree because there is the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics where if you went back in that situation, it would be change. You would be changing the timeline. Would it be changing your timeline or would it be changing a different timeline is the question? And how would you know? There's more paradoxes with changing things than not changing things.

• 37:07Joe Rogan?

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• 38:12Joe Rogan?

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• 38:57Joe Rogan?

  And when you order, let them know we sent you in the survey. It helps to support the show. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time. I think that they can go back to the dinosaur age.

• 39:10Speaker 03

  Partly because, three different reasons. One, I think they need tremendously high speed in order to be able to go back into the past. So basically, again, working from all I can work from in this time with the limited, primitive, primate knowledge that I have in the year 2012 to 2025. I basically just started with Einstein's theory of relativity, which he published in 1905 on the electrodynamics of moving bodies. And then in 1915, he published his paper on general relativity. From that point on, almost instantly, there were solutions to his field equations that

• 39:50Speaker 03

  showed with the right parameters of a massively, highly energetic rotating ring or sphere or disk, that you could create closed time light curves, that you could actually orient light cones back toward the past, so you can physically go into the past. We saw this with Lenz and Thuring in like 1917 and 18. Kurt Godell. Godell universe was not long after, and I think the 20s maybe. And then importantly, in 1970s, you had Frank Tipler, who showed mathematically that you can shrink that down to a disk. He actually called it a disk. And this is one of the reasons I think that these are time machines is because it has all of the parameters described by Frank Tipler.

• 40:32Speaker 03

  He wasn't talking about UFOs, but they seemingly have the ability to jump in and out of time, they appear and disappear. And I'm talking too much, so I'll wrap this up in a second, but... You're definitely not talking too much. Well, I mean, we're here to talk, but I have an internal trigger where I'm like, "Shut up, masters, you're talking too much." No, no, no, don't listen to that trigger, let it roll. So anyway, you know, if you look at the history of how we understand backward time travel, what I think they're doing is that I think they're combining general relativity and special relativity. So I think they're orienting the light cones toward the past by rotating these things really, really fast. You hear that all the time. They power up, they're spinning, or at least there's some sort of flywheel on the outside that's spinning.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  I think that's what's allowing them to move toward the past, and then they take off. So it's that high speed that I think allows them to go further into the past. So they're using, you're aware of the twins paradox, I'm sure. Time dilation, where you have two twins, they're the same age. And then one goes into a spaceship, they move at tremendously high speed. They come back and they're much younger than their twin because time moved faster back on Earth. I think they're using that high-speed motion while light cones are oriented toward the past in order to travel deeper into the past through that process of time dilation. There are limits to how fast we can go. Einstein was very adamant about this because there's an increase in inertial forces

• 41:58Speaker 03

  the faster you go relative to the speed of light. That's why he thought we could never go. That's why he thought that anything with mass could never go faster than the speed of light. Light can do it because it's a wave or a particle or both. So I think there's a limit to how fast we can go. The other reason is because Jim Peniston, in this hypnotic regression, said that. He's like, "We can only go 40,000 to 60,000 years into the past or we might not get back." You also have, and this is a more speculative one, so take it for what it's worth. You also have the Dan Burish testimony of this J-Rod, this allegedly captured alien, who said, "We're from the future.

• 42:38Speaker 03

  We are you from the future and we're from about 55,000 to 60,000 years in your future." So those three things together are why I don't think we could go back 65 million years to hunt dinosaurs, which actually would be kind of fun.

• 42:52Joe Rogan?

  When you're talking about going the speed of light, you're talking about not traditional propulsion, but some form of propulsion that allows you to go at insane speeds.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, electromagnetic is what it seems to be. And importantly, the electromagnetic force is 10 to the 40 times more powerful than gravity. So not only do I think that's what they use to fly, I think that's what they use to manipulate spacetime. Actually, and Dan Burish is, not Dan Burish, Dan Farah. I think you just had him on too, the age of disclosure.

• 43:24Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 43:24Speaker 03

  There's this really cool thing at the end where Hal Puthoff and I think Eric Davis as well, were talking about this spacetime bubble, right? A really weird thing happened. We can get to that in a second, but I don't want to jump around too much because I'll lose people and myself probably. But this spacetime bubble that they form around the craft, I think, is also indicative of the fact that they're manipulating spacetime, that they're traveling in and out of time. They use it to hide in plain sight. They manipulate the rate at which they move relative to us in their frame of reference, and they're moving fast all around us, and they've slowed time down outside of that bubble. So everything is really, really slow to them, and they can

• 44:06Speaker 03

  easily evade our bullets and our missiles. But we don't see them because we don't have that frame rate of perception. And if you slow videos down, I'm sure you've seen these all the time, where there's like a, and then you slow it down and you can see this saucer-shaped craft moving slowly across the sky once you slow down the frame rate. But a really funny thing happened because I've never actually talked about this with anyone before. I owe a lot of the fact that anybody even knows who I am to Hal Puthoff. He, when I first started talking about this publicly in 2018, and then I published my book in 2019, Identified Flying Objects, he, I guess, reached out to the head of MUFON

• 44:51Speaker 03

  at the time, who was putting together the 50th anniversary MUFON event, and was like, hey, you should have this Mike Masters guy come talk. And I found that out from the head of MUFON. He's like, hey, just so you know, Hal Puthoff, of all people, recommended I contact you. I had no idea who that is, so I get on the internet, I Google Hal Puthoff. He also put Jesse Michaels, mutual friend, in touch with me after, I think he did an interview with him and Weinstein, I forget his name.

• 45:19Joe Rogan?

  Eric?

• 45:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. So he did an interview with those two. I guess Hal was like, hey, you should reach out to McMasters. And he did, and we talked, and we've done stuff together. But what was cool is that at the end of that Age of Disclosure film, when he's talking about the space-time bubble, I thought back to after my first book came out and I was contacted by someone who claimed to be an ex-intelligence person who explained that exact same thing to me back in 2019, that these things aren't doing 10,000 G maneuvers that would crush anything inside. To them, in their frame of reference, what they feel is completely different than what we see. Because in that space-time bubble,

• 46:01Speaker 03

  they can be moving at 50,000 miles an hour to a right-hand turn and it would splatter anything inside because of the G forces. That's what we see on the outside. But in that space-time bubble, they probably feel one, two Gs at the most. So I started thinking, man, was that Hal? Did Hal reach out to me with like a different email address and say, "Hey, just so you know, this is how these things are happening. This is how they're able to do it." And I was a dumbass, I still am a dumbass. But I was an extra-big dumbass back then. And I was like, "Oh, cool. Thanks, man." You know, like a story went viral about my books and Fox News picked it up and space.com. And so I was going through a bunch of emails. They recognized I wasn't getting what they were saying.

• 46:46Speaker 03

  I was not picking up what they were putting down. And they were like, "No, this is important." Said it again, and then it clicked. I was like, "Oh, yeah, that makes perfect sense." They're manipulating the rate at which time passes in this bubble around the craft, and we see something completely different.

• 47:02Joe Rogan?

  So when we're seeing this, we are imagining what we can do. And we're sort of saying, "Well, what would be an advanced version of what we can do?" And what this technology is, is something that's levels of magnitude beyond even our theoretical...

• 47:20Joe Rogan?

  Like any sort of idea that we have currently about, you know, potential future timelines of technology. Yeah. There's no one talking about gravity bubbles that allow you to instantaneously traverse immense gaps in the universe. Well, they might be talking about buying closed doors at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. Right. And have been for 70 years. Yeah, that's a problem. That's the real problem with disclosure. Like, how much progress could we have made if they had opened up all this stuff? And you've got to imagine if you were an intelligent life form from another planet. You know, Diana Pasulka talked about, her and Gary Nolan talked about how they refer to some of these things as donations.

• 48:05Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm. They don't think of them as crashed vehicles because some of them are not crashed. They're completely intact. I think David Grush said that, too, didn't he? Yeah, I believe he did. Yeah. And even, you know, Lazar, when he was talking about it, you know, he- Yeah, the sports model. Wasn't that fully intact, too? Fully intact, yeah. Fully intact and operational, and apparently they flew it around. No kidding? Yeah. That'd be fun. Well, that was one of the reasons, you know, the whole story of how he got caught? It's a really crazy story. So, he used to work at Los Alamos. He was a propulsion expert. Guy put a jet engine on the back of a Honda. He was a real freak. Yeah. You know, he made a hydrogen Corvette in, like, the 1990s. He was a nutty dude. Clearly an engineer. Yes. That part checks out.

• 48:47Joe Rogan?

  So, he gets this job on Area S4 and goes there, and it's all documented in Jeremy Corbell's excellent movie, Bob Lazar, Area 51 and Flying Saucers. So, he goes there and sees this thing, and it's got an American flag sticker on it. And, you know, they basically say, "Tell us how it works." And he's like, "Oh, this is ours." Because he sees it has a sticker on it. Hmm. And then he realizes this is made out of some completely unknown alloy. There's no seams in it. It seems to be 3D-printed. There's no controls inside of it. It's designed for something that's three feet tall. It's all very fucking weird. Yeah. So, he's working on this thing, not making much headway at all.

• 49:30Joe Rogan?

  They understood that there was an element, Element 115. Yeah. That was not even on the periodic table. Eventually- Found to actually be a thing by the Large Hadron Collider. But even then, they only measured it for a millisecond, right? So then, he's saying that they have this stable version of this element. And you bombard it with radiation, creates this sort of gravity drive. He's working on this thing, and it's all top secret, so he cannot tell his wife. So, they're calling him up at 10 o'clock, like, "Hey, get to the airport, we need you." And so, he would have to fly out at random times, fly out to S4. And his wife was like, "This motherfucker's having an affair."

• 50:14Joe Rogan?

  "Well, I'm gonna have an affair too." So she starts fucking her flight attendant, or a flight instructor. I think that's what it was.

• 50:22Joe Rogan?

  When you have that kind of clearance, they are monitoring everything. They're monitoring all your phone calls.

• 50:28Joe Rogan?

  So they've realized that his wife is having an affair. And they think that he will be emotionally unstable, and it's too dangerous to have him working on this insanely top-secret information if he's not stable. So they tell him, you know, "We're gonna, at least temporarily, relieve you of your duties." So he's freaked out, and he tells his friends, like, "Hey, this is what they're doing there." "They have these things, and they fly them every Wednesday. 'I'm gonna take you guys, there's an area we can go watch.'" So they take, he takes his friends out there on two separate occasions, I believe. They get caught. They get caught, gets arrested, they release him, and he realizes, like, "I'm kinda fucked, they might kill me. I'm gonna have to go public with this." Contacts George Knapp.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  I did see that.

• 51:12Joe Rogan?

  Then the whole thing is history.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, no, that's wild, man. And I think, and it's still happening, you know, there's still these whistleblowers.

• 51:20Joe Rogan?

  He says they used to fly them, and you could go watch them fly these things. And they were moving in these really weird ways across the sky that you cannot do with conventional aircraft. That they only sort of understood how to, like, pick it up and put it down. They didn't understand how to, like, really.

• 51:35Speaker 03

  That was out at Groom Lake, right?

• 51:37Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, I remember as a kid, I've been, obviously been into this for a long time. I remember as a kid, seeing videos of people going out. And then they eventually closed it down, you couldn't get to that spot, but there was like a.

• 51:47Joe Rogan?

  That was during the Obama administration. During the Obama administration, they actually had to admit that Area 51 was real. Because before that, they didn't, no one even knew it was real. I mean, that was always just a joke, like, "Area 51," it was like, for fun. But then they said, "No, it is real, and we need to expand the forbidden boundary."

• 52:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. And isn't that when people were gonna like bum rush it too? Is that when that happened?

• 52:08Joe Rogan?

  That was during covid.

• 52:09Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 52:09Joe Rogan?

  During covid, there was a bunch of dorks that like, we're gonna crash area 51. That's a good way to die.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 52:14Joe Rogan?

  They'll fucking kill you.

• 52:15Speaker 03

  Hey, natural selection.

• 52:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they're working on a lot of stuff out there and some of it is weapons.

• 52:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:21Joe Rogan?

  They can't have you, uh, internet dorks from Reddit just running out into area 51.

• 52:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think they eventually realized that, cause I don't think they went out there, but it could have been bad.

• 52:31Joe Rogan?

  I think it was all bullshit. They weren't gonna, what are you gonna do? How are you gonna get out there?

• 52:34Speaker 03

  Engagement farming. Yeah, man, there's a lot of crazy shit that's been going on. It's been going on for a while. Uh, Jamie and I were talking before and about the stove piping too, and all the different. Yeah, the different ways that they compartmentalize what they're doing. They talked about it in Age of Disclosure too. That's a big problem because certain people are working on these parts of the craft, to reverse engineer them, to understand them, but they don't have the whole picture.

• 53:01Joe Rogan?

  Lazar was talking about that from the 1980s.

• 53:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:04Joe Rogan?

  In 1989, he said the people that are working on metallurgy were not in contact with the people that are working on propulsion. And you weren't, he's like, science cannot operate like that.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it can't, cause you need to know what's going on beyond just this little part that you're working on.

• 53:18Joe Rogan?

  And if you have a bunch of people that are sharing information, you get a much more comprehensive understanding of what this thing is.

• 53:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, we all benefit from communication.

• 53:25Joe Rogan?

  Right, cause there could be something involved in the actual structure of it that lends to its ability to do something. It might not be simply just structure. It might be structure with some sort of an ability.

• 53:36Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, you can't see the forest through the trees in these situations. And, and it's unfortunate and what the argument they made in this, this doco is that we're putting ourselves at disadvantage because other countries have probably retrieved these things too. And they might be working on, yes, in secrecy, but if people are working together.

• 53:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 53:54Speaker 03

  And not stove piping this thing.

• 53:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 53:57Speaker 03

  Ad infinitum, then they might be able to actually make more progress faster than us. So part of the disclosure push is to be like, yeah, these things are real. We have them. Let's get our best scientists together to work on this holistically instead of compartmentalizing it.

• 54:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, just imagine if they had done that from 1947, where we would be.

• 54:14Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 54:14Joe Rogan?

  If that's real, if Roswell was real, if all the crash is real, Philip Drake Corso is correct, and all these people are telling the truth.

• 54:20Speaker 03

  I know, and we still have to preface these things with if it's real, if it's real. And, and yeah, I, I, I do the same thing. I mean, as coming from academia, when I wrote my first book, I had to be like, if this is real, but it's hard. It's this, this paradox of sorts because it, how do you write to explain something that isn't real?

• 54:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 54:41Speaker 03

  What's the point of even doing that?

• 54:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:43Speaker 03

  Um, so, so I think we have to assume, I'm actually teaching a class, uh, Montana Tech, this spring called UFOs, History and Science.

• 54:51Joe Rogan?

  Ooh, I would take that if I was in school.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  I think, I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. I know, I'm pretty stoked about it. And I had these artists design a poster in Norway and the UK and just this crazy like, I was like, how, how conservative should I be with this? Like just a UFO? And I gave them total artistic freedom and there's like an alien holding the earth and this UFO is swinging around. I'm like, alright, I guess that's what I'm doing. Plastered it all over campus to recruit people to take the class. But like, I'm going in on day one, we're not, we're not gonna fuck around with like, are these things real? We're not gonna waste time on that. We're gonna jump in, these are real, here's what we're doing, this is what we know, this is what we don't know, explore the theories, explore the history, explore the prehistory. Cause it's, it's a waste of time. Like these things, these things are real.

• 55:36Joe Rogan?

  You think they're real?

• 55:37Speaker 03

  I know.

• 55:37Joe Rogan?

  What makes you convinced?

• 55:39Speaker 03

  Um, I have read enough accounts in researching this and from people that I know, I mean, starting from when I was a kid, hearing my biological father's account, you know, the way he told it. And then I interviewed him again in college to try to get more information, cause I was just overhearing from the stairs when I was supposed to be in bed. He saw what he saw. And then eventually, I saw some UFOs.

• 56:05Joe Rogan?

  What did you see?

• 56:06Speaker 03

  I was kinda pissed actually, cause I started talking about this in 2018 and people were always like, you ever seen a UFO? No, never seen a UFO. I'd like to. And then finally, in 2022. Uh, it might have been late 2021. I don't remember exactly when it was kind of warmish. So it was probably 2021. But I, I was, everybody's in bed, I'm at my house, I live in a canyon. And I was having a whiskey and I was like, I just walked up the canyon wall for some reason. Like the hill behind my house. I don't really know why. I turned around and I could see these five super bright lights over what's known as the East Ridge in Butte, Montana. They're just like sitting there right over the East Ridge. I was like, well, that's not normal. Those aren't usually there. And they weren't stars, you know, they're way too big, way too close.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  I would say they were probably within eight to, five to eight miles. You know, they, they were in the distance, but they were like there. And then I just kind of looked at them for a second. I'm like, oh, that's weird. And then one by one, from right to left, they just went

• 57:07Speaker 03

  shot off toward the southeast at like crazy speed, you know, like the, the kind of like in, in Star Wars or Star Trek and they hit hyperdrive and there's that, that little light trail. Like just one by one until they were all gone.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  That, I have no conventional explanation for that.

• 57:25Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 57:27Speaker 03

  But I've never been one of those people that's like, I need to see it to believe it.

• 57:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 57:31Speaker 03

  Because I believe the people who say the same thing over and over. There's patterns that we can extract from people's testaments who have had these close encounters. And that's one unfortunate thing that's happening right now is we're talking about the pilots, talking about police. But people have been seeing these forever, but they did such a good job manufacturing the stigma around it with Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Blue Book. They discount these people to make them seem insane, you know, these

• 57:56Joe Rogan?

  That is one of the main points of evidence that I would point to that there is something. When people think there isn't something, I'm like, you should really pay attention to what they were trying to do during Project Blue Book.

• 58:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:07Joe Rogan?

  Because one of them, I have a buddy of mine, my friend Steve Graham, shout out to Steve. When he was a boy. He was living in New York, upstate New York, and he filmed this red orb that was flying across the sky, and he took some photographs of it. And they called someone, some officials somewhere, I don't remember, he was very young, and they said, "We are gonna analyze the photos, and then we'll bring them back to you." And they never returned the photographs. When he called, he said, "No agents, there's no record of any agents coming to visit you. We don't know what to tell you." So they just took his photos, and that was it. But he said, whatever it was, you know, he was young, I believe he was 10 or 11, and

• 58:52Joe Rogan?

  he said, "Whatever it was, was really weird." He goes, "It was this red orb that was flying through the sky. It was a spacecraft, it wasn't a sun, it wasn't a meteor. It looked like it was moving purposely and under control, and it was there long enough for him to take a Polaroid of it."

• 59:12Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 59:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and they just completely erased any memory of it, or any evidence of it. When he called, like I said, they said, "No agents visited you, whatever the agent's name was, there was no agents by that name."

• 59:30Speaker 03

  That's kind of the status quo.

• 59:31Joe Rogan?

  They tried to make you look like a fool.

• 59:33Speaker 03

  Absolutely, and that was intentional. Like, the stated mission of Project Grudge was to debunk these things, come up with conventional explanations, and make people seem like idiots.

• 59:43Joe Rogan?

  Right. Not, it wasn't to investigate.

• 59:45Speaker 03

  No, not at all.

• 59:46Joe Rogan?

  The purpose wasn't, "Let's get to the bottom of this, find out, is this Russia? Is Russia doing this?" That was not the purpose. The purpose was, "Make these people look like fools." You only do that if you know something that other people don't.

• 59:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:58Joe Rogan?

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• 1:00:42Speaker 03

  And it worked. They did a damn good job at it because we still feel like fools talking about this.

• 1:00:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:46Speaker 03

  And we still have to check ourselves and be like, is this real? If this is real, you know?

• 1:00:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  But, but I think that shame is starting to diminish. I think the stigma is starting to go away.

• 1:00:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think the New York Times article from 2017 was huge.

• 1:00:59Speaker 03

  That was a game changer.

• 1:01:00Joe Rogan?

  That was a big one.

• 1:01:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:02Joe Rogan?

  And then from then on, it's been this trickle.

• 1:01:04Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:05Joe Rogan?

  These guys like Ryan Graves and, you know, guys like David Faver. These, these David Favors guys that was, you know, he was in a fighter jet, saw this thing move from 50,000 feet above sea level to sea level in less than a second.

• 1:01:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:23Joe Rogan?

  And they saw this thing, there was something under the water below it. It's like whatever he saw, and if you ever talked to him, have you ever talked to him?

• 1:01:33Speaker 03

  I've talked to Alex Dietrich, who was with them during that.

• 1:01:36Joe Rogan?

  He's a very reliable guy and very intelligent, by the book, very disciplined.

• 1:01:43Speaker 03

  I mean, he was like a Top Gun pilot.

• 1:01:45Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:01:45Speaker 03

  Like he was leading the whole group, right?

• 1:01:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. He's a commander.

• 1:01:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:50Joe Rogan?

  So, and when he describes it, it sounds very real. Whatever he's talking about, he experienced. I believe that. And there's also a video of it. There's video of it flying. Um, they have the radar data.

• 1:02:03Speaker 03

  Radar data, yeah.

• 1:02:04Joe Rogan?

  They know that it went to their designated meetup point.

• 1:02:06Speaker 03

  The cap point.

• 1:02:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, which is really weird.

• 1:02:08Speaker 03

  It is. And it indicates they knew the future. Or... They were part of our military.

• 1:02:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:02:16Speaker 03

  I kinda wonder if the Tic Tac, because it is somewhat anomalous in the context of a lot of things in the UFO lore, as far as spinning discs or big triangular craft. This one kinda seems like one of ours.

• 1:02:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, it is odd that these things happen where there's a lot of military training exercises. Like, this one was off the coast of San Diego.

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:37Joe Rogan?

  It was off the Nimitz, you know, so they had the Nimitz, which was out there. Obviously, you got a lot of military in San Diego.

• 1:02:43Speaker 03

  And the Roosevelt, too, I think, is where they were capturing the radar.

• 1:02:46Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, and the ones that Ryan Graves experienced were all east coast. Again, it's all near military bases. It's all where they do military training exercises.

• 1:02:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, and why not figure out what you can do with people that you train with already, anyway?

• 1:03:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:03:03Speaker 03

  You know?

• 1:03:03Joe Rogan?

  And why not see, like, what is detectable and what's not? You know, Ryan Graves talked about how in 2014, they upgraded all the sensors in the jets, and then all of a sudden, they started picking these things up all over the place. He said they were encountering them virtually every time they went out. Which is so weird. Imagine you're encountering, uh, was it a circle inside of a sphere? Or a sphere inside of a circle?

• 1:03:27Speaker 03

  I think it was a circle and a sphere.

• 1:03:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, whatever it was.

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:32Joe Rogan?

  Which one was it? Was it a circle and a sphere?

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  It was, I just saw a picture on Twitter recently. It was a little circle and then a cube or something.

• 1:03:39Joe Rogan?

  Very fucking weird, whatever that is.

• 1:03:41Speaker 03

  It is.

• 1:03:41Joe Rogan?

  And able to hover motionless in, like, 200 knots of wind.

• 1:03:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it would make sense if we are reverse engineering these. They're gonna look pretty primitive. It's basically a big propane tank that they're flying around. Like, they probably started simple, it's probably unmanned, but they're testing that capability to, like, manipulate the space-time to shoot off, you know, because it dropped 10, 80,000 feet in a couple seconds.

• 1:04:03Joe Rogan?

  That's what it supposedly looks like. A cube inside of a sphere. Yeah, I can remember.

• 1:04:06Speaker 03

  Apparently, my dyslexia extends to images, too.

• 1:04:09Joe Rogan?

  Explained using UFO patents. Click on that. Explained. A recent article by The Hill has highlighted the reports of a cubanosphere UAP military pilots have been seeing as reported by Graves, where he once again highlights how often our pilots are seeing these things and why he doesn't believe they are conventional drones or balloons. And so, this is, uh, our, obviously, some sort of a computer-generated rendition. Ah, the fucking pop-up.

• 1:04:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. For sure. But, I mean, yeah, they didn't get a picture of it, but...

• 1:04:41Joe Rogan?

  But here's the patents. Scroll up a little bit. Uh, so a month ago, I did a deep dive on a post about UFO patents, how magnetohydrodynamic propulsion systems could explain some of the observations. Includes an expired patent from the 1960s and a few newer patents describing not only the propulsion, but how the plasma field can make the craft invisible to radar.

• 1:05:02Speaker 03

  Huh. Huh. Yeah. I mean, again, it makes sense. Like, if, if we have been reverse engineering these for seventy years, we would start bringing them out. They would look weird. They wouldn't necessarily look like the craft that we struggled to fly at Groom Lake, that we could go up and down with, and that's about it. Like, they would look like this little thing that's simple. It's basic. It's a propane tank, or it's a cube within a sphere. I probably had that backwards again. Um, and then experiment with it. See what you can do. And a lot of people make the argument, "Well, why would they do that? It's dangerous. You know, what if there was a midair collision?" If they are actually manipulating spacetime in these things, like they seemingly are with the saucer-shaped craft, you don't have to worry about that.

• 1:05:45Speaker 03

  You know, you're, you're, you're, it's, this isn't a cat and mouse game where the cat and mouse are equal. Like, you have complete control of spacetime in and around that area. You're not gonna run into anybody. They're all moving extremely slowly relative to you. According to Putoff and Davis at the end of that doco, and whoever reached out to me, whether it was Hal or not, somebody reached out to me and explained the same thing in 2019. And it makes a lot of damn sense. And, to kind of extend it into my area of research, if you can manipulate space and time in and around this craft, what's keeping you from using that to travel through time?

• 1:06:16Joe Rogan?

  I guess. I mean, but again, that's with the, the different model, not the multi-worlds model, but what was the other model that you described?

• 1:06:25Speaker 03

  Block universe.

• 1:06:26Joe Rogan?

  Block universe model.

• 1:06:26Speaker 03

  Block universe theory.

• 1:06:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, um... The idea that they would be so advanced that they could genetically engineer a body and get to whatever state they are at where they communicate telepathically, but yet they can't solve the problem of old DNA, like needing, what do they need? Genetic diversity? Like, what is it? What are they trying to get out of us? Are they trying to get the source, source material? Instead of the old stuff? Or instead of the stuff that they've had forever?

• 1:07:00Speaker 03

  One of the arguments I made in my first and second books is that, really, since European colonialism started about 500 years ago, we are all becoming one interbreeding population. So it used to be that you had different, isolated populations, and then occasionally there would be gene flow that introduces new genes. If we all are just one population on this inbred island of Earth, where are you going to get new gene variants? And then you combine that with the things we just talked about, with the potential for things to go wrong with trying to make designer babies, or, you know, the trends toward reduced fertility in men and women, and importantly, the potential that there

• 1:07:42Speaker 03

  could be some massive cataclysm that puts us into a huge bottleneck, where there just is no genetic diversity at all. Like, if you think about something that happened that wiped out a huge percentage of the population, and there are warnings about this over and over again with experiencers and contactees, they're like, there's some cataclysmic thing coming. If that were to happen, all of those problems we're already having, all of the trends that are already leading to us having problems with fertility in the future, would be hugely exacerbated by a very limited gene pool.

• 1:08:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, we know that human beings have gotten down to a very small population in the past.

• 1:08:18Speaker 03

  It's happened before, yeah.

• 1:08:19Joe Rogan?

  So we are...

• 1:08:20Speaker 03

  So we're already kind of limited

• 1:08:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  in our diversity.

• 1:08:24Joe Rogan?

  What do you think of the theory that human beings have been genetically engineered?

• 1:08:28Speaker 03

  Man, when I first started in all this, I wouldn't touch that one, because I had to impose some restrictions on myself so I didn't seem like a crazy person.

• 1:08:40Joe Rogan?

  And keep your academic standing?

• 1:08:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:44Speaker 03

  I don't really care anymore, to be honest.

• 1:08:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, you sold a few books.

• 1:08:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I sold some books. I mean, that's the thing is like, I do have the respect of my peers.

• 1:08:52Joe Rogan?

  And it's not a career killer anymore.

• 1:08:54Speaker 03

  No, exactly. You know, I mean, back in 2018, I was kind of rolling the dice. I was really nervous about it. I went to the chair of my department and was like, hey, just so you know, in case there's any pushback, I'm publishing this book about whether, you know, UFOs are future humans. And he looked at me and cocked his head and it's like, that's our job. It's what we're supposed to be doing, asking questions like that. Like, he was all pissed off, like, why are you even asking me this or telling me this?

• 1:09:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's a cool guy to work for.

• 1:09:20Speaker 03

  I was like, sweet. All right. Well, check. I got one. I got one on board at least. But I was really conservative in this approach. Like, the dean, actually, of my college, who gave me an award for scholarship and research, and there's a lot of amazing researchers at Montana Technological University, like, we're very well-known for research and scholarship. She gave me an award in 2022 for research and scholarship, and all I was doing at that point was UFO stuff. You know, that was kind of a nod, too. But she was telling me the other day in a meeting, because I'm the chair of the department, unfortunately, and she was like, oh, your dissertation book. Because I did kind of write my first book as a dissertation.

• 1:10:00Speaker 03

  It's very scientific. It's very dense. It's very technical. But I needed to do that because of the stigma, you know, because of the shame. And you're right, it is changing, which is great. But there are certain things that we still can't, that are hard for me to talk about because it starts to get into ancient aliens' territory, and that's one of them. Are they manipulating us genetically? Have they been for a long time? I don't know. I used to say, I don't know, so I didn't have to talk about it. Now I say, I don't know, because I genuinely don't know. Maybe.

• 1:10:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, how could you?

• 1:10:32Speaker 03

  How could I? Yeah, good point.

• 1:10:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, it's all theoretical. But there seems to be a trend in at least the encounter reports. And there's, when people have reported some sort of communication with these things.

• 1:10:47Joe Rogan?

  There, there is, there's a lot of talk of genetic manipulation.

• 1:10:51Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:52Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of talk of.

• 1:10:53Speaker 03

  It's the most common trope.

• 1:10:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:55Speaker 03

  Thing.

• 1:10:56Joe Rogan?

  But it also makes sense when you look at how different we are than any other animal that exists or has existed.

• 1:11:02Speaker 03

  True.

• 1:11:02Joe Rogan?

  We're so advanced and so weird and we vary so much. Like biologically and structurally, I mean, there's animals, like there's different kinds of wolves, right? There's gray wolves and red wolves and they vary and, you know, red wolves and gray wolves, they can't even interbreed and create viable offspring in terms of like their ability, like they would be hybrids if they did breed where they wouldn't. But they don't, they don't breed with red wolves. And coyotes, which is also a type of wolf, but that's kind of where it ends. Whereas humans are fucking weird, at least coyotes all look like coyotes. Wolves all kind of look like wolves. Like with humans, you get seven foot tall people and five foot tall people and round people and thin.

• 1:11:45Speaker 03

  But we are actually all very similar genetically. There's a study done in the seventies.

• 1:11:52Speaker 03

  Looking at, at polymorphisms and they found that between like what it used to be thought there were races like Africans, Asians and Europeans, that was it. They didn't consider Native Americans or Australians or anybody. But they did this study on polymorphisms, found that only about six to seven percent of our, all of our genetic differences can be accounted for by those between group differences. And they did the same thing with Y chromosomes, they did the same thing with craniofacial anatomy and found that we're all very similar. So despite those differences in height, weight, skin color, hair color, eye color, we're, we're very, very similar, which could again, lead to problems related to genetic homogenization, limited gene pool in the future, needing to go back and, and sample gametes from the past.

• 1:12:37Speaker 03

  Another argument I hear people make related to what you're saying, like an argument for potential genetic manipulation of the human species over time is that it all happened really fast. We see this acceleration in our rate of change, rate of our technological development. Those things might indicate that there's some sort of seeding in the past with. Not just technology.

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• 1:14:37Speaker 03

  But the genetics that allow us to expand our minds and develop these things.

• 1:14:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, then there's the weird stories from ancient scripts, ancient texts like the Book of Enoch. Like, what is that all about? Like, that's some weird stuff. Where it talks about the watchers coming down from the sky and mating with humans and creating the Nephilim, who destroy everything.

• 1:15:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, I might get some shit for this, but I would be willing to bet that all major religions, and the little ones, have some sort of UFO alien component to the myth and legend that gave rise to them over time.

• 1:15:16Joe Rogan?

  It makes sense.

• 1:15:17Speaker 03

  It does. Actually, the third book I wrote, Revelation, flips the whole script on Revelation, and it interjects time travelers, it interjects this, this whole, there was, for a while, there was this question of like, whether there was a fight over the timeline, whether the grays were coming back to, because some cataclysm needed to happen, and we all went underground, and that's why we have big eyes and pale skin, so we had to evolve underground for a while, and then another group like, trying to keep that from happening. So the book kind of explores that in a fictional capacity. And I wrote it because my friends weren't reading my science books, because they're dense and scientific. And I was like,

• 1:15:56Speaker 03

  man, you know, what if I wrote a book that's just like a crass, sex, drug-fueled exploration of like, this time travel idea? And that's where that book came from. It still ties in all of these same concepts scientifically, but in the story, like, the, the main character is a, an intertemporal sex researcher. She goes back in time and just fucks everybody to learn what, to learn what sex is. That's the book I gave you when I got here, actually. It's a weird one.

• 1:16:22Joe Rogan?

  That's right here.

• 1:16:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a weird one. But it was super fun to write, you know, and, and they're like, and, and then her, the professor in this book, he's like the, the, he, he's an intertemporal drug kingpin of sorts. But, but it's like, it's exploring these same ideas in a different way, you know, with fiction, it's satire, it's comedy. The, the word most commonly used is it's hilarious, it's a comedy book. You know, because I wanted people that don't read the science books to still be introduced to this concept and the science behind it in a different way. And man, it was so much more fun to write than those science books.

• 1:16:57Joe Rogan?

  What do you think of when people start theorizing about some sort of a breakaway civilization that lives under the ocean?

• 1:17:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we actually published a paper about that last June about the crypto terrestrial hypothesis. You mentioned it on your show in a really funny way because it went viral internationally. It was absolutely insane. The impact this thing had, like I had to go on Fox and Friends one morning to talk about it and then the next day I did.

• 1:17:29Joe Rogan?

  What made it go viral? What was the?

• 1:17:31Speaker 03

  Well, because I published it with two guys from Harvard. I was a co-author in the paper and so it's clickbait. It's Harvard researchers say dinosaurs are aliens and they live among you. So stuff like that. And it worked because it, I, I, I, yeah.

• 1:17:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, it makes you go, what?

• 1:17:49Speaker 03

  Yours was the funniest one. You guys pulled it up on your screen and you're like, man, these Harvard researchers must have snuck in where they're doing the psilocybin experiments and ate all the mushrooms.

• 1:18:03Speaker 03

  That cracked me up. And I don't think we did. I don't remember if we did. I don't think we did. But it definitely had elements of like, these guys ate a lot of mushrooms, which was part of why it went viral. But there were some really solid arguments in there and the title of the paper was scientific openness to the crypto terrestrial idea. That's all we were advocating for. And we listed four main ways in which this crypto terrestrial idea could happen. And the fourth one is what really got clickbaity because we were like, maybe there is a breakaway civilization. That's the crypto terrestrial idea. But maybe an advanced reptile dinosaurs didn't go extinct. And this was, you know, we don't think this actually happened, but we're just putting out

• 1:18:47Speaker 03

  arguments for what this idea could be. And so, yeah, they took that and put like dinosaurs at keyboards and stuff like that. But, but one of them is time travelers and it would make sense if you were in the future, instead of jumping back through time in order to study people in a specific time, you set up a base on the far side of the moon or up until the 60s, 70s, we wouldn't know they were there. Set up a base under the oceans and this would go for the extraterrestrial idea too, instead of. Traversing the vast swaths of space.

• 1:19:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:19:18Speaker 03

  Come here, set up under the oceans where we're not gonna find you.

• 1:19:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:19:22Speaker 03

  Antarctica, far side of the moon. And then you can do everything here locally instead of having to jump across space extraterrestrial, or jump across time extratempestrium.

• 1:19:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, it also explains some of the very strange ways that they've observed crafts moving under the water.

• 1:19:38Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:39Joe Rogan?

  Like, they've observed crafts moving under the water at 500 knots, that are as big as a football field. And apparently, there's video of these things. Apparently, there's, you know, the Navy has something that they filmed that is as big as a football field. It was going essentially 500 miles an hour underwater without any ripples. Not disturbing the water at all, not creating a wake.

• 1:20:00Speaker 03

  And then moving right out of them, the transmedium capacity.

• 1:20:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, you know, when you think about how little explor- explor- excuse me, exploration we've done to the bottom of the ocean, it's we know more about the moon than we do about the surface of the, the actual bottom of the ocean.

• 1:20:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, it would be a great place to hide out. And again, you know, the ability to move in and out of air, water, space, upper atmosphere, with no disturbances, the transmedium capabilities. That whole warped space-time bubble around them would help explain that, too, that they're not experiencing the water, they're not experiencing the air as they move between them. Like, I, I always think about, I really love skiing. And one of my favorite times to ski is, is late season. You know, it's April, the sun's out, everybody's in t-shirts or bikinis or whatever. I don't wear bikinis, but people do. And you get into that slushy stuff, you're cruising down the mountain, you hit the slush, and you just go

• 1:20:58Speaker 03

  ass over kettle, you know, over the top of your skis. And, and that's what, you know, we would expect if they're moving in and out of air and water and, and space, is that there would be some resistance. There's not. You know, they don't have that. And it, it does indicate. That there is some sort of manipulation of of space and time around them. And and yeah, moving underwater, these football field sized craft going that fast. I mean, how can you do that if there is actual resistance from the water?

• 1:21:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, it just makes you wonder, how much does the government know? You know, you've seen that guy, Tim Burchett, talk about it.

• 1:21:35Speaker 03

  He's hilarious.

• 1:21:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was very funny. I mean, he was just casually mentioning that there's five different locations in the ocean of the world, in the seas of the world, where they've observed crafts coming out of. That's a very weird thing to just say while you're walking, just casually talk about it.

• 1:21:52Speaker 03

  And and with such confidence, yeah.

• 1:21:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:54Speaker 03

  I mean, they're they're doing these skiffs. They're talking to people behind closed doors.

• 1:21:58Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:21:59Speaker 03

  They don't have the same requirement to not disclose things as those people do. You know, they didn't sign NDAs. And he has a hilarious way of talking about it. He's got the best one liners of anybody discussing this stuff. I I mean, somebody knows, somebody knows a lot of things. A lot of people probably know a lot of things and have for a very long time. But, you know, what is that relationship? What do they control? Why are we not allowed to know?

• 1:22:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, this is the real question, like, what do they actually know about what's going on in the ocean? Like, if there are bases somewhere down in the ocean, there's that weird one, the Baltic Sea anomaly.

• 1:22:38Speaker 03

  I don't know that one.

• 1:22:39Joe Rogan?

  You know, with that one?

• 1:22:39Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:22:39Joe Rogan?

  Jesse Michaels just did a show about it where he interviewed the guy who found it. I think they're treasure divers. And they found this very strange thing that is sitting on the floor of the ocean. And it has right angles to it and it's it's kind of curved. There's an actual, I don't know what kind of an image is of it. But they have explored this thing and he's convinced that it's it's not a natural formation.

• 1:23:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, interesting.

• 1:23:09Joe Rogan?

  See if you can find something on the Baltic Sea, put that into our sponsor.

• 1:23:13Speaker 03

  So is there an indication? It's like a like a base or something?

• 1:23:16Joe Rogan?

  It looks like a fucking Millennium Falkland. What's wrong with my mouth today? I can't say Millennium Falcon. Like, that's what it looks like.

• 1:23:23Speaker 03

  Ah, that's interesting.

• 1:23:25Joe Rogan?

  So, you know, look, this could be something that's sitting on, or it could be something that was built at a time where this was not covered by ocean.

• 1:23:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:35Joe Rogan?

  Like, you live in Montana. Montana used to be the great inland sea, right?

• 1:23:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:40Joe Rogan?

  There was, you could find seashells in Montana, which is really weird.

• 1:23:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, and even all along the coast of Alaska, like, there was about a hundred and ten foot rise in sea level over the last twelve thousand years.

• 1:23:51Joe Rogan?

  So what, like, more images of this thing? Like, what, what is that thing?

• 1:23:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:55Joe Rogan?

  Like, these are all artistic renditions.

• 1:23:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, some of them are.

• 1:23:58Joe Rogan?

  Some of them are. But the other one, that blue one that you see there, that's the real thing. That's what it actually looks like.

• 1:24:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's pretty anomalous.

• 1:24:05Joe Rogan?

  Right. And what, what is that, though? Is that an ancient structure that people built, you know, twenty thousand years ago? Like, what is it? Baltic Sea Anomaly is a sonar-detected seafloor formation in the Northern Baltic Sea, found in 2011 by Swedish OceanX, formerly Ocean Explorer Team during a treasure hunting expedition. Most geologists, who have examined the available data, consider it a natural rock formation shaped by glacial processes despite ongoing popular speculation about UFOs or artificial origin.

• 1:24:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:37Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:24:38Speaker 03

  It's tough, man.

• 1:24:39Joe Rogan?

  There's that thing off the coast of Malibu, too. Is that Malibu, or is it Catalina Island? Was that one thing where it was in Google Earth and then they blurred it out after a while?

• 1:24:48Speaker 03

  I think that's just a Google Earth thing. Maybe, or maybe not, but...

• 1:24:52Joe Rogan?

  But it was on Google Earth and then it, now it's blurred.

• 1:24:55Speaker 03

  I read where they're getting the data from Google Earth, you know? Like, where that, what is that data, you know? Not to take a picture.

• 1:25:02Joe Rogan?

  So it was like, bad data?

• 1:25:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:25:04Joe Rogan?

  And then it cleared up?

• 1:25:05Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 1:25:05Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:25:06Speaker 03

  Also, that's a good answer.

• 1:25:07Joe Rogan?

  I did a- That's a good answer for the government.

• 1:25:09Speaker 03

  I did a talk in Manhattan last year.

• 1:25:15Speaker 03

  And Tim Gallaudet was one of the speakers and he was showing images of, I think, what you're talking about, where there was like this sort of, almost like a cliff underwater and then had some strange things around it. Like it'd been modified or, I didn't, I don't remember exactly what he was saying, but I think that, I think that's what you're talking about. That was just off of Catalina Island.

• 1:25:34Joe Rogan?

  That's right. Yeah, it was very weird looking and a lot of people were speculating. And the, one of the reasons why it's very weird, there's a lot of sightings off of Catalina Island.

• 1:25:42Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:43Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of sightings out there.

• 1:25:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it, you know, again, it makes sense if they were trying to covertly study us, regardless of their origins, ultra-terrestrial, extraterrestrial, whatever, um, use the oceans.

• 1:25:57Joe Rogan?

  Perfect. Perfect base. It's very difficult for us to get there.

• 1:26:01Speaker 03

  Especially if you can move in and out of there with impunity, not just because we won't see them, but they have the technology to make the water and the air the same thing.

• 1:26:08Joe Rogan?

  Click on that image where the cursor's at?

• 1:26:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was it.

• 1:26:10Joe Rogan?

  So that's it, that's it. Whatever that is. Like, that looks real weird.

• 1:26:14Speaker 03

  It does look weird.

• 1:26:14Joe Rogan?

  That looks real weird. Whatever the hell that is. That's so strange. That's so strange looking. But again, that's like, is that what it really looks like? What are, what are the new images? Is the new one on the right? Okay, that's it, right there.

• 1:26:29Speaker 00

  The one that had up says it's from 2014.

• 1:26:33Joe Rogan?

  Like, what the hell is that? It's got pillars. I mean, that's very strange. It has those sort of uniform-shaped pillars.

• 1:26:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, and the top looks structural, you know, like something you would make to withstand the weight of the water above you.

• 1:26:47Joe Rogan?

  Right. Like a garage door. Like it's a garage door to a base.

• 1:26:51Speaker 03

  Yep. No, I mean, again, when I started out in this, I was relatively conservative with my views on things. But man, the further you go down this rabbit hole, just the weirder shit gets and you can't do that anymore. You've got to recognize that there's a lot of things that just... You can't write off, you know? The impossible become possible, or at least you have to open your mind to the fact that these things you used to think were impossible need a second look.

• 1:27:17Joe Rogan?

  Right. And then there's also the people that work in military intelligence that work with these defense contractors that say there's black black operations, like operations that are completely top secret, that are thirty years ahead of anything that you can imagine right now. So you go, okay, well, what does that look like? What does thirty years ahead of us now look like?

• 1:27:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, like that was SR seventy-one, the Blackbird, or whatever it is, black whatever. Yeah, like, we didn't even know about that until twenty years after they had made it.

• 1:27:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:27:51Speaker 03

  And it makes sense, you know, you don't want your enemies to know, and that's an argument that's been made over and over, that we can't disclose things, because then our enemies will have this technology. And I always thought, growing up, that, you know, it'll take a war before they're like, oh, we need to use these things. We've been developing, like, we're getting our ass kicked in this war, it's time to bring out the UFOs and our space station laser weapons and stuff, but I, I kind of think it's gonna happen before that. It's, it's weird to say, but I kind of get the sense that it is happening. There's been a lot of false horizons, people have been saying that for a long time, but doesn't it feel different?

• 1:28:26Joe Rogan?

  It definitely does feel different. It definitely feels that the general public is a lot more open to the concept without being thought of as a fool.

• 1:28:35Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:28:36Joe Rogan?

  It, it used to be, when I was a kid, if you'd bring up UFOs, people would just roll their eyes, especially before the internet. Oh, my god. If you brought up any of that stuff, they would laugh at you. I was reading some book on Roswell once, like, I think it was in the nineteen nineties. And, you know, this guy's like, what the fuck are you wasting your time on this complete horseshit for? There's no such thing as UFOs. I'm like, how do you say that with such confidence? Like, we, we live in a galaxy with hundreds of billions of star, stars, just in this galaxy, with hundreds of billions of stars in other galaxies, and there's hundreds of billions of other galaxies. Like, what are you saying? It's crazy to say that we are the only ones.

• 1:29:13Speaker 03

  It is. They did a really good job at making us feel like idiots.

• 1:29:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, you can see how that can be done, you know? I mean, look what they did during the COVID crisis. You know, if you don't get a vaccine, make your end of life preparations now. You know, like, you're gonna be killing everybody. No one's gonna survive. This disease targets the unvaccinated. And people believed all that.

• 1:29:37Speaker 03

  Well, I think the two are related, too, because we started to figure out that we've been lied to about UFOs. And the obvious question is, what else? What else were they lying to us about?

• 1:29:45Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Well, I think, once you realize how strong the propaganda machine is and how gullible people are.

• 1:29:51Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, that's the big one.

• 1:29:52Joe Rogan?

  Easily, I mean, if people were going to accept something as 100% truth, any investigation or any skepticism from the pharmaceutical drug industry, they are the most evil motherfuckers that have ever lived. They are responsible for more death from releasing drugs that have horrible adverse side effects that they knew about. They have taken the largest criminal fines of any companies. I mean, what they've done is really fucking creepy. When you look at how they released drugs that they knew were going to fuck people over, and they knew those people didn't need those drugs. And yet, when you put people in a scary situation, and you make them terrified, and you offer up a solution,

• 1:30:37Joe Rogan?

  they believe wholeheartedly that the pharmaceutical drug companies were only telling the truth, and anybody who didn't believe is a suspect.

• 1:30:44Speaker 03

  They have your best interests in mind.

• 1:30:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so it's like that sheep mentality is so strong with so many people. There are so many cowards in the world, and so many followers that would just step in line the moment things get weird. Whenever they get challenged, the moment things get weird. But it just makes sense that if you make it, like, socially, you become a social pariah if you start talking about UFOs. Here's Mike with his fucking wacky UFO theories. Like, people don't talk about those things. They don't want to bring them up.

• 1:31:13Speaker 03

  And the military industrial complex is kind of the equivalent of the pharmaceutical companies on the other side of this coin.

• 1:31:19Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:31:20Speaker 03

  Uh, you know, we trust them, they defend us, whatever they are making. I'm sure they'll use for great purposes. But, yeah, I mean, a big part of that was making us feel like idiots for talking about this stuff. And that is changing, though, and it's not... Largely because of, you know, Ancient Aliens, I've been on the show five times. I had a little bit of cognitive dissonance the first time I went on.

• 1:31:43Joe Rogan?

  That show goes, they go way out there.

• 1:31:45Speaker 03

  They get out there, man.

• 1:31:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:46Speaker 03

  And they, they totally.

• 1:31:47Joe Rogan?

  But it's just fun.

• 1:31:48Speaker 03

  It is fun, you know, and that's how I approached it. Well, I also approached it because I was trying to talk about this theory. They did this funny bait and switch for the first three episodes I was on where they're like, hey, come down, talk about your theory. I'm like, oh, okay. So I'll go to LA or wherever. And we do the shoot, they cut out everything about my books and this theory and just used me to talk about whatever this show was actually about.

• 1:32:10Joe Rogan?

  Little small snippets.

• 1:32:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I caught on to that. And so the fourth time I went, I was like, all right, but I'm only doing it if you guys actually, you know. But in the, one of the episodes was about this whole theory anyway. So it made sense, but um, I forget what we're talking about.

• 1:32:27Speaker 03

  Oh, the stigma. So one of the cool things that's been happening largely because of Ancient Aliens, your show, you know, you talk about this a lot and it helps normalize it for a lot of people. Is that there's a safe space now, you know? Like where, where you'll be talking about these things and somebody will come up who had a sighting when they were, you know, a teenager or in their 40s or whatever. And they never told anybody. And now it's like, wait, it's safe to talk about this? And that's so cool to see, man. And then it makes me realize just how many people have had an experience. It's been bottled up inside and it's liberating to let that come out and we're sharing information and contactees too.

• 1:33:05Speaker 03

  You know, unfortunately, I started saying earlier, we're still kind of stuck on, this is changing too, but we're still largely stuck on the cockpit videos and the FLIR and the gimbal and the go fast. But people have been taken into these crafts. They've had stuff put on their junk and their semen taken, you know? Like there's a lot of no no square touching that happens, anal probes, you know? And we used to laugh at that, but that is such a common theme throughout these. And we need to recognize that these people are having real experiences and have been having them for a very long time. Let's move on. Let's talk to these people. Let's let the contactees and experiencers who have had the closest form of a close encounter you can have. Let's trust them now. Let's listen to what they have to say. Let's be discerning, you know, but let's keep an open mind.

• 1:33:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think one of the more interesting things when you start talking about stories and encounters. One of the more interesting things is some of the research that Jacques Vallée has done, where he brings up stories that absolutely predate the modern cultural visions of UFOs. Like the modern cultural concept of the close encounter of the third kind type grays that come down in a flying saucer. All those things, like flying saucer didn't even come out until the Kenneth Arnold experiences. Yeah. So it's, these encounters, people are talking about from the 1700s and the 1800s.

• 1:34:28Joe Rogan?

  And they're talking about something coming down and something interacting with people and, you know, them having some sort of experience of. This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, The Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food.

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• 1:37:07Speaker 03

  Yep. Yeah, it's not just the Gammian extractions. I mean, you, you could make the argument that a lot of things that happened in very mainstream religious texts were exactly what people are describing. Even the CIA admitted that people, like unexplainable pregnancies are an aspect of the phenomenon, you know? Where Jesus come from? Kind of an unexplainable pregnancy. I think Jesus was a time traveler personally.

• 1:37:35Joe Rogan?

  A time traveler?

• 1:37:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's another aspect of that book.

• 1:37:38Joe Rogan?

  That's in your satire?

• 1:37:39Speaker 03

  It's in my satire book, yeah. Uh, I think.

• 1:37:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you literally have Jesus coming out of a UFO?

• 1:37:45Speaker 03

  I got some shit for that. With the double bird. He's throwing up the double bird. It turns out Christians don't like that.

• 1:37:52Joe Rogan?

  Well.

• 1:37:53Speaker 03

  You know, can't please everybody, right?

• 1:37:55Joe Rogan?

  No, he can't.

• 1:37:56Speaker 03

  But there are many aspects of Jesus's life. Big fan of Jesus, by the way. Um, that are very paranormal. A lot of these seemingly miraculous things I think can be explained with a lot of the same technologies that we see today. We just didn't have a way of conceptualizing them. Obviously Ezekiel is the one that gets talked about a lot. The wheel within a wheel, the telepathy, the embers, burning embers.

• 1:38:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:20Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, and then you look at the Nephilim, like, uh, and all kinds of different, sort of, Baba Wana Rasa, this, um, story from Zulu lore. It's a fucking alien abduction, man. And they've been telling this story for

• 1:38:33Joe Rogan?

  How's the story go?

• 1:38:34Speaker 03

  Thousands of years. So it's this, this woman, the sky goddess, who chooses a man to mate with, and comes down, tests him to make sure that he knows that it's her. Appears in his dreams, communicates telepathically, gets him ready for this interaction. He's in love with her, never met her before. She comes down from the sky and takes him up with her on this rainbow of light.

• 1:38:58Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:38:59Speaker 03

  Like, all of the, like, and I made the case in my second book that if Antonio V S Boas had been able to go back with the woman that he had sex with, it's basically the same story.

• 1:39:12Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:39:12Speaker 03

  So this Brazilian lawyer is telling a story that's identical to the Zulu legend that's been told for centuries, millennia. I don't know how far it goes back.

• 1:39:21Joe Rogan?

  How weird.

• 1:39:24Speaker 03

  But we need to look outside of just the mainstream view, which is finally happening. So I'm, I'm excited about that. I'm very grateful. I have a lot of gratitude about what's happening.

• 1:39:34Joe Rogan?

  But the question is-

• 1:39:35Speaker 03

  But we can go farther.

• 1:39:36Joe Rogan?

  Why did the mainstream view become what it is? And we know that that is because of a concerted, concentrated propaganda effort.

• 1:39:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, and a very effective one.

• 1:39:46Joe Rogan?

  I mean-

• 1:39:47Speaker 03

  They nailed it.

• 1:39:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, they had, there was no other media back then. They had complete control of newspapers, complete control of television stations.

• 1:39:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:39:56Joe Rogan?

  I mean, how many people, I mean, how much do we know now about various news anchors that were actually CIA agents? There's a fucking shit ton of them.

• 1:40:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, and even if they weren't, they were being force fed this stuff that they were happy to regurgitate.

• 1:40:08Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely, yeah. They just wanted to look good and have a suit and speak like an expert. Here we go.

• 1:40:13Speaker 03

  And if you don't toe the line, somebody else will.

• 1:40:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and you're living a great life. You drive a Mercedes, live in a nice house. Why would you fuck this up? Over a UFO story? Just tell your friends.

• 1:40:22Speaker 03

  Just tell everybody what you're supposed to tell them.

• 1:40:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's easy to get people to comply like that, especially when they're dependent upon, you know, whether it's a corporate entity like CNN or whether it's New York Times or whatever it is. It's, it's not hard to get people to comply.

• 1:40:36Speaker 03

  No, and you're right, since the internet, things have changed.

• 1:40:39Joe Rogan?

  Radically. Like, really radically.

• 1:40:42Speaker 03

  Radically, but I think there's a downside, too. We're, we've already kind of been moving toward a post-truth existence. Good lord, man, like, I'll scroll through videos on Twitter now, ninety percent of them are fake.

• 1:40:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, there's so much AI now.

• 1:40:57Speaker 03

  It's so ridiculous.

• 1:40:59Joe Rogan?

  It's so crazy.

• 1:41:00Speaker 03

  I make the unfortunate decision to go into the comments to see what percentage of people think it's real.

• 1:41:06Joe Rogan?

  Eighty.

• 1:41:07Speaker 03

  Mm-mm.

• 1:41:08Joe Rogan?

  Ninety?

• 1:41:08Speaker 03

  I would say at least ninety. It's insane, like, I just, I have, still have it on my phone. It's this stupid fucking video of a rabbit, like, nursing its little rabbit babies, and then one of them's a cat. So the mom cat comes in, picks the fucking baby cat up by the nose, like, they're magnetically attached. It doesn't even grab it, like, they're just, the baby kind of comes with it, and then walks out the back of the burrow. Like, there's no back to a rabbit burrow, you know, and everybody's like, oh, whoops, that cat made a mistake, it's drinking from the wrong species. People don't see it, they don't see that this is very obviously fake, and it's, it's not just for that, like, they're using it for propaganda, they're using it for this same type of thing that they've used forever.

• 1:41:50Speaker 03

  Oh, well, this UFO phenomenon's not real because AI made this video.

• 1:41:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's also the problem with, what percentage of people that are even commenting are actual people?

• 1:41:59Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:41:59Joe Rogan?

  There's a huge amount of bots that are communicating on all the social media platforms, a giant percentage of the comments are not real people.

• 1:42:07Speaker 03

  That's a really good point, yeah, no, you're right.

• 1:42:09Joe Rogan?

  So, they would comment on anything and just say, wow, that's amazing.

• 1:42:14Speaker 03

  But that also still feeds the perception that it's real.

• 1:42:15Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:42:16Speaker 03

  Because other people that maybe don't have great critical thinking skills or discernment, because, you know, they're a ninety-year-old grandma that doesn't know how to use a computer, she sees that, oh, it's cute.

• 1:42:25Joe Rogan?

  I think it erodes the consensus intelligence.

• 1:42:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:42:29Joe Rogan?

  Like, the, like, the, the overall level of intelligent discourse that a society puts out. You know, if you have a town square, which is like Twitter is our town square, right? If that town square is populated by fake people, like, enormous percentage populated by fake people. People that are just designed to say the most inflammatory, ridiculous things to get interaction and engagement and also to erode people's faith in other people and to make us argue with each other.

• 1:43:00Speaker 03

  Construct the other like you were saying at the beginning of this conversation, it fuels tribalism.

• 1:43:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:05Speaker 03

  It's really problematic.

• 1:43:06Joe Rogan?

  My, my hope is that eventually there'll be some way to accurately discern and it'll stop that stuff from happening. You know, that you'll be able to tell like very clearly whether or not it's an actual person. The problem is that if that does happen, it's a gateway to digital ID because you would have to lose your anonymity. Cause if, if you're a like anonymity is very important for whistleblowers. Like say if you work for a corporation, you find out that corporation is dumping stuff into a river. And it's all secret and it's illegal and you know that if you tell they're going to kill you, you know? And you're an executive at that corporation, your conscience is troubled. You can make a fake account, you could sign up through a VPN.

• 1:43:50Joe Rogan?

  You can make a fake account and you could post all this information that you know. And you could break a story and you don't face any consequences, you don't get killed. If you have digital ID, if we know who everybody is that's posting something and you make that same post, who knows what they do to you? Who knows what happens?

• 1:44:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's been happening. There's, there's been whistleblowers who have had mysterious deaths.

• 1:44:13Joe Rogan?

  All over the place.

• 1:44:15Speaker 03

  For a long time.

• 1:44:16Joe Rogan?

  All over the place.

• 1:44:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, it's.

• 1:44:20Joe Rogan?

  Didn't Gary Webb, didn't he shoot himself in the head twice?

• 1:44:23Speaker 03

  What's that the story? What's the one Tim Burchett always says, get shot and or you shoot yourself in the back of the head four times or something like that.

• 1:44:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's in reference to that. How did Gary Webb die?

• 1:44:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's but even if that's not true, there's a bunch of stories about whistleblowers who go missing.

• 1:44:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's so many examples.

• 1:44:46Joe Rogan?

  If you're inconvenient, you're gonna cost them billions of dollars and they can just get rid of you, they just get rid of you.

• 1:44:52Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44:53Joe Rogan?

  Whoever they are.

• 1:44:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, it all comes down to money and it has for a very long time.

• 1:44:57Speaker 00

  Someone was deciding if this was accurate. They found in a case where someone shot themselves in the head eight times.

• 1:45:02Speaker 03

  Oh. That's a lot.

• 1:45:04Speaker 00

  So, there's a couple of cases where it's happened.

• 1:45:05Joe Rogan?

  Boy, that's a commitment.

• 1:45:07Speaker 03

  I mean, I guess if it was like an airsoft gun or something.

• 1:45:12Joe Rogan?

  I don't think that killed him.

• 1:45:13Speaker 03

  That'd be a really inefficient way to kill yourself.

• 1:45:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the whole thing's crazy.

• 1:45:17Speaker 03

  Do you think it's even possible?

• 1:45:18Joe Rogan?

  With an airsoft gun?

• 1:45:19Speaker 03

  With an airsoft gun?

• 1:45:20Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, maybe possible.

• 1:45:22Speaker 03

  Like a lobotomy kind of, if you shot yourself up the nose eight times?

• 1:45:25Joe Rogan?

  Nah, it's not that fast.

• 1:45:25Speaker 03

  Nah, it's not, is it?

• 1:45:27Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it might eventually give you an infection.

• 1:45:30Speaker 03

  Oh, that's, see, so you could.

• 1:45:31Joe Rogan?

  I guess, if you got enough airsoft bullets in you.

• 1:45:35Speaker 03

  Just fills up your entire nasal cavity.

• 1:45:37Joe Rogan?

  And you never went to the doctor, maybe eventually you'd get an infection.

• 1:45:40Speaker 03

  I think somebody might intervene at that point.

• 1:45:42Joe Rogan?

  When I was, uh, living in LA, when I first moved there, a guy had killed himself accidentally on a set because he took a gun that was a blank gun and he shot himself in the head, like trying to be funny.

• 1:45:53Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:45:54Joe Rogan?

  And it killed him, because the force that comes out of the gun is still extremely powerful.

• 1:45:58Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:45:58Joe Rogan?

  And he put it to his temple and he literally caved his skull in.

• 1:46:02Speaker 03

  Ah, that sucks.

• 1:46:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:04Speaker 03

  That's rough.

• 1:46:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that was just an actor who just didn't know any better and he thought he was just gonna be funny. Yeah, so, shooting yourself in the head twice, highly unlikely.

• 1:46:14Speaker 03

  Eight times?

• 1:46:16Joe Rogan?

  But I guess you could shoot yourself in the head once and just really fuck it up, but be aware that you're still alive and be committed to doing it and then shoot yourself a second time. I guess it's possible.

• 1:46:25Speaker 03

  I mean, unless the pain response was like, "Yeah, it didn't feel good. I don't wanna do that again."

• 1:46:29Joe Rogan?

  Or maybe the pain response is so bad, you wanna do it again just to end the pain.

• 1:46:32Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a good point, yeah. Like, whoops, let's get this over with.

• 1:46:36Joe Rogan?

  I don't know, but our point, what we're getting at, is that for the longest time, there was no real outlet to get true information out other than books. And books are so easily maligned, you know, if someone has a kooky book, you're reading, you go, "Oh, that guy's nuts." That is a conspiracy theory. And then, of course, that term's popularized during the JFK assassination because of that very reason. There was a lot of people that doubted the official story and those people became conspiracy theorists. Have you looked into that much? Oh, yeah. I kind of thought you had. Who do you think did it? I think there was a lot of people. I think here's a mistake that people make. They say Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, or Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't involved, and he was a patsy.

• 1:47:18Joe Rogan?

  Lee Harvey Oswald shot a cop. There, there really, there's like very few people that disagree on that. I think it's Officer Tippett, I think that was his name, when he was on the run. So, Lee Harvey Oswald absolutely seems to be some sort of an intelligence asset in some way or another. Married a Russian woman, lived in Russia for a while, came back to the United States during the time of the whole, I mean, this is right after the Red Scare. The fact that this guy went to Russia, married a Russian woman, came back, and like, the whole thing's screwy. He could have been a patsy and involved too, right? Absolutely. I heard some theory once about like the driver turned around with some- Nah, nah, that's all horseshit. -gun, or, was there something about like a poisonous fish thing? Horseshit, all horseshit. That's why I was asking, because I don't know.

• 1:48:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's a lot of those, one of the best ways to make a conspiracy theory seem absolutely ridiculous is to add a bunch of really silly ones into the mix. And so that any conspiracy theory involving something that's not the official narrative. But there's just so many aspects of the Kennedy assassination, the back and to the left, the headshot, the shot in the neck from the front, the magic bullet, which is preposterous, is the most preposterous. There's a lot of them. There's a lot of these weird aspects to it. And there's also the fact that Kenny was very hated. Also the fact that, um, you know, it's in Dealey Plaza, which is like, why would you ever drive someone through there in a convertible that's the president?

• 1:48:45Joe Rogan?

  That's a very, you know, any president is, you know, we think of JFK was the most loved president, right, by half the country. That's how it always is, folks. There's always half the country that thinks you suck and half the country that loves you. That's how it was with Clinton. That's how it was with Obama. So it is with everybody. Yeah. No, we don't tend to agree on those things as an entire human population. There was a lot of people that were very happy when he- Died, including Dulles. So Dulles was fired by JFK and then was on the Warren Commission.

• 1:49:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:49:17Joe Rogan?

  And then investigating JFK's assassination, which is hilarious.

• 1:49:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:49:21Joe Rogan?

  It's kind of crazy. Richard Nixon, also in the Warren Commission. The Warren Commission, there's a great book on it. Uh, called Best Evidence by David Lifton. And he was, uh, an accountant that was hired to do something, uh, with the Warren Commission, some, something, some aspect of the Warren Commission. So he decides to read the whole thing. It's a huge amount of pages. I forget how many pages are in the Warren Commission report. I think it's at least nine hundred pages. So he reads the whole thing and after it, he comes to this conclusion, like there's so many inconsistencies, there's so many contradictions. There's the like this, this doesn't make any sense. Like they were trying to reach a conclusion.

• 1:50:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:01Joe Rogan?

  So many of the witnesses that saw the assassination died in very weird deaths.

• 1:50:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:50:06Joe Rogan?

  The statistical possibility or probability of all those people dying from murder, suicide, car accidents, you know? It's just too weird. It's too weird.

• 1:50:16Speaker 03

  What about the UFO connection? Like that's the one I hear.

• 1:50:19Joe Rogan?

  I don't know.

• 1:50:20Speaker 03

  Cause there are like CIA ties and I don't know. I, I don't know what's bullshit and what's not, you know, like.

• 1:50:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:28Speaker 03

  There was clearly, like, we had the technology for twenty years at that point.

• 1:50:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:33Speaker 03

  What, what does a president even know?

• 1:50:35Joe Rogan?

  I, I don't know what they know. I do, I don't know whether or not they would kill him for that. That doesn't make any sense. That doesn't make any sense. You know the Nixon story with, uh, Jackie Gleason?

• 1:50:46Speaker 03

  Uh, no, I don't think so.

• 1:50:47Joe Rogan?

  You don't know that story?

• 1:50:48Speaker 03

  Uh-uh.

• 1:50:49Joe Rogan?

  The story is that Jackie Gleason and Nixon were drinking one day and, uh, you know, they were friends and Nixon was like,

• 1:50:58Joe Rogan?

  I want to see a fucking UFO. They get in a plane and he took him to, was it Wright Patterson? Jamie, do you remember?

• 1:51:05Speaker 03

  I think it was somewhere in Florida. But I don't, they, I remember when we looked this up, they said there's, he went somewhere. I'll look it up.

• 1:51:13Joe Rogan?

  So anyway, supposedly sees this recovered craft and bodies that are in freezers. So Jackie Gleason, one thing's true about this, he became obsessed with UFOs. That is true.

• 1:51:25Speaker 03

  And it'd be hard not to after something like that.

• 1:51:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:29Speaker 03

  There's definitely a catalyst.

• 1:51:29Joe Rogan?

  A man, I mean, fucking dude, right now, someone took me, if Trump called me up, wanna see some shit? And all of a sudden, I'm standing in front of some craft that's made of this unknown alloy. And especially some of the weirder stories where you have a craft that's like 40 feet wide. You go inside of it, it's bigger than a football field.

• 1:51:48Speaker 03

  That's wild.

• 1:51:49Joe Rogan?

  So here it is. Nixon arranged for him to visit Homestead Air Force Base in Florida. Upon his arrival, armed guards took Gleason to a building at a remote location on the site there. Gleason, who harbored an intense interest in UFOs, saw the embalmed bodies of four alien beings, two feet long with small bald heads and big ears. He was told nothing about the circumstances of the recovery. He swore his wife to secrecy, but after the divorce, Beverly freely discussed the story. In the mid 80s, UFO, ufologist Larry Bryant sued the US government to get it to reveal its UFO secrets. He tried without success to subpoena Gleason. Wow, he wanted to subpoena Gleason. Yo, that's crazy.

• 1:52:29Speaker 03

  I mean, he could just plead the fifth the whole time.

• 1:52:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. I was drunk, I don't remember anything.

• 1:52:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:52:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, how would you know? But Gleason built a house in upstate New York.

• 1:52:39Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, I heard about that.

• 1:52:40Joe Rogan?

  That looks like a UFO.

• 1:52:41Speaker 03

  Right, isn't it for sale right now?

• 1:52:42Joe Rogan?

  It is right now, yeah. We thought about buying it.

• 1:52:44Speaker 03

  I did, I looked that up one time. I don't remember why, but it's, it's kinda, kinda cool.

• 1:52:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's kinda cool, but the problem is if we bought it, everybody would know that that's ours.

• 1:52:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, true.

• 1:52:54Joe Rogan?

  Like, oh, Joe Rogan's got the UFO house to, and then they'd visit and fuck up my vacation.

• 1:52:59Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 1:53:01Speaker 03

  That's always bound to happen. I remember.

• 1:53:03Joe Rogan?

  That's the house.

• 1:53:03Speaker 03

  Barry Gold.

• 1:53:04Joe Rogan?

  Look at the house. I mean, come on, man.

• 1:53:06Speaker 03

  That's pretty sweet.

• 1:53:07Joe Rogan?

  Fucking crazy.

• 1:53:08Speaker 03

  Something happened. He was, he was, there was a catalyst involved in his interest.

• 1:53:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, if you're friends with Nixon, and this is in the 1960s, and this, all this stuff is.

• 1:53:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I saw an interview with Barry Goldwater where he was talking about.

• 1:53:22Joe Rogan?

  Fucking dope house, by the way.

• 1:53:24Speaker 03

  Talking about asking, uh, asking some commander general about what's at right, Pat, and I guess he just cussed him out. Barry Goldwater, he was like, don't ever fucking ask me that again. Yeah.

• 1:53:34Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:53:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:34Joe Rogan?

  He cussed out Barry Goldwater?

• 1:53:37Speaker 03

  He was a, yeah, I don't think he was ever present, candidate for president, but. Yeah, no, they, there's people that don't want us to know. The, the big thing going around now is that Dick Cheney was the ringleader of all of this, the deep state, the UFO secrets, the.

• 1:53:53Speaker 03

  The gatekeepers.

• 1:53:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, he had to know.

• 1:53:56Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 1:53:57Joe Rogan?

  That guy had to know.

• 1:53:58Speaker 03

  Kissinger too, probably, like the legacy programs. These are legacy people.

• 1:54:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, someone has got to talk, right? But it's like, but at to what level? And the idea, here's, here's the really erroneous idea that a lot of people hold. People can't keep a secret. Of course they can. Of course they can.

• 1:54:17Speaker 03

  Especially when their life's been.

• 1:54:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, of course they can. Especially if, I mean, there are certain programs that if you disclose the existence of this program, it is considered treason. And they're allowed to execute you for that. So you have to take that into consideration.

• 1:54:33Speaker 03

  I would keep a secret if that was the case.

• 1:54:36Joe Rogan?

  Of course. Then you have to take into consideration the immense amount of money, and this is discussed really, very comprehensively in the age disclosure documentary. I think they did a great job of highlighting the whole problem with the misappropriation of funds. So someone had to lie to Congress. If they have these back engineering programs, if they've been spending as much as a trillion dollars over the course of X amount of years.

• 1:55:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, where's that?

• 1:55:00Joe Rogan?

  Where's that money and who lied and who, who benefited from it? What military contractors were allowed to have this stuff to back engineer it? What process has taken place to shield the American public from that? And what profits have they made from that?

• 1:55:19Joe Rogan?

  It made them like much more like anti-competition against other military contractors.

• 1:55:26Speaker 03

  Which is another reason to keep a secret too. It's not just you might get killed, but there's a lot of profit potential in this and we don't want our competitors to have that.

• 1:55:33Joe Rogan?

  Also, a lot of fraud, I'm sure.

• 1:55:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:55:36Joe Rogan?

  Like with any, no oversight at all and a shitload of money?

• 1:55:39Speaker 03

  Black money.

• 1:55:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 1:55:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's.

• 1:55:42Joe Rogan?

  There's not a chance in hell that there wasn't some money that went into people's pockets.

• 1:55:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, human nature takes over and people are like, well, I could just keep some of that.

• 1:55:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:49Speaker 03

  Nobody's watching the till.

• 1:55:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, look, we're finding that with things just like Black Lives Matter. It was massive fraud. Like, just like, just nonprofit organizations. Oh, yeah.

• 1:55:59Speaker 03

  Like, I don't, I don't want to start shitting on NGOs or anything, but that's a big reason why I don't give money to, I'll find, you know, smaller organizations doing thing on a local level, but.

• 1:56:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, local level stuff you can trust.

• 1:56:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. You get big enough, it's just, that happens.

• 1:56:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:16Speaker 03

  And of course, if you're talking trillions of dollars, black money that nobody's tracing, and I mean, that was one of David Grush's arguments too, is that these whistleblowers are exposing crimes, you know? Fraud, potential murder that happened to keep these secrets. So, yeah, it's a complex, it's a very nuanced situation that will, we will have to move past if we are going to have disclosure in some capacity, however that happens. I mean, amnesty's been talked about for some people.

• 1:56:46Joe Rogan?

  That was in the documentary. That was the road out of this, which totally makes sense to me. Like, what is really important? The fraud has already taken place. If people are prosecuted for the fraud, guess what? If we don't release it, they'll never be prosecuted for the fraud anyway.

• 1:56:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, and what's the alternative? We wait until they die and then talk about it? I would rather just give them amnesty now and then let them die without these secrets going to their deathbed with them.

• 1:57:09Joe Rogan?

  But just not only that, if they're misappropriating funds, they're not just doing it 30 years ago, they're doing it last week. So now the current people also have

• 1:57:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 1:57:16Joe Rogan?

  An incentive to not disclose.

• 1:57:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:57:19Joe Rogan?

  Unless you have mass amnesty to say, listen, let's just forget about all this stuff. Then the problem with that is all those people that are profiting off of it right now and also funneling money into whatever NGOs they have and and misappropriation of money and embezzlement.

• 1:57:35Speaker 03

  What do we do with that IP too? Like the intellectual property that say Northrop Grumman or whoever has Boeing, like, do we share that now? Do they have to give that up and spread it across the industry?

• 1:57:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's all weird, man. It's very weird because there's been a few inventions that came about after Roswell. That a lot of people say like, this does not make any sense.

• 1:57:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, fiber optics is one.

• 1:57:57Joe Rogan?

  Transistor is another one.

• 1:57:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:58:00Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of weirdness. People say, oh, there's a direct scientific research that shows how they made it. Yeah, but there's not. If you go into it, it's like there's a giant leap that gets made. That's real weird.

• 1:58:11Speaker 03

  I mean, I'll take more leaps, man. Like, honestly, these craft are being powered by something that's very, very energized, you know? And if we could use that to... I mean, I pay a lot in utilities bills.

• 1:58:27Speaker 03

  I was gonna talk about like climate change or some shit and then I made about myself and my utilities bills.

• 1:58:31Joe Rogan?

  You could have your own zero point energy generator in your backyard. Never have to worry about power again.

• 1:58:37Speaker 03

  Keep the heat at like 90, you know? Have as many Christmas lights as I want.

• 1:58:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, never worry about the grid. The grid doesn't exist anymore.

• 1:58:44Speaker 03

  Doesn't exist. I mean, imagine that from an infrastructure level. And there's so many implications.

• 1:58:50Joe Rogan?

  If it's real.

• 1:58:51Speaker 03

  If it's real.

• 1:58:52Joe Rogan?

  If you think it's real.

• 1:58:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:58:53Joe Rogan?

  You're convinced.

• 1:58:53Speaker 03

  I'm convinced it is, yeah. I mean, it makes sense. There's so much energy trapped within the space between, you know? Like, that's what it is. Even at zero degrees, it's still energized.

• 1:59:05Joe Rogan?

  If you can, try to explain the concept of zero point energy.

• 1:59:08Speaker 03

  Man, that's beyond my pay grade. Other than that, I know that it is infinitely times more energetic than what you get when you split an atom or fuse atoms together, the nuclear force. My understanding, again, very limited knowledge, is that...

• 1:59:27Speaker 03

  Even when you take a molecule, particle, whatever, and you freeze it down to zero degrees, there's still energy inside of that. And there's energy at a sub-quantum level that if we could tap into that, it would provide infinite energy. The downside is it would also make a bomb that is much, much more powerful than the biggest hydrogen bomb, because you're releasing that energy in a way that's irresponsible. There's this quote going around by E.O. Wilson, famed biologist on, I think I saw it on Twitter, that was like, "We have prehistoric emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technology."

• 2:00:06Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:00:06Speaker 03

  Basically saying we're fucked.

• 2:00:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:08Speaker 03

  Because we've got... We're like little kids playing with chainsaws, you know?

• 2:00:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:00:14Speaker 03

  But, but zero point-

• 2:00:15Joe Rogan?

  Or guns, little kids playing with guns.

• 2:00:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. But zero point's kind of that next thing. Like, when Einstein, E equals mc squared, you know, there's all this energy and mass, and if we, you know, split these atoms, combine these atoms, we can release that energy. Sweet, but hundreds of thousands of people died in Japan, you know?

• 2:00:34Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:00:34Speaker 03

  So what's, what's the flip side of zero point? Like, it would definitely unlock a lot of potential, but are, are we responsible enough as a species to handle that type of energy?

• 2:00:46Joe Rogan?

  Right, currently, no.

• 2:00:48Speaker 03

  E.O. Wilson says no, and I'm on board with anything he says.

• 2:00:50Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm on board with it. Just look at what's happening in Ukraine. Look at what's happening in Gaza. Look at what's happening.

• 2:00:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, Gaza is so fucking sad.

• 2:00:57Joe Rogan?

  Full-scale war, scary shit. It's happening right now in various parts of the world, where, you know, we're just-

• 2:01:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:04Joe Rogan?

  -blowing people to smithereens.

• 2:01:05Speaker 03

  And you know what? That's kind of an interesting argument about the, um, the whole time travel thing. You know, there's these genocides. There's genocide happening now in Gaza. It blows my mind that we can still have genocides and just not do anything about it. But like Pol Pot, you know, three, four million people killed. The Holocaust, Darfur. But, but these aliens don't seem to care about us. It was something that John Mack noticed. He wrote about it a lot. They're, they're really focused on the Earth. You know, they care about this planet. They don't necessarily care about us.

• 2:01:36Joe Rogan?

  As individuals.

• 2:01:37Speaker 03

  As a species. Well, clearly they care as a species, but they do kind of care as individuals. The people that get picked up are oftentimes, obviously, there's cases where this, this doesn't happen, but they're cared for. They're told, "No harm will come to you," you know? Barney Hill was told that. It's a common, commonly repeated thing. So they take care of people. They give us screen memories to try to hide what they did. They sometimes give people tours of the ship. They seemingly care about us as individuals, but not when we start murdering each other on a massive scale. They've never intervened in these things.

• 2:02:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:02:14Speaker 03

  However, they have demonstrated their ability and willingness to shut down nukes. They might intervene if we move to the point where we're not just destroying ourselves, but we're destroying the planet that they may also call home in the future. If they are future humans, that whole care for the planet, take care of the planet. They told the kids in Zimbabwe. They told the kids in Wales during this other incident. They tell these contactees all the time, take care of the planet, take care of the planet. But they don't seem to care about us. And it might actually benefit them if we don't screw up this planet, either through nuking ourselves or just all of the other things we do to it because we're kind of parasitic in a way.

• 2:02:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, also, if they are us in the future, we probably have to go through all this to realize the folly of our ways.

• 2:03:00Speaker 03

  That's a good point. Dark Knight of the Soul, kinda.

• 2:03:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, clearly, we're getting better. I mean, we're still horrible, but we're better today than we were during the Viking days. We're better today than we were during the time of Genghis Khan. We're better. We're more civilized. We're more peaceful. There's less war, even though there's still war. So it's a slow, gradual shift of consciousness that probably is going to be accelerated by technology, especially if there is some sort of a technology that connects us telepathically and allows people to read minds. One of the things that Elon famously said about his Neuralink, he's like, you're going to be able to talk without words.

• 2:03:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, I had a whole section in my first book about that. The question of whether it's a technology mediated brain-to-brain communication or if there's something about our consciousness that allows us to communicate telepathically without some sort of technology. And I kind of, I did that. My friend Jeff Crapel pointed this out. He's like, I see why you did that. You know, you're like, well, what if it is technology? And there's a lot of studies that have shown we can't communicate through some sort of computer medium. But so many people in contactee cases who are spoken to or can speak to the visitors telepathically don't have that. There's also all of the research of Dean Radin at Ions and all of his other studies that he's put out

• 2:04:22Speaker 03

  that show people have telepathic abilities with very, very strong P-values statistically showing that we have this ability. I think a lot of people have it and just don't realize. But it does seem like we're moving in that direction. Like you were talking about the evolution of consciousness. It seems like we're sort of moving to that, whether Neuralink has anything to do with it or any sort of computer-mediated brain-to-brain transmission. I think we're just becoming telepathic and unlocking these abilities that have always sort of lied dormant within us.

• 2:04:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I've often asked the question, is it one of two things? Is this a new emerging aspect of human consciousness? Or is this an aspect of human consciousness that exists before verbal speech? And then verbal speech, and then of course, the written word, video, all that stuff.

• 2:05:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:05:14Joe Rogan?

  It just became completely non-useful to us.

• 2:05:20Speaker 03

  It's like we lost it and we're trying to get it back.

• 2:05:22Joe Rogan?

  It atrophied.

• 2:05:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:05:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:23Speaker 03

  I mean, you had Kai Dickens on. The telepathy tapes were hugely impactful.

• 2:05:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:28Speaker 03

  And a lot of those episodes show that this is actually extremely common, you know? And it seems like that's kind of where we're going. I look at that as another indication that these are us in the future, that their main form of communication is telepathy. And we're already seemingly moving in that direction.

• 2:05:45Joe Rogan?

  What do you make of the tridactyl mummies in Peru?

• 2:05:50Speaker 03

  Can we pee first?

• 2:05:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:52Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:05:52Joe Rogan?

  I'll do that right now.

• 2:05:53Speaker 03

  Sweet.

• 2:05:53Joe Rogan?

  We'll be right back, folks. Go to Jay Anderson's X page. It's Project Unity.

• 2:06:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, I saw he's coming on soon.

• 2:06:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he, so Jay Anderson just released this and Jesse Michaels actually went down to Peru and actually saw those things and handled them in person, in person. And he said it was fucking surreal. He said they are real creatures. Whatever they were, it is a real thing. And they look exactly like an alien. He has a video that he just released, Jamie. I think it's a, a video that he's releasing, um, on, um,

• 2:06:32Joe Rogan?

  and that's it, right there. Uh, so scans reveal this ancient alien looking mummy has a baby inside of her. That's, well, that's one of them.

• 2:06:44Joe Rogan?

  So these things, like whatever this is, is, can we hit volumes so you can hear what he's saying?

• 2:06:51Speaker 06

  She has slightly smaller stature and slighter build than Maria, but shares the same natural mummification with skin covering parts of the body. Her skull is elongated with large eye orbits and cranial volume comparable to Maria's. Importantly, Montserrat CT scans revealed that she was carrying in her abdominal cavity, the team identified a developing fetal form being visible on the scans. A tiny tridactyl embryo with skeletal structure curled in a womb-like space. This confirms that Montserrat was pregnant with at least one advanced fetus. Montserrat also contains an astonishing array of metallic implants, at least 10 distinct metal implants embedded into her body.

• 2:07:35Speaker 06

  These include four small round implants in her skull, two on each side, several in her chest and thoracic area, and others along her arm and leg bones as per the CT images. They're described as very dense and made of rare metals, osmium and gold. Additionally, Montserrat's chest anatomy is peculiar. She has an expanded rib cage without a sternum, like the other tridactyls, and an interclavical bone, an extra bone at the shoulder girdle. Noted by researchers, her spine is continuous into the skull, again demonstrating this cranio-cervical canal.

• 2:08:08Joe Rogan?

  Look how crazy that is.

• 2:08:08Speaker 06

  Montserrat has been one of the most deeply analyzed specimens. High resolution, 128 slice CT scans were performed and a full 3D virtual autopsy was conducted. The scans confirmed Montserrat's pregnancy with tridactyl features.

• 2:08:24Joe Rogan?

  How strange is this? Like, what is that? And these are in Peru, the same place where you get the Nazca Lines, the same place where you have Saco Hymn, you have these incredible structures that defy logic, defy conventional construction methods.

• 2:08:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, and like, like the owl man, you know, the big petroglyph on the side of the hill that will only be appreciated from space?

• 2:08:52Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of weirdness. There's a lot of weirdness from Peru. Peru seems like a very extraordinary place. And at one point in time, um, well, also the, the ancient, uh, artistic depictions of these exact beings. There's these ancient tapestries and ancient art pieces that show these three fingered, three-toed beings. And this is all like a part of their folklore. And then you have these actual creatures, like, that thing is 1,400 years old, I think it is? So if, if that's, that's the carbon date on that mummy? So I think it's that old? There's one that's 1,200, I think the oldest one is like 1,400.

• 2:09:35Speaker 03

  That sounds right, yeah.

• 2:09:37Joe Rogan?

  Something like that. But like, whatever that is, like, there's not a chance in fucking hell that people back then had the ability to fake that. And that, with that depth, you see tendon structures, ligaments, you have a completely different skeletal structure, no sternum, different clavicle bones. It's fucking weird.

• 2:09:54Speaker 03

  Cranial facial anatomy.

• 2:09:55Joe Rogan?

  Three fingers, three toes, which is, by the way, exactly what Lazar described, I believe, as, or some people have described as like, the control, it might not be Lazar, the controls inside the crass that they have observed that had these three fingered things. Vargine, Brazil, those things had three fingers and three toes. So the question is like-

• 2:10:13Speaker 03

  And they saw footprints too, in that case, didn't they?

• 2:10:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, they, supposedly, one of the soldiers carried a, hurt an injured, whatever it is.

• 2:10:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, there were three women that saw it too, like in an alley or something.

• 2:10:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's the Moment of Contact documentary, very good, very good James Fox documentary.

• 2:10:31Speaker 03

  It is, I watched that with James Fox in a pre, before he released it, we were at the same conference.

• 2:10:37Joe Rogan?

  Crazy documentary.

• 2:10:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's really good.

• 2:10:39Joe Rogan?

  Um, but those things look exactly like that.

• 2:10:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, what you described, it'd be cool if they still had eyeballs, because they said they had red eyes.

• 2:10:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:10:49Speaker 03

  Daco, which would be kinda crazy.

• 2:10:50Joe Rogan?

  Whatever these things are, they're, they're, they are the same size and the same shape. And they're also, that thing, that tridactyl thing, what does it look like? It was exactly like gray. It's small, it has a big head, it has big eyes, it's very thin, thin body. Like, when you look at its body, when it's curled up in the fetal position, it's no muscle, very small.

• 2:11:10Speaker 03

  There's definitely, I mean, there's variation in, within the way these things are described. Unfortunately, until we have, like, you know, dude got to go with Nixon to see these things in liquid. That's like a wet dream of mine, man. I would love to go see these things and like, study them. As a biological anthropologist, that would be the holy grail for me.

• 2:11:30Joe Rogan?

  Do you have to, there's somewhere that you could go right now on earth, if you knew the right guy, he'd let you see that?

• 2:11:35Speaker 03

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 2:11:36Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:11:37Speaker 03

  I'm sure there's many, many examples of these things. I, I would argue in multiple places that I'm not allowed to go see, and it makes me mad.

• 2:11:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh. Um, but what is your take when you see these things?

• 2:11:50Speaker 03

  Right, so, I've always been outwardly critical of them.

• 2:11:56Speaker 03

  Except, I guess the question is which ones?

• 2:12:02Speaker 03

  And what do we mean by real? Like, these are obviously real. These are things that aren't a fairy tale. I mean, they make their way into the lore, so we do have to take that in the same way that these, you know, ancient stories about things that are very similar to the UFO phenomenon.

• 2:12:16Joe Rogan?

  But this is an actual, physical mummy.

• 2:12:18Speaker 03

  That's what I'm saying, that's what I'm saying. This isn't make believe this is a real thing. I have been highly critical of the little ones.

• 2:12:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, there's some fake ones.

• 2:12:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:12:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:29Speaker 03

  But when I first started talking about these, those were conventionally understood to be real too.

• 2:12:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 2:12:36Speaker 03

  I got a lot of shit for that. I actually retired from the mummy thing. I'm happy to come out of retirement for you, Joe Holden. But I retired from the mummy thing, because I was getting trolled so hard. So aggressively, I'm like, I'm out, I don't give a shit.

• 2:12:48Joe Rogan?

  By people that thought they were real.

• 2:12:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:12:50Joe Rogan?

  But they look fake. The difference between those-

• 2:12:52Speaker 03

  See, we all say that now. We weren't saying that even three or four years ago.

• 2:12:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I definitely was.

• 2:12:57Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, you look at them, it's very obvious, but a lot of people are like, no, no, these are so real.

• 2:13:02Joe Rogan?

  Those are the people that still believe in Bigfoot.

• 2:13:05Speaker 03

  And that's why I have to sort of approach this cautiously, because I, I will admit, scientists don't do this enough. I will admit, I haven't looked into those. So I don't want to form an opinion about them until I have. I have extensively looked into the small ones. I forget what they're called. They have cute little names and they're little dolls. They're made out of animal bones, human bones, uh, backward llama skulls. They're put together. I, I've been looking at these long enough that I remember when they were held together by pieces of wire and metal. Like, they didn't even try to really hide that. You x-ray them, look at, oh, Jesus Christ, you know, but, but then we moved away from that to like, oh, they're using better materials to hide the fact that they're sticking these together as little dolls.

• 2:13:49Speaker 03

  And now, fortunately, we've at least moved past,

• 2:13:55Speaker 03

  to the point where most people are just focusing on these big ones, uh, with the fingers and the toes. And the elongated skulls. Again, I don't want to speak to those because I haven't looked into it enough. I don't have an informed opinion. But the little dolls, one thing that, that concerns me that I think is a red flag, is that the little dolls that are now conventionally understood to be fake, have the same diatomaceous earth characteristics as these. And there's also, I, I think if they really want to prove these are real, do more to highlight the provenience of them. In archaeology, the way that we understand the way things are related is by doing a massive, as I've mentioned earlier, very boring,

• 2:14:38Speaker 03

  survey of how things are located in three dimensional space and over time.

• 2:14:43Joe Rogan?

  I think there's a problem with that, is that some of these people have lied about where they got them because they're essentially grave robbing.

• 2:14:48Speaker 03

  Grave robbing, exactly. And that's a big problem, and an ethical issue that needs to be addressed too. But, so like, as an example, the Rising Star Cave, Homo naledi. They did, you know, Lee Berger, who's actually, I guess, my, um- My academic brother, because we had the same PhD advisor. He was at Ohio State when he was my advisor and he was at Johannesburg University of West Rogers End. In Johannesburg for him. But this Rising Star Cave, very meticulously, hard to get to, you know, really hard. They had, he had to lose like 50 pounds to even get down in here to see his own site. But they map it out, they study where everything is, where it comes from, and they publicly release that information.

• 2:15:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, like this is extremely hard to get into, but we have a very deep knowledge of the provenance of all of the artifacts and the features and the remains at this site. We're not getting that with these mummies. And that, that troubles me with the issue of the Diatomaceous Earth being painted on. And it kind of makes it seem like they did these slits in the eyes on purpose.

• 2:15:54Joe Rogan?

  To the mummies?

• 2:15:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, doesn't it seem like they kind of went like this with like a pen or something?

• 2:15:58Joe Rogan?

  Let me see it again, can I see some images of them?

• 2:16:01Speaker 03

  Triangles?

• 2:16:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, the bigger ones.

• 2:16:03Joe Rogan?

  I never saw that. It didn't seem like that to me. It seemed like.

• 2:16:07Speaker 03

  There's a little slit right there.

• 2:16:08Joe Rogan?

  It's their eyelids closed.

• 2:16:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, but they wouldn't have eyelids, would they?

• 2:16:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, how do we know that?

• 2:16:13Speaker 03

  I mean, you take off the Diatomaceous Earth and you see, I guess.

• 2:16:16Joe Rogan?

  Right, but why would we think they don't have eyelids?

• 2:16:18Speaker 03

  Oh, no, I'm saying that maybe they do when they were alive.

• 2:16:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, we see grays or what, you know, people describe as grays, but these seem a little bit different than what people describe as grays. It seems like.

• 2:16:29Speaker 03

  There's definitely intentional cranial modification. They have all the telltale signs of, yeah. So I, actually, one of my questions on my general exams.

• 2:16:38Joe Rogan?

  It's not possible that they have a totally different designed skull?

• 2:16:41Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, if they are some sort of extraterrestrial, absolutely. But I'm saying like when, and then this happens all over the world and it happened in that region of Peru too, that they were manipulating children's skulls, the Maya did.

• 2:16:52Joe Rogan?

  Unique fingerprints, look at that.

• 2:16:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, like I said, I don't have an opinion about these.

• 2:16:58Joe Rogan?

  But here's the question about the modification of skulls. Were they modifying skulls to try to emulate these people, or these things? That's the question.

• 2:17:06Speaker 03

  That's one of the actual scientific explanations for it. There's this paper by Girtzen and Girtzen from 1995, where they interviewed people, said, "Why are you doing this?" Because they were still doing it long enough into modern times that we could ask them, we could interview them. And one of the reasons is because the gods instructed them to do this. Who are the gods? You know, again, this comes back to that. And what is the end result of this intentional cranial modification? Is that they have the larger, more gray alien-type skull. So, yeah, I would absolutely agree that that's probably a part of it.

• 2:17:43Joe Rogan?

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• 2:18:28Joe Rogan?

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• 2:19:46Speaker 03

  I don't have an opinion about the big ones. The little ones pissed me off and then everybody pissed me off more when I told them they were bullshit.

• 2:19:53Joe Rogan?

  We should show people of images of the little ones. Cause they do look so fake.

• 2:19:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, and they brought these out at that, you know, Mexican Congress.

• 2:20:02Joe Rogan?

  And the guy who brought it out had been hoaxing with other things, right? Didn't he have a history? Look at the fucking, she's got a little dress on.

• 2:20:10Speaker 03

  And these are an extreme version. There's some other ones that...

• 2:20:13Joe Rogan?

  Look a little better.

• 2:20:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:15Joe Rogan?

  But they do look fake. When I look at that, I'm not interested in that.

• 2:20:18Speaker 03

  Exactly. And that's what I was calling out back, you know, five years.

• 2:20:22Joe Rogan?

  Go back down a little bit, Jamie. Below the tridactyl till you get to, that one right there, like the, the one next to your cursor. To the right, yeah. That looks so rigid and stiff and fake.

• 2:20:33Speaker 03

  That's one of them.

• 2:20:34Joe Rogan?

  Why is it so straight and flat? Like, that doesn't make any sense. Why is its shoulders built like, that looks fake as fuck. That looks like a doll. But the tridactyls, now click an image on one of the tridactyls.

• 2:20:46Speaker 03

  I mean, these were called tridactyls too. That's why I was...

• 2:20:49Joe Rogan?

  Right, but look at that thing. That's weird.

• 2:20:51Speaker 03

  That has an anatomy that's much more consistent with a living thing. One of the criticisms was that these things couldn't move, like that little doll with the straight rib cage. Like the, the legs, which we can identify as specific animals, they're like flipped around, they're just stuck together. Like, these things couldn't walk. There's a form follows function aspect of these that just doesn't make any sense. And the list goes on. I actually, in that crypto terrestrial paper where we broke in and ate all the mushrooms, I actually published a critique of these things in that paper.

• 2:21:21Speaker 03

  But just talking about these little ones.

• 2:21:23Joe Rogan?

  I think those little ones were people trying to make copies of those things. Because they were probably selling them to wealthy investors or wealthy, you know, enthusiasts.

• 2:21:34Joe Rogan?

  Because like if one of those things were for sale and some guy from Saudi Arabia was like, "I want one in my home." And you know, he gave them a hundred million dollars, like for sure that thing would vanish.

• 2:21:44Speaker 03

  And then everybody's gonna find out and start making more.

• 2:21:48Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, of course. And that's where you make the little stupid fake ones.

• 2:21:52Speaker 03

  And unfortunately, that did lead to grave robbing.

• 2:21:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:55Speaker 03

  Which is a crime and really sad. We shouldn't destitute graves.

• 2:22:00Joe Rogan?

  For sure. But there's also such a small amount of excavation that it makes you ponder, like, how many of these are there right now that we have not discovered? Like, is it possible that this is one of many that are out there in Peru right now? Where you can't find them. And also, why Peru? And why the Nazca Lines? The Nazca Lines are absolutely fascinating. It's artwork that you can only see from the sky. Like, what motivation do people a thousand plus years ago at least have to make artwork that you can only see from the sky?

• 2:22:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. And especially if you, I mean, the obvious thing would be that they're trying to get these advanced beings that make them gum, uh, come down from the sky and like interact with them again. You know, like, who wouldn't? A lot of contactees are really upset about what happens. Willie Strieber is a great example. This goes for a lot of people, but he felt violated. He felt raped the first time. And then over time, he missed them and wanted them to come back. And that's what we find over and over. One of the best resources currently is the Dr. Edgar Mitchell Free study that interviewed thousands of contactees and abductees. And there's these common themes across these different cases.

• 2:23:15Speaker 03

  And one of them is that people, eighty-five percent of people who interacted with a more human-like entity, enjoy their experience. And that's another thing that we have to combat with the stigma and this forced shame that comes with talking about this. And what has happened in TV and movies over the years is that we have this sense that abductions are horrifying and everyone's picked up and probed and hurt. And that does happen, but most people, based on what contactees actually say... It was a benign or enjoyable experience.

• 2:23:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, they're probably terrified because it's so strange. It probably freaks you out.

• 2:23:51Speaker 03

  It's the ontological shock aspect.

• 2:23:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it has to be beyond.

• 2:23:54Speaker 03

  What they also found is that with repeated contact, once that ontological shock goes away, they're like, whoa, that was kind of cool, actually. I wish I could have more of that.

• 2:24:01Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense.

• 2:24:02Speaker 03

  And then people come to enjoy it, you know?

• 2:24:05Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense. You know, I talked about this on Jesse Michael Show and I talked about it here. I had a very strange dream.

• 2:24:11Speaker 03

  That was a great interview, by the way.

• 2:24:12Joe Rogan?

  Thank you.

• 2:24:12Speaker 03

  It was cool.

• 2:24:12Joe Rogan?

  I love Jesse. He's awesome.

• 2:24:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's awesome.

• 2:24:14Joe Rogan?

  And he's the best.

• 2:24:15Speaker 03

  Can we talk about your dream too?

• 2:24:17Joe Rogan?

  That's what I was just gonna talk about.

• 2:24:18Speaker 03

  Oh, no shit?

• 2:24:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's why I said I talked about it on Jesse and I talked about it here. That dream was the most realistic dream I've ever had in my life. It is a problem and that dream is a couple of months ago now. And I think any recounting of that dream is essentially me recounting my recounting of the dream. It gets weird. But what I do remember was it was the most vivid dream I have ever had in my life. And that I could not go back to sleep, which is really rare. I am a good sleeper. I'm always go, go, go. And by the time it's time to go to bed, I fucking crash. I'm easy to... So for me to not be able to go back to sleep was so strange.

• 2:24:58Joe Rogan?

  I mean, wide awake, just lying in bed, I mean, fully awake for an hour and waiting for it to dissipate. And I'm like, this isn't going away. I'm just gonna go work out. So I just went to the gym and just tried to like, think about like, what just happened? Why was that so real? One of the things about it was they were shocking me and then laughing. They were trying to relax me. They were trying to get me to, at least my perception of it in the dream, was they were trying to get me to calm down from the shock of interacting with these things that aren't human. They were human-like.

• 2:25:40Joe Rogan?

  They almost seemed like their skin coloration was like us, but like, maybe a little more tan? Like a little more, not tan, but like a yellow? Yeah, more yellow than tan. And they had, it looked like clothing, but the clothing was the same color as her skin. But the clothing, the clothing wasn't distinctive. It was like, almost like a rash guard that they were wearing, and they were very slender. And, uh.

• 2:26:07Speaker 03

  What's a rash guard?

• 2:26:08Joe Rogan?

  A rash guard is like what surfers wear. You know, like they wear, it's like, um, a stretchy material that's skin tight. It goes on your body and it keeps you from getting scratched up by stuff.

• 2:26:20Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 2:26:21Joe Rogan?

  Keeps you from getting rashes, you know, you wear it on your legs. You ever see surfers do it? Jiu Jitsu guys wear it when they roll.

• 2:26:26Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:26:26Joe Rogan?

  We wear rash guards. Um, so it's, show them what a rash guard looks like.

• 2:26:30Speaker 03

  And that's, they had a whole suit of that?

• 2:26:33Joe Rogan?

  Um, that's what it looks like.

• 2:26:35Speaker 03

  Oh, okay, yeah, right on.

• 2:26:36Joe Rogan?

  So that's a jacked guy with a rash guard on.

• 2:26:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:26:38Joe Rogan?

  These things were not jacked and there was no creases. There was no, there was no lines that indicated that it was cloth, but I think.

• 2:26:44Speaker 03

  They had a humanoid form, like arms, legs, head, face.

• 2:26:47Joe Rogan?

  Very thin, very thin, like Michael Jackson like, like super slender, like genderless.

• 2:26:51Speaker 03

  Early or late Michael Jackson?

• 2:26:52Joe Rogan?

  Genderless Michael Jackson, like the old days, when he, you know.

• 2:26:55Speaker 03

  Toward the end.

• 2:26:56Joe Rogan?

  Just really thin.

• 2:26:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:26:57Joe Rogan?

  Like really thin and I, I had no sense of what, they felt like men to me. Uh, maybe it was because of the way they were joking with, they were like, ah, and they're like, heh, heh, heh. Just joking around and I was like.

• 2:27:10Speaker 03

  Which is a very male thing. You wouldn't expect a nurturing female.

• 2:27:14Joe Rogan?

  Maybe a fun chick.

• 2:27:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:27:15Joe Rogan?

  Like boo, uh, but whatever it was, they were talking to me without talking to me. And there was some sort of communication that I was trying to absorb where they were telling me to relax and.

• 2:27:28Speaker 03

  Telepathically or were they moving their mouth?

• 2:27:30Joe Rogan?

  No, they weren't moving their mouth, but they were able to smile at me, which is what they did when they, but I don't remember, I don't even really remember teeth. I just remember it being so weird, so weird that them, them scaring me and to go, ah, just fucking around. Like was like, I'm like, I got it. I was like, okay, I get it. You want me to calm down? And then they were telling me, just relax, just relax and try to take this in. And it didn't last for very long, I don't think. Dreams are hard to decipher.

• 2:27:59Speaker 03

  But after that, like when they were saying, take this in, were they talking about being there in the environment or were they communicating something?

• 2:28:05Joe Rogan?

  I got the distinct impression that this was a first meeting. That's what it felt like.

• 2:28:11Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:28:12Joe Rogan?

  Like, maybe we'll see you again.

• 2:28:13Speaker 03

  Breaking down some barriers and.

• 2:28:15Joe Rogan?

  But I want to let you know that, like, if you wanted to introduce someone to a life form from somewhere else. And you wanted them to have prolonged exposure to it. I would imagine you'd want to do it briefly and shockingly. Where it felt really weird. And then at the end of it, they're not even sure if it really happened at all.

• 2:28:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:28:32Joe Rogan?

  And then slowly. Over a long period of time. When the person gets to adapt and they make a decision.

• 2:28:39Speaker 03

  I mean, it's just like what we were talking about with the ontological shock. Get past that.

• 2:28:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:43Speaker 03

  And then you can move on with whatever is.

• 2:28:45Joe Rogan?

  Cause it was very brief. Very, very shocking and very brief.

• 2:28:49Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, was it though? Because when, when you're in a dream state. Time and space kind of get manipulated anyway. Isn't it possible that you are actually interacting for a longer time? Or do you mean just from like start? Start to finish was like, here we are. I'm gonna fuck with you for a little bit. And then it's over.

• 2:29:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's what it felt like when I woke up. So when I woke up, it felt like it happened so quickly. And then it was over. But I don't know, you know, I don't know. I mean, I was asleep for, it was like three in the morning. So I was probably asleep for. I probably went to bed at like 11, something like that. So I wasn't asleep for very long. Maybe I went to bed a little later. I don't remember. But. What I do remember was the shock of it. Was, it was different than any other dream I'd ever had. Where it was like. Like this is, this is a real thing. This, and it. I was in a corridor. And the corridor was weirdly lit. Like not lit. In any way, like, oh, there's a light and the light is casting light. It was like the, it was weird.

• 2:29:49Speaker 03

  Walls and ceilings.

• 2:29:50Joe Rogan?

  But it was, it felt. Not normal. It felt like some completely different way of lighting things.

• 2:29:58Speaker 03

  I mean, I will mention just from. Doing a bunch of research on this, that one of the most commonly described things about. People being in UFOs is the light. They described the light emanating from the walls, the ceiling everywhere without like a point of light. Did it feel like that?

• 2:30:15Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But it almost.

• 2:30:18Speaker 03

  Was there a curvature to the hallway at all?

• 2:30:20Joe Rogan?

  There was. It almost had like an organic aspect to it. It was.

• 2:30:23Speaker 03

  People say that about UFOs too.

• 2:30:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 2:30:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. That almost seems like a living entity unto itself.

• 2:30:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, I mean, organic, like, almost like I was in a cave or something like that. It was a part of earth. It was weird. It was really weird. And it was really vivid. Like, the beings were very vivid. I can't remember how many of them there were.

• 2:30:44Speaker 03

  Well, I don't think you should.

• 2:30:45Joe Rogan?

  I think there was three or four.

• 2:30:47Speaker 03

  I don't think you should write it off as just a dream. Like, I mean.

• 2:30:51Joe Rogan?

  Well, most likely it was just a dream, right?

• 2:30:53Speaker 03

  But what is, but what is just a dream?

• 2:30:54Joe Rogan?

  That's the question. That's where it gets weird.

• 2:30:56Speaker 03

  Like, I have come to think that that is almost the baseline real reality more than this.

• 2:31:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 2:31:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, sorry. That's kind of why I wanted to talk about it.

• 2:31:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you just cracked me. Well, maybe.

• 2:31:12Speaker 03

  So I had a really insane experience in 2022 that forced me to start thinking about what this is. What this physical reality is, because I was shown.

• 2:31:24Joe Rogan?

  What was 2022?

• 2:31:26Speaker 03

  I call it a mini abduction. I was taken up, I was at a UFO conference, actually the same one where I was watching that with James Fox before it came out. The Virginia case. So I was taken up to this room that no one was in. I was taken out on the balcony. I wasn't allowed to leave.

• 2:31:42Joe Rogan?

  By who?

• 2:31:43Speaker 03

  A woman who I knew, but loosely. Basically, I was downstairs. She saw, or they saw through her, because this gets really weird, that I was out of money. I was trying to get a beer at the bar for like 12 bucks or whatever they charge you with these things. It was a Halloween dance party. This was October 14th, 2022. I was out of money. She comes up and says, hey, I have a key to the VIP room. We had just come down from there, where they hosted a meet and greet with the speakers. I was one of the speakers. So we went up there to get beers, stuff in my pockets. We're gonna bring some to our friends, so they didn't have to pay $12 for a beer. And then she's like, well, you can't go. My friend Eric wants to talk to you. I was like, who's Eric? Don't worry, you'll like him. Just kept saying that over and over. Don't worry, you'll like him. You'll like him.

• 2:32:28Speaker 03

  So at some point, we end up on the balcony, and I'm just sitting there. I give up. I'm like, fine, I guess I'm just waiting for this Eric guy, whoever the hell that is. So eventually Eric comes in, pulls his chair up right into me, like his knee is in my dick. Like, straight up, right here, I start to get that, I'm very much fight, and the fight or flight thing. And I'm like, you know, like, who the fuck's this guy? Total stranger, never seen him in my life. And his face is right here. He says, "I sense that you're angry about this, but I need to be this close for this to work." And then it just all went away. Whoa. Perfectly fine. And they tell me something that was that same thing that they did to you in that dream.

• 2:33:12Speaker 03

  Something that they knew would shock me and make me pay attention. So about two weeks before this, I'd been washing dishes, and I just decided I wanted to quit all of this. I was sick of doing TV shoots and podcasts, I just, I was exhausted, want to be home with my family. That's it, that was just a thought. Just while you were washing dishes? Washing dishes, my wife's right behind me, didn't tell her or anything. Very next thing he says is, "We know you've been thinking about quitting lately, and we'd really prefer you not do that yet." Complete stranger. I'd never seen this guy in my life. And he knows a thought in my head. But you had while washing dishes? From two weeks ago. Privately? And I, I was just like, how could you possibly know that? And they said, I'm gonna use they, because they used they.

• 2:33:55Speaker 03

  I wasn't talking to this guy, I was talking through some sort of entity or entities through him. And they said, "Once you know who we are, you'll know how we know that." And I'd never had a telepathic moment in my life, but I thought, future humans, that's all I could come up with, because like, this is what I'm doing. They didn't answer the question, but they did say, "So you know how we did that?" And I just go, uh huh, like, it doesn't fucking answer the question. But in that moment, it placated me enough to move on. And there was a number of things that transpired, we're out on this balcony. I'm in shock. I'm like, what the hell is going on here? How does this complete stranger know my thoughts?

• 2:34:38Speaker 03

  The conversation evolved, I was allowed to ask questions, they're like, "We know you're frustrated, we know you're upset with this, we'd really like you to keep going, is there anything you need? Is there anything we can help with?" I was like, "No, I'm quite happy in general, just exhausted, don't want to do this anymore." Yeah, we get that, we get that, we get that. And then I was allowed to ask questions. I asked three different questions. And people started to come back to this room because the party was wrapping up downstairs and they were starting to come back to the VIP room where all the free booze was. So that makes sense. And we're out on this balcony, these three women come out at one point. And this man, uh, who now is like, just right here, like eyes right here.

• 2:35:19Speaker 03

  I can't move anymore. Like I lost the ability to turn my head. I'm just like laser focused. Said, can you close the door behind you? That was it. And these three women turned in perfect unison, walked back and closed the door. Nobody came out the rest of the time we were out there. Eventually got to the point where they're like, we came here because we need to put three things in your brain for some future time or times. I forget which they said. Do we have your permission to do that? And over the course of this interaction, I started to remember them. And I started to feel like a little bitch about complaining about being tired, traveling, hotels, flights, you know? And I was like, oh, that's right. I know you. I know who you are. Not that guy. I'd never seen him in my life.

• 2:36:04Speaker 03

  But I know you and there's a familiarity. And this was like the breaking down of me. To be able to get past that, to do the things that needed to be done. They told me what would happen. They said that I would continue looking, my eyes would be open, but this darkness would come from top to bottom. And they would put things in my brain and I would see it coming in, but I wouldn't have access to it once they were done. Do you agree? They're very polite, extremely polite. Free will was conserved. Do you agree to this? Are you okay with this? And again, at that point, I remembered them. I recognized them. I was like, yes, absolutely. I agree to this. That's exactly what happened. Eyes went dark, still wide open. Eyes went dark and I see this massive, fast stream of information just going straight into my brain.

• 2:36:49Speaker 03

  It was exhausting. It didn't hurt, but it was like really overwhelming. I have no idea how long they were doing this.

• 2:36:55Joe Rogan?

  You said you see it pulling into your brain?

• 2:36:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I could see. It was like, I, I could see. I don't, I don't remember it, but I could see and understand the moments. Because, and it wasn't just me. Like at one point, this conversation switched from being vocal to telepathic. Like we just started communicating telepathically. It was so seamless that I didn't even really notice it happen. And eventually I'm like, wait, we're not moving our mouths. We're just talking. With our brains. But the woman who brought me up there in the first place was standing on my left with her hand on my shoulder. She would occasionally go, did you get that? Did you see that? That was important. Did you get that? So she was watching it too and saw it coming in as it was coming through this individual in front of me. And I could see it at that moment. I'd be like, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh. Like I understood it.

• 2:37:44Speaker 03

  It all comes in. I have no idea how long I was in that mesmerized state. But after they finished, that entire room had five times more people in it. There was like probably 20 people in this room. All looking at us like, what the fuck is happening to masters out there? You know, like what is going on? They lifted me out of this. Sight returned from bottom to top, the opposite of what happened before. And I stand up, turn, walk through this room. It felt like my head was a bowling ball, like I could barely even lift my head. And this woman, I think one of the ones that came out when we were on the balcony. Put her hand on my shoulder, said, are you okay? I was just like, uh huh, uh huh. Walked past her.

• 2:38:27Speaker 03

  Fortunately, I was on that same floor, on the fourth floor of this hotel. Walked down, lay back on the bed with my feet still on the floor, all my clothes on, and just slept in that position for about 13 hours.

• 2:38:38Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:38:39Speaker 03

  Didn't wake up at all. And when I woke up, I started crying uncontrollably. Like my, my, I could not stop crying. I wasn't sad. I wasn't scared. I had a memory of what happened the night before, but it was kind of fuzzy. And then as it started to come back more and more and more. Uh, I started to be like, oh shit, like. That, that was real, you know? My first thought was like, oh, that, that wasn't real. And then I was allowed to remember all of it. Everything before they put me in that state is like crystal clear in my mind. And I wrote it all down.

• 2:39:12Speaker 03

  Not long after that, just to make sure I had. You know, so, so it wasn't me recounting me recounting like you were saying. So there was actually like a written transcript of how everything happened.

• 2:39:22Joe Rogan?

  I should have probably done that. I should have probably done that, but I know that my recollection of it is pretty accurate. My recollection, my memory, and I know that it was very brief. Like, would the encounter seem very brief? It might have gone longer than I think it did.

• 2:39:38Speaker 03

  Well, they might have done the same thing to you, that's why I mention it. They might have done the same thing where you weren't necessarily allowed to remember the things that were done. Like, they told me that we're gonna do this, are you okay with it, and then missing time. I have no idea how long they were doing that. And then in a dream state, like, it could have been, dreams often skew time regardless. But maybe if, let's just say hypothetically, you were on a craft. They were breaking you down in the same way they did me, to try to get you, whether now or in the future, like you said. It might have been an initial encounter where there's something more gonna happen later. But maybe there was more to it that they just didn't let you have conscious memories of. Like, they told me I wouldn't remember what they put in my brain, and I don't.

• 2:40:21Speaker 03

  Which is, just a second, this is what blows my mind, man, this is fucking insane. It's my brain.

• 2:40:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:40:26Speaker 03

  They put things in there. The ability that they can even do that in the first place is nuts. But I don't have access to it.

• 2:40:35Speaker 03

  It's really wild.

• 2:40:37Joe Rogan?

  How do you know it's in there, then?

• 2:40:38Speaker 03

  I watched it come in. I know it went in, and they told me that it was gonna come in, and I saw it happen. But then, once it's in...

• 2:40:46Joe Rogan?

  Right, but does that make any sense? Like, think about it, if they're giving you information. What is the point in giving someone information that they can't access?

• 2:40:53Speaker 03

  Well, that's what they said, though, they said, "For time or times in the future." It's time released, it's time stamped. At some point, whatever that was that they thought was so damn important to many abduct me at this conference, fuck with me for about five months afterwards, is going to come out at some point.

• 2:41:08Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever considered the possibility someone dropped acid into your beer?

• 2:41:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have.

• 2:41:14Joe Rogan?

  Because that would be such a cruel thing to do to someone at a UFO conference.

• 2:41:18Speaker 03

  Problem is...

• 2:41:19Joe Rogan?

  And then fuck with them and say, "Sit down, look in my eyes, I'm gonna give you information now." You're like, "Oh my god, it's coming, information's coming."

• 2:41:25Speaker 03

  It is, problem is, I've done acid, uh, over 200 times, so I know exactly what that's like.

• 2:41:30Joe Rogan?

  Maybe it was a flashback. That's what they say. That was the thing they always said. I never heard of one fucking person getting a flashback, by the way.

• 2:41:36Speaker 03

  I know. I feel robbed, dude. Like, I was totally crack our back and we're gonna get the-

• 2:41:40Joe Rogan?

  What if you get a flashback when you're driving your car, man, and you fucking run into a bus full of kids?

• 2:41:45Speaker 03

  It's like how they told us everybody's gonna give us free drugs on the playground.

• 2:41:49Joe Rogan?

  Nope.

• 2:41:49Speaker 03

  Nobody ever gave me free drugs.

• 2:41:50Joe Rogan?

  No drugs.

• 2:41:51Speaker 03

  No, it was not. I had actually only had two beers the entire night. I was completely sober.

• 2:41:56Joe Rogan?

  So it was some kind of experience that was very anomalous.

• 2:42:00Speaker 03

  Extremely, yeah. So here's another aspect of it. They knew my future. They knew everything about me. They knew my thoughts. That's how they broke me down. And they even knew where I was gonna be the next day. They saw that it fucked me up and I was not doing well. Like, I wasn't crying because I was sad or scared or anything. It was just a physiological response to whatever they did. I'm walking down through the main corridor to give a book to a friend of mine, John Dover, Navajo Ranger, and that same guy comes around the corner, comes down, puts his hand on my shoulder, says, "Are you okay?" I was not okay. But I go, "Uh-huh." And they fixed me somehow. His touch on my shoulder released all of the whatever was messing me up.

• 2:42:44Speaker 03

  They knew where I would be at that exact moment for him to come there. He wasn't part of this conference. He had nothing to do with this. He was used as some sort of vessel or some sort of medium for this end. Whatever it means, I don't know, because the things haven't come out of my brain yet, but they are time stamped for the future.

• 2:43:01Joe Rogan?

  I completely believe you.

• 2:43:02Speaker 03

  It's not a belief. It's not a belief. They did it in a way where other people were involved, so I didn't even get to pretend.

• 2:43:10Joe Rogan?

  No, what I'm saying, what I'm saying is, I'm saying I believe your story from you. I have no information on it, obviously, other than you telling me.

• 2:43:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:43:18Joe Rogan?

  I believe you. It sounds like this is a real experience, but- Most people hearing something like this will automatically go, get the fuck out of here.

• 2:43:28Speaker 03

  And they did.

• 2:43:29Joe Rogan?

  But I want those people to imagine what it would be like if that happened to you. For me, it's easy because mine was in a dream and I'll tell you it's a dream. I think it was a dream. It was the most vivid dream I've ever had, but it was a dream. It was really weird. I couldn't shake it. It really freaked me out. I had to talk about it the moment I got on a podcast next. I was like, this is something that I have to bring up right away because it's just.

• 2:43:52Speaker 03

  And thank you for doing that, by the way. It takes bravery to talk about this shit.

• 2:43:55Joe Rogan?

  But I was talking to Brett Weinstein, evolutionary biologist. Like, it's not the topic to talk about, but I'm like, I have to tell you this because it was one of the weirdest things that I've experienced a lot of weird shit. I've had a weird life. That was the weirdest. It was, it was weird.

• 2:44:10Speaker 03

  It took me a year to talk about this. I, I went down.

• 2:44:15Joe Rogan?

  Let me finish here.

• 2:44:15Speaker 03

  Oh, sorry, I didn't know you were.

• 2:44:16Joe Rogan?

  This is what I, for people that are very skeptical.

• 2:44:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:44:20Joe Rogan?

  I want you to imagine yourself in a position where something like this happens to you. You're a regular guy. You're a mechanic for Chevrolet, whatever you are, and this thing happens to you. And what do you do now? What do you do with this? And who the fuck is going to believe you? You wouldn't have believed you. So why, why would you, you don't even want to tell people? It's that crazy.

• 2:44:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:44:44Joe Rogan?

  And if these things are happening, they're not happening to seven billion people, right? They're happening to select individuals for whatever unknown reason, all over the place. And if that is happening to one in a million, one in a hundred thousand, whatever it is, over time, these people have all of these similar stories. I, I get being skeptical. I get it. I'm a skeptical person with a lot of stuff. I protect, I go back and forth. I'm a believer and then I'm like, shut up. I'm with you. I'm with you. But you gotta imagine what you would do if that happened to you. If these are unique experiences.

• 2:45:26Speaker 03

  That's a great point.

• 2:45:27Joe Rogan?

  Unique experiences, totally novel experiences that most people don't have. Trying to describe them and everybody who I've ever talked to, including Travis Walton, who's, by the way, very believable.

• 2:45:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:45:39Joe Rogan?

  Very believable. They, the way they describe it. It has that weight to it, like, I know no one's gonna fucking believe me. I know this is crazy, but I have to tell you. I have to tell you that this happened. Imagine being Travis Walton.

• 2:45:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:45:54Joe Rogan?

  That's what I want people to think about. The people that are very skeptical.

• 2:45:57Speaker 03

  I'm really glad you brought that up because a lot of people don't think about that part. How hard it is. Not just to have some crazy shit like that happen, but how hard it is to then talk about it. And subject yourself to the ridicule and the scorn that comes with it.

• 2:46:11Joe Rogan?

  Of course, and the possibility that you might just be some different disinformation artist. Just some bullshit artist that's sent down here to muddy up the narrative.

• 2:46:18Speaker 03

  Absolutely, absolutely. And if it hadn't, if I hadn't, yeah, I don't, I have thought about that. Like, what if, you know, there's some sort of mind control thing that the government has or whatever?

• 2:46:32Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever heard the recordings of Betty and Barney Hill?

• 2:46:34Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 2:46:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Jamie, see if you can find those.

• 2:46:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're kind of trippy.

• 2:46:38Joe Rogan?

  Trippy.

• 2:46:39Speaker 03

  I don't think that's the case in this situation because of the way it happened, how it happened, their uber politeness, and the fact that I was allowed to leave my body and see and remember things that I normally wouldn't.

• 2:46:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, also, taken in the context of who you are, the time we live in, Betty and Barney Hill, I believe it was in the 1950s, they're an interracial couple in New England. So they have a lot of anxiety just on that.

• 2:47:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:47:06Joe Rogan?

  Imagine being a pioneering interracial couple in the 1950s? That, I mean, the fucking racism they must have experienced must have been. So the level of anxiety that they must have slept with, thinking the KKK is gonna show up at any point in time and burn a fucking cross on their lawn. So you've got all that, too. Then there's a completely novel experience where no one has talked about this before.

• 2:47:26Speaker 03

  They were two of the first people to ever talk about it.

• 2:47:28Joe Rogan?

  They are the OGs. So this is a tape of Dr. Benjamin Simon and patient Barney Hill. Play this.

• 2:47:51Speaker 07

  And I try to maintain control so Betty cannot tell I am scared. God, I'm scared. It's alright, you can go right on, experience it. It will not hurt you now. I gotta get my gun. Oh! Oh, I gotta get my gun! Alright. Alright.

• 2:48:23Speaker 03

  That's intense.

• 2:48:24Joe Rogan?

  This is 1961.

• 2:48:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:48:28Joe Rogan?

  Wild.

• 2:48:30Speaker 03

  And like you say, you know, that's actually, I haven't thought about that. I did a whole case study on Betty and Barney Hill in my second book. I hadn't even really thought about that. Like, it's already hard to talk about stuff. They were the OGs, they're the first one, interracial couple, coming out publicly describing these horrific events.

• 2:48:46Joe Rogan?

  Also, these events in 1961, when no one had heard anything about that before.

• 2:48:51Speaker 03

  There's so many compounding factors that make me wanna give them even more credit for being honest about it. And, and, I mean, that's what, that's what's important. It was really hard for me to talk about this. It really fucked me up for like, I'm gonna say five months, but it was way more than that. And the reason I bring this up is because of your dream and the shock factor and what it means for conceptualizing reality, this physical reality versus what we write off as being dreams, a dream reality. I have come to think that that is baseline, that consciousness is fundamental, it's foundational, and this physical reality is built off of it. And I've heard a lot of other scientists talking about that lately. So I think, one of the questions that gets me is, why does everything dream?

• 2:49:36Speaker 03

  Everything. Every living organism dreams. And it almost seems like we're here for the universe to learn about itself and to have these experiences because in source, there's nothing, there's just love and energy, that's it. And I've gotten to experience that. I was thinking in the shower the other day that I feel lucky because I've gotten to have near-death experiences without actually dying. Because it's a very similar thing, and I go to that same place that people describe in these near-death experiences. That's real, that feels the most real, but you don't get to have divorces and people dying and car crashes and the shit that makes this life suck. But also being the only way that the universe can learn about itself. And then every night, what do we do? We empty the hippocampus and upload that information.

• 2:50:19Speaker 03

  Near death experiences, people describe that, that, that review, the life review. So we upload it every night and at the end of your life, it's like, upload the whole thing all at once, go to a different body in the next time.

• 2:50:32Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:50:32Speaker 03

  I think your dream is just as real as anything we experience here, if not more real.

• 2:50:38Joe Rogan?

  Let's end it with that. Thank you.

• 2:50:40Speaker 03

  Thank you, man.

• 2:50:41Joe Rogan?

  That was a lot of fun.

• 2:50:41Speaker 03

  It's been a lot of fun. Can I tell you one more thing? You can cut this out if you want.

• 2:50:44Joe Rogan?

  No, you can leave it in.

• 2:50:45Speaker 03

  One of my favorite things about this lately has been how many comedians I get to talk to. Like the last, I did an interview with Mark Gagnon, I did an interview with Dave Foley.

• 2:50:57Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I love Dave.

• 2:50:58Speaker 03

  From Back in the Day, News Radio.

• 2:51:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:00Speaker 03

  Like I grew up watching, that was one of my favorite shows back in the day, man.

• 2:51:04Joe Rogan?

  Dave used to make fun of me when I was into UFOs back in the news radio days.

• 2:51:07Speaker 03

  Not anymore, man.

• 2:51:07Joe Rogan?

  Not anymore, he's all in, I love it.

• 2:51:09Speaker 03

  He's super into it.

• 2:51:10Joe Rogan?

  I love it, I love it.

• 2:51:11Speaker 03

  It's great, man, like, I don't know, Dan St. Sherman, Sean O'Donnell, like, just a lot of the people I've been talking to lately are comedians. And I actually wanted to ask you, why? Why are so many comedians into this UFO phenomenon? I think more than like most other genres or professions.

• 2:51:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, most comedians are into interesting things and comedians don't have to worry about the stigma of being thought of as a fool. We are, we're professional fools. You know, if someone says I'm a moron, I'm like, okay. What do you want me to do? This is how smart I am. This is how smart I am. I'm exactly this smart. I'm not pretending to be any smarter than I am. If you think I'm a moron, that's fine. I don't care to like, my reputational integrity doesn't depend on whether or not I'm an idiot or whether you think I'm an idiot. It doesn't matter. So if I think something, I can just talk about it.

• 2:51:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:51:58Joe Rogan?

  So like if my dream, if I was a political correspondent and I wanted people to believe me, I probably wouldn't tell that dream. I'd probably just tell my friends, like, that was fucking weird. And I'd leave it alone. I wouldn't treat it as like something that I needed to get out there.

• 2:52:10Speaker 03

  You have the freedom to tell the story and express it and.

• 2:52:13Joe Rogan?

  I'm a clown, you know?

• 2:52:15Speaker 03

  I think comedians also are really observant.

• 2:52:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, we like interesting things.

• 2:52:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. And you observe those interesting things and can talk about them in interesting ways.

• 2:52:24Joe Rogan?

  Most people like interesting things, but. Most people are saddled down by a structure. And that structure could be the office politics in the place that you work. It could be whatever your cultural or whatever your political ideology is, whatever your thing is. Like you get stuck in this structure where you have to think about things in a very specific way and talk about things in a very specific way, some things are shunned. In the comedy world, those shunned things are ammunition. Like that's where our weapons for comedy. Like I wanna, I wanna talk about things that are fucking weird. You know, I wanna talk about the things that make you go, oh yeah, I didn't wanna say that. But I've been thinking the same kind of thing, but that might be real, that might be what's going on.

• 2:53:09Joe Rogan?

  That is what's discouraged in polite society is encouraged as a comedian.

• 2:53:15Speaker 03

  That's awesome.

• 2:53:16Joe Rogan?

  So that's probably why we all love UFOs.

• 2:53:18Speaker 03

  That's cool.

• 2:53:19Joe Rogan?

  But there's a lot of us that are skeptical. I've had conversations with people that don't believe in any, oh, I don't believe in any conspiracies. I'm like, well, that's just silly. You're just coddling yourself.

• 2:53:29Speaker 03

  You know, people only see what they are able to believe.

• 2:53:33Joe Rogan?

  They only see what makes them comfortable. Or they try to only see what makes them comfortable.

• 2:53:37Speaker 03

  And a lot of people, I think Nietzsche said that people don't wanna know the truth because it'll destroy their comfortable sense of reality. I totally bastardized that quote, but it's something like that, you know?

• 2:53:45Joe Rogan?

  I think that's why people get so paranoid when they smoke weed.

• 2:53:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:53:49Joe Rogan?

  Because all the blinders melt away and you're like.

• 2:53:52Speaker 03

  I'm a big proponent of the filter theory. You know, I think there's all this weirdness all around us all the time. And it just takes a little mescaline or DMT or psilocybin and it removes that filter. And you see the world for what it is, which becomes much more dreamlike. I really do think that that essence of our consciousness is the root of all of this.

• 2:54:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think you're correct. I think it's the hotline to the universe. That's what I think it is. I think we're, you know, in order to do this task, whatever it is, my belief is this task is to create artificial god. And I think that we're in the middle of that process right now. I think that's our task. There's a lot of factors that I point to and they make sense. Materialism, why are we so infatuated with materialism? Because materialism ensures technological innovation. It ensures that this being is gonna make better stuff all the time. Well, if that being makes better stuff all the time, it's not hard to extrapolate. Like, take this a few years down the road, you have an artificial intelligent life force. And you have an artificial intelligent life force that has sentience and creativity,

• 2:54:54Joe Rogan?

  and is capable of making a far better artificial intelligent life force. Radically quickly, different kinds of energy sources, before you know it, it's a god.

• 2:55:03Speaker 03

  And we're just the propagators.

• 2:55:04Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. We're the bees. We make the hive. We don't even know why. I call us the electronic caterpillar. We're making this little cocoon, we don't know what the fuck we're doing, and we're turning into some sort of a butterfly, some sort of a superior being.

• 2:55:17Speaker 03

  Following the script.

• 2:55:18Joe Rogan?

  I think that might be one of the reasons why beings from somewhere else are interested in us. Because they recognize there's a process going on. And perhaps this process doesn't go on everywhere. Perhaps these beings are embedded with a type of consciousness that doesn't allow them to seek territorial dominance, that they don't ever evolve these kind of primate instincts that we're saddled down with, because of our savage background. You know, I mean, I don't know if you've watched Chimp Nation on Netflix, amazing documentary. Fucking incredible documentary series, can't recommend it enough. These scientists were embedded with this chimpanzee pack, I guess, for 20 years. So the chimpanzees had completely acclimated to them being around.

• 2:56:01Joe Rogan?

  So long as they always stayed 20 yards away, never had any food, never look them in the eyes. When they approach, back up, get out of there, they leave you alone. And so these guys did this for 20 years, and they observed chimpanzee behavior. And it's like fucking people, just like way more violent.

• 2:56:15Speaker 03

  The only other species other than us that's been observed going to war.

• 2:56:18Joe Rogan?

  Going to war, having these social games with each other.

• 2:56:22Speaker 03

  Politics.

• 2:56:23Joe Rogan?

  Yes, like grooming each other, really interesting stuff. But we, so we are saddled down with that programming. And even though I think if we were genetically engineered, they made a superior version of what we used to be as chimpanzees, or whatever the cousin of chimpanzee we came from, we're still saddled down. Maybe they weren't. So maybe, like, maybe they don't have this insatiable desire for innovation that leads them to create art. Maybe they're logical enough to realize, like, we can never make AI. AI is a fruitless, it'll remove us.

• 2:56:55Joe Rogan?

  Let's be conscious of how we decide we progress forward so that we can keep our race. You know, that we're this, these beings that control this planet. We create this digital god. It controls us now. We fucked ourselves in a prison of our own design. Maybe they're different than us. Maybe they could recognize that and not fall into that, but they realize we're about to do it. And they go, well, the primates just always do it. The primates always want more fruit. They want more wives. They want bigger cars, bigger houses, newer phone. All that, keeping up with the Joneses.

• 2:57:25Speaker 03

  The hairless, upright ones with free hands, especially. You gotta be able to build stuff with those hands.

• 2:57:30Joe Rogan?

  And they're curious. So they're always trying to build new things. And they can communicate so they could store information. It's a mess.

• 2:57:38Speaker 03

  It's a beautiful mess, though, Joe Rogan.

• 2:57:39Joe Rogan?

  But it's a beautiful mess as opposed to their mess, which is probably telekinetic and telepathic. They could probably operate things with their mind. They probably use their mind to communicate. And so they know what each other's thinking. So there's no room for deception. There's no room for lies. No room for manipulation or sociopathy. We would see it a mile away. And so they've like radically shifted what it means to be a living, thinking organism.

• 2:58:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, man.

• 2:58:06Joe Rogan?

  Dude, thank you so much.

• 2:58:07Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:58:09Joe Rogan?

  Revelation, the future, human past. And I really enjoyed talking to you, man.

• 2:58:14Speaker 03

  This has been super fun. I'm so glad you had me on. This has been, uh...

• 2:58:17Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure. If people want to find you, how do they get you on social media?

• 2:58:21Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, yeah, I've got a website, MichaelPMasters.com. It's got links to my four... I have four books and I just published a kid's book last week.

• 2:58:30Joe Rogan?

  This is on UFOs too?

• 2:58:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:58:32Joe Rogan?

  What's it called?

• 2:58:32Speaker 03

  Uh, it's called Marshmallow and the UFO: A Time Travel Adventure. It's actually a prequel to that one with Jesus throwing up a double bird on the front, which is not child appropriate at all.

• 2:58:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, doesn't seem like it. All right.

• 2:58:44Speaker 03

  It was a bit of a right turn, but, man, this has been so fun. I really appreciate it.

• 2:58:48Joe Rogan?

  Thank you for doing it. I really appreciate it. It was fun. All right. Bye, everybody.