Advice Line with Michelle Wahler of Beyond Yoga

Today's callers: Carrie from Paris wants to turn interest into bookings for her boutique study-abroad programs for adults. Then, Grace from Nashville considers how to re-build relationships with interior designers she may have let down early on in her furniture upholstery business. And Angel from Indiana explores how to translate the emotional appeal of her self-care soap kits into stronger online sales. Plus, Michelle explains why founders don't always need to raise outside capital, and why they shouldn’t go into business with an exit plan. Thank you to the founders of Elective Study Abroad, Grace Ann Upholstery, and Sacred Pause Soap Company for being part of our show. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode—where Guy and former show guests take questions from early-stage founders—leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to Beyond Yoga’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/1d314c06-951a-41a9-a3f2-754fac345268/embed as told by Michelle in 2025. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Annlie Huang. You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com or on Substack. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 1:28Guy Raz?

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• 2:12Guy Raz?

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• 2:51Guy Raz?

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• 4:17Guy Raz?

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• 5:36Guy Raz?

  Hello and welcome to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me today is Michelle Wahler. She's the co-founder and former CEO of Beyond Yoga. Michelle, welcome back to the show.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Hi, Guy. Thank you so much for having me back. I'm so excited to be here.

• 6:17Guy Raz?

  We're excited to have you back. You were, of course, first on the show back in 2025 when you told the story of Beyond Yoga. And it was you and your co-founder, Jody Gruber-Brewski, created this line of yoga apparel for women. And for about 10 years, you grew it really slowly, mainly through wholesalers, yoga studios, and then some department stores. But over time, your brand really started to gain traction, especially because you were one of the only big independent yoga brands. Fast forward 2021. Levi's bought the company for about $400 million. And in 2024, you stepped away from Beyond Yoga. By the way, if you haven't heard this episode, again, I know I always say it, but it is true.

• 6:59Guy Raz?

  It's a fantastic story, and we will put a link to it in the show notes. First of all, since you've last been on, any updates for us? What's been going on in your life?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  So much. You know, I'm still in this mode of celebrating the win. I feel like the build of Beyond Yoga took such a long time and so much out of me. But you know, I'm still savoring this win. And I also, you know, I'm taking this as such a blessing, an opportunity to spend time with my family and my husband in a different way. You know, Jesse was my business partner for the last 10 years at Beyond Yoga. So it's really nice to just to get to spend time and have fun. And now I'm, I feel very fortunate. I have this opportunity to explore what makes me happy outside of Beyond Yoga.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  And I've been able to, you know, kind of choose my own busy and explore. I've been teaching a course on how to create culture at USC. I've created this platform called Quinns Hill, and I use that as an investment and a mentorship platform. And for the most part, I spend my time talking to founders and giving advice. And that's been one of the things that really fills my cup.

• 8:20Guy Raz?

  Yeah. You get a lot of people, probably, and you're investing in businesses, that they're looking at the 20-plus years that you did what you did and trying to figure out how to, you know, do a version of that.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  And, you know, I'm trying to share whatever nuggets of wisdom I have, whether it's, you know, the storytelling, whether it's, you know, sometimes people just want you to listen. Sometimes people need advice. Sometimes people need a connection to somebody who can do, you know, the web programming or the marketing or, you know, help them with inventory. And so that's the fun part. Like, for me, I always kind of wanted to be a matchmaker. That was like my thing when I was in high school and college. And now I feel like I get to be a matchmaker by helping people find the right things they need for their business,

• 9:18Speaker 01

  but also helping entrepreneurs find the right people that they need at the right time.

• 9:25Guy Raz?

  I mean, now that you, again, you have some distance from it and you've looked back on it, we did on the show. What is a piece of startup advice that many people get, and maybe you got, that you think is just a bunch of BS?

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Oh, BS?

• 9:42Speaker 01

  I don't think you need to raise money and I feel like everybody tells you that you have to. I think you need to know what motivates you and what you want your business to be. And no, you don't have to have it all figured out at the beginning, but I think a lot of people like come in it with an exit plan and you don't need to do that. You need to think about what is motivating you? Why are you starting this? And really lean into that and build a sustainable business and not focus on the exit. You know, once people start bringing on investors, that becomes the focus and that changes the trajectory of your company.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  So as long as you can do things on your terms, I say, do it. You don't have to be the next anthropic and you probably won't be, but there's nothing wrong with building a smaller, sustainable business that gives you the freedom to live your life and support yourself and you don't have to chase a mammoth exit.

• 10:47Guy Raz?

  Yeah, fair enough. Michelle, what do you say? Should we, should we take our first call?

• 10:51Speaker 01

  I love it. Let's do it.

• 10:52Guy Raz?

  All right, let's do it. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Michelle Wahler, co-founder of Beyond Yoga. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one line, please, about your business.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Hi, I'm Carrie Angoff. I'm based in Paris, France, and I'm the founder of elective study abroad, which reimagines study abroad for adults.

• 11:10Guy Raz?

  Okay, welcome to the show, Carrie. So, study abroad for adults. I love this. Is that basically what it is? Like, adults can do a study abroad program?

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Right now, we run week-long seminar-style courses for adults of any age. It's mostly, but not only retirees. Each course focuses on a topic that's brought to life in a particular place. So think, architecture and cuisine in southern Spain, or world religions in Istanbul. And each elective is taught by a local instructor who is deeply connected to both the topic and the destination.

• 11:44Guy Raz?

  Wow. Okay, so Carrie, when did you start this business?

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Just last year. It's been about a year and a half.

• 11:49Guy Raz?

  And how has it been going so far? I mean, this sounds amazing. I'm sure every time you describe it to people, they say, I want to go. How's it been going so far?

• 11:58Speaker 02

  It's going well. By the end of this year, we will run five courses with a total of 26 students, which sounds small, but that's the idea. It is a niche market and it is meant to be boutique. The idea is that there's never more than 10 people in a group. And so everyone, especially people who are retired and have different backgrounds and different careers, kind of bring their own perspective on these topics and the discussions can be almost as rich as the seminars themselves.

• 12:32Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I bet. Okay, before we dive in further, what is your question?

• 12:35Speaker 02

  So, people are really enthusiastic about elective. Everyone tells me how much they want to do it. I have strong click-through rates, very specific email inquiries, and regular requests to book calls to learn more about the program. But getting people to go from that excitement about the prospect of doing an elective to actually enrolling has been a challenge. So I've played around with things like deadlines and discounts to get people to book, but neither one of them seems to have a real effect. So I'm looking for advice on better ways to create a real sense of urgency to get people to say, okay, now I want to do this.

• 13:12Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay. Michelle Wahler, I want to bring you in here. You've got some, a little bit more time on your hands. I mean, eight days studying, you know, art and culture and Montpellier, or, you know, the history of the city in Palermo. I mean, it sounds amazing.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Sounds incredible. I absolutely think this is a fantastic idea and so nice to meet you and congratulations on what you've built. So I just want to make sure I understand, because I'm looking at your website right now and I see, I think it's five different courses that are offered multiple times throughout the year.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Yes. By the end of this year, we'll have run one of each of the, of the five that you see. Yeah.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Okay. When I think about this, I'm like, oh, this is, you are selling an experience. You're not selling the class. You're selling an experience. And so when I look at the website, my first image that I'm seeing right now is like a bunch of people standing, looking at a map. And then the second one is a bunch of people in a classroom. And I feel like that could be almost anywhere. And I wonder if there is a way in those first two images to hit people with, like, you know, if it's in Paris, seeing the Eiffel Tower in the background, or something that you just can't get anywhere else in the world.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  And then my other thought is, maybe you just need like a better filtration system before they're getting to you. Like, I see that it just says, like, book a call, right? But maybe you need to have like a couple filtered questions before they get to that call. Like, are you ready to go on a seven-day immersive experience? Are you excited to spend, I would imagine this is expensive, how much does a general course cost?

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Average, right now, is $6,200.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Great. So are you willing to invest $6,000 in a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for yourself? You know, and then are you committed to being a lifetime learner? If you said yes enthusiastically to all of these, let's talk. But like, maybe you can weed out some of those phone calls that aren't translating.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's interesting. Um, I love that idea of kind of leading people down the path a little further. That's not something that I really hadn't thought about at all. The other point that you brought up is interesting because it's something I grapple with a lot. And it's precisely the reason why the Eiffel Tower isn't on the website, is there are a lot of travel opportunities out there. You know, it's a tight market. And I'm really trying to differentiate this as an educational experience and that it's not about going to see the sights. It's about going to build this kind of community of lifelong learners, as you said, and have access to an expert and their connection to the city in a very

• 16:11Speaker 02

  different way. But I, I do worry that maybe something's getting lost when someone is comparing it to other travel opportunities.

• 16:21Guy Raz?

  Carrie, you know, I would suspect, because you're, you're talking to people, they're booking a call with you, and then they're not following up. And I would suspect that there are a variety of reasons why. I mean, I think of Backroads, for example, which we did on the show a few, a few months ago. And Backroads is a huge travel company. People go on it because they want to cycle. And it's, you know, there, you are alone on the bicycle for much of the day, and then you're socializing with the group a little bit here and there. But if you don't love the group, it's okay. It's, in, in this case, you are going to be with a cohort for eight days. It's going to be intensive. Now, this is a self-selecting group. These are people

• 16:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:55Guy Raz?

  who really want to immerse themselves in learning. So there's a pretty good chance that if you are attracted to this, the people who go on it are going to be people you're going to want to be around. But I still think that what's stopping people from like really like hitting the go button is they're, they're thinking, like, you know, I don't know, I won't know anybody, I'm nervous about it. So a couple of things I think you should, you should think about. I think the first thing is, you should sell the cohort.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:23Guy Raz?

  You know, you should say, hey, it's not just the course. It's like, spend eight days with, you know, 10 other people who are just as curious about Renaissance or whatever it is, like, are just as passionate as you are. I also think you want to get testimonials on the site. Like, maybe they're, they're there, I didn't see them, from people like, I was nervous at first, I didn't know anybody, I almost didn't go, I can't believe I even considered not going, it was life-changing, whatever, whatever it is, because I think you really want to lean on that. And then, I also, I think you've got itineraries on here, maybe, but if somebody does a call with you, you may want to send a follow-up email. It's like, hey, just wanted to send you the reading list for this program. Just check this out.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've actually, I'm in the process of updating some of the webpages now and adding in a button to click to request a sample syllabus.

• 18:13Guy Raz?

  Great.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Because I think that's a great way to just increase the communication with the people. And it's giving them something that is not necessarily public, but I'm not going to just throw it out there for anyone. You have to tell me you want it. That's my thinking, anyway.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  That's great. And Guy, you just made me think of something. Um, you know, partnering with some like, high-end bespoke travel agencies, or, you know, some higher-end senior, almost like independent living

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  places would be a good way for you to get a group of people to go. You know, like, my mom lives in an independent community where she's 79 and there's all of these people who she spends time with, and they are all retired, and they're looking for opportunities to do exciting things. But I think it is scary to go by yourself. So maybe if you partner with some of these different communities, you could get four, five people to book at one time. And I think that could be a great top of funnel for you.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, that's a fantastic idea.

• 19:22Guy Raz?

  One last thought I had for you, Carrie. I, and this is a little counterintuitive, because everyone's talking about social media, social media, but I think you might want to experiment with maybe even advertising in a print publication like the New York Review of Books, or the, you know, the London Review of Books, where you have a certain type of person who's older, you know, over 50, who is clearly intellectually curious. You might be able to, you know, with a thousand dollars, not, that's not, not, not consequential, but you could probably buy a small ad for a thousand dollars in one of those publications, and you might be surprised at how many people respond.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Okay, great. Good, good thinking, Guy. Well, I will consider that. It's, it's hard to imagine an ad in a print publication working in this day and age, but that would make me really happy.

• 20:11Guy Raz?

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, elective study abroad, Carrie Angoff. Good luck. Thank you for calling in.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  Thank you both.

• 20:18Guy Raz?

  Thank you. Yeah, I'd love to do that trip. You know, we, so when we travel, my wife, she,

• 20:25Guy Raz?

  she spends a lot of time making like, uh, reading material for me and my kids when we go on trips.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  I mean, I love that.

• 20:32Guy Raz?

  Like very extensive reports and like day-to-day itineraries. And then she spends a lot of time looking for guides. And it's amazing. Like, I've learned so much. So this just looks really cool.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Really cool. I would absolutely try this. And I think it, it seems like a great way to get an experience in a short amount of time, but like become an expert on something. I love it.

• 20:58Guy Raz?

  Yeah. We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your questions right here on the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

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• 26:58Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Michelle Wahler, co-founder of Beyond Yoga. And we are taking your calls. And Michelle, you ready for our next call?

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 27:10Guy Raz?

  All right, let's bring our next caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

• 27:16Speaker 03

  Hi, Guy. I'm Michelle. I'm Grace. I'm calling from Nashville, Tennessee. I own Grace Ann Upholstery, which is a custom upholstery workroom that primarily serves interior designers and residential clients. I reupholster all types of furniture, anything from heirloom pieces like your grandmother's antique chair that needs to be recovered to brand-new furniture that clients just want fresh fabric on.

• 27:37Guy Raz?

  Thanks for calling in, Grace. I definitely need you because I have this beautiful chair I love, and I have to get it reupholstered because my cats love it, too. So anyway, I, I appreciate what you do. Tell me a little bit about the business. When did you start it, and what's the story behind it?

• 27:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it was actually pretty accidental that I came across upholstery. I have a background in art history and decorative arts, and I've always been fascinated by furniture. In early 2020, I was on an art studio tour and walked into an upholsterer's studio. And I had never really thought about upholstery as a craft before, but I was completely fascinated by what she was doing, and went down a rabbit hole and went dictate classes and to study with upholsterers from the UK. And then in 2021, I decided I was gonna start to offer the service to the community in Nashville and at my garage. I was immediately blown away by the demand. And so-

• 28:36Speaker 03

  That's how I launched.

• 28:37Guy Raz?

  Wow. And do you do this all on your own or do you have people who work for you?

• 28:41Speaker 03

  I currently do it all on my own. I am looking to scale the business in the next couple of years and would like to bring on staff, but that is another challenge all in itself is finding the skilled labor for something like this.

• 28:55Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay. And give me a sense of how the business is doing. I mean, it's just you. You know, that's the bottleneck, right? So you can only do one, a few projects at a time. How is your overall business?

• 29:08Speaker 03

  I do it as a side hustle. So I have a full-time job and a young family, but I bring in about $50,000 a year.

• 29:14Guy Raz?

  Okay. Before we dive in further, what is your question for us?

• 29:17Speaker 03

  So my question is, when I launched in 2021, again, I was immediately overwhelmed with the demand and I didn't handle it all so well. I was just, I didn't really want to start a business. I was just doing it as like a side hustle, but there was so much demand. And I, I think I let some people down, didn't communicate great and wasn't a great launch. But then in the last five years, demand has consistently been there. And now that I'm thinking about scaling, I'm thinking back on some of those designers and potential clients that I might have burned in the beginning or let down or fumbled. And I'm wondering if, if I can hire my staff and improve my systems and really build the

• 30:01Speaker 03

  business, is there an opportunity for me to go back to those initial clients and will they work with me?

• 30:07Guy Raz?

  Wow. Okay. Michelle, I want to bring you in here, obviously, because I think, I'm sure early, in early days of Beyond Yoga, you made tons of mistakes and maybe even burned some relationships that you had to, you know, repair, beg, please, give you another chance. I don't, maybe not. Maybe you were perfect from the beginning.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, hi. Very nice to meet you. I'm super into what you do. And I'm just looking at your website. It looks like you make beautiful work. So congratulations on what you're doing. I absolutely think that you can rebuild those relationships. People genuinely respond to people who are being authentic, as long as you own what happened before. And I wouldn't spend too much time on it. Just say, you know, I'm really sorry that we got off on the wrong foot. I wasn't completely ready, but now I am. And tell them why you're ready now and how you can do it. I think a very important

• 31:09Speaker 01

  motto is under promise and over deliver. And that needs to be like written very large on a wall, wherever you are. You also need to have your processes in order because if you reach out and then don't deliver a second time, then I think you're going to have a problem rebuilding those relationships. But I think most people will be willing to give you a second chance. So I would get your operation really streamlined before you start going back and trying to rebuild. And then I'd have a list of who these people are.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  And I would just pick them off kind of one by one, but don't reach out to the second one until you've won the first one back. You know, you want to pick the smallest one first and try and learn because every time you're going to learn a little more and then you don't want to like try and potentially mess up on the biggest account, right? You want to start with the small one, learn what worked, what didn't work, and gradually build from there.

• 32:22Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I think that there's something called the second first impression, right? So, which is what you're asking about. And I, I don't think it's a matter of like asking somebody to trust you. It's like saying, hey, please trust me again. I think it's more about showing them what you do. You can briefly own, you know, what happened and, but I keep it very brief. I mean, I think it's more about, hey, you know, we haven't talked in a while. I'd love for you to see the work I'm doing. And, you know, and, and maybe that would lead to you asking for an opportunity to do a small project first for, for one of these designers. And I agree, completely agree with Michelle, which is you want to over deliver, you want to over communicate, you

• 33:05Guy Raz?

  want to photograph the work, you want to ask for, you know, and I'm sure you're already working with some designers that, that would be happy to provide testimonials on your behalf.

• 33:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is super helpful. And I totally agree with what you're saying. I think it's, it's like, I have the demand and I know I can hire, but it's, should I reach out to these designers before I have the staff or should I get the staff on, in place before I reach back out? It's like a chicken and an egg thing, but I totally agree. I need to, you know, update my website to get a better estimate process going and working on my communication. And I think you're right, getting all of that in place will just lead to a better experience when I reach back out.

• 33:50Guy Raz?

  Agreed.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  And I think that there's also a lot of fun to be had with a surprise and delight. And, you know, making, when, if you're working with a designer, if you are a rock star, you make them look like a rock star. But if you drop the ball, it makes them look equally bad. Right? So anything that you can do to make them seem like an added value to their clients is a win. So if you're making a, you know, beautiful upholstered headboard or a couch or a chair, if you have a little bit of remnant fabric that you can turn into a cool throw pillow that you just give as a little extra, that's something that's going

• 34:36Speaker 01

  to really ingratiate you with that designer. Either they can give it to their client and that's, makes them look good, or maybe they use it for something else and it just provides more value.

• 34:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Grace, I'm curious, just briefly, I mean, and, and this may be revisiting old wounds, I don't know, but is there something that happened specifically or a story you can tell us about how you feel like you let down a previous client?

• 35:02Speaker 03

  I think I was really not great with my timelines. Again, I think I told people I could finish things quicker than I actually could. And interior designers will communicate that timeline to their clients. And then, like you were saying, Michelle, if I don't meet that timeline, then they have to tell that to their client and then they look bad. It was a lot about time management and thinking I could do more than I actually could.

• 35:24Guy Raz?

  And, and, but has anything changed since then?

• 35:27Speaker 03

  So, well, I'm taking less projects. I've realized my capacity. Again, my kids are a little older now. So I'm, you know, my daughter's not a baby anymore that I'm having to run in and take care of. So that, just realization of my own capacity. And then once I can hire, that will give me more capacity.

• 35:47Guy Raz?

  I, I think so too. I mean, the, the minute you know that you, that you, I mean, you'll know when you can reapproach them, but you, you can't take the risk of letting them down again.

• 35:56Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. Yeah. And interior designers bring me a ton of business. I mean, that's why I'm, I'm so eager to win back the ones that I let down at the beginning.

• 36:07Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  And when you're, you know, setting these timelines, you know, I would, first of all, get real methodical about it, like time yourself and really, you know, treat yourself like an assembly line almost. But when you're giving those projections to people, pat it, you know, and pat it by a good amount. I mean, not too much to turn them off completely, but then that's another opportunity to surprise and delight. You call the designer and you've hit that deadline two weeks early. You can say, I just wanted to let you know, we finished your project early. I'm happy to hold it until you're ready, but if you would like, we can get that delivered now. That's such a tremendous win. And then if you haven't

• 36:53Speaker 01

  budgeted properly and you do need a few extra days, you're working towards that two weeks early deadline. So you've built in that buffer for yourself. So you're a winner either way.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  Absolutely. People love getting things earlier than they expected.

• 37:08Guy Raz?

  Yes, they do. Yes, they do. Grace Ref, the company's called Grace Ann Upholstery in Nashville. Good luck. Thanks for calling in.

• 37:15Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thank you both so much.

• 37:17Guy Raz?

  Thank you. Yeah, that is a cool business. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's something that you can't automate. It is an AI-proof business because humans have, or, you know, hands have to do that work. I mean, and if you get enough work, it can be a really big business. I mean, you can do very well. Reupholstering things can be very expensive.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, it's so nice to have like a family heirloom or something like a really meaningful item that you can bring back. Like my husband, his mom had this chair that was in their house and she said she fed him as a baby in this chair. And it was destroyed, but we took it and we got it reupholstered and it's in my son's bedroom now. And I have like so much love for that piece of furniture.

• 38:06Guy Raz?

  That is really cool.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:08Guy Raz?

  That is super cool. I love that. All right. We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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• 39:32Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Michelle Weyler. She's the co-founder of Beyond Yoga and we are ready for our next caller.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Can't wait.

• 39:44Speaker 06

  Hi, Michelle. Hi, Guy. My name is Angel Raymer. I am from Bristol, Indiana, and I am the founder of the Sacred Paws Soap Company, where I make self-care kits to help people think about themselves instead of thinking about everybody else in the most practical way, which is in the shower.

• 40:02Guy Raz?

  Okay, welcome to the show, Angel. Okay, so Sacred Paws Soap, you said self-care kits, and what is, what makes the soap different or unique?

• 40:10Speaker 06

  So in each kit, I have a soap and a tumbled stone inside of the soap. And each stone is correlated to a type of feeling, a type of emotion. So a rose quartz stone is for love, amethyst is for calm, green adventuring is for luck, things of that nature. And so a lot of these are actually based on certain timelines of my life. So when I decided to do this business, I did a tiger's eye that gave me kind of the courage. And each box comes with a different affirmation tied to the type of stone that is inside of your soap. And so as you're washing, the soap will actually disintegrate and the stone

• 40:52Speaker 06

  will fall into your exfoliating bag. And it's an experience that you get to have for yourself in the shower.

• 41:00Guy Raz?

  Okay, got it. Okay. And how long has the business been going?

• 41:02Speaker 06

  Since 2025 in December.

• 41:05Guy Raz?

  And it's still early days, you know, we're still in 2026. But how have you been doing so far?

• 41:11Speaker 06

  I'm doing okay. I go to vendor markets once a month and I have five kids and then I work full-time in a factory. So I'm doing the best that I can. I make the soap and it takes six weeks to cure and get around. So I have to kind of time everything. The kind of, when I go to the markets, people love the idea. I can go to metaphysical shows, I can go to oddity conventions, I'm going to go to a music festival, to a witches ball. But that kind of leads into my question.

• 41:44Guy Raz?

  Okay, please.

• 41:45Speaker 06

  So when I go to these markets, everybody loves the idea. Oh, that's so cool. This is so neat. I've never seen anything like this before, which is great. But online, I'm not really able to sell that emotion or tell my story. And that really puts a damper on any type of online sales or anything like that. So my question is, is how can I emotionally sell something while I'm not there?

• 42:12Guy Raz?

  To explain. Okay, okay, great. Michelle, I want to bring you in here. Thoughts, questions, ideas?

• 42:19Speaker 01

  So many thoughts, so many questions. Lovely to meet you. Your products are beautiful.

• 42:25Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Like, this is, like, I'm looking at your website right now, and this is gorgeous. And your price points are, you know, very achievable.

• 42:37Guy Raz?

  You're saying $30, $35 to $38 for a kit, something like that?

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I could see this going so many places. I feel like I could see this at Whole Foods and Erawan and all of those things. But it, it sounds like you have an extremely full plate with a family of five, a full-time job and all of those things. So my first thought for you is how can I help you make money while you are taking care of your family and at your job? And that would be if you, if your website was cranking. And I think your website has a lot of potential. But I'm completely missing the story on the

• 43:22Speaker 01

  website. And even, I just tried to click on the about and it didn't even give me anything. So I think that would be like the first thing I would absolutely focus on today. Like, get your story out there. And I think that this is not only a great moment to like buy something for myself, but I'm looking at this as like such a fantastic gifting opportunity. So, you know, right off the bat, I'm looking at this, it says, give yourself a moment. I'd be curious to see if you used some language about, you know, some way of gifting it. Give yourself a moment, or give, give this to someone who deserves an extra moment. Sometimes

• 44:06Speaker 01

  we have a hard time taking care of ourselves, but an easier time taking care of the ones we love, right? Then I'm looking at this and everything says self-care kit, self-care kit. I want it to say rose quartz or tiger and, you know, and then maybe next to it, tell me that this one is for, you know, love or energy or whatever the case may be. But like, right now, the way it's structured is I'd have to click in for each one of them.

• 44:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's really difficult because since I work full-time, I have to basically kind of save for the next big thing that I'm able to do. So that tells me that, okay, so my website is something that I need to save to get a, you know, not necessarily professional, but yeah, professional to kind of take care of?

• 45:03Guy Raz?

  I'm not sure you have to spend a whole lot of money, Angel. I agree with Michelle. I mean, I think it's about, I think that what you want to emphasize is the ritual that you're selling, right? You're, I remember, when I was a kid, there's a commercial on TV, it was like Calgon, take me away, or something like that, right? It was like shampoo.

• 45:22Guy Raz?

  And, and it was, it was a woman in a bathtub shampooing her hair and then she'd be in like the Caribbean, you know? I love that concept, that, that wherever you are for five minutes, this product can take you there. And I would, I would think about really leaning into that. It doesn't cost anything. It's just a matter of changing how you, how you put that on your site and how you use that to tell your story across channels.

• 45:48Speaker 06

  Okay, that's great. Thank you.

• 45:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Any other thoughts, Michelle?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  You know, I, I think that because this is a, a product that people are going to put on their skin, I think having some information about the, you know, whether it's natural ingredients or, you know, you're trying to, you're trying to tell a story on your website, you're trying to gain trust, and you're trying to showcase product. And when all three of those things are working, that's when you convert a sale. So I want you to, you know, showcase what are some of those amazing pillars and why should I, why should I trust this product and put it on my skin? And if you can have some of that

• 46:35Speaker 01

  visible right off the bat, I think that would be really helpful, too, in converting more sales.

• 46:43Guy Raz?

  Hundred percent. Yeah. Angel Raymer, Sacred Paws Soap, thank you for calling in. Good luck.

• 46:48Speaker 06

  Thank you guys so much.

• 46:50Guy Raz?

  Thanks so much, yeah. Michelle, before I let you go, and a question I ask everybody who comes on to join me, if you were to go back to, to when you were starting out, you know, knowing what you know about the business and how to run it and all the scars that came with running it for 20-plus years, what, what would have been helpful for you to know when you were starting out that you now know?

• 47:10Speaker 01

  You know, one thing I think is really important is to remember why you started and to stay focused on that. I think part of being an entrepreneur is always seeing the next opportunity around every corner. And sometimes you can bounce from like one thing to the next, to the next. And for me, I was very fortunate, I had, I had Jesse, my husband, and who ultimately was my, my partner. In the end, he was always saying to me, you know, are you on every butt in every class you go into? And if the answer is no, then please don't talk to me about swimwear. You know, you need to be the best,

• 47:52Speaker 01

  the number one activewear legging for women of all shapes and sizes. And until you have done that, please do not move on to, you know, the next big idea. And I think that kept me very focused and grounded. So I want to be that reminder for other people. You know, what you say no to is almost more important than what you say yes to. So don't forget to say no.

• 48:21Guy Raz?

  I love that. This is Michelle Wahler. She's a co-founder and former CEO of Beyond Yoga. Michelle, thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

• 48:31Guy Raz?

  And by the way, if you haven't heard Michelle's original episode on How I Built This of Beyond Yoga, please go back and check it out. It's a great story. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. And here's one of my favorite moments from that episode.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  I went to visit one of our fabric vendors and we were just going through all these fabric samples. And I was like, what is this? And I remember my sales rep, she was like, oh, Michelle, you don't want that. That's way too expensive. And I was like, no, I need this. What is this? It's fantastic and it feels really good. And I was like, I don't care how expensive it is. This is what everybody is going to want to put on their body.

• 49:14Guy Raz?

  Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues you are currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298. You can leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And by the way, we'll put all of this in the podcast description as well. This episode

• 49:55Guy Raz?

  was produced by Carla Estevez with editing by John Isabella. Our engineer was An Li Huang. Our music was composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, J.C. Howard, Casey Herman, Elaine Coats, Chris Messini, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, Sam Paulson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built This.

• 50:25Guy Raz?

  Thanks again to Engine for their support. If your business is growing and your team is traveling, Engine makes it simple and saves you money doing it. 33,000 businesses have joined. Now it's your turn. engine.com/xyz.