Pod Insights Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society Catherine Howard | Secret Lives of the Six Wives About this episode Henry VIII called her his 'rose without a thorn', but the teenage Catherine Howard was to fall out of favour less than 18 months after becoming Queen of England.
Out of all of Henry's wives it could be argued that the young queen, who was a cousin of Anne Boleyn, is most deserving of our sympathy.
How did her past come back to haunt her? What would it have been like for this young woman to be with Henry VIII - an older man with a stinky leg ulcer? And what was the truth behind the scandal of her downfall?
In the fifth and penultimate episode of our limited series, Secret Wives of the Six Wives, Kate is joined by Tudor export Nicola Tallis, to help us find out more about the young woman who had to deal with so much drama and tragedy in her short life.
This episode was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.
All music from Epidemic Sounds/All3 Media.
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0:00 Kate Lister? Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.
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2:26 Kate Lister? Hello my lovely betwixters, it's me, Kate Lister. Welcome to Betwixter Sheets. I'm thrilled that you have managed to drop by once again. And if this is your first time listening, well, extra special welcome. We will budge up and make some room for you. But before we can continue with the podcast, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adult things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. Do you feel safer? I feel safer. Right, let's crack on.
2:56 Kate Lister? Being a Tudor queen was very difficult. I mean, you got jewels and nice things, but wow, it was strict. And if you were one of Henry VIII's wives, well, then the rules just meant doing exactly what he said, bending to every whim and desire, no matter how airbrained or deranged. But as history tells us, that didn't always go to plan.
3:25 Kate Lister? The women in Henry VIII's life were smart.
3:28 Speaker 05 She was a woman who had her own voice and wasn't afraid to use it.
3:33 Kate Lister? Powerful.
3:34 Speaker 05 She wanted to send Henry the dead king's body as like a war trophy.
3:40 Kate Lister? And rebellious.
3:41 Speaker 05 She was a definite seductress who knew exactly how to play Henry.
3:47 Kate Lister? But they could also be naive.
3:49 Speaker 05 She is well aware that there is someone trying to get to the bottom of her previous life and she slips up.
3:55 Kate Lister? And downright unlucky.
3:57 Speaker 05 I think that there was no way that her life was ever going to be saved.
4:02 Kate Lister? Who were these women that entered the volatile world of the Tudor court? They're known for their individual fates. Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived. But we're finding out who these six women really were and why there is so much more to them than just their husband, a fat ginger cereal killer with an oversized codpiece and a penchant for jousting. Join me in this mini-series as we explore the secret lives of the six wives.
4:40 Speaker 06 What do you look for in a man? Oh, money, of course.
4:43 Speaker 07 You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.
4:45 Speaker 06 I make perfect compliments of whatever my boss needs by just turning him up and pushing the button.
4:58 Speaker 07 Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, darling.
5:09 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex Scandal in Society with me, Kate Lister. After that little smidge of a hiccup, that little blip that was the marriage to Anne of Cleves, and honestly, props to that woman for getting a sweet deal out of it, but Henry is once again on the lookout for a wife. Oh, God. And poor Catherine Howard was next. She was a teenager, a mere slip of a girl when she became queen, and wow, talk about being thrown into the deep end. Possibly the most scandalous of the six wives, yes, I am looking at you, Anne Boleyn, Catherine's short life and marriage was filled with sex scandal and, well, tragedy.
5:54 Kate Lister? Who was Catherine Howard? How on earth did she find herself suddenly married to Henry? What had happened in her short seventeen years had come back to haunt her, and how did this tragic story unravel for her? Honestly, I've got a real soft spot for Catherine, I really do. In this fifth and penultimate episode of our miniseries, Secret Lives of Six Wives, I am joined once again by the wonderful author and Tudor expert Dr Nicola Tallis to help us get to know this young woman a little bit better. Without further ado, let's crack on.
6:32 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Nicola Tallis. How are you doing?
6:38 Speaker 05 I'm really good, Kate. Glad to be back with you again.
6:42 Kate Lister? I'm thoroughly enjoying this mini-series on the wives of Henry VIII.
6:46 Speaker 05 Yeah, me too. It's been really fun, sort of, you know, getting rid of a few myths and shedding some different light on these women.
6:55 Kate Lister? The things that I've learnt from you so far, Catherine of Aragon, stoic in defeat, a bit quite scrappy, more scrappy than I thought that she was. She was not going down with the fight, that one. Anne Boleyn, religious reformer, she was into that. And very, very intellectual, but all the things that Henry fancied about her suddenly became a problem when she was a wife. I thought that was really interesting. Oh, Jane Seymour. Oh, poor Jane. But as you pointed out, bit of a player as well. Like, she was in the game. She wasn't some sort of simpering victim of all of this. She kind of knew what she was doing. It's just unfortunate she died in childbirth. Anne of Cleves played a blinder.
7:40 Kate Lister? We learnt that last time. Well done. Came from not obscurity but low nobility in Germany to be the queen for six months. And then quite happily went, yeah, all right, I'll be the king's quote-unquote sister and go and sit in this castle with loads of jewels. Is that a good summary so far?
7:57 Speaker 05 I think that's an excellent summary, yeah.
8:00 Kate Lister? Because today we've got to look at, I'll tell you, she's one of my favourite, but she's, I think she's the one that I find most intriguing. Catherine Howard and what happened to her. So to set the stage, Henry VIII is married briefly to Anne of Cleves. And he's bitching and whinging that she's not good-looking, she smells horrible, don't fancy her. It's giving proper, like, teenage passive-aggressive, "I don't want to do it" energy about the whole thing, till eventually it's annulled. But he's already got his eye on Catherine Howard at this point. So can you tell me who Catherine Howard is? And how she even ended up in the eye of the king?
8:41 Speaker 05 Yeah, so Catherine Howard is actually a cousin of Anne Boleyn.
8:46 Kate Lister? First red flag.
8:48 Speaker 05 Yeah, I know, right? And she actually comes from one of the most prominent families in England, the Howard family, because she is also the niece of the Duke of Norfolk, who is the premier peer at Henry's court. And she's really catapulted into the spotlight when, probably through the auspices of the Duke of Norfolk, she is appointed to the household of Anne of Cleves. So she comes to court where she catches Henry's eye while she is serving his fourth queen. And it all goes from there.
9:29 Kate Lister? And she was very young, wasn't she? She was a teenager.
9:33 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah. So we don't know for sure exactly when Catherine was born, but yeah, she probably was a teenager, probably about seventeen years old at this time. And it's a huge change of circumstance for her because even though she does come from this important family, she has been raised by her step-grandmother, the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, away from the court in a household full of other young girls. So yeah, suddenly she's given this important position of lady-in-waiting to Anne of Cleves and is suddenly surrounded by all of the glitz and glamour of Henry VIII's court.
10:15 Kate Lister? And when do we know that Henry started making moves on Catherine?
10:21 Speaker 05 Well, definitely we know that he is interested in her by June fifteen forty, so a month before the annulment of his marriage to Anne of Cleves. By that point, Catherine and the king's notice of Catherine has started to draw comment from people at court who've, yeah, who've started noticing that he is very attracted to this much younger, very pretty young woman. And she in turn seems to have fully encouraged his attention.
10:52 Kate Lister? What do we know about Catherine? What was she like as a person? I mean, what are any of us like at seventeen? We're idiots. But do we have any idea of what she was like?
11:02 Speaker 05 Well, apparently quite promiscuous. Um, she, yeah, I know. But again, this whole idea of her marrying Henry VIII would have been something that she would never have dreamed of as a young girl. So as I mentioned, she goes to live in the household of the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk to be educated. But the Duchess was pretty lax as a guardian, didn't really keep a close eye on Catherine, who was just one of many girls there. And we know that when Catherine was very young, she became engaged in this kind of flirtation with her music master, a guy called Henry Mannix.
11:45 Speaker 05 And the Dowager Duchess actually catches Catherine with Mannix and boxes his ears, so we're told. And that's not a great start. But then there's another gentleman in the household called Francis Dearam, who seems to have formed an attachment to Catherine. And before long, that relationship seems to have been a fully blown sexual relationship. So from an early age, from her early teens, Catherine is very much exposed to this highly sexualised world.
12:23 Kate Lister? Okay, so why is this a problem then? I mean, all right, so she's sowing her wild oats. She's a youngster. She doesn't know the king. She's never met the king. No one said to her at any point, you're going to be married to the king. She has no reason at all to not do these things if she wants to, apart from, you know, the societal expectation of the day. But it's not like she's betrothed to him. So what is the issue here?
12:47 Speaker 05 Well, the issue is that by the time Catherine comes to Henry VIII's notice, none of her sexual past is disclosed to Henry. So as far as he is concerned, and in fact, as far as most of her family are concerned, Catherine is a virgin. And let's not forget that at this time, the most valuable asset that a woman could possess was her virginity and the idea that she was coming to a marriage, completely untouched, completely pure. So that isn't the case for Catherine, but Henry doesn't know that at this time.
13:26 Kate Lister? Do you think anyone would have asked her? Like, in the courtship process, when it was kind of looking more likely that Henry was going to ask this, this girl to marry him, that somebody would have said to her at some point, "What's your sexual history here, love?"
13:38 Speaker 05 No, not really. I think, so the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, she obviously knows things that have gone on in Catherine's past, but she never discloses that either. But no, I don't think it ever occurred to anybody to say, I mean, she's young at this point, there isn't any hint of scandal attached to her at this point. Like, why would that be a thing that you would even ask?
14:02 Kate Lister? What makes it even sadder is looking at it through modern eyes, like, these past experiences, like, they sound quite abusive. Like, the thing with Maddox, who was a music teacher, like, she was only, like, 12. Today, we, we would say that that was quite clearly abuse, that's child abuse.
14:21 Speaker 05 Yeah, most definitely, yeah. When you view it from a 21st century perspective, it's pretty horrific. And the fact that Catherine didn't really have anyone who was looking out for her at this point and who was taking an interest in her welfare is quite sad. She was largely alone and it must have left her incredibly confused, not knowing who she could turn to, or not feeling she had anyone to turn to, and nobody to guide her.
14:51 Kate Lister? It's such a mess already. So how does it go from Henry VIII fancying somebody, which she does all the time, and having mistresses, to actually, this is wife material? That's an interesting transition. Why didn't he just keep her as a mistress?
15:07 Speaker 05 Well, that's a good question, but I think really he wants to free himself from Anne of Cleves. Of course, he doesn't like Anne of Cleves at all. And Henry needs more male children.
15:22 Kate Lister? Oh, we're back to this again, yeah.
15:23 Speaker 05 We're back to this. This is a really pressing point in Henry's life, is this production of having sons. And he's made it clear that his marriage with Anne of Cleves hasn't been consummated. There's no chance of him having any sons with her. But he does feel that he can get it up with someone else and have sons with someone else. And so Catherine seems like the ideal candidate because Henry's physically attracted to her. And he needs sons. She's young enough to produce them. And so it seems like a very obvious choice. When he's made that decision to free himself from Anne of Cleves, he needs to make sure that there's someone waiting, someone in the wings,
16:08 Speaker 05 with whom he can start trying for boys again.
16:18 Kate Lister? I'll be back with Catherine and Nicola after the short break.
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19:58 Kate Lister? I wonder if the people around him thought this was a good idea, or if they looked at like the 17 year old Catherine Howard and just thought, ugh, maybe not.
20:05 Speaker 05 Well, Catherine's uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, definitely thinks it's a really, really good idea.
20:10 Kate Lister? Of course he does.
20:10 Speaker 05 He's definitely, I mean, he hasn't learned anything from his first niece, Anne Boleyn, losing her head, clearly, because he very much pushes Catherine in Henry's direction and, you know, he's instructing her and, and telling her what she needs to do, that she needs to restore the pride of the family. So there's a lot of pressure on Catherine as well. But yeah, she is very, very young. There is a huge age difference between them and that whole idea for Catherine of marrying Henry can't have been very enticing for her.
20:48 Kate Lister? Not really. And she's good luck, isn't she? She's a pretty thing.
20:51 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah. So what's quite unusual, I guess, is that we don't actually have any authenticated portraits of Catherine. We have, I know, so we have images of her or images that we think are her. But other than that, we're just reliant on descriptions of her. And yes, she is believed to be pretty, well-formed, quite short apparently as well, but certainly she has these characteristics that physically really, really appeal to Henry.
21:25 Kate Lister? Okay. So he's got the hots for her. The marriage is set up. Was it a happy marriage before it, before it wasn't? Like, what was, what was, did he manage to consummate this wedding? Or was he running around whinging again?
21:40 Speaker 05 No, he does consummate this marriage. Poor Catherine.
21:44 Kate Lister? Poor Catherine.
21:44 Speaker 05 And, and I think. Despite the fact that physically by this point, Henry is much older than Catherine, you know, his health is physically in decline, he's got this ulcer which makes him bad tempered, which smells and which, you know, isn't particularly nice to Catherine. She does a really good job of hiding any distaste. She puts a brave front on it. And I think that the reason for this is that she really liked the idea of being queen and she enjoyed the practical side of being queen and the visual side of being queen
22:27 Speaker 05 and the attention because she hadn't had much attention while she was growing up. And suddenly she is Queen of England. She's able to dance morning, noon and night if she wants to. She's been given the best food, the best wine, all of these beautiful clothes, all of these magnificent jewels, so all of these trappings of luxury. And I think that that makes Catherine very much prepared to put her brave face on it and smile when perhaps she might not otherwise have done.
23:03 Kate Lister? Did she ever get pregnant?
23:05 Speaker 05 Possibly. There is a suggestion that she may have been pregnant and that she might have had a miscarriage. We don't know for sure. There's certainly some hint that Catherine herself may have believed herself to be pregnant. But yeah, if that is the case, nothing ever came of it.
23:22 Kate Lister? So this could have continued of her just pretending that she's enamored of the king and enjoying being queen and just being, you know, just sort of having a bit of fun. And Henry was clearly, he seems to have really liked her as well. He doesn't seem to have taken against her, does he?
23:38 Speaker 05 No, he absolutely adored her. He showered her with presents. He gave her pretty much free rein. And although he wasn't able to dance anymore and partake in all the entertainments at court, he really enjoyed watching Catherine do that. And he loves basically having this younger woman on his arm that he could show off. She was pretty much like a prize trophy wife.
24:04 Kate Lister? So how does it go wrong then? Because this could have continued. This could have been it.
24:08 Speaker 05 This could have been the one.
24:09 Kate Lister? Got his little arm candy, but what goes wrong?
24:12 Speaker 05 Well, what goes wrong is that in fifteen forty one Catherine and Henry go on this progress up north and whilst Catherine and Henry are away, back in London, news comes to light of her conduct before her marriage and this is revealed to Henry when he returns back to London.
24:35 Kate Lister? Where does it come from? Who's saying what? Who, who grasped?
24:39 Speaker 05 Yeah, so it's actually a woman who had been part of the household of Catherine's grandmother, the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, and had shared a room with Catherine at one point. And she comes along and says, basically, I'm really troubled by this. I'm really troubled by this knowledge and now I feel that it's the right time for me to share this. Did you know that actually Catherine Howard, she had a full-blown sexual relationship with this guy Francis Dearam, who, oh yes, I've just noticed Francis Dearam is now serving in Catherine's household as queen. He's now her secretary. And yeah, this has happened.
25:23 Speaker 05 That comes to light. Francis Dearam had basically blackmailed Catherine as well after she became queen to become a member of her household. You know, he said he would keep quiet as long as he was paid for it. And that panicked Catherine. So yeah, so this knowledge all comes to light that Catherine hasn't quite been as pure and chaste as she said she has before her marriage. And with that, the news of the affair with the music teacher also comes up. But then there's further scandal because it emerges that after her marriage to Henry VIII, Catherine has also become embroiled in some kind of affair with one of Henry's closest and most favourite gentleman, Thomas Culpepper.
26:12 Speaker 05 Yeah.
26:12 Kate Lister? Who blabbed? Why, why would you feel the need to, could have just shut up? And the whole course of English history would have been completely different. Why would somebody feel the need to reveal this information? Like, you had your chance. Shut up. I feel very angry that this person did that. I don't know why, just.
26:31 Speaker 05 Yeah, but it's jealousy. They've seen how Catherine's gone on to do quite well for herself. And they want a slice of the action. So, yeah.
26:40 Kate Lister? It's pulling people down, isn't it? Right, okay. So the shit's hit the fan. So who's investigating what? And presumably by, when this first comes to light, Catherine and Henry have no idea about this. So who is behind the scenes investigating?
26:54 Speaker 05 So the chief investigator at this point is Thomas Cranmer, who is Henry's Archbishop of Canterbury. So it's him who is told of Catherine's misconduct before her marriage. And it's he who looks into what's going on. And Henry gives him permission to have a chat with Catherine to try and find out what's going on. And to begin with, Catherine is very reluctant to say anything, of course, why would you be? But gradually, more and more comes to light, more people who were in Catherine's household during her childhood, during her teenage years are questioned, more and more of the story starts to unfold.
27:38 Speaker 05 And then eventually it is Catherine herself who really puts her foot in it by mentioning Thomas Culpepper.
27:46 Kate Lister? Why did she do that? Why did she offer that piece of information up?
27:50 Speaker 05 I think it was just a moment of naivety and pure kind of panic at her situation, where she becomes so overwhelmed with what's going on. And she can't really keep track of what she said at various points. So Cranmer is questioning her, she is under this intense scrutiny. She is well aware that there is someone trying to get to the bottom of her previous life before she has become queen. And I think she just slips up.
28:21 Kate Lister? And what does she? Say about him?
28:23 Speaker 05 She mentions that Cole Pepper has shown an interest in her. She also mentions that she has been engaging in these meetings with Cole Pepper, although says that they haven't gone any further than words. And also mentions the fact that Anne Boleyn's former sister-in-law, Lady Rochford, has been aiding and abetting these meetings. So Lady Rochford is a member of Catherine's household. She's serving her as a lady in waiting. And that Lady Rochford has also been arranging for Catherine to meet with Thomas Cole Pepper secretly. And when Catherine and Henry were on this progress in the North in 1541,
29:06 Speaker 05 Lady Rochford was sent ahead, apparently, by Catherine to all of the various places they were staying to try and work out where the best places for Catherine and Cole Pepper to meet would be. And in one occasion, they even meet in a toilet. Who does that?
29:21 Kate Lister? Oh, no one who's not misbehaving, that's for sure.
29:25 Speaker 05 No.
29:25 Kate Lister? Do you think that they were having sex? Or do you think they were just meeting in a toilet for a chat?
29:29 Speaker 05 I don't think that they were having sex. I don't think it went as far as that.
29:34 Kate Lister? It's gone far enough, though, hasn't it?
29:36 Speaker 05 Yeah, I mean, the fact that you're actually meeting another man when you're Queen of England, you're married, and that there's no one else in the room at the time is a bit suspicious. I think that there were possibly intentions to have sex there, most definitely. And, you know, Catherine even wrote Thomas Cole Pepper this letter that still survives in which she signs herself, yours as long as life endures. So there's clearly this emotional attachment between them there as well, definitely.
30:14 Kate Lister? I'll be back with Catherine and Nicola after the short break.
30:34 Speaker 03 Hi folks, this is Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. And I'm here to suggest that you host Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are, as usual, no antibiotics ever in their meat department, so carve up turkey and spiral cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All of their fabulous, delectable pies are made with no high fructose corn syrup. Where else are you going to find that? Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market.
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31:56 Kate Lister? Do you think she'd have got away with it if it was just the fact that she wasn't a virgin when she married Henry? Do you think that they'd have still taken her head for that? I mean, it sounds like the Thomas Culpepper thing, which I think is a bit harsh because like this is, she's flirting with him, basically. This is kind of like an emotional affair. But do you think she would have got away with it? Was it, were it not for the Culpepper stuff?
32:18 Speaker 05 Possibly, I think that Catherine wasn't smart enough to recognise, maybe not smart enough is a bit cruel and a bit unfair, but.
32:28 Kate Lister? She's very young, she's too naive.
32:30 Speaker 05 Naive, that's the, that's the best way of describing it, yeah. I think she was too naive to recognise that actually if she had admitted to Henry all of this stuff that had gone on prior to their marriage, then she probably could have saved her life because it wasn't illegal to do any of that. And her marriage to Henry would have just been able to have been annulled perhaps because she'd had these relationships with men prior. But I think Catherine was so panicked and distressed. She didn't have anyone to advise her. Unfortunately, everything came tumbling out, everything
33:09 Speaker 05 got beyond her control and she just couldn't get a grip on what she was saying and what she was telling to who at any given time.
33:18 Kate Lister? So how did Henry react to this then? And whose job was it to actually sit him down and go, oh, we've got some news for you?
33:25 Speaker 05 Yeah, I mean, that was left to the poor Thomas Cranmer and he was so worried about doing it face to face that he wrote the news of Catherine's misconduct in a note that he left in the chapel for Henry to find.
33:40 Kate Lister? God.
33:40 Speaker 05 I mean, yeah, that, poor Henry. I have to say poor Henry by this, this point because he was genuinely really besotted by Catherine. So I feel sorry from him, for him from that perspective because he really loved her. Everything before and after that, no, absolutely, he's got no sympathy. But he was totally heartbroken because he really genuinely believed Catherine was his rose without a thorn. He really thought that she was the wife who wasn't going to let him down, who would comfort him in his old age, who he also really fancied. So he was devastated and he refused to see Catherine,
34:21 Speaker 05 which really distressed her. But he, I think that this was a tactic because Henry knew that if he saw Catherine and gave her an opportunity to try and explain face to face, probably his attitude towards her would soften. And I think he was too worried by that. He knew that she still had this really strong physical and emotional pull on him.
34:44 Kate Lister? The news has been broken, it's all gone tits up. Where is Catherine at this point? Is she in the Tower yet?
34:49 Speaker 05 No, she's not in the Tower. So to begin with, she was kept in her rooms at Hampton Court. And then she was taken to Scion House, or Scion Abbey as it was then, on what was then the outskirts of London. And there she was kept whilst investigations were carried out, whilst Kramer continued to dig into her life. And it's only in February 1542 that she is taken to the Tower of London. And by that point, I think she pretty much knew what was coming.
35:24 Kate Lister? Oh, God. Did she have a trial? Was there, was there a trial?
35:27 Speaker 05 No, she didn't have a trial. There was no trial. Yeah, exactly. No chance to publicly defend herself. And what could she say in any case by that point? She'd, all of the details of her life before Henry and post Henry with Thomas Culpepper had already come spilling out. So, no, she wasn't given a trial. By this point also, Culpepper and Dearam had both been executed as traitors.
35:57 Kate Lister? Oh, God.
35:58 Speaker 05 It's not looking great for Catherine.
36:00 Kate Lister? Were they tortured as well into confessing?
36:03 Speaker 05 There's some suggestion that that may have happened in Francis Dearam's case, not Culpepper's. But yeah, possibly with Dearam that that may have happened, yeah.
36:13 Kate Lister? So she's in the Tower when they get executed. I can't even imagine what this, what Kidd is going through at this point. But when she told when her execution will be, does somebody just come and just say, we found you guilty?
36:26 Speaker 05 That's pretty much what happens, yeah, is that she's told she's got to prepare herself for her execution. And Catherine at that point seems to compose herself. She's been really distressed, really upset up until this point, and has really struggled to hold it together. But at this point, when she realises that she probably is going to die, she asks for the block to be brought to her rooms so that she can prepare for her execution in private and prepare to make a good end. So. I mean, that's just, how do you get to that point where you realise that you're probably
37:08 Speaker 05 still a teenager and you're gonna die by having your head chopped off? It says something about her strength of character at this point, I suppose, that she decided that if she was gonna die, she wanted to make a good end.
37:23 Kate Lister? And did she? What was her execution? Like, we know that Anne Boleyn, as a favour to her, Henry hired a French executioner with a sword, but no such luck this time.
37:34 Speaker 05 No, none of that for Catherine. She instead is executed with an axe. And like Anne Boleyn, she's executed in the same spot as Anne Boleyn. So she's granted the relative favour of a private execution within the confines of the Tower of London. So the London crowds aren't there to jeer at her, but there are probably a huge number of other people who have been part of Henry's court who come along to watch her die. We are told that she does make a good end. She doesn't say very much. She looks quite weak at this point, and who can blame her?
38:15 Speaker 05 But she does make a relatively good end, a brave end.
38:20 Kate Lister? Was it Lady Rochester was executed immediately afterwards?
38:23 Speaker 05 Lady Rochford, yeah, that's right, Lady Rochford. So she had been the one who had been aiding and helping Catherine with her meetings with Thomas Culpepper. So she is executed immediately after Catherine.
38:37 Kate Lister? Could you even imagine? I mean, the whole thing is so grim, but like, watching your mate have the head cut off and waiting for your turn, it's so barbaric.
38:48 Speaker 05 It's terrible, but it's a weird one because Lady Rochford's motivations for getting herself involved in the first place are really questionable.
38:58 Kate Lister? Yeah, what on earth was she, what on earth was she doing?
39:01 Speaker 05 It's weird, isn't it? She's seen her sister-in-law Anne Boleyn and her own husband executed. Why would you partake in that? It's really weird.
39:10 Kate Lister? I don't know. And what happened to Catherine's body? Was she buried somewhere nice or just, you know, chucked in the bin?
39:18 Speaker 05 Well, she's buried near to her cousin, Anne Boleyn, in the chapel of St Peter, I think, in the Tower of London. So as was Lady Rochford. So they're both there to this day. Two queens buried between two dukes in the chapel there.
39:35 Kate Lister? And how did Henry react to this on the day that she, I'm going to assume that he wasn't there for the execution.
39:42 Speaker 05 No, he wasn't there for the execution. We don't really know a great deal about how he reacts. I think he is greatly saddened by the whole affair and how things have transpired, and finds himself really depressed by the loss of his fifth wife, having shown her so much love and adoration. I think he finds this quite a blow.
40:05 Kate Lister? And Catherine's one of the wives that, that her ghost is said to haunt certain places, isn't it?
40:11 Speaker 05 Yeah, so there is a story that her ghost haunts the so-called Haunted Gallery at Hampton Court. And the story goes that when the news of Catherine's infidelity all came to light at Hampton Court, that Catherine was desperate to reach Henry and so ran down this gallery in an attempt to find him. And she nearly succeeded before Henry's guards dragged her back kicking and screaming. And it's these screams that can reportedly been heard. I have to say, unfortunately, that is definitely a myth. We know that that didn't happen. But she does reportedly haunt the Haunted Gallery and also the Tower. So these two places that
40:54 Speaker 05 are so poignantly associated with her fall and her end, Catherine's spirit supposedly returns to this day to remind us of those times in her life.
41:07 Kate Lister? A final question, and it's a bit of a tricky one because we're looking at it from a modern perspective. But do you think that what happened to her was fair? Do you think she was guilty as charged?
41:17 Speaker 05 I'm going to say no, because she was just a poor naive girl. I think that if any of Henry's wives are deserving of sympathy and we Should be saying, oh, poor so and so. I really think it's Catherine because she was so young. And she was thrust into the spotlight in circumstances that she probably didn't really want to be thrown into. I mean, yeah, I think that she was given a really, really tough time and there was a lot of pressure and expectation set upon her. And I think that when you're that young, when you haven't really had anyone to guide you, you're gonna make mistakes.
42:00 Kate Lister? And you didn't know you were gonna be queen. That was never part of the deal.
42:03 Speaker 05 That was never part of the deal. So I think that unfortunately Catherine was a victim. And it's just sad that she had to pay the price with her head.
42:15 Kate Lister? I do feel very sorry for Catherine. I really do. I think that she was stitched up and the fact that she wasn't given a trial and there was no one there to defend her and she was quite clearly just a kid that was terrified and very confused and and probably looked at his other wives and thought, well, they just did what he wanted. So if I do it too, I'll be okay. So she just said what she thought they wanted to hear and and it all went horrendously wrong. Poor Catherine.
42:41 Speaker 05 Very sad.
42:42 Kate Lister? Up next, we've got Catherine Parr. You must have been looking at this absolute shit show and just thinking, what on earth? So is she even on the scene at this point?
42:57 Speaker 05 Catherine isn't on the scene at this point because she herself is married off elsewhere. So that doesn't happen until later. She doesn't come around until a year or so, a bit more after Catherine Howard's execution.
43:13 Kate Lister? And if you wanna know more about her, then you're gonna have to tune into the next episode. But Nicola, you have been fascinating as you always are. And if people wanna know more about you and your work, where can they find you?
43:24 Speaker 05 They can follow me on my social media platforms, which are X, Instagram and TikTok and Threads, actually. And they can also have a look at my website, nicolatallis.com.
43:35 Kate Lister? Thank you so much. I will see you next time. And for now, Team Catherine.
43:45 Kate Lister? Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Nicola for joining me. And if you like what you heard, well, then don't forget to like, review and follow along, wherever it is you get your podcasts. If you want us to explore a subject, or maybe you just fancied saying hi, then you can email us at [email protected] . Coming next week, we have got the sixth and final episode in our limited series, all about the rather distinguished Catherine Parr, as well as an episode on exploring medieval women, their achievements and what they smelled like. This podcast was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, betwixt the sheets of the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
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