Pod Insights The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan David Draiman | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan About this episode Billy Corgan sits down with Disturbed frontman David Draiman for an unfiltered conversation about music, identity, and what happens when an artist steps into the political firestorm. What starts as a reflection on a surreal Black Sabbath/Ozzy tribute quickly turns into something deeper. Draiman shares how the October 7 attacks reshaped his worldview, why he felt compelled to go public, and the personal toll it’s taken, from media narratives to fractured relationships. Corgan pushes on the bigger questions: Where’s the line between free speech and responsibility? Should artists use their platform for politics or stay out of it? This is a tense but thoughtful exchange about conviction, consequence, and the role of artists in a divided world.
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Transcript 14,767 words · 2 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Remove the hatred, remove all of the narratives, remove the division for just a little while.
0:08 Billy Corgan? When you really stepped out in these last couple of years, were you prepared for what was coming?
0:12 Speaker 00 I lost my illusion and fantasy of potentially being an everyman a long time ago.
0:20 Speaker 00 Passions run hot for just about everybody these days.
0:24 Billy Corgan? Knowing the man that you are and knowing that you're willing to talk openly about these things, this is the perfect way to do that.
0:30 Speaker 00 To be honest, I don't recognize the world anymore, Billy. I genuinely don't.
0:36 Billy Corgan? Your message is resonating in a way that really surprised me.
0:39 Speaker 00 I love being able to free people from their burden. That's my drug of drugs.
0:48 Billy Corgan? David Draymond, thank you very much for being on my show.
0:51 Speaker 00 Thank you for having me, brother.
0:52 Billy Corgan? Fellow Chicagoan, much respect to you.
0:58 Billy Corgan? I want to start off with a little side note. Normally on my show, we mostly talk about music and art. But in the last couple of years, you waded very deeply into the political sphere. And so it's not to say it's going to be about politics or it's going to be about music. It's about, let's call it the intercession of both and the responsibility of an artist to to stand behind what they believe in and that type of thing. So a quick discursive on your musical accomplishment, because for those who don't know you, maybe are just here to watch what you have to say about your political or social belief, maybe is not the right way to put it, but you know, it's worth pointing out that you've been in one of the most successful metal bands of all time.
1:41 Speaker 00 Thank you.
1:42 Billy Corgan? First album, Sickness, in 2000. The next four albums debuted at number one, which is, I didn't know. And that's very impressive to me personally. Singles on all eight albums that the band's put out, Your Band Disturbed, have been in the top 10. Just unbelievable. So, because you know how these things work, because I get into them myself occasionally. The first thing people go at is, well, you don't have a right to say those things, right? I'm not even talking about your religion. I'm talking about, well, you're not this guy. You're this guy. So you don't, you know what I'm saying? So for people who don't understand that you are, you have been for many years, a dominant musical personality and very respected.
2:25 Billy Corgan? So if anybody wants to go at that angle, that's, let's just say that for my own personal opinion, that there's nowhere to go with that.
2:31 Speaker 00 I appreciate that.
2:32 Billy Corgan? And, and part of that, I think, is we were both part of the Back to the Beginning Show, which was the final Ozzy Black Sabbath show. So let's start there. Because you've had a relationship with the Osborne family going back. And I know you have a good relationship with Sharon. So let's just start with like the easy part, which is both, both of us being there. I don't think we've ever talked about our reflections, but you know, I certainly watched you play and we got to talk during that event. So can you talk a little bit?
2:56 Speaker 00 Watch yours too.
2:57 Billy Corgan? Thank you. So you could talk a little bit about your experience at the Back to the Beginning Show.
3:02 Speaker 00 Probably the most surreal day of my life. I don't know about you. I have never seen that much talent congregated in one room in one venue at one point in time.
3:12 Billy Corgan? And getting along.
3:13 Speaker 00 And getting along splendidly.
3:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
3:16 Speaker 00 Like, it was like one big family reunion. And it was warm and wonderful. And it was a celebration of everything that, you know, Ozzy was. And, and, and everybody who loved him so much and how many people he has influenced at Sabbath has influenced probably the most seminal band of all time, maybe.
3:40 Billy Corgan? You could make the argument, for sure.
3:41 Speaker 00 I, I, I was blown away, you know, genuinely like fanboying myself every five minutes.
3:49 Billy Corgan? I think we all were. Yeah.
3:50 Speaker 00 It was very, very surreal. And it was incredible to see everybody paying tribute in the way that they could. It was incredible to see so many different spheres of talent coming together and just executing flawlessly and beautifully and powerfully. And it was, and then culminating with finally seeing Ozzy take the stage for the last time and having an entire stadium just ball like babies together. I mean, it was, I'll never forget it.
4:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
4:23 Speaker 00 Crazy, crazy night.
4:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So the reason I wanted to start here, because it's both a happy memory for each of us, but also because I was on the side of the stage watching you play. And I thought it was great. And I don't remember anything being out of the ordinary. And then about a day or two later, these articles start appearing about how you were booed. And and I thought, that's not my memory.
4:48 Speaker 00 Wasn't most people's memory.
4:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
4:50 Speaker 00 It wasn't the memory of anyone that was watching the live stream. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't my memory. I thought everything went great. You know, everybody was patting me on the back and high fiving me when I came backstage. I I I didn't hear any of what they were talking about. I heard a little rabble rousing like over like stage right audience.
5:11 Billy Corgan? But even that's where I was. So I would have heard it. So if there was, it was pretty minor because I didn't hear it.
5:16 Speaker 00 Well, the sad truth about the way that social media works these days, particularly for causes and politically driven things is that, you know, the the lie travels around the world at the speed of light.
5:34 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
5:35 Speaker 00 And before you can catch up to it, the damage is already done. And it doesn't matter. Propaganda has served its purpose.
5:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah, that was my first reaction was I thought, well, I don't remember this. I was there.
5:46 Speaker 00 Yeah.
5:46 Billy Corgan? And as you said, I was, if you heard anything, I was right where it would have been. And I didn't hear that.
5:53 Billy Corgan? But secondarily, my first reaction, because if you're in the media, like both of us have been for much of our adult life, you kind of go, oh, there's a reason that he's being singled out and and somebody's leaning into this. Was that your reaction when you saw that?
6:08 Speaker 00 No doubt. I mean, look,
6:11 Speaker 00 I was expecting something at some point. You know, this basically started quite a quite a ways back before the actual show.
6:23 Speaker 00 With two, first of all, it started first and foremost with the atrocities that were that occurred on October 7th, when Hamas invaded Israel and many other Gazans invaded Israel and slaughtered and raped and kidnapped and just did the most atrocious things imaginable to innocent people who, many of which were involved in building bridges of peace. Many of them were involved in outreach to the Palestinian people and helping the people of Gaza and all of those kibbutzim, all of those, you know, those little farming settlements, those communes that are on the border. They they they were all about.
7:08 Speaker 00 Dialogue, they're all about peace, they're all about coexistence.
7:12 Billy Corgan? Okay.
7:12 Speaker 00 And what happened that day broke me.
7:19 Billy Corgan? Let me sorry, there was like, do you think that's at at the root that event?
7:26 Billy Corgan? An atrocity, yes, that that that atrocity, it shifted something in you.
7:33 Speaker 00 It intensified things.
7:34 Billy Corgan? Cause you've always been very proud of who you are and you're and and and you're certainly not shy in your opinions. And I say that as a fellow troublemaker. So, but I'm saying, is there something about that event that maybe made you feel that you had to come forward more?
7:51 Speaker 00 Yes.
7:54 Speaker 00 I think it galvanized most of world Jewry. It made every Jew that much more.
8:04 Speaker 00 You know, insistent on being publicly Jewish, on making sure that people understood that we weren't.
8:14 Speaker 00 Buckled by it, that we weren't intimidated by it, that we were going to continue to persevere. The outpouring of antisemitism that followed, that was.
8:24 Speaker 00 For intents and purposes, premeditated was planned. There were organizations that are supposed to be about human rights that were celebrating the slaughter of Jews the day it happened.
8:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:38 Speaker 00 And the day after it happened. And then to see so many of my colleagues. You know, fall prey to the narratives that are being spun. And it's it's disheartening, to say the least. There were there were two incidents in particular, leading into the back to the beginning show that. Got quite a bit of.
9:02 Speaker 00 FaceTime online, let's put it that way. I objected very, very powerfully and very strongly to the use of the live platform of the stage that we all share to spread hatred. You know, you have bands like the Irish band Kneecap, who have been known to praise Hezbollah, who is their modern day Nazis proxies of the Iranian regime. Jew hatred and bloodlust run through them. And it's just shocking to see how normalized this sort of hatred has become.
9:47 Billy Corgan? Can I stop you for a second? Do you, because I think these are important distinctions. And this is why I wanted to talk to you because, you know, to me, what I find interesting is everybody's got an opinion. Some people say them and some people don't. But everybody's got an opinion. So let's start there. But where it gets interesting to me is this is this fine line between artistry, independent thought, making a statement of things that you believe in. And then whether or not there should be, let's call it deplatforming or some sort of thing. So for example, in the in the case of, I think the thing with Kneecap
10:30 Billy Corgan? that got your ire was they were on stage at Coachella, right? And on the screens came up, and again, tell me if I'm wrong, came up Israel, Free Palestine. And, okay, so so freeze that moment in time if we can. Do you have an issue? So do you have an issue with the band saying it?
10:53 Speaker 00 I have an issue with the band. Being using their platform to incite.
11:01 Billy Corgan? So you see it as an incitement of?
11:03 Speaker 00 I see it as an incitement when the bands that they, when the organizations that they are praising, part of their charter is literally to slaughter Jews. Hezbollah is a demonic terrorist organization. They don't deserve to be praised by anyone for any reason.
11:25 Billy Corgan? Sure, but because I, this is, these are difficult discussions.
11:30 Speaker 00 Sure.
11:31 Billy Corgan? Excuse my sort of wandering around, but if they were saying it on their social media or they're saying it on a stage, do you think it's, it's a situation where they have every right to say it, but, but they shouldn't have allies in it? Like it shouldn't be on a social media platform or it shouldn't be on a, on a stage?
11:50 Speaker 00 Everyone has the right to say anything they want onstage, offstage, on camera, off.
11:55 Billy Corgan? So you don't have a problem with the, you don't have a problem with the free express?
11:57 Speaker 00 I, I am not in any way supportive of stifling free speech. I think that free speech and speech of that kind needs to be met with more speech. The speech that I tried to provide.
12:12 Billy Corgan? So your reaction is one of, I think that's wrong that you're doing.
12:16 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
12:17 Billy Corgan? Okay, so it's more of a moral.
12:19 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
12:20 Billy Corgan? I just want to be clear because.
12:21 Speaker 00 No, no, I think everyone has the right to, look, everyone has a platform. Everyone has a voice and everyone's entitled to that voice. Choosing what you do with it is key and not expecting there to be backlash or repercussions after using said voice outside of the court of law and normal prosecution from the government.
12:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
12:41 Speaker 00 You're being naive. The court of public opinion is what it is.
12:45 Billy Corgan? Sure.
12:45 Speaker 00 And it is powerful and there's a, and even if you're, you can say something.
12:53 Speaker 00 To me, you'll never see me, for example, get onstage and preach division of any kind. I will never encourage that. Our, our performances as a band, I've always tried.
13:09 Speaker 00 Far and away, to keep completely free of any sort of polarizing entity of any kind. No political leanings of any kind. I want everyone who comes to a disturbed concert to feel welcome, to feel safe, to feel empowered, to feel unified. That's what those moments are for.
13:28 Billy Corgan? Sure.
13:29 Speaker 00 And it bothered me to take, to see someone who is being given this gift, this opportunity to take a platform that few people in life or this world are blessed to take.
13:44 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
13:45 Speaker 00 And to abuse it in that way, I had to speak up. Now, that wasn't as much clear incitement as this Bob Villain idiot who was...
13:58 Billy Corgan? That was, it was, they said Glastonbury?
14:00 Speaker 00 That was Glastonbury. And that was him getting on stage and saying, "Death, death to the IDF." Now, that is straight up incitement. Every single citizen of the state of Israel has mandatory service in the military, in the IDF, for two years. That's what they're required to do. We are surrounded by nations, entities, groups of people that want nothing more than to obliterate us from the...
14:32 Billy Corgan? Are you talking, this instance, the Jewish state of Israel? You're talking about worldwide Jewry?
14:36 Speaker 00 Unfortunately, it's both.
14:37 Billy Corgan? Okay.
14:38 Speaker 00 These days. And to demonize and incite against every single Israeli in existence, essentially, is what this man was doing and this band was doing. There's nothing more irresponsible than that. That is direct incitement to violence.
14:56 Billy Corgan? So, let's break that down a little bit, too, because I think this is the heart of the conversation. Do you think the promoters have a responsibility, because on some level they're putting these artists on the stage? And before anybody thinks I'm going in some other direction, I'm, I'm big on, I'm a free speech person.
15:12 Speaker 00 As am I.
15:13 Billy Corgan? Okay. So, your argument is not against the promoter?
15:16 Speaker 00 No.
15:16 Billy Corgan? Okay.
15:17 Speaker 00 No, no, no, I might...
15:18 Billy Corgan? So, strictly like...
15:22 Billy Corgan? I recognize your right to stand on this stage and I recognize your right.
15:25 Speaker 00 And I'm gonna call you out.
15:25 Billy Corgan? And I'm gonna, but I'm gonna call you out if I think you're going.
15:27 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
15:28 Billy Corgan? Okay, so that's because I think that's very important for you as an artist to distinguish if people don't understand your position.
15:34 Speaker 00 People have a right, you know, people have the right to say whatever they want. And people have the same right to counter said speech with more speech.
15:43 Billy Corgan? Okay.
15:43 Speaker 00 And to try and influence the rational people.
15:47 Billy Corgan? So in the, in, in, in the, in the wake of, of the, of the horrible atrocities in, in Israel, you, at least from my position, because I'm not, you know, I'm not sitting on your social media every day, but it seems like you've kind of come forward and put yourself in, into the, into the fray of this greater argument.
16:06 Speaker 00 I have, I, I.
16:09 Billy Corgan? Can you, can you walk me through, at least from a personal point of view?
16:12 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
16:13 Billy Corgan? Do you wake up one day and think, I gotta do something? Do you turn to your partner and say, I gotta do, you know, it's like, walk me through that process?
16:19 Speaker 00 No.
16:19 Billy Corgan? Because you're, sorry, I, we know each other a little bit personally.
16:23 Speaker 00 Yes.
16:23 Billy Corgan? You're a very smart man.
16:24 Speaker 00 Thank you, brother, you as well.
16:25 Billy Corgan? God bless you. So, point is, you know, we all understand that there's a ramification and I've certainly taken hits for saying certain things and doing certain things. So we're fully aware that there's going to be a manager or a bandmate or a friend that's going to go, what are you doing here?
16:39 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
16:40 Billy Corgan? Because you're hurting, blank.
16:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, well, my soul is worth more than any amount of money to me.
16:50 Billy Corgan? Is it, is it from the Bible where it says, what, what profiteth the man if he gained the whole world but loses his soul?
16:56 Speaker 00 Exactly. And my integrity and my honor and my people. I come from a family of Holocaust survivors. Ninety percent of my mother's side of the family was wiped out by the Nazis. My grandfather was in Dachau, my grandmother was in Auschwitz. My grandmother and my grandfather, my father's side have been living in the land of Israel since before it was established as a state, since the early 1900s, we fed family there. My grandmother is Yemenite, her family immigrated from them. My, my grandfather's Polish, she came in from Poland with the rest of his family. Everyone was escaping violence, everyone was escaping the destruction and the horrors
17:41 Speaker 00 of the Holocaust.
17:42 Billy Corgan? So to people who are.
17:46 Billy Corgan? They don't agree with you to people who are confused by these issues, to people who are stuck in like, let's call it the lanes of propaganda. What do you, as just a human being, not as a music artist, what do you want people to understand about why you feel the need to say these things? Because I think maybe the word that comes to mind is tribalism. I think sometimes people get lost in their tribe, and I'm not talking about the tribe of the Jews. I'm just talking about, these are my people, this is my crew, and I got to stand up for my crew. And then somebody says, well, this is my crew.
18:18 Speaker 00 I'm not trying to be a tribalist, to be honest. I'm trying to be a humanist.
18:21 Billy Corgan? Okay.
18:23 Speaker 00 I truly do have compassion for the Palestinian people, truly, truly do. A lot of what everyone, for the past couple of years, since I visited Israel after October 7th, to pay my respects and support however I could, and just meet with families of the hostages. And I've been blessed to actually befriend some of the former hostages over the course of the past couple of years. It's been a very surreal experience. But what everybody loves to pick on is there's this one wonderful picture of me signing an artillery shell
19:03 Speaker 00 at a, by an artillery unit that was on the Gaza border that I went to visit during that stay. And they're like, oh, well, you signed the, you signed a bomb, a bomb absolutely definitely killed children or whatever else.
19:18 Billy Corgan? Well, that's where kneecap the band, that's what they went right out at you about.
19:21 Speaker 00 Of course, of course. And that's what everybody will go after, after me about. But, you know, here's the thing, believe it or not, contrary to public opinion, Jews are allowed to fight back. And if there is a genocidal organization on your border who is constantly launching rockets day after day, who is committing the worst slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust, I have calls from my mother crying to me in her safe room, in her bomb shelter, as rockets are coming down. I have friends of mine who barely survived the Nova Music Festival massacre
20:02 Speaker 00 because they decided to hide in a pile of garbage while friends of theirs were being raped around them and mutilated. Who barely escaped with their lives, who were shot in the process of escape. You know, people don't understand they're human beings behind all of this destruction. Their hu- their lives, there's real consequences. This isn't some movie. This isn't some storyline.
20:25 Billy Corgan? What I, but, but, but I think you know, because you live in it in your musical life, it's a world of narratives.
20:32 Speaker 00 Yes.
20:32 Billy Corgan? It's, you know, in the, in the case of this, this longstanding conflict, because I've heard about it my whole life, of course.
20:42 Billy Corgan? It's as much of a narrative war as it is a literal war.
20:46 Speaker 00 It is, and unfortunately.
20:49 Billy Corgan? So by entering the narrative, by entering the narrative war, you put yourself in this, in this fray.
20:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, and that's okay. I'm at peace with that.
20:57 Billy Corgan? So, so looking back on the, on the, the signing of the shell and of course, you know, public condemnation of that, are you in the, are you in the brain space of I do it again, or probably not the best move, but I, I still understand why I did. I'm giving you your.
21:12 Speaker 00 Billy, I would sign every single piece of military equipment in existence. Okay. If it meant that Hamas was finally eradicated and that the Palestinian people had a real chance at a real future.
21:26 Speaker 00 You know, extremism is a cancer for anyone, for any part of society or civilization. And they have been raised to hate and slaughter and lust over the murder of Jews since the day they're born. That's unfortunate. There are UN organizations like UNRWA who facilitate this hatred, whose schools have teaching material that is pure incitement, that have cartoon characters, that glorify the murder of Jews. That whole aspect of society needs to be deradicalized. It's.
22:11 Speaker 00 It's comparable to what needed to happen to Nazi Germany after World War II. You have an entire group of people who live, breathe and die for one thing, and that is to slaughter Jews. And for anyone to have an issue,
22:30 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:30 Speaker 00 They always have an issue when you fight back. It's never... Everyone loves dead Jews. Everyone loves persecuted Jews. Everyone loves to feel bad. But God forbid, we actually raise our fist to defend ourselves, then we're the bad guy. You know, the insinuation that every single piece of military equipment that was used in that conflict killed innocents is absolutely preposterous. You're talking about, even if you take Hamas's health ministry's numbers at face value, you're talking about the lowest civilian-to-combatant ratio in modern warfare history. You're talking about a war that needed to be waged in an urban environment.
23:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
23:12 Speaker 00 In an urban environment where not only is martyrdom glorified, but it's encouraged and it's part of the culture. You have Palestinian mothers that dream of their sons one day becoming Shaheids, becoming martyrs. And it's a disgusting way to live life. I wish better for them.
23:38 Billy Corgan? What's your response? You know, because, you know, we see these numbers from Gaza.
23:44 Speaker 00 Yes.
23:45 Billy Corgan? And, you know, again, there's a reality and it's hard for any of us to discern the reality. There's the propaganda aspects from both sides. That's obvious. So what's your response to people who just say, I don't know how you're supporting? I hear what you're saying. I hear the empathy in your voice, but how can you support the killing of innocents? Or, you know, you...
24:09 Speaker 00 I don't support the killing of any...
24:10 Billy Corgan? I'm not saying that. I want to be clear. I'm not saying you support that. I'm saying is,
24:16 Billy Corgan? do you have an argument of refutation to that argument? Or do you have a...
24:21 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
24:22 Billy Corgan? Okay.
24:26 Speaker 00 Conflict, hatred, war is a choice. It's a choice. Um, I think that both, uh, you know, that we all need to choose differently. But if you're forced and you are, and you have no choice, what are you supposed to do? If Hamas laid down their arms as they were supposed to do according to the ceasefire agreement that's currently in place, which they haven't been adhering to, they haven't laid down their arms, they refuse to disarm, they refuse to relinquish power. They continue to terrorize the Palestinian population. They continue to do, uh, you know,
25:11 Speaker 00 targeted killings of people who have opposed them. They continue to, uh, uh, abuse their position by, uh, hijacking supplies, selling them at higher prices, uh, completely taking advantage of the population they're supposed to be protecting. They didn't spend any of their resources on infrastructure. They didn't spend any of their resources on taking care of the people of Palestine. They spent it on digging tunnels. They spent it on taking water pipes and turning them into rockets. They spent it on every aspect of their waking, living, breathing moments in life, focusing on intensifying hatred. And it's a waste.
25:54 Speaker 00 I, I, I, I would love for this whole new idea of a new Gaza to be something that comes to fruition. I think that economic prosperity can dissuade extremism. I think that it can make people think that, you know what, there are better things to focus on. I have the chance at a better life here. I have a chance at moving away from this hopelessness, from this endless cycle of violence. You know, both sides, the Jews in Israel and the Palestinians, whether they're in Gaza or the West Bank or anywhere else, everybody needs to understand that nobody's going anywhere. Okay?
26:36 Billy Corgan? So you accept that as a sort of a given?
26:37 Speaker 00 You have to, you have to, you must accept it.
26:40 Billy Corgan? So is, is, is...
26:44 Billy Corgan? Are you of the position that this claim of a resistance is fraudulent or not based in reality? Like, do you understand the nuance?
26:53 Speaker 00 I would say it's both fraudulent and certainly not based in reality.
26:56 Billy Corgan? Because that seems to be, to me, the most compelling case, and I'm not taking sides, but that seems to be the most compelling case. We are, I'm putting myself in the position of the resistance side. We are, we are making the case that we need to do these extreme things to get your attention, or get to do these extreme things to get the balance of power here to change.
27:18 Speaker 00 Unfortunately, they're right. They're doing things. And the things that they're doing is that they're sacrificing their own people on the world stage for everyone to see and to gain additional sympathy and to go ahead and sacrifice their children, their loved ones.
27:35 Billy Corgan? But you think it's born of a, if you think of it's born of a classic, you know, people in power want to stay in power, so this is the lane that they've chosen, and so you're saying...
27:43 Speaker 00 Well, it's more insidious than that.
27:44 Billy Corgan? Okay, please, yeah.
27:45 Speaker 00 It is not just a matter of them wanting to stay in power. It's a matter of them genuinely believing their Nazi-like bloodlust. It's ingrained in the culture.
27:56 Billy Corgan? But where does this come from if you don't believe, because obviously, the argument against the Jews in Nazi Germany was it was a genetic issue.
28:05 Speaker 00 Or, well, that was, that's the Aryan argument, right?
28:09 Billy Corgan? Sure, but I'm saying, I know you certainly don't believe that about...
28:11 Speaker 00 No.
28:12 Billy Corgan? Okay, so what is the, I mean, I don't know, because it's a complex issue for me, obviously. But what do you, where do you think this comes from?
28:21 Speaker 00 That's, that's, that's the, you know, the priceless question.
28:28 Billy Corgan? Sure, because, because irregardless of the politics or what's going to come of this eternal struggle here, it seems obvious that, that there's a motivation, and it seems to be directed in one particular direction. Now, that may not be true, and I may not be sophisticated enough to understand the counterargument that someone would make. Because I have friends in that part of the world, and they'll try to say that, no, no, you don't understand, the Israelis are the aggressors.
29:01 Speaker 00 Israelis are the aggressors.
29:02 Billy Corgan? No, but I'm.
29:04 Speaker 00 Well, let's, let's, let's, let's.
29:06 Billy Corgan? Sure.
29:07 Speaker 00 Let's, let's go down history lane here.
29:09 Billy Corgan? Well, let me, I don't want to stop you, but let me ask you one thing.
29:13 Speaker 00 Go ahead.
29:15 Billy Corgan? My real purpose of talking about these things is not to, is not to lay out the eternal argument because I don't have enough sophistication to even understand half of what you're saying, not because I think it's true or not true. I just don't know the nuance.
29:30 Speaker 00 Understood.
29:31 Billy Corgan? So I feel, you know, inadequate in being able to sort of play journalist because I'm not a journalist. My fascination, at least to talk to you today, is, is to try to find the balance between a man who feels very passionate about his, his calling, if that's a fair word to use in this, because again, I know you a little bit. So to see you personally step forward, you know what you're doing by putting yourself forward.
29:56 Speaker 00 I do.
29:57 Billy Corgan? You're not, you're not, oh gee, I'm surprised that people have a problem with what I'm.
30:02 Speaker 00 No, no, listen, I, I, I lost my illusion and fantasy of potentially being an everyman a long time ago. I think that I haven't been an everyman even prior to any of this coming into existence. I think that one of the things about myself and disturbed is people feel passionately about us one way or the other. They love or they hate. There's no lukewarm feelings about us. And that's okay. I think I kind of prefer it that way. So I'm used to that. I wasn't used to everything else that came along with this. I don't think any Jew on the planet has been used to it. You know, there's no one who wishes for a
30:46 Speaker 00 true, real coexistence more than me. You know, my family and my people.
30:59 Speaker 00 Are tired of war. We've suffered through it, endless ones. And there've been numerous peace opportunities for the Palestinians to accept. You know, Bill Clinton, you know, nearly killed himself trying to make a state happen for the Palestinian people. Every single offer that's been made over the course of time has been rejected because they don't want two states. They don't want coexistence. They want their land back after what they call the Nakba, okay?
31:36 Speaker 00 In 1948, okay, seven Arab countries, once the Jewish state was ratified by the United Nations, once it came into existence, they simultaneously attacked Israel. It's been since then. How dare the Jews go ahead and take this piece of land? Any piece. It's not, it doesn't matter. It's not about size, it's not about amount, it's about a desecration of this idea that they had in their hands, heads of this superiority in the region and this purity, very Nazi-like.
32:14 Speaker 00 You know, the grand Mufti of the Palestinian people, way back before there was ever a state of Israel, sat down with Hitler, you know, was part of negotiations for the final solution, was part of talks. It was going to extend to the Middle East. Thank God it didn't end up going that far. We had to deal with other pogroms and other horrible slaughters on behalf of the respective cultures in the region and every region that the Jews dwelt and lived in, whether it was Iran in Persia with the Farhood or any other number, or whether what happened in the Hebron massacre in Israel.
32:57 Speaker 00 There's been numerous instances of violence and hatred and making the notion very, very clear that for the most part, for a very, very long time. Arabs felt that Jews had no place there.
33:16 Speaker 00 The tragic part of that, the most tragic part of that, is that there are no two peoples on the face of planet Earth that are more closely blood related than the Arabs and the Jews. Both are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. Those are the two sons that went and became two separate, complete nations. We are brothers, family. There's no reason we should be slaughtering each other.
33:44 Billy Corgan? So why do you think then that the feeling isn't mutual?
33:49 Speaker 00 I, you know, why has the Jew been attacked throughout history? Why did the Crusades happen? Why did the Inquisition happen? Why did, you know?
34:00 Billy Corgan? As I say, this is all about my pay.
34:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, but, look, this is, unfortunately, Billy, this is something that has existed and transcends the past two years we're talking about. It precedes it. It is the oldest hatred in history.
34:17 Billy Corgan? So to, so to pull the lens out a bit, you know, as you know, this gets blurry down here.
34:28 Billy Corgan? Do you want people to understand that from your perspective, and again, I'm trying to more pull it to the balance between your musical life and your political activism, if that's a fair way to put it?
34:40 Billy Corgan? Is your argument that you, you, you, you're saying, "Look, there's an existential thing here that needs to be dealt with, and how can I stand by and not do something about that?"
34:50 Speaker 00 I can't. My conscience just simply won't allow it.
34:54 Billy Corgan? Do you recognize that, that that's similar messaging from the other side, that they're saying the same thing?
35:01 Speaker 00 They are saying, they're saying something with the same level of passion? Absolutely. And that they believe it. With the full heart, based on their respective backgrounds and ethnicities and what they've been taught and how they've been raised, I have no doubt, I have no question. I think it's time to start questioning, questioning the narratives. I think it's time to start questioning.
35:24 Billy Corgan? What would you, if, if somebody kind of does what a lot of people do, they kind of go, this is way too complicated, right? Because even when you're talking, I'm like, I know what you're saying, but it's still very complicated and you're not like in the day to day of it all. What would, what's the one thing you would want somebody to understand? What would you want to say like, like, look, like, this is what I'm after and this is why I'm out here speaking?
35:48 Speaker 00 Well, the most important thing that people need to realize is that there's so much demonization that goes on of Jews, of Israelis. And people need to understand that whether it's me or anyone else, that we're human beings, that we have loved ones that we're trying to protect and look after, that we've dealt with a lifetime of persecution. You know, Billy, I've got a whole bunch of broken bones all over my body, okay, that have healed over the course of time, all right? My nose has been broken three times. This thumb, this ankle, this wrist, three ribs on this side, two ribs on this side,
36:29 Speaker 00 every single one from altercations with antisemites, every single one, every one.
36:35 Billy Corgan? I didn't know that.
36:36 Speaker 00 It's the truth. Now, I didn't always come out on top, as evidenced by the breakage, but I never stopped fighting and I never will. This is something that's existed and has been a part of my life, unfortunately, all of my life.
36:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
36:55 Speaker 00 What happened over the course of the past two years simply intensified it because...
37:02 Speaker 00 In an effort to try and make everybody distance themselves from their Judaism, or be afraid of it, or be intimidated by those who seek to persecute us and seek to increase hatred, we've only become more proud, we've only become more, if there's a way to say it, intensely Jewish. And I think that that has been a, it's been a galvanizing aspect for the diaspora and for the entire community.
37:32 Billy Corgan? This is a slightly divergent point, but I think it connects to one thing that you're saying that means something to me. You recently did a post, we're taping this just in the aftermath of the Grammys here, here in Los Angeles.
37:47 Speaker 00 Less.
37:48 Billy Corgan? But I want to, I want to sort of say kind of what you said in paraphrase, and then you take it where you want to take it. Because I think this is worth pointing out, that at least in this particular instance, from what I've seen, that your message is resonating in a way that really surprised me. And I'm paraphrasing, so please correct me if you think the paraphrase is wrong. You basically called out the artists that were making political statements during the Grammys, not for what they were saying. In fact, you said, "I'm not even having a quibble with what you said."
38:21 Speaker 00 No.
38:22 Billy Corgan? "I just think your silence on what's happening in Iran is deafening."
38:25 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
38:26 Billy Corgan? You didn't quite use the word hypocrite, but I thought, well, that's a good point, because, you know, where is this care for this?
38:34 Speaker 00 Well, if you're really about human rights, where do you draw the line?
38:37 Billy Corgan? Okay, great. So, so, so, because I was curious, knowing we were going to talk, because again, all these things are being played out in the private world, but also the public world. And once you declare yourself as part of this existential argument that's going on, well, you're part of the discourse, and there's articles and headlines and all that type of stuff. And I was very surprised, once you said that, I read the comments, and it was 97% positive, and almost all the comments from people in Iran or Persians around the world.
39:08 Speaker 00 They need our voices. They don't have enough of them. You know, the Persian and Jewish people have been allies for centuries, since the days of Cyrus the Great.
39:24 Speaker 00 You know, Persian society and Persian culture are beautiful and expressive. And they were conquered in seventy-nine during the Islamic Revolution. And they were subjugated. You know, all these wannabe freedom fighters that are so desperately clinging to their frail narratives that supposedly keep them safe and keep them in community and keep them in the right sights with everyone they're supposed to be notching points with.
40:04 Speaker 00 Why hasn't the greatest slaughter of civilians by their own government in modern history been acknowledged? Everyone had no issue with taking up the Palestinian struggle in previous awards shows with wearing the bloody red hand pen, which these morons don't even realize what it stands for. And that in and of itself is in... I can't even begin to explain to you the level of anger it generates. The bloody red hand pen is not you have blood on your hands. There was a massacre that happened, okay, in Ramallah.
40:44 Speaker 00 Okay, that two off-duty Israeli soldiers went, not in their fatigues, not in their military getup, they made a wrong turn, they went into Ramallah. They were pulled apart in pieces. The gentleman who was only too proud to show the blood on his hands from the murder of these poor two innocent people, held them up to the window so that he could show everybody outside what he had just done. Those red handprints date back to the Farhood, that pogrom that I spoke about that happened in Persia, in Iran, ironically. Red handprints were placed on the houses of the Jews
41:27 Speaker 00 that were meant to be attacked, that were meant to be slaughtered. Okay, this red handprint is the most insensitive, inappropriate and inflammatory symbol they could possibly wear. And it stands completely diametrically opposite to anything they're trying to actually support.
41:47 Billy Corgan? But you know how this town works, half the people, half the people doing that stuff don't even know.
41:50 Speaker 00 But they should, and I'm here to tell them.
41:52 Billy Corgan? Okay, so let's talk.
41:53 Speaker 00 And I'm here to tell them because it's absolutely wrong.
41:55 Billy Corgan? So let's talk about it from, from a slightly different lens.
42:00 Billy Corgan? Do you believe musicians or music artists should be political?
42:05 Speaker 00 I think musicians should speak to their hearts, no matter what it may be. You know, the, the tradition of protest music has been a long one. There's no reason why art can't be fused or shouldn't be fused. In fact, it absolutely positively should be fused with intensely powerful messaging.
42:23 Billy Corgan? If you compare these times to, let's say, the 1960s, there's a paucity of political and social cause music.
42:31 Speaker 00 Agreed.
42:31 Billy Corgan? Which is interesting.
42:32 Speaker 00 Yeah.
42:33 Billy Corgan? So does that tell you like it tells me that they're, they're on one level performing to the, to the cause of the day, which is kind of what you were saying in your post about the Grammys. And at the same time, they're afraid to actually speak out and take any real position in their music because they don't want to pay the price.
42:51 Speaker 00 It's not courage, it's cowardice. You're just talking into an echo chamber. It's one big glorastic circle jerk.
42:59 Billy Corgan? So.
43:00 Speaker 00 You know, what, what, what, what, what purpose does it serve other than everybody patting themselves on the back? I, I, look.
43:08 Speaker 00 I won't even talk about the ICE issue. Okay, I'm sort of in the middle when it comes to that. I am fiercely supportive of our police department, of our, of our federal agencies. I also feel there should be a much faster and quicker means of achieving citizenship in this country. I think it shouldn't be as difficult. I think that people who have-
43:30 Billy Corgan? It does seem weird that there isn't sort of more of a push to create some form of, you know, it's, how can I put it? That there should be pathways to citizenship that ameliorate the tension-
43:44 Speaker 00 Agreed.
43:44 Billy Corgan? That's created by-
43:45 Speaker 00 Agreed. I wish that people were thinking more of that than trying to take every single issue that they can find and use it as some sort of partisan political tool to attack the other side. And that's what I see happening on a regular basis. I think people, you know, sow division because they profit from it and they continue to do so. They continue to empower themselves and enrich themselves. But to go back to the other subject for a minute, you know, they had no problem, an entire group of all those same people sporting that red hand pin. Okay, there's no pins for Iran. It, it, these people are being-
44:24 Billy Corgan? Talking about the Grammys now.
44:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I don't, I don't understand. I don't understand why this atrocity didn't qualify. If you truly are for human rights, then why didn't you speak out? It's happening now. It's currently happening. It's ongoing. It's, it's, it's abhorrent on every level. How, if you truly are a human rights supporter, are you not speaking about this? Well, I'll tell you why. Because it, because it goes contrary to the narratives that they've been fed. Because they've been fed these anti-colonialist narratives that are infused with Marxist ideology that have no place in the discussion whatsoever.
45:03 Speaker 00 There's been this strange, you know, mutant combination of these elements that don't go together. You, you, you have people who are supposedly pro LGBTQIA+ supportive of,
45:19 Speaker 00 pro-choice and all the rights that liberals have come to adore and, and, and embrace. And I am one of those people who stands for those rights. 1,000%.
45:30 Speaker 00 Do you think that any of the people that you are supporting support those rights?
45:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
45:36 Speaker 00 They don't, not in the least. They view you as haram. You're forbidden. You know, homosexuality is forbidden. People are executed. People are hung. People, women can't show their hair in Iran. You're claiming to be liberal minded. You're claiming to be for rights. And you're not speaking about a country that is the most brutal theocratic dictatorship on planet earth that has subjugated their citizens since 1979, that has tortured them, that has used its proxies to spread its cancer of hatred throughout the Middle East. That is a destabilizing entity. Okay.
46:18 Speaker 00 But they've been taught that everyone that aligns with the other side of that, those are the good guys. That's what the narrative is. It's all bull.
46:26 Billy Corgan? I see.
46:27 Speaker 00 It's all bull. It's absolute nonsense. And once you start picking away at it, it falls apart. This was the, the, the, what is happening in Iran right now is the single greatest mask off moment, perhaps in history of the human rights movement. The actual human rights organizations were so sluggish to condemn what was going on in Iran. The United Nations had Iran on their own goddamn human rights council just the week before all this stuff went down. They, they, they, they have been emboldening this regime, this terrifying regime for decades.
47:08 Billy Corgan? Right.
47:08 Speaker 00 Um, and, and, and between them, the Qataris infiltrating our universities, infiltrating our learning institutions, kindergartens, uh, the amount of money that has been injected into our society that is fomenting hatred in our schools, that is creating a whole new generation of students that are.
47:37 Speaker 00 Being bred to and taught to.
47:38 Billy Corgan? Are you on, are you on some level making the argument that it's, it's, it's not even at the end of the day, really a religious conversation? It's more a conversation about power being exercised in plain sight and people ignoring it, depending on who's.
47:52 Speaker 00 It's both. It's both because it's religiously driven.
47:56 Billy Corgan? But is that ultimately an instrument of, of how, how people are wound up?
48:02 Speaker 00 Certainly. Look, passions run hot for just about everybody these days. That's the nature of the environment.
48:11 Billy Corgan? Sure.
48:11 Speaker 00 You know, it's what everybody feeds on.
48:13 Billy Corgan? But the deeper discussion, because again, we're in the, in the weeds, the deeper discussion is, you know, let's call it the lines here about where artists are being put under an interesting set of stresses that are unique to the time because of social media. And because if you're talking to say, pick your random pop star who's got 300 million followers on Instagram.
48:39 Billy Corgan? If, if you can bend them to your political narrative, even if it's just something like clean water, which we, none of us really generally don't have a problem with. That's a pretty powerful ally that you have. So artists are being enlisted in these, in this greater sort of thing. So I think that the sustaining thing that I think would make people want to watch our discussion beyond picking sides or not, is where these ley lines lie for artists going forward in the age of hyper propaganda, government censorship, and whether or not artists have a responsibility. You know, it seems to be you're saying if you feel compelled to, you should, and should
49:20 Billy Corgan? be willing to take the, the, whatever the, not the backlash, but the, but the.
49:25 Speaker 00 You have to be prepared for it, for sure.
49:27 Billy Corgan? Look. Were you, were you prepared for, if, when you really stepped out in this last couple of years, were you prepared for what was coming?
49:35 Speaker 00 To an extent.
49:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
49:39 Speaker 00 I'll be honest with you. What I wasn't prepared for was some of the.
49:46 Speaker 00 Friendships and relationships that have dissolved since.
49:51 Billy Corgan? Without naming names, can you, can you, can you define some of these, now somebody won't text you back?
49:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, you know, colleagues of mine that I wanted to, you know, collaborate with or, you know,
50:08 Speaker 00 invited to my wedding, you know, that, that kind of hurt.
50:12 Billy Corgan? Okay, yeah.
50:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's been a, it's been a mask off moment for the world, to be honest. I, I, I don't recognize the world anymore, Billy. I genuinely don't. I, um,
50:30 Speaker 00 I have to find my center when I look at my son. Okay. And I have to look at him and I have to say hi to him and I have to make sure he understands one thing above all. Okay. That contrary to what has happened in prior generations, contrary to the stereotype that exists.
50:54 Speaker 00 We are not Jews with trembling knees. We don't cower. We don't bow to bullies. I never want my son to think that that's what we do.
51:05 Speaker 00 And he's watching.
51:08 Speaker 00 And I have to be the example that I
51:12 Speaker 00 must be for him.
51:15 Speaker 00 You know, it, it's, it's a horrible quandary. It really is, you know, because
51:21 Speaker 00 there's so much potential for so much good in that region. And if only certain elements were removed, it could foster, it could flower, it could, it could proliferate. And I, I, I truly wish that our world and our society gives it the chance to do that. I think that there's nothing more than, you know, that what most Israelis, and I think.
51:49 Speaker 00 A growing number of Arabs want coexistence and peace. We're tired of war. We're tired of fighting with each other. The Abraham Accords, say what you want about President Trump. I don't always agree with the man. I don't always disagree with the man. But then again, I haven't always agreed or disagreed with any elected official that's taken office. And I've always made it my business to call out right and wrong and injustices or whatever when I see them. The Abraham Accords were amazing. Having a country like the UAE come into the fold, having Bahrain come into the fold, all these things, they were amazing. And if we can build on that, if we can build on understanding, if we can build on acceptance,
52:33 Speaker 00 if we can finally put down the tools of war so that we don't have to defend ourselves, nobody wants that more than we do. Nobody wants that more than yours truly. I'm tired of getting the terrifying.
52:44 Billy Corgan? So you're thoroughly convinced that the, the, the, it's hard because it gets blurry with the state of Israel because of the religious overlay. But, but is your, is your, you have a deep, because you're obviously convicted. Do you have a deep feeling that in your estimation, your side is not the aggressor?
53:03 Speaker 00 No, no, never has been. Here's the very, the clearest differentiation. Okay. If Hamas, Hezbollah, the Iranian regime, the Houthis, everybody involved, okay? If they laid down their weapons and they committed to coexistence and dialogue, there would be peace in the Middle East. There's no question. We're not looking for more territory. We're not looking to conquer. We just want to live in peace. If the Israelis put down their weapons, there'd be another Holocaust. We would be annihilated. That's the difference.
53:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
53:42 Speaker 00 And I, you know, so.
53:46 Speaker 00 How can you be an aggressor when you keep on giving up more and more of the land that you were given, as your, as your original doctrine stated? How can you be the aggressor when you keep on offering to sit at the table with people and try and make peace deals? Offer them concessions? Offer them?
54:02 Billy Corgan? So, okay, but so to you, because based on what I've seen in the last few years.
54:09 Speaker 00 Sure.
54:10 Billy Corgan? And, and whether it's campus protests or people being very open about what is obviously patently antisemitic languaging. I mean, I've grown up watching people say lots of things. But, but when you see an outward and obvious support of antisemitism, that makes me uncomfortable because hate in any form is, makes me uncomfortable.
54:36 Speaker 00 As it does to me as well.
54:37 Billy Corgan? Sure. So, uh, it, without getting in the weeds, is, is there a through line for you? Or is it, is it just, I'm in the existential fight here and I feel like I need to be part of this?
54:52 Speaker 00 I didn't.
54:53 Billy Corgan? Because what's interesting, I think about you is, is, uh, at least I can say, sitting here with you, as much of as an advocate as you are, I don't feel like you're trying to convince me of anything.
55:04 Speaker 00 No.
55:05 Billy Corgan? I think you're very pragmatic about it all. I think you see it clearly from your position. I don't agree with it all, but it's not, I don't, I'm not on the other side of the equation by, by any means. But it's, it's trying to understand, like, is there a through line for you? Because sometimes when people get deeply into a struggle, I'm using that word widely, uh, you know, it's hard to see sort of the bigger picture. And I, and I was really, that's why I thought bringing up you talking about Iran was very interesting because I think you do have that sense of that there is a wider thing that's possible here. And, uh, and the Iranian regime, and I have friends that I met that grew up in Persia
55:47 Billy Corgan? when it was, you know, some of the best colleges in the Middle East and nobody was wearing a headscarf and, you know, it looks like, you know, New York 77 and it's Tehran.
55:58 Speaker 00 Yeah.
55:58 Billy Corgan? You see those pictures, you're like, okay. That was a hard shift to the right or the left, depending on how you want to quantify. What I'm trying to say is I've met people and the fact that you care about the irate citizenry shows that you're at least guided by some moral center here.
56:18 Speaker 00 It's not just them. I care about the Uighurs who are imprisoned in Chinese concentration camps to this day. I care about what's happening to the Ukrainian people who are still besieged by, you know, Russian attacks every single week. I care about the Christians who are being slaughtered all across the African continent. I care about, I care about the Palestinians.
56:45 Billy Corgan? Right.
56:46 Speaker 00 I care about, I care about the Kurds who are being slaughtered up in Syria.
56:49 Billy Corgan? So what's the through line for you that you want people to understand?
56:52 Speaker 00 That, that be consistent. If you care about human rights, then care about human rights.
56:57 Billy Corgan? How do, how do you think then in this age of hyper propaganda that we achieve some, some agreement?
57:03 Speaker 00 Hmm. You have to be able to engage in dialogue. You can't immediately shut people down. You can't, you can't just stick to your team and reverberate in your echo chamber and hope to affect change or camaraderie.
57:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah. And for, and for anybody would have, you know, because invariably somebody's going to have a problem with me having you on. I would say this to you and to them.
57:30 Billy Corgan? Knowing the man that you are and knowing that you're willing to talk openly about these things, this is the perfect way to do that. Right?
57:36 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
57:37 Billy Corgan? You know, let you say what you want to say. It's not a speech. It's, it's a conversation. And lay it out there. For me, the stuff that affects me and I, and I am curious and personally is the decision to cross a line that you know, once you cross that line, there's no going back. Because 40 years from now, somebody's still going to be bringing up this or that.
58:02 Speaker 00 I think that the line.
58:07 Speaker 00 The line crept up on me.
58:10 Speaker 00 Does that make sense?
58:11 Billy Corgan? It does.
58:15 Speaker 00 I felt like I didn't have a choice, Billy. I, I know that everybody does have one.
58:22 Speaker 00 But my conscience wouldn't allow any other.
58:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
58:26 Speaker 00 I, I, I, you know.
58:29 Billy Corgan? Having been in certain similar situations in my life at different times, I know exactly what that feels like. It's sort of like, I can keep doing what I'm doing, but it's not true to who I am. And I'm willing to take the consequence of this decision, knowing full well that it may not work out the way that everybody would like to keep it all kind of controlled. And, and I think we're in a, in a very unique time. It's not to speak of you empathetically. It's, it's, it's mutual understanding, which is like, we're in a very interesting time where artists are under a particular kind of stress, which is like, say something, but make sure it's the right thing. And you see oftentimes in this, in this country where people who are outward leftists and, and really down for every cause. And God bless them because I grew up in Chicago. I mean, we are a lefty city. And you know that.
59:15 Billy Corgan? And I live in Highland Park, Illinois, which is 85% Jewish. You know what I mean? I'm married to Jew. My children are Jewish. I mean, I live in a liberal world and I grew up in a liberal world. But you'll see people on the left, sometimes they'll take a position which is slightly deviates from whatever the, the mob is rolling. And they'll just get, they'll, they'll, they'll cast them out faster than they can say Santa Claus, you know?
59:39 Speaker 00 Yeah.
59:40 Billy Corgan? So you see these orthodoxies being put into place and then the pressure of social media being, being to bear.
59:45 Speaker 00 Yeah. Let me tell you.
59:50 Speaker 00 The Nazis would have loved to have had social media. It's, it's, it's Goble's wet dream if he was still alive.
59:57 Billy Corgan? Let me ask you this because I think. Because there's a lot of uh smoke around uh social media and and certain words, certain phrases, certain things. What's your position on the on the position of social media, whether or not they should be combating disinformation, combating hate, you know, these are very loose terms, but the idea that social media and or governments by extension, so treated as all one kind of thing. Does there have to be some sort of curtailing? Or is it best as an open society?
1:00:34 Speaker 00 Look, free speech is absolute.
1:00:37 Billy Corgan? Okay, good. I'm with you on that.
1:00:41 Speaker 00 There are, I know there are those people who say there are no lines of any kind.
1:00:48 Speaker 00 I don't agree with that. I think that incitement to violence is a line that shouldn't be crossed.
1:00:55 Billy Corgan? Nobody should be reading death threats.
1:00:56 Speaker 00 No, no.
1:00:58 Billy Corgan? That I just don't know how that.
1:00:59 Speaker 00 No, I don't know how that became acceptable or condoned on any level. Um, you know, I I think that
1:01:08 Speaker 00 once you stifle people's speech, it goes into other back channels and it still reverberates and it becomes more nefarious. And so you're not accomplishing anything.
1:01:18 Billy Corgan? Everything's best out.
1:01:19 Speaker 00 I think everything's best out, but I think everything is best left to the court of public opinion. I think that you need more speech to counter said.
1:01:28 Billy Corgan? So if a government, uh, because obviously there are laws in place, uh, you know, that I guess are defined as antisemitisms, are you, do you support the idea that there's special statuses for certain groups? Or you think it's still best left wide open?
1:01:42 Speaker 00 It depends on the group and it depends on the level of their persecution. You know, some sects and races and are overly persecuted and they do deserve to have special.
1:01:58 Speaker 00 Protections.
1:01:59 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
1:01:59 Speaker 00 Um, you know, uh, the sad state of affairs for Jews in the world and this country and elsewhere is that we need armed guards at our synagogues just to attend them safely these days. We can't go to a community event without security details at this point. That's the reality of life for Jews. I had to spend more on my European tour in terms of security expenses than I ever have in my life, you know? And that's something I need to explain to my guys. They need to be okay with. They need to be okay with taking that hit. I feel terrible about all of it, but I can't do anything else. I can't.
1:02:41 Speaker 00 I've given my life, my soul, my heart and everything to my band, to our, to, to my brothers, to, you know, and, and, and I have no regrets whatsoever. I would do it again a hundredfold.
1:02:56 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
1:02:57 Speaker 00 Um, and I know that this has been difficult for them. I can't even imagine being in their shoes and watching what is happening.
1:03:07 Billy Corgan? So what would, what would you say to somebody who's listening to this, who vehemently opposes everything you say and could, could present a, you know, let's call it their version of, of, of oppositional fact.
1:03:20 Speaker 00 Sure.
1:03:21 Billy Corgan? Make a compelling argument otherwise and, and is just as convinced as you are. What, what do you, what, what do you say to them?
1:03:29 Speaker 00 Let's talk.
1:03:30 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:03:31 Speaker 00 Let's talk because see, here's the thing, Billy. Fact is fact. It's not disputable. It either is.
1:03:41 Billy Corgan? I think we're in a post-truth age or post factual age.
1:03:44 Speaker 00 But there is truth.
1:03:45 Billy Corgan? That's why, that's why narratives, that's why, that's why I think artists under a particular dress is because narratives in many ways have supplanted fact.
1:03:51 Speaker 00 I don't disagree with that and that's unfortunate, but fact is still fact. Facts don't care about the narrative. Facts don't care about feelings. Facts don't care about, uh, opinions. They're simply facts. They're irrefutable. You can't argue about it.
1:04:06 Billy Corgan? That's, I, I, listen, I'm, I'm a person who has had a factual life, right? And I constantly run into people who the facts mean absolutely nothing to them.
1:04:16 Speaker 00 That.
1:04:18 Speaker 00 But that doesn't take anything away.
1:04:20 Billy Corgan? Like as we sit here, we'll have a quick laugh. As we sit here, taping, you know, the big news in the NFL is that Bill Belichick was not elected to the Hall of Fame as a first ballot.
1:04:33 Billy Corgan? And of course, there's been a big hue and cry about it because how is this guy who won seven Super Bowls and eight as a coordinator? How is he not in the Hall of Fame? And then here comes, well, he did this, or we don't like this. And so then you start getting into like, well, what qualifies somebody to be a Hall of Famer?
1:04:52 Speaker 00 Hmm. Is it ethics? Or is it accomplishment?
1:04:55 Billy Corgan? So that's what I'm saying is there's a perfect example of a man who's got every fact on his side. And yet, he doesn't qualify for the most obvious place that a man of that accomplishment would enter into. And I'm not even a Bill Belichick fan.
1:05:10 Speaker 00 Well, let's go back to the beginning of the conversation.
1:05:14 Speaker 00 The incident back to the beginning.
1:05:16 Billy Corgan? Yes.
1:05:16 Speaker 00 Right? Facts didn't matter then either, did they? It's adding credence to your point.
1:05:22 Billy Corgan? I will say, as someone who pays attention to the news, it did shock me personally that normally when something horrific happens, like in Highland Park, Illinois, where I live, there was a mass shooting.
1:05:35 Speaker 00 I remember.
1:05:39 Billy Corgan? And it's particularly, of course, they're all terrible. So none is better or worse than the other. They're all terrible. But what was really interesting about this is this is a city that's a heavily liberal city. And gun control is something that they're really, you know, it's passionate about.
1:06:00 Billy Corgan? And here was an instance of a local kid getting up on a roof and firing, I think, 80 rounds into a crowd of 3,000 gathered for the Fourth of July in under a minute and killing seven and paralyzing a young boy and just a totally awful circumstance. And I don't even know where I'm going off this because I get so lost in, but what I'm saying is I'm lost in the detail of it and I'm lost in the horror of it.
1:06:30 Billy Corgan? What am I really after here?
1:06:33 Billy Corgan? Horror. Oh, here's what I'm trying to say. Sorry. Here's what I'm trying to say.
1:06:38 Billy Corgan? So I was in that community after this mass shooting. My wife and I did a fundraiser and we even did a private event for the first responders who hadn't been out since the massacre. And it was a very, very difficult set of circumstances because you, like you were saying, you deal with the real face of tragedy. The guy working next door at the bagel shop had been shot and watched his father be killed next to him because he got shot in the head. You know, like when you see the real face of tragedy, it's not a game, it's not a narrative, it's a thing. I'm getting, there's a point here, I swear.
1:07:16 Billy Corgan? So having been through something like that, obviously the situation in Israel was a scale of unspeakable horror. But because it was a mass shooting type event, right, or a mass attack, there was that sort of, there was reflection, there were vigils, there were people saying, how did we get here? And yet it seemed like after the incident on, is it July? Was it June? In Israel. It was October 7th. Thank you, October 7th. It seemed like within 24 hours, everybody blew past the, and it was like, it went right
1:08:00 Billy Corgan? into, like, it was like a football game. And I was like, this is weird because where's the reflection? Where's the, how did we get here? Where's the condemnation of something that should never happen? Right. I don't care what you believe. If it, if it had been Israel attacking Gaza in that way. Same thing. I would feel the exact same. I agree. Way. So.
1:08:28 Billy Corgan? What do you, what's your position to people who, who, who see it as basically an equal sort of thing? Does it make sense why I say that? I know you don't feel that way, but what do you say?
1:08:40 Speaker 00 I don't, but I still feel.
1:08:41 Billy Corgan? Because when you say facts, right? Because I have a lot of friends on that political side of the equation, who are constantly hitting me up with their version of it, which obviously is in complete opposition to yours. In fact, I even have one friend that lives in the camps. And, um, and is a Jew, which is interesting. So what do you say? Because when you talk about fact, it's like, I know that from my own life, that people don't live in a factual basis. And let's call it, for whatever reason, as a horrific watershed moment, bloodshed moment, that there wasn't even the kind of the normal human response of let's figure out what just happened.
1:09:25 Billy Corgan? It just immediately went into this other thing. And I've never seen that before. We didn't have that on 9/11. I, we don't normally have that in mass shootings, other than maybe the gun lobby, or the gun, anti-gun people. But it kind of makes sense. But this seemed to immediately fall into this other thing.
1:09:45 Speaker 00 Because it was planned. It was premeditated. They were ready to go with the anti-Israel protests and the protest movement the very day that the attack happened. It was geared up for it. They were preparing for it. This was part, it was the beginning of a global campaign, a global narrative.
1:10:10 Billy Corgan? Would you say it's been effective?
1:10:11 Speaker 00 Oh, it's been devastatingly effective. We are horrible at PR. We are just abysmal at it. You know, we're, we're horrible at getting our own truth out, our own humanity.
1:10:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:10:26 Speaker 00 We're, we're. And we have to be better at it and we have to be better at encouraging dialogue, at encouraging hands reaching across. I think that everyone does.
1:10:41 Billy Corgan? Do you know, I mean, he's known as a YouTuber, but he's on other, Tim Poole, also a fellow Chicagoan. You know, Tim Poole?
1:10:48 Speaker 00 I know of him.
1:10:49 Billy Corgan? So Tim's a huge YouTuber and came out of the Occupy Wall Street movement and he ended up being, you know, kind of a, I guess, a guy who hosts podcasts and a lot of political talk. And, and, and, and Tim, like, like, you know, a lot of Chicagoans grew up very liberal. I wouldn't even say he would maybe even politically identify himself on the right. But one argument he's made in the past year is he thinks that Israel is losing the propaganda war.
1:11:17 Speaker 00 He's not wrong. He's not wrong.
1:11:22 Billy Corgan? Because of, because of Gaza and because of, whether you want to say it's, whether you want to blame the Israeli government for what they've done, which obviously many people do. But also if you want to say, well, they've just been more effective at propaganda. Either way, it ends up to the-
1:11:37 Speaker 00 It's not as simple as that. They have different tactics that are working extraordinarily well for them. When you're a society that is willing to sacrifice your own people, willing, willing to sacrifice your own people, martyrdom is glorified. Okay, it's, it's, it's a mother's greatest desire to see that her son becomes a martyr one day. They have no problem, you know, being human shields for the cause.
1:12:09 Speaker 00 That's the most critical difference that you can't get past, all right? One side knows that, and Hamas has said this repeatedly. They, they, they, they are only too proud to say how willing they are to have their population sacrificed, how they're, how willing they are to have people martyred, how they know that it continues with every-
1:12:39 Speaker 00 Death with every more, with every ounce of destruction, it creates more sympathy, it creates more negative PR, it creates more opportunities for the narrative to continue to proliferate. And it's tragic beyond because these people deserve a better existence. They truly, truly do. And, you know, but
1:13:08 Speaker 00 from our position, you have an entity that is sworn to annihilate you, genocidal intentions, without a doubt,
1:13:19 Speaker 00 that is willing to martyr themselves in the process, that keeps on lobbing rockets at you, that keeps on having suicide bombings happen, that keeps on doing all the things that have been par for the course. And every time you defend yourself, you unfortunately end up having casualties as you defend yourself because they embed themselves amongst the civilian population on purpose. They set up their equipment by schools, by hospitals. They take over hospitals. They dig tunnels in schools, store military equipment in there, hide their soldiers there. Everything is meant for maximum casualties,
1:14:01 Speaker 00 for maximum destruction, for maximum effect on the global stage. And there's always somebody there with a camera to go ahead and film it. And if it's not actually happening, then they make it up. So they've seen how much it's benefited the cause. We're in a no win situation. We're in a catch 22. What the hell do we do? We just, you know what? Just go ahead and continue to fire. We'll just sit there and take it. What society, what nation on planet Earth would be okay with that? None. We're in this horrific situation where if we dare to defend ourselves, we're damned, and if we don't defend ourselves, we're damned. So what do you do?
1:14:44 Speaker 00 I, you know, I go back to what, you know, Golda Meir said way back in the day, one of the greatest prime ministers of Israel that ever lived. And it was like, you know what? Peace will come when
1:15:01 Speaker 00 The Arabs love their children more than they hate us. The thing that we won't be able to forgive. We can forgive the Arabs, you know, killing our children as difficult as it is, as devastating as that is. What we can't forgive is them forcing us to kill theirs. I'll never forget the day after 10/7. I knew exactly what was going to happen. I knew. I knew. If you look back, I posted a video right afterwards. I was devastated, not only because of what the slaughter that just occurred in Israel, and not only because a music festival was attacked and people coming for an escape and peace and unity and to enjoy the gift that music brings to everyone,
1:15:46 Speaker 00 were mercilessly murdered for no other reason than that they were Jews. You know, and you wonder, what did these people do to deserve this thing other than what has been taught in the society that attacked them? Nothing, nothing. So I said on camera, like, you forced us to do this. I know what's going to happen. You're going to force us to defend ourselves. There's going to be horrific casualties and it's going to foster and help spread antisemitism on a global level. And it did, and it is, and it still is.
1:16:26 Speaker 00 And it's an equation that Israelis and Jews haven't figured out a way to combat. Because what do we do? We just allow ourselves to be annihilated.
1:16:36 Billy Corgan? Do you, I'm trying to ask this the right way. Do you think criticism of Israel's policies in Gaza is helpful? Or because some people, as you know, and you might be one of them, some people, they can't hear any criticism because.
1:16:54 Speaker 00 I criticize the Israeli government all the time. All the time. I think that certain things are done out of ego and out of and are brash and are not well thought through. And, you know, there, there, we have our own political issues in Israel to deal with.
1:17:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:17:14 Speaker 00 The respective parties that that are just as partisan.
1:17:16 Billy Corgan? But you know Gaza is the Gaza is the touch point for a lot of the, a lot of the energy, particularly here in the West.
1:17:22 Speaker 00 Agreed.
1:17:23 Billy Corgan? And and your and your your public squabbles with, whether it's the Tom Morellos of the world, or kneecap, or even Roger Waters, they're they're bait.
1:17:33 Speaker 00 My favorite.
1:17:34 Billy Corgan? We'll talk about Roger in a second, but um, so the reason I ask you is, is, is, I'm not trying to put you on the spot about Gaza.
1:17:44 Speaker 00 You can. That's part of why I'm here, Billy. It's okay.
1:17:47 Billy Corgan? So, so do you have any critique of of Israel's, I don't even know what you call it, incursions into Gaza? What do you have any critique?
1:17:56 Speaker 00 Do I have any critique of their response to October 7? I have a critique that October 7th happened in the first place. It was one of the worst security failures in the country's history. And people aren't being held to account. It's like people seem to forget about that. You know, that's the biggest issue I have, that it was allowed to happen to begin with. Secondarily, if, when they went in, go in, go in hard, finish and leave. You know, unfortunately, it dragged on and on and on. And I'm not a soldier, and I haven't been there, and I can't begin to imagine what
1:18:39 Speaker 00 they're experiencing or what they're going through. And I'm certainly not privy to the moves of the 3D chess games that happen all over the world, whether it's in Israel or in or anywhere else. But I know that either way, it was going to be a cluster. There was no way around that. There was going to be massive civilian casualties because when you're trying to fight a genocidal terrorist entity that embeds themselves in an urban landscape and specifically hides behind their women, children and innocents. Innocents are going to die when you're trying to actually eradicate them. This cycle of violence has gone on for too long. It's gone on for too long.
1:19:24 Speaker 00 2005, Israel withdrew everyone from Gaza. We had settlements in Gaza. We had greenhouses, plantations, beautiful growing facilities and farms. Out of spite, when we gave up the territory to say, okay, here you go. Here's Gaza, you guys govern yourselves, you can do what you want. They were destroyed. All that infrastructure destroyed, just out of spite. Then the Palestinian people elected, the Gazans elected Hamas to rule over them, who has not only brutalized the Palestinian people themselves, but has used them as a tool for this cycle of violence over and over and over again.
1:20:08 Speaker 00 I want nothing more than for there to be modernization, for there to be a community, for there to be unity, for there to be dialogue, for there to be some sort of a means of breaking through all this vicious cycle.
1:20:28 Billy Corgan? So let's talk about Roger Waters for a second. You know, I've worked a little bit with Roger, so I know him a little bit personally.
1:20:36 Speaker 00 I'm sorry.
1:20:40 Billy Corgan? But I want to come at it from a slightly different angle. Because I'm curious if you have any reflection on my observation. So my observation is, I don't think it's a stretch to say that the defining moment in Roger's life is his father is killed in World War II. It's in the wall, you know, he's made more than one record about it.
1:21:06 Billy Corgan? And he might balk at the word trauma, but it seems like that would be very traumatic.
1:21:13 Billy Corgan? You know, if it happened to anybody. And, you know, a few years back, Roger was very critical of Radiohead for going to play again in Israel. And then since then, Rogers made some very strong statements against Israel, including to the point where he's now, I think, estranged from some of his, at least one of his bandmates, because they don't agree with this position. But what I'm asking, I guess, is sort of a slightly different question and maybe a nicer way to end this.
1:21:43 Billy Corgan? Which is,
1:21:46 Billy Corgan? it's not a stretch for me to understand why someone who went through what Rogers been through, for him to to look on in horror at the Gazan civilian population issues. And I've seen these crazy numbers and, you know, is there an officially recognized number by the state of Israel for?
1:22:05 Speaker 00 It's still, you know, it's still being discerned, but let's go ahead and play devil's advocate. Let's say the number is the 70,000 or the 75,000. That the Gaza Health Ministry claims. How many of those were combatants? How many of those died from, you know, rockets that were launched by Hamas?
1:22:24 Billy Corgan? Let's say one is too many. I'm not assigning guilt. Let's just say one is too many.
1:22:28 Speaker 00 No doubt.
1:22:28 Billy Corgan? It makes sense to me that a man who grew up in the shadow of World War II, lost his daddy in a war, has really suffered the consequence of the pain of losing someone.
1:22:40 Speaker 00 That he would be hypersensitive to a scenario like that?
1:22:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:22:43 Speaker 00 I agree. Well, then why isn't he hypersensitive to what's going on in Iran? Why did he defend the Iranian regime? Why did he go ahead and claim that, ah, you know?
1:22:52 Billy Corgan? So I was looking for you to have some mutual understanding with Roger.
1:22:57 Speaker 00 You know, here's the thing, Billy.
1:23:00 Speaker 00 I grew up on Pink Floyd. I loved Pink Floyd. It was such a massive betrayal, not just to me, but Jews everywhere. When he went in the direction that he did. And it wasn't just two years ago. He's been doing this for a long time.
1:23:17 Speaker 00 Roger has a penchant for dictators, for the worst mothers on planet Earth. Roger just cozies right up to. He has no problem whatsoever. You know, I, this whole-
1:23:30 Billy Corgan? See, my, my attempted peacemaking failed.
1:23:32 Speaker 00 No, not with that one, dude. He's, he's just such a hypocrite. He's a hypocrite. He's not for human rights. He's for this weird dictator-driven socialist, you know, I don't even understand what he's trying to stand for.
1:23:50 Billy Corgan? But, so, so my attempt failed. So let's, let's say, let's try one, one other tact.
1:23:57 Billy Corgan? So at least as you sit here today in, in 2026,
1:24:02 Billy Corgan? you remain open to the idea that if someone can present you with a set of facts, you remain open that there's different perspectives to have, and you encourage that dialogue.
1:24:11 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
1:24:12 Billy Corgan? You want that dialogue.
1:24:13 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
1:24:13 Billy Corgan? You're not closed off.
1:24:14 Speaker 00 Never. You close off and that's the end of anything.
1:24:18 Billy Corgan? So if Roger Waters called you tomorrow and said, let's sit down and talk, you talk to him?
1:24:22 Speaker 00 I'd have to punch him first.
1:24:25 Billy Corgan? I thought you were a man of peace.
1:24:27 Speaker 00 Hmm, until I get, you know, past a certain-
1:24:30 Billy Corgan? I guess, I, I'm not, I'm not trying to call you out as much as say that, at least from my perspective, you know, the price of peace is very high, as you know.
1:24:40 Speaker 00 Listen, I'd be willing to sit down and have a conversation with just about anybody, except someone that can no longer be reached. And I'm very, very convinced that Roger Waters can no longer be reached.
1:24:55 Billy Corgan? But, but, but to, to depersonalize it about Roger, then you could say that about a lot of people on the other side. Cause I, I know people, and I'm sure you have people in your life, that it doesn't matter. They're so convinced, if, if your argument is here and their argument is here.
1:25:09 Speaker 00 And, and even that being said, Billy, I'd still be willing to sit down and talk with them.
1:25:14 Billy Corgan? Okay, well, that's refreshing.
1:25:15 Speaker 00 Okay, no matter how-
1:25:19 Speaker 00 Passionate I may be about my position. I know that the only way that anything gets resolved is by dialogue.
1:25:28 Billy Corgan? Well, that's why I wanted to talk to you because, because, because I think the minute we start sort of arbitrarily deciding who gets to talk, who gets to.
1:25:36 Speaker 00 I think that's not our place. I think it's our.
1:25:39 Billy Corgan? That's kind of my own self-serving thing for anybody who doesn't understand is that's why I want to talk to you.
1:25:45 Speaker 00 Appreciate it.
1:25:46 Billy Corgan? Because I want to understand and I'm not afraid to ask the question and also understand there's another side and try to figure out my version from a place of innocence or naivete. But as an artist and as a fellow artist, I'm so glad to hear you say that you stand for that because that's, that's at the heart of what we do.
1:26:05 Speaker 00 You have to. It's the only hope. The minute that you close off, there's no solution for anything. So even to someone like Roger Waters, yes, I would be open to dialogue. I'm open to dialogue with anyone.
1:26:18 Billy Corgan? So, so if, if, if there's a, and I'm sure there's at least one, if there's a fan who can no longer listen disturbed probably the way you can no longer listen to Pink Floyd. You're cool with that. If at the end of the day, you're like, look, I believe in what I believe. I respect you. Don't understand. What's your take on all that?
1:26:34 Speaker 00 People were already not listening to us for different reasons anyway.
1:26:38 Billy Corgan? Well, God bless on that.
1:26:39 Speaker 00 You know, look, I, a long time ago, I accepted that not everyone's going to love us. That not, that not everyone's going to love me and that's okay. I'm all right with that. I'm at peace with that. What I wouldn't be at peace with, what I wouldn't be able to go to sleep at night with is knowing that I didn't speak to what's true to my heart, that I didn't stand up for my convictions and that I didn't
1:27:06 Speaker 00 dishonor myself by not representing who I really am. And I.
1:27:12 Billy Corgan? That's why I think a conversation like this is valuable.
1:27:20 Billy Corgan? To talk about the things, the specific facts and the positions and the things, that's something that's like, I find myself inadequate at, but where I feel like we can have that conversation, at least you and I, is, is what is the responsibility of an artist?
1:27:39 Billy Corgan? Do they have a responsibility?
1:27:40 Speaker 00 I think they do.
1:27:41 Billy Corgan? And then, and then, in many ways, us being sort of drafted into these bigger things that are certainly above us. Now, in your case, you're a man of conviction, and you've aligned yourself with that. In my case, oftentimes, I'm like, I don't want to get into this because this is too stupid over here for me. And I'm sure you deal with a lot of that, too, where it's like, it's like, if you're gonna make an argument, at least make an intelligent one, and we can have an intelligent argument.
1:28:05 Speaker 00 There's not a lot of that these days.
1:28:06 Billy Corgan? No, but when it's devolved into, you know, you know, good guy, bad guy, you know, it's wrestling, right? It's just, you know, that's, that's really the end of the story. So that's why I brought up Roger was because I...
1:28:20 Speaker 00 I'm happy to have dialogue with anyone, even...
1:28:24 Billy Corgan? You said you wanted a punch.
1:28:25 Speaker 00 I do want to. Maybe by the end of the dialogue, we both won't want to. I don't know. The only way to diffuse that feeling is by dialogue, isn't it? I mean, you can't, you can't lie about how someone else, based on what they've said about you, your people, your heritage, your country, you know, about what they make you feel. Somebody that's attacked like that, they're gonna foster those kinds of feelings. Yeah, I still have that feeling. It's funny, we were at the Sunset Marquis together, like, it was, it was not too long ago, I was here for something. And Roger was there,
1:29:09 Speaker 00 too. And I guess he got word that I was there as well. And all of a sudden, Roger, who was walking around all by himself that day, suddenly was surrounded by five or six really, really big security guards. Oh my God, well, I guess there goes the chance for dialogue right there. We're not gonna talk to each other. So, look, you can't help but automatically feel defensive and combative when everything that you've...
1:29:38 Speaker 00 Growing up with and everything that you love and everyone that you've come to know and and and value is questioned.
1:29:46 Billy Corgan? Well, what I'm struck by talking today, and we didn't talk before this conversation, is that you are open. And I think that's what I would ask people to do is to understand that you're willing to talk about these things openly. That should be commended, even if you disagree. And then secondarily, that you remain open. And that's the key to me.
1:30:05 Speaker 00 That's the only hope.
1:30:06 Billy Corgan? I don't get the sense you're you're convicted for sure. But you I do feel like you you will listen to the other side of the argument.
1:30:14 Speaker 00 I'm convicted, but I'm also convicted to try and.
1:30:23 Speaker 00 You you spoke about music. You spoke about what is our job? What's our mission? What are we supposed to do? How do we wield it? This gift? This responsibility? That's what I think it is. If you're blessed with this, if you can enter into an arena full of people and make 20,000 people forget about the of the world for a little while, make them feel powerful, make them feel like they're a family, make remove the hatred, remove all of the narratives, remove the division for just a little while. It's an amazing thing. Music is the most cohesive, uniting element in existence.
1:31:05 Billy Corgan? See, this maybe this is a good place, Dan. Have you had those moments? And I've had them in the last few years where I look out and, you know, 10,000, 20,000, 50,000 people. And I think, how many people in this audience would I disagree with or they would disagree with me if they really knew how I felt about any given thing? It could be anything, a pop star, to the history of rock and roll, to politics. And yet, and yet, I look out and I see everybody happy. And they're having a good time. And if we could bottle that.
1:31:38 Speaker 00 Amen, brother. That's, to be honest.
1:31:43 Speaker 00 That's the main reason why I still do what I do. I love being able to free people from their burden. That's, that's my drug of drugs. I, I, I love that. And that's, I guess, part of the reason why I get so passionate about who people who abuse this platform, you know, who'd use it to sow division, who use it to, you know, spread hate and instill fear. When it can be such a bonding cohesive element, when it can be such a means of, of unity and empowerment, it, it just seems like such a waste to me.
1:32:21 Billy Corgan? Can you envision a time where we will have peace in the Middle East?
1:32:24 Speaker 00 I do, and I can. And I think it starts with decapitating the head of the snake. I think that the Iranian regime and their cohorts, and the Qataris are certainly part of that. I would put Erdogan and the, and, and the Turkish regime in the same categorization. And unfortunately, the Saudis are starting to creep that way too lately. I think that if the head of the snake is decapitated, then their proxies lose their funding, they lose their backing. And if the Persian people are allowed to rise again and truly be who they are meant to be, we will see a new era of peace in the Middle East.
1:33:08 Speaker 00 I think that the head of the snake being decapitated is the key to everything. And I think this is a incredibly important moment in history. And I hope that our elected officials don't it up because it's not going to come.
1:33:25 Billy Corgan? The minute you said, the minute you, you, you expect elected officials.
1:33:28 Speaker 00 They probably will.
1:33:29 Billy Corgan? Probably will. Right. Great to see you.
1:33:31 Speaker 00 Appreciate you, Bill. Thanks for having me.
1:33:33 Billy Corgan? Thank you.
Previous Billy Idol and Steve Stevens | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Next Jeff "Skunk" Baxter | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Page updated October 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated